[jQuery] Stop using thickbox!

[Webunity | Gilles van den Hoven]

And use my window plugin :)

Why?

Thickbox was made for images
Window plugin was made for popups (dialogs)

Just my $0.02

-- Gilles

http://gilles.jquery.com/window/

___
jQuery mailing list
discuss@jquery.com
http://jquery.com/discuss/

[jQuery] Stop using thickbox!

[Michael Holloway]

Another point towards using css over tables for layout.. It's a lot 
easier to reach semantically meaningful markup. Tables are for tabular 
data, abused by rookies of the web dev. industry for grid layouts, and 
before I get flamed for "but the client wants it to look exactly like 
x,y,z", I've been working in the industry for roughly 5 years, I know 
the pressures, but every thing's achievable using CSS (granted you need 
some lenience  on the versions  of browsers you  are going to use)

Accessibility is not just 'another point', it should be up there with 
the top priorities. If you code sites using tables purely for layout 
(for visually enabled users) you will be excluding a mass of potential 
users. To the business man / woman, this equates to money, perhaps not 
directly from ecommerce, etc, but from marketing and word-of-mouth 
potential. For what is a little bit of investment in your time to learn 
the curve of CSS, it's got to be a worthy payoff in terms of more 
customers, more fulfilling experiences for a greater range of users and 
from your point of view, you become more sought-after and marketable as 
an individual as you step out of the cowboy circle and become a 
professional.


___
jQuery mailing list
discuss@jquery.com
http://jquery.com/discuss/

Re: [jQuery] Stop using thickbox!

[Dragan Krstic]

But, I have a feelling that your plugin is very slow OTOH, semanticaly,
you are right

2006/11/25, Webunity | Gilles van den Hoven <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:


And use my window plugin :)

Why?

Thickbox was made for images
Window plugin was made for popups (dialogs)

Just my $0.02

-- Gilles

http://gilles.jquery.com/window/

___
jQuery mailing list
discuss@jquery.com
http://jquery.com/discuss/





--
Dragan Krstić krdr
http://krdr.ebloggy.com/
___
jQuery mailing list
discuss@jquery.com
http://jquery.com/discuss/

Re: [jQuery] Stop using thickbox!

[Matt Stith]

Theres many reasons why someone would want to use thickbox instead of your
plugin.

1. Your plugin uses tables, noone likes tables.
2. Your plugin is slow compared to thickbox
3. Your plugin uses a bunch of things from the Interface library, thickbox
only needs jquery.
4. Your plugin is a bit harder to use, with thickbox all you need to do is
add a class to the element, and a bit of CSS styling.
5. Tables... ew.



On 11/25/06, Webunity | Gilles van den Hoven <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


And use my window plugin :)

Why?

Thickbox was made for images
Window plugin was made for popups (dialogs)

Just my $0.02

-- Gilles

http://gilles.jquery.com/window/

___
jQuery mailing list
discuss@jquery.com
http://jquery.com/discuss/

___
jQuery mailing list
discuss@jquery.com
http://jquery.com/discuss/

Re: [jQuery] Stop using thickbox!

[Christopher Jordan]

Yay! It's out! Thanks Gilles. Great work. I can't wait to start using 
it. Now, we need a little repository for different themes. :o)


Chris

Dragan Krstic wrote:
But, I have a feelling that your plugin is very slow OTOH, 
semanticaly, you are right


2006/11/25, Webunity | Gilles van den Hoven <[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
>:


And use my window plugin :)

Why?

Thickbox was made for images
Window plugin was made for popups (dialogs)

Just my $0.02

-- Gilles

http://gilles.jquery.com/window/

___
jQuery mailing list
discuss@jquery.com 
http://jquery.com/discuss/




--
Dragan Krstić krdr
http://krdr.ebloggy.com/


___
jQuery mailing list
discuss@jquery.com
http://jquery.com/discuss/
  



No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.430 / Virus Database: 268.14.14/548 - Release Date: 11/23/2006 
3:22 PM
  
___
jQuery mailing list
discuss@jquery.com
http://jquery.com/discuss/

Re: [jQuery] Stop using thickbox!

[Roberto Ortelli]

uhm, all the samples seems not working on the last version of Safari ;)

2006/11/25, Matt Stith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> Theres many reasons why someone would want to use thickbox instead of your
> plugin.
>
> 1. Your plugin uses tables, noone likes tables.
> 2. Your plugin is slow compared to thickbox
> 3. Your plugin uses a bunch of things from the Interface library, thickbox
> only needs jquery.
> 4. Your plugin is a bit harder to use, with thickbox all you need to do is
> add a class to the element, and a bit of CSS styling.
> 5. Tables... ew.
>
>
>
>
> On 11/25/06, Webunity | Gilles van den Hoven <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > And use my window plugin :)
> >
> > Why?
> >
> > Thickbox was made for images
> > Window plugin was made for popups (dialogs)
> >
> > Just my $0.02
> >
> > -- Gilles
> >
> > http://gilles.jquery.com/window/
> >
> > ___
> > jQuery mailing list
> > discuss@jquery.com
> > http://jquery.com/discuss/
> >
>
>
> ___
> jQuery mailing list
> discuss@jquery.com
> http://jquery.com/discuss/
>
>
>


-- 
Roberto Ortelli
http://weblogger.ch

___
jQuery mailing list
discuss@jquery.com
http://jquery.com/discuss/

Re: [jQuery] Stop using thickbox!

[Christopher Jordan]

What's wrong with tables? Tables allow this box to be themeable, right? 
I agree that tables prolly shouldn't be used to layout an entire page, 
but this is a little popup (or a big one)... in either case, it just 
lays out the "frame" within which the content of the popup is held. I 
don't think they're too bad in this case.


Chris

2006/11/25, Matt Stith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
  

Theres many reasons why someone would want to use thickbox instead of your
plugin.

1. Your plugin uses tables, noone likes tables.
2. Your plugin is slow compared to thickbox
3. Your plugin uses a bunch of things from the Interface library, thickbox
only needs jquery.
4. Your plugin is a bit harder to use, with thickbox all you need to do is
add a class to the element, and a bit of CSS styling.
5. Tables... ew.




On 11/25/06, Webunity | Gilles van den Hoven <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


And use my window plugin :)

Why?

Thickbox was made for images
Window plugin was made for popups (dialogs)

Just my $0.02

-- Gilles

http://gilles.jquery.com/window/

___
jQuery mailing list
discuss@jquery.com
http://jquery.com/discuss/

  

___
jQuery mailing list
discuss@jquery.com
http://jquery.com/discuss/







  
___
jQuery mailing list
discuss@jquery.com
http://jquery.com/discuss/

Re: [jQuery] Stop using thickbox!

[Matt Stith]

Its very possible to make the box themeable with CSS.

On 11/25/06, Christopher Jordan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


 What's wrong with tables? Tables allow this box to be themeable, right? I
agree that tables prolly shouldn't be used to layout an entire page, but
this is a little popup (or a big one)... in either case, it just lays out
the "frame" within which the content of the popup is held. I don't think
they're too bad in this case.

Chris

2006/11/25, Matt Stith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

 Theres many reasons why someone would want to use thickbox instead of your
plugin.

