Re: State of the Apache NetBeans installers

[Laszlo Kishalmi]

Improved the Linux Section.

On 2/2/19 7:08 AM, Geertjan Wielenga wrote:

Hi all,

Tried to gather different threads together in the below to get a thorough
overview of where and why we are where we are:

https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/State+of+the+Apache+NetBeans+Installers

Thanks,

Gj



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Re: State of the Apache NetBeans installers

[Emilian Bold]

Hello,

I can share the CoolBeans installers but they are no big deal, not
sure if they are good enough for NetBeans...

My macOS DMG uses a variation of the Carl J. Mosca script does
(Carl's script has a bug as it assumes the location never changes; I
would make a PR if I wouldn't have changed so much stuff).

My Windows installer uses InnoSetup and has again a very basic script,
based on what Stephen Cumminger shared on the mailing list a while
back. It's very basic, but gets the job done of copying the files,
creating shortcuts and providing an uninstaller.

I believe these are actually enough for end users, but NetBeans always
had a much more fancy installer, with Glassfish and many other things.
Especially for macOS I always wanted a clean drag-and-drop DMG, no
package with a wizard.

I think it's important that both the DMG and the EXE are digitally signed.
Windows particularly has very scary warning messages for unsigned EXEs.

--emi



On Sat, Feb 2, 2019 at 5:14 PM Geertjan Wielenga
 wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> Tried to gather different threads together in the below to get a thorough
> overview of where and why we are where we are:
>
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/State+of+the+Apache+NetBeans+Installers
>
> Thanks,
>
> Gj

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Re: State of the Apache NetBeans installers

[Carl Mosca]

Hi Emi,

Which script are you referring to?  The original install.sh or the
install-custom.sh?

I have not looked at either in a while but I think we had some nice
contributions one of which may have addressed the issue to which I think
you might be referring.

Having said that, I agree that it would be nice to have something like what
an end user might expect.  I don't recall all the issues with the pkg vs.
dmg but I do think such a solution would be much nicer.

Still, willing to help.

Regards,
Carl

On Sat, Feb 2, 2019 at 11:58 AM Emilian Bold  wrote:

> Hello,
>
> I can share the CoolBeans installers but they are no big deal, not
> sure if they are good enough for NetBeans...
>
> My macOS DMG uses a variation of the Carl J. Mosca script does
> (Carl's script has a bug as it assumes the location never changes; I
> would make a PR if I wouldn't have changed so much stuff).
>
> My Windows installer uses InnoSetup and has again a very basic script,
> based on what Stephen Cumminger shared on the mailing list a while
> back. It's very basic, but gets the job done of copying the files,
> creating shortcuts and providing an uninstaller.
>
> I believe these are actually enough for end users, but NetBeans always
> had a much more fancy installer, with Glassfish and many other things.
> Especially for macOS I always wanted a clean drag-and-drop DMG, no
> package with a wizard.
>
> I think it's important that both the DMG and the EXE are digitally signed.
> Windows particularly has very scary warning messages for unsigned EXEs.
>
> --emi
>
>
>
> On Sat, Feb 2, 2019 at 5:14 PM Geertjan Wielenga
>  wrote:
> >
> > Hi all,
> >
> > Tried to gather different threads together in the below to get a thorough
> > overview of where and why we are where we are:
> >
> >
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/State+of+the+Apache+NetBeans+Installers
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Gj
>
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
>
> For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
>
>
>
>

-- 
Carl J. Mosca

Re: State of the Apache NetBeans installers

[Emilian Bold]

Oh, I saw this comment on
https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/State+of+the+Apache+NetBeans+Installers

This debate was had once about 14 years ago - and the decision to go with
> .pkg installers on Mac OSX was made for this reason: There were a lot of
> "NetBeans is unusably slow" reports on OSX.
> The reason? A LOT of users never unpacked the .app - they were running it
> directly from the mounted, compressed .dmg image. It turns out that's not
> that unusual.
> Random access Java classloading does not play nicely AT ALL with the
> compression used for .dmg images.
> I strongly recommend not repeating that mistake.


I believe NetBeans should detect if it's being executed from a DMG and warn
the user about it. I did have an user with an utterly broken install due to
AppTranslocation.

Still, using a DMG is the way to go imho.

