[freenet-dev] fproxy-ng first draft and a short roadmap

[Matthew Toseland]

On Thursday 29 Mar 2012 21:29:39 Ian Clarke wrote:
> On Thu, Mar 29, 2012 at 12:11 PM, Florent Daigniere <
> nextgens at freenetproject.org> wrote:
> 
> > Well, you're the one who defends that designers need to be able to touch
> > the
> >  HTML... remember?
> >
> > http://article.gmane.org/gmane.network.freenet.devel/26552
> >
> > Any solution involving GWT is no better than the current fproxy to that
> > regard:
> >  designers would have to touch the java code to change the HTML structure.
> 
> Perhaps, but not to change the general appearance - GWT more-or-less
> dictates the structure anyway because you build the UI at a higher level of
> abstraction.

The current system dictates the structure, and allows you to present it however 
you like with CSS. So does GWT, and this is probably also true with most other 
modern systems, and isn't a criticism: Presentation is CSS, structure is HTML. 
Structural changes can be implemented in principle with any toolkit including 
"keep the current system".

But it means the advantages are not "it lets the designer change the HTML". 
They must lie elsewhere:
- Benefits to programmers: Simpler, more maintainable, less ugly code.
- Much easier to do most update-in-place, pop-up and similar javascript stuff 
because you can write it in (a subset of) Java.
- Some widgets for doing standard things like setting dates.
- Some common but complex things like email folder interfaces may be reusable.
- It forces somebody to consider the structure from scratch. (Of course, this 
doesn't guarantee it will be better!)
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Re: [freenet-dev] fproxy-ng first draft and a short roadmap

[Matthew Toseland]

On Thursday 29 Mar 2012 21:29:39 Ian Clarke wrote:
> On Thu, Mar 29, 2012 at 12:11 PM, Florent Daigniere <
> nextg...@freenetproject.org> wrote:
> 
> > Well, you're the one who defends that designers need to be able to touch
> > the
> >  HTML... remember?
> >
> > http://article.gmane.org/gmane.network.freenet.devel/26552
> >
> > Any solution involving GWT is no better than the current fproxy to that
> > regard:
> >  designers would have to touch the java code to change the HTML structure.
> 
> Perhaps, but not to change the general appearance - GWT more-or-less
> dictates the structure anyway because you build the UI at a higher level of
> abstraction.

The current system dictates the structure, and allows you to present it however 
you like with CSS. So does GWT, and this is probably also true with most other 
modern systems, and isn't a criticism: Presentation is CSS, structure is HTML. 
Structural changes can be implemented in principle with any toolkit including 
"keep the current system".

But it means the advantages are not "it lets the designer change the HTML". 
They must lie elsewhere:
- Benefits to programmers: Simpler, more maintainable, less ugly code.
- Much easier to do most update-in-place, pop-up and similar javascript stuff 
because you can write it in (a subset of) Java.
- Some widgets for doing standard things like setting dates.
- Some common but complex things like email folder interfaces may be reusable.
- It forces somebody to consider the structure from scratch. (Of course, this 
doesn't guarantee it will be better!)


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[freenet-dev] fproxy-ng first draft and a short roadmap

[Florent Daigniere]

On Wed, Mar 28, 2012 at 04:42:13PM -0500, Ian Clarke wrote:
> On Wed, Mar 28, 2012 at 5:35 AM, Florent Daigniere <
> nextgens at freenetproject.org> wrote:
> 
> >  > 3. "kick-ass design" is not a goal
> >
> > I've never said it is either. What I was doing is reminding Ian (sanity)
> > what
> > his points and arguments have been over the years.
> >
> 
> How kind of you, my memory is getting a little rusty in my old age.
> 

You're welcome :?

> 
> > He's the one who has been pushing for a rewrite of fproxy and as far as I
> >  understood, his train of thought so far has been the following:
> > - the design of the current interface sucks
> > => we need to do something about it as it repels users
> > - good coders are bad designers...
> > - good designers are not coders...
> >
> 
> No, but the overlapping set of good coders that are also good designers is *
> extremely* small - I can count those I've met on one hand (actually my wife
> is one of them - but she thinks you're all too grouchy for her to work on
> Freenet's UI :-( ).
> 

I am glad we agree so far :)

I love the rabbit logo, she's the author, isn't she?

So to sum up, we have the choice in between finding a five legged sheep or
 simplifying the requirements by addopting a 'framework' non-coders can
 use...

> > => we need a templating engine both can use and work with
> > - designers don't know nor use any templating engines
> >
> 
> I never said that, I've worked with many designers that have worked with
> templating engines.
> 

I obviously misunderstood your point at the time then.

Was it that we should switch to a 'mainstream/trendy' engine because that's what
 most designers know? If not, would you mind explaining what it was?

> 
> > => we need plain HTML so that designers can keep on using their favourite
> > Adobe tool
> >
> 
> As I mentioned in my last email, I think it's been almost a decade since I
> worked with a designer that wasn't comfortable working with HTML and CSS
> directly.
> 

I might have been mistaken regarding wysiwyg editor; In any case, neither
 the current Fproxy nor any solution involving GWT would enable designers
 to access both the CSS and HTML... and the current Fproxy is good enough if
 only CSS changes are required.

Florent

[freenet-dev] fproxy-ng first draft and a short roadmap

[Florent Daigniere]

On Wed, Mar 28, 2012 at 04:37:33PM -0500, Ian Clarke wrote:
> On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 2:20 PM, Florent Daigniere <
> nextgens at freenetproject.org> wrote:
> 
> > They might be pragmatic but they miss the point. We want to change the
> > templating
> >  engine so that 'web-designers' can use their favourite wysiwyg editor to
> >  help us come up with a kick-ass design. Code-maintainability and other
> >  software-engineering concerns are only secondary here...
> >
> 
> I don't know how many web designers you've worked with, but I've worked
> with a few good ones and they all work directly in css and html - none of
> them to my knowledge use a wysiwyg editor.  The days of proficiency with
> DreamWeaver being a sufficient qualification to call yourself a web
> designer are long gone.
> 
> 
> > GWT doesn't allow that... The only wysiwyg editors I know about are within
> >  IDEs (Eclipse and Netbeans)... That's not the tool of choice of designers.
> >  You're still writing JAVA code as opposed to plain HTML. As far as I know,
> >  from the list of suggested frameworks, only Wicket fulfills this
> >  requirement.
> >
> > see:
> > https://wicket.apache.org/learn/examples/helloworld.html
> 
> 
> GWT is more proscriptive, which may be a good thing (why invent an entirely
> new HTML widget-set from scratch?), but a designer can still modify its
> appearance through css.


Well, you're the one who defends that designers need to be able to touch the
 HTML... remember?

http://article.gmane.org/gmane.network.freenet.devel/26552

Any solution involving GWT is no better than the current fproxy to that regard:
 designers would have to touch the java code to change the HTML structure.

Florent
PS: FYI, the current fproxy allows designers to change the CSS very easily.
 There's an option on the configuration toadlet allowing a CSS file to be read
 from disk directly.

[freenet-dev] fproxy-ng first draft and a short roadmap

[Ian Clarke]

On Thu, Mar 29, 2012 at 12:11 PM, Florent Daigniere <
nextgens at freenetproject.org> wrote:

> Well, you're the one who defends that designers need to be able to touch
> the
>  HTML... remember?
>
> http://article.gmane.org/gmane.network.freenet.devel/26552
>
> Any solution involving GWT is no better than the current fproxy to that
> regard:
>  designers would have to touch the java code to change the HTML structure.
>

Perhaps, but not to change the general appearance - GWT more-or-less
dictates the structure anyway because you build the UI at a higher level of
abstraction.

Ian.

-- 
Ian Clarke
Founder, The Freenet Project
Email: ian at freenetproject.org
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Re: [freenet-dev] fproxy-ng first draft and a short roadmap

[Ian Clarke]

On Thu, Mar 29, 2012 at 12:11 PM, Florent Daigniere <
nextg...@freenetproject.org> wrote:

> Well, you're the one who defends that designers need to be able to touch
> the
>  HTML... remember?
>
> http://article.gmane.org/gmane.network.freenet.devel/26552
>
> Any solution involving GWT is no better than the current fproxy to that
> regard:
>  designers would have to touch the java code to change the HTML structure.
>

Perhaps, but not to change the general appearance - GWT more-or-less
dictates the structure anyway because you build the UI at a higher level of
abstraction.

Ian.

-- 
Ian Clarke
Founder, The Freenet Project
Email: i...@freenetproject.org
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Re: [freenet-dev] fproxy-ng first draft and a short roadmap

[Florent Daigniere]

On Wed, Mar 28, 2012 at 04:42:13PM -0500, Ian Clarke wrote:
> On Wed, Mar 28, 2012 at 5:35 AM, Florent Daigniere <
> nextg...@freenetproject.org> wrote:
> 
> >  > 3. "kick-ass design" is not a goal
> >
> > I've never said it is either. What I was doing is reminding Ian (sanity)
> > what
> > his points and arguments have been over the years.
> >
> 
> How kind of you, my memory is getting a little rusty in my old age.
> 

You're welcome :þ

> 
> > He's the one who has been pushing for a rewrite of fproxy and as far as I
> >  understood, his train of thought so far has been the following:
> > - the design of the current interface sucks
> > => we need to do something about it as it repels users
> > - good coders are bad designers...
> > - good designers are not coders...
> >
> 
> No, but the overlapping set of good coders that are also good designers is *
> extremely* small - I can count those I've met on one hand (actually my wife
> is one of them - but she thinks you're all too grouchy for her to work on
> Freenet's UI :-( ).
> 

I am glad we agree so far :)

I love the rabbit logo, she's the author, isn't she?

So to sum up, we have the choice in between finding a five legged sheep or
 simplifying the requirements by addopting a 'framework' non-coders can
 use...

> > => we need a templating engine both can use and work with
> > - designers don't know nor use any templating engines
> >
> 
> I never said that, I've worked with many designers that have worked with
> templating engines.
> 

I obviously misunderstood your point at the time then.

Was it that we should switch to a 'mainstream/trendy' engine because that's what
 most designers know? If not, would you mind explaining what it was?

> 
> > => we need plain HTML so that designers can keep on using their favourite
> > Adobe tool
> >
> 
> As I mentioned in my last email, I think it's been almost a decade since I
> worked with a designer that wasn't comfortable working with HTML and CSS
> directly.
> 

I might have been mistaken regarding wysiwyg editor; In any case, neither
 the current Fproxy nor any solution involving GWT would enable designers
 to access both the CSS and HTML... and the current Fproxy is good enough if
 only CSS changes are required.

Florent
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Re: [freenet-dev] fproxy-ng first draft and a short roadmap

[Florent Daigniere]

On Wed, Mar 28, 2012 at 04:37:33PM -0500, Ian Clarke wrote:
> On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 2:20 PM, Florent Daigniere <
> nextg...@freenetproject.org> wrote:
> 
> > They might be pragmatic but they miss the point. We want to change the
> > templating
> >  engine so that 'web-designers' can use their favourite wysiwyg editor to
> >  help us come up with a kick-ass design. Code-maintainability and other
> >  software-engineering concerns are only secondary here...
> >
> 
> I don't know how many web designers you've worked with, but I've worked
> with a few good ones and they all work directly in css and html - none of
> them to my knowledge use a wysiwyg editor.  The days of proficiency with
> DreamWeaver being a sufficient qualification to call yourself a web
> designer are long gone.
> 
> 
> > GWT doesn't allow that... The only wysiwyg editors I know about are within
> >  IDEs (Eclipse and Netbeans)... That's not the tool of choice of designers.
> >  You're still writing JAVA code as opposed to plain HTML. As far as I know,
> >  from the list of suggested frameworks, only Wicket fulfills this
> >  requirement.
> >
> > see:
> > https://wicket.apache.org/learn/examples/helloworld.html
> 
> 
> GWT is more proscriptive, which may be a good thing (why invent an entirely
> new HTML widget-set from scratch?), but a designer can still modify its
> appearance through css.


Well, you're the one who defends that designers need to be able to touch the
 HTML... remember?

http://article.gmane.org/gmane.network.freenet.devel/26552

Any solution involving GWT is no better than the current fproxy to that regard:
 designers would have to touch the java code to change the HTML structure.

Florent
PS: FYI, the current fproxy allows designers to change the CSS very easily.
 There's an option on the configuration toadlet allowing a CSS file to be read
 from disk directly.
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[freenet-dev] fproxy-ng first draft and a short roadmap

[Ian Clarke]

On Wed, Mar 28, 2012 at 5:35 AM, Florent Daigniere <
nextgens at freenetproject.org> wrote:

>  > 3. "kick-ass design" is not a goal
>
> I've never said it is either. What I was doing is reminding Ian (sanity)
> what
> his points and arguments have been over the years.
>

How kind of you, my memory is getting a little rusty in my old age.


> He's the one who has been pushing for a rewrite of fproxy and as far as I
>  understood, his train of thought so far has been the following:
> - the design of the current interface sucks
> => we need to do something about it as it repels users
> - good coders are bad designers...
> - good designers are not coders...
>

No, but the overlapping set of good coders that are also good designers is *
extremely* small - I can count those I've met on one hand (actually my wife
is one of them - but she thinks you're all too grouchy for her to work on
Freenet's UI :-( ).


> => we need a templating engine both can use and work with
> - designers don't know nor use any templating engines
>

I never said that, I've worked with many designers that have worked with
templating engines.


> => we need plain HTML so that designers can keep on using their favourite
> Adobe tool
>

As I mentioned in my last email, I think it's been almost a decade since I
worked with a designer that wasn't comfortable working with HTML and CSS
directly.

Ian.


-- 
Ian Clarke
Founder, The Freenet Project
Email: ian at freenetproject.org
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[freenet-dev] fproxy-ng first draft and a short roadmap

[Ian Clarke]

On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 2:20 PM, Florent Daigniere <
nextgens at freenetproject.org> wrote:

> They might be pragmatic but they miss the point. We want to change the
> templating
>  engine so that 'web-designers' can use their favourite wysiwyg editor to
>  help us come up with a kick-ass design. Code-maintainability and other
>  software-engineering concerns are only secondary here...
>

I don't know how many web designers you've worked with, but I've worked
with a few good ones and they all work directly in css and html - none of
them to my knowledge use a wysiwyg editor.  The days of proficiency with
DreamWeaver being a sufficient qualification to call yourself a web
designer are long gone.


> GWT doesn't allow that... The only wysiwyg editors I know about are within
>  IDEs (Eclipse and Netbeans)... That's not the tool of choice of designers.
>  You're still writing JAVA code as opposed to plain HTML. As far as I know,
>  from the list of suggested frameworks, only Wicket fulfills this
>  requirement.
>
> see:
> https://wicket.apache.org/learn/examples/helloworld.html


GWT is more proscriptive, which may be a good thing (why invent an entirely
new HTML widget-set from scratch?), but a designer can still modify its
appearance through css.

Ian.

-- 
Ian Clarke
Personal blog: http://blog.locut.us/
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Re: [freenet-dev] fproxy-ng first draft and a short roadmap

[Ian Clarke]

On Wed, Mar 28, 2012 at 5:35 AM, Florent Daigniere <
nextg...@freenetproject.org> wrote:

>  > 3. "kick-ass design" is not a goal
>
> I've never said it is either. What I was doing is reminding Ian (sanity)
> what
> his points and arguments have been over the years.
>

How kind of you, my memory is getting a little rusty in my old age.


> He's the one who has been pushing for a rewrite of fproxy and as far as I
>  understood, his train of thought so far has been the following:
> - the design of the current interface sucks
> => we need to do something about it as it repels users
> - good coders are bad designers...
> - good designers are not coders...
>

No, but the overlapping set of good coders that are also good designers is *
extremely* small - I can count those I've met on one hand (actually my wife
is one of them - but she thinks you're all too grouchy for her to work on
Freenet's UI :-( ).


> => we need a templating engine both can use and work with
> - designers don't know nor use any templating engines
>

I never said that, I've worked with many designers that have worked with
templating engines.


> => we need plain HTML so that designers can keep on using their favourite
> Adobe tool
>

As I mentioned in my last email, I think it's been almost a decade since I
worked with a designer that wasn't comfortable working with HTML and CSS
directly.

Ian.


-- 
Ian Clarke
Founder, The Freenet Project
Email: i...@freenetproject.org
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Re: [freenet-dev] fproxy-ng first draft and a short roadmap

[Ian Clarke]

On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 2:20 PM, Florent Daigniere <
nextg...@freenetproject.org> wrote:

> They might be pragmatic but they miss the point. We want to change the
> templating
>  engine so that 'web-designers' can use their favourite wysiwyg editor to
>  help us come up with a kick-ass design. Code-maintainability and other
>  software-engineering concerns are only secondary here...
>

I don't know how many web designers you've worked with, but I've worked
with a few good ones and they all work directly in css and html - none of
them to my knowledge use a wysiwyg editor.  The days of proficiency with
DreamWeaver being a sufficient qualification to call yourself a web
designer are long gone.


> GWT doesn't allow that... The only wysiwyg editors I know about are within
>  IDEs (Eclipse and Netbeans)... That's not the tool of choice of designers.
>  You're still writing JAVA code as opposed to plain HTML. As far as I know,
>  from the list of suggested frameworks, only Wicket fulfills this
>  requirement.
>
> see:
> https://wicket.apache.org/learn/examples/helloworld.html


GWT is more proscriptive, which may be a good thing (why invent an entirely
new HTML widget-set from scratch?), but a designer can still modify its
appearance through css.

Ian.

-- 
Ian Clarke
Personal blog: http://blog.locut.us/
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[freenet-dev] fproxy-ng first draft and a short roadmap

[Florent Daigniere]

On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 11:43:55PM +0200, Nicolas Hernandez wrote:
> Hello,
> 

Hi,

> I take this as a request:
> 1. HTLM is not a templating language

Wicket's 'enriched' HTML is

> 2. GWT is just a Framework, not a software architecture

I've never said it is

> 3. "kick-ass design" is not a goal

I've never said it is either. What I was doing is reminding Ian (sanity) what
his points and arguments have been over the years.

He's the one who has been pushing for a rewrite of fproxy and as far as I
 understood, his train of thought so far has been the following:
- the design of the current interface sucks
=> we need to do something about it as it repels users
- good coders are bad designers...
- good designers are not coders...
=> we need a templating engine both can use and work with
- designers don't know nor use any templating engines
=> we need plain HTML so that designers can keep on using their favourite Adobe 
tool

I've taken great care to reply to him, not to you. He's the project lead and
 says what we should be doing. I, as a faithful zealot, am merly asking for
 confirmation of what the plan is when directions change. 

> 4. "Code-maintainability and other software-engineering concerns are only
> secondary here" - definitely not agree
> 

Great, well that's your problem, not mine. Who are you again?

> Some questions:
>  1. wysiwyg editor: Which is ?

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=WYSIWYG

>  2. "GWT doesn't allow that..." - ??? Your sources ???
> 

I've used it in the past... Anyways you're getting it the wrong way around:
You have to prove to me that it exists.

> An answer:
>  1. web design is less than 1% (of charge) of the FProxy rework, please
> create a static FProxy... it is an excellent and constructive action for
> FRProxy.
> 

That's what my argument was: you are getting your priorities wrong. We have a
working solution at the moment. As far as I know, the only reasons why we 
consider
a rewrite of existing code is performance and what falls under 'usability'.

I know that fproxy is not a hot-codepath and doesn't fall under the former.

> The reallity:
> "As far as I know"
> here, you have the point.
> 

Continue to be an ass, and to top-post, that greatly improves your chances.

Florent


> Rgds
> 
> - Nicolas Hernandez
> a-n - aleph-networks
> *CEO*
> http://www.aleph-networks.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 9:20 PM, Florent Daigniere <
> nextgens at freenetproject.org> wrote:
> 
> > On Wed, Mar 14, 2012 at 06:03:25AM -0500, Ian Clarke wrote:
> > > On Wed, Mar 14, 2012 at 5:17 AM, Nicolas Hernandez <
> > > nicolas.hernandez at aleph-networks.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > I have send en email about that. I can fill the decision matrix for
> > you if
> > > > you really needs.
> > > > - Minimalist ui tools
> > > > - poor production capacity in iterative mode,
> > > > - developpers knowledge of Wicket,
> > > > - capacity of using multiple UI with and without js (Lnyx, Web 2.0,
> > > > Android, ...)
> > > >
> > > > are unfavorable  compare to GWT
> > > >
> > >
> > > These justifications seem pragmatic.  I do agree that the development
> > cycle
> > > with Wicket can be a bit slow, at least 4 years ago when I last used it.
> > >
> > > Also, you are correct not to underestimate the importance of using a
> > > familiar tool, it can make a huge difference in development time.
> > >
> > > Ian.
> > >
> >
> > They might be pragmatic but they miss the point. We want to change the
> > templating
> >  engine so that 'web-designers' can use their favourite wysiwyg editor to
> >  help us come up with a kick-ass design. Code-maintainability and other
> >  software-engineering concerns are only secondary here...
> >
> > GWT doesn't allow that... The only wysiwyg editors I know about are within
> >  IDEs (Eclipse and Netbeans)... That's not the tool of choice of designers.
> >  You're still writing JAVA code as opposed to plain HTML. As far as I know,
> >  from the list of suggested frameworks, only Wicket fulfills this
> >  requirement.
> >
> > see:
> > https://wicket.apache.org/learn/examples/helloworld.html
> >
> > Florent
> > ___
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> >

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Re: [freenet-dev] fproxy-ng first draft and a short roadmap

[Florent Daigniere]

On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 11:43:55PM +0200, Nicolas Hernandez wrote:
> Hello,
> 

Hi,

> I take this as a request:
> 1. HTLM is not a templating language

Wicket's 'enriched' HTML is

> 2. GWT is just a Framework, not a software architecture

I've never said it is

> 3. "kick-ass design" is not a goal

I've never said it is either. What I was doing is reminding Ian (sanity) what
his points and arguments have been over the years.

He's the one who has been pushing for a rewrite of fproxy and as far as I
 understood, his train of thought so far has been the following:
- the design of the current interface sucks
=> we need to do something about it as it repels users
- good coders are bad designers...
- good designers are not coders...
=> we need a templating engine both can use and work with
- designers don't know nor use any templating engines
=> we need plain HTML so that designers can keep on using their favourite Adobe 
tool

I've taken great care to reply to him, not to you. He's the project lead and
 says what we should be doing. I, as a faithful zealot, am merly asking for
 confirmation of what the plan is when directions change. 

> 4. "Code-maintainability and other software-engineering concerns are only
> secondary here" - definitely not agree
> 

Great, well that's your problem, not mine. Who are you again?

> Some questions:
>  1. wysiwyg editor: Which is ?

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=WYSIWYG

>  2. "GWT doesn't allow that..." - ??? Your sources ???
> 

I've used it in the past... Anyways you're getting it the wrong way around:
You have to prove to me that it exists.

> An answer:
>  1. web design is less than 1% (of charge) of the FProxy rework, please
> create a static FProxy... it is an excellent and constructive action for
> FRProxy.
> 

That's what my argument was: you are getting your priorities wrong. We have a
working solution at the moment. As far as I know, the only reasons why we 
consider
a rewrite of existing code is performance and what falls under 'usability'.

I know that fproxy is not a hot-codepath and doesn't fall under the former.

> The reallity:
> "As far as I know"
> here, you have the point.
> 

Continue to be an ass, and to top-post, that greatly improves your chances.

Florent


> Rgds
> 
> - Nicolas Hernandez
> a-n - aleph-networks
> *CEO*
> http://www.aleph-networks.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 9:20 PM, Florent Daigniere <
> nextg...@freenetproject.org> wrote:
> 
> > On Wed, Mar 14, 2012 at 06:03:25AM -0500, Ian Clarke wrote:
> > > On Wed, Mar 14, 2012 at 5:17 AM, Nicolas Hernandez <
> > > nicolas.hernan...@aleph-networks.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > I have send en email about that. I can fill the decision matrix for
> > you if
> > > > you really needs.
> > > > - Minimalist ui tools
> > > > - poor production capacity in iterative mode,
> > > > - developpers knowledge of Wicket,
> > > > - capacity of using multiple UI with and without js (Lnyx, Web 2.0,
> > > > Android, ...)
> > > >
> > > > are unfavorable  compare to GWT
> > > >
> > >
> > > These justifications seem pragmatic.  I do agree that the development
> > cycle
> > > with Wicket can be a bit slow, at least 4 years ago when I last used it.
> > >
> > > Also, you are correct not to underestimate the importance of using a
> > > familiar tool, it can make a huge difference in development time.
> > >
> > > Ian.
> > >
> >
> > They might be pragmatic but they miss the point. We want to change the
> > templating
> >  engine so that 'web-designers' can use their favourite wysiwyg editor to
> >  help us come up with a kick-ass design. Code-maintainability and other
> >  software-engineering concerns are only secondary here...
> >
> > GWT doesn't allow that... The only wysiwyg editors I know about are within
> >  IDEs (Eclipse and Netbeans)... That's not the tool of choice of designers.
> >  You're still writing JAVA code as opposed to plain HTML. As far as I know,
> >  from the list of suggested frameworks, only Wicket fulfills this
> >  requirement.
> >
> > see:
> > https://wicket.apache.org/learn/examples/helloworld.html
> >
> > Florent
> > ___
> > Devl mailing list
> > Devl@freenetproject.org
> > https://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl
> >

> ___
> Devl mailing list
> Devl@freenetproject.org
> https://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl
___
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[freenet-dev] fproxy-ng first draft and a short roadmap

[Nicolas Hernandez]

Hello,

I take this as a request:
1. HTLM is not a templating language
2. GWT is just a Framework, not a software architecture
3. "kick-ass design" is not a goal
4. "Code-maintainability and other software-engineering concerns are only
secondary here" - definitely not agree

Some questions:
 1. wysiwyg editor: Which is ?
 2. "GWT doesn't allow that..." - ??? Your sources ???

An answer:
 1. web design is less than 1% (of charge) of the FProxy rework, please
create a static FProxy... it is an excellent and constructive action for
FRProxy.

The reallity:
"As far as I know"
here, you have the point.

Rgds

- Nicolas Hernandez
a-n - aleph-networks
*CEO*
http://www.aleph-networks.com




On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 9:20 PM, Florent Daigniere <
nextgens at freenetproject.org> wrote:

> On Wed, Mar 14, 2012 at 06:03:25AM -0500, Ian Clarke wrote:
> > On Wed, Mar 14, 2012 at 5:17 AM, Nicolas Hernandez <
> > nicolas.hernandez at aleph-networks.com> wrote:
> >
> > > I have send en email about that. I can fill the decision matrix for
> you if
> > > you really needs.
> > > - Minimalist ui tools
> > > - poor production capacity in iterative mode,
> > > - developpers knowledge of Wicket,
> > > - capacity of using multiple UI with and without js (Lnyx, Web 2.0,
> > > Android, ...)
> > >
> > > are unfavorable  compare to GWT
> > >
> >
> > These justifications seem pragmatic.  I do agree that the development
> cycle
> > with Wicket can be a bit slow, at least 4 years ago when I last used it.
> >
> > Also, you are correct not to underestimate the importance of using a
> > familiar tool, it can make a huge difference in development time.
> >
> > Ian.
> >
>
> They might be pragmatic but they miss the point. We want to change the
> templating
>  engine so that 'web-designers' can use their favourite wysiwyg editor to
>  help us come up with a kick-ass design. Code-maintainability and other
>  software-engineering concerns are only secondary here...
>
> GWT doesn't allow that... The only wysiwyg editors I know about are within
>  IDEs (Eclipse and Netbeans)... That's not the tool of choice of designers.
>  You're still writing JAVA code as opposed to plain HTML. As far as I know,
>  from the list of suggested frameworks, only Wicket fulfills this
>  requirement.
>
> see:
> https://wicket.apache.org/learn/examples/helloworld.html
>
> Florent
> ___
> Devl mailing list
> Devl at freenetproject.org
> https://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl
>
-- next part --
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: 