1. Your plugin uses tables, noone likes tables.
2. Your plugin is slow compared to thickbox
3. Your plugin uses a bunch of things from the Interface library, thickbox
only needs jquery.
4. Your plugin is a bit harder to use, with thickbox all you need to do is
add a class to the element, and a bit of CSS styling.
5. Tables... ew.




On 11/25/06, Webunity | Gilles van den Hoven <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL 
PROTECTED]> wrote:

 And use my window plugin :)

Why?

Thickbox was made for images
Window plugin was made for popups (dialogs)

Just my $0.02

-- Gilles

http://gilles.jquery.com/window/

___
jQuery mailing list
[EMAIL PROTECTED]://jquery.com/discuss/

   ___
jQuery mailing list
[EMAIL PROTECTED]://jquery.com/discuss/




___
jQuery mailing list
discuss@jquery.com
http://jquery.com/discuss/



___
jQuery mailing list
discuss@jquery.com
http://jquery.com/discuss/

Re: [jQuery] Stop using thickbox!

[Christopher Jordan]

Okay. Well, Gilles seemed to think there was a problem with it. I still 
don't see the problem. Oh well. :o)


Chris

Matt Stith wrote:

Its very possible to make the box themeable with CSS.

On 11/25/06, *Christopher Jordan* <[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> wrote:


What's wrong with tables? Tables allow this box to be themeable,
right? I agree that tables prolly shouldn't be used to layout an
entire page, but this is a little popup (or a big one)... in
either case, it just lays out the "frame" within which the content
of the popup is held. I don't think they're too bad in this case.

Chris

2006/11/25, Matt Stith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> :
  

Theres many reasons why someone would want to use thickbox instead of your
plugin.

1. Your plugin uses tables, noone likes tables.
2. Your plugin is slow compared to thickbox
3. Your plugin uses a bunch of things from the Interface library, thickbox

only needs jquery.
4. Your plugin is a bit harder to use, with thickbox all you need to do is
add a class to the element, and a bit of CSS styling.
5. Tables... ew.




On 11/25/06, Webunity | Gilles van den Hoven 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>  wrote:


And use my window plugin :)

Why?

Thickbox was made for images
Window plugin was made for popups (dialogs)

Just my $0.02

-- Gilles


http://gilles.jquery.com/window/

___
jQuery mailing list
discuss@jquery.com 
http://jquery.com/discuss/

  

___
jQuery mailing list
discuss@jquery.com 
http://jquery.com/discuss/




  


___
jQuery mailing list
discuss@jquery.com 
http://jquery.com/discuss/





___
jQuery mailing list
discuss@jquery.com
http://jquery.com/discuss/
  



No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.430 / Virus Database: 268.14.14/548 - Release Date: 11/23/2006 
3:22 PM
  
___
jQuery mailing list
discuss@jquery.com
http://jquery.com/discuss/

Re: [jQuery] Stop using thickbox!

[Klaus Hartl]

Christopher Jordan schrieb:
> What's wrong with tables? Tables allow this box to be themeable, right? 

No, that's CSS (at least in 2006). Tables are for tabular data. I don't 
see any need for tables to let something be themeable.

Apart from that, you can make an element render like a table with 
display: table if you really need it.


-- Klaus

___
jQuery mailing list
discuss@jquery.com
http://jquery.com/discuss/

Re: [jQuery] Stop using thickbox!

[Christopher Jordan]

What about what Gilles says on his demo page:

"Layout of the dialogs To be honest one of the first things i started on 
was the dialog itself. I decided to go for CSS a table layout. What? 
Tables!? They are so... 1995! Yeah i know, but in this particular 
scenario tables where the only way to go. Off course you can do some 
tricky css styling, but you'll end up using "display: table-cell;" so 
why not start with tables to begin with.


*The dialogs are themable; This means you have:*

   * a top-left border, title part and a top-right border.
   * a left border, center part and a right border.
   * a bottom-left border, status part and a bottom-right border.


One of the things i really wanted was that the title and the status text 
where vertically aligned in the containing div. If you try to acchieve 
this with CSS, you'll have to use a lot of tricks to get everything 
right ("display: table-cell", conditional comments etc.). Because the 
table nativly supports vertical centering, and because of the typical 
"tic-tac-toe" layout of the dialog i was going to create, i started with 
one 3x3 table. But i soon found out that this wasn't going to work, if 
you considered scrollbars. Bladibladibla, lots of other things tried.. 
It works now, with 3 tables, one for the title bar, one for the content 
part and one for the statusbar. Believe me, i have tried and tried and 
tried even more to get this done in another way."


Would you have made a different choice? I'm interested in knowing. I'm 
not a CSS guru, and I'm still learning. Does Gilles have a valid 
argument, here?


Thanks,
Chris

Klaus Hartl wrote:

Christopher Jordan schrieb:
  
What's wrong with tables? Tables allow this box to be themeable, right? 



No, that's CSS (at least in 2006). Tables are for tabular data. I don't 
see any need for tables to let something be themeable.


Apart from that, you can make an element render like a table with 
display: table if you really need it.



-- Klaus

___
jQuery mailing list
discuss@jquery.com
http://jquery.com/discuss/



  
___
jQuery mailing list
discuss@jquery.com
http://jquery.com/discuss/

Re: [jQuery] Stop using thickbox!

[Klaus Hartl]

Christopher Jordan schrieb:
> What about what Gilles says on his demo page:
> 
> "Layout of the dialogs To be honest one of the first things i started on 
> was the dialog itself. I decided to go for CSS a table layout. What? 
> Tables!? They are so... 1995! Yeah i know, but in this particular 
> scenario tables where the only way to go. Off course you can do some 
> tricky css styling, but you'll end up using "display: table-cell;" so 
> why not start with tables to begin with.
> 
> *The dialogs are themable; This means you have:*
> 
> * a top-left border, title part and a top-right border.
> * a left border, center part and a right border.
> * a bottom-left border, status part and a bottom-right border.
> 
> 
> One of the things i really wanted was that the title and the status text 
> where vertically aligned in the containing div. If you try to acchieve 
> this with CSS, you'll have to use a lot of tricks to get everything 
> right ("display: table-cell", conditional comments etc.). Because the 
> table nativly supports vertical centering, and because of the typical 
> "tic-tac-toe" layout of the dialog i was going to create, i started with 
> one 3x3 table. But i soon found out that this wasn't going to work, if 
> you considered scrollbars. Bladibladibla, lots of other things tried.. 
> It works now, with 3 tables, one for the title bar, one for the content 
> part and one for the statusbar. Believe me, i have tried and tried and 
> tried even more to get this done in another way."
> 
> Would you have made a different choice? I'm interested in knowing. I'm 
> not a CSS guru, and I'm still learning. Does Gilles have a valid 
> argument, here?
> 
> Thanks,
> Chris

Hi Chris,

I agree that some things are harder to achieve with CSS, nevertheless I 
would have done it differently, with a pure CSS layout. It is doable. 
Unfortunatly I hadn't the time for that, when Gilles asked me for some 
help. But please don't blame me :-)

Table layout has another disadvantage apart from bloated HTML. Because 
you can't restyle tables in IE using these makes that a more inflexible 
solution than you think in the first place. Maybe that's not so 
important here, because there's only one cell used. If you used two 
cells for example for a two column layout, you are stuck with that in IE 
in a print style sheet for instance.


