RE: [OT] RE: [DISCUSS] Qt as a replacement for VCL

[Dennis E. Hamilton]

So everyone hates Microsoft Office, but they use it anyhow.

How about something a bit more evidence based?

There are now many users who have never seen a version of Office without the 
ribbon.

The availability of training and of lots of information on the Internet matters.

It is true that Microsoft has a network effect working for it.  That's a 
reality that is unlikely to disappear any time soon and it has to figure into 
whatever AOO wants to achieve in those areas that are important for take-up, 
especially in civil administration and other institutional areas apart from 
"enterprise" applications.

For me, that means interoperability at the format interchange level is crucial. 
 UI familiarity is a factor, but UI preferences are meaningless if the 
documents don't work and workers don't have the resources to have the documents 
work.  And by now, the ribbon is established as part of the ready-to-hand 
familiarity that workers have in operating with Microsoft Office.  I don't see 
any meaningful way for AOO to overtake that in terms of worker mind share.

People didn't rush to the store to by Microsoft Word 6.0 because of the UI 
layout either.  And I don't think anyone is rushing to use even a free Word 6.0 
(or Word 2000) work-alike because of the UI either.

 - Dennis


-Original Message-
From: Fernando Cassia [mailto:fcas...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2015 09:24
To: dev@openoffice.apache.org; Dennis Hamilton
Subject: Re: [OT] RE: [DISCUSS] Qt as a replacement for VCL

On Thu, Jan 15, 2015 at 2:05 PM, Dennis E. Hamilton  wrote:

> The sales success of Microsoft Office and Office 365 suggest that
> "(almost) everyone" is inaccurate


IMHO for me this is not (and has never been) an valid argument. People "Buy
MS Office" because:

1. they have tons of documents written in Microsoft's file formats,
2. because only Microsoft Office guarantees file read/write compatibility
with MS Office documents
3. because they were trained in MS Office and 90% of the tutorials you find
on the web are about "how to do [x]" in MS Office, not LO, and not AOO
4. Because "it's the standard" and the business/organization has been
buying "MS Office" since the beginning of (IT) times...

So, basically, it's all about leverage and vendor lock-in.
I haven't met a single MS Office user who rushed to the store to buy MS
Office licenses because of the lovely Ribbon UI...

Of course, my $0.02...
FC


-- 
During times of Universal Deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary
act
Durante épocas de Engaño Universal, decir la verdad se convierte en un Acto
Revolucionario
- George Orwell


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Re: ! Urgent, stickers for FOSDEM

[Kay Schenk]

On 01/15/2015 03:15 AM, Michal Hriň wrote:
> V Štvrtok, 15. január 2015 o 11:28 +0100, Andrea Pescetti 
> napísal(a):
>> Michal Hriň wrote:
>>> Or I will order 250 stickers from modified logo (little 
>>> distorted) and 250 from unmodified logo form pdf.
>> 
>> If you meant to send an image, it didn't reach the list. The 
>> 250+250 could be an option too, or maybe we can fix the image, but 
>> I'll need to see it first.
>> 
> 
> Pictures sended in private to your Apache mail.
> 
> So I mean 250 of mod logo source you have on mail.
> 
> And 250 of this
> 
> http://svn.apache.org/viewvc/openoffice/ooo-site/trunk/content/marketing/art/galleries/logos/aoo-working/Apache_OpenOffice_Logo_ChrisR_selected_2013-06.pdf?view=log
>
>
> 
I don't know. I am here, ping me after decision.

The original svg from which this was rendered can be downloaded from:

http://svn.apache.org/viewvc/openoffice/branding/AOO4/Apache_OpenOffice_Logo_ChrisR_selected_2013-06_optim.svg?view=log

Maybe you could use that to render what you need.

> 
> 
>> Regards, Andrea.
>> 
>> -
>>
>>


-- 
-
MzK

"There's a bit of magic in everything,
  and some loss to even things out."
-- Lou Reed

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Re: [DISCUSS] Re: [VOTE] New Apache OpenOffice PMC Chair

[Andrea Pescetti]

On 15/01/2015 Dennis E. Hamilton wrote:

I also think that there is a serious misunderstanding of
what it means to be PMC Chair.


I will comment on a few items only, merely for clarifying previous 
discussions. I think Dennis is right here, but I explained the Chair 
role at the beginning, I don't see it as a big transition in general. 
Chair duties are maybe 20% of what I do for the project, meaning that 
the remaining 80% is done as an ordinary committer.



I do think folks need to be clear that Andrea is leaving the Chair
position and he is perfectly capable of asking the ASF Board to replace
him if the Project is unable to do so. An offer to wait for a
replacement doesn't have to be on the table forever. Of course,
intervention by the Board invites all manner of unintended consequences,
and I would think there is enough sense of community to avoid that risk.


Yes, it's much better to find a solution (any solution) within the 
community; the Board is the last option.


Regards,
  Andrea.

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Panne

[Maurice PLAIRE]

Bonjour,
 
J'utilise OpenOffice depuis plusieurs années, maintenant avec windows 8. Depuis 
quelques jours j'ai constaté un mauvais fonctionnement. Depuis aujourd'hui je 
ne peux plus utiliser Writer qui a disparu de mon ordinateur. J'ai rechargé 
OpenOffice 411, mais mon problème n'est pas résolu Je viens même de 
m'apercevoir que je ne peux plus ouvrir les fichiers calc 
Merci de me donner des conseils de dépannage...
Meilleurs sentiments.

Website bug on : windows 7 > chrome v 39.0.2171.95 m

[Hagar Delest]

For the record, here is a report from a user who took the time to register the 
forum to log it: 
https://forum.openoffice.org/en/forum/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=74707

Here is the post, if someone wants to have a look:
-
First of all bravo for the easy communication channel for submitting crucial 
website bugs.

So the bug is :|
Uncaught TypeError: Cannot set property 'innerHTML' of null minitab.js:5|

this crashes your download tabs so users cannot choose which data link they 
want...
so i try to contact you to give you feedback... searching...searching.. it 
seems to me there's no contact us email link that i can mail to...
diggin into it...
found bugzilla but don't use it so i go back and search deeper...
found your forum but i have to login to give you feedback...
i try to create an account on your forum but i need to type in the version of 
operating system i use and...
u... ?!whut?! openoffice version? i dont have it because i'm submitting a bug that 
says "i can't get it from your sites" !!!
-.-
typed this in web console :|
activateItem('win')|

and viola. link is there.
try to fix it for your own sake.

keep up the good work on ooo
but help you god if you don't improve your social channels...
-

Hagar

RE: [DISCUSS] Qt as a replacement for VCL

[Dennis E. Hamilton]

I think these proposals are interesting as food for thought ...

 -- replying below to --
From: Fernando Cassia [mailto:fcas...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2015 09:00
To: dev@openoffice.apache.org; Dennis Hamilton
Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] Qt as a replacement for VCL

On Wed, Jan 14, 2015 at 2:27 PM, Dennis E. Hamilton  wrote:

> Maintaining the independently-developed VCL GUI framework is an
> important concern.  (Then there's UNO as a cross-platform COM
> derivative.)
>

There's two possible approaches that I could see, long-term.

#1

Separating the VCL GUI Framework as a separate Apache project, boosting its
adoption into OTHER FOSS and Apache projects. This way, it gets more
developers, more usage, and more fixes, faster.


  I don't know enough about VCL to know how to stack it up against 
  other GUI frameworks, most of which are sustaining quite successfully
  on their own.  

  It might make more sense to see if there is an abstraction layer that
  makes integration in other GUI frameworks easier, but I suspect that
  there are well-known difficulties with that idea.

  I think it is important to have a portable, cross-platform approach,
  but it can also be very appealing to be able to adapt to native 
  technologies that have performance and platform adaptability of their
  own, and have good sustainability.

  I have no insight into any of that.  Any exploration that comes to
  mind would be on something much smaller than AOO in order to have
  confidence in a proof-of-concept.

  Another consideration: How well one can get VCL interfaces tied to
  an underlying HTML/CSS/JavaScript mechanism, say WebKit or some
  flavoring of node.js?


1b Doing the same for UNO


  There are similar considerations here.  At an initial level of 
  scrutiny, UNO is a Microsoft COM work-alike that avoids some 
  platform messiness.  (I.e., the System Manager doesn't have to
  be ported everywhere.)  That's a good idea but it would also be
  a good idea, if feasible, to ensure binary interoperability with
  COM.  (I know that was figured out for JNI on Windows.)
  That should still provide the scripting inter-op, extension
  plug-ins, and allow reliance on native provisions where there is 
  existing support, which means more off-loading to the platform
  when there are already COM interfaces to exploit.


#2 Making AOO.Next use OpenJFX 2.2+, which is, incidentally, what ORCL
wanted to do with OpenOffice.org and StarOffice before the LO freedom
fighters *pun intended* caused the demise of the product and the layoffs.

http://www.devx.com/blog/2009/06/ellison-hints-at-oracles-java.html

OpenJFX is open source, and beginning with 2.2, allows native packaging of
JFX apps without requiring the installation or availability of the JRE.

Plus, OpenJFX allows the GUIs tweakling to be done in CSS, which in turn
allows for simple portability to mobile devices.
see http://code.makery.ch/blog/javafx-vs-html5/

So far, JavaFX seems to be pretty robust for mission critical apps... if in
doubt ask NASA ;)

http://tune.pk/video/2534676/polaris-javafx-controlsfx-and-fxyz-supporting-nasa-missions

For #2, however, there's licensing issues (OpenJFX being GPL) which I won't
get into because I'm not a lawyer, so I don't know how easy it'd be to
integrate with AOO..


   The licensing issue apart, this means basically a switch of GUI and more
   Java-ness, however one manages to provide the runtime, if I understand what
   is involved.  