[freenet-dev] fproxy-ng first draft and a short roadmap

[Florent Daigniere]

On Wed, Mar 14, 2012 at 06:03:25AM -0500, Ian Clarke wrote:
> On Wed, Mar 14, 2012 at 5:17 AM, Nicolas Hernandez <
> nicolas.hernandez at aleph-networks.com> wrote:
> 
> > I have send en email about that. I can fill the decision matrix for you if
> > you really needs.
> > - Minimalist ui tools
> > - poor production capacity in iterative mode,
> > - developpers knowledge of Wicket,
> > - capacity of using multiple UI with and without js (Lnyx, Web 2.0,
> > Android, ...)
> >
> > are unfavorable  compare to GWT
> >
> 
> These justifications seem pragmatic.  I do agree that the development cycle
> with Wicket can be a bit slow, at least 4 years ago when I last used it.
> 
> Also, you are correct not to underestimate the importance of using a
> familiar tool, it can make a huge difference in development time.
> 
> Ian.
> 

They might be pragmatic but they miss the point. We want to change the 
templating
 engine so that 'web-designers' can use their favourite wysiwyg editor to
 help us come up with a kick-ass design. Code-maintainability and other
 software-engineering concerns are only secondary here...

GWT doesn't allow that... The only wysiwyg editors I know about are within
 IDEs (Eclipse and Netbeans)... That's not the tool of choice of designers.
 You're still writing JAVA code as opposed to plain HTML. As far as I know,
 from the list of suggested frameworks, only Wicket fulfills this
 requirement.

see:
https://wicket.apache.org/learn/examples/helloworld.html

Florent

Re: [freenet-dev] fproxy-ng first draft and a short roadmap

[Nicolas Hernandez]

Hello,

I take this as a request:
1. HTLM is not a templating language
2. GWT is just a Framework, not a software architecture
3. "kick-ass design" is not a goal
4. "Code-maintainability and other software-engineering concerns are only
secondary here" - definitely not agree

Some questions:
 1. wysiwyg editor: Which is ?
 2. "GWT doesn't allow that..." - ??? Your sources ???

An answer:
 1. web design is less than 1% (of charge) of the FProxy rework, please
create a static FProxy... it is an excellent and constructive action for
FRProxy.

The reallity:
"As far as I know"
here, you have the point.

Rgds

- Nicolas Hernandez
a-n - aleph-networks
*CEO*
http://www.aleph-networks.com




On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 9:20 PM, Florent Daigniere <
nextg...@freenetproject.org> wrote:

> On Wed, Mar 14, 2012 at 06:03:25AM -0500, Ian Clarke wrote:
> > On Wed, Mar 14, 2012 at 5:17 AM, Nicolas Hernandez <
> > nicolas.hernan...@aleph-networks.com> wrote:
> >
> > > I have send en email about that. I can fill the decision matrix for
> you if
> > > you really needs.
> > > - Minimalist ui tools
> > > - poor production capacity in iterative mode,
> > > - developpers knowledge of Wicket,
> > > - capacity of using multiple UI with and without js (Lnyx, Web 2.0,
> > > Android, ...)
> > >
> > > are unfavorable  compare to GWT
> > >
> >
> > These justifications seem pragmatic.  I do agree that the development
> cycle
> > with Wicket can be a bit slow, at least 4 years ago when I last used it.
> >
> > Also, you are correct not to underestimate the importance of using a
> > familiar tool, it can make a huge difference in development time.
> >
> > Ian.
> >
>
> They might be pragmatic but they miss the point. We want to change the
> templating
>  engine so that 'web-designers' can use their favourite wysiwyg editor to
>  help us come up with a kick-ass design. Code-maintainability and other
>  software-engineering concerns are only secondary here...
>
> GWT doesn't allow that... The only wysiwyg editors I know about are within
>  IDEs (Eclipse and Netbeans)... That's not the tool of choice of designers.
>  You're still writing JAVA code as opposed to plain HTML. As far as I know,
>  from the list of suggested frameworks, only Wicket fulfills this
>  requirement.
>
> see:
> https://wicket.apache.org/learn/examples/helloworld.html
>
> Florent
> ___
> Devl mailing list
> Devl@freenetproject.org
> https://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl
>
___
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Re: [freenet-dev] fproxy-ng first draft and a short roadmap

[Florent Daigniere]

On Wed, Mar 14, 2012 at 06:03:25AM -0500, Ian Clarke wrote:
> On Wed, Mar 14, 2012 at 5:17 AM, Nicolas Hernandez <
> nicolas.hernan...@aleph-networks.com> wrote:
> 
> > I have send en email about that. I can fill the decision matrix for you if
> > you really needs.
> > - Minimalist ui tools
> > - poor production capacity in iterative mode,
> > - developpers knowledge of Wicket,
> > - capacity of using multiple UI with and without js (Lnyx, Web 2.0,
> > Android, ...)
> >
> > are unfavorable  compare to GWT
> >
> 
> These justifications seem pragmatic.  I do agree that the development cycle
> with Wicket can be a bit slow, at least 4 years ago when I last used it.
> 
> Also, you are correct not to underestimate the importance of using a
> familiar tool, it can make a huge difference in development time.
> 
> Ian.
> 

They might be pragmatic but they miss the point. We want to change the 
templating
 engine so that 'web-designers' can use their favourite wysiwyg editor to
 help us come up with a kick-ass design. Code-maintainability and other
 software-engineering concerns are only secondary here...

GWT doesn't allow that... The only wysiwyg editors I know about are within
 IDEs (Eclipse and Netbeans)... That's not the tool of choice of designers.
 You're still writing JAVA code as opposed to plain HTML. As far as I know,
 from the list of suggested frameworks, only Wicket fulfills this
 requirement.

see:
https://wicket.apache.org/learn/examples/helloworld.html

Florent
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[freenet-dev] fproxy-ng first draft and a short roadmap

[Matthew Toseland]

On Wednesday 14 Mar 2012 11:44:12 Nicolas Hernandez wrote:
> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/67035152/fproxy-ng.png

Looks interesting! Is XHTML11Renderer something you are going to have to write 
or something that GWT provides? Either way, there will be basically a common 
base of templates and code, we don't have to pre-render templates at compile 
time or anything?

One advantage of using GWT is we're already using it for web-pushing; maybe 
that'll get debugged now, or maybe you'll replace it. Of course if you don't 
need client-pulling-events-from-node functionality that's fine too, somebody 
else can debug it some day!