-- 
Klaus

___
jQuery mailing list
discuss@jquery.com
http://jquery.com/discuss/

Re: [jQuery] Stop using thickbox!

[Christopher Jordan]

I see. So is it like the lesser of two evils (because IE doesn't comply 
with all the standard CSS gizmos, like display: table-cell)? Either you 
use tables, or you have to use conditional comments, and some other 
CSS-for-IE hacks to make it work? Does that sound about right? And, is 
this really a reason not to use the plug-in? I've used Gilles submodal 
dialog code before and it's served me quite well, so I was excited to 
use something else he'd written.


Thanks,
Chris

Klaus Hartl wrote:

Christopher Jordan schrieb:
  

What about what Gilles says on his demo page:

"Layout of the dialogs To be honest one of the first things i started on 
was the dialog itself. I decided to go for CSS a table layout. What? 
Tables!? They are so... 1995! Yeah i know, but in this particular 
scenario tables where the only way to go. Off course you can do some 
tricky css styling, but you'll end up using "display: table-cell;" so 
why not start with tables to begin with.


*The dialogs are themable; This means you have:*

* a top-left border, title part and a top-right border.
* a left border, center part and a right border.
* a bottom-left border, status part and a bottom-right border.


One of the things i really wanted was that the title and the status text 
where vertically aligned in the containing div. If you try to acchieve 
this with CSS, you'll have to use a lot of tricks to get everything 
right ("display: table-cell", conditional comments etc.). Because the 
table nativly supports vertical centering, and because of the typical 
"tic-tac-toe" layout of the dialog i was going to create, i started with 
one 3x3 table. But i soon found out that this wasn't going to work, if 
you considered scrollbars. Bladibladibla, lots of other things tried.. 
It works now, with 3 tables, one for the title bar, one for the content 
part and one for the statusbar. Believe me, i have tried and tried and 
tried even more to get this done in another way."


Would you have made a different choice? I'm interested in knowing. I'm 
not a CSS guru, and I'm still learning. Does Gilles have a valid 
argument, here?


Thanks,
Chris



Hi Chris,

I agree that some things are harder to achieve with CSS, nevertheless I 
would have done it differently, with a pure CSS layout. It is doable. 
Unfortunatly I hadn't the time for that, when Gilles asked me for some 
help. But please don't blame me :-)


Table layout has another disadvantage apart from bloated HTML. Because 
you can't restyle tables in IE using these makes that a more inflexible 
solution than you think in the first place. Maybe that's not so 
important here, because there's only one cell used. If you used two 
cells for example for a two column layout, you are stuck with that in IE 
in a print style sheet for instance.



  
___
jQuery mailing list
discuss@jquery.com
http://jquery.com/discuss/

Re: [jQuery] Stop using thickbox!

[Gavin M. Roy]

Unfortunately both are unusable to a degree.  While yours uses table  
for layout, which I avoid like the plague and thickbox has hardcoded  
javascript values for getting at data, both of you suffer from  
requiring control of the body tag.  I often in design separate html  
and body from each other in CSS to achieve centering the body of  
content without additional divs.

While I agree thickbox is a bit too specific for picture content,  
there are other plugins which do the same.  What I'd prefer to see  
from plugin authors is more generic, generalized functionality that  
then can be combined.

For example a "disable" plugin which makes a div fill the window over  
all of the other content.  This could be used for Window and  
Thickbox.  Then a more xhtml/css centric window plugin, and on top of  
that, picture based lightbox/thickbox plugins.

And that was my $0.02.  Thanks for your contributions.

Gavin

On Nov 25, 2006, at 1:24 PM, Webunity | Gilles van den Hoven wrote:

> And use my window plugin :)
>
> Why?
>
> Thickbox was made for images
> Window plugin was made for popups (dialogs)
>
> Just my $0.02
>
> -- Gilles
>
> http://gilles.jquery.com/window/
>
> ___
> jQuery mailing list
> discuss@jquery.com
> http://jquery.com/discuss/


___
jQuery mailing list
discuss@jquery.com
http://jquery.com/discuss/

Re: [jQuery] Stop using thickbox!

[Su]

On 11/25/06, Webunity | Gilles van den Hoven <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


And use my window plugin :)



I realize there's a smiley on the end, but this really /is/ a joke, right?
Your plugin frankly isn't anywhere near ready for public use, as much as I
wish it were.
___
jQuery mailing list
discuss@jquery.com
http://jquery.com/discuss/

Re: [jQuery] Stop using thickbox!

[Rey Bango]

Gilles,

Congrats on getting this out my man. I know you've been working hard on 
trying to make the first cut simply awesome. Hopefully, you'll take some 
of the feedback given as a basis to further improve a great piece of work.

I'm looking forward to using it myself and while some hard core CSS fans 
might not use it because of tables, I certainly have no problems with 
them and will gladly leverage your work in my application.

I really appreciate your efforts.

Rey

Webunity | Gilles van den Hoven wrote:
> And use my window plugin :)
> 
> Why?
> 
> Thickbox was made for images
> Window plugin was made for popups (dialogs)
> 
> Just my $0.02
> 
> -- Gilles
> 
> http://gilles.jquery.com/window/
> 
> ___
> jQuery mailing list
> discuss@jquery.com
> http://jquery.com/discuss/
> 

___
jQuery mailing list
discuss@jquery.com
http://jquery.com/discuss/

Re: [jQuery] Stop using thickbox!

[Rey Bango]

Su, if you're going to make a comment like that, at least have the 
courtesy to:

1) Cite the reasons that you feel his work isn't ready
2) Offer up solutions or examples that could help him out in improving 
his work

Gilles is trying to provide functionality which really isn't available 
to the jQuery community and it would be better if everyone provided some 
sensible guidance instead of simply stating criticisms. Lets be helpful 
here guys.

Rey...

Su wrote:
> On 11/25/06, *Webunity | Gilles van den Hoven* <[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> > wrote:
> 
> And use my window plugin :)
> 
> 
> I realize there's a smiley on the end, but this really /is/ a joke, 
> right? Your plugin frankly isn't anywhere near ready for public use, as 
> much as I wish it were.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ___
> jQuery mailing list
> discuss@jquery.com
> http://jquery.com/discuss/

___
jQuery mailing list
discuss@jquery.com
http://jquery.com/discuss/

Re: [jQuery] Stop using thickbox!

[Christopher Jordan]

I agree. Thanks for saying that Rey.

Cheers,
Chris

Rey Bango wrote:
Su, if you're going to make a comment like that, at least have the 
courtesy to:


1) Cite the reasons that you feel his work isn't ready
2) Offer up solutions or examples that could help him out in improving 
his work


Gilles is trying to provide functionality which really isn't available 
to the jQuery community and it would be better if everyone provided some 
sensible guidance instead of simply stating criticisms. Lets be helpful 
here guys.


Rey...

Su wrote:
  
On 11/25/06, *Webunity | Gilles van den Hoven* <[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> wrote:


And use my window plugin :)


I realize there's a smiley on the end, but this really /is/ a joke, 
right? Your plugin frankly isn't anywhere near ready for public use, as 
much as I wish it were.





___
jQuery mailing list
discuss@jquery.com
http://jquery.com/discuss/



___
jQuery mailing list
discuss@jquery.com
http://jquery.com/discuss/



  
___
jQuery mailing list
discuss@jquery.com
http://jquery.com/discuss/

Re: [jQuery] Stop using thickbox!

[Klaus Hartl]

Rey Bango schrieb:
> some hard core CSS fans might not use it because of tables

To me, that has nothing to do with "fanism", it's more about using 
things the way they are meant to and also, if it weren't a javascript 
window, that is not much accessible anyway, about accessibility.


-- Klaus

___
jQuery mailing list
discuss@jquery.com
http://jquery.com/discuss/

Re: [jQuery] Stop using thickbox!

[Rob D]

Hay Gilles,

Thanks for your all your hard work.

I too really appreciate your efforts.

Kind regards

Rob

___
jQuery mailing list
discuss@jquery.com
http://jquery.com/discuss/

Re: [jQuery] Stop using thickbox!

[Glen Lipka]

In IE7, I get some JS errors.
First and Third sample: 1573: Invalid Argument
The second one works.

I like the interaction, maximize, close, etc.  Great work!  A CSS version
would rock, but I'm not complaining.  I will be looking for a place to use
this.

Glen

PS.  Quicken just relaucnhed their site and are using a version of sIFR, but
not the jQuery one I think.  Sapient acted like they invented it, is what I
heard.
___
jQuery mailing list
discuss@jquery.com
http://jquery.com/discuss/

Re: [jQuery] Stop using thickbox!

[Daimajin]

Gilles, your window plugin is a christmas gift in advance.  I'm not 
afraid of tables at all, even if I use them as little as I can, but 
sometimes they're very useful and help to avoid a lot of problems.  The 
only thing I wish your plugin had is a "show contents while dragging / 
resizing" option.  Besides that, it's simply wonderful.  Thank you!

Webunity | Gilles van den Hoven wrote:
> And use my window plugin :)
>
> Why?
>
> Thickbox was made for images
> Window plugin was made for popups (dialogs)
>
> Just my $0.02
>
> -- Gilles
>
> http://gilles.jquery.com/window/
>
> ___
> jQuery mailing list
> discuss@jquery.com
> http://jquery.com/discuss/
>
>   



___
jQuery mailing list
discuss@jquery.com
http://jquery.com/discuss/

Re: [jQuery] Stop using thickbox!

[David]

Gavin M. Roy schreef:
> Unfortunately both are unusable to a degree.  While yours uses table  
> for layout, which I avoid like the plague and thickbox has hardcoded  
> javascript values for getting at data, both of you suffer from  
> requiring control of the body tag.  I often in design separate html  
> and body from each other in CSS to achieve centering the body of  
> content without additional divs.
>
> While I agree thickbox is a bit too specific for picture content,  
> there are other plugins which do the same.  What I'd prefer to see  
> from plugin authors is more generic, generalized functionality that  
> then can be combined.
>
> For example a "disable" plugin which makes a div fill the window over  
> all of the other content.  This could be used for Window and  
> Thickbox.  Then a more xhtml/css centric window plugin, and on top of  
> that, picture based lightbox/thickbox plugins.
>
> And that was my $0.02.  Thanks for your contributions.
>
> Gavin
>   
I agree with Gavin on this. I think the popup plugins could be 
programmed like the interface plugin; a utility class and on top of that 
all other functionalities.  


David


___
jQuery mailing list
discuss@jquery.com
http://jquery.com/discuss/

Re: [jQuery] Stop using thickbox!

[Su]

I've already stated my appreciation for what the plugin will do(and does so
far) in the original announcement thread. I also offered money for it once
usable. I have a client project which would have been made more pleasant by
this. As it stands, though, I'm having to look at the Prototype alternative.
Besides knowing near-nothing about Prototype, I just prefer the way jQuery
works.

The bright red text at the top of the page itself points out the major
issue: Severe lack of browser testing. That, coupled with suggesting that
people start using it in favor of a stable, tested alternative while
misrepresenting that alternative's use(Thickbox is /not/ just for images) is
yes, a joke.

The issue here isn't me saying this is crap. I'm not, and it's not; I'm
rather amazed. But the plugin is not ready for public use, eg: replacing
Thickbox. Do you actually think the original message's suggestion is a valid
consideration? I'm perfectly willing to offer what I can in the way of
testing and markup, once some goals are stated. The scripting itself is
probably already well beyond my abilities.

If I've been late in providing notes, well, sorry, I have clients and can
probably devote even less time to this than Gilles himself, but here we go:

The plugin's first and third examples fail to launch(with errors) in my
copies of both IE6 and IE7.
The second does launch, but the text is unselectable. I doubt many people
will find that acceptable.

IE5.5(why not, since browser goals aren't stated), produces identical
behavior, though the button rollovers are a little off.

The examples fail altogether in Safari 2.0.4. Unacceptable.

While the comments about table use are arguably valid, they're largely
unimportant compared to the simple fact that the plugin just plain doesn't
work in too many cases.

It does seem a bit slow. I suppose it remains to be seen whether this is
just something that has to be dealt with, or if the code is unoptimized
given it's so early in development.

Why can the links not fall back to something if JS is turned off? Is that
actually a requirement(which would be unfortunate), or just something that
hasn't been accounted for(yet)?


On 11/25/06, Rey Bango <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


Su, if you're going to make a comment like that, at least have the
courtesy to:

1) Cite the reasons that you feel his work isn't ready
2) Offer up solutions or examples that could help him out in improving
his work

Gilles is trying to provide functionality which really isn't available
to the jQuery community and it would be better if everyone provided some
sensible guidance instead of simply stating criticisms. Lets be helpful
here guys.

Rey...

Su wrote:
> On 11/25/06, *Webunity | Gilles van den Hoven* <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > wrote:
>
> And use my window plugin :)
>
>
> I realize there's a smiley on the end, but this really /is/ a joke,
> right? Your plugin frankly isn't anywhere near ready for public use, as
> much as I wish it were.
>
>
> 
>
> ___
> jQuery mailing list
> discuss@jquery.com
> http://jquery.com/discuss/

___
jQuery mailing list
discuss@jquery.com
http://jquery.com/discuss/

___
jQuery mailing list
discuss@jquery.com
http://jquery.com/discuss/

Re: [jQuery] Stop using thickbox!

[Rey Bango]

Hi Klaus,

Since when did the use of tables become taboo or cause issues with 
accessibility?

I understand your rationale for using tables to display tabular data but 
prior to CSS, they also served as the main method for positioning all 
types of data and forms. And while I am making a shift to using CSS for 
that type of work, I still see tables as a viable alternative for data 
positioning.

Rey...

Klaus Hartl wrote:
> Rey Bango schrieb:
> 
>>some hard core CSS fans might not use it because of tables
> 
> 
> To me, that has nothing to do with "fanism", it's more about using 
> things the way they are meant to and also, if it weren't a javascript 
> window, that is not much accessible anyway, about accessibility.
> 
> 
> -- Klaus
> 
> ___
> jQuery mailing list
> discuss@jquery.com
> http://jquery.com/discuss/
> 

___
jQuery mailing list
discuss@jquery.com
http://jquery.com/discuss/

Re: [jQuery] Stop using thickbox!