   This strikes me as completely abandoning VCL (and I have no idea what it
   does for all the places where UNO is exposed).

   Now I wonder about gradualism and how one might migrate.  I can get my
   head around UNO migration, and I may even be delusional about that.
   It is very difficult to conceive of a rewrite into a completely 
   different framework and execution model.

   So this raises the question about the relationship of AOO.next to 
   AOO.present and whether we're talking about a new personal productivity
   suite with migration from AOO.past.

   

#3 (I know I said two... but...) There's Apache Pivot's WTK tookit. I have
no idea of how well it compared to JavaFX
http://pivot.apache.org/tutorials/


   OK, so it is more commitment to JVM languages.  
   No licensing problem, apparently, but it may cut us off from the direction
   mobile applications are going.


Food for thought, thinking aloud.

FC

-- 
During times of Universal Deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary
act
- George Orwell


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Re: Compiling "sal" in cygwin references missing include folder

[Ariel Constenla-Haile]

Hello 郄宁

On Thu, Jan 15, 2015 at 07:50:48PM +0800, 郄宁 wrote:
> >error C1083: Cannot open include file: '../../VC/include/unordered_set':
> > No such file or directory

You might be facing a problem similar to the one described here:
http://markmail.org/message/uapljtzwzxrhusfy

Install Visual C++ 2008 Feature Pack Release from
http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/download/details.aspx?id=6922


Regards
-- 
Ariel Constenla-Haile
La Plata, Argentina


signature.asc
Description: Digital signature

Re: [OT] RE: [DISCUSS] Qt as a replacement for VCL

[Fernando Cassia]

On Thu, Jan 15, 2015 at 2:05 PM, Dennis E. Hamilton  wrote:

> The sales success of Microsoft Office and Office 365 suggest that
> "(almost) everyone" is inaccurate


IMHO for me this is not (and has never been) an valid argument. People "Buy
MS Office" because:

1. they have tons of documents written in Microsoft's file formats,
2. because only Microsoft Office guarantees file read/write compatibility
with MS Office documents
3. because they were trained in MS Office and 90% of the tutorials you find
on the web are about "how to do [x]" in MS Office, not LO, and not AOO
4. Because "it's the standard" and the business/organization has been
buying "MS Office" since the beginning of (IT) times...

So, basically, it's all about leverage and vendor lock-in.
I haven't met a single MS Office user who rushed to the store to buy MS
Office licenses because of the lovely Ribbon UI...

Of course, my $0.02...
FC


-- 
During times of Universal Deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary
act
Durante épocas de Engaño Universal, decir la verdad se convierte en un Acto
Revolucionario
- George Orwell

[OT] RE: [DISCUSS] Qt as a replacement for VCL

[Dennis E. Hamilton]

The sales success of Microsoft Office and Office 365 suggest that "(almost) 
everyone" is inaccurate.

It may be that those who don't like anything about Office since 2003 or 2007 
switch to an OpenOffice version, or the switch is for other reasons entirely 
(such as expense).

As usual when changes like this occur, just as for Windows 10 versus Windows 8, 
there is tuning and tweaking but the main idea survives.  I find that I have 
adjusted just fine to "the ribbon" in all its form on current Windows systems.  
I have found the Windows 8.1 Start Page (and my ability to manage and organize 
what is on it) so appealing that I set Windows 10 to use it instead of the W10 
Start Button, really not a return to the Windows 7 one (although I am certain 
Microsoft is not done perfecting the new Start Button).

So I happily train myself to the OpenOffice GUI and the Microsoft Office GUI 
and have no problem with either of them.  There are hard-to-find items either 
way and everyone's Help system is frustrating [;<).

 - Dennis

-Original Message-
From: Fernando Cassia [mailto:fcas...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2015 08:30
To: dev@openoffice.apache.org; Dennis Hamilton
Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] Qt as a replacement for VCL

On Wed, Jan 14, 2015 at 5:42 PM, Dennis E. Hamilton  wrote:

> I resonate with these remarks (two extracts below).  I particularly want
> to acknowledge all of the work that Kay Schenk and several others have put
> into making AOO more approachable by new developers.


Ideed, "Innovation" for change's sake leads to Microsoft's "Ribbon" UI that
(almost) everyone hated.
In other words, when it comes to GUI design, "if it ain't broken, don't fix
it".

just my $0.02
FC
-- 
During times of Universal Deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary
act
- George Orwell


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Re: [DISCUSS] Qt as a replacement for VCL

[Fernando Cassia]

On Wed, Jan 14, 2015 at 2:27 PM, Dennis E. Hamilton  wrote:

> Maintaining the independently-developed VCL GUI framework is an
> important concern.  (Then there's UNO as a cross-platform COM
> derivative.)
>

There's two possible approaches that I could see, long-term.

#1

Separating the VCL GUI Framework as a separate Apache project, boosting its
adoption into OTHER FOSS and Apache projects. This way, it gets more
developers, more usage, and more fixes, faster.