The current web-pushing code is located here:

src/freenet/clients/http/updateableelements/
src/freenet/clients/http/ajaxpush/
generator/js/

> It should be ok
> 
> - Nicolas Hernandez
> a-n - aleph-networks
> *associ?*
> http://www.aleph-networks.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Wed, Mar 14, 2012 at 12:01 PM, Ian Clarke  
> wrote:
> 
> > On Sun, Mar 11, 2012 at 5:07 PM, Nicolas Hernandez <
> > nicolas.hernandez at aleph-networks.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Here is the first draft of http://dl.free.fr/h8FSuBGNG 
> >> 
> >>
> >
> > Nicolas, I can't seem to download this, I click on "T?l?charger ce
> > fichier" but nothing happens :-/
> >
> > You might want to consider using http://dropbox.com/.
> >
> > Ian.
> >
> >
> > --
> > Ian Clarke
> > Founder, The Freenet Project
> > Email: ian at freenetproject.org
> >
> > ___
> > Devl mailing list
> > Devl at freenetproject.org
> > http://freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl
> >
> 
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Re: [freenet-dev] fproxy-ng first draft and a short roadmap

[Matthew Toseland]

On Wednesday 14 Mar 2012 11:44:12 Nicolas Hernandez wrote:
> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/67035152/fproxy-ng.png

Looks interesting! Is XHTML11Renderer something you are going to have to write 
or something that GWT provides? Either way, there will be basically a common 
base of templates and code, we don't have to pre-render templates at compile 
time or anything?

One advantage of using GWT is we're already using it for web-pushing; maybe 
that'll get debugged now, or maybe you'll replace it. Of course if you don't 
need client-pulling-events-from-node functionality that's fine too, somebody 
else can debug it some day!

The current web-pushing code is located here:

src/freenet/clients/http/updateableelements/
src/freenet/clients/http/ajaxpush/
generator/js/

> It should be ok
> 
> - Nicolas Hernandez
> a-n - aleph-networks
> *associé*
> http://www.aleph-networks.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Wed, Mar 14, 2012 at 12:01 PM, Ian Clarke  wrote:
> 
> > On Sun, Mar 11, 2012 at 5:07 PM, Nicolas Hernandez <
> > nicolas.hernan...@aleph-networks.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Here is the first draft of http://dl.free.fr/h8FSuBGNG 
> >> 
> >>
> >
> > Nicolas, I can't seem to download this, I click on "Télécharger ce
> > fichier" but nothing happens :-/
> >
> > You might want to consider using http://dropbox.com/.
> >
> > Ian.
> >
> >
> > --
> > Ian Clarke
> > Founder, The Freenet Project
> > Email: i...@freenetproject.org
> >
> > ___
> > Devl mailing list
> > Devl@freenetproject.org
> > http://freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl
> >
> 


signature.asc
Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
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[freenet-dev] fproxy-ng first draft and a short roadmap

[Nicolas Hernandez]

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/67035152/fproxy-ng.png

It should be ok

- Nicolas Hernandez
a-n - aleph-networks
*associ?*
http://www.aleph-networks.com




On Wed, Mar 14, 2012 at 12:01 PM, Ian Clarke  wrote:

> On Sun, Mar 11, 2012 at 5:07 PM, Nicolas Hernandez <
> nicolas.hernandez at aleph-networks.com> wrote:
>
>> Here is the first draft of http://dl.free.fr/h8FSuBGNG 
>> 
>>
>
> Nicolas, I can't seem to download this, I click on "T?l?charger ce
> fichier" but nothing happens :-/
>
> You might want to consider using http://dropbox.com/.
>
> Ian.
>
>
> --
> Ian Clarke
> Founder, The Freenet Project
> Email: ian at freenetproject.org
>
> ___
> Devl mailing list
> Devl at freenetproject.org
> http://freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl
>
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[freenet-dev] fproxy-ng first draft and a short roadmap

[Nicolas Hernandez]

On Mon, Mar 12, 2012 at 2:01 AM, Ximin Luo  wrote:

> On 11/03/12 23:11, Matthew Toseland wrote:
> > On Sunday 11 Mar 2012 22:07:08 Nicolas Hernandez wrote:
> >> Hello,
> >>
>

Hi,



> >> after lots of internal fights the choice is made. Let's go for GWT.
> >
> > This will cost us a large proportion of our core userbase. Alienating
> your core users is a cardinal sin.
> >
>
> This prophecy is a little unrealistic,


prophecy + unrealistic is already a critic :-)

I 'am' an old Java programmer, my experts are advanced java programmers,
and when we are coding with GWT, we produce GWT.  it looks real  for
me. I am not a commiter, just a coder nothing prophetic for freenet. If our
efforts to share code with Freenet community does'nt work, it would not be
a technical problem for us, it would just be an ideological reframing.



> let's see what the end result actually
> is before criticising it.
>
> Nicolas - can you describe your reasoning behind your decision? Why not
> e.g.
> Apache Wicket?

I have send en email about that. I can fill the decision matrix for you if
you really needs.
- Minimalist ui tools
- poor production capacity in iterative mode,
- developpers knowledge of Wicket,
- capacity of using multiple UI with and without js (Lnyx, Web 2.0,
Android, ...)

are unfavorable  compare to GWT

We likes the concepts of Wicket, but in the case of a road to 0.8, GWT
looks - for us - the less worst choice. 6 monthes to produce the entire UI
is not impossible. With wickets i can't produce someting usable in 6 monthes


Nicolas
-- next part --
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[freenet-dev] fproxy-ng first draft and a short roadmap

[Ian Clarke]

On Wed, Mar 14, 2012 at 5:17 AM, Nicolas Hernandez <
nicolas.hernandez at aleph-networks.com> wrote:

> I have send en email about that. I can fill the decision matrix for you if
> you really needs.
> - Minimalist ui tools
> - poor production capacity in iterative mode,
> - developpers knowledge of Wicket,
> - capacity of using multiple UI with and without js (Lnyx, Web 2.0,
> Android, ...)
>
> are unfavorable  compare to GWT
>

These justifications seem pragmatic.  I do agree that the development cycle
with Wicket can be a bit slow, at least 4 years ago when I last used it.

Also, you are correct not to underestimate the importance of using a
familiar tool, it can make a huge difference in development time.

Ian.

-- 
Ian Clarke
Personal blog: http://blog.locut.us/
-- next part --
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[freenet-dev] fproxy-ng first draft and a short roadmap

[Ian Clarke]

On Sun, Mar 11, 2012 at 5:07 PM, Nicolas Hernandez <
nicolas.hernandez at aleph-networks.com> wrote:

> Here is the first draft of http://dl.free.fr/h8FSuBGNG 
> 
>

Nicolas, I can't seem to download this, I click on "T?l?charger ce fichier"
but nothing happens :-/

You might want to consider using http://dropbox.com/.

Ian.