--emi


On Sat, Feb 2, 2019 at 6:32 PM Emilian Bold  wrote:

> Hello,
>
> I can share the CoolBeans installers but they are no big deal, not
> sure if they are good enough for NetBeans...
>
> My macOS DMG uses a variation of the Carl J. Mosca script does
> (Carl's script has a bug as it assumes the location never changes; I
> would make a PR if I wouldn't have changed so much stuff).
>
> My Windows installer uses InnoSetup and has again a very basic script,
> based on what Stephen Cumminger shared on the mailing list a while
> back. It's very basic, but gets the job done of copying the files,
> creating shortcuts and providing an uninstaller.
>
> I believe these are actually enough for end users, but NetBeans always
> had a much more fancy installer, with Glassfish and many other things.
> Especially for macOS I always wanted a clean drag-and-drop DMG, no
> package with a wizard.
>
> I think it's important that both the DMG and the EXE are digitally signed.
> Windows particularly has very scary warning messages for unsigned EXEs.
>
> --emi
>
>
>
> On Sat, Feb 2, 2019 at 5:14 PM Geertjan Wielenga
>  wrote:
> >
> > Hi all,
> >
> > Tried to gather different threads together in the below to get a thorough
> > overview of where and why we are where we are:
> >
> >
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/State+of+the+Apache+NetBeans+Installers
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Gj
>

Re: State of the Apache NetBeans installers

[Emilian Bold]

> Which script are you referring to?  The original install.sh or the
install-custom.sh?
> I have not looked at either in a while but I think we had some nice
contributions one of which may have addressed the issue to which I think
you might be referring.

I think it's the `ln -s`. I did open
https://github.com/carljmosca/netbeans-macos-bundle/issues/25 right now.
Try to move the app and see if it still launches, it did not for me when I
tested last year.

> Having said that, I agree that it would be nice to have something like
what
an end user might expect.  I don't recall all the issues with the pkg vs.
dmg but I do think such a solution would be much nicer.

Yes, DMG is much nicer.

--emi


On Sat, Feb 2, 2019 at 7:05 PM Carl Mosca  wrote:

> Hi Emi,
>
> Which script are you referring to?  The original install.sh or the
> install-custom.sh?
>
> I have not looked at either in a while but I think we had some nice
> contributions one of which may have addressed the issue to which I think
> you might be referring.
>
> Having said that, I agree that it would be nice to have something like what
> an end user might expect.  I don't recall all the issues with the pkg vs.
> dmg but I do think such a solution would be much nicer.
>
> Still, willing to help.
>
> Regards,
> Carl
>
> On Sat, Feb 2, 2019 at 11:58 AM Emilian Bold 
> wrote:
>
> > Hello,
> >
> > I can share the CoolBeans installers but they are no big deal, not
> > sure if they are good enough for NetBeans...
> >
> > My macOS DMG uses a variation of the Carl J. Mosca script does
> > (Carl's script has a bug as it assumes the location never changes; I
> > would make a PR if I wouldn't have changed so much stuff).
> >
> > My Windows installer uses InnoSetup and has again a very basic script,
> > based on what Stephen Cumminger shared on the mailing list a while
> > back. It's very basic, but gets the job done of copying the files,
> > creating shortcuts and providing an uninstaller.
> >
> > I believe these are actually enough for end users, but NetBeans always
> > had a much more fancy installer, with Glassfish and many other things.
> > Especially for macOS I always wanted a clean drag-and-drop DMG, no
> > package with a wizard.
> >
> > I think it's important that both the DMG and the EXE are digitally
> signed.
> > Windows particularly has very scary warning messages for unsigned EXEs.
> >
> > --emi
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sat, Feb 2, 2019 at 5:14 PM Geertjan Wielenga
> >  wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi all,
> > >
> > > Tried to gather different threads together in the below to get a
> thorough
> > > overview of where and why we are where we are:
> > >
> > >
> >
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/State+of+the+Apache+NetBeans+Installers
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > >
> > > Gj
> >
> > -
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> >
> > For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> --
> Carl J. Mosca
>

Re: State of the Apache NetBeans installers

[Carl Mosca]

Ah, now I recall that.  I have not had an occasion to move NetBeans but I
did just make a change which might address this (and hopefully not break
anything).

:)

Carl

On Sat, Feb 2, 2019 at 12:30 PM Emilian Bold  wrote:

> > Which script are you referring to?  The original install.sh or the
> install-custom.sh?
> > I have not looked at either in a while but I think we had some nice
> contributions one of which may have addressed the issue to which I think
> you might be referring.
>
> I think it's the `ln -s`. I did open
> https://github.com/carljmosca/netbeans-macos-bundle/issues/25 right now.
> Try to move the app and see if it still launches, it did not for me when I
> tested last year.
>
> > Having said that, I agree that it would be nice to have something like
> what
> an end user might expect.  I don't recall all the issues with the pkg vs.
> dmg but I do think such a solution would be much nicer.
>
> Yes, DMG is much nicer.
>
> --emi
>
>
> On Sat, Feb 2, 2019 at 7:05 PM Carl Mosca  wrote:
>
> > Hi Emi,
> >
> > Which script are you referring to?  The original install.sh or the
> > install-custom.sh?
> >
> > I have not looked at either in a while but I think we had some nice
> > contributions one of which may have addressed the issue to which I think
> > you might be referring.
> >
> > Having said that, I agree that it would be nice to have something like
> what
> > an end user might expect.  I don't recall all the issues with the pkg vs.
> > dmg but I do think such a solution would be much nicer.
> >
> > Still, willing to help.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Carl
> >
> > On Sat, Feb 2, 2019 at 11:58 AM Emilian Bold 
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Hello,
> > >
> > > I can share the CoolBeans installers but they are no big deal, not
> > > sure if they are good enough for NetBeans...
> > >
> > > My macOS DMG uses a variation of the Carl J. Mosca script does
> > > (Carl's script has a bug as it assumes the location never changes; I
> > > would make a PR if I wouldn't have changed so much stuff).
> > >
> > > My Windows installer uses InnoSetup and has again a very basic script,
> > > based on what Stephen Cumminger shared on the mailing list a while
> > > back. It's very basic, but gets the job done of copying the files,
> > > creating shortcuts and providing an uninstaller.
> > >
> > > I believe these are actually enough for end users, but NetBeans always
> > > had a much more fancy installer, with Glassfish and many other things.
> > > Especially for macOS I always wanted a clean drag-and-drop DMG, no
> > > package with a wizard.
> > >
> > > I think it's important that both the DMG and the EXE are digitally
> > signed.
> > > Windows particularly has very scary warning messages for unsigned EXEs.
> > >
> > > --emi
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Sat, Feb 2, 2019 at 5:14 PM Geertjan Wielenga
> > >  wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hi all,
> > > >
> > > > Tried to gather different threads together in the below to get a
> > thorough
> > > > overview of where and why we are where we are:
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/State+of+the+Apache+NetBeans+Installers
> > > >
> > > > Thanks,
> > > >
> > > > Gj
> > >
> > > -
> > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> > > For additional commands, e-mail:
> dev-h...@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> > >
> > > For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> > > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> > --
> > Carl J. Mosca
> >
>


-- 
Carl J. Mosca

Re: State of the Apache NetBeans installers

[Neil C Smith]

On Sat, 2 Feb 2019, 17:58 Emilian Bold  I can share the CoolBeans installers but they are no big deal, not
> sure if they are good enough for NetBeans...
>

Well, the key thing as far as I remember is that you're bundling the JDK?
Whereas we need to provide an option to install a JRE/JDK as part of the
installation process. Or do you have that?

Best wishes,

Neil

>

Re: State of the Apache NetBeans installers

[Emilian Bold]

> Well, the key thing as far as I remember is that you're bundling the JDK?

Correct.

> Whereas we need to provide an option to install a JRE/JDK as part of the
installation process. Or do you have that?

I don't have / need that (since I can just bundle the JDK, no?).

For starters just relying on users manually installing / having Java would
probably do.

(Although, the trend is for Java to stop being something users install...)

--emi


On Sat, Feb 2, 2019 at 9:33 PM Neil C Smith  wrote:

> On Sat, 2 Feb 2019, 17:58 Emilian Bold 
> > I can share the CoolBeans installers but they are no big deal, not
> > sure if they are good enough for NetBeans...
> >
>
> Well, the key thing as far as I remember is that you're bundling the JDK?
> Whereas we need to provide an option to install a JRE/JDK as part of the
> installation process. Or do you have that?
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Neil
>
> >
>

Re: State of the Apache NetBeans installers

[Neil C Smith]

On Sat, 2 Feb 2019, 20:50 Emilian Bold  > Whereas we need to provide an option to install a JRE/JDK as part of the
> installation process. Or do you have that?
>
> I don't have / need that (since I can just bundle the JDK, no?).
>

Yes. Just wondered.

>
> For starters just relying on users manually installing / having Java would
> probably do.
>
> (Although, the trend is for Java to stop being something users install...)
>

Absolutely! This thread came out of a conversation at FOSDEM about what we
can and can't do in Apache, considering that changing trend, to be more
user friendly. A non-Java NetBeans installer that can optionally download a
JDK and configure it for the IDE (not necessarily installed globally) might
be something we can explore.

Best wishes,

Neil

>

Re: State of the Apache NetBeans installers

[Emilian Bold]

> A non-Java NetBeans installer that can optionally download a
JDK and configure it for the IDE (not necessarily installed globally) might
be something we can explore.

It's somewhat odd to download a big installer then have the installer
download the big JDK... but it's the best we can do and probably a
good-enough solution for users.

> This thread came out of a conversation at FOSDEM about what we
can and can't do in Apache, considering that changing trend, to be more
user friendly.

If Apache gets more lenient / clear on bundling I could also create a
'vanilla NetBeans' package with no bits changed except the additional JDK.
Although I suspect the general idea is for Oracle or Amazon to do some
JDK+NetBeans bundle release and not smaller projects.