1b Doing the same for UNO

#2 Making AOO.Next use OpenJFX 2.2+, which is, incidentally, what ORCL
wanted to do with OpenOffice.org and StarOffice before the LO freedom
fighters *pun intended* caused the demise of the product and the layoffs.

http://www.devx.com/blog/2009/06/ellison-hints-at-oracles-java.html

OpenJFX is open source, and beginning with 2.2, allows native packaging of
JFX apps without requiring the installation or availability of the JRE.

Plus, OpenJFX allows the GUIs tweakling to be done in CSS, which in turn
allows for simple portability to mobile devices.
see http://code.makery.ch/blog/javafx-vs-html5/

So far, JavaFX seems to be pretty robust for mission critical apps... if in
doubt ask NASA ;)

http://tune.pk/video/2534676/polaris-javafx-controlsfx-and-fxyz-supporting-nasa-missions

For #2, however, there's licensing issues (OpenJFX being GPL) which I won't
get into because I'm not a lawyer, so I don't know how easy it'd be to
integrate with AOO..

#3 (I know I said two... but...) There's Apache Pivot's WTK tookit. I have
no idea of how well it compared to JavaFX
http://pivot.apache.org/tutorials/

Food for thought, thinking aloud.

FC

-- 
During times of Universal Deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary
act
- George Orwell

RE: Compiling "sal" in cygwin references missing include folder

[Dennis E. Hamilton]

The VC\include\ folder of my Visual Studio installations all have 
"unordered_map" and "unordered_set" C++ header files.  My versions are later 
than Visual Studio 9 though.
 
It may be that Microsoft Visual Studio 9 does not have the desired library file 
in VC\include\ by default since adding Boost library parts to the C++ Standard 
is relatively recent.  If Boost is installed separately, a relative reference 
to VC\include\ may be incorrect and the INCLUDE search path should be set up 
properly for VC to find it.

 - Dennis


-Original Message-
From: 郄宁 [mailto:qienin...@163.com] 
Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2015 03:51
To: dev
Subject: Compiling "sal" in cygwin references missing include folder

>error C1083: Cannot open include file: '../../VC/include/unordered_set':
> No such file or directory
> dmake:  Error code 2, while making '../../wntmsci12.pro/obj/hash.obj'
>
> 1 module(s):
>  sal
> need(s) to be rebuilt
>
> Reason(s):
>
> ERROR: error 65280 occurred while making
> /cygdrive/h/aoo-trunk/main/sal/rtl/source
>
> When you have fixed the errors in that module you can resume the build
> by running:
>
>  build --all:sal
> 
>
> I confirm that the hash_set file indeed has an include line referencing
> the folder "../../VC/include/", which does not exist on my system:
>
[ ... ]
> 
>
> Can someone advise how to work around this?  Do I need to somehow
> specify an STL path in the "configure ..." step?  Or do I need to give a
> path to the boost library?  Or did I miss a warning somewhere?
>
> My compiler resides at "/cygdrive/c/Program Files (x86)/Microsoft Visual
> Studio 9.0/VC/bin", and the folder
> "/cygdrive/c/Program Files (x86)/Microsoft Visual Studio 9.0/VC/include"
> has its own hash_set file, but no unordered_set file.
>
> Happy to supply any additional information that may help.
>
> Regards.


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RE: [DISCUSS] Re: [VOTE] New Apache OpenOffice PMC Chair

[Dennis E. Hamilton]

Although Andrea had made clear what the timeline is, hindsight suggests that, 
once the fact of an unopposed candidate emerged, there probably was need for a 
[DISCUSS] about that singular situation, with more time before calling a vote 
or perhaps not even requiring a [VOTE].

Instead, we have this apparent demonstration of deep-seated disagreement in the 
community.

It is amazing, to me, that with only one person standing up and willing to take 
the job, that there are folks who apparently would rather not have a PMC Chair 
than have the only person willing to commit to the job.  I also think that 
there is a serious misunderstanding of what it means to be PMC Chair.

I'm certain there is more to it than that, and we'll learn more in the next few 
days.  

I do think folks need to be clear that Andrea is leaving the Chair position and 
he is perfectly capable of asking the ASF Board to replace him if the Project 
is unable to do so.  An offer to wait for a replacement doesn't have to be on 
the table forever.  Of course, intervention by the Board invites all manner of 
unintended consequences, and I would think there is enough sense of community 
to avoid that risk.  I suppose we'll see.

-Original Message-
From: Rob Weir [mailto:r...@robweir.com] 
Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2015 06:06
To: dev@openoffice.apache.org
Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] Re: [VOTE] New Apache OpenOffice PMC Chair

On Thu, Jan 15, 2015 at 3:57 AM, Andrea Pescetti  wrote:
[ ... ]
> Ultimately the +1, 0 or -1 is what counts, indeed.
>
> But in the case of a -1, an explanation is always helpful to understand
> what's wrong (wrong timing, and why? wrong person, and why? do you see an
> option we didn't consider, and which one?). So it is very common practice,
> unless it's clear from the previous discussion, to provide it. And I would
> personally find it very useful.
>

Exactly.   That's why we have a discussion prior to a vote, to raise
issues and try to resolve them.   In most cases it is unusual to see a
-1 from someone who never mentioned any concern in the discussions.
Or are PMC Chair votes different?

