Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release
On Wed, 2013-01-02 at 13:59 -0800, Walter Bright wrote: […] rhythmbox is a miserable program (at least on Ubuntu). It has a marvy feature where it randomly stops playing, and only a cold boot will bring it back. It also has random problems syncing with my music file database which is on a Windows shared folder. Getting it to recognize a just-added CD was an exercise in madness. I usually wound up deleting rhythmbox's settings file and starting over. There was a period prior to Canonical dropping Rhythmbox and then later reinstating it as the default player, that there were some problems with Rhythmbox failing to work. It was painful. for the last couple of years though, Rhythmbox has worked entirely fine for me on Debian Unstable with none of the problems seen during that period. So Rhythmbox on Debian works fine for me, far better than any other Linux offering. OS X offerings I have tried all, universally, fail to be at all appealing or even useful. I finally threw in the towel and don't use Ubuntu to play music anymore. I threw in the towel on Ubuntu when Unity came out as the default UI. […] I'll admit my backups were less than stellar. I stupidly clicked the upgrade Ubuntu button first. I'll also admit to not having a whole lot of patience with the problems with it. I have an obsessively paranoid backup regime: RAID1 data disc array on the server which does generational backups to the backup disc. Workstation mirrors the data disc and has it's own generational backup – it can become the server if the server fails. Each laptop mirrors the server data. Not only does this mean I have never lost a file even across server crash, disc fail or computer fail, each device has exactly the same data configuration, which gets propagated. So sync up, switch machine. In this context a laptop blowing up, let alone a failed upgrade of OS, is a mere mild irritant, fixed in a couple of hours The core trick is to regularly backup /etc and dpkg --get-selections. Debian state is then recreatable very quickly. -- Russel. = Dr Russel Winder t: +44 20 7585 2200 voip: sip:russel.win...@ekiga.net 41 Buckmaster Roadm: +44 7770 465 077 xmpp: rus...@winder.org.uk London SW11 1EN, UK w: www.russel.org.uk skype: russel_winder signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release
On Wed, 2013-01-02 at 20:31 +0100, Jordi Sayol wrote: […] Walter, to avoid this problem you can install a rolling release like Linux Mint Debian Edition, based on Debian testing. You just need to keep it upgraded with mintUpdate manager (shield on panel). Read the Update pack info before. Sadly Debian Testing, outside of a freeze period prior to a Stable release, has this habit of allowing Britney to delete important packages. Despite the statements put out by Debian, Debian Testing is not a viable rolling release. Debian Unstable is the only viable rolling release. Even then during a freeze it is irritating. Has Linux Mint Debian Edition got a fix for this problem with Debian Testing? -- Russel. = Dr Russel Winder t: +44 20 7585 2200 voip: sip:russel.win...@ekiga.net 41 Buckmaster Roadm: +44 7770 465 077 xmpp: rus...@winder.org.uk London SW11 1EN, UK w: www.russel.org.uk skype: russel_winder signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release
1/3/2013 12:22 PM, Russel Winder пишет: On Wed, 2013-01-02 at 13:59 -0800, Walter Bright wrote: […] rhythmbox is a miserable program (at least on Ubuntu). It has a marvy feature where it randomly stops playing, and only a cold boot will bring it back. It also has random problems syncing with my music file database which is on a Windows shared folder. Getting it to recognize a just-added CD was an exercise in madness. I usually wound up deleting rhythmbox's settings file and starting over. There was a period prior to Canonical dropping Rhythmbox and then later reinstating it as the default player, that there were some problems with Rhythmbox failing to work. It was painful. for the last couple of years though, Rhythmbox has worked entirely fine for me on Debian Unstable with none of the problems seen during that period. So Rhythmbox on Debian works fine for me, far better than any other Linux offering. OS X offerings I have tried all, universally, fail to be at all appealing or even useful. I finally threw in the towel and don't use Ubuntu to play music anymore. I threw in the towel on Ubuntu when Unity came out as the default UI. Going OT but can't agree more :) -- Dmitry Olshansky
Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release
On 1/3/2013 12:25 AM, Dmitry Olshansky wrote: 1/3/2013 12:22 PM, Russel Winder пишет: I threw in the towel on Ubuntu when Unity came out as the default UI. Going OT but can't agree more :) I use a command prompt, and don't particular care about the UI g.
Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release
On 1/2/2013 11:53 PM, Russel Winder wrote: On Wed, 2013-01-02 at 13:18 -0800, Walter Bright wrote: […] I don't store email on the server, I store it locally. I think that this is at the heart of your mail problems. It means you rely on one and only one computer for email. I would find this unworkable: I find IMAP the only solution that works for me and my collection of laptops and workstation. This has the dies effect of the data stored on the client being removable because it is reconstructible. I know. On the other hand, you have control over your email data.
C++11 - using const and mutable for thread safety [Video]
Newly discovered changes in C++11 on using const and mutable for thread safety http://channel9.msdn.com/posts/C-and-Beyond-2012-Herb-Sutter-You-dont-know-blank-and-blank
Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release
On 1/3/2013 12:06 AM, Russel Winder wrote: On Wed, 2013-01-02 at 11:30 -0800, Walter Bright wrote: Does the latest Ubuntu work properly with SSD drives? I know 10.10 does not. I have an extra SSD drive I want to try. No idea I'm afraid. Googling it reveals the usual wishy-washy answers in Ubuntu support forums, even for 12.10. Nobody seems to know. With Windows 7, it's easy. Yes. End of story.
vibe.d 0.7.10 released
Changes: - Compiles on DMD 2.061 (and Win64) - The Win32 back end supports TCP sockets - Form and REST interface generators have been improved and can handle more types - Diet templates support arbitrary D expressions instead of just static strings for HTML attributes now. Boolean values are also supported and do the right thing (i.e. omitting the attribute in the output if it evaluates to false). Full change log: http://vibed.org/blog/posts/vibe-release-0.7.10 Download*: http://vibed.org/download?file=vibed-0.7.10.zip GitHub: https://github.com/rejectedsoftware/vibe.d * Due to the removal of GitHub's download feature, the zip file is now unfortunately hosted on the same slow virtual server as the site.
Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release
On Thu, 2013-01-03 at 00:55 -0800, Walter Bright wrote: […] Googling it reveals the usual wishy-washy answers in Ubuntu support forums, even for 12.10. Nobody seems to know. Googling for anything to do with Ubuntu is not the issue, the issue is Linux and SSD. Given the issue about a special command that needs to be issues by the OS (*), it all depends on which version of Linux has that. I assume 3.6 and later have it as there are happily working Linux Ultrabooks out there, so Linux and SSD work, Intel demands it. The fact that you are on 10.10 currently is a potential issue, as the Linux support may not have been smoothed out by then. With Windows 7, it's easy. Yes. End of story. Windows, delete it. End of Story. (*) SSD should have all the flashing management algorithms built in to the firmware, the OS should not be able to distinguish an SSD from a random access sequence of bytes accessed as a SATA device. We were using flash devices in 2004 when all this was already sorted. -- Russel. = Dr Russel Winder t: +44 20 7585 2200 voip: sip:russel.win...@ekiga.net 41 Buckmaster Roadm: +44 7770 465 077 xmpp: rus...@winder.org.uk London SW11 1EN, UK w: www.russel.org.uk skype: russel_winder signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: UIs for Linux [ was Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release ]
On Thu, 2013-01-03 at 00:34 -0800, Walter Bright wrote: On 1/3/2013 12:25 AM, Dmitry Olshansky wrote: 1/3/2013 12:22 PM, Russel Winder пишет: I threw in the towel on Ubuntu when Unity came out as the default UI. Going OT but can't agree more :) I use a command prompt, and don't particular care about the UI g. There was a revolution in Debian, Ubuntu, and Fedora that will affect you even if you are just a command line person (as I am). Ubuntu moved to Unity which only Canonical staff seem to like. Debian and Fedora stuck with GNOME 3 and the Gnome Shell, which many people hate but actually a lot of people (including me now, but not originally) really prefer over GNOME 2. Various high profile people (cf. Linus Torvalds) panned GNOME Shell and skipped off to XFCE on GNOME 3 and then KDE. His attack on GNOME Shell was a bit OTT, but his move to KDE is entirely his choice. Even if you just manage command line terminals, the evolution will hit you. It's analogous to the way Windows 7 evolved into Windows 8, but not so revolutionary. -- Russel. = Dr Russel Winder t: +44 20 7585 2200 voip: sip:russel.win...@ekiga.net 41 Buckmaster Roadm: +44 7770 465 077 xmpp: rus...@winder.org.uk London SW11 1EN, UK w: www.russel.org.uk skype: russel_winder signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release
On 1/3/2013 1:20 AM, Russel Winder wrote: (*) SSD should have all the flashing management algorithms built in to the firmware, the OS should not be able to distinguish an SSD from a random access sequence of bytes accessed as a SATA device. We were using flash devices in 2004 when all this was already sorted. This is incorrect. Google SSD TRIM for why. The short version is yes, SSD drives will work without TRIM, but will run slowly. Operating system TRIM support is necessary for fast SSD operation. TRIM is how the operating system tells the SSD drive that certain blocks no longer contain useful data, and can be recycled. The normal non-TRIM behavior is the only way the drive finds out that blocks are no longer used is when a write is issued for them. Windows 7 has TRIM support, Windows XP does not. I have an SSD drive in an XP machine, it runs as slow as a spinning disk. An SSD in Win7, with TRIM, runs like lightning.
Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release
On Thu, 2013-01-03 at 01:26 -0800, Walter Bright wrote: […] This is incorrect. Google SSD TRIM for why. The short version is yes, SSD drives will work without TRIM, but will run slowly. Operating system TRIM support is necessary for fast SSD operation. TRIM is how the operating system tells the SSD drive that certain blocks no longer contain useful data, and can be recycled. The normal non-TRIM behavior is the only way the drive finds out that blocks are no longer used is when a write is issued for them. This is what you get for backward compatibility, i.e. using flash on the same IO device and device driver as was designed for rotating rust hardware. SSD is just a whole hacky thing and instead the motherboards and OSes should evolve to allow the flash to be seen as a memory extension – which is what we were doing in 2004 very successfully with embedded systems. The very existence of TRIM indicates a systemic problem. -- Russel. = Dr Russel Winder t: +44 20 7585 2200 voip: sip:russel.win...@ekiga.net 41 Buckmaster Roadm: +44 7770 465 077 xmpp: rus...@winder.org.uk London SW11 1EN, UK w: www.russel.org.uk skype: russel_winder signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release
On Thursday, 3 January 2013 at 01:06:46 UTC, Walter Bright wrote: On 1/2/2013 2:45 PM, deadalnix wrote: On Wednesday, 2 January 2013 at 07:01:02 UTC, Bernard Helyer wrote: I am getting a whole _mess_ of warning: statement not reachable on everything after a final switch. I can confirm this. Freaking annoying (and not really convincing me that D is stable) ! Please post example to bugzilla. I plan too, but will needs hours to reduce the case. I'll do it in the next days.
Re TRIM Support [was Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release]
On Thu, 2013-01-03 at 01:26 -0800, Walter Bright wrote: […] Windows 7 has TRIM support, Windows XP does not. I have an SSD drive in an XP machine, it runs as slow as a spinning disk. An SSD in Win7, with TRIM, runs like lightning. Linux had TRIM support since 2008, but until late 2010 it wasn't easy to work with. Since then ( 2.6.33) Linux support for TRIM has been fine as long as you use ext4 filestores. You just have to add the discard property to the partition mount in fstab. -- Russel. = Dr Russel Winder t: +44 20 7585 2200 voip: sip:russel.win...@ekiga.net 41 Buckmaster Roadm: +44 7770 465 077 xmpp: rus...@winder.org.uk London SW11 1EN, UK w: www.russel.org.uk skype: russel_winder signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: vibe.d 0.7.10 released
On Thursday, 3 January 2013 at 09:19:57 UTC, Sönke Ludwig wrote: Changes: - Compiles on DMD 2.061 (and Win64) - The Win32 back end supports TCP sockets - Form and REST interface generators have been improved and can handle more types - Diet templates support arbitrary D expressions instead of just static strings for HTML attributes now. Boolean values are also supported and do the right thing (i.e. omitting the attribute in the output if it evaluates to false). Full change log: http://vibed.org/blog/posts/vibe-release-0.7.10 Download*: http://vibed.org/download?file=vibed-0.7.10.zip GitHub: https://github.com/rejectedsoftware/vibe.d * Due to the removal of GitHub's download feature, the zip file is now unfortunately hosted on the same slow virtual server as the site. Pretty cool stuff, congratulations. I've had a look at it and as I am always looking for alternatives to generally (and sheepishly) accepted will do technologies like PHP, JS etc. I would like to test and possibly use it for my own web projects. Only, it's not 100% clear to me how vibe.d can be integrated into existing frameworks / technologies, as when you rent server space somewhere. Can vibe.d exist as a standalone framework (i.e. as a replacement for PHP) within my own rented space or does it need to be installed as a system wide service, in which case it is up to the host whether or not to make it available?
Re: vibe.d 0.7.10 released
May I suggest you need to do some marketing against: node.js vert.x goweb revel Play! Django Grails Ruby on Rails Flask Sinatra Ratpack Why would anyone want to use vibe.d in preference to any of the above? Is there a lightning talk I can do at ACCU, PyCon UK, Gr8Conf, GGX, EuroPython, etc. to show that the pet Web framework/Web toolkit of the language of the conference is rubbish in comparison to that of D? -- Russel. = Dr Russel Winder t: +44 20 7585 2200 voip: sip:russel.win...@ekiga.net 41 Buckmaster Roadm: +44 7770 465 077 xmpp: rus...@winder.org.uk London SW11 1EN, UK w: www.russel.org.uk skype: russel_winder signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: vibe.d 0.7.10 released
On Thursday, 3 January 2013 at 10:40:40 UTC, Chris wrote: Pretty cool stuff, congratulations. I've had a look at it and as I am always looking for alternatives to generally (and sheepishly) accepted will do technologies like PHP, JS etc. I would like to test and possibly use it for my own web projects. Only, it's not 100% clear to me how vibe.d can be integrated into existing frameworks / technologies, as when you rent server space somewhere. Can vibe.d exist as a standalone framework (i.e. as a replacement for PHP) within my own rented space or does it need to be installed as a system wide service, in which case it is up to the host whether or not to make it available? I'm using dmd and vibe on a Linode server without installing them. Haven't had a single problem with it.
Re: vibe.d 0.7.10 released
Last time I was performance testing vibe it was almost 4x faster than node.js and 1.5 faster than similar Erlang framework (can't remember its name now). Plus all static typing and sane async syntax goodies as a cherry on top. Was enough to convince me, but other language lovers will probably need more arguments :) On Thursday, 3 January 2013 at 10:55:06 UTC, Russel Winder wrote: May I suggest you need to do some marketing against: node.js vert.x goweb revel Play! Django Grails Ruby on Rails Flask Sinatra Ratpack Why would anyone want to use vibe.d in preference to any of the above? Is there a lightning talk I can do at ACCU, PyCon UK, Gr8Conf, GGX, EuroPython, etc. to show that the pet Web framework/Web toolkit of the language of the conference is rubbish in comparison to that of D?
Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release
On 2013-01-02 22:19, Walter Bright wrote: Having backups doesn't work so good when the versions and settings change with a new OS. I mean, before you upgrade the OS you make sure you have everything backed up. Then if the installation trashes everything you can at least rollback to the previous state. -- /Jacob Carlborg
Re: vibe.d 0.7.10 released
On 2013-01-03 11:54, Russel Winder wrote: May I suggest you need to do some marketing against: node.js vert.x goweb revel Play! Django Grails Ruby on Rails Flask Sinatra Ratpack Why would anyone want to use vibe.d in preference to any of the above? Is there a lightning talk I can do at ACCU, PyCon UK, Gr8Conf, GGX, EuroPython, etc. to show that the pet Web framework/Web toolkit of the language of the conference is rubbish in comparison to that of D? One of the great things about Ruby on Rails is that it's got a plugin for everything (and a bit more). Oh, and I really like the assets pipeline. It compiles SASS, CoffeeScript and similar languages to CSS and JavaScript. It's also possible to pipe it through Ruby first. In production environment it merges all separate CSS/JavaScript files into one and minifies it. It also adds a unique hash to the end of the filename to avoid conflicts with cached files. -- /Jacob Carlborg
Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release
On 2013-01-02 22:19, Walter Bright wrote: Having backups doesn't work so good when the versions and settings change with a new OS. I can also add that the latest upgrades I have performed I cloned the hard drive containing the OS. Then I perform the upgrade on the clone, if everything works ok I either run the clone instead or does the same on the original disk. -- /Jacob Carlborg
Re: vibe.d 0.7.10 released
On Thursday, 3 January 2013 at 10:55:06 UTC, Russel Winder wrote: May I suggest you need to do some marketing against: node.js vert.x goweb revel Play! Django Grails Ruby on Rails Flask Sinatra Ratpack Why would anyone want to use vibe.d in preference to any of the above? Is there a lightning talk I can do at ACCU, PyCon UK, Gr8Conf, GGX, EuroPython, etc. to show that the pet Web framework/Web toolkit of the language of the conference is rubbish in comparison to that of D? I would have to test vibe.d first and I do like to try new things, especially because I have had bad experiences with JS, PHP, Pyhton and Java based stuff (workwise I have to deal with PHP/JS a lot which can be pretty annoying). Every few years there's a new definite framework based on one popular language or another, a new CMS and what not. But popular does not necessarily mean good or flexible. In fact, the bigger a system or framework gets, the less flexible it becomes, IMO.
Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release
On Thursday, 3 January 2013 at 01:06:46 UTC, Walter Bright wrote: On 1/2/2013 2:45 PM, deadalnix wrote: On Wednesday, 2 January 2013 at 07:01:02 UTC, Bernard Helyer wrote: I am getting a whole _mess_ of warning: statement not reachable on everything after a final switch. I can confirm this. Freaking annoying (and not really convincing me that D is stable) ! Please post example to bugzilla. http://d.puremagic.com/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=9263
Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release
On 2 January 2013 18:07, Walter Bright newshou...@digitalmars.com wrote: On 1/2/2013 9:59 AM, Iain Buclaw wrote: On Wednesday, 2 January 2013 at 17:53:58 UTC, Walter Bright wrote: On 1/2/2013 4:12 AM, Jacob Carlborg wrote: On 2013-01-02 00:46, Walter Bright wrote: 2. the OS X package hasn't been built yet (problems with the package script). What isn't working? Is there something I can do to help? The various packages are all built on Ubuntu. The OS X one failed because it couldn't find ruby, and ruby does not work on Ubuntu (at least my version of Ubuntu - there is no ruby package for it). Really? http://packages.ubuntu.com/**quantal/rubyhttp://packages.ubuntu.com/quantal/ruby Yeah, really. sudo apt-get ruby fails on Ubuntu 10.10. Ubuntu 10.10 repositories have been moved to http://old-releases.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/ Changing your sources repository to that should fix for you. But then again why fix a system that ain't broke. :o) Regards -- Iain Buclaw *(p e ? p++ : p) = (c 0x0f) + '0';
Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release
On 3 January 2013 11:45, Iain Buclaw ibuc...@ubuntu.com wrote: On 2 January 2013 18:07, Walter Bright newshou...@digitalmars.com wrote: On 1/2/2013 9:59 AM, Iain Buclaw wrote: On Wednesday, 2 January 2013 at 17:53:58 UTC, Walter Bright wrote: On 1/2/2013 4:12 AM, Jacob Carlborg wrote: On 2013-01-02 00:46, Walter Bright wrote: 2. the OS X package hasn't been built yet (problems with the package script). What isn't working? Is there something I can do to help? The various packages are all built on Ubuntu. The OS X one failed because it couldn't find ruby, and ruby does not work on Ubuntu (at least my version of Ubuntu - there is no ruby package for it). Really? http://packages.ubuntu.com/**quantal/rubyhttp://packages.ubuntu.com/quantal/ruby Yeah, really. sudo apt-get ruby fails on Ubuntu 10.10. Ubuntu 10.10 repositories have been moved to http://old-releases.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/ Changing your sources repository to that should fix for you. But then again why fix a system that ain't broke. :o) PS: Move to Debian! -- Iain Buclaw *(p e ? p++ : p) = (c 0x0f) + '0';
Re: vibe.d 0.7.10 released
On Thursday, 3 January 2013 at 10:57:06 UTC, simendsjo wrote: On Thursday, 3 January 2013 at 10:40:40 UTC, Chris wrote: I'm using dmd and vibe on a Linode server without installing them. Haven't had a single problem with it. Good news, but in this case there may be restrictions depending on the provider (i.e. restrictions as to installing your own software). What are your experiences with vibe.d?