--emi


On Sat, Feb 2, 2019 at 10:34 PM Neil C Smith  wrote:

> On Sat, 2 Feb 2019, 20:50 Emilian Bold 
> > > Whereas we need to provide an option to install a JRE/JDK as part of
> the
> > installation process. Or do you have that?
> >
> > I don't have / need that (since I can just bundle the JDK, no?).
> >
>
> Yes. Just wondered.
>
> >
> > For starters just relying on users manually installing / having Java
> would
> > probably do.
> >
> > (Although, the trend is for Java to stop being something users
> install...)
> >
>
> Absolutely! This thread came out of a conversation at FOSDEM about what we
> can and can't do in Apache, considering that changing trend, to be more
> user friendly. A non-Java NetBeans installer that can optionally download a
> JDK and configure it for the IDE (not necessarily installed globally) might
> be something we can explore.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Neil
>
> >
>

Re: State of the Apache NetBeans installers

[Wade Chandler]

On Sat, Feb 2, 2019, 15:43 Emilian Bold <

>
> If Apache gets more lenient / clear on bundling I could also create a
> 'vanilla NetBeans' package with no bits changed except the additional JDK.
> Although I suspect the general idea is for Oracle or Amazon to do some
> JDK+NetBeans bundle release and not smaller projects.
>

What does this mean necessarily? My understanding is you could create a
bundler that is clear to spell out it is a bundler, and is just installing
"Apache NetBeans + AdoptOpenJDK" as an example as long as it is just a
redistribution of unchanged parts.

Too, it seems we could provide an installer that downloads the JDK for the
end user, but that also can create and output a bundled installer for that
end user; they would be building and distributing it. They could then place
that on any server they wish, that isn't Apache's, and share that; even use
it to create their Enterprise installers. We could even have that allow all
headless creation to allow it to work in scripted setups such as something
using Ansible. We could even then have Oracle and Amazon use that, but
certainly others like Pivotal or even an arrangement with AdoptOpenJDK to
distribute could be made.

Thanks

Wade

Re: State of the Apache NetBeans installers

[Emilian Bold]

> My understanding is you could create a
bundler that is clear to spell out it is a bundler, and is just installing
"Apache NetBeans + AdoptOpenJDK" as an example as long as it is just a
redistribution of unchanged parts.

I haven't seen this spelled out as such, although it's been mentioned like
this on mailing list and on issues.

Apache's trademark rules are actually quite clear, but in practice things
might be different. Linux distros obviously distribute Apache stuff under
Apache trademark names and they even patch them in various way so it's not
even an Apache release that gets shown there, but a derivative work. Yet,
everything is well.

Perhaps I should just try making a bundle and publish it. See what happens
then.

> We could even then have Oracle and Amazon use that, but
certainly others like Pivotal or even an arrangement with AdoptOpenJDK to
distribute could be made.

I doubt AdoptOpenJDK would get into favouring an IDE. But I get your idea

--emi


On Sat, Feb 2, 2019 at 11:57 PM Wade Chandler 
wrote:

> On Sat, Feb 2, 2019, 15:43 Emilian Bold <
>
> >
> > If Apache gets more lenient / clear on bundling I could also create a
> > 'vanilla NetBeans' package with no bits changed except the additional
> JDK.
> > Although I suspect the general idea is for Oracle or Amazon to do some
> > JDK+NetBeans bundle release and not smaller projects.
> >
>
> What does this mean necessarily? My understanding is you could create a
> bundler that is clear to spell out it is a bundler, and is just installing
> "Apache NetBeans + AdoptOpenJDK" as an example as long as it is just a
> redistribution of unchanged parts.
>
> Too, it seems we could provide an installer that downloads the JDK for the
> end user, but that also can create and output a bundled installer for that
> end user; they would be building and distributing it. They could then place
> that on any server they wish, that isn't Apache's, and share that; even use
> it to create their Enterprise installers. We could even have that allow all
> headless creation to allow it to work in scripted setups such as something
> using Ansible. We could even then have Oracle and Amazon use that, but
> certainly others like Pivotal or even an arrangement with AdoptOpenJDK to
> distribute could be made.
>
> Thanks
>
> Wade
>

Re: State of the Apache NetBeans installers

[Scott Palmer]

Use a .zip and the run from DMG problem goes away. 
I don’t think there should be any code to detect if NB is running from a DMG. 
It isn’t worth it when the problem is so easily avoided. 

Scott

> On Feb 2, 2019, at 12:25 PM, Emilian Bold  wrote:
> 
> Oh, I saw this comment on
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/State+of+the+Apache+NetBeans+Installers
> 
> This debate was had once about 14 years ago - and the decision to go with
>> .pkg installers on Mac OSX was made for this reason: There were a lot of
>> "NetBeans is unusably slow" reports on OSX.
>> The reason? A LOT of users never unpacked the .app - they were running it
>> directly from the mounted, compressed .dmg image. It turns out that's not
>> that unusual.
>> Random access Java classloading does not play nicely AT ALL with the
>> compression used for .dmg images.
>> I strongly recommend not repeating that mistake.
> 
> 
> I believe NetBeans should detect if it's being executed from a DMG and warn
> the user about it. I did have an user with an utterly broken install due to
> AppTranslocation.
> 
> Still, using a DMG is the way to go imho.
> 
> --emi
> 
> 
>> On Sat, Feb 2, 2019 at 6:32 PM Emilian Bold  wrote:
>> 
>> Hello,
>> 
>> I can share the CoolBeans installers but they are no big deal, not
>> sure if they are good enough for NetBeans...
>> 
>> My macOS DMG uses a variation of the Carl J. Mosca script does
>> (Carl's script has a bug as it assumes the location never changes; I
>> would make a PR if I wouldn't have changed so much stuff).
>> 
>> My Windows installer uses InnoSetup and has again a very basic script,
>> based on what Stephen Cumminger shared on the mailing list a while
>> back. It's very basic, but gets the job done of copying the files,
>> creating shortcuts and providing an uninstaller.
>> 
>> I believe these are actually enough for end users, but NetBeans always
>> had a much more fancy installer, with Glassfish and many other things.
>> Especially for macOS I always wanted a clean drag-and-drop DMG, no
>> package with a wizard.
>> 
>> I think it's important that both the DMG and the EXE are digitally signed.
>> Windows particularly has very scary warning messages for unsigned EXEs.
>> 
>> --emi
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Sat, Feb 2, 2019 at 5:14 PM Geertjan Wielenga
>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi all,
>>> 
>>> Tried to gather different threads together in the below to get a thorough
>>> overview of where and why we are where we are:
>>> 
>>> 
>> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/State+of+the+Apache+NetBeans+Installers
>>> 
>>> Thanks,
>>> 
>>> Gj
>> 

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Re: State of the Apache NetBeans installers

[Emilian Bold]

What I generally avoid on macOS are .pkg installers. I prefer apps that run
from the start and don't need installing. DMG is perfect for that. A ZIP
would also do I guess although it doesn't feel macOS-native.

In 14 years Macs CPUs have gotten much better and NetBeans has stagnated in
terms of system demands. So I doubt the impact is that much even if the IDE
was executed straight from the DMG.

--emi


On Sun, Feb 3, 2019 at 2:06 AM Scott Palmer  wrote:

> Use a .zip and the run from DMG problem goes away.
> I don’t think there should be any code to detect if NB is running from a
> DMG. It isn’t worth it when the problem is so easily avoided.
>
> Scott
>
> > On Feb 2, 2019, at 12:25 PM, Emilian Bold 
> wrote:
> >
> > Oh, I saw this comment on
> >
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/State+of+the+Apache+NetBeans+Installers
> >
> > This debate was had once about 14 years ago - and the decision to go with
> >> .pkg installers on Mac OSX was made for this reason: There were a lot of
> >> "NetBeans is unusably slow" reports on OSX.
> >> The reason? A LOT of users never unpacked the .app - they were running
> it
> >> directly from the mounted, compressed .dmg image. It turns out that's
> not
> >> that unusual.
> >> Random access Java classloading does not play nicely AT ALL with the
> >> compression used for .dmg images.
> >> I strongly recommend not repeating that mistake.
> >
> >
> > I believe NetBeans should detect if it's being executed from a DMG and
> warn
> > the user about it. I did have an user with an utterly broken install due
> to
> > AppTranslocation.
> >
> > Still, using a DMG is the way to go imho.
> >
> > --emi
> >
> >
> >> On Sat, Feb 2, 2019 at 6:32 PM Emilian Bold 
> wrote:
> >>
> >> Hello,
> >>
> >> I can share the CoolBeans installers but they are no big deal, not
> >> sure if they are good enough for NetBeans...
> >>
> >> My macOS DMG uses a variation of the Carl J. Mosca script does
> >> (Carl's script has a bug as it assumes the location never changes; I
> >> would make a PR if I wouldn't have changed so much stuff).
> >>
> >> My Windows installer uses InnoSetup and has again a very basic script,
> >> based on what Stephen Cumminger shared on the mailing list a while
> >> back. It's very basic, but gets the job done of copying the files,
> >> creating shortcuts and providing an uninstaller.
> >>
> >> I believe these are actually enough for end users, but NetBeans always
> >> had a much more fancy installer, with Glassfish and many other things.
> >> Especially for macOS I always wanted a clean drag-and-drop DMG, no
> >> package with a wizard.
> >>
> >> I think it's important that both the DMG and the EXE are digitally
> signed.
> >> Windows particularly has very scary warning messages for unsigned EXEs.
> >>
> >> --emi
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Sat, Feb 2, 2019 at 5:14 PM Geertjan Wielenga
> >>  wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Hi all,
> >>>
> >>> Tried to gather different threads together in the below to get a
> thorough
> >>> overview of where and why we are where we are:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/State+of+the+Apache+NetBeans+Installers
> >>>
> >>> Thanks,
> >>>
> >>> Gj
> >>
>
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Re: State of the Apache NetBeans installers

[Mark Phipps]

Hello,

My priority (and I am sure that of many others) is to be able to provide 
an installer for a NetBeans Platform application on Windows, Mac and 
Linux. By destroying Java Web Start, Oracle has decreed that 
applications should be delivered with their own bundled JRE.