[Rey Bango]

Hi Su,

Everything you mentioned in *this* email is exactly what you should've 
stated from the get-go. This is the type of feedback that will help 
Gilles better a plugin thats truly needed by this community.

Again, if you read my initial reply to you, you'll see that what I'm 
asking is that people offer up constructive criticsm in order to help 
guide the direction of the project. Do you really feel that saying "this 
really /is/ a joke, right?" is in anyway constructive criticsm?

In terms of being late to providing notes, we all have clients or work 
and its understandable if you can't immediately reply. Shoot man, you 
have to make a living and I understand that. But in the time it took you 
to post the original reply, you probably could've written most of the 
stuff the wrote in this email.

I definitely don't want you to feel like I'm singling you out. Its 
definitely not about you. I just want to ensure that Gilles gets some 
good feedback to help him improve his work and that he also gets kudos 
for something that many on here, including myself, haven't even 
attempted yet and/or may not have the skills to accomplish.

Rey...

Su wrote:
> I've already stated my appreciation for what the plugin will do(and does 
> so far) in the original announcement thread. I also offered money for it 
> once usable. I have a client project which would have been made more 
> pleasant by this. As it stands, though, I'm having to look at the 
> Prototype alternative. Besides knowing near-nothing about Prototype, I 
> just prefer the way jQuery works.
> 
> The bright red text at the top of the page itself points out the major 
> issue: Severe lack of browser testing. That, coupled with suggesting 
> that people start using it in favor of a stable, tested alternative 
> while misrepresenting that alternative's use(Thickbox is /not/ just for 
> images) is yes, a joke.

> The issue here isn't me saying this is crap. I'm not, and it's not; I'm 
> rather amazed. But the plugin is not ready for public use, eg: replacing 
> Thickbox. Do you actually think the original message's suggestion is a 
> valid consideration? I'm perfectly willing to offer what I can in the 
> way of testing and markup, once some goals are stated. The scripting 
> itself is probably already well beyond my abilities.
> 
> If I've been late in providing notes, well, sorry, I have clients and 
> can probably devote even less time to this than Gilles himself, but here 
> we go:
> 
> The plugin's first and third examples fail to launch(with errors) in my 
> copies of both IE6 and IE7.
> The second does launch, but the text is unselectable. I doubt many 
> people will find that acceptable.
> 
> IE5.5(why not, since browser goals aren't stated), produces identical 
> behavior, though the button rollovers are a little off.
> 
> The examples fail altogether in Safari 2.0.4. Unacceptable.
> 
> While the comments about table use are arguably valid, they're largely 
> unimportant compared to the simple fact that the plugin just plain 
> doesn't work in too many cases.
> 
> It does seem a bit slow. I suppose it remains to be seen whether this is 
> just something that has to be dealt with, or if the code is unoptimized 
> given it's so early in development.
> 
> Why can the links not fall back to something if JS is turned off? Is 
> that actually a requirement(which would be unfortunate), or just 
> something that hasn't been accounted for(yet)?
> 
> 
> On 11/25/06, *Rey Bango* <[EMAIL PROTECTED] > 
> wrote:
> 
> Su, if you're going to make a comment like that, at least have the
> courtesy to:
> 
> 1) Cite the reasons that you feel his work isn't ready
> 2) Offer up solutions or examples that could help him out in improving
> his work
> 
> Gilles is trying to provide functionality which really isn't available
> to the jQuery community and it would be better if everyone provided some
> sensible guidance instead of simply stating criticisms. Lets be helpful
> here guys.
> 
> Rey...
> 
> Su wrote:
>  > On 11/25/06, *Webunity | Gilles van den Hoven*
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
>  > >> wrote:
>  >
>  > And use my window plugin :)
>  >
>  >
>  > I realize there's a smiley on the end, but this really /is/ a joke,
>  > right? Your plugin frankly isn't anywhere near ready for public
> use, as
>  > much as I wish it were.
>  >
>  >
>  >
> 
>  >
>  > ___
>  > jQuery mailing list
>  > discuss@jquery.com 
>  > http://jquery.com/discuss/
> 
> ___
> jQuery mailing list
> discuss@jquery.com 
> http://jquery.com/discuss/
> 
> 
> 

Re: [jQuery] Stop using thickbox!

[Klaus Hartl]

Rey Bango schrieb:
> Hi Klaus,
> 
> Since when did the use of tables become taboo or cause issues with 
> accessibility?

Hi Rey,

since people have started to use screen readers. The contents of a table 
are read in the order they appear in the source, not as they appear on 
the screen. Have you cared about linearization when using a layout table?

See http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG10-HTML-TECHS/#tables-layout for example.

Also layout tables doesn't play nice on small screens.


> I understand your rationale for using tables to display tabular data but 
> prior to CSS, they also served as the main method for positioning all 
> types of data and forms.

Because they were used like that, shouldn't serve as justification to do 
so today.

Sure, I have used them too (last time 2002 by the way), but I think it's 
really, really time to move on. Browsers even start to support CSS 3 
columns...


-- Klaus

___
jQuery mailing list
discuss@jquery.com
http://jquery.com/discuss/

Re: [jQuery] Stop using thickbox!

[Rich Manalang]

If it was as fast and as cool looking as YUI's BasicDialog (
http://www.jackslocum.com/blog/2006/11/04/033-beta-2-basicdialog-yahooextview-and-more/),
I'm sure a lot of people would use it... you wouldn't need to convince
them.  But I think it needs work... good start though.

Rich

On 11/25/06, Webunity | Gilles van den Hoven <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


And use my window plugin :)

Why?

Thickbox was made for images
Window plugin was made for popups (dialogs)

Just my $0.02

-- Gilles

http://gilles.jquery.com/window/

___
jQuery mailing list
discuss@jquery.com
http://jquery.com/discuss/

___
jQuery mailing list
discuss@jquery.com
http://jquery.com/discuss/

Re: [jQuery] Stop using thickbox!

[jyl]

Gosh talk about slow to load... That yahoo thing took a while to load,
I'll say.

--Jacob

> If it was as fast and as cool looking as YUI's BasicDialog (
> http://www.jackslocum.com/blog/2006/11/04/033-beta-2-basicdialog-yahooextview-and-more/),
> I'm sure a lot of people would use it... you wouldn't need to convince
> them.  But I think it needs work... good start though.
>
> Rich
>
> On 11/25/06, Webunity | Gilles van den Hoven <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>> And use my window plugin :)
>>
>> Why?
>>
>> Thickbox was made for images
>> Window plugin was made for popups (dialogs)
>>
>> Just my $0.02
>>
>> -- Gilles
>>
>> http://gilles.jquery.com/window/
>>
>> ___
>> jQuery mailing list
>> discuss@jquery.com
>> http://jquery.com/discuss/
>>
> ___
> jQuery mailing list
> discuss@jquery.com
> http://jquery.com/discuss/
>



___
jQuery mailing list
discuss@jquery.com
http://jquery.com/discuss/

Re: [jQuery] Stop using thickbox!

[Rey Bango]

Hi Klaus,

> since people have started to use screen readers. The contents of a table 
> are read in the order they appear in the source, not as they appear on 
> the screen. Have you cared about linearization when using a layout table?
> 
> See http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG10-HTML-TECHS/#tables-layout for example.
> 
> Also layout tables doesn't play nice on small screens.

