subject:"D 1.076 and 2.061 release"


On 1/3/2013 1:22 AM, Russel Winder wrote:

I don't see that local or server-based storage makes any difference to
the ability to manage email. But maybe I am missing something about your
particular workflow.


1. I control the backups

2. Third parties don't have access to my email history. I don't care what their 
privacy policy says - if they have it, they will use it as they please. You 
have no way to even discover what they do with it


3. I've had email servers controlled by others go dark, and poof, all email 
gone

4. I *need* my old email. More than once it has saved me from a lawsuit

Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release


On 1/3/2013 8:28 AM, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:

On 1/3/13 3:32 AM, Walter Bright wrote:

I know. On the other hand, you have control over your email data.

FWIW it's all an illusion. Mail is sent unsecured so securing the mail sent and
received is futile.


I know it doesn't guarantee that there aren't copies stored on government 
servers and various server backups. But if it is only on a magtape stored in 
some subbasement, it makes it much harder for someone to casually go spelunking 
in my old emails.

Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release


On 1/3/2013 5:20 AM, Matthew Caron wrote:

On 01/02/2013 04:18 PM, Walter Bright wrote:

Why would you need to? If your mail store is IMAP, just let it rebuild.


I don't store email on the server, I store it locally.


I gave that up years ago when I ended up with more than one device. Too much
did I get that email on my laptop or my desktop? And now with tablet, phone,
laptop, desktop, and several kiosk machines around the house (because how else
do you watch Firefly whilst loading custom hunting ammunition in the gun room?)
and then the device proliferation continues...


I know, it's a pain. On the other hand, I don't feel the need to write emails 
when I'm about town. Generally, only when I'm on a trip is this a problem, and 
my email client then is set to not automatically delete email from the server 
when downloaded.



scp -rp ~/.thunderbird target machine

will shove your whole TB directory to the new box.


Doesn't work on Windows.


Why not? The directory may be different, but the philosophy should still hold.
Just install ssh/sshd from cygwin and you're set.


It's different on every machine was my point. Again, though, the address book 
import/export works the same, and I don't have to google thunderbird for 
specific instructions for each OS.

Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release

On Thursday, January 03, 2013 17:59:22 deadalnix wrote:
 On Thursday, 3 January 2013 at 16:43:06 UTC, bearophile wrote:
  deadalnix:
  I still have code broken all over the place.
  
  D2 is getting its corner case problems sorted out and fixed,
  but this still causes some breakage in user code. As more
  people use D2, issues are found, discussed and fixed, the
  breakages will get more and more uncommon.
 
 Is this breakage intended ? To me it doesn't make sense, the
 generated code is :
 
 (Bar bar = Bar.init; , bar).this()

It is most definitely intended. ref requires an lvalue. A struct literal is a 
temporary and therefore should be an rvalue, not an lvalue.

Before, you had the stupid situation of

foo(Bar()); //compiles
foo(funcWhichReturnsBar()); //fails to compile

Both are dealing with temporaries, so both should be rvalues, and neither 
should compile. You need an actual variable or other non-temporary memory 
location (e.g. dereferenced pointer) if you want to pass an argument to a ref 
function. The previous behavior was broken and should have been fixed ages ago.

- Jonathan M Davis

Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release


On 1/3/2013 2:17 AM, Russel Winder wrote:

The very existence of TRIM indicates a systemic
problem.


I think you misunderstand what TRIM is. Nobody anticipated a need for TRIM 
before SSDs, so no operating system issued TRIM commands.


It's like saying C has a systemic problem because it doesn't support virtual 
function calls.

Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release

2013-01-03 Thread Johannes Pfau

Am Thu, 03 Jan 2013 17:43:03 +0100
schrieb bearophile bearophileh...@lycos.com:

 deadalnix:
 
  I still have code broken all over the place.
 
 D2 is getting its corner case problems sorted out and fixed, but 
 this still causes some breakage in user code. As more people use 
 D2, issues are found, discussed and fixed, the breakages will get 
 more and more uncommon.
 
 Bye,
 bearophile

I agree. But we should probably start shipping minor releases. For
example regression fixes in 2.061 in the next 2 weeks could be merged
into the 2.061 branch as well and we could ship a 2.061.1 release with
those fixes.

Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release


On 1/3/2013 3:27 AM, Jacob Carlborg wrote:

I can also add that the latest upgrades I have performed I cloned the hard drive
containing the OS. Then I perform the upgrade on the clone, if everything works
ok I either run the clone instead or does the same on the original disk.



That's probably the best idea.

Re: Managing email [ was Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release ]

On Thursday, January 03, 2013 10:26:51 Walter Bright wrote:
 2. Third parties don't have access to my email history. I don't care what
 their privacy policy says - if they have it, they will use it as they
 please. You have no way to even discover what they do with it

Unless you're managing your own e-mail server (which you may be doing - I have 
no idea), then even if you store your e-mail locally and delete it from the 
server, you're still not saved from this. Just because it's deleted from your 
e-mail account doesn't mean that they don't still have copies, just that you 
don't have access anymore. Of course, if you're managing your own e-mail 
server, then I don't know what you'd gain from storing it locally instead of 
keeping it on the server.

- Jonathan M Davis

Re: Re TRIM Support [was Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release]


On 1/3/2013 2:40 AM, Russel Winder wrote:

On Thu, 2013-01-03 at 01:26 -0800, Walter Bright wrote:
[…]

Windows 7 has TRIM support, Windows XP does not. I have an SSD drive in an XP
machine, it runs as slow as a spinning disk. An SSD in Win7, with TRIM, runs
like lightning.


Linux had TRIM support since 2008, but until late 2010 it wasn't easy to
work with.  Since then ( 2.6.33) Linux support for TRIM has been fine
as long as you use ext4 filestores. You just have to add the discard
property to the partition mount in fstab.


Unfortunately, I'm the Ubuntu user who sticks an SSD drive into the machine, and 
then pushes the button Install Ubuntu!.


What do I get?

What you say is like the bad older versions of Ubuntu, which would not recognize 
my screen. I always had to edit some config file that changed location and 
contents with every new version, and the actual commands to write in there were 
impossible to find documentation on. So it was trying random things, hoping you 
wouldn't bork it so bad you couldn't see anything on the display.


The newer Ubuntus, thankfully, just work with the display.

Re: Managing email [ was Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release ]

2013-01-03 Thread Russel Winder

On Thu, 2013-01-03 at 10:26 -0800, Walter Bright wrote:
[…]
 1. I control the backups

I run my own SMTP and IMAP server, including it's backing up. I like
control!

 2. Third parties don't have access to my email history. I don't care what 
 their 
 privacy policy says - if they have it, they will use it as they please. You 
 have no way to even discover what they do with it

I run my own SMTP and IMAP server, so no third party.

The NSA have all emails, no matter who else has them.

 3. I've had email servers controlled by others go dark, and poof, all email 
 gone

As I run my own SMTP and IMAP server, if it goes dark then either my
server blew up or my ISP disconnected me. Email not gone due to backup
strategy :-)

 4. I *need* my old email. More than once it has saved me from a lawsuit

I run my own SMTP and IMAP server, including it's backing up.  Old email
for some threads is definitely worth keeping.

I agree with not relying on an email service such as Google, etc.

-- 
Russel.
=
Dr Russel Winder  t: +44 20 7585 2200   voip: sip:russel.win...@ekiga.net
41 Buckmaster Roadm: +44 7770 465 077   xmpp: rus...@winder.org.uk
London SW11 1EN, UK   w: www.russel.org.uk  skype: russel_winder


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Re: Managing email [ was Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release ]

2013-01-03 Thread Matthew Caron


On 01/03/2013 01:26 PM, Walter Bright wrote:

On 1/3/2013 1:22 AM, Russel Winder wrote:

I don't see that local or server-based storage makes any difference to
the ability to manage email. But maybe I am missing something about your
particular workflow.


1. I control the backups


The hosting company I use (csoft.net) has ssh access so, in addition to 
their backups, I go in once and month and run one was well.



2. Third parties don't have access to my email history. I don't care
what their privacy policy says - if they have it, they will use it as
they please. You have no way to even discover what they do with it


Unless you encrypt all your email, anything that goes to and fro is 
subject to snooping. Now, you'll likely make a valid point about them 
not having *all* the history, and this is a fair point. However, I 
assume that everyone has everything I've ever sent in the clear. After 
all, you don't think all those acres of computers under various 
agencies' headquarters are running SETI@Home, do you?


Now, where did I leave my tinfoil hat...


3. I've had email servers controlled by others go dark, and poof, all
email gone


That's what backups are for. You could also run a fetchmail process 
locally to sync at a more rapid speed, so you get a local copy of 
everything and get the benefit of cross-device syncing.



4. I *need* my old email. More than once it has saved me from a lawsuit


No argument there. I have stuff going back to 1995 or so (and, 
ironically, the way I migrated from one mail client to another was to 
shove a boatload of POP email up to IMAP then leave it there), because 
there was no export function - which is what started this conversation 
in the first place!

--
Matthew Caron, Software Build Engineer
Sixnet, a Red Lion business | www.sixnet.com
+1 (518) 877-5173 x138 office

Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release

2013-01-03 Thread Matthew Caron


On 01/03/2013 01:36 PM, Walter Bright wrote:

On 1/3/2013 3:27 AM, Jacob Carlborg wrote:

I can also add that the latest upgrades I have performed I cloned the
hard drive
containing the OS. Then I perform the upgrade on the clone, if
everything works
ok I either run the clone instead or does the same on the original disk.



That's probably the best idea.


A bootable rescue CD containing ddrescue is excellent in this regard. 
I've been using SystemRescueCD of late:


http://www.sysresccd.org/SystemRescueCd_Homepage

I image my Windows machine using ddrescue because reinstalling Linux 
takes 2 hours - reinstalling Windows takes 2 weeks. :-)



--
Matthew Caron, Software Build Engineer
Sixnet, a Red Lion business | www.sixnet.com
+1 (518) 877-5173 x138 office

Re: Managing email [ was Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release ]


On 1/3/2013 10:53 AM, Russel Winder wrote:

On Thu, 2013-01-03 at 10:26 -0800, Walter Bright wrote:
[…]

1. I control the backups


I run my own SMTP and IMAP server, including it's backing up. I like
control!


I agree that is the best solution.

Re: Managing email [ was Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release ]


On 1/3/2013 10:41 AM, Jonathan M Davis wrote:

Unless you're managing your own e-mail server (which you may be doing - I have
no idea), then even if you store your e-mail locally and delete it from the
server, you're still not saved from this.


I know - but it's less likely, and most ISPs delete that stuff after a few 
months.

Re: Managing email [ was Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release ]

2013-01-03 Thread Andrei Alexandrescu


On 1/3/13 1:53 PM, Russel Winder wrote:

On Thu, 2013-01-03 at 10:26 -0800, Walter Bright wrote:
[…]

1. I control the backups


I run my own SMTP and IMAP server, including it's backing up. I like
control!


2. Third parties don't have access to my email history. I don't care what their
privacy policy says - if they have it, they will use it as they please. You
have no way to even discover what they do with it


I run my own SMTP and IMAP server, so no third party.

The NSA have all emails, no matter who else has them.


3. I've had email servers controlled by others go dark, and poof, all email 
gone


As I run my own SMTP and IMAP server, if it goes dark then either my
server blew up or my ISP disconnected me. Email not gone due to backup
strategy :-)


4. I *need* my old email. More than once it has saved me from a lawsuit


I run my own SMTP and IMAP server, including it's backing up.  Old email
for some threads is definitely worth keeping.

I agree with not relying on an email service such as Google, etc.


Whoa. Four instances I run my own SMTP and IMAP server in about as 
many paragraphs. You must feel quite strongly about that...



Andrei I don't yet run my own SMTP and IMAP server Alexandrescu

Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release

On Thursday, January 03, 2013 10:49:08 Walter Bright wrote:
 On 1/3/2013 10:11 AM, Ali Çehreli wrote:
  On 01/01/2013 03:46 PM, Walter Bright wrote:
   1. the dlang.org isn't updated yet.
  
  Is the change log available somewhere else? I want to spread the news but
  it is not very interesting without knowing what has changed. :)
 
 http://dlang.org/changelog.html

Oh. Those are links. I was wondering when the data was actually going to be 
posted. When compared to the previous ones, it looks like there's only headers 
with no information.

But what about release notes then? There were several notes in the changelog.d 
file along those lines which aren't being distributed with how the changelog is 
currently being presented. For instance, the first few items have all been 
lost:

$(LI std.string: $(RED The implementations of std.string.format and 
string.sformat have been replaced with improved implementations which conform 
to writef. In some, rare cases, this will break code. Please see the 
documentation for std.string.format and std.string.sformat for details.))

$(LI std.string.format now works in CTFE.)

$(LI std.range.hasSlicing has been made stricter in an effort to make it more 
reliable. opSlice for infinite ranges must now return the result of 
std.range.take, and any range with slicing which supports $(D $) must now 
support it with the same semantics as arrays (including supporting subtraction 
for finite ranges).)

$(LI std.range.isRandomAccessRange now requires hasLength for finite ranges, as 
it makes no sense for such ranges not to define length and many random-access 
algorithms rely on length.)

In fact, I think that _every_ item in Phobos' changelog.d was lost. That 
information needs to be presented to users.

- Jonathan M Davis

Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release

2013-01-03 Thread David Nadlinger

On Thursday, 3 January 2013 at 19:36:31 UTC, Jonathan M Davis 
wrote:
In fact, I think that _every_ item in Phobos' changelog.d was 
lost. That information needs to be presented to users.


Agreed – while it is great to finally see the manually maintained 
list of fixed bugs being replaced with a Bugzilla query, there 
will always be reasons for well-curated release notes to exist: 
they are invaluable for discussing high-level changes, drawing 
attention to (future) breaking changes, …


David

Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release

Johannes Pfau, el  3 de January a las 19:37 me escribiste:
 Am Thu, 03 Jan 2013 17:43:03 +0100
 schrieb bearophile bearophileh...@lycos.com:
 
  deadalnix:
  
   I still have code broken all over the place.
  
  D2 is getting its corner case problems sorted out and fixed, but 
  this still causes some breakage in user code. As more people use 
  D2, issues are found, discussed and fixed, the breakages will get 
  more and more uncommon.
  
  Bye,
  bearophile
 
 I agree. But we should probably start shipping minor releases. For
 example regression fixes in 2.061 in the next 2 weeks could be merged
 into the 2.061 branch as well and we could ship a 2.061.1 release with
 those fixes.

+1

Keepping a branch for each release would make this dead easy.

-- 
Leandro Lucarella (AKA luca) http://llucax.com.ar/
--
GPG Key: 5F5A8D05 (F8CD F9A7 BF00 5431 4145  104C 949E BFB6 5F5A 8D05)
--
El techo de mi cuarto lleno de estrellas

Re: Managing email [ was Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release ]

2013-01-03 Thread Jacob Carlborg


On 2013-01-03 19:53, Russel Winder wrote:

On Thu, 2013-01-03 at 10:26 -0800, Walter Bright wrote:
[…]

1. I control the backups


I run my own SMTP and IMAP server, including it's backing up. I like
control!


Next step: becoming your own ISP ?

--
/Jacob Carlborg

Re: Managing email [ was Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release ]

2013-01-03 Thread Russel Winder

On Thu, 2013-01-03 at 14:17 -0500, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
[…]
 Whoa. Four instances I run my own SMTP and IMAP server in about as 
 many paragraphs. You must feel quite strongly about that...

:-)

Originally I was doing it to make sure I could sys admin
Apache/Postfix/Dovecot (previously Courier IMAP) then I realized it was
so straightforward there was little point in using a hosting agent.  I
had a system crash whilst away a couple of years ago and had to use
GMail for a few days. It became apparent that whatever the terms of
service say, Google were scanning all emails and using the data to
create an advertising profile which was clearly then used to generate
income for Google. Clearly this is the quid pro quo for getting free
email, but I don't like the price. Worse I used to have one identity
with Google Accounts, but having created a Google Mail account, Google
switched the primary key to the Google Mail identifier and will not
allow that to be changed.  Facebook tried the same trick. This is really
annoying and lowers the value of the brands for me. Result, I have my
server hardware here and run all the services myself locally.

-- 
Russel.
=
Dr Russel Winder  t: +44 20 7585 2200   voip: sip:russel.win...@ekiga.net
41 Buckmaster Roadm: +44 7770 465 077   xmpp: rus...@winder.org.uk
London SW11 1EN, UK   w: www.russel.org.uk  skype: russel_winder


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Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release

2013-01-03 Thread Philippe Sigaud

On Thu, Jan 3, 2013 at 9:00 PM, David Nadlinger s...@klickverbot.at wrote:

 On Thursday, 3 January 2013 at 19:36:31 UTC, Jonathan M Davis wrote:

 In fact, I think that _every_ item in Phobos' changelog.d was lost. That
 information needs to be presented to users.


 Agreed – while it is great to finally see the manually maintained list of
 fixed bugs being replaced with a Bugzilla query, there will always be
 reasons for well-curated release notes to exist: they are invaluable for
 discussing high-level changes, drawing attention to (future) breaking
 changes, …


For example, UDA... They seem interesting, but I don't remember all the
discussions and now that the dust settled somewhat, I'd like to know what's
the syntax, how they are inspected.

I used the link Walter (http://dlang.org/changelog.html) provided and all I
could find is http://d.puremagic.com/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=9222

That's a bit short... How can someone coming to D today know this language
has user-defined attributes?

Re: Managing email [ was Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release ]

2013-01-03 Thread Russel Winder

On Thu, 2013-01-03 at 21:08 +0100, Jacob Carlborg wrote:
[…]
 Next step: becoming your own ISP ?

Define ISP ;-)

-- 
Russel.
=
Dr Russel Winder  t: +44 20 7585 2200   voip: sip:russel.win...@ekiga.net
41 Buckmaster Roadm: +44 7770 465 077   xmpp: rus...@winder.org.uk
London SW11 1EN, UK   w: www.russel.org.uk  skype: russel_winder


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Re: Managing email [ was Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release ]

2013-01-03 Thread Dmitry Olshansky


04-Jan-2013 00:12, Russel Winder пишет:

On Thu, 2013-01-03 at 21:08 +0100, Jacob Carlborg wrote:
[…]

Next step: becoming your own ISP ?


Define ISP ;-)



Then go for autonomous system aka AS g

--
Dmitry Olshansky

Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release

Walter Bright, el  1 de January a las 15:46 me escribiste:
 The big news is Win64 is now supported (in alpha).
 
 http://www.digitalmars.com/d/download.html
 
 D 1.076 changelog: http://www.digitalmars.com/d/1.0/changelog.html

BTW, Changelogs looks extremely naked now, I think release notes are
really needed now. Al least for new features. Is far from ideal to make
people go through a bug report to know how they can adapt their code to
new features.

And sometimes bug reports are not updated on how things turned out, for
example #7041[1], a feature I implemented myself. The bug report is
outdated AFAIK, the title talks about a -di flags which doesn't even
exist, you actually have to go through the pull request[2] to see what
the hell is going on. And even then the behaviour of that pull request
was changed in a subsequent one[3], and there are no visible links
between those 2 pull requests.

So, unless you are a private investigator, you will have a very hard
time to know that what really happened is that now DMD show deprecations
as a warning message (compilation is not halted anymore) by default, and
there are 2 new compiler flags, -de (to get the old default behaviour to
make deprecation to be errors) and -dw, to explicitly enable the new
default behaviour (make them warnings) in case you changed it in a
config file and want to override it in the command line (so people
wanting the old behaviour by default can put -de in the dmd.conf file
and they can still override that default by using -dw when compiling).

The -d flag stay the same (silently ignore any deprecated feature or
symbol).

Anyway, at least for this particular change, the changelog is basically
useless, and I don't think the bug report is the right place to inform
users about compiler changes. Users don't care about the history and
discussion around a change, they just only want to know how to take
advantage of new features and how to fix their code (possibly with some
exceptions of course, in which case they can still go back to the bug
report and pull requests).

Glad that the long waited new release is out, though, and the release
process is still improving :)

Happy new year to everyone!

[1] http://d.puremagic.com/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=7041
[2] https://github.com/D-Programming-Language/dmd/pull/1185
[3] https://github.com/D-Programming-Language/dmd/pull/1287

-- 
Leandro Lucarella (AKA luca) http://llucax.com.ar/
--
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-- Crónica TV

Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release

2013-01-03 Thread Pierre Rouleau


On 13-01-03 3:11 PM, Philippe Sigaud wrote:



On Thu, Jan 3, 2013 at 9:00 PM, David Nadlinger s...@klickverbot.at
mailto:s...@klickverbot.at wrote:

On Thursday, 3 January 2013 at 19:36:31 UTC, Jonathan M Davis wrote:

In fact, I think that _every_ item in Phobos' changelog.d was
lost. That information needs to be presented to users.


Agreed – while it is great to finally see the manually maintained
list of fixed bugs being replaced with a Bugzilla query, there will
always be reasons for well-curated release notes to exist: they are
invaluable for discussing high-level changes, drawing attention to
(future) breaking changes, …


For example, UDA... They seem interesting, but I don't remember all the
discussions and now that the dust settled somewhat, I'd like to know
what's the syntax, how they are inspected.

I used the link Walter (http://dlang.org/changelog.html) provided and
all I could find is http://d.puremagic.com/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=9222



FWIW, you can see some info here: 
http://forum.dlang.org/thread/k7afq6$2832$1...@digitalmars.com



That's a bit short... How can someone coming to D today know this
language has user-defined attributes?



But, yes, I agree, someone (like me) that has been watching D for long 
time, used it a very little, read the books but never actually had the 
time to use it (for all sorts of reasons), will find that the best way 
is to read the newsgroup and invest quite a bit of time.


I would say, the best thing would be to implement release notes similar 
to the way the Python project does it would be great.  I have been using 
Python for a while and I find their documentation and processes awesome.


Is there something similar for D?

/Pierre

Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release

2013-01-03 Thread Iain Buclaw

On 3 January 2013 20:27, Leandro Lucarella l...@llucax.com.ar wrote:

 Walter Bright, el  1 de January a las 15:46 me escribiste:
  The big news is Win64 is now supported (in alpha).
 
  http://www.digitalmars.com/d/download.html
 
  D 1.076 changelog: http://www.digitalmars.com/d/1.0/changelog.html

 BTW, Changelogs looks extremely naked now, I think release notes are
 really needed now. Al least for new features. Is far from ideal to make
 people go through a bug report to know how they can adapt their code to
 new features.


Each new language feature should have a corresponding link to
http://dlang.org/language-reference.html



-- 
Iain Buclaw

*(p  e ? p++ : p) = (c  0x0f) + '0';

Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release

2013-01-03 Thread Ali Çehreli


On 01/03/2013 10:49 AM, Walter Bright wrote:
 On 1/3/2013 10:11 AM, Ali Çehreli wrote:
 On 01/01/2013 03:46 PM, Walter Bright wrote:

  1. the dlang.org isn't updated yet.

 Is the change log available somewhere else? I want to spread the news
 but it is
 not very interesting without knowing what has changed. :)

 http://dlang.org/changelog.html

That's what I have been looking at. The top of the page was saying 2.060 
and had the changelist for 2.060.


The problem is solved for me only after I told my browser to refresh 
that page. :-/


Ali

Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release

2013-01-03 Thread deadalnix

On Thursday, 3 January 2013 at 18:36:32 UTC, Jonathan M Davis 
wrote:

On Thursday, January 03, 2013 17:59:22 deadalnix wrote:

On Thursday, 3 January 2013 at 16:43:06 UTC, bearophile wrote:
 deadalnix:
 I still have code broken all over the place.
 
 D2 is getting its corner case problems sorted out and fixed,

 but this still causes some breakage in user code. As more
 people use D2, issues are found, discussed and fixed, the
 breakages will get more and more uncommon.

Is this breakage intended ? To me it doesn't make sense, the
generated code is :

(Bar bar = Bar.init; , bar).this()


It is most definitely intended. ref requires an lvalue. A 
struct literal is a

temporary and therefore should be an rvalue, not an lvalue.



struct Bar {
uint i;

this(uint foo) {
import std.stdio;
writeln(this);
}
}

void main() {
Bar(0);
}


Before, you had the stupid situation of

foo(Bar()); //compiles
foo(funcWhichReturnsBar()); //fails to compile

Both are dealing with temporaries, so both should be rvalues, 
and neither
should compile. You need an actual variable or other 
non-temporary memory
location (e.g. dereferenced pointer) if you want to pass an 
argument to a ref
function. The previous behavior was broken and should have been 
fixed ages ago.


- Jonathan M Davis


The compiler actually create this storage to pass it to the 
constructor. Why can't it pass it to something else ?

Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release

Iain Buclaw, el  3 de January a las 21:48 me escribiste:
 On 3 January 2013 20:27, Leandro Lucarella l...@llucax.com.ar wrote:
 
  Walter Bright, el  1 de January a las 15:46 me escribiste:
   The big news is Win64 is now supported (in alpha).
  
   http://www.digitalmars.com/d/download.html
  
   D 1.076 changelog: http://www.digitalmars.com/d/1.0/changelog.html
 
  BTW, Changelogs looks extremely naked now, I think release notes are
  really needed now. Al least for new features. Is far from ideal to make
  people go through a bug report to know how they can adapt their code to
  new features.
 
 
 Each new language feature should have a corresponding link to
 http://dlang.org/language-reference.html

Where? In the bug report? If so, I think it is extremely odd and user
unfriendly. If is in the releases notes, perfect, but even then I think it
would be nice to include a short summary of the new feature, not just a link
(someone else mentioned Python release notes and I agree that Python is an
excellent example of how I, as an user, would like to see it in D too).

-- 
Leandro Lucarella (AKA luca) http://llucax.com.ar/
--
GPG Key: 5F5A8D05 (F8CD F9A7 BF00 5431 4145  104C 949E BFB6 5F5A 8D05)
--
A veces quisiera ser un auto,
para chocar como choco siendo humano,
para romperme en mil pedazos.

Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release

2013-01-03 Thread deadalnix


On Tuesday, 1 January 2013 at 23:46:32 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:

The big news is Win64 is now supported (in alpha).

http://www.digitalmars.com/d/download.html

D 1.076 changelog: 
http://www.digitalmars.com/d/1.0/changelog.html


A couple issues:

1. the dlang.org isn't updated yet.
2. the OS X package hasn't been built yet (problems with the 
package script).


I hope to get these resolved shortly. In the meantime, enjoy 
and have a Happy D Year!


Ran into some trouble to make it work, but awesome news : the GC 
collecting live stuff problem is gone (most likely a closure bug 
rather than a GC bug).


That is awesome !

Re: Managing email [ was Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release ]


On 1/3/2013 11:17 AM, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:

Andrei I don't yet run my own SMTP and IMAP server Alexandrescu


Sheesh. How can you ever hold your head up again after that admission?

Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release


On 1/3/2013 11:36 AM, Jonathan M Davis wrote:

Oh. Those are links. I was wondering when the data was actually going to be
posted. When compared to the previous ones, it looks like there's only headers
with no information.


The idea is to add explanatory information to the bugzilla issue being pointed 
to.

Making some effort to clarify the title of the bugzilla issue is also justified.

This change to the changelog presentation does require that we up our game with 
bugzilla - accurate tags (you can see at the top what is being keyed on), 
accurate titles, and accurate information.

Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release


On 1/3/2013 12:27 PM, Leandro Lucarella wrote:

BTW, Changelogs looks extremely naked now, I think release notes are
really needed now. Al least for new features. Is far from ideal to make
people go through a bug report to know how they can adapt their code to
new features.


On the other hand, the older way of doing changelogs routinely missed a *lot* of 
things. Relatively few people doing the pulls would bother to log the changes. I 
think there were easy double the number of changes showing up in the search than 
were in the log.




And sometimes bug reports are not updated on how things turned out, for
example #7041[1], a feature I implemented myself. The bug report is
outdated AFAIK, the title talks about a -di flags which doesn't even
exist, you actually have to go through the pull request[2] to see what
the hell is going on. And even then the behaviour of that pull request
was changed in a subsequent one[3], and there are no visible links
between those 2 pull requests.


Please update that bugzilla issue. As I posted elsewhere in this thread, this 
method does require upping our game with bugzilla tags, titles, and descriptions.


I don't see that it is any *harder* to update the bugzilla issue than it is to 
provide a brief summary in the changelog.


As for what's new, the failure here is the failure to document those changes. 
This is not a failure of the changelog - it's a failure of the documentation 
pages. The bugzilla should have a link to the relevant documentation.


I do *not* think that a changelog new feature entry takes the place of updating 
the documentation, and I do not agree with writing the documentation twice 
(changelog and documentation).




Anyway, at least for this particular change, the changelog is basically
useless, and I don't think the bug report is the right place to inform
users about compiler changes.


We've been using bugzilla for a long time to organize enhancement requests.


Users don't care about the history and
discussion around a change, they just only want to know how to take
advantage of new features and how to fix their code (possibly with some
exceptions of course, in which case they can still go back to the bug
report and pull requests).


I agree this new system is imperfect - but I argue it is better than what we 
were doing before.

Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release


On 1/3/2013 3:38 AM, deadalnix wrote:

On Thursday, 3 January 2013 at 01:06:46 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:

Please post example to bugzilla.


http://d.puremagic.com/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=9263


Thank you. (And whaddya know, Kenji just fixed it!)

Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release


On 1/3/2013 4:22 PM, deadalnix wrote:

Ran into some trouble to make it work, but awesome news : the GC collecting live
stuff problem is gone (most likely a closure bug rather than a GC bug).



There are still a couple of memory-corrupting closure bugs left. Turns out they 
are rather hard to solve, were found only at the last minute, and have always 
been there, so I thought it was ok for them to go one more release.

Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release

2013-01-03 Thread Bernard Helyer


On Friday, 4 January 2013 at 03:21:46 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:

On 1/3/2013 3:38 AM, deadalnix wrote:
On Thursday, 3 January 2013 at 01:06:46 UTC, Walter Bright 
wrote:

Please post example to bugzilla.


http://d.puremagic.com/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=9263


Thank you. (And whaddya know, Kenji just fixed it!)


Excellent. This also demonstrates why a better release
process would be nice -- I can either compile with -wi
and filter out warnings until 2.062 or roll back to
2.060. Bug fix releases would be super keen. :D

But eh, 64 bit support? UDAs? I can hardly complain.*

-Bernard.





* I'm still going to complain. :P

Re: Managing email [ was Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release ]

2013-01-03 Thread Andrei Alexandrescu


On 1/3/13 10:07 PM, Walter Bright wrote:

On 1/3/2013 11:17 AM, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:

Andrei I don't yet run my own SMTP and IMAP server Alexandrescu


Sheesh. How can you ever hold your head up again after that admission?


I actually used to, heh. Communigate Pro they called it, beautiful 
software. Then understood the email security model better and figured 
running one's own server doesn't make any sense - sorry Russel :o).


Andrei I know better than run my own SMTP/IMAP servers Alexandrescu

Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release

Walter Bright, el  3 de January a las 19:10 me escribiste:
 On 1/3/2013 11:36 AM, Jonathan M Davis wrote:
 Oh. Those are links. I was wondering when the data was actually going to be
 posted. When compared to the previous ones, it looks like there's only 
 headers
 with no information.
 
 The idea is to add explanatory information to the bugzilla issue being 
 pointed to.

Please, please, consider adding release notes, at least for new features is not
good enough to just use bugzilla links, you need a clear, succinct explanation
of the feature. Where would you put it? In the bug report itself? Most of the
time is not clear enough by the time the bug is created and the feature is
polished after a long discussion. You shouldn't make users go through the
entire history of a bug, which is completely internal to the compiler
development, to know what have changed.

-- 
Leandro Lucarella (AKA luca) http://llucax.com.ar/
--
GPG Key: 5F5A8D05 (F8CD F9A7 BF00 5431 4145  104C 949E BFB6 5F5A 8D05)
--
Cuando le dije si quería bailar conmigo
Se puso a hablar de Jung, de Freud y Lacan
Mi idiosincracia le causaba mucha gracia
Me dijo al girar la cumbiera intelectual

Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release

On Thursday, January 03, 2013 19:10:59 Walter Bright wrote:
 On 1/3/2013 11:36 AM, Jonathan M Davis wrote:
  Oh. Those are links. I was wondering when the data was actually going to
  be
  posted. When compared to the previous ones, it looks like there's only
  headers with no information.
 
 The idea is to add explanatory information to the bugzilla issue being
 pointed to.
 
 Making some effort to clarify the title of the bugzilla issue is also
 justified.
 
 This change to the changelog presentation does require that we up our game
 with bugzilla - accurate tags (you can see at the top what is being keyed
 on), accurate titles, and accurate information.

No offense, but that doesn't cut it. Maybe it makes sense to create bugzilla 
entries for stuff like 

$(LI std.digest.ripemd: Added RIPEMD-160 digest implementation.)

but other lines like

$(LI std.string: $(RED The implementations of std.string.format and 
string.sformat have been replaced with improved implementations which conform 
to writef. In some, rare cases, this will break code. Please see the 
documentation for std.string.format and std.string.sformat for details.))

or

$(LI std.range.hasSlicing has been made stricter in an effort to make it more 
reliable. opSlice for infinite ranges must now return the result of 
std.range.take, and any range with slicing which supports $(D $) must now 
support it with the same semantics as arrays (including supporting subtraction 
for finite ranges).)

are purely notes which developers should be made aware of which should _not_ 
be buried in a list of bugzilla entries where most people won't see them (not 
to mention, how many people do you think actually read through that list of 
bug fixes; I think that it's mostly the notes that were at the top which people 
cared about, and now they're gone).

If you want to have a release notes section for them separate from the 
changelog section, fine. But these are notes which should be relatively 
prominent so that people see them! And they're specifically notes for people to 
read and not enhancement requests or bug fixes or whatnot. In your zeal to 
automate the bug fix list, you're throwing away something of real value.

Automating the bug list is fine, but don't throw away all of the non-bugzilla 
stuff that we've been putting in the changelog.

- Jonathan M Davis

Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release

2013-01-03 Thread Pierre Rouleau


On 13-01-03 10:18 PM, Walter Bright wrote:

On 1/3/2013 12:27 PM, Leandro Lucarella wrote:

BTW, Changelogs looks extremely naked now, I think release notes are
really needed now. Al least for new features. Is far from ideal to make
people go through a bug report to know how they can adapt their code to
new features.


On the other hand, the older way of doing changelogs routinely missed a
*lot* of things. Relatively few people doing the pulls would bother to
log the changes. I think there were easy double the number of changes
showing up in the search than were in the log.



And sometimes bug reports are not updated on how things turned out, for
example #7041[1], a feature I implemented myself. The bug report is
outdated AFAIK, the title talks about a -di flags which doesn't even
exist, you actually have to go through the pull request[2] to see what
the hell is going on. And even then the behaviour of that pull request
was changed in a subsequent one[3], and there are no visible links
between those 2 pull requests.


Please update that bugzilla issue. As I posted elsewhere in this thread,
this method does require upping our game with bugzilla tags, titles, and
descriptions.

I don't see that it is any *harder* to update the bugzilla issue than it
is to provide a brief summary in the changelog.

As for what's new, the failure here is the failure to document those
changes. This is not a failure of the changelog - it's a failure of the
documentation pages. The bugzilla should have a link to the relevant
documentation.

I do *not* think that a changelog new feature entry takes the place of
updating the documentation, and I do not agree with writing the
documentation twice (changelog and documentation).



Anyway, at least for this particular change, the changelog is basically
useless, and I don't think the bug report is the right place to inform
users about compiler changes.


We've been using bugzilla for a long time to organize enhancement requests.


Users don't care about the history and
discussion around a change, they just only want to know how to take
advantage of new features and how to fix their code (possibly with some
exceptions of course, in which case they can still go back to the bug
report and pull requests).


I agree this new system is imperfect - but I argue it is better than
what we were doing before.



I would agree with you that updating documentation and having access to 
the exact details is a very good thing to do.  And most current 
developers already using D will most likely be satisfied with this.


However, for outsiders like me, that manages development groups and is 
waiting for D2 to become stable enough to start investing preliminary 
prototypes in D2 and developing software in house (first for tools while 
training new developers with it) and given the fact that D2 is still 
stabilizing, an explicit description of the highlights of the major 
changes of a new version is a good selling point for the language.


I was able to introduce Python in a group that was very conservative and 
old die-hard C programmers, simply because the documentation of Python 
was so well done.  Each *major* release is fully documented.


Now, D is newer, D2 is not yet completely stable yet (not that anything 
these days is).  So maybe I am comparing apples and oranges.  Python has 
lots of changes between official versions (with its own bug tracker with 
all the details of the various changes), but then they have a *release* 
version (eg. Python 2.7, Python 3.3, ...) and minor releases on top of 
those. The model seems to be a little different in D.  Will it get 
closer to a model similar to Python in the future? In the Python model 
of development it seems easier to create documentations for important 
releases.


I really hope D succeeds in becoming an important programming language; 
it's got so many nice features and its community is so knowledgeable.  A 
little PR here and there around the releases, where a quick review would 
identify major breakthrough would probably not hurt D's popularity 
though. Since I agree on avoiding duplication, would a list of major new 
features of the release (similar to what existed in previous logs), made 
of links to the updated documentation, help?


Anyway, I know I'm an outsider and have not participated in the 
development of this incredible language and all wonderful programs that 
the community came up with.  I just wanted to give you some feedback 
from the outside and, at the same time, thank Walter all the D community 
for the wonderful work that has been done!



/Pierre

Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release

On Thursday, January 03, 2013 19:18:25 Walter Bright wrote:
 As for what's new, the failure here is the failure to document those
 changes. This is not a failure of the changelog - it's a failure of the
 documentation pages. The bugzilla should have a link to the relevant
 documentation.
 
 I do *not* think that a changelog new feature entry takes the place of
 updating the documentation, and I do not agree with writing the
 documentation twice (changelog and documentation).

In general, the only new features which need to be in the documentation but 
don't end up there are in dmd. But even then, they need to be in the changelog 
or release notes - preferrably the release notes, if we're separating them. I 
expect that very few people will comb through the list of bug fixes. They want 
to know the highlights, and we should list those. And _no one_ is going to dig 
through the documentation to try and figure out what changed. So, omitting a 
new feature entirely from the changelog or release notes because it's been put 
in the updated documentation makes no sense. The changelog and release notes 
definitely do _not_ replace proper documentation, but they're a necessary 
companion to it when new features are added or major changes are made.

- Jonathan M Davis

Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release

Walter Bright, el  3 de January a las 19:18 me escribiste:
 On 1/3/2013 12:27 PM, Leandro Lucarella wrote:
 BTW, Changelogs looks extremely naked now, I think release notes are
 really needed now. Al least for new features. Is far from ideal to make
 people go through a bug report to know how they can adapt their code to
 new features.
 
 On the other hand, the older way of doing changelogs routinely
 missed a *lot* of things. Relatively few people doing the pulls
 would bother to log the changes. I think there were easy double the
 number of changes showing up in the search than were in the log.

I agree completely. I'm not saying having a well maintained bug tracker is a
bad think! Is great, and is great to be able to automatically list all the bugs
fixed in a release. Is think is a huge improvement. I'm just saying is not good
enough, there is more room for improvement IMHO.

 And sometimes bug reports are not updated on how things turned out, for
 example #7041[1], a feature I implemented myself. The bug report is
 outdated AFAIK, the title talks about a -di flags which doesn't even
 exist, you actually have to go through the pull request[2] to see what
 the hell is going on. And even then the behaviour of that pull request
 was changed in a subsequent one[3], and there are no visible links
 between those 2 pull requests.
 
 Please update that bugzilla issue. As I posted elsewhere in this
 thread, this method does require upping our game with bugzilla tags,
 titles, and descriptions.

 I don't see that it is any *harder* to update the bugzilla issue
 than it is to provide a brief summary in the changelog.

Is harder for the **user**, not for the developer! I updated all the
documentation in the compiler itself and the man page, I just never wrote
changelog entries in the documentation.

If you really want to make people update all the documentation, you should
reject pull requests until they are **complete**. If I missed updating
something is because nobody told me I had to. I'll happily update release notes
in the future if you tell me where they are.

 As for what's new, the failure here is the failure to document those
 changes. This is not a failure of the changelog - it's a failure of
 the documentation pages. The bugzilla should have a link to the
 relevant documentation.

Please see my other comment. I really think you're getting this wrong. Bugzilla
is for internal development, not to inform people about new features. New
features might end up being completely different from what the user reported in
the first place, and it's very cruel to make users have to read a complete
discussion about a feature (or to scroll to the end of a bug report to find a
link, or even to click on 2 links for each new/changed feature!).

I agree is the same work for a developer to update the documentation, being in
bugzilla or in the repository, but having a proper document with at least big
changes explained is much more useful to the user (and I think is even easier
to edit for the developer). And then, is harder to reject pull request if they
don't update some documentation in the same repo the pull request is made than
checking some bugzilla report to see if is properly updated.

 I do *not* think that a changelog new feature entry takes the place
 of updating the documentation, and I do not agree with writing the
 documentation twice (changelog and documentation).

We agree on this too. I don't know why are you getting the impression I want
something else in this matter.

 Anyway, at least for this particular change, the changelog is basically
 useless, and I don't think the bug report is the right place to inform
 users about compiler changes.
 
 We've been using bugzilla for a long time to organize enhancement requests.

And that's perfect too.

 Users don't care about the history and
 discussion around a change, they just only want to know how to take
 advantage of new features and how to fix their code (possibly with some
 exceptions of course, in which case they can still go back to the bug
 report and pull requests).
 
 I agree this new system is imperfect - but I argue it is better than
 what we were doing before.

And I'm not suggesting going back to where we were before, just keep improving.

What I'm suggesting is:
* Keep handling *all* development (bugfixes and new features) through bugzilla
* Keep listing bugfixes and new features lists automatically as bugzilla
  queries (I think it would be better to automatically generate a nicer
  document with those lists though, but that's just details)
* Keep having the complete documentation for new features where it should be
  (the website/specs).
* Add a release notes documents (that could be also the base to announce
  releases with more details in the e-mail release) which gives a brief summary
  of the focus of the current release and any important changes visible to the
  users. When new features are added, include the link to the proper

Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release


On 1/3/2013 9:54 PM, Pierre Rouleau wrote:

However, for outsiders like me, that manages development groups and is waiting
for D2 to become stable enough to start investing preliminary prototypes in D2
and developing software in house (first for tools while training new developers
with it) and given the fact that D2 is still stabilizing, an explicit
description of the highlights of the major changes of a new version is a good
selling point for the language.


The whatsnew section is pretty short, and it's just a click away. I just don't 
understand why this is so objectionable.

Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release

On 1/3/2013 9:54 PM, Jonathan M Davis wrote:

I do *not* think that a changelog new feature entry takes the place of
updating the documentation, and I do not agree with writing the
documentation twice (changelog and documentation).

In general, the only new features which need to be in the documentation but
don't end up there are in dmd. But even then, they need to be in the changelog
or release notes - preferrably the release notes, if we're separating them. I
expect that very few people will comb through the list of bug fixes.

New features are not bug fixes. That's why they're listed separately, and there
aren't that many of them.

They want
to know the highlights, and we should list those. And _no one_ is going to dig
through the documentation to try and figure out what changed.

Nobody is asking them to. The changelog has a pointer to a proper list of them.

So, omitting a
new feature entirely from the changelog or release notes because it's been put
in the updated documentation makes no sense.

I don't believe I suggested that. I suggested adding a link in the enhancement
request bugzilla entry to the right place in the documentation. That way, the
documentation only has to be done once. A summary can be added to the bugzilla
issue.

The changelog and release notes
definitely do _not_ replace proper documentation, but they're a necessary
companion to it when new features are added or major changes are made.

The changelog list of new features has not gone away. Just click on where it
says New/Changed Features at:

http://dlang.org/changelog.html.

And here's the list:

http://d.puremagic.com/issues/buglist.cgi?chfieldto=2012-12-31query_format=advancedchfield=resolutionchfieldfrom=2012-08-02chfieldvalue=FIXEDbug_severity=enhancementbug_status=RESOLVEDversion=D2version=D1%20%26%20D2resolution=FIXEDproduct=D

Please note that the documentation that was there before in the changelog, but
with no corresponding bugzilla entry, has been cut pasted into the enhancement
request bugzilla entry that I created for it.

Nothing has been lost or removed.

In fact, this has pointed out quite a few New/Changed Features that had been
omitted from the human curated list. I think that a complete list is better than
the buggy, half-assed one we had before.

I will certainly concur that a lot (most?) of the titles on the bugzilla
enhancement requests kinda suck, but you or I or anyone else can fix them as
necessary, and I did fix a few of them.

Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release


On 1/3/2013 9:20 PM, Leandro Lucarella wrote:

Examples:
http://python.org/download/releases/3.3.0/


I see a list, one line per, with a clickable link. The only real difference is 
that there's one extra click to get that list in the D changelog, but then it's 
a list, one line per, with a clickable link for more info.



http://llvm.org/releases/3.2/docs/ReleaseNotes.html (this link might be wrong
because I can't access the llvm website right now to check)


At the moment, that site appears to be down.

Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release


On 1/3/2013 8:51 PM, Leandro Lucarella wrote:

Please, please, consider adding release notes, at least for new features is not
good enough to just use bugzilla links, you need a clear, succinct explanation
of the feature. Where would you put it? In the bug report itself? Most of the
time is not clear enough by the time the bug is created and the feature is
polished after a long discussion. You shouldn't make users go through the
entire history of a bug, which is completely internal to the compiler
development, to know what have changed.


The titles of the bug reports can and should be edited after the fact. That will 
help a lot.


I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm saying that what you're asking for requires 
some significant effort from somebody. Nobody has put forth that effort in the 
past, resulting in the changelog being pretty crummy and woefully incomplete. At 
least now it is fairly complete.


If anyone wants to do a pull request on the changelog to add to it, that would 
be great.

Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release

On Thursday, January 03, 2013 22:24:34 Walter Bright wrote:
 Please note that the documentation that was there before in the changelog,
 but with no corresponding bugzilla entry, has been cut  pasted into the
 enhancement request bugzilla entry that I created for it.
 
 Nothing has been lost or removed.

And where are items like

$(LI std.range.hasSlicing has been made stricter in an effort to make it more 
reliable. opSlice for infinite ranges must now return the result of 
std.range.take, and any range with slicing which supports $(D $) must now 
support it with the same semantics as arrays (including supporting subtraction 
for finite ranges).)

That's something that should be listed prominently, not buried in a long list 
of bugzilla entries. If you want to put that sort of thing in a separate 
release notes section, fine. But notes like this do _not_ belong in a list of 
bugzilla entries. They should be prominently displayed to users.

 In fact, this has pointed out quite a few New/Changed Features that had been
 omitted from the human curated list. I think that a complete list is better
 than the buggy, half-assed one we had before.
 
 I will certainly concur that a lot (most?) of the titles on the bugzilla
 enhancement requests kinda suck, but you or I or anyone else can fix them as
 necessary, and I did fix a few of them.

I'm all for automating the bug fixes, and it makes perfect sense to handle many 
of the enhancement requests in the same way, but we should have a way to 
highlight major changes separately from the list of bugzilla entries (which 
have no indication of prominence or relative importance) as well as an area 
for giving specific notes to developers when needed (like major changes they 
should watch out for or impending changes that they should be aware of). If 
that's a separate release notes section rather than in the changelog itself, 
so be it, but we've now completely lost the section that we were using for 
that sort of thing. Instead, it's now simply a link to a bunch of bugzilla 
entries.

- Jonathan M Davis


P.S. Also, as a future improvement, we _really_ shouldn't be linking to 
bugzilla for our list. I've never seen a release notes document or changelog 
do that in my entire life. It would be _far_ more user friendly to list the 
changes like we did before with the bug number for each entry linking to the 
bug report (and it's what most projects to do from what I've seen). 
Automatically generating the list of bug fixes is great (and a definite step 
forward), but the current presentation leaves a lot to be desired.

Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release


On 1/3/2013 9:49 PM, Jonathan M Davis wrote:

but other lines like

$(LI std.string: $(RED The implementations of std.string.format and
string.sformat have been replaced with improved implementations which conform
to writef. In some, rare cases, this will break code. Please see the
documentation for std.string.format and std.string.sformat for details.))


Yes, you can put this in as the bugzilla title, though I'd tighten it up a 
little.



$(LI std.range.hasSlicing has been made stricter in an effort to make it more
reliable. opSlice for infinite ranges must now return the result of
std.range.take, and any range with slicing which supports $(D $) must now
support it with the same semantics as arrays (including supporting subtraction
for finite ranges).)


This is 3 separate enhancements, each of which should be its own issue, and will 
certainly fit as the issue title.




Automating the bug list is fine, but don't throw away all of the non-bugzilla
stuff that we've been putting in the changelog.


Nothing has been deleted. In fact, I think those previous items in the 2.060 
New/Changed Features are seriously deficient because they contain no hyperlinks 
for more information.


But, as I mentioned to Leandro, if someone wants to add some additional notes to 
the changelog file, that's great. But somebody has to do the work, and in the 
past there generally hasn't been much effort expended there.


Me, I've spent more time than I care to think about keeping that list manually 
updated, badly.

Re: Managing email [ was Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release ]


On 1/3/2013 8:25 PM, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:

Andrei I know better than run my own SMTP/IMAP servers Alexandrescu


All we need now is a Penny.

Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release


On 1/3/2013 7:44 PM, Bernard Helyer wrote:

* I'm still going to complain. :P


My dad always told me that the time to worry is when there's no grumbling :-)

Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release

On Thursday, January 03, 2013 23:03:23 Walter Bright wrote:
 This is 3 separate enhancements, each of which should be its own issue, and
 will certainly fit as the issue title.

If you think that these work as titles in bugzilla issues, you're missing the 
point. They're notes that need to be given some prominence and brought to 
developers' attention, not simply be listed randomly among a bunch of bugzilla 
enhancement titles.

 But, as I mentioned to Leandro, if someone wants to add some additional
 notes to the changelog file, that's great. But somebody has to do the work,
 and in the past there generally hasn't been much effort expended there.

Fine, but then it needs to be clear where those changes are made. I'm one of 
the people who has generally tried to keep Phobos' and druntime's changelog.dd 
files up-to-date with changes. But I have no idea where else you'd want it. 
changelog.dd in d-programming-language.org does not appear to match what's on 
the website. It seems to list a lot of bugs explictly for 2.061.

- Jonathan M Davis

Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release


On 1/3/2013 10:42 PM, Walter Bright wrote:

Nobody has put forth that effort in the
past, resulting in the changelog being pretty crummy and woefully incomplete.


I apologize to Jonathan for that remark, because Jonathan has been putting out 
an effort on this.

Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release


On 1/3/2013 11:15 PM, Jonathan M Davis wrote:

On Thursday, January 03, 2013 23:03:23 Walter Bright wrote:

This is 3 separate enhancements, each of which should be its own issue, and
will certainly fit as the issue title.


If you think that these work as titles in bugzilla issues, you're missing the
point. They're notes that need to be given some prominence and brought to
developers' attention, not simply be listed randomly among a bunch of bugzilla
enhancement titles.


But, as I mentioned to Leandro, if someone wants to add some additional
notes to the changelog file, that's great. But somebody has to do the work,
and in the past there generally hasn't been much effort expended there.


Fine, but then it needs to be clear where those changes are made. I'm one of
the people who has generally tried to keep Phobos' and druntime's changelog.dd
files up-to-date with changes.


Yes, I know, and I appreciate that.


But I have no idea where else you'd want it.
changelog.dd in d-programming-language.org does not appear to match what's on
the website. It seems to list a lot of bugs explictly for 2.061.


They're commented out with the $(COMMENT ...) macro.

Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release

2013-01-02 Thread bearophile


Are you going to remove the D1 compiler parts of code in the D2
compiler source code? A leaner source base will help.

Also this transitional moment seems a good moment to rename the
.c suffix of the frontend+backend C++ files to .cpp or
something like that.


I have to warn people that if they want to suddenly switch from
2.060 to 2.061 with no intermediate steps, probably some of their
code will break, and they will have to work to fix it.

Bye,
bearophile

Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release

On Wednesday, January 02, 2013 09:12:49 bearophile wrote:
 I have to warn people that if they want to suddenly switch from
 2.060 to 2.061 with no intermediate steps, probably some of their
 code will break, and they will have to work to fix it.

Why?

- Jonathan M davis

Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release

2013-01-02 Thread bearophile


Jonathan M Davis:


Why?


Because the two numbers 2.060 and 2.061 look very very 
similar, so people that see them risk thinking they are just two 
nearly identical releases of the same compiler. But many months 
have passed between those two versions, many bugs have being 
removed, several features have being introduced, and so on (just 
look at the difference in the zip size between the two versions), 
so it's better for the users to be aware that some probably some 
user code will need to be fixed or improved to run on the 2.061.


Bye,
bearophile

Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release

On Wednesday, January 02, 2013 10:19:54 bearophile wrote:
 Jonathan M Davis:
  Why?
 
 Because the two numbers 2.060 and 2.061 look very very
 similar, so people that see them risk thinking they are just two
 nearly identical releases of the same compiler. But many months
 have passed between those two versions, many bugs have being
 removed, several features have being introduced, and so on (just
 look at the difference in the zip size between the two versions),
 so it's better for the users to be aware that some probably some
 user code will need to be fixed or improved to run on the 2.061.

And how is that any different from any other release?

- Jonathan M Davis

Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release

2013-01-02 Thread bearophile


Jonathan M Davis:


And how is that any different from any other release?


How much time used to pass between two adjacent releases, in past?

Bye,
bearophile

Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release


On 2013-01-02 00:46, Walter Bright wrote:


2. the OS X package hasn't been built yet (problems with the package
script).


What isn't working? Is there something I can do to help?

--
/Jacob Carlborg

Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release


On 2013-01-02 12:55, bearophile wrote:

Jonathan M Davis:


And how is that any different from any other release?


How much time used to pass between two adjacent releases, in past?

Bye,
bearophile


Around a month, perhaps.

--
/Jacob Carlborg

Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release


On 2013-01-02 00:46, Walter Bright wrote:


2. the OS X package hasn't been built yet (problems with the package
script).


I think this will fix the problem:

https://github.com/D-Programming-Language/installer/pull/9

I don't know if this is the problem you encountered but:

PackageMaker is apparently not included with Xcode anymore. It's not 
included in the auxiliary package which can be downloaded here:


https://developer.apple.com/downloads/index.action

The script now assumes PackageMaker is installed either in 
/Applications/PackageMaker.app/Contents/MacOS/PackageMaker or, as 
before, /Developer/usr/bin/packagemaker.


--
/Jacob Carlborg

Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release

2013-01-02 Thread David Eagen

On Wednesday, 2 January 2013 at 08:20:41 UTC, Jonathan M Davis 
wrote:

On Wednesday, January 02, 2013 09:12:49 bearophile wrote:

I have to warn people that if they want to suddenly switch from
2.060 to 2.061 with no intermediate steps, probably some of 
their

code will break, and they will have to work to fix it.


Why?

- Jonathan M davis


I have noticed my project doesn't compile with 2.061 when it did 
with 2.060. I am using a few different static libraries, one of 
them is thrift.


I had to recompile the libraries I use with 2.061 which meant I 
had to rebuild thrift and the thrift generated libraries. Once I 
did that I could compile just fine. But before that I got the 
errors below.


I am on 64-bit Ubuntu (AMD64).

/persist/apps/lib/libthriftd.a(base_1_403.o): In function 
`_D6thrift4base10TException6__ctorMFAyaAyamC6object9ThrowableZC6thrift4base10TException':
src/thrift/base.d:(.text._D6thrift4base10TException6__ctorMFAyaAyamC6object9ThrowableZC6thrift4base10TException+0x31): 
undefined reference to 
`_D6object9Exception6__ctorMFAyaAyamC6object9ThrowableZC9Exception'
/persist/apps/lib/libthriftd.a(format_19a_f6c.o): In function 
`_D3std6format62__T11formatRangeTS3std5array16__T8AppenderTAaZ8AppenderTAyaTaZ11formatRangeFKS3std5array16__T8AppenderTAaZ8AppenderKAyaKS3std6format18__T10FormatSpecTaZ10FormatSpecZv':
/persist/apps/dmd/linux/bin64/../../src/phobos/std/format.d:(.text._D3std6format62__T11formatRangeTS3std5array16__T8AppenderTAaZ8AppenderTAyaTaZ11formatRangeFKS3std5array16__T8AppenderTAaZ8AppenderKAyaKS3std6format18__T10FormatSpecTaZ10FormatSpecZv+0x519): 
undefined reference to 
`_D6object9Exception6__ctorMFAyaAyamC6object9ThrowableZC9Exception'
/persist/apps/lib/libthriftd.a(format_518_1094.o): In function 
`_D3std6format81__T11formatRangeTS3std5array17__T8AppenderTAyaZ8AppenderTAC3std6socket7AddressTaZ11formatRangeFKS3std5array17__T8AppenderTAyaZ8AppenderKAC3std6socket7AddressKS3std6format18__T10FormatSpecTaZ10FormatSpecZv':
/persist/apps/dmd/linux/bin64/../../src/phobos/std/format.d:(.text._D3std6format81__T11formatRangeTS3std5array17__T8AppenderTAyaZ8AppenderTAC3std6socket7AddressTaZ11formatRangeFKS3std5array17__T8AppenderTAyaZ8AppenderKAC3std6socket7AddressKS3std6format18__T10FormatSpecTaZ10FormatSpecZv+0x370): 
undefined reference to 
`_D6object9Exception6__ctorMFAyaAyamC6object9ThrowableZC9Exception'
/persist/apps/lib/libthriftd.a(format_528_117d.o): In function 
`_D3std6format72__T11formatRangeTS3std5array17__T8AppenderTAyaZ8AppenderTAC9ExceptionTaZ11formatRangeFKS3std5array17__T8AppenderTAyaZ8AppenderKAC9ExceptionKS3std6format18__T10FormatSpecTaZ10FormatSpecZv':
/persist/apps/dmd/linux/bin64/../../src/phobos/std/format.d:(.text._D3std6format72__T11formatRangeTS3std5array17__T8AppenderTAyaZ8AppenderTAC9ExceptionTaZ11formatRangeFKS3std5array17__T8AppenderTAyaZ8AppenderKAC9ExceptionKS3std6format18__T10FormatSpecTaZ10FormatSpecZv+0x370): 
undefined reference to 
`_D6object9Exception6__ctorMFAyaAyamC6object9ThrowableZC9Exception'
/persist/apps/lib/libthriftd.a(format_555_f95.o): In function 
`_D3std6format327__T11formatRangeTS3std5array17__T8AppenderTAyaZ8AppenderTS3std9algorithm235__T6joinerTS3std9algorithm191__T9MapResultS1123std10functional85__T8unaryFunVAyaa32_7465787428612e5f302c20603a2022602c20612e5f312e6d73672c2060226029Z8unaryFunTS3std5range43__T3ZipTAC3std6socket7AddressTAC9ExceptionZ3ZipZ9MapResultTAyaZ6joiner6ResultTaZ11formatRangeFKS3std5array17__T8AppenderTAyaZ8AppenderKS3std9algorithm235__T6joinerTS3std9algorithm191__T9MapResultS1123std10functional85__T8unaryFunVAyaa32_7465787428612e5f302c20603a2022602c20612e5f312e6d73672c2060226029Z8unaryFunTS3std5range43__T3ZipTAC3std6socket7AddressTAC9ExceptionZ3ZipZ9MapResultTAyaZ6joinerFS3std9algorithm191__T9MapResultS1123std10functional85__T8unaryFunVAyaa32_7465787428612e5f302c20603a2022602c20612e5f312e6d73672c2060226029Z8unaryFunTS3std5range43__T3ZipTAC3std6socket7AddressTAC9ExceptionZ3ZipZ9MapResultAyaZS3std9algorithm235__T6joinerTS3std9algorithm191__T9MapResultS1123std10functional85__T8unaryFunVAyaa32_7465!

787428612e5f302c20603a2022602c20612e5f312e6d73672c2060226029Z8unaryFunTS3std5range43__T3ZipTAC3std6socket7AddressTAC9ExceptionZ3ZipZ9MapResultTAyaZ6joiner6Result6ResultKS3std6format18__T10FormatSpecTaZ10FormatSpecZv':

Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release

2013-01-02 Thread Johannes Pfau

Am Wed, 02 Jan 2013 15:14:53 +0100
schrieb David Eagen davidea...@mailinator.com:

 On Wednesday, 2 January 2013 at 08:20:41 UTC, Jonathan M Davis 
 wrote:
  On Wednesday, January 02, 2013 09:12:49 bearophile wrote:
  I have to warn people that if they want to suddenly switch from
  2.060 to 2.061 with no intermediate steps, probably some of 
  their
  code will break, and they will have to work to fix it.
 
  Why?
 
  - Jonathan M davis
 
 I have noticed my project doesn't compile with 2.061 when it did 
 with 2.060. I am using a few different static libraries, one of 
 them is thrift.
 
 I had to recompile the libraries I use with 2.061 which meant I 
 had to rebuild thrift and the thrift generated libraries. Once I 
 did that I could compile just fine. But before that I got the 
 errors below.
 
 I am on 64-bit Ubuntu (AMD64).
 

That's unfortunately normal for every dmd release. We try to stay API
compatible, but ABI usually breaks with every compiler/druntime/phobos
update. This means you can't mix object/library files compiled with
different compiler versions.

(An example of a ABI breaking change is everything which changes the
mangled name: adding the safe/trusted attribute, pure, nothrow,
property)

Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release


On 1/2/2013 4:12 AM, Jacob Carlborg wrote:

On 2013-01-02 00:46, Walter Bright wrote:


2. the OS X package hasn't been built yet (problems with the package
script).


What isn't working? Is there something I can do to help?



The various packages are all built on Ubuntu. The OS X one failed because it 
couldn't find ruby, and ruby does not work on Ubuntu (at least my version of 
Ubuntu - there is no ruby package for it).


Looks like my mistake is I should have run it on OS X.

Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release

2013-01-02 Thread Iain Buclaw


On Wednesday, 2 January 2013 at 17:53:58 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:

On 1/2/2013 4:12 AM, Jacob Carlborg wrote:

On 2013-01-02 00:46, Walter Bright wrote:

2. the OS X package hasn't been built yet (problems with the 
package

script).


What isn't working? Is there something I can do to help?



The various packages are all built on Ubuntu. The OS X one 
failed because it couldn't find ruby, and ruby does not work on 
Ubuntu (at least my version of Ubuntu - there is no ruby 
package for it).





Really?   http://packages.ubuntu.com/quantal/ruby

Also, what's the dependency on ruby for?

Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release


On 1/2/2013 7:27 AM, Johannes Pfau wrote:

That's unfortunately normal for every dmd release. We try to stay API
compatible, but ABI usually breaks with every compiler/druntime/phobos
update. This means you can't mix object/library files compiled with
different compiler versions.


I go to some effort to avoid binary breakage with D1, but there's too much 
changing to make this work with D2 yet, so I settle for trying to not break 
source compatibility.

Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release


On 1/2/2013 9:59 AM, Iain Buclaw wrote:

On Wednesday, 2 January 2013 at 17:53:58 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:

On 1/2/2013 4:12 AM, Jacob Carlborg wrote:

On 2013-01-02 00:46, Walter Bright wrote:


2. the OS X package hasn't been built yet (problems with the package
script).


What isn't working? Is there something I can do to help?



The various packages are all built on Ubuntu. The OS X one failed because it
couldn't find ruby, and ruby does not work on Ubuntu (at least my version of
Ubuntu - there is no ruby package for it).




Really?   http://packages.ubuntu.com/quantal/ruby


Yeah, really. sudo apt-get ruby fails on Ubuntu 10.10.



Also, what's the dependency on ruby for?


The OS X install package builder is written in ruby.

Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release

On Wed, 2013-01-02 at 09:53 -0800, Walter Bright wrote:
[…]
 The various packages are all built on Ubuntu. The OS X one failed because it 
 couldn't find ruby, and ruby does not work on Ubuntu (at least my version of 
 Ubuntu - there is no ruby package for it).

There has been a Ruby package on Ubuntu from the beginning, because
Debian has had a Ruby package from the beginning. I'm afraid if your
Ubuntu doesn't have ruby then the system administrator simply needs to
install it.

As evidence for much of the claim made above I present
http://packages.ubuntu.com/search?keywords=rubysearchon=namessuite=allsection=all

Evidence is only partial as only information about maintained versions
is present.

 Looks like my mistake is I should have run it on OS X.

I think this is true as well ;-)

-- 
Russel.
=
Dr Russel Winder  t: +44 20 7585 2200   voip: sip:russel.win...@ekiga.net
41 Buckmaster Roadm: +44 7770 465 077   xmpp: rus...@winder.org.uk
London SW11 1EN, UK   w: www.russel.org.uk  skype: russel_winder


signature.asc
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Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release

On Wed, 2013-01-02 at 10:07 -0800, Walter Bright wrote:
[…]
 Yeah, really. sudo apt-get ruby fails on Ubuntu 10.10.

Any and all apt-related commands are likely to fail for that version of
Ubuntu, it is no longer supported.  Definitely need to stick with LTS
version of Ubuntu or keep up to date, should be on 12.10 by now.

Also need to consider formally supporting Mint now that Ubuntu is no
longer the Linux distribution of choice in the Debian-based camp.

  Also, what's the dependency on ruby for?
 
 The OS X install package builder is written in ruby.

Ruby, Perl and Python should all be considered as required
infrastructure in this day and age.  It should Just Work™.

-- 
Russel.
=
Dr Russel Winder  t: +44 20 7585 2200   voip: sip:russel.win...@ekiga.net
41 Buckmaster Roadm: +44 7770 465 077   xmpp: rus...@winder.org.uk
London SW11 1EN, UK   w: www.russel.org.uk  skype: russel_winder


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Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release

Al 02/01/13 19:07, En/na Walter Bright ha escrit:

 Really?   http://packages.ubuntu.com/quantal/ruby
 
 Yeah, really. sudo apt-get ruby fails on Ubuntu 10.10.

$ sudo apt-get install ruby

-- 
Jordi Sayol

Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release


On 1/2/2013 10:37 AM, Jordi Sayol wrote:

Al 02/01/13 19:07, En/na Walter Bright ha escrit:


Really?   http://packages.ubuntu.com/quantal/ruby


Yeah, really. sudo apt-get ruby fails on Ubuntu 10.10.


$ sudo apt-get install ruby


That's what I did try, and yes, it fails too.

Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release


On 1/2/2013 10:17 AM, Russel Winder wrote:

On Wed, 2013-01-02 at 10:07 -0800, Walter Bright wrote:
[…]

Yeah, really. sudo apt-get ruby fails on Ubuntu 10.10.


Any and all apt-related commands are likely to fail for that version of
Ubuntu, it is no longer supported.  Definitely need to stick with LTS
version of Ubuntu or keep up to date, should be on 12.10 by now.


I've been avoiding upgrading Ubuntu, because the last time I did that the 
installer trashed everything. Lost a day on that one.


P.S. The Mac is the only machine I've ever been able to upgrade the operating 
system on that worked without trashing everything and forcing a reinstall from 
scratch.

Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release

On Wed, 2013-01-02 at 10:47 -0800, Walter Bright wrote:
 On 1/2/2013 10:37 AM, Jordi Sayol wrote:
  Al 02/01/13 19:07, En/na Walter Bright ha escrit:
 
  Really?   http://packages.ubuntu.com/quantal/ruby
 
  Yeah, really. sudo apt-get ruby fails on Ubuntu 10.10.
 
  $ sudo apt-get install ruby
 
 That's what I did try, and yes, it fails too.

To be expected in the circumstances since 10.10 is no longer supported.

-- 
Russel.
=
Dr Russel Winder  t: +44 20 7585 2200   voip: sip:russel.win...@ekiga.net
41 Buckmaster Roadm: +44 7770 465 077   xmpp: rus...@winder.org.uk
London SW11 1EN, UK   w: www.russel.org.uk  skype: russel_winder


signature.asc
Description: This is a digitally signed message part

Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release

On Wed, 2013-01-02 at 10:51 -0800, Walter Bright wrote:
[…]
 I've been avoiding upgrading Ubuntu, because the last time I did that the 
 installer trashed everything. Lost a day on that one.

Just because it happened once doesn't mean it will always happen.

Until I abandoned all use of Ubuntu, I had never had an upgrade crash
that didn't correct itself on appropriate rerun. You are the only person
I know that had a total trashing due to installer fail.

Reinstalling from scratch does not take a whole day. 2 hours maybe.

 P.S. The Mac is the only machine I've ever been able to upgrade the operating 
 system on that worked without trashing everything and forcing a reinstall 
 from 
 scratch.

I have the opposite experience, Apple hardware seems incapable of
upgrading operating systems.  Their policy seems to be you want a new
operating system, then buy a new piece of hardware from the store.

-- 
Russel.
=
Dr Russel Winder  t: +44 20 7585 2200   voip: sip:russel.win...@ekiga.net
41 Buckmaster Roadm: +44 7770 465 077   xmpp: rus...@winder.org.uk
London SW11 1EN, UK   w: www.russel.org.uk  skype: russel_winder


signature.asc
Description: This is a digitally signed message part

Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release

Al 02/01/13 19:47, En/na Walter Bright ha escrit:
 On 1/2/2013 10:37 AM, Jordi Sayol wrote:
 Al 02/01/13 19:07, En/na Walter Bright ha escrit:

 Really?   http://packages.ubuntu.com/quantal/ruby

 Yeah, really. sudo apt-get ruby fails on Ubuntu 10.10.

 $ sudo apt-get install ruby
 
 That's what I did try, and yes, it fails too.
 

I don't know why.

In a Ubuntu 10.04.4 LTS, the command:
$ sudo apt-get install ruby
installs these three packages:
ruby
ruby1.8
libruby1.8

Otherwise is that ruby version is lower that required.

Best regards,
-- 
Jordi Sayol

Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release


On 1/2/2013 11:09 AM, Russel Winder wrote:

On Wed, 2013-01-02 at 10:51 -0800, Walter Bright wrote:
[…]

I've been avoiding upgrading Ubuntu, because the last time I did that the
installer trashed everything. Lost a day on that one.


Just because it happened once doesn't mean it will always happen.

Until I abandoned all use of Ubuntu, I had never had an upgrade crash
that didn't correct itself on appropriate rerun. You are the only person
I know that had a total trashing due to installer fail.

Reinstalling from scratch does not take a whole day. 2 hours maybe.


It does when you don't remember what goes in the host file, what you had 
installed, redoing all the ssh keys, etc. It also deleted all my virtual boxes, 
I never did figure out how to get them working again. I simply gave up on 
virtual boxes as more trouble than they're worth.


It also nuked all my mail and calender data, which is why I don't use Ubuntu for 
mail or calender anymore, nor do I use it for music (same thing happened).




P.S. The Mac is the only machine I've ever been able to upgrade the operating
system on that worked without trashing everything and forcing a reinstall from
scratch.


I have the opposite experience, Apple hardware seems incapable of
upgrading operating systems.  Their policy seems to be you want a new
operating system, then buy a new piece of hardware from the store.


The only actual trouble I had was the installer assumed a screen larger than the 
one I had, and insisted on putting the [next] button off the bottom of the 
screen. Argh.


P.S. I like calendar programs, but on Windows and Ubuntu, upgrading the OS 
inevitably deletes the calendar database. None of those frackin' calendar 
programs ever deign to tell me where they store their frackin' database, so I 
can back it up. I really, really don't understand mail and calendar programs 
that make it difficult to back up the data. I quit using Outlook Express because 
it stored the mail database in a hidden directory. WTF? Thunderbird is better, 
but not much.

Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release


On 1/2/2013 11:09 AM, Jordi Sayol wrote:

I don't know why.



mercury ~ sudo apt-get install ruby
[sudo] password for walter:
Reading package lists... Done
Building dependency tree
Reading state information... Done
The following packages were automatically installed and are no longer required:
  linux-headers-2.6.35-22-generic linux-headers-2.6.35-22
Use 'apt-get autoremove' to remove them.
The following extra packages will be installed:
  libreadline5 libruby1.8 ruby1.8
Suggested packages:
  ri ruby-dev ruby1.8-examples ri1.8
The following NEW packages will be installed:
  libreadline5 libruby1.8 ruby ruby1.8
0 upgraded, 4 newly installed, 0 to remove and 0 not upgraded.
Need to get 1,841kB/2,010kB of archives.
After this operation, 8,266kB of additional disk space will be used.
Do you want to continue [Y/n]? Y
WARNING: The following packages cannot be authenticated!
  libreadline5 libruby1.8 ruby1.8 ruby
Install these packages without verification [y/N]? Y
Err http://us.archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/ maverick-updates/main libruby1.8 amd64 
1.8.7.299-2ubuntu0.1

  404  Not Found [IP: 91.189.91.15 80]
Err http://security.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/ maverick-security/main libruby1.8 amd64 
1.8.7.299-2ubuntu0.1

  404  Not Found
Err http://security.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/ maverick-security/main ruby1.8 amd64 
1.8.7.299-2ubuntu0.1

  404  Not Found
Failed to fetch 
http://security.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/pool/main/r/ruby1.8/libruby1.8_1.8.7.299-2ubuntu0.1_amd64.deb 
 404  Not Found
Failed to fetch 
http://security.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/pool/main/r/ruby1.8/ruby1.8_1.8.7.299-2ubuntu0.1_amd64.deb 
 404  Not Found
E: Unable to fetch some archives, maybe run apt-get update or try with 
--fix-missing?

mercury ~

Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release


On 1/2/2013 11:05 AM, Russel Winder wrote:

To be expected in the circumstances since 10.10 is no longer supported.



Looks like I'll have to hold my nose and push the upgrade button, but after this 
release is settled down.


Does the latest Ubuntu work properly with SSD drives? I know 10.10 does not. I 
have an extra SSD drive I want to try.

Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release

On Wednesday, January 02, 2013 03:20:27 Jonathan M Davis wrote:
 On Wednesday, January 02, 2013 10:19:54 bearophile wrote:
  Jonathan M Davis:
   Why?
  
  Because the two numbers 2.060 and 2.061 look very very
  similar, so people that see them risk thinking they are just two
  nearly identical releases of the same compiler. But many months
  have passed between those two versions, many bugs have being
  removed, several features have being introduced, and so on (just
  look at the difference in the zip size between the two versions),
  so it's better for the users to be aware that some probably some
  user code will need to be fixed or improved to run on the 2.061.
 
 And how is that any different from any other release?

Two to three months generally of the past few years, so this release has been 
much delayed in comparison, but that doesn't really change anything. You have 
the same risk of things breaking that you normally do. Any bug fix risks 
breaking code. The only difference is that there are more bugs which have been 
fixed. It's quite possible that way more code broke between 2.059 and 2.060 
than it did between 2.060 and 2.061. I see no reason to call out this release 
as being particularly dangerous. If anyone is concerned about the amount of
time between releases, they can see that easily enough in the changelog.

- Jonathan M Davis

Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release

Al 02/01/13 20:28, En/na Walter Bright ha escrit:
 On 1/2/2013 11:09 AM, Jordi Sayol wrote:
 I don't know why.
 
 
 mercury ~ sudo apt-get install ruby
 [sudo] password for walter:
 Reading package lists... Done
 Building dependency tree
 Reading state information... Done
 The following packages were automatically installed and are no longer 
 required:
   linux-headers-2.6.35-22-generic linux-headers-2.6.35-22
 Use 'apt-get autoremove' to remove them.
 The following extra packages will be installed:
   libreadline5 libruby1.8 ruby1.8
 Suggested packages:
   ri ruby-dev ruby1.8-examples ri1.8
 The following NEW packages will be installed:
   libreadline5 libruby1.8 ruby ruby1.8
 0 upgraded, 4 newly installed, 0 to remove and 0 not upgraded.
 Need to get 1,841kB/2,010kB of archives.
 After this operation, 8,266kB of additional disk space will be used.
 Do you want to continue [Y/n]? Y
 WARNING: The following packages cannot be authenticated!
   libreadline5 libruby1.8 ruby1.8 ruby
 Install these packages without verification [y/N]? Y
 Err http://us.archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/ maverick-updates/main libruby1.8 
 amd64 1.8.7.299-2ubuntu0.1
   404  Not Found [IP: 91.189.91.15 80]
 Err http://security.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/ maverick-security/main libruby1.8 
 amd64 1.8.7.299-2ubuntu0.1
   404  Not Found
 Err http://security.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/ maverick-security/main ruby1.8 amd64 
 1.8.7.299-2ubuntu0.1
   404  Not Found
 Failed to fetch 
 http://security.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/pool/main/r/ruby1.8/libruby1.8_1.8.7.299-2ubuntu0.1_amd64.deb
   404  Not Found
 Failed to fetch 
 http://security.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/pool/main/r/ruby1.8/ruby1.8_1.8.7.299-2ubuntu0.1_amd64.deb
   404  Not Found
 E: Unable to fetch some archives, maybe run apt-get update or try with 
 --fix-missing?
 mercury ~
 

You're right. Ubuntu 10.10 is not longer supported, so the repositories are not 
available.

Sorry, I didn't understand you. A rolling release will avoid this problem.

-- 
Jordi Sayol

Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release

Al 02/01/13 19:51, En/na Walter Bright ha escrit:
 On 1/2/2013 10:17 AM, Russel Winder wrote:
 On Wed, 2013-01-02 at 10:07 -0800, Walter Bright wrote:
 […]
 Yeah, really. sudo apt-get ruby fails on Ubuntu 10.10.

 Any and all apt-related commands are likely to fail for that version of
 Ubuntu, it is no longer supported.  Definitely need to stick with LTS
 version of Ubuntu or keep up to date, should be on 12.10 by now.
 
 I've been avoiding upgrading Ubuntu, because the last time I did that the 
 installer trashed everything. Lost a day on that one.
 
 P.S. The Mac is the only machine I've ever been able to upgrade the operating 
 system on that worked without trashing everything and forcing a reinstall 
 from scratch.
 
 

Walter, to avoid this problem you can install a rolling release like Linux 
Mint Debian Edition, based on Debian testing.
You just need to keep it upgraded with mintUpdate manager (shield on panel). 
Read the Update pack info before.

This month is scheduled to be a new LMDE DVD ISO release.

Regards,
-- 
Jordi Sayol

Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release

2013-01-02 Thread Dmitry Olshansky


1/2/2013 11:24 PM, Walter Bright пишет:

On 1/2/2013 11:09 AM, Russel Winder wrote:

On Wed, 2013-01-02 at 10:51 -0800, Walter Bright wrote:
[…]

I've been avoiding upgrading Ubuntu, because the last time I did that
the
installer trashed everything. Lost a day on that one.


Just because it happened once doesn't mean it will always happen.

Until I abandoned all use of Ubuntu, I had never had an upgrade crash
that didn't correct itself on appropriate rerun. You are the only person
I know that had a total trashing due to installer fail.

Reinstalling from scratch does not take a whole day. 2 hours maybe.


It does when you don't remember what goes in the host file, what you had
installed, redoing all the ssh keys, etc. It also deleted all my virtual
boxes, I never did figure out how to get them working again. I simply
gave up on virtual boxes as more trouble than they're worth.



While I've found them to be quite easy to migrate and use. If virtual 
hard disk can be found/recovered you don't need the settings and other 
crap as these are re-created in matter of minutes. There are even 
pre-constructed images of various OS+software stack to be found on the web.



P.S. I like calendar programs, but on Windows and Ubuntu, upgrading the
OS inevitably deletes the calendar database. None of those frackin'
calendar programs ever deign to tell me where they store their frackin'
database, so I can back it up. I really, really don't understand mail
and calendar programs that make it difficult to back up the data. I quit
using Outlook Express because it stored the mail database in a hidden
directory. WTF? Thunderbird is better, but not much.


On latest Windows OS-es almost everything is in AppData\Roaming + 
AppData\Roaming in \Users directory. Just copying them over and 
reinstalling the apps seems to work (I only tried Thunderbird and couple 
of others though).


--
Dmitry Olshansky

Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release


On 2013-01-02 20:09, Russel Winder wrote:


I have the opposite experience, Apple hardware seems incapable of
upgrading operating systems.  Their policy seems to be you want a new
operating system, then buy a new piece of hardware from the store.


I've been updating a couple of Macs from 10.6 through 10.7 to 10.8 
without any problems. I'm still using an old Macbook that was shipped 
with 10.4, it's running 10.7 now. Although that has had a couple of 
reinstalls.


--
/Jacob Carlborg

Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release


On 2013-01-02 19:51, Walter Bright wrote:


I've been avoiding upgrading Ubuntu, because the last time I did that
the installer trashed everything. Lost a day on that one.


That's what backups are for :)

--
/Jacob Carlborg

Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release


On 1/2/2013 12:01 PM, Dmitry Olshansky wrote:

P.S. I like calendar programs, but on Windows and Ubuntu, upgrading the
OS inevitably deletes the calendar database. None of those frackin'
calendar programs ever deign to tell me where they store their frackin'
database, so I can back it up. I really, really don't understand mail
and calendar programs that make it difficult to back up the data. I quit
using Outlook Express because it stored the mail database in a hidden
directory. WTF? Thunderbird is better, but not much.


On latest Windows OS-es almost everything is in AppData\Roaming +
AppData\Roaming in \Users directory. Just copying them over and reinstalling the
apps seems to work (I only tried Thunderbird and couple of others though).


Windows has gotten better in this regard, that is true.

But it's still bizarre that, with Thunderbird, you can export/import the address 
book, but not the mail database.


A welcome improvement would be to have a button to export/import the whole 
farkin' thing.


Instead, when I installed TB on my laptop, I had to open the account settings on 
my desktop, and screen by screen, manually copy the data into my laptop TB 
install. A long and tedious and error-prone process, as there are endless 
screens and config settings.

Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release


On 2013-01-02 18:53, Walter Bright wrote:


The various packages are all built on Ubuntu. The OS X one failed
because it couldn't find ruby, and ruby does not work on Ubuntu (at
least my version of Ubuntu - there is no ruby package for it).

Looks like my mistake is I should have run it on OS X.


Yeah, that's a requirement. Andrei has ported the Ruby script to shell 
script and created a pull request:


https://github.com/D-Programming-Language/installer/pull/10

--
/Jacob Carlborg

Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release


On 2013-01-02 21:37, Walter Bright wrote:


Windows has gotten better in this regard, that is true.

But it's still bizarre that, with Thunderbird, you can export/import the
address book, but not the mail database.

A welcome improvement would be to have a button to export/import the
whole farkin' thing.

Instead, when I installed TB on my laptop, I had to open the account
settings on my desktop, and screen by screen, manually copy the data
into my laptop TB install. A long and tedious and error-prone process,
as there are endless screens and config settings.


Copying the thunderbird profile directory should do the trick:

http://kb.mozillazine.org/Profile_folder_-_Thunderbird

I've created a symlink for the newsgroups messages pointing to dropbox 
to get synchronization.


--
/Jacob Carlborg

Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release

2013-01-02 Thread Matthew Caron


On 01/02/2013 03:37 PM, Walter Bright wrote:

But it's still bizarre that, with Thunderbird, you can export/import the
address book, but not the mail database.


Why would you need to? If your mail store is IMAP, just let it rebuild.


A welcome improvement would be to have a button to export/import the
whole farkin' thing.

Instead, when I installed TB on my laptop, I had to open the account
settings on my desktop, and screen by screen, manually copy the data
into my laptop TB install. A long and tedious and error-prone process,
as there are endless screens and config settings.



scp -rp ~/.thunderbird target machine

will shove your whole TB directory to the new box.

unison and/or rsync will keep it synced. I prefer unison because it's bidi.

I don't have any suggestions for automagic cloud sync because I don't 
like automagic cloud sync.



--
Matthew Caron, Software Build Engineer
Sixnet, a Red Lion business | www.sixnet.com
+1 (518) 877-5173 x138 office

Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release


On 1/2/2013 12:47 PM, Jacob Carlborg wrote:

On 2013-01-02 21:37, Walter Bright wrote:


Windows has gotten better in this regard, that is true.

But it's still bizarre that, with Thunderbird, you can export/import the
address book, but not the mail database.

A welcome improvement would be to have a button to export/import the
whole farkin' thing.

Instead, when I installed TB on my laptop, I had to open the account
settings on my desktop, and screen by screen, manually copy the data
into my laptop TB install. A long and tedious and error-prone process,
as there are endless screens and config settings.


Copying the thunderbird profile directory should do the trick:

http://kb.mozillazine.org/Profile_folder_-_Thunderbird


I've suffered trying to figure out that page many times. It's exactly why a 
button is needed.

Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release


On 1/2/2013 12:56 PM, Matthew Caron wrote:

On 01/02/2013 03:37 PM, Walter Bright wrote:

But it's still bizarre that, with Thunderbird, you can export/import the
address book, but not the mail database.


Why would you need to? If your mail store is IMAP, just let it rebuild.


I don't store email on the server, I store it locally.



A welcome improvement would be to have a button to export/import the
whole farkin' thing.

Instead, when I installed TB on my laptop, I had to open the account
settings on my desktop, and screen by screen, manually copy the data
into my laptop TB install. A long and tedious and error-prone process,
as there are endless screens and config settings.



scp -rp ~/.thunderbird target machine

will shove your whole TB directory to the new box.


Doesn't work on Windows. Anyhow, the TB documentation never says this. Nor does 
that help you if you just want to move account settings over rather than the 
entire 10 years worth of mail. (I generally limit what I put on my laptop, in 
case I lose it!)


What is the rationale behind import/export of address books, and not doing that 
for anything else?

Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release


On 1/2/2013 12:36 PM, Jacob Carlborg wrote:

On 2013-01-02 19:51, Walter Bright wrote:


I've been avoiding upgrading Ubuntu, because the last time I did that
the installer trashed everything. Lost a day on that one.


That's what backups are for :)



Having backups doesn't work so good when the versions and settings change with a 
new OS.

Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release

On Wednesday, January 02, 2013 13:18:02 Walter Bright wrote:
 What is the rationale behind import/export of address books, and not doing
 that for anything else?

I don't know. kmail has basically the same problem. It drives me nuts that you 
can't export accounts. It makes setting up a new machine a royal pain when you 
have something like a dozen different e-mail addresses to set up. So, I always 
try and copy the config files, but I've only figured out which ones those are 
via 
trial and error, and sometimes things get screwed up enough that you just have 
to start from scratch again, which is no fun at all. Being able to export 
accounts would be a _huge_ gain.

- Jonathan M Davis

Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release

On Wed, 2013-01-02 at 11:24 -0800, Walter Bright wrote:
[…]
 It does when you don't remember what goes in the host file, what you had 
 installed, redoing all the ssh keys, etc. It also deleted all my virtual 
 boxes, 
 I never did figure out how to get them working again. I simply gave up on 
 virtual boxes as more trouble than they're worth.

Host file problem should self-organize on reinstall.

What you had isntalled is a question of regularly doing:

dpkg --get-selections  /some/place/you/remember/on/backup/machine

SSH keys can be a problem.

I don't do virtual machines, but deletion sounds like it is actually
another problem.  Virtual machines are great for training rooms.

 It also nuked all my mail and calender data, which is why I don't use Ubuntu 
 for 
 mail or calender anymore, nor do I use it for music (same thing happened).

Over-reaction to the wrong issue. Evolution is entirely fine for mail
and calendar, I use it all the time on Debian and Fedora.  Playing music
with rhythmbox also works fine on Debian and Fedora. Also with mediatomb
as a server.

Where were your backups. I can vapourize a Debian/Fedora dual boot
machine and have it up and running with the last backup up state in 2
hours. In the meantime I can be working on another machine and then have
everything sync up in a matter of minutes.  Losing mail and data and OS
configuration sounds like a lack of proper sys admin approach.

 The only actual trouble I had was the installer assumed a screen larger than 
 the 
 one I had, and insisted on putting the [next] button off the bottom of the 
 screen. Argh.

I'd agree there, I had similar problems with the Ubuntu installer, which
was turned into something horrible, but may have since evolved to be
something usable. I have never had any such problems with Debian or
Fedora installers.

 P.S. I like calendar programs, but on Windows and Ubuntu, upgrading the OS 
 inevitably deletes the calendar database. None of those frackin' calendar 
 programs ever deign to tell me where they store their frackin' database, so I 
 can back it up. I really, really don't understand mail and calendar programs 
 that make it difficult to back up the data. I quit using Outlook Express 
 because 
 it stored the mail database in a hidden directory. WTF? Thunderbird is 
 better, 
 but not much.

I think we can blame DOS and then Windows for enshrining the idea that
all configuration information should be stored in C:\ and never
replicated anywhere.

Sadly the XDG filestore specification is good but has some glaring
problems replicating configuration and cache files across machines.


-- 
Russel.
=
Dr Russel Winder  t: +44 20 7585 2200   voip: sip:russel.win...@ekiga.net
41 Buckmaster Roadm: +44 7770 465 077   xmpp: rus...@winder.org.uk
London SW11 1EN, UK   w: www.russel.org.uk  skype: russel_winder


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Re: D 1.076 and 2.061 release