Re: vibe.d 0.7.10 released
On Thursday, 3 January 2013 at 11:53:01 UTC, Chris wrote: On Thursday, 3 January 2013 at 10:57:06 UTC, simendsjo wrote: On Thursday, 3 January 2013 at 10:40:40 UTC, Chris wrote: I'm using dmd and vibe on a Linode server without installing them. Haven't had a single problem with it. Good news, but in this case there may be restrictions depending on the provider (i.e. restrictions as to installing your own software). What are your experiences with vibe.d? You only have to download the vibe and dmd zips. As long as you can run executables you download you should be fine. I haven't installed them myself, just added some symlinks to the executables. I've only created a small vibe site, so I don't have a lot of experience with it, but it seems very fast and nice. Doesn't force you into a particular way of structuring your site.
Re: vibe.d 0.7.10 released
On Thursday, 3 January 2013 at 12:22:33 UTC, simendsjo You only have to download the vibe and dmd zips. As long as you can run executables you download you should be fine. I haven't installed them myself, just added some symlinks to the executables. I've only created a small vibe site, so I don't have a lot of experience with it, but it seems very fast and nice. Doesn't force you into a particular way of structuring your site. That's good news. From what I have seen on the vibe.d homepage I think it comes pretty close to what I want, a skeleton I can flesh out myself and - as you pointed out - without being forced to adhere to a certain way of arranging things, plus it is written in D and thus all the language's features can be used for web development.
Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release
On 01/02/2013 04:18 PM, Walter Bright wrote: Why would you need to? If your mail store is IMAP, just let it rebuild. I don't store email on the server, I store it locally. I gave that up years ago when I ended up with more than one device. Too much did I get that email on my laptop or my desktop? And now with tablet, phone, laptop, desktop, and several kiosk machines around the house (because how else do you watch Firefly whilst loading custom hunting ammunition in the gun room?) and then the device proliferation continues... scp -rp ~/.thunderbird target machine will shove your whole TB directory to the new box. Doesn't work on Windows. Why not? The directory may be different, but the philosophy should still hold. Just install ssh/sshd from cygwin and you're set. (The cheekier response is stop using toy OS's. Windows is only suitable for playing video games, and I'm looking forward to Steam's release for Linux such that I can power on the Wintendo less and less. I haven't done real work on Windows in 10 years. Too much UI struggle and context switching because of lack of proper virtual desktops and focus follows mouse has never quite worked correctly). Anyhow, the TB documentation never says this. TB has documentation? I can't say that I've ever read it. :-) Nor does that help you if you just want to move account settings over rather than the entire 10 years worth of mail. (I generally limit what I put on my laptop, in case I lose it!) Hence, my server-side email storage preference. I also have a script which pulls the mailstore locally once a month, just in case the hosting company has an issue, and then that lives on a machine with a RAID mirror and monthly detached backup. What is the rationale behind import/export of address books, and not doing that for anything else? I have no idea. I'm not sure rationale applies to many FLOSS projects of appreciable size. In a cathedral model, you'd have that.. not so much in the bazaar. -- Matthew Caron, Software Build Engineer Sixnet, a Red Lion business | www.sixnet.com +1 (518) 877-5173 x138 office
Re: Visual D 0.3.35 released - semantic analysis considered stable
On 01.01.2013 18:45, Zhenya wrote: On Tuesday, 1 January 2013 at 17:11:31 UTC, thedeemon wrote: After switching to this version it started to build my windows app as a console one. It seems to ignore the subsystem choice, I don't see any mention of -L/SUBSYSTEM: in generated build scripts anymore. Previously I had 0.3.33, I guess, which compiled and linked in one go, not in separate steps, it worked fine. +1 I have the same problem.But it was alright when I used 0.3.34. Fixed here: http://www.dsource.org/projects/visuald/browser/downloads/VisualD-v0.3.36rc2.exe
Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release
Al 03/01/13 09:26, En/na Russel Winder ha escrit: On Wed, 2013-01-02 at 20:31 +0100, Jordi Sayol wrote: […] Walter, to avoid this problem you can install a rolling release like Linux Mint Debian Edition, based on Debian testing. You just need to keep it upgraded with mintUpdate manager (shield on panel). Read the Update pack info before. Sadly Debian Testing, outside of a freeze period prior to a Stable release, has this habit of allowing Britney to delete important packages. Despite the statements put out by Debian, Debian Testing is not a viable rolling release. Debian Unstable is the only viable rolling release. Even then during a freeze it is irritating. Has Linux Mint Debian Edition got a fix for this problem with Debian Testing? 1. LMDE is not Debian Testing, it's based on Debian Testing (not shared repositories). 2. They update differently. Debian Testing constantly receive updates. Instead, LMDE releases “Update Packs” every few months (tested snapshots of Debian Testing). So we can call it semi-rolling release. 3. LMDE has not deadline, unlike Debian Stable, Ubuntu, Fedora, OpenSUSE, etc. Anyway, nobody is forced to use it. Until today, I've not found yet a perfect Linux release. Best regards, -- Jordi Sayol
Re: UIs for Linux [ was Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release ]
On 3 January 2013 09:29, Russel Winder rus...@winder.org.uk wrote: On Thu, 2013-01-03 at 00:34 -0800, Walter Bright wrote: On 1/3/2013 12:25 AM, Dmitry Olshansky wrote: 1/3/2013 12:22 PM, Russel Winder пишет: I threw in the towel on Ubuntu when Unity came out as the default UI. Going OT but can't agree more :) I use a command prompt, and don't particular care about the UI g. There was a revolution in Debian, Ubuntu, and Fedora that will affect you even if you are just a command line person (as I am). Ubuntu moved to Unity which only Canonical staff seem to like. Debian and Fedora I don't know, there are many users out there who rather like Unity too... stuck with GNOME 3 and the Gnome Shell, which many people hate but Debian did switch to XFCE as the default desktop environment in August, and I think Mint forked Gnome 2. There's a lot a distribution can do or can switch to, so they are not really stuck at all. actually a lot of people (including me now, but not originally) really prefer over GNOME 2. Various high profile people (cf. Linus Torvalds) panned GNOME Shell and skipped off to XFCE on GNOME 3 and then KDE. His attack on GNOME Shell was a bit OTT, but his move to KDE is entirely his choice. Doesn't he just keep on switching between Gnome2. Gnome3, XFCE and KDE once every 2 months? Every now and then makes a comment that things are better, but ultimately is annoyed that right click doesn't do what he wants it to do before going away and doing what he is best at. Even if you just manage command line terminals, the evolution will hit you. It's analogous to the way Windows 7 evolved into Windows 8, but not so revolutionary. Looks like a child made it. I tested Server 2012 in a VM, couldn't find the start menu until a colleague kindly pointed out that I need to put the cursor in a very peculiar place in the bottom left hand side of the screen that is rather difficult to get to if you are accessing via a console window... Well done Microsoft, once again you've reaffirmed all the reasons for dropping you in 2005... and gave me some new ones along the way too. ;) Regards -- Iain Buclaw *(p e ? p++ : p) = (c 0x0f) + '0';
Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release
On 1/3/13 3:32 AM, Walter Bright wrote: On 1/2/2013 11:53 PM, Russel Winder wrote: On Wed, 2013-01-02 at 13:18 -0800, Walter Bright wrote: […] I don't store email on the server, I store it locally. I think that this is at the heart of your mail problems. It means you rely on one and only one computer for email. I would find this unworkable: I find IMAP the only solution that works for me and my collection of laptops and workstation. This has the dies effect of the data stored on the client being removable because it is reconstructible. I know. On the other hand, you have control over your email data. FWIW it's all an illusion. Mail is sent unsecured so securing the mail sent and received is futile. Andrei
Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release
deadalnix: I still have code broken all over the place. D2 is getting its corner case problems sorted out and fixed, but this still causes some breakage in user code. As more people use D2, issues are found, discussed and fixed, the breakages will get more and more uncommon. Bye, bearophile
Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release
On Thursday, 3 January 2013 at 16:43:06 UTC, bearophile wrote: deadalnix: I still have code broken all over the place. D2 is getting its corner case problems sorted out and fixed, but this still causes some breakage in user code. As more people use D2, issues are found, discussed and fixed, the breakages will get more and more uncommon. Is this breakage intended ? To me it doesn't make sense, the generated code is : (Bar bar = Bar.init; , bar).this()
Re: vibe.d 0.7.10 released
Am 03.01.2013 11:54, schrieb Russel Winder: May I suggest you need to do some marketing against: node.js vert.x goweb revel Play! Django Grails Ruby on Rails Flask Sinatra Ratpack Why would anyone want to use vibe.d in preference to any of the above? Is there a lightning talk I can do at ACCU, PyCon UK, Gr8Conf, GGX, EuroPython, etc. to show that the pet Web framework/Web toolkit of the language of the conference is rubbish in comparison to that of D? I'd say what mist said earlier is the main list of fundamental goodies. It surely can't beat some of the really popular frameworks in terms of pure feature richness (be it through extension libraries or not), but for me it provides a very appealing combination of the individual choices plus the great advantage of being in D. ...D arguably being an advantage in itself compared to many of the other languages, but also because I'm using vibe.d in a larger context - for example in GUI applications(*) - where switching languages for certain operations would not really be practical. I think for almost all of the frameworks you mentioned it is possible to find some compelling advantages of vibe.d/D (of course also disadvantages, be it just missing features). It also depends a lot on the language that is used. Having a nice comparison in terms of architecture/design, performance and features would definitely be nice to have and I'd really /like/ to spend more time trying to convince people coming from other languages and all. But during the last months my workload was (and will stay for a while) far too high to be able to spend adequate time on things like these. Priorities unfortunately just don't permit this right now. (*) GUI event loop integration is (currently limited to Windows) AFAIK a quite unique property of the framework.
Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release
On 01/01/2013 03:46 PM, Walter Bright wrote: 1. the dlang.org isn't updated yet. Is the change log available somewhere else? I want to spread the news but it is not very interesting without knowing what has changed. :) Ali
Re: Visual D 0.3.35 released - semantic analysis considered stable
Fixed here: http://www.dsource.org/projects/visuald/browser/downloads/VisualD-v0.3.36rc2.exe Fixed indeed. Thanks a lot!