Thanks for the info. I will definitely look into this.

> Because they were used like that, shouldn't serve as justification to do 
> so today.
> 
> Sure, I have used them too (last time 2002 by the way), but I think it's 
> really, really time to move on. Browsers even start to support CSS 3 
> columns...

Apart from the accessibility issue which you mentioned (which I'm 
certainly taking seriously), the statement that "it's really, really 
time to move on" isn't justification for not using a tables. While CSS 
holds tremendous benefits and power, tables are still extremely useful 
and shouldn't be dismissed arbitrarily. As you know Klaus, I'm very open 
to your advice (as I've requested it offlist on a couple of occasions) 
but I'm the type of person that needs a good rationale for using or 
dropping something. Give me something to work with.

Rey...

___
jQuery mailing list
discuss@jquery.com
http://jquery.com/discuss/

Re: [jQuery] Stop using thickbox!

[Klaus Hartl]

>> Because they were used like that, shouldn't serve as justification to do 
>> so today.
>>
>> Sure, I have used them too (last time 2002 by the way), but I think it's 
>> really, really time to move on. Browsers even start to support CSS 3 
>> columns...
> 
> Apart from the accessibility issue which you mentioned (which I'm 
> certainly taking seriously), the statement that "it's really, really 
> time to move on" isn't justification for not using a tables.

Yes, this is just my personal opinion as being a web developer and it 
wasn't meant to be offensive.


> holds tremendous benefits and power, tables are still extremely useful 
> and shouldn't be dismissed arbitrarily. As you know Klaus, I'm very open 
> to your advice (as I've requested it offlist on a couple of occasions) 
> but I'm the type of person that needs a good rationale for using or 
> dropping something. Give me something to work with.

Unfortunately I can't imagine anything more important than 
accessibility. If I can't convince you (or anybody else) with that I'll 
certainly give up and won't bother you again with my opinions about that 
topic. It is offtopic here anyway.

Oned little addendum: I said somewhere else before in this thread, that 
if you need something to be rendered as a table - which I assume you 
meant with "extremely useful" - you can tell the browser to do so via 
CSS. Of course I'm not talking about rebuilding a table with divs, which 
also makes no sense and of course I'm only talking about tables for layout.


-- Klaus

___
jQuery mailing list
discuss@jquery.com
http://jquery.com/discuss/

Re: [jQuery] Stop using thickbox!

[Rey Bango]

Hi Klaus,

> Yes, this is just my personal opinion as being a web developer and it 
> wasn't meant to be offensive.
> Unfortunately I can't imagine anything more important than 
> accessibility. If I can't convince you (or anybody else) with that I'll 
> certainly give up and won't bother you again with my opinions about that 
> topic. It is offtopic here anyway.

Oh cmon man. I don't get offended that easily and your opinions are 
never a bother to me. Why do you think I bug you all of the time 
offlist?! :o)

What I'm trying to say is that if there are other compelling reasons to 
not use tables, then I want to know them. Web accessibility is a very 
important issue but there has to be more to your thinking than just web 
accessibility or "it's really, really time to move on". Again, give me 
something to work with.

Rey...

___
jQuery mailing list
discuss@jquery.com
http://jquery.com/discuss/

Re: [jQuery] Stop using thickbox!

[Giuliano Marcangelo]

On 26/11/06, Rey Bango <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:What I'm trying to say is
that if there are other compelling reasons to
not use tables, then I want to know them. Web accessibility is a very
important issue but there has to be more to your thinking than just web
accessibility or "it's really, really time to move on". Again, give me
something to work with.


Rey,
the html markup and css needed to render, "this" window.is far less
using a CSS layoutIMHO...
therefore  in this particular case, not only are accessibility issues
addressed but bandwidth is saved.

CSS:LAYOUT FOR WINDOW

 
   
 



CONTENT (IFRAME)..GOES HERE



 
   
   
 


TABLE LAYOUT FOR WINDOW:


   
   
   




   
    CONTENT (IFRAME)..GOES
HERE..replaces  
   




   
   
   




When it comes to  laying out an entire page, using a CSS layout ( which has
a steep learning  curve, in order to address browser differences), produces
a layout that is displayed as it is read by the browser, whereas if you use
nested tables to produce a complex layout, then all the table structures
must be written to the browser, and the browser then calculates, the sizes
of the tables and tablecells,  and then displays themso the
actual markup is more lightweight and it renders quicker in the
browser.added to this.you can, using the same mark up,
but different CSS, display an entirely different page (take a look at
www.csszengarden.com)

so briefly to sum up..

mark up  is more lightweight,
page displays quicker,
mark up is vastly more flexible/versatile/reusable.


Regards

Giuliano Marcangelo






___
jQuery mailing list
discuss@jquery.com
http://jquery.com/discuss/

Re: [jQuery] Stop using thickbox!

[Rey Bango]

Thanks Giuliano. Thats the additional type of info that I was looking for!

Rey.//

Giuliano Marcangelo wrote:
> On 26/11/06, *Rey Bango* <[EMAIL PROTECTED] > 
> wrote:What I'm trying to say is that if there are other compelling 
> reasons to
> not use tables, then I want to know them. Web accessibility is a very
> important issue but there has to be more to your thinking than just web
> accessibility or "it's really, really time to move on". Again, give me
> something to work with.
> 
> 
> Rey,
> the html markup and css needed to render, "this" window.is far less 
> using a CSS layoutIMHO...
> therefore  in this particular case, not only are accessibility issues 
> addressed but bandwidth is saved.
> 
> CSS:LAYOUT FOR WINDOW
> 
>   
> 
>   
> 
> 
> 
> CONTENT (IFRAME)..GOES HERE
> 
> 
> 
>   
> 
> 
>   
> 
> 
> TABLE LAYOUT FOR WINDOW:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  CONTENT (IFRAME)..GOES 
> HERE..replaces  
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When it comes to  laying out an entire page, using a CSS layout ( which 
> has a steep learning  curve, in order to address browser differences), 
> produces a layout that is displayed as it is read by the browser, 
> whereas if you use nested tables to produce a complex layout, then all 
> the table structures must be written to the browser, and the browser 
> then calculates, the sizes of the tables and tablecells,  and then 
> displays themso the actual markup is more lightweight and it 
> renders quicker in the browser.added to this.you 
> can, using the same mark up, but different CSS, display an entirely 
> different page (take a look at www.csszengarden.com 
> )
> 
> so briefly to sum up..
> 
> mark up  is more lightweight,
> page displays quicker,
> mark up is vastly more flexible/versatile/reusable.
> 
> 
> Regards
> 
> Giuliano Marcangelo
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ___
> jQuery mailing list
> discuss@jquery.com
> http://jquery.com/discuss/

___
jQuery mailing list
discuss@jquery.com
http://jquery.com/discuss/

Re: [jQuery] Stop using thickbox!

[Klaus Hartl]

Christopher Jordan schrieb:
> I see. So is it like the lesser of two evils (because IE doesn't comply 
> with all the standard CSS gizmos, like display: table-cell)? Either you 
> use tables, or you have to use conditional comments, and some other 
> CSS-for-IE hacks to make it work? Does that sound about right?

Hi Chris,

that's right. But: the only reason I can think of to use tables, is, 
that you can easily have content vertically aligned in the middle. That 
is what CSS honestly lacks.

This can also be achievend with a little dynamic property for IE, so 
that's one line for a hack versus improved accessibility plus increased 
flexibility/maintainability plus 50% less markup. That sounds like a 
good trade-off, doesn't it?


> And, is 
> this really a reason not to use the plug-in? I've used Gilles submodal 
> dialog code before and it's served me quite well, so I was excited to 
> use something else he'd written.

I've never stated I wouldn't use the plug-in. Once I'm going to use it, 
I'll CSSify it ;-)


-- Klaus

___
jQuery mailing list
discuss@jquery.com
http://jquery.com/discuss/

Re: [jQuery] Stop using thickbox!

[gilles]

Finally some reactions.

I did not mean to say "My plugin is better" or something like that, just
wanted to get your attention to my plugin, because, like said, i can't
perfect it without you guys.

Some points mentioned by you guys:
* I'll try go get a CSS layout online as soon as possible.
* Some people who are complaining that it relies on interface. I had to,
if i wanted this funcionality myself the code got twice as big at least!
So that is the why, i hope you can understand. Something called
reusability :)
* Please define "slow" i know it is slow, but this is only the draggable
part in IE6, i don't know what is wrong there, since i use the bgiframe
hack which everybody uses.
* Glen, i don't have IE7 yet, but i'll try to fix this as soon as i can.

> I realize there's a smiley on the end, but this really /is/ a joke, right?
> Your plugin frankly isn't anywhere near ready for public use, as much as I
> wish it were.

Su, like said, don't give such a comment without giving some solutions or
"problem areas" on my test enviroment, windows with IE6 and FF 1.5.0.8 it
works fine. I can't fix what i don't see as broken.

p.s. who's Quicken?

-- Gilles


___
jQuery mailing list
discuss@jquery.com
http://jquery.com/discuss/

Re: [jQuery] Stop using thickbox!

[Christopher Jordan]

Thanks for the response, Klaus. :o)

Klaus Hartl wrote:

Hi Chris,

that's right. But: the only reason I can think of to use tables, is, 
that you can easily have content vertically aligned in the middle. That 
is what CSS honestly lacks.


This can also be achievend with a little dynamic property for IE, so 
that's one line for a hack versus improved accessibility plus increased 
flexibility/maintainability plus 50% less markup. That sounds like a 
good trade-off, doesn't it?


  

so what's the hack? don't leave me hangin', brotha! :o)
  
And, is 
this really a reason not to use the plug-in? I've used Gilles submodal 
dialog code before and it's served me quite well, so I was excited to 
use something else he'd written.



I've never stated I wouldn't use the plug-in. Once I'm going to use it, 
I'll CSSify it ;-)


  

I never meant to imply that you did. I just wanted you opinion.

Cheers,
Chris
___
jQuery mailing list
discuss@jquery.com
http://jquery.com/discuss/

Re: [jQuery] Stop using thickbox!

[Klaus Hartl]

Christopher Jordan schrieb:
> Thanks for the response, Klaus. :o)
> 
> Klaus Hartl wrote:
>> Hi Chris,
>>
>> that's right. But: the only reason I can think of to use tables, is, 
>> that you can easily have content vertically aligned in the middle. That 
>> is what CSS honestly lacks.
>>
>> This can also be achievend with a little dynamic property for IE, so 
>> that's one line for a hack versus improved accessibility plus increased 
>> flexibility/maintainability plus 50% less markup. That sounds like a 
>> good trade-off, doesn't it?
>>
>>   
> so what's the hack? don't leave me hangin', brotha! :o)


Hi Christopher, wasn't sure if you are interested... here's a demo:
http://stilbuero.de/demo/vertical_centering/

One more thing to know: With JavaScript disabled in IE it will not be 
centered. I think that's acceptable, because it degrades well.


-- Klaus

___
jQuery mailing list
discuss@jquery.com
http://jquery.com/discuss/

Re: [jQuery] Stop using thickbox!

[Karl Swedberg]

On Nov 27, 2006, at 8:00 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


p.s. who's Quicken?


Gilles,

Quicken is the #1 personal finance software in the world in terms of  
both sales and all-out excellence.

For more:
http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,1895,1996812,00.asp

Karl
_
Karl Swedberg
www.englishrules.com
www.learningjquery.com


___
jQuery mailing list
discuss@jquery.com
http://jquery.com/discuss/

Re: [jQuery] Stop using thickbox!

[Klaus Hartl]

Giuliano Marcangelo schrieb:
> so briefly to sum up..
> 
> mark up  is more lightweight,
> page displays quicker,
> mark up is vastly more flexible/versatile/reusable.

Thanks Giuliano for the assistance :-)

I had mentioned "bloated HTML" and inflexibility ("a more inflexible
solution than you think in the first place") somewhat earlier in the 
thread in reply to Christopher and thought this fact is quite clear anyway.

I think your example could use even less markup:


   
 
   


could probalbly be replaced with:





Thanks again :-)


-- Klaus

___
jQuery mailing list
discuss@jquery.com
http://jquery.com/discuss/

Re: [jQuery] Stop using thickbox!

[Theo Welch]

Here's another (probably older) approach to vertical centering with CSS I've
been using for a while. 

http://www.wpdfd.com/editorial/thebox/deadcentre3.html

This one doesn't need any proprietary IE code to get the centering to work
in IE, but it does require a bit of extra markup as well as using 'absolute'
positioning which can be a hassle in some situations.

I haven't tested the technique Klaus linked to, but I think I actually I
like that one better for most situations
(http://stilbuero.de/demo/vertical_centering/).  

Thanks for sharing, Klaus! :)

-THEO-



-Original Message-
From: Klaus Hartl [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Monday, November 27, 2006 10:44 AM
To: jQuery Discussion.
Subject: Re: [jQuery] Stop using thickbox!

Christopher Jordan schrieb:
> Thanks for the response, Klaus. :o)
> 
> Klaus Hartl wrote:
>> Hi Chris,
>>
>> that's right. But: the only reason I can think of to use tables, is, 
>> that you can easily have content vertically aligned in the middle. That 
>> is what CSS honestly lacks.
>>
>> This can also be achievend with a little dynamic property for IE, so 
>> that's one line for a hack versus improved accessibility plus increased 
>> flexibility/maintainability plus 50% less markup. That sounds like a 
>> good trade-off, doesn't it?
>>
>>   
> so what's the hack? don't leave me hangin', brotha! :o)


Hi Christopher, wasn't sure if you are interested... here's a demo:
http://stilbuero.de/demo/vertical_centering/

One more thing to know: With JavaScript disabled in IE it will not be 
centered. I think that's acceptable, because it degrades well.


-- Klaus




___
jQuery mailing list
discuss@jquery.com
http://jquery.com/discuss/

Re: [jQuery] Stop using thickbox!

[Jörn Zaefferer]

Theo Welch schrieb:
> Here's another (probably older) approach to vertical centering with CSS I've
> been using for a while. 
>
> http://www.wpdfd.com/editorial/thebox/deadcentre3.html
>
> This one doesn't need any proprietary IE code to get the centering to work
> in IE, but it does require a bit of extra markup as well as using 'absolute'
> positioning which can be a hassle in some situations.
>   
But that wouldn't stop it from scrolling out of the viewport, would it?