Whatever solutions you decide are best for installing NetBeans IDE 
itself, application providers need a way to bundle a JRE within the 
installer. I presume that everyone is still minded to use the NBI 
framework to accomplish this?


I refer to this thread, where I think updates still need to be rebuilt 
to get NBI working with JDK 11: 
https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/a75960078f8bfcd0151ad3efd87ce5d9715ed6dc751deeea71de179a@%3Cdev.netbeans.apache.org%3E


Regards
Mark

On 02/02/2019 15:06, Geertjan Wielenga wrote:

Hi all,

Tried to gather different threads together in the below to get a thorough
overview of where and why we are where we are:

https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/State+of+the+Apache+NetBeans+Installers

Thanks,

Gj



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Re: State of the Apache NetBeans installers

[Neil C Smith]

On Mon, 4 Feb 2019, 16:15 Mark Phipps  Whatever solutions you decide are best for installing NetBeans IDE
> itself, application providers need a way to bundle a JRE within the
> installer. I presume that everyone is still minded to use the NBI
> framework to accomplish this?
>

Personally, not in the slightest! I made a move on Linux to .deb (soon to
be AppImage or Snap), then on macOS to app bundle, and most recently
InnoSetup on Windows about a year ago. Bundling is a lot easier when the
installation process itself doesn't require the JRE. And I've barely
scratched the surface of InnoSetup's features but already got numerous
things that were more difficult to achieve via NBI.

A question back would actually be, for you why NBI?

Best wishes,

Neil

>

Re: State of the Apache NetBeans installers

[Mark Phipps]

Hi Neil,

It is NBI for several reasons:

1. afaik it's the way that NetBeans IDE up to 8.2 was installed - why 
can't it be used for 10.0, 11.0 ?

2. part of the NB code base
3. baked into Ant - right click on an Ant-based NB Platform project and 
choose "Generate installers"
4. baked into the nbm-maven plugin. I have invested a huge amount of 
time and effort working out how to tune the generation of installers 
from our maven/ant build system.
5. therefore all runs on linux, don't need Windows to generate a Windows 
(or Mac) installer.


I don't want to use yet another technology like Innosetup (good as it 
may be), because I don't run any of my build pipeline on Windows. I 
don't want to learn Pascal scripting either.


I believe that NBI has legs, at least as a way for NB Platform 
applications to fill the gap left by the demise of Java Web Start. As I 
have said before, I don't understand well how the NBI system works (yet 
- I am trying), but I can't see any good reason why it should be abandoned.


Regards
Mark

On 05/02/2019 08:38, Neil C Smith wrote:

On Mon, 4 Feb 2019, 16:15 Mark Phipps 
Whatever solutions you decide are best for installing NetBeans IDE
itself, application providers need a way to bundle a JRE within the
installer. I presume that everyone is still minded to use the NBI
framework to accomplish this?


Personally, not in the slightest! I made a move on Linux to .deb (soon to
be AppImage or Snap), then on macOS to app bundle, and most recently
InnoSetup on Windows about a year ago. Bundling is a lot easier when the
installation process itself doesn't require the JRE. And I've barely
scratched the surface of InnoSetup's features but already got numerous
things that were more difficult to achieve via NBI.

A question back would actually be, for you why NBI?

Best wishes,

Neil



www.sucdenfinancial.com

Sucden Financial Limited, Plantation Place South, 60 Great Tower Street, London 
EC3R 5AZ
Telephone +44 203 207 5000

Registered in England no. 1095841
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This email, including any files transmitted with it, is confidential and may be privileged. It may be read, copied and used only by the intended recipient. 
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Re: State of the Apache NetBeans installers

[Neil C Smith]

On Sat, 2 Feb 2019 at 22:57, Wade Chandler  wrote:
> Too, it seems we could provide an installer that downloads the JDK for the
> end user, but that also can create and output a bundled installer for that
> end user; they would be building and distributing it. They could then place
> that on any server they wish, that isn't Apache's, and share that; even use
> it to create their Enterprise installers.

That's a really interesting idea!  Obviously other people can already
build bundled installers, but as an Apache project we can't do so
directly.  But we should be OK with an installer that can do this as
an optional step on the user side.  Now if that (or related code)
could also create bundles itself, that sounds really useful.  If it
could keep intact a reproducible and/or Apache-signed NetBeans binary
in the process, with some verification, maybe that is at least one
good criteria for allowing bundles to carry the Apache NetBeans + ...
name?

Best wishes,

Neil

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Re: State of the Apache NetBeans installers

[Emilian Bold]

> I believe that NBI has legs, at least as a way for NB Platform
applications to fill the gap left by the demise of Java Web Start. As I
have said before, I don't understand well how the NBI system works (yet
- I am trying), but I can't see any good reason why it should be abandoned.

I suspect very few people know how NBI works, it was always a bit magic.

If we can’t support it it might be simpler in time to just abandon it.

I also have a Platform project where the customer went the InnoSetup route.