Re: Managing email [ was Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release ]
On 1/3/2013 1:22 AM, Russel Winder wrote: I don't see that local or server-based storage makes any difference to the ability to manage email. But maybe I am missing something about your particular workflow. 1. I control the backups 2. Third parties don't have access to my email history. I don't care what their privacy policy says - if they have it, they will use it as they please. You have no way to even discover what they do with it 3. I've had email servers controlled by others go dark, and poof, all email gone 4. I *need* my old email. More than once it has saved me from a lawsuit
Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release
On 1/3/2013 8:28 AM, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote: On 1/3/13 3:32 AM, Walter Bright wrote: I know. On the other hand, you have control over your email data. FWIW it's all an illusion. Mail is sent unsecured so securing the mail sent and received is futile. I know it doesn't guarantee that there aren't copies stored on government servers and various server backups. But if it is only on a magtape stored in some subbasement, it makes it much harder for someone to casually go spelunking in my old emails.
Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release
On 1/3/2013 5:20 AM, Matthew Caron wrote: On 01/02/2013 04:18 PM, Walter Bright wrote: Why would you need to? If your mail store is IMAP, just let it rebuild. I don't store email on the server, I store it locally. I gave that up years ago when I ended up with more than one device. Too much did I get that email on my laptop or my desktop? And now with tablet, phone, laptop, desktop, and several kiosk machines around the house (because how else do you watch Firefly whilst loading custom hunting ammunition in the gun room?) and then the device proliferation continues... I know, it's a pain. On the other hand, I don't feel the need to write emails when I'm about town. Generally, only when I'm on a trip is this a problem, and my email client then is set to not automatically delete email from the server when downloaded. scp -rp ~/.thunderbird target machine will shove your whole TB directory to the new box. Doesn't work on Windows. Why not? The directory may be different, but the philosophy should still hold. Just install ssh/sshd from cygwin and you're set. It's different on every machine was my point. Again, though, the address book import/export works the same, and I don't have to google thunderbird for specific instructions for each OS.
Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release
On Thursday, January 03, 2013 17:59:22 deadalnix wrote: On Thursday, 3 January 2013 at 16:43:06 UTC, bearophile wrote: deadalnix: I still have code broken all over the place. D2 is getting its corner case problems sorted out and fixed, but this still causes some breakage in user code. As more people use D2, issues are found, discussed and fixed, the breakages will get more and more uncommon. Is this breakage intended ? To me it doesn't make sense, the generated code is : (Bar bar = Bar.init; , bar).this() It is most definitely intended. ref requires an lvalue. A struct literal is a temporary and therefore should be an rvalue, not an lvalue. Before, you had the stupid situation of foo(Bar()); //compiles foo(funcWhichReturnsBar()); //fails to compile Both are dealing with temporaries, so both should be rvalues, and neither should compile. You need an actual variable or other non-temporary memory location (e.g. dereferenced pointer) if you want to pass an argument to a ref function. The previous behavior was broken and should have been fixed ages ago. - Jonathan M Davis
Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release
On 1/3/2013 2:17 AM, Russel Winder wrote: The very existence of TRIM indicates a systemic problem. I think you misunderstand what TRIM is. Nobody anticipated a need for TRIM before SSDs, so no operating system issued TRIM commands. It's like saying C has a systemic problem because it doesn't support virtual function calls.
Re: vibe.d 0.7.10 released
Great news, keep up the good work! Last month I used previous version to make a simple online app for one contest. I developed in Windows and deployed in Linux (a small VPS, installed dmd from some package and vibe.d from the zip archive). I had only a few hours to make that app and everything worked very smoothly. The app is still running and after a few weeks of work its memory usage is still just a few MBs, and CPU load was always close to 0% (I don't have much traffic there though). Thank you for a great product! My only nuisance was a clash of some DLLs in the path between vibe.d and Visual-D. After adding vibe.d dir to system path Visual-D started to crash. Have to keep them separated.
Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release
Am Thu, 03 Jan 2013 17:43:03 +0100 schrieb bearophile bearophileh...@lycos.com: deadalnix: I still have code broken all over the place. D2 is getting its corner case problems sorted out and fixed, but this still causes some breakage in user code. As more people use D2, issues are found, discussed and fixed, the breakages will get more and more uncommon. Bye, bearophile I agree. But we should probably start shipping minor releases. For example regression fixes in 2.061 in the next 2 weeks could be merged into the 2.061 branch as well and we could ship a 2.061.1 release with those fixes.
Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release
On 1/3/2013 3:27 AM, Jacob Carlborg wrote: I can also add that the latest upgrades I have performed I cloned the hard drive containing the OS. Then I perform the upgrade on the clone, if everything works ok I either run the clone instead or does the same on the original disk. That's probably the best idea.
Re: Managing email [ was Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release ]
On Thursday, January 03, 2013 10:26:51 Walter Bright wrote: 2. Third parties don't have access to my email history. I don't care what their privacy policy says - if they have it, they will use it as they please. You have no way to even discover what they do with it Unless you're managing your own e-mail server (which you may be doing - I have no idea), then even if you store your e-mail locally and delete it from the server, you're still not saved from this. Just because it's deleted from your e-mail account doesn't mean that they don't still have copies, just that you don't have access anymore. Of course, if you're managing your own e-mail server, then I don't know what you'd gain from storing it locally instead of keeping it on the server. - Jonathan M Davis
Re: Re TRIM Support [was Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release]
On 1/3/2013 2:40 AM, Russel Winder wrote: On Thu, 2013-01-03 at 01:26 -0800, Walter Bright wrote: […] Windows 7 has TRIM support, Windows XP does not. I have an SSD drive in an XP machine, it runs as slow as a spinning disk. An SSD in Win7, with TRIM, runs like lightning. Linux had TRIM support since 2008, but until late 2010 it wasn't easy to work with. Since then ( 2.6.33) Linux support for TRIM has been fine as long as you use ext4 filestores. You just have to add the discard property to the partition mount in fstab. Unfortunately, I'm the Ubuntu user who sticks an SSD drive into the machine, and then pushes the button Install Ubuntu!. What do I get? What you say is like the bad older versions of Ubuntu, which would not recognize my screen. I always had to edit some config file that changed location and contents with every new version, and the actual commands to write in there were impossible to find documentation on. So it was trying random things, hoping you wouldn't bork it so bad you couldn't see anything on the display. The newer Ubuntus, thankfully, just work with the display.
Re: Managing email [ was Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release ]
On Thu, 2013-01-03 at 10:26 -0800, Walter Bright wrote: […] 1. I control the backups I run my own SMTP and IMAP server, including it's backing up. I like control! 2. Third parties don't have access to my email history. I don't care what their privacy policy says - if they have it, they will use it as they please. You have no way to even discover what they do with it I run my own SMTP and IMAP server, so no third party. The NSA have all emails, no matter who else has them. 3. I've had email servers controlled by others go dark, and poof, all email gone As I run my own SMTP and IMAP server, if it goes dark then either my server blew up or my ISP disconnected me. Email not gone due to backup strategy :-) 4. I *need* my old email. More than once it has saved me from a lawsuit I run my own SMTP and IMAP server, including it's backing up. Old email for some threads is definitely worth keeping. I agree with not relying on an email service such as Google, etc. -- Russel. = Dr Russel Winder t: +44 20 7585 2200 voip: sip:russel.win...@ekiga.net 41 Buckmaster Roadm: +44 7770 465 077 xmpp: rus...@winder.org.uk London SW11 1EN, UK w: www.russel.org.uk skype: russel_winder signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: Managing email [ was Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release ]
On 01/03/2013 01:26 PM, Walter Bright wrote: On 1/3/2013 1:22 AM, Russel Winder wrote: I don't see that local or server-based storage makes any difference to the ability to manage email. But maybe I am missing something about your particular workflow. 1. I control the backups The hosting company I use (csoft.net) has ssh access so, in addition to their backups, I go in once and month and run one was well. 2. Third parties don't have access to my email history. I don't care what their privacy policy says - if they have it, they will use it as they please. You have no way to even discover what they do with it Unless you encrypt all your email, anything that goes to and fro is subject to snooping. Now, you'll likely make a valid point about them not having *all* the history, and this is a fair point. However, I assume that everyone has everything I've ever sent in the clear. After all, you don't think all those acres of computers under various agencies' headquarters are running SETI@Home, do you? Now, where did I leave my tinfoil hat... 3. I've had email servers controlled by others go dark, and poof, all email gone That's what backups are for. You could also run a fetchmail process locally to sync at a more rapid speed, so you get a local copy of everything and get the benefit of cross-device syncing. 4. I *need* my old email. More than once it has saved me from a lawsuit No argument there. I have stuff going back to 1995 or so (and, ironically, the way I migrated from one mail client to another was to shove a boatload of POP email up to IMAP then leave it there), because there was no export function - which is what started this conversation in the first place! -- Matthew Caron, Software Build Engineer Sixnet, a Red Lion business | www.sixnet.com +1 (518) 877-5173 x138 office
Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release
On 01/03/2013 01:36 PM, Walter Bright wrote: On 1/3/2013 3:27 AM, Jacob Carlborg wrote: I can also add that the latest upgrades I have performed I cloned the hard drive containing the OS. Then I perform the upgrade on the clone, if everything works ok I either run the clone instead or does the same on the original disk. That's probably the best idea. A bootable rescue CD containing ddrescue is excellent in this regard. I've been using SystemRescueCD of late: http://www.sysresccd.org/SystemRescueCd_Homepage I image my Windows machine using ddrescue because reinstalling Linux takes 2 hours - reinstalling Windows takes 2 weeks. :-) -- Matthew Caron, Software Build Engineer Sixnet, a Red Lion business | www.sixnet.com +1 (518) 877-5173 x138 office
Re: Managing email [ was Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release ]
On 1/3/2013 10:53 AM, Russel Winder wrote: On Thu, 2013-01-03 at 10:26 -0800, Walter Bright wrote: […] 1. I control the backups I run my own SMTP and IMAP server, including it's backing up. I like control! I agree that is the best solution.
Re: Managing email [ was Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release ]
On 1/3/2013 10:41 AM, Jonathan M Davis wrote: Unless you're managing your own e-mail server (which you may be doing - I have no idea), then even if you store your e-mail locally and delete it from the server, you're still not saved from this. I know - but it's less likely, and most ISPs delete that stuff after a few months.
Re: Managing email [ was Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release ]
On 1/3/13 1:53 PM, Russel Winder wrote: On Thu, 2013-01-03 at 10:26 -0800, Walter Bright wrote: […] 1. I control the backups I run my own SMTP and IMAP server, including it's backing up. I like control! 2. Third parties don't have access to my email history. I don't care what their privacy policy says - if they have it, they will use it as they please. You have no way to even discover what they do with it I run my own SMTP and IMAP server, so no third party. The NSA have all emails, no matter who else has them. 3. I've had email servers controlled by others go dark, and poof, all email gone As I run my own SMTP and IMAP server, if it goes dark then either my server blew up or my ISP disconnected me. Email not gone due to backup strategy :-) 4. I *need* my old email. More than once it has saved me from a lawsuit I run my own SMTP and IMAP server, including it's backing up. Old email for some threads is definitely worth keeping. I agree with not relying on an email service such as Google, etc. Whoa. Four instances I run my own SMTP and IMAP server in about as many paragraphs. You must feel quite strongly about that... Andrei I don't yet run my own SMTP and IMAP server Alexandrescu
Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release
On Thursday, January 03, 2013 10:49:08 Walter Bright wrote: On 1/3/2013 10:11 AM, Ali Çehreli wrote: On 01/01/2013 03:46 PM, Walter Bright wrote: 1. the dlang.org isn't updated yet. Is the change log available somewhere else? I want to spread the news but it is not very interesting without knowing what has changed. :) http://dlang.org/changelog.html Oh. Those are links. I was wondering when the data was actually going to be posted. When compared to the previous ones, it looks like there's only headers with no information. But what about release notes then? There were several notes in the changelog.d file along those lines which aren't being distributed with how the changelog is currently being presented. For instance, the first few items have all been lost: $(LI std.string: $(RED The implementations of std.string.format and string.sformat have been replaced with improved implementations which conform to writef. In some, rare cases, this will break code. Please see the documentation for std.string.format and std.string.sformat for details.)) $(LI std.string.format now works in CTFE.) $(LI std.range.hasSlicing has been made stricter in an effort to make it more reliable. opSlice for infinite ranges must now return the result of std.range.take, and any range with slicing which supports $(D $) must now support it with the same semantics as arrays (including supporting subtraction for finite ranges).) $(LI std.range.isRandomAccessRange now requires hasLength for finite ranges, as it makes no sense for such ranges not to define length and many random-access algorithms rely on length.) In fact, I think that _every_ item in Phobos' changelog.d was lost. That information needs to be presented to users. - Jonathan M Davis
Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release
On Thursday, 3 January 2013 at 19:36:31 UTC, Jonathan M Davis wrote: In fact, I think that _every_ item in Phobos' changelog.d was lost. That information needs to be presented to users. Agreed – while it is great to finally see the manually maintained list of fixed bugs being replaced with a Bugzilla query, there will always be reasons for well-curated release notes to exist: they are invaluable for discussing high-level changes, drawing attention to (future) breaking changes, … David
Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release
Johannes Pfau, el 3 de January a las 19:37 me escribiste: Am Thu, 03 Jan 2013 17:43:03 +0100 schrieb bearophile bearophileh...@lycos.com: deadalnix: I still have code broken all over the place. D2 is getting its corner case problems sorted out and fixed, but this still causes some breakage in user code. As more people use D2, issues are found, discussed and fixed, the breakages will get more and more uncommon. Bye, bearophile I agree. But we should probably start shipping minor releases. For example regression fixes in 2.061 in the next 2 weeks could be merged into the 2.061 branch as well and we could ship a 2.061.1 release with those fixes. +1 Keepping a branch for each release would make this dead easy. -- Leandro Lucarella (AKA luca) http://llucax.com.ar/ -- GPG Key: 5F5A8D05 (F8CD F9A7 BF00 5431 4145 104C 949E BFB6 5F5A 8D05) -- El techo de mi cuarto lleno de estrellas
Re: Managing email [ was Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release ]
On 2013-01-03 19:53, Russel Winder wrote: On Thu, 2013-01-03 at 10:26 -0800, Walter Bright wrote: […] 1. I control the backups I run my own SMTP and IMAP server, including it's backing up. I like control! Next step: becoming your own ISP ? -- /Jacob Carlborg
Re: vibe.d 0.7.10 released
Am 03.01.2013 19:37, schrieb thedeemon: Great news, keep up the good work! Last month I used previous version to make a simple online app for one contest. I developed in Windows and deployed in Linux (a small VPS, installed dmd from some package and vibe.d from the zip archive). I had only a few hours to make that app and everything worked very smoothly. The app is still running and after a few weeks of work its memory usage is still just a few MBs, and CPU load was always close to 0% (I don't have much traffic there though). Thank you for a great product! Sounds great! My experience is also quite trouble-free by now (except for one project that has some kind of memory leak, but I'm not sure who is at fault there). It needs some serious stress testing though, before I'd declare it actually stable (version 0.8.0 an on will be the first stable branch). My only nuisance was a clash of some DLLs in the path between vibe.d and Visual-D. After adding vibe.d dir to system path Visual-D started to crash. Have to keep them separated. That's interesting. I do have occasional crashes in VisualD, but never attributed it to that combination. Do you know any specifics about which DLL might be in conflict? I checked with dependency walker and couldn't see anything suspicious.
Re: Managing email [ was Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release ]
On Thu, 2013-01-03 at 14:17 -0500, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote: […] Whoa. Four instances I run my own SMTP and IMAP server in about as many paragraphs. You must feel quite strongly about that... :-) Originally I was doing it to make sure I could sys admin Apache/Postfix/Dovecot (previously Courier IMAP) then I realized it was so straightforward there was little point in using a hosting agent. I had a system crash whilst away a couple of years ago and had to use GMail for a few days. It became apparent that whatever the terms of service say, Google were scanning all emails and using the data to create an advertising profile which was clearly then used to generate income for Google. Clearly this is the quid pro quo for getting free email, but I don't like the price. Worse I used to have one identity with Google Accounts, but having created a Google Mail account, Google switched the primary key to the Google Mail identifier and will not allow that to be changed. Facebook tried the same trick. This is really annoying and lowers the value of the brands for me. Result, I have my server hardware here and run all the services myself locally. -- Russel. = Dr Russel Winder t: +44 20 7585 2200 voip: sip:russel.win...@ekiga.net 41 Buckmaster Roadm: +44 7770 465 077 xmpp: rus...@winder.org.uk London SW11 1EN, UK w: www.russel.org.uk skype: russel_winder signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release
On Thu, Jan 3, 2013 at 9:00 PM, David Nadlinger s...@klickverbot.at wrote: On Thursday, 3 January 2013 at 19:36:31 UTC, Jonathan M Davis wrote: In fact, I think that _every_ item in Phobos' changelog.d was lost. That information needs to be presented to users. Agreed – while it is great to finally see the manually maintained list of fixed bugs being replaced with a Bugzilla query, there will always be reasons for well-curated release notes to exist: they are invaluable for discussing high-level changes, drawing attention to (future) breaking changes, … For example, UDA... They seem interesting, but I don't remember all the discussions and now that the dust settled somewhat, I'd like to know what's the syntax, how they are inspected. I used the link Walter (http://dlang.org/changelog.html) provided and all I could find is http://d.puremagic.com/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=9222 That's a bit short... How can someone coming to D today know this language has user-defined attributes?
Re: Managing email [ was Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release ]
On Thu, 2013-01-03 at 21:08 +0100, Jacob Carlborg wrote: […] Next step: becoming your own ISP ? Define ISP ;-) -- Russel. = Dr Russel Winder t: +44 20 7585 2200 voip: sip:russel.win...@ekiga.net 41 Buckmaster Roadm: +44 7770 465 077 xmpp: rus...@winder.org.uk London SW11 1EN, UK w: www.russel.org.uk skype: russel_winder signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: XING Gruppe D Programming Language - XING group D Programming Language
On Wednesday, 2 January 2013 at 18:38:08 UTC, notna wrote: On 02.01.2013 19:24, Chris wrote: A D-ating site? :-) :D Hopefully on the way to something like that... then mainly for business dating ;) Ha, cool, thanks for creating this group!