-- 
Ian Clarke
Founder, The Freenet Project
Email: ian at freenetproject.org
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Re: [freenet-dev] fproxy-ng first draft and a short roadmap

[Nicolas Hernandez]

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/67035152/fproxy-ng.png

It should be ok

- Nicolas Hernandez
a-n - aleph-networks
*associé*
http://www.aleph-networks.com




On Wed, Mar 14, 2012 at 12:01 PM, Ian Clarke  wrote:

> On Sun, Mar 11, 2012 at 5:07 PM, Nicolas Hernandez <
> nicolas.hernan...@aleph-networks.com> wrote:
>
>> Here is the first draft of http://dl.free.fr/h8FSuBGNG 
>> 
>>
>
> Nicolas, I can't seem to download this, I click on "Télécharger ce
> fichier" but nothing happens :-/
>
> You might want to consider using http://dropbox.com/.
>
> Ian.
>
>
> --
> Ian Clarke
> Founder, The Freenet Project
> Email: i...@freenetproject.org
>
> ___
> Devl mailing list
> Devl@freenetproject.org
> http://freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl
>
___
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Re: [freenet-dev] fproxy-ng first draft and a short roadmap

[Ian Clarke]

On Wed, Mar 14, 2012 at 5:17 AM, Nicolas Hernandez <
nicolas.hernan...@aleph-networks.com> wrote:

> I have send en email about that. I can fill the decision matrix for you if
> you really needs.
> - Minimalist ui tools
> - poor production capacity in iterative mode,
> - developpers knowledge of Wicket,
> - capacity of using multiple UI with and without js (Lnyx, Web 2.0,
> Android, ...)
>
> are unfavorable  compare to GWT
>

These justifications seem pragmatic.  I do agree that the development cycle
with Wicket can be a bit slow, at least 4 years ago when I last used it.

Also, you are correct not to underestimate the importance of using a
familiar tool, it can make a huge difference in development time.

Ian.

-- 
Ian Clarke
Personal blog: http://blog.locut.us/
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Re: [freenet-dev] fproxy-ng first draft and a short roadmap

[Ian Clarke]

On Sun, Mar 11, 2012 at 5:07 PM, Nicolas Hernandez <
nicolas.hernan...@aleph-networks.com> wrote:

> Here is the first draft of http://dl.free.fr/h8FSuBGNG 
> 
>

Nicolas, I can't seem to download this, I click on "Télécharger ce fichier"
but nothing happens :-/

You might want to consider using http://dropbox.com/.

Ian.


-- 
Ian Clarke
Founder, The Freenet Project
Email: i...@freenetproject.org
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Re: [freenet-dev] fproxy-ng first draft and a short roadmap

[Nicolas Hernandez]

On Mon, Mar 12, 2012 at 2:01 AM, Ximin Luo  wrote:

> On 11/03/12 23:11, Matthew Toseland wrote:
> > On Sunday 11 Mar 2012 22:07:08 Nicolas Hernandez wrote:
> >> Hello,
> >>
>

Hi,



> >> after lots of internal fights the choice is made. Let's go for GWT.
> >
> > This will cost us a large proportion of our core userbase. Alienating
> your core users is a cardinal sin.
> >
>
> This prophecy is a little unrealistic,


prophecy + unrealistic is already a critic :-)

I 'am' an old Java programmer, my experts are advanced java programmers,
and when we are coding with GWT, we produce GWT.  it looks real  for
me. I am not a commiter, just a coder nothing prophetic for freenet. If our
efforts to share code with Freenet community does'nt work, it would not be
a technical problem for us, it would just be an ideological reframing.



> let's see what the end result actually
> is before criticising it.
>
> Nicolas - can you describe your reasoning behind your decision? Why not
> e.g.
> Apache Wicket?

I have send en email about that. I can fill the decision matrix for you if
you really needs.
- Minimalist ui tools
- poor production capacity in iterative mode,
- developpers knowledge of Wicket,
- capacity of using multiple UI with and without js (Lnyx, Web 2.0,
Android, ...)

are unfavorable  compare to GWT

We likes the concepts of Wicket, but in the case of a road to 0.8, GWT
looks - for us - the less worst choice. 6 monthes to produce the entire UI
is not impossible. With wickets i can't produce someting usable in 6 monthes


Nicolas
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[freenet-dev] fproxy-ng first draft and a short roadmap

[Matthew Toseland]

On Tuesday 13 Mar 2012 16:50:17 Ian Clarke wrote:
> On Sun, Mar 11, 2012 at 6:11 PM, Matthew Toseland  amphibian.dyndns.org
> > wrote:
> 
> > On Sunday 11 Mar 2012 22:07:08 Nicolas Hernandez wrote:
> > > Hello,
> > >
> > > after lots of internal fights the choice is made. Let's go for GWT.
> >
> > This will cost us a large proportion of our core userbase. Alienating your
> > core users is a cardinal sin.
> >
> 
> I don't agree.  We can't be held hostage by a vocal minority of existing
> users, and if Nicolas is willing to do the work, I believe his opinion
> should hold sway.

Sorry, he has already explained that he can provide an html fallback, based on 
the same infrastructure. So there is no problem - at least none more serious 
than the gentoo issues, which are minor imho. So it looks good.
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Re: [freenet-dev] fproxy-ng first draft and a short roadmap

[Matthew Toseland]

On Tuesday 13 Mar 2012 16:50:17 Ian Clarke wrote:
> On Sun, Mar 11, 2012 at 6:11 PM, Matthew Toseland  > wrote:
> 
> > On Sunday 11 Mar 2012 22:07:08 Nicolas Hernandez wrote:
> > > Hello,
> > >
> > > after lots of internal fights the choice is made. Let's go for GWT.
> >
> > This will cost us a large proportion of our core userbase. Alienating your
> > core users is a cardinal sin.
> >
> 
> I don't agree.  We can't be held hostage by a vocal minority of existing
> users, and if Nicolas is willing to do the work, I believe his opinion
> should hold sway.

Sorry, he has already explained that he can provide an html fallback, based on 
the same infrastructure. So there is no problem - at least none more serious 
than the gentoo issues, which are minor imho. So it looks good.


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[freenet-dev] fproxy-ng first draft and a short roadmap

[Ian Clarke]

On Sun, Mar 11, 2012 at 6:11 PM, Matthew Toseland  wrote:

> On Sunday 11 Mar 2012 22:07:08 Nicolas Hernandez wrote:
> > Hello,
> >
> > after lots of internal fights the choice is made. Let's go for GWT.
>
> This will cost us a large proportion of our core userbase. Alienating your
> core users is a cardinal sin.
>

I don't agree.  We can't be held hostage by a vocal minority of existing
users, and if Nicolas is willing to do the work, I believe his opinion
should hold sway.

Ian.

-- 
Ian Clarke
Personal blog: http://blog.locut.us/
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Re: [freenet-dev] fproxy-ng first draft and a short roadmap

[Ian Clarke]

On Sun, Mar 11, 2012 at 6:11 PM, Matthew Toseland  wrote:

> On Sunday 11 Mar 2012 22:07:08 Nicolas Hernandez wrote:
> > Hello,
> >
> > after lots of internal fights the choice is made. Let's go for GWT.
>
> This will cost us a large proportion of our core userbase. Alienating your
> core users is a cardinal sin.
>

I don't agree.  We can't be held hostage by a vocal minority of existing
users, and if Nicolas is willing to do the work, I believe his opinion
should hold sway.

Ian.

-- 
Ian Clarke
Personal blog: http://blog.locut.us/
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[freenet-dev] fproxy-ng first draft and a short roadmap

[Matthew Toseland]

On Monday 12 Mar 2012 01:01:59 Ximin Luo wrote:
> On 11/03/12 23:11, Matthew Toseland wrote:
> > On Sunday 11 Mar 2012 22:07:08 Nicolas Hernandez wrote:
> >> Hello,
> >>
> >> after lots of internal fights the choice is made. Let's go for GWT.
> > 
> > This will cost us a large proportion of our core userbase. Alienating your 
> > core users is a cardinal sin.
> > 
> 
> This prophecy is a little unrealistic, let's see what the end result actually
> is before criticising it.
> 
> Nicolas - can you describe your reasoning behind your decision? Why not e.g.
> Apache Wicket?