-Rob


[ ... ]


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RE: [DISCUSS] Re: [VOTE] New Apache OpenOffice PMC Chair

[Dennis E. Hamilton]

 -- replying below to --
From: Michal Hriň [mailto:michal.h...@yahoo.com.INVALID] 
Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2015 01:48
To: dev@openoffice.apache.org
Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] Re: [VOTE] New Apache OpenOffice PMC Chair

V Štvrtok, 15. január 2015 o 09:04 +0100, Andrea Pescetti napísal(a):
[ ... ]
> Procedural note: I didn't add it to my initial mail in order to keep it 
> short, but it is highly recommended that -1 votes be accompanied by a 
> brief motivation (1-2 lines), especially if you haven't participated in 
> the discussions so far. Knowing what is wrong can help a lot. This holds 
> for the -1 votes that have already been expressed too.
> 

Maybe I don't uderstad very well.

Let me express my frustration.

Andrea, you are active chair and member of ASF! (there is now place for
politness) Kick -off all PMCs and bring project to life !


   It is not in the power of the PMC Chair to expel members of the PMC.
   It might not even be in the power of the PMC to expel members. 
   Even if it were, it is not clear that the AOO PMC is capable of such
   a thing.


There are some people who still believes in project, but ...

Proble is not non active people, less releases or resources. Problem is
that every idea is killed. 

This vote was good idea but I thought that you will have disagreement or
not 3 binding votes.


   It seems to me, without any insight into the operation of the AOO PMC,
   That we may be seeing a failure of "community."  I also sense that there
   are different ideas about how work gets done, as if it can somehow be
   commanded (or prevented).
  The PMC Chair is not in a position to impact any dysfunctions
   by much (but would, ideally, not add to or cultivate them).
  There is work, at this moment, in establishing what is thought of
   as the Apache Project Maturity Model, a description of what a
   top-level project should have in its "DNA" as a sustained model 
   by the time it graduates from incubation.  It might be useful for those
   here to review that model and determine how willing they are to 
   operate by it in their conduct here.  See
   .
   This is discussed on the dev @ community.apache.org list.


Regards,

Michal Hriň


> Regards,
>Andrea.
> 
> -
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> 



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Re: [DISCUSS] Qt as a replacement for VCL

[Fernando Cassia]

On Wed, Jan 14, 2015 at 5:42 PM, Dennis E. Hamilton  wrote:

> I resonate with these remarks (two extracts below).  I particularly want
> to acknowledge all of the work that Kay Schenk and several others have put
> into making AOO more approachable by new developers.


Ideed, "Innovation" for change's sake leads to Microsoft's "Ribbon" UI that
(almost) everyone hated.
In other words, when it comes to GUI design, "if it ain't broken, don't fix
it".

just my $0.02
FC
-- 
During times of Universal Deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary
act
- George Orwell

Re: [DISCUSS] Re: [VOTE] New Apache OpenOffice PMC Chair

[Rob Weir]

On Thu, Jan 15, 2015 at 3:57 AM, Andrea Pescetti  wrote:
> O.Felka wrote:
>>
>> Am 15.01.2015 um 09:04 schrieb Andrea Pescetti:
>>>
>>> Procedural note: I didn't add it to my initial mail in order to keep it
>>> short, but it is highly recommended that -1 votes be accompanied by a
>>> brief motivation (1-2 lines), especially if you haven't participated in
>>> the discussions so far. Knowing what is wrong can help a lot. This holds
>>> for the -1 votes that have already been expressed too.
>>
>>
>> If this should be a vote no one has to argue for his decision.
>
>
> Ultimately the +1, 0 or -1 is what counts, indeed.
>
> But in the case of a -1, an explanation is always helpful to understand
> what's wrong (wrong timing, and why? wrong person, and why? do you see an
> option we didn't consider, and which one?). So it is very common practice,
> unless it's clear from the previous discussion, to provide it. And I would
> personally find it very useful.
>

Exactly.   That's why we have a discussion prior to a vote, to raise
issues and try to resolve them.   In most cases it is unusual to see a
-1 from someone who never mentioned any concern in the discussions.
Or are PMC Chair votes different?

-Rob


> Regards,
>   Andrea.
>
>
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org
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>

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Re: [VOTE] New Apache OpenOffice PMC Chair

[RA Stehmann]

On 15.01.2015 01:00, Andrea Pescetti wrote:

> 
> Do you approve that, in his capacity as the Apache OpenOffice PMC Chair,
> Andrea Pescetti submits a resolution to the Board asking to be replaced
> by Louis Suárez-Potts as the Apache OpenOffice PMC Chair?
> [ ] +1 Yes
> [ ]  0 Abstain
> [ ] -1 No
> 

[ ] +1 Yes
[ ]  0 Abstain
[X] -1 No

I think the time is wrong now to change the PMC chair.

IMO we (committers, PMC members, etc.) should discuss first, what we
expect from a PMC chairperson and how we can support him (or her).

What is our role model for a PMC chair? Candidates has described, what
they want to do and what they expect from us, But IMO they don't know
our expectations and our ideas of the improvement of the project.

Afterwards candidates can better appreciate, whether they are fit and
proper to fullfill this function to improve project and community. And
maybe we'll have a real choice between two or more candidates than.

Andrea has made a great job and it's very honorable, that he wants to
give us the chance to find a new person representing and leading our
project. So it's hard for me to say to him: please stay a little longer.

But time isn't IMO ripe yet.

Excuse my poor english.

Kind regards
Michael











signature.asc
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Compiling "sal" in cygwin references missing include folder

[郄宁]

>error C1083: Cannot open include file: '../../VC/include/unordered_set':
> No such file or directory
> dmake:  Error code 2, while making '../../wntmsci12.pro/obj/hash.obj'
>
> 1 module(s):
>  sal
> need(s) to be rebuilt
>
> Reason(s):
>
> ERROR: error 65280 occurred while making
> /cygdrive/h/aoo-trunk/main/sal/rtl/source
>
> When you have fixed the errors in that module you can resume the build
> by running:
>
>  build --all:sal
> 
>
> I confirm that the hash_set file indeed has an include line referencing
> the folder "../../VC/include/", which does not exist on my system:
>
> 
> /// (line 25):/
> #ifdef HAVE_STL_INCLUDE_PATH
>  // TODO: use computed include file name
>  #include_next 
> #elif defined(__cplusplus) && (__cplusplus >= 201103L)
>  #include 
> #elif defined(_MSC_VER)
>  #include <../../VC/include/unordered_set>
>  #define STLP4_EMUBASE_NS ::std::tr1
> #else // fall back to boost/tr1
>  #include 
>  #define STLP4_EMUBASE_NS ::boost
> #endif
> 
>
> Can someone advise how to work around this?  Do I need to somehow
> specify an STL path in the "configure ..." step?  Or do I need to give a
> path to the boost library?  Or did I miss a warning somewhere?
>
> My compiler resides at "/cygdrive/c/Program Files (x86)/Microsoft Visual
> Studio 9.0/VC/bin", and the folder
> "/cygdrive/c/Program Files (x86)/Microsoft Visual Studio 9.0/VC/include"
> has its own hash_set file, but no unordered_set file.
>
> Happy to supply any additional information that may help.
>
> Regards.

Re: ! Urgent, stickers for FOSDEM

[Michal Hriň]

V Štvrtok, 15. január 2015 o 11:28 +0100, Andrea Pescetti napísal(a):
> Michal Hriň wrote:
> > Or I will order 250 stickers from modified logo (little distorted) and
> > 250 from unmodified logo form pdf.
> 
> If you meant to send an image, it didn't reach the list. The 250+250 
> could be an option too, or maybe we can fix the image, but I'll need to 
> see it first.
> 

Pictures sended in private to your Apache mail.

So I mean 250 of mod logo source you have on mail.

And 250 of this 

http://svn.apache.org/viewvc/openoffice/ooo-site/trunk/content/marketing/art/galleries/logos/aoo-working/Apache_OpenOffice_Logo_ChrisR_selected_2013-06.pdf?view=log

I don't know. I am here, ping me after decision.


> Regards,
>Andrea.
> 
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Re: Your stand proposal for Apache OpenOffice has been accepted

[Andrea Pescetti]

On 14/01/2015 Michal Hriň wrote:

V Streda, 14. január 2015 o 09:29 +0100, RA Stehmann napísal(a):

On 14.01.2015 01:46, Andrea Pescetti wrote:

Michael, Mechtilde, what about the quantity? Shall we go for about 500
pins with the plain orb and 500 stickers with the OpenOffice logo and a
15-year statement? What remains unused at FOSDEM could be used for other
events.

That seems to be proper quantities.

OK, so you 'd like 500 stickers with modified logo a 500 with
unmodified, am I right ? I choosed dimensions 8 x 4 cm.


I actually meant 500 in total, all of the "modified" version. But this 
is now being discussed separately. On the other hand, the price for 1000 
is still affordable.



Budget is around 80€ including shipping for this 1000 stickers.
Go forward ?
Mhh, and pin buttons, 0.312 per piece so more than 150€ without
shipping.


Overall, this is not too expensive. We have a quite large (thousands of 
Euros) fund to spend on events, so a budget of 400 EUR (looks like it 
will be much smaller, but this is just to put a limit) is reasonable to 
me, and, subject to lazy consensus, I propose we go for that as a 
theoretical maximum amount.


This way we can have both stickers and button pins.

Regards,
  Andrea.

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Re: ! Urgent, stickers for FOSDEM

[Andrea Pescetti]

Michal Hriň wrote:

Or I will order 250 stickers from modified logo (little distorted) and
250 from unmodified logo form pdf.


If you meant to send an image, it didn't reach the list. The 250+250 
could be an option too, or maybe we can fix the image, but I'll need to 
see it first.


Regards,
  Andrea.

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Re: ! Urgent, stickers for FOSDEM

[Michal Hriň]

V Štvrtok, 15. január 2015 o 10:26 +0100, Michal Hriň napísal(a):
> Hi,
> 
> just now I been in print company for examples of stickers.
> 
> They doesn't look very good (my logo, uploaded on flickr, derivated from
> AOO logo, png format), it is I think not very sharp and little bit
> distorted. 
> 
> I don't have idea how to express here online how it looks in reality
> cause my scanner distorted it more.
> 
> I don't know how to deliver or create acceptable format for print in
> reasonable time from provided graphics.
> 
> Organizers of fosdem booth, try to print on your printer that logo in
> dimensions 8 cm width and you will see.
> 
> I *really - really* need comments if it is acceptable or not.
> 
> Resources and time are not problem ,I think, but I don't want to provide
> materials with not good quality.


Or I will order 250 stickers from modified logo (little distorted) and
250 from unmodified logo form pdf.

Or you want stickers from plotter ?

Decide!

NOTE. Shipping is I think more than 5 days so I want to place binding
order tomorrow.

> 
> Regards,
> 
> Michal Hriň
> 
> 
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Re: [DISCUSS] Re: [VOTE] New Apache OpenOffice PMC Chair

[Michal Hriň]

V Štvrtok, 15. január 2015 o 09:04 +0100, Andrea Pescetti napísal(a):
> On 15/01/2015 Andrea Pescetti wrote:
> > Do you approve that, in his capacity as the Apache OpenOffice PMC Chair,
> > Andrea Pescetti submits a resolution to the Board asking to be replaced
> > by Louis Suárez-Potts as the Apache OpenOffice PMC Chair?
> > [ ] +1 Yes
> > [ ]  0 Abstain
> > [ ] -1 No
> 
> Procedural note: I didn't add it to my initial mail in order to keep it 
> short, but it is highly recommended that -1 votes be accompanied by a 
> brief motivation (1-2 lines), especially if you haven't participated in 
> the discussions so far. Knowing what is wrong can help a lot. This holds 
> for the -1 votes that have already been expressed too.
> 

Maybe I don't uderstad very well.

Let me express my frustration.

Andrea, you are active chair and member of ASF! (there is now place for
politness) Kick -off all PMCs and bring project to life !

There are some people who still believes in project, but ...

Proble is not non active people, less releases or resources. Problem is
that every idea is killed. 

This vote was good idea but I thought that you will have disagreement or
not 3 binding votes.

Regards,

Michal Hriň


> Regards,
>Andrea.
> 
> -
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> 



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! Urgent, stickers for FOSDEM

[Michal Hriň]

Hi,

just now I been in print company for examples of stickers.

They doesn't look very good (my logo, uploaded on flickr, derivated from
AOO logo, png format), it is I think not very sharp and little bit
distorted. 

I don't have idea how to express here online how it looks in reality
cause my scanner distorted it more.

I don't know how to deliver or create acceptable format for print in
reasonable time from provided graphics.

Organizers of fosdem booth, try to print on your printer that logo in
dimensions 8 cm width and you will see.

I *really - really* need comments if it is acceptable or not.

Resources and time are not problem ,I think, but I don't want to provide
materials with not good quality.

Regards,

Michal Hriň


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Re: [DISCUSS] Re: [VOTE] New Apache OpenOffice PMC Chair

[Rory O'Farrell]

On Thu, 15 Jan 2015 09:57:43 +0100
Andrea Pescetti  wrote:

> O.Felka wrote:
> > Am 15.01.2015 um 09:04 schrieb Andrea Pescetti:
> >> Procedural note: I didn't add it to my initial mail in order to keep it
> >> short, but it is highly recommended that -1 votes be accompanied by a
> >> brief motivation (1-2 lines), especially if you haven't participated in
> >> the discussions so far. Knowing what is wrong can help a lot. This holds
> >> for the -1 votes that have already been expressed too.
> >
> > If this should be a vote no one has to argue for his decision.
> 
> Ultimately the +1, 0 or -1 is what counts, indeed.
> 
> But in the case of a -1, an explanation is always helpful to understand 
> what's wrong (wrong timing, and why? wrong person, and why? do you see 
> an option we didn't consider, and which one?). So it is very common 
> practice, unless it's clear from the previous discussion, to provide it. 
> And I would personally find it very useful.
> 
> Regards,
>Andrea.

And it is only a polite request for further information, not compulsory.