I guess it’s a pain not to have everything cross-platform but you still
have to replace the launcher icon somehow and you have to sign the
installer (both of which I’ve always done on windows although in theory
doable anywhere)

On Tue, 5 Feb 2019 at 12:17, Mark Phipps  wrote:

> Hi Neil,
>
> It is NBI for several reasons:
>
> 1. afaik it's the way that NetBeans IDE up to 8.2 was installed - why
> can't it be used for 10.0, 11.0 ?
> 2. part of the NB code base
> 3. baked into Ant - right click on an Ant-based NB Platform project and
> choose "Generate installers"
> 4. baked into the nbm-maven plugin. I have invested a huge amount of
> time and effort working out how to tune the generation of installers
> from our maven/ant build system.
> 5. therefore all runs on linux, don't need Windows to generate a Windows
> (or Mac) installer.
>
> I don't want to use yet another technology like Innosetup (good as it
> may be), because I don't run any of my build pipeline on Windows. I
> don't want to learn Pascal scripting either.
>
> I believe that NBI has legs, at least as a way for NB Platform
> applications to fill the gap left by the demise of Java Web Start. As I
> have said before, I don't understand well how the NBI system works (yet
> - I am trying), but I can't see any good reason why it should be abandoned.
>
> Regards
> Mark
>
> On 05/02/2019 08:38, Neil C Smith wrote:
> > On Mon, 4 Feb 2019, 16:15 Mark Phipps  >
> >> Whatever solutions you decide are best for installing NetBeans IDE
> >> itself, application providers need a way to bundle a JRE within the
> >> installer. I presume that everyone is still minded to use the NBI
> >> framework to accomplish this?
> >>
> > Personally, not in the slightest! I made a move on Linux to .deb (soon to
> > be AppImage or Snap), then on macOS to app bundle, and most recently
> > InnoSetup on Windows about a year ago. Bundling is a lot easier when the
> > installation process itself doesn't require the JRE. And I've barely
> > scratched the surface of InnoSetup's features but already got numerous
> > things that were more difficult to achieve via NBI.
> >
> > A question back would actually be, for you why NBI?
> >
> > Best wishes,
> >
> > Neil
> >
>
> www.sucdenfinancial.com
>
> Sucden Financial Limited, Plantation Place South, 60 Gre
> at
> Tower Street, London EC3R 5AZ
> Telephone +44 203 207 5000
>
> Registered in England no. 1095841
> VAT registration no. GB 446 9061 33
>
> Authorised and Regulated by the Financial Conduct Authority (FCA) and
> entered in the FCA register under no. 114239
>
> This email, including any files transmitted with it, is confidential and
> may be privileged. It may be read, copied and used only by the intended
> recipient.
> If you are not the intended recipient of this message, please notify
> postmas...@sucfin.com immediately and delete it from your computer system.
>
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> virus-free, but you should check.
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> Sucden Financial Limited may monitor traffic data of both business and
> personal emails. By replying to this email, you consent to Sucden Financial
> 's monitoring
> the content of any emails you send to or receive from Sucden Financial .
> Sucden Financial is not liable for any opinions expressed by the sender
> where this is a
> non-business email.
>
> The contents of this e-mail do not constitute advice and should not be
> regarded as a recommendation to buy, sell or otherwise deal with any
> particular investment.
> Where any trade ideas are made by an employee of Sucden Financial in an
> electronic communication, these are made incidentally to your dealing
> relationship with
> us and are provided solely to enable you to make your own investment
> decisions and do not amount to advice. Please note that the employee may
> have had many, varied
> trade ideas over the past 12 months, including contrary ideas. Any trade
> ideas are solely based on the employee’s market knowledge and experience
> and may not be
> tailored to your specific circumstances or investment objectives. Please
> contact the employee who made the trade idea if you would like to see any
> of his/her trade
> ideas made in the previous 12 months for comparative purposes. Please
> visit our website to view our full risk warnings and disclaimers:
> www.sucdenfinancial.com.
>
> This message has been 

Re: State of the Apache NetBeans installers

[Neil C Smith]

On Tue, 5 Feb 2019 at 10:17, Mark Phipps  wrote:
> It is NBI for several reasons:

Thanks.  Some thoughts inline.

> 1. afaik it's the way that NetBeans IDE up to 8.2 was installed - why
> can't it be used for 10.0, 11.0 ?

It relies on the user already having a JRE/JDK installed, or bundling
one inside.  As an Apache project, as things currently stand, we can't
bundle the JDK.  We could potentially provide a more user-friendly
installer that provides an optional step to download a JRE/JDK to run
against, but at least that part of the installer can't be in Java for
obvious reasons.

> 2. part of the NB code base

Personally I think there are pros and cons to that.  I'm shipping an
application that is still NB8.2 based at the moment, but already moved
away from NBI for other reasons.  There are currently better featured
alternatives around, so another question is whether improving
NetBean's own solution or improving integration with third-party
solutions is a better use of our resources?