Re: Managing email [ was Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release ]
04-Jan-2013 00:12, Russel Winder пишет: On Thu, 2013-01-03 at 21:08 +0100, Jacob Carlborg wrote: […] Next step: becoming your own ISP ? Define ISP ;-) Then go for autonomous system aka AS g -- Dmitry Olshansky
Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release
Walter Bright, el 1 de January a las 15:46 me escribiste: The big news is Win64 is now supported (in alpha). http://www.digitalmars.com/d/download.html D 1.076 changelog: http://www.digitalmars.com/d/1.0/changelog.html BTW, Changelogs looks extremely naked now, I think release notes are really needed now. Al least for new features. Is far from ideal to make people go through a bug report to know how they can adapt their code to new features. And sometimes bug reports are not updated on how things turned out, for example #7041[1], a feature I implemented myself. The bug report is outdated AFAIK, the title talks about a -di flags which doesn't even exist, you actually have to go through the pull request[2] to see what the hell is going on. And even then the behaviour of that pull request was changed in a subsequent one[3], and there are no visible links between those 2 pull requests. So, unless you are a private investigator, you will have a very hard time to know that what really happened is that now DMD show deprecations as a warning message (compilation is not halted anymore) by default, and there are 2 new compiler flags, -de (to get the old default behaviour to make deprecation to be errors) and -dw, to explicitly enable the new default behaviour (make them warnings) in case you changed it in a config file and want to override it in the command line (so people wanting the old behaviour by default can put -de in the dmd.conf file and they can still override that default by using -dw when compiling). The -d flag stay the same (silently ignore any deprecated feature or symbol). Anyway, at least for this particular change, the changelog is basically useless, and I don't think the bug report is the right place to inform users about compiler changes. Users don't care about the history and discussion around a change, they just only want to know how to take advantage of new features and how to fix their code (possibly with some exceptions of course, in which case they can still go back to the bug report and pull requests). Glad that the long waited new release is out, though, and the release process is still improving :) Happy new year to everyone! [1] http://d.puremagic.com/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=7041 [2] https://github.com/D-Programming-Language/dmd/pull/1185 [3] https://github.com/D-Programming-Language/dmd/pull/1287 -- Leandro Lucarella (AKA luca) http://llucax.com.ar/ -- GPG Key: 5F5A8D05 (F8CD F9A7 BF00 5431 4145 104C 949E BFB6 5F5A 8D05) -- UNA ARTISTA HACE JABONES CON SU PROPIA GRASA LUEGO DE UNA LIPOSUCCION -- Crónica TV
Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release
On 13-01-03 3:11 PM, Philippe Sigaud wrote: On Thu, Jan 3, 2013 at 9:00 PM, David Nadlinger s...@klickverbot.at mailto:s...@klickverbot.at wrote: On Thursday, 3 January 2013 at 19:36:31 UTC, Jonathan M Davis wrote: In fact, I think that _every_ item in Phobos' changelog.d was lost. That information needs to be presented to users. Agreed – while it is great to finally see the manually maintained list of fixed bugs being replaced with a Bugzilla query, there will always be reasons for well-curated release notes to exist: they are invaluable for discussing high-level changes, drawing attention to (future) breaking changes, … For example, UDA... They seem interesting, but I don't remember all the discussions and now that the dust settled somewhat, I'd like to know what's the syntax, how they are inspected. I used the link Walter (http://dlang.org/changelog.html) provided and all I could find is http://d.puremagic.com/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=9222 FWIW, you can see some info here: http://forum.dlang.org/thread/k7afq6$2832$1...@digitalmars.com That's a bit short... How can someone coming to D today know this language has user-defined attributes? But, yes, I agree, someone (like me) that has been watching D for long time, used it a very little, read the books but never actually had the time to use it (for all sorts of reasons), will find that the best way is to read the newsgroup and invest quite a bit of time. I would say, the best thing would be to implement release notes similar to the way the Python project does it would be great. I have been using Python for a while and I find their documentation and processes awesome. Is there something similar for D? /Pierre
Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release
On 3 January 2013 20:27, Leandro Lucarella l...@llucax.com.ar wrote: Walter Bright, el 1 de January a las 15:46 me escribiste: The big news is Win64 is now supported (in alpha). http://www.digitalmars.com/d/download.html D 1.076 changelog: http://www.digitalmars.com/d/1.0/changelog.html BTW, Changelogs looks extremely naked now, I think release notes are really needed now. Al least for new features. Is far from ideal to make people go through a bug report to know how they can adapt their code to new features. Each new language feature should have a corresponding link to http://dlang.org/language-reference.html -- Iain Buclaw *(p e ? p++ : p) = (c 0x0f) + '0';
Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release
On 01/03/2013 10:49 AM, Walter Bright wrote: On 1/3/2013 10:11 AM, Ali Çehreli wrote: On 01/01/2013 03:46 PM, Walter Bright wrote: 1. the dlang.org isn't updated yet. Is the change log available somewhere else? I want to spread the news but it is not very interesting without knowing what has changed. :) http://dlang.org/changelog.html That's what I have been looking at. The top of the page was saying 2.060 and had the changelist for 2.060. The problem is solved for me only after I told my browser to refresh that page. :-/ Ali
Re: vibe.d 0.7.10 released
Pretty cool stuff, congratulations. +1)
Re: vibe.d 0.7.10 released
On Thu, 03 Jan 2013 12:11:23 +0100 mist n...@none.none wrote: Last time I was performance testing vibe it was almost 4x faster than node.js and 1.5 faster than similar Erlang framework (can't remember its name now). Plus all static typing and sane async syntax goodies as a cherry on top. Was enough to convince me, but other language lovers will probably need more arguments :) Another big advantage of Vibe.d (aside from being able to use a sane language: D.) is the way that the event-loop/fibers/async-IO works. Doing IO in Vibe.d (or at least just network IO at the moment, AIUI) looks like synchronous code, and is written just like synchronous code, but *behind the scenes* it will do it asynchronously and yield to another fiber (ie another request) while it waits. (In other words, it's like Node.js, except it's actually fast and easy, instead of awkward and slow-by-default.) Sooo fucking awesome!!! That and being able to write everything in D are Vibe.d's two killer features for me.
Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release
On Thursday, 3 January 2013 at 18:36:32 UTC, Jonathan M Davis
wrote:
On Thursday, January 03, 2013 17:59:22 deadalnix wrote:
On Thursday, 3 January 2013 at 16:43:06 UTC, bearophile wrote:
deadalnix:
I still have code broken all over the place.
D2 is getting its corner case problems sorted out and fixed,
but this still causes some breakage in user code. As more
people use D2, issues are found, discussed and fixed, the
breakages will get more and more uncommon.
Is this breakage intended ? To me it doesn't make sense, the
generated code is :
(Bar bar = Bar.init; , bar).this()
It is most definitely intended. ref requires an lvalue. A
struct literal is a
temporary and therefore should be an rvalue, not an lvalue.
struct Bar {
uint i;
this(uint foo) {
import std.stdio;
writeln(this);
}
}
void main() {
Bar(0);
}
Before, you had the stupid situation of
foo(Bar()); //compiles
foo(funcWhichReturnsBar()); //fails to compile
Both are dealing with temporaries, so both should be rvalues,
and neither
should compile. You need an actual variable or other
non-temporary memory
location (e.g. dereferenced pointer) if you want to pass an
argument to a ref
function. The previous behavior was broken and should have been
fixed ages ago.
- Jonathan M Davis
The compiler actually create this storage to pass it to the
constructor. Why can't it pass it to something else ?
Re: XING Gruppe D Programming Language - XING group D Programming Language
Well, come ;) Btw, many of us have to thank you... for the fantastic Mono-D!!! On 03.01.2013 21:18, alex wrote: Ha, cool, thanks for creating this group!
Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release
Iain Buclaw, el 3 de January a las 21:48 me escribiste: On 3 January 2013 20:27, Leandro Lucarella l...@llucax.com.ar wrote: Walter Bright, el 1 de January a las 15:46 me escribiste: The big news is Win64 is now supported (in alpha). http://www.digitalmars.com/d/download.html D 1.076 changelog: http://www.digitalmars.com/d/1.0/changelog.html BTW, Changelogs looks extremely naked now, I think release notes are really needed now. Al least for new features. Is far from ideal to make people go through a bug report to know how they can adapt their code to new features. Each new language feature should have a corresponding link to http://dlang.org/language-reference.html Where? In the bug report? If so, I think it is extremely odd and user unfriendly. If is in the releases notes, perfect, but even then I think it would be nice to include a short summary of the new feature, not just a link (someone else mentioned Python release notes and I agree that Python is an excellent example of how I, as an user, would like to see it in D too). -- Leandro Lucarella (AKA luca) http://llucax.com.ar/ -- GPG Key: 5F5A8D05 (F8CD F9A7 BF00 5431 4145 104C 949E BFB6 5F5A 8D05) -- A veces quisiera ser un auto, para chocar como choco siendo humano, para romperme en mil pedazos.
Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release
On Tuesday, 1 January 2013 at 23:46:32 UTC, Walter Bright wrote: The big news is Win64 is now supported (in alpha). http://www.digitalmars.com/d/download.html D 1.076 changelog: http://www.digitalmars.com/d/1.0/changelog.html A couple issues: 1. the dlang.org isn't updated yet. 2. the OS X package hasn't been built yet (problems with the package script). I hope to get these resolved shortly. In the meantime, enjoy and have a Happy D Year! Ran into some trouble to make it work, but awesome news : the GC collecting live stuff problem is gone (most likely a closure bug rather than a GC bug). That is awesome !
Re: Managing email [ was Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release ]
On 1/3/2013 11:17 AM, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote: Andrei I don't yet run my own SMTP and IMAP server Alexandrescu Sheesh. How can you ever hold your head up again after that admission?
Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release
On 1/3/2013 11:36 AM, Jonathan M Davis wrote: Oh. Those are links. I was wondering when the data was actually going to be posted. When compared to the previous ones, it looks like there's only headers with no information. The idea is to add explanatory information to the bugzilla issue being pointed to. Making some effort to clarify the title of the bugzilla issue is also justified. This change to the changelog presentation does require that we up our game with bugzilla - accurate tags (you can see at the top what is being keyed on), accurate titles, and accurate information.
Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release
On 1/3/2013 12:27 PM, Leandro Lucarella wrote: BTW, Changelogs looks extremely naked now, I think release notes are really needed now. Al least for new features. Is far from ideal to make people go through a bug report to know how they can adapt their code to new features. On the other hand, the older way of doing changelogs routinely missed a *lot* of things. Relatively few people doing the pulls would bother to log the changes. I think there were easy double the number of changes showing up in the search than were in the log. And sometimes bug reports are not updated on how things turned out, for example #7041[1], a feature I implemented myself. The bug report is outdated AFAIK, the title talks about a -di flags which doesn't even exist, you actually have to go through the pull request[2] to see what the hell is going on. And even then the behaviour of that pull request was changed in a subsequent one[3], and there are no visible links between those 2 pull requests. Please update that bugzilla issue. As I posted elsewhere in this thread, this method does require upping our game with bugzilla tags, titles, and descriptions. I don't see that it is any *harder* to update the bugzilla issue than it is to provide a brief summary in the changelog. As for what's new, the failure here is the failure to document those changes. This is not a failure of the changelog - it's a failure of the documentation pages. The bugzilla should have a link to the relevant documentation. I do *not* think that a changelog new feature entry takes the place of updating the documentation, and I do not agree with writing the documentation twice (changelog and documentation). Anyway, at least for this particular change, the changelog is basically useless, and I don't think the bug report is the right place to inform users about compiler changes. We've been using bugzilla for a long time to organize enhancement requests. Users don't care about the history and discussion around a change, they just only want to know how to take advantage of new features and how to fix their code (possibly with some exceptions of course, in which case they can still go back to the bug report and pull requests). I agree this new system is imperfect - but I argue it is better than what we were doing before.
Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release
On 1/3/2013 3:38 AM, deadalnix wrote: On Thursday, 3 January 2013 at 01:06:46 UTC, Walter Bright wrote: Please post example to bugzilla. http://d.puremagic.com/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=9263 Thank you. (And whaddya know, Kenji just fixed it!)
Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release
On 1/3/2013 4:22 PM, deadalnix wrote: Ran into some trouble to make it work, but awesome news : the GC collecting live stuff problem is gone (most likely a closure bug rather than a GC bug). There are still a couple of memory-corrupting closure bugs left. Turns out they are rather hard to solve, were found only at the last minute, and have always been there, so I thought it was ok for them to go one more release.
Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release
On Friday, 4 January 2013 at 03:21:46 UTC, Walter Bright wrote: On 1/3/2013 3:38 AM, deadalnix wrote: On Thursday, 3 January 2013 at 01:06:46 UTC, Walter Bright wrote: Please post example to bugzilla. http://d.puremagic.com/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=9263 Thank you. (And whaddya know, Kenji just fixed it!) Excellent. This also demonstrates why a better release process would be nice -- I can either compile with -wi and filter out warnings until 2.062 or roll back to 2.060. Bug fix releases would be super keen. :D But eh, 64 bit support? UDAs? I can hardly complain.* -Bernard. * I'm still going to complain. :P
Re: Managing email [ was Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release ]
On 1/3/13 10:07 PM, Walter Bright wrote: On 1/3/2013 11:17 AM, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote: Andrei I don't yet run my own SMTP and IMAP server Alexandrescu Sheesh. How can you ever hold your head up again after that admission? I actually used to, heh. Communigate Pro they called it, beautiful software. Then understood the email security model better and figured running one's own server doesn't make any sense - sorry Russel :o). Andrei I know better than run my own SMTP/IMAP servers Alexandrescu
Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release
Walter Bright, el 3 de January a las 19:10 me escribiste: On 1/3/2013 11:36 AM, Jonathan M Davis wrote: Oh. Those are links. I was wondering when the data was actually going to be posted. When compared to the previous ones, it looks like there's only headers with no information. The idea is to add explanatory information to the bugzilla issue being pointed to. Please, please, consider adding release notes, at least for new features is not good enough to just use bugzilla links, you need a clear, succinct explanation of the feature. Where would you put it? In the bug report itself? Most of the time is not clear enough by the time the bug is created and the feature is polished after a long discussion. You shouldn't make users go through the entire history of a bug, which is completely internal to the compiler development, to know what have changed. -- Leandro Lucarella (AKA luca) http://llucax.com.ar/ -- GPG Key: 5F5A8D05 (F8CD F9A7 BF00 5431 4145 104C 949E BFB6 5F5A 8D05) -- Cuando le dije si quería bailar conmigo Se puso a hablar de Jung, de Freud y Lacan Mi idiosincracia le causaba mucha gracia Me dijo al girar la cumbiera intelectual
Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release
On Thursday, January 03, 2013 19:10:59 Walter Bright wrote: On 1/3/2013 11:36 AM, Jonathan M Davis wrote: Oh. Those are links. I was wondering when the data was actually going to be posted. When compared to the previous ones, it looks like there's only headers with no information. The idea is to add explanatory information to the bugzilla issue being pointed to. Making some effort to clarify the title of the bugzilla issue is also justified. This change to the changelog presentation does require that we up our game with bugzilla - accurate tags (you can see at the top what is being keyed on), accurate titles, and accurate information. No offense, but that doesn't cut it. Maybe it makes sense to create bugzilla entries for stuff like $(LI std.digest.ripemd: Added RIPEMD-160 digest implementation.) but other lines like $(LI std.string: $(RED The implementations of std.string.format and string.sformat have been replaced with improved implementations which conform to writef. In some, rare cases, this will break code. Please see the documentation for std.string.format and std.string.sformat for details.)) or $(LI std.range.hasSlicing has been made stricter in an effort to make it more reliable. opSlice for infinite ranges must now return the result of std.range.take, and any range with slicing which supports $(D $) must now support it with the same semantics as arrays (including supporting subtraction for finite ranges).) are purely notes which developers should be made aware of which should _not_ be buried in a list of bugzilla entries where most people won't see them (not to mention, how many people do you think actually read through that list of bug fixes; I think that it's mostly the notes that were at the top which people cared about, and now they're gone). If you want to have a release notes section for them separate from the changelog section, fine. But these are notes which should be relatively prominent so that people see them! And they're specifically notes for people to read and not enhancement requests or bug fixes or whatnot. In your zeal to automate the bug fix list, you're throwing away something of real value. Automating the bug list is fine, but don't throw away all of the non-bugzilla stuff that we've been putting in the changelog. - Jonathan M Davis
Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release
On 13-01-03 10:18 PM, Walter Bright wrote: On 1/3/2013 12:27 PM, Leandro Lucarella wrote: BTW, Changelogs looks extremely naked now, I think release notes are really needed now. Al least for new features. Is far from ideal to make people go through a bug report to know how they can adapt their code to new features. On the other hand, the older way of doing changelogs routinely missed a *lot* of things. Relatively few people doing the pulls would bother to log the changes. I think there were easy double the number of changes showing up in the search than were in the log. And sometimes bug reports are not updated on how things turned out, for example #7041[1], a feature I implemented myself. The bug report is outdated AFAIK, the title talks about a -di flags which doesn't even exist, you actually have to go through the pull request[2] to see what the hell is going on. And even then the behaviour of that pull request was changed in a subsequent one[3], and there are no visible links between those 2 pull requests. Please update that bugzilla issue. As I posted elsewhere in this thread, this method does require upping our game with bugzilla tags, titles, and descriptions. I don't see that it is any *harder* to update the bugzilla issue than it is to provide a brief summary in the changelog. As for what's new, the failure here is the failure to document those changes. This is not a failure of the changelog - it's a failure of the documentation pages. The bugzilla should have a link to the relevant documentation. I do *not* think that a changelog new feature entry takes the place of updating the documentation, and I do not agree with writing the documentation twice (changelog and documentation). Anyway, at least for this particular change, the changelog is basically useless, and I don't think the bug report is the right place to inform users about compiler changes. We've been using bugzilla for a long time to organize enhancement requests. Users don't care about the history and discussion around a change, they just only want to know how to take advantage of new features and how to fix their code (possibly with some exceptions of course, in which case they can still go back to the bug report and pull requests). I agree this new system is imperfect - but I argue it is better than what we were doing before. I would agree with you that updating documentation and having access to the exact details is a very good thing to do. And most current developers already using D will most likely be satisfied with this. However, for outsiders like me, that manages development groups and is waiting for D2 to become stable enough to start investing preliminary prototypes in D2 and developing software in house (first for tools while training new developers with it) and given the fact that D2 is still stabilizing, an explicit description of the highlights of the major changes of a new version is a good selling point for the language. I was able to introduce Python in a group that was very conservative and old die-hard C programmers, simply because the documentation of Python was so well done. Each *major* release is fully documented. Now, D is newer, D2 is not yet completely stable yet (not that anything these days is). So maybe I am comparing apples and oranges. Python has lots of changes between official versions (with its own bug tracker with all the details of the various changes), but then they have a *release* version (eg. Python 2.7, Python 3.3, ...) and minor releases on top of those. The model seems to be a little different in D. Will it get closer to a model similar to Python in the future? In the Python model of development it seems easier to create documentations for important releases. I really hope D succeeds in becoming an important programming language; it's got so many nice features and its community is so knowledgeable. A little PR here and there around the releases, where a quick review would identify major breakthrough would probably not hurt D's popularity though. Since I agree on avoiding duplication, would a list of major new features of the release (similar to what existed in previous logs), made of links to the updated documentation, help? Anyway, I know I'm an outsider and have not participated in the development of this incredible language and all wonderful programs that the community came up with. I just wanted to give you some feedback from the outside and, at the same time, thank Walter all the D community for the wonderful work that has been done! /Pierre
Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release
On Thursday, January 03, 2013 19:18:25 Walter Bright wrote: As for what's new, the failure here is the failure to document those changes. This is not a failure of the changelog - it's a failure of the documentation pages. The bugzilla should have a link to the relevant documentation. I do *not* think that a changelog new feature entry takes the place of updating the documentation, and I do not agree with writing the documentation twice (changelog and documentation). In general, the only new features which need to be in the documentation but don't end up there are in dmd. But even then, they need to be in the changelog or release notes - preferrably the release notes, if we're separating them. I expect that very few people will comb through the list of bug fixes. They want to know the highlights, and we should list those. And _no one_ is going to dig through the documentation to try and figure out what changed. So, omitting a new feature entirely from the changelog or release notes because it's been put in the updated documentation makes no sense. The changelog and release notes definitely do _not_ replace proper documentation, but they're a necessary companion to it when new features are added or major changes are made. - Jonathan M Davis
Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release
Walter Bright, el 3 de January a las 19:18 me escribiste: On 1/3/2013 12:27 PM, Leandro Lucarella wrote: BTW, Changelogs looks extremely naked now, I think release notes are really needed now. Al least for new features. Is far from ideal to make people go through a bug report to know how they can adapt their code to new features. On the other hand, the older way of doing changelogs routinely missed a *lot* of things. Relatively few people doing the pulls would bother to log the changes. I think there were easy double the number of changes showing up in the search than were in the log. I agree completely. I'm not saying having a well maintained bug tracker is a bad think! Is great, and is great to be able to automatically list all the bugs fixed in a release. Is think is a huge improvement. I'm just saying is not good enough, there is more room for improvement IMHO. And sometimes bug reports are not updated on how things turned out, for example #7041[1], a feature I implemented myself. The bug report is outdated AFAIK, the title talks about a -di flags which doesn't even exist, you actually have to go through the pull request[2] to see what the hell is going on. And even then the behaviour of that pull request was changed in a subsequent one[3], and there are no visible links between those 2 pull requests. Please update that bugzilla issue. As I posted elsewhere in this thread, this method does require upping our game with bugzilla tags, titles, and descriptions. I don't see that it is any *harder* to update the bugzilla issue than it is to provide a brief summary in the changelog. Is harder for the **user**, not for the developer! I updated all the documentation in the compiler itself and the man page, I just never wrote changelog entries in the documentation. If you really want to make people update all the documentation, you should reject pull requests until they are **complete**. If I missed updating something is because nobody told me I had to. I'll happily update release notes in the future if you tell me where they are. As for what's new, the failure here is the failure to document those changes. This is not a failure of the changelog - it's a failure of the documentation pages. The bugzilla should have a link to the relevant documentation. Please see my other comment. I really think you're getting this wrong. Bugzilla is for internal development, not to inform people about new features. New features might end up being completely different from what the user reported in the first place, and it's very cruel to make users have to read a complete discussion about a feature (or to scroll to the end of a bug report to find a link, or even to click on 2 links for each new/changed feature!). I agree is the same work for a developer to update the documentation, being in bugzilla or in the repository, but having a proper document with at least big changes explained is much more useful to the user (and I think is even easier to edit for the developer). And then, is harder to reject pull request if they don't update some documentation in the same repo the pull request is made than checking some bugzilla report to see if is properly updated. I do *not* think that a changelog new feature entry takes the place of updating the documentation, and I do not agree with writing the documentation twice (changelog and documentation). We agree on this too. I don't know why are you getting the impression I want something else in this matter. Anyway, at least for this particular change, the changelog is basically useless, and I don't think the bug report is the right place to inform users about compiler changes. We've been using bugzilla for a long time to organize enhancement requests. And that's perfect too. Users don't care about the history and discussion around a change, they just only want to know how to take advantage of new features and how to fix their code (possibly with some exceptions of course, in which case they can still go back to the bug report and pull requests). I agree this new system is imperfect - but I argue it is better than what we were doing before. And I'm not suggesting going back to where we were before, just keep improving. What I'm suggesting is: * Keep handling *all* development (bugfixes and new features) through bugzilla * Keep listing bugfixes and new features lists automatically as bugzilla queries (I think it would be better to automatically generate a nicer document with those lists though, but that's just details) * Keep having the complete documentation for new features where it should be (the website/specs). * Add a release notes documents (that could be also the base to announce releases with more details in the e-mail release) which gives a brief summary of the focus of the current release and any important changes visible to the users. When new features are added, include the link to the proper
Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release
On 1/3/2013 9:54 PM, Pierre Rouleau wrote: However, for outsiders like me, that manages development groups and is waiting for D2 to become stable enough to start investing preliminary prototypes in D2 and developing software in house (first for tools while training new developers with it) and given the fact that D2 is still stabilizing, an explicit description of the highlights of the major changes of a new version is a good selling point for the language. The whatsnew section is pretty short, and it's just a click away. I just don't understand why this is so objectionable.
Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release
On 1/3/2013 9:54 PM, Jonathan M Davis wrote: I do *not* think that a changelog new feature entry takes the place of updating the documentation, and I do not agree with writing the documentation twice (changelog and documentation). In general, the only new features which need to be in the documentation but don't end up there are in dmd. But even then, they need to be in the changelog or release notes - preferrably the release notes, if we're separating them. I expect that very few people will comb through the list of bug fixes. New features are not bug fixes. That's why they're listed separately, and there aren't that many of them. They want to know the highlights, and we should list those. And _no one_ is going to dig through the documentation to try and figure out what changed. Nobody is asking them to. The changelog has a pointer to a proper list of them. So, omitting a new feature entirely from the changelog or release notes because it's been put in the updated documentation makes no sense. I don't believe I suggested that. I suggested adding a link in the enhancement request bugzilla entry to the right place in the documentation. That way, the documentation only has to be done once. A summary can be added to the bugzilla issue. The changelog and release notes definitely do _not_ replace proper documentation, but they're a necessary companion to it when new features are added or major changes are made. The changelog list of new features has not gone away. Just click on where it says New/Changed Features at: http://dlang.org/changelog.html. And here's the list: http://d.puremagic.com/issues/buglist.cgi?chfieldto=2012-12-31query_format=advancedchfield=resolutionchfieldfrom=2012-08-02chfieldvalue=FIXEDbug_severity=enhancementbug_status=RESOLVEDversion=D2version=D1%20%26%20D2resolution=FIXEDproduct=D Please note that the documentation that was there before in the changelog, but with no corresponding bugzilla entry, has been cut pasted into the enhancement request bugzilla entry that I created for it. Nothing has been lost or removed. In fact, this has pointed out quite a few New/Changed Features that had been omitted from the human curated list. I think that a complete list is better than the buggy, half-assed one we had before. I will certainly concur that a lot (most?) of the titles on the bugzilla enhancement requests kinda suck, but you or I or anyone else can fix them as necessary, and I did fix a few of them.
Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release
On 1/3/2013 9:20 PM, Leandro Lucarella wrote: Examples: http://python.org/download/releases/3.3.0/ I see a list, one line per, with a clickable link. The only real difference is that there's one extra click to get that list in the D changelog, but then it's a list, one line per, with a clickable link for more info. http://llvm.org/releases/3.2/docs/ReleaseNotes.html (this link might be wrong because I can't access the llvm website right now to check) At the moment, that site appears to be down.
Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release
On 1/3/2013 8:51 PM, Leandro Lucarella wrote: Please, please, consider adding release notes, at least for new features is not good enough to just use bugzilla links, you need a clear, succinct explanation of the feature. Where would you put it? In the bug report itself? Most of the time is not clear enough by the time the bug is created and the feature is polished after a long discussion. You shouldn't make users go through the entire history of a bug, which is completely internal to the compiler development, to know what have changed. The titles of the bug reports can and should be edited after the fact. That will help a lot. I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm saying that what you're asking for requires some significant effort from somebody. Nobody has put forth that effort in the past, resulting in the changelog being pretty crummy and woefully incomplete. At least now it is fairly complete. If anyone wants to do a pull request on the changelog to add to it, that would be great.
Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release
On Thursday, January 03, 2013 22:24:34 Walter Bright wrote: Please note that the documentation that was there before in the changelog, but with no corresponding bugzilla entry, has been cut pasted into the enhancement request bugzilla entry that I created for it. Nothing has been lost or removed. And where are items like $(LI std.range.hasSlicing has been made stricter in an effort to make it more reliable. opSlice for infinite ranges must now return the result of std.range.take, and any range with slicing which supports $(D $) must now support it with the same semantics as arrays (including supporting subtraction for finite ranges).) That's something that should be listed prominently, not buried in a long list of bugzilla entries. If you want to put that sort of thing in a separate release notes section, fine. But notes like this do _not_ belong in a list of bugzilla entries. They should be prominently displayed to users. In fact, this has pointed out quite a few New/Changed Features that had been omitted from the human curated list. I think that a complete list is better than the buggy, half-assed one we had before. I will certainly concur that a lot (most?) of the titles on the bugzilla enhancement requests kinda suck, but you or I or anyone else can fix them as necessary, and I did fix a few of them. I'm all for automating the bug fixes, and it makes perfect sense to handle many of the enhancement requests in the same way, but we should have a way to highlight major changes separately from the list of bugzilla entries (which have no indication of prominence or relative importance) as well as an area for giving specific notes to developers when needed (like major changes they should watch out for or impending changes that they should be aware of). If that's a separate release notes section rather than in the changelog itself, so be it, but we've now completely lost the section that we were using for that sort of thing. Instead, it's now simply a link to a bunch of bugzilla entries. - Jonathan M Davis P.S. Also, as a future improvement, we _really_ shouldn't be linking to bugzilla for our list. I've never seen a release notes document or changelog do that in my entire life. It would be _far_ more user friendly to list the changes like we did before with the bug number for each entry linking to the bug report (and it's what most projects to do from what I've seen). Automatically generating the list of bug fixes is great (and a definite step forward), but the current presentation leaves a lot to be desired.
Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release
On 1/3/2013 9:49 PM, Jonathan M Davis wrote: but other lines like $(LI std.string: $(RED The implementations of std.string.format and string.sformat have been replaced with improved implementations which conform to writef. In some, rare cases, this will break code. Please see the documentation for std.string.format and std.string.sformat for details.)) Yes, you can put this in as the bugzilla title, though I'd tighten it up a little. $(LI std.range.hasSlicing has been made stricter in an effort to make it more reliable. opSlice for infinite ranges must now return the result of std.range.take, and any range with slicing which supports $(D $) must now support it with the same semantics as arrays (including supporting subtraction for finite ranges).) This is 3 separate enhancements, each of which should be its own issue, and will certainly fit as the issue title. Automating the bug list is fine, but don't throw away all of the non-bugzilla stuff that we've been putting in the changelog. Nothing has been deleted. In fact, I think those previous items in the 2.060 New/Changed Features are seriously deficient because they contain no hyperlinks for more information. But, as I mentioned to Leandro, if someone wants to add some additional notes to the changelog file, that's great. But somebody has to do the work, and in the past there generally hasn't been much effort expended there. Me, I've spent more time than I care to think about keeping that list manually updated, badly.
Re: Managing email [ was Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release ]
On 1/3/2013 8:25 PM, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote: Andrei I know better than run my own SMTP/IMAP servers Alexandrescu All we need now is a Penny.
Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release
On 1/3/2013 7:44 PM, Bernard Helyer wrote: * I'm still going to complain. :P My dad always told me that the time to worry is when there's no grumbling :-)
Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release
On Thursday, January 03, 2013 23:03:23 Walter Bright wrote: This is 3 separate enhancements, each of which should be its own issue, and will certainly fit as the issue title. If you think that these work as titles in bugzilla issues, you're missing the point. They're notes that need to be given some prominence and brought to developers' attention, not simply be listed randomly among a bunch of bugzilla enhancement titles. But, as I mentioned to Leandro, if someone wants to add some additional notes to the changelog file, that's great. But somebody has to do the work, and in the past there generally hasn't been much effort expended there. Fine, but then it needs to be clear where those changes are made. I'm one of the people who has generally tried to keep Phobos' and druntime's changelog.dd files up-to-date with changes. But I have no idea where else you'd want it. changelog.dd in d-programming-language.org does not appear to match what's on the website. It seems to list a lot of bugs explictly for 2.061. - Jonathan M Davis
Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release
On 1/3/2013 10:42 PM, Walter Bright wrote: Nobody has put forth that effort in the past, resulting in the changelog being pretty crummy and woefully incomplete. I apologize to Jonathan for that remark, because Jonathan has been putting out an effort on this.
Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release
On 1/3/2013 11:15 PM, Jonathan M Davis wrote: On Thursday, January 03, 2013 23:03:23 Walter Bright wrote: This is 3 separate enhancements, each of which should be its own issue, and will certainly fit as the issue title. If you think that these work as titles in bugzilla issues, you're missing the point. They're notes that need to be given some prominence and brought to developers' attention, not simply be listed randomly among a bunch of bugzilla enhancement titles. But, as I mentioned to Leandro, if someone wants to add some additional notes to the changelog file, that's great. But somebody has to do the work, and in the past there generally hasn't been much effort expended there. Fine, but then it needs to be clear where those changes are made. I'm one of the people who has generally tried to keep Phobos' and druntime's changelog.dd files up-to-date with changes. Yes, I know, and I appreciate that. But I have no idea where else you'd want it. changelog.dd in d-programming-language.org does not appear to match what's on the website. It seems to list a lot of bugs explictly for 2.061. They're commented out with the $(COMMENT ...) macro.