-- 
Rory O'Farrell 

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RE: [DISCUSS] Qt as a replacement for VCL

[Alexandro Colorado]

In 2007 Nokia people were interested in taking this, they were pushing
mobile technology and having an office suite in Qt with the brand awareness
of OpenOffice.Org was a competitive advantage for their platform. I always
offer an open venue to get their sentiment  relayed to some core sun
developers, however never really got a
​ re​al push on the ML. I would have loved to really see the deep technical
details between VCL and Qt's widgets.

On Jan 14, 2015 11:28 AM, "Dennis E. Hamilton" 
wrote:

> Maintaining the independently-developed VCL GUI framework is an
> important concern.  (Then there's UNO as a cross-platform COM
> derivative.)
>
> The problem with much of the complexity of AOO, it seems to me,
> is that it is difficult to find improvements that can be
> achieved with progressions of small changes that have every-
> think still working each step of the way. Combined with the
> level of expertise required to know what changes are safe
> and consistent with the architecture of AOO, there is a big
> challenge for identifying any major moves.
>
> It would be great to know what insights there are for
> cultivating and sustaining the necessary expertise and
> maybe simplifying the learning curve and entrance
> requirements.  Maybe just keep doing more of what is
> already being done in this area?
>
>
>  -- replying below to --
> From: Kay Schenk [mailto:kay.sch...@gmail.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2015 15:46
> To: OOo Apache
> Subject: [DISCUSS] Qt as a replacement for VCL
>
> Something I started thinking about and ta da...it's been proposed before --
>
> http://markmail.org/message/gjvwudqnzejlzynz
>
> In my mind, we could use some assistance in the maintenance of the
> toolkit for our UI instead of continuing to do it ourselves. This said,
> I know next to nothing about QT and from what I've seen, the licensing
> is pretty complicated and might not work for the ASF --
>
>  http://doc.qt.io/qt-5/licensing.html#licenses-used-in-qt
>
> 
>   I finally noticed and followed the markmail link above.  Of course,
>   in January 2009, all of OpenOffice.org was under LGPL and the license
>   was not a concern for the open-source side of things.  The private
>   commercial licensing of OO.o by Sun (e.g., to IBM) would have been a
>   concern.
>  The dependency on what continued to be a pretty closely-held project
>   might have been a concern even then.
>  If The Document Foundation had decided this was a good idea, the
>   prospect of an ecumenical accommodation with LibreOffice would be even
>   stranger today than it already is [;<).
> 
>
> Main web site -- http://qt-project.org/
>
> Thoughts?
>
> --
> -
> MzK
>
> "There's a bit of magic in everything,
>   and some loss to even things out."
> -- Lou Reed
>
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>
>
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>
>

Re: [DISCUSS] Re: [VOTE] New Apache OpenOffice PMC Chair

[Andrea Pescetti]

O.Felka wrote:

Am 15.01.2015 um 09:04 schrieb Andrea Pescetti:

Procedural note: I didn't add it to my initial mail in order to keep it
short, but it is highly recommended that -1 votes be accompanied by a
brief motivation (1-2 lines), especially if you haven't participated in
the discussions so far. Knowing what is wrong can help a lot. This holds
for the -1 votes that have already been expressed too.


If this should be a vote no one has to argue for his decision.


Ultimately the +1, 0 or -1 is what counts, indeed.

But in the case of a -1, an explanation is always helpful to understand 
what's wrong (wrong timing, and why? wrong person, and why? do you see 
an option we didn't consider, and which one?). So it is very common 
practice, unless it's clear from the previous discussion, to provide it. 
And I would personally find it very useful.


Regards,
  Andrea.

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Re: [DISCUSS] Re: [VOTE] New Apache OpenOffice PMC Chair

[O.Felka]

Am 15.01.2015 um 09:04 schrieb Andrea Pescetti:


Procedural note: I didn't add it to my initial mail in order to keep it
short, but it is highly recommended that -1 votes be accompanied by a
brief motivation (1-2 lines), especially if you haven't participated in
the discussions so far. Knowing what is wrong can help a lot. This holds
for the -1 votes that have already been expressed too.

Regards,
   Andrea.


If this should be a vote no one has to argue for his decision.

Groetjes,
Olaf


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Re: [VOTE] New Apache OpenOffice PMC Chair

[O.Felka]

[X] +1 Yes
[ ]  0 Abstain
[ ] -1 No

Regards,
Olaf

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[DISCUSS] Re: [VOTE] New Apache OpenOffice PMC Chair

[Andrea Pescetti]

On 15/01/2015 Andrea Pescetti wrote:

Do you approve that, in his capacity as the Apache OpenOffice PMC Chair,
Andrea Pescetti submits a resolution to the Board asking to be replaced
by Louis Suárez-Potts as the Apache OpenOffice PMC Chair?
[ ] +1 Yes
[ ]  0 Abstain
[ ] -1 No


Procedural note: I didn't add it to my initial mail in order to keep it 
short, but it is highly recommended that -1 votes be accompanied by a 
brief motivation (1-2 lines), especially if you haven't participated in 
the discussions so far. Knowing what is wrong can help a lot. This holds 
for the -1 votes that have already been expressed too.


Regards,
  Andrea.

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