> 3. baked into Ant - right click on an Ant-based NB Platform project and
> choose "Generate installers"
> 4. baked into the nbm-maven plugin. I have invested a huge amount of
> time and effort working out how to tune the generation of installers
> from our maven/ant build system.
> 5. therefore all runs on linux, don't need Windows to generate a Windows
> (or Mac) installer.

Your requirements are very similar to my own there.  It's certainly
feasible to use InnoSetup on Linux and integrate into an automated
build pipeline.  It does require executing via the Wine libraries, but
it's fairly easy to set up in Ant, can be run as part of Travis, etc.

This is not specifically an argument in favour of InnoSetup - there
are other options that work cross-platform too, and may remove Wine
requirements, but it's the one that met my own RCP needs the best.

> I don't want to use yet another technology like Innosetup (good as it
> may be), because I don't run any of my build pipeline on Windows. I
> don't want to learn Pascal scripting either.

Neither do I, and haven't needed to resort to Pascal scripting as yet!
:-)  I think we could even manage the JDK download and integration
without scripting it, but need to read up more on that.  Certainly a
standard RCP with straight bundling can be done without any Pascal.

Best wishes,

Neil

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Re: State of the Apache NetBeans installers

[Emilian Bold]

Did you manage to digitally sign the EXE on Linux?

On Tue, 5 Feb 2019 at 13:13, Neil C Smith  wrote:

> On Tue, 5 Feb 2019 at 10:17, Mark Phipps  wrote:
> > It is NBI for several reasons:
>
> Thanks.  Some thoughts inline.
>
> > 1. afaik it's the way that NetBeans IDE up to 8.2 was installed - why
> > can't it be used for 10.0, 11.0 ?
>
> It relies on the user already having a JRE/JDK installed, or bundling
> one inside.  As an Apache project, as things currently stand, we can't
> bundle the JDK.  We could potentially provide a more user-friendly
> installer that provides an optional step to download a JRE/JDK to run
> against, but at least that part of the installer can't be in Java for
> obvious reasons.
>
> > 2. part of the NB code base
>
> Personally I think there are pros and cons to that.  I'm shipping an
> application that is still NB8.2 based at the moment, but already moved
> away from NBI for other reasons.  There are currently better featured
> alternatives around, so another question is whether improving
> NetBean's own solution or improving integration with third-party
> solutions is a better use of our resources?
>
> > 3. baked into Ant - right click on an Ant-based NB Platform project and
> > choose "Generate installers"
> > 4. baked into the nbm-maven plugin. I have invested a huge amount of
> > time and effort working out how to tune the generation of installers
> > from our maven/ant build system.
> > 5. therefore all runs on linux, don't need Windows to generate a Windows
> > (or Mac) installer.
>
> Your requirements are very similar to my own there.  It's certainly
> feasible to use InnoSetup on Linux and integrate into an automated
> build pipeline.  It does require executing via the Wine libraries, but
> it's fairly easy to set up in Ant, can be run as part of Travis, etc.
>
> This is not specifically an argument in favour of InnoSetup - there
> are other options that work cross-platform too, and may remove Wine
> requirements, but it's the one that met my own RCP needs the best.
>
> > I don't want to use yet another technology like Innosetup (good as it
> > may be), because I don't run any of my build pipeline on Windows. I
> > don't want to learn Pascal scripting either.
>
> Neither do I, and haven't needed to resort to Pascal scripting as yet!
> :-)  I think we could even manage the JDK download and integration
> without scripting it, but need to read up more on that.  Certainly a
> standard RCP with straight bundling can be done without any Pascal.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Neil
>
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>
> --
--emi

Re: State of the Apache NetBeans installers

[Neil C Smith]

On Tue, 5 Feb 2019 at 11:46, Emilian Bold  wrote:
> Did you manage to digitally sign the EXE on Linux?

No, that's one thing I haven't looked at yet.  As far as I know it's
feasible though.  Did a fair bit of reading around Electron packaging
when making a choice of what to go with - various discussion of
options for signing .exe on Linux/Mac there.

Best wishes,

Neil

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Re: Re: State of the Apache NetBeans installers

[Eric Bresie]

Regarding JRE/JDK...

I thought one of the driving things about “modules” in new java release (I 
believe Java 11ish) was to make it so that a modularize jre could be created 
with only elements needed being included and the. That “custom” JRE would be 
embedded with the product. So would linking based on needs be viable.

Or is inclusion of that counter to accepted practices here?

Or am I going in a completely different tangent topic here?

Eric Bresie
ebre...@gmail.com
> On February 5, 2019 at 6:02:43 AM CST, Neil C Smith  
> wrote:
> On Tue, 5 Feb 2019 at 11:46, Emilian Bold  wrote:
> > Did you manage to digitally sign the EXE on Linux?
>
> No, that's one thing I haven't looked at yet. As far as I know it's
> feasible though. Did a fair bit of reading around Electron packaging
> when making a choice of what to go with - various discussion of
> options for signing .exe on Linux/Mac there.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Neil
>
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>
>