Actually the "best" approach for fixed positioning seems to a very 
different approach: Prevent the entire page from scrolling and let only 
the overflowing parts scroll. That way you can stick to absolute 
positioning and everything is fine. Not quite applicable to most 
layouts, but still in intersting option when starting from scratch.

-- 
Jörn Zaefferer

http://bassistance.de


___
jQuery mailing list
discuss@jquery.com
http://jquery.com/discuss/

Re: [jQuery] Stop using thickbox!

[jyl]

The example on wpdfd.com is also dead slow on my IE6 when resizing
horizontally. It performs well when resizing vertically. Hmm.

--Jacob

> Theo Welch schrieb:
>> Here's another (probably older) approach to vertical centering with CSS
>> I've
>> been using for a while.
>>
>> http://www.wpdfd.com/editorial/thebox/deadcentre3.html
>>
>> This one doesn't need any proprietary IE code to get the centering to
>> work
>> in IE, but it does require a bit of extra markup as well as using
>> 'absolute'
>> positioning which can be a hassle in some situations.
>>
> But that wouldn't stop it from scrolling out of the viewport, would it?
>
> Actually the "best" approach for fixed positioning seems to a very
> different approach: Prevent the entire page from scrolling and let only
> the overflowing parts scroll. That way you can stick to absolute
> positioning and everything is fine. Not quite applicable to most
> layouts, but still in intersting option when starting from scratch.
>
> --
> Jörn Zaefferer
>
> http://bassistance.de
>
>
> ___
> jQuery mailing list
> discuss@jquery.com
> http://jquery.com/discuss/
>



___
jQuery mailing list
discuss@jquery.com
http://jquery.com/discuss/

Re: [jQuery] Stop using thickbox!

[Brandon Aaron]

On 11/27/06, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> * Please define "slow" i know it is slow, but this is only the draggable
> part in IE6, i don't know what is wrong there, since i use the bgiframe
> hack which everybody uses.

This would be due to the expressions used by the bgiframe plugin.
Those expressions are evaluated many, many times over again by the IE
parser. In a typical use-case for the bgiframe plugin that wouldn't
matter. However, for this plugin I would suggest a custom solution.
One where you manually resize the iframe when needed. If I can find
some time I'll add it to SVN.
--
Brandon Aaron

___
jQuery mailing list
discuss@jquery.com
http://jquery.com/discuss/

Re: [jQuery] Stop using thickbox!

[Dan Atkinson]

Going by the title, I fear that this is more wishful thinking and showmanship
than anything else.

This may sound quite arrogant, but then, so is your summary of thickbox.

I'm afraid that the complete lack of graceful degradation means that this is
one plugin I simply cannot use.

I do like the styling though, and the use of tables is forgiveable, even if
the purists would insist that tables are for data only.

Best of luck with the next version!

If you do release another version, I would maybe suggest a little less
arrogance on your part, which will likely ensure a much better reception,
than the less-than-cordial response which was received by this. Alas, I
think this would also attract fewer responses from the community! :-)


Webunity | Gilles van den Hoven wrote:
> 
> And use my window plugin :)
> 
> Why?
> 
> Thickbox was made for images
> Window plugin was made for popups (dialogs)
> 
> Just my $0.02
> 
> -- Gilles
> 
> http://gilles.jquery.com/window/
> 
> ___
> jQuery mailing list
> discuss@jquery.com
> http://jquery.com/discuss/
> 
> 

-- 
View this message in context: 
http://www.nabble.com/Stop-using-thickbox%21-tf2704990.html#a7586419
Sent from the JQuery mailing list archive at Nabble.com.


___
jQuery mailing list
discuss@jquery.com
http://jquery.com/discuss/

Re: [jQuery] Stop using thickbox!

[Christopher Jordan]

Dan Atkinson wrote:
> If you do release another version, I would maybe suggest a little less
> arrogance on your part, ...
Eh, I think Gilles was just having fun and not trying to be arrogant. 
For cryin' out-loud, that's what the damned emoticons were created for, 
in the first place.
I think those folks who considered his post arrogant just missed the 
smiley at the end of the sentence. Maybe he could have included a J/K or 
something to better indicate it. I dunno, I just hate seeing the guy 
dragged over the coals because he was trying to poke a little fun.  :o(

Of course, I guess I could be wrong, but I don't think I am. Anyway, 
that's a bit OT, I suppose. :o)

Cheers,
Chris

___
jQuery mailing list
discuss@jquery.com
http://jquery.com/discuss/

Re: [jQuery] Stop using thickbox!

[Rey Bango]

> Eh, I think Gilles was just having fun and not trying to be arrogant. 

Thats the way I interpreted it (just having fun).

Rey...

___
jQuery mailing list
discuss@jquery.com
http://jquery.com/discuss/

Re: [jQuery] Stop using thickbox!

[Webunity | Gilles van den Hoven]

Dan Atkinson wrote:
> Going by the title, I fear that this is more wishful thinking and showmanship
> than anything else.
>   
Hi Dan,

Correct. I wasn't trying to be arrogant, on the contrary, i just wanted 
to "poke" around to see how people reacted on my plugin. I've tried this 
before with the email is sent titled "new plugin: Window", but i only 
received about 3 reactions on that, and i felt disapointed since i've 
put so much work in it, perfecting it (in my eyes). The mail with this 
title received some critisism, but also gave me some new ideas to work 
with, something i ran out of and that is all i ever wanted.

To be honest, the last time i looked at thickbox it was only capable of 
showing 1 image, and not (like it is now) capable of doing much more. :s 
(sigh!)

On your comment on degration, I am not sure my window plugin needs to 
degrade, after all, you have to open it from Javascript and it is a 
javascript build and controlled box... That's just my opinion, since i 
don't see how i could degrade this... It is either javascript on or off 
with this plugin.

I'm hoping to get the community's thoughts on how i can improve this 
dialog, so people can implement this on their own CMS/website whatever 
use they feel for it. I think the reason the dragging is kinda slow, is 
the entire discussion going on about the best way to create the 
draggables for interface, so i hope that get's solved pretty quick.

Since all i wanted to create (show off) with this plugin that it is 
possible to create a OS like dialog very easy (without those nasty popup 
blockers), maybe it's better to find a way to combine both plugins??

Anyway, i hope i didn't sound to arrogant, i was also a bit pissed on 
ajaxian.com constantly bragging on about ruby, prototype, scriptaculous, 
moo, YUI and forgetting all about jquery

Hoping on a response,

-- Gilles

___
jQuery mailing list
discuss@jquery.com
http://jquery.com/discuss/

Re: [jQuery] Stop using thickbox!

[Mike Alsup]

> On your comment on degration, I am not sure my window plugin needs to
> degrade, after all, you have to open it from Javascript and it is a
> javascript build and controlled box... That's just my opinion, since i
> don't see how i could degrade this... It is either javascript on or off
> with this plugin.

Gilles,

The way to make it degrade is to build it off the markup like many of
the other plugins.  They take existing markup and transform it into
something else.  I don't see why your window plugin couldn't do the
same thing.  Just a thought.

Mike

___
jQuery mailing list
discuss@jquery.com
http://jquery.com/discuss/