I'm sorry, the framework doesn't matter, what matters is that there is an 
HTML-no-js version, and it seems that this is planned, even though Nicolas is 
proposing to use GWT.
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[freenet-dev] fproxy-ng first draft and a short roadmap

[Matthew Toseland]

On Sunday 11 Mar 2012 22:07:08 Nicolas Hernandez wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> after lots of internal fights the choice is made. Let's go for GWT.
> 
> First of all main goals for 0.0:
> - Identify all the visuals components in actual FPRoxy
> - Create the Eclipse project
> - Create code examples and documentation
> - HTML11 Renderer for Lynx and other text based browsers (iso-features with
> actual FPRoxy, no js )

Sorry, I misunderstood. I don't mean to be unsupportive of volunteers! Looks 
like you've gone out of your way to provide a static version.

The XHTML11Renderer is provided by GWT? Or it will need to be written? Does it 
require a separate set of templates? I can't find much info on google...

> - create all the stub
> 
> Here is the first draft of http://dl.free.fr/h8FSuBGNG
> 
> 
> A pad and other tools would be available soon ...
> 
> Thanks for your support !
> 
> - Nicolas Hernandez
> a-n - aleph-networks
> *associ?*
> http://www.aleph-networks.com
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Re: [freenet-dev] fproxy-ng first draft and a short roadmap

[Matthew Toseland]

On Monday 12 Mar 2012 01:01:59 Ximin Luo wrote:
> On 11/03/12 23:11, Matthew Toseland wrote:
> > On Sunday 11 Mar 2012 22:07:08 Nicolas Hernandez wrote:
> >> Hello,
> >>
> >> after lots of internal fights the choice is made. Let's go for GWT.
> > 
> > This will cost us a large proportion of our core userbase. Alienating your 
> > core users is a cardinal sin.
> > 
> 
> This prophecy is a little unrealistic, let's see what the end result actually
> is before criticising it.
> 
> Nicolas - can you describe your reasoning behind your decision? Why not e.g.
> Apache Wicket?

I'm sorry, the framework doesn't matter, what matters is that there is an 
HTML-no-js version, and it seems that this is planned, even though Nicolas is 
proposing to use GWT.


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Re: [freenet-dev] fproxy-ng first draft and a short roadmap

[Matthew Toseland]

On Sunday 11 Mar 2012 22:07:08 Nicolas Hernandez wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> after lots of internal fights the choice is made. Let's go for GWT.
> 
> First of all main goals for 0.0:
> - Identify all the visuals components in actual FPRoxy
> - Create the Eclipse project
> - Create code examples and documentation
> - HTML11 Renderer for Lynx and other text based browsers (iso-features with
> actual FPRoxy, no js )

Sorry, I misunderstood. I don't mean to be unsupportive of volunteers! Looks 
like you've gone out of your way to provide a static version.

The XHTML11Renderer is provided by GWT? Or it will need to be written? Does it 
require a separate set of templates? I can't find much info on google...

> - create all the stub
> 
> Here is the first draft of http://dl.free.fr/h8FSuBGNG
> 
> 
> A pad and other tools would be available soon ...
> 
> Thanks for your support !
> 
> - Nicolas Hernandez
> a-n - aleph-networks
> *associé*
> http://www.aleph-networks.com


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[freenet-dev] fproxy-ng first draft and a short roadmap

[Ximin Luo]

On 11/03/12 23:11, Matthew Toseland wrote:
> On Sunday 11 Mar 2012 22:07:08 Nicolas Hernandez wrote:
>> Hello,
>>
>> after lots of internal fights the choice is made. Let's go for GWT.
> 
> This will cost us a large proportion of our core userbase. Alienating your 
> core users is a cardinal sin.
> 

This prophecy is a little unrealistic, let's see what the end result actually
is before criticising it.

Nicolas - can you describe your reasoning behind your decision? Why not e.g.
Apache Wicket?


-- 
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https://github.com/infinity0
https://bitbucket.org/infinity0
https://launchpad.net/~infinity0

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[freenet-dev] fproxy-ng first draft and a short roadmap

[Matthew Toseland]

On Sunday 11 Mar 2012 22:07:08 Nicolas Hernandez wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> after lots of internal fights the choice is made. Let's go for GWT.

This will cost us a large proportion of our core userbase. Alienating your core 
users is a cardinal sin.
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[freenet-dev] fproxy-ng first draft and a short roadmap

[Nicolas Hernandez]

Hello,

after lots of internal fights the choice is made. Let's go for GWT.

First of all main goals for 0.0:
- Identify all the visuals components in actual FPRoxy
- Create the Eclipse project
- Create code examples and documentation
- HTML11 Renderer for Lynx and other text based browsers (iso-features with
actual FPRoxy, no js )
- create all the stub

Here is the first draft of http://dl.free.fr/h8FSuBGNG


A pad and other tools would be available soon ...

Thanks for your support !

- Nicolas Hernandez
a-n - aleph-networks
*associ?*
http://www.aleph-networks.com
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Re: [freenet-dev] fproxy-ng first draft and a short roadmap

[Ximin Luo]

On 11/03/12 23:11, Matthew Toseland wrote:
> On Sunday 11 Mar 2012 22:07:08 Nicolas Hernandez wrote:
>> Hello,
>>
>> after lots of internal fights the choice is made. Let's go for GWT.
> 
> This will cost us a large proportion of our core userbase. Alienating your 
> core users is a cardinal sin.
> 

This prophecy is a little unrealistic, let's see what the end result actually
is before criticising it.

Nicolas - can you describe your reasoning behind your decision? Why not e.g.
Apache Wicket?


-- 
GPG: 4096R/5FBBDBCE
https://github.com/infinity0
https://bitbucket.org/infinity0
https://launchpad.net/~infinity0



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Re: [freenet-dev] fproxy-ng first draft and a short roadmap

[Matthew Toseland]

On Sunday 11 Mar 2012 22:07:08 Nicolas Hernandez wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> after lots of internal fights the choice is made. Let's go for GWT.

This will cost us a large proportion of our core userbase. Alienating your core 
users is a cardinal sin.


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[freenet-dev] fproxy-ng first draft and a short roadmap

[Nicolas Hernandez]

Hello,

after lots of internal fights the choice is made. Let's go for GWT.

First of all main goals for 0.0:
- Identify all the visuals components in actual FPRoxy
- Create the Eclipse project
- Create code examples and documentation
- HTML11 Renderer for Lynx and other text based browsers (iso-features with
actual FPRoxy, no js )
- create all the stub

Here is the first draft of http://dl.free.fr/h8FSuBGNG


A pad and other tools would be available soon ...

Thanks for your support !

- Nicolas Hernandez
a-n - aleph-networks
*associé*
http://www.aleph-networks.com
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