Re: [IxDA Discuss] Bowman leaves Google

[Daniel Szuc]

Hi:

Re-reading Doug Bowman's post you can really feel his frustration. 

Reading between the lines I hear:

* A culture that was born in Engineering (and still very much i that
space - which is what makes Google great)
* A culture that is looking at ways to embrace Design and User
Research (and not purely relying on data and statistics to back up
everything)
* Understanding when to rely on data for large design decisions and
when to go with best practice and the expertise of the Design Team
* Looking at how to promote consistency across many product sets
* When to hold onto what consumers understand as the "Google Brand"
and when to start to try something new (but not for the sake of a
re-design)
* When to rely on Data to drive new products (would love to dig into
some of those Search logs :)
* Getting your top Designers working on harder, challenging and
strategic problems
* Giving your top Design Team the political power they need to
experiment and make change happen

Some interesting complimentary pieces - 

94% of Facebook users hate new design - 
http://www.theage.com.au/news/technology/web/94-of-facebook-users-hate-new-design/2009/03/20/1237055063673.html

Google's Irene Au: On Design Challenges -
http://www.businessweek.com/innovate/content/mar2009/id20090318_786470.htm?__vid__=Y29sbGVjdGlvblR5cGU9YWxpYXMBY29sbGVjdGlvbklEPXNodWFubG8Bc291cmNlPXkuZGVsaWNpb3VzAWNsYXNzPWJvb2ttYXJrAXR5cGU9Ym9va21hcmsBc3VpZD04ZjVhYzU1ODA1YjcyOTkxNGU5MGFiOTAwZjRjMjMzNQ--

Some of this also comes down to the question of "who owns/drives the
User Experience in an organzation?" and then "How do you get
everyone (product teams) onto the same page?" - have seen these same
patterns repeat for the last 10-15 years.

Data is superb, when you understand what you need the data for, how
it will be interpreted and what it really means for your products.

rgds,
Dan



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Re: [IxDA Discuss] Bowman leaves Google

[Jarod Tang]

Hi Dave,

On Sun, Mar 22, 2009 at 2:38 AM, David Malouf  wrote:

> Jarod, I don't like it. I find it to be ..
> 1) reminiscent of MS
> 2) too brash and distracting
>
Yes, I found few likes the current Google icon near around. But many people
like the one one, that would be the interesting phenomenon to figure out.


>
> More importantly it has in no way shape or form improved my
> relationship with Google (or diminished it).
>

> I think people have missed my point.
> I think design is not for or against data, but design should always
> be for imbuing human expressionism beyond the measurable. A designer
> of worth, merit, etc. should always be encouraged to express
> themselves in any way that does not break Raskin's 1st law of
> interaction design (don't fuck w/ the content, purpose or utility of
> what you are designing [paraphrasing]).
>
> When I look at a site like google, I see a souless design. Now, I use
> google over Yahoo & Adobe for most things but that has nothing to do
> with aesthetics. But Google would never take a risk like adding a
> "Liam" (mail spelled backwards) character to their software. They
> would never use the iconographic vivid imagery of a Buzzword
> interface (Adobe). Because of this, these applications at least
> attempt to have soul--connectedness to human expression to the world
> around them.
>

A question here, since it's a phenomenon that many people prefer Google, are
there (or we call it like this?) some kind of essential aesthetic
interaction there beyond the surface? And even better, as you urged, could
we make it deeper and wider in the essential way?

Cheers,
-- Jarod

-- 
http://designforuse.blogspot.com/

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Re: [IxDA Discuss] Bowman leaves Google

[David Malouf]

Jarod, I don't like it. I find it to be ..
1) reminiscent of MS
2) too brash and distracting

More importantly it has in no way shape or form improved my
relationship with Google (or diminished it).

I think people have missed my point.
I think design is not for or against data, but design should always
be for imbuing human expressionism beyond the measurable. A designer
of worth, merit, etc. should always be encouraged to express
themselves in any way that does not break Raskin's 1st law of
interaction design (don't fuck w/ the content, purpose or utility of
what you are designing [paraphrasing]). 

When I look at a site like google, I see a souless design. Now, I use
google over Yahoo & Adobe for most things but that has nothing to do
with aesthetics. But Google would never take a risk like adding a
"Liam" (mail spelled backwards) character to their software. They
would never use the iconographic vivid imagery of a Buzzword
interface (Adobe). Because of this, these applications at least
attempt to have soul--connectedness to human expression to the world
around them.

I think people need to stop lauding Google as a design success story.
I think it hurts us b/c it is clear that it is an engineering success
story. Does that mean that engineering is better than design. I think
looking at Apple, answers that question. It doesn't. There are S
many ingredients that go into success and we would be fooling
ourselve as designers or engineers to think that any one of us
controls all of them.

BTW, the one place funny enough that Google DOES allow for a taste of
humanity is on their most precious search home page (Google.com).
Their use of holiday and historic event treatments is beautiful!!! 

However, I can count on 1 hand how many times I go to Google.com
(home page) any more. Its in the chrome of my browser or in my
browser's home page, etc. 

Soul!!! Time to swing the pedullum back from the austere periods
towards the more expressionist. I think we can do that and still
maintain simplicity, clarity, usability, findability, and overall
effectiveness. In fact, I'd like to challenge us to do it!

-- dave



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Re: [IxDA Discuss] Bowman leaves Google

[Larry Tesler]

Yes, over-reliance on data-driven incremental design (DDID) is ill- 
advised.


- Customers who use more than one of a company's products tend to be  
the most valuable customers in the long run. DDID usually optimizes  
one product at a time. The resulting inconsistencies may make each  
product a bit more profitable but can make it less likely for a heavy  
user of one to become a casual user of another.


- DDID is an effective way to climb a little higher on a profit hill.  
It will never get you off the current hill onto a taller mountain.


- Changing shades of blue and line widths can nudge a product higher  
on its current hill. But an organization that makes choices based  
solely on the basis of performance data won't learn why a certain  
shade or width works better, and is unlikely to apply the lesson to  
the next project. Revenue is foregone, costs mount and precious  
resources are tied up while each new product is gradually optimized.


But many managers love DDID. It a systematic, replicable, and  
inherently measurable. Delight in the experience and passion for the  
product line are much harder to measure. The non-mathematical way that  
designers go about evoking such emotions isn't something that the  
staffing and training departments can reliably replicate.


These days, great success usually emerges from a smart combination of  
analytical thinking and design thinking, a combination that requires  
mutual respect and cooperation as equals among the various  
practitioners.


Larry Tesler

When a company is filled with engineers, it turns to engineering to  
solve problems. Reduce each decision to a simple logic problem.  
Remove all subjectivity and just look at the data. Data in your  
favor? Ok, launch it. Data shows negative effects? Back to the  
drawing board. And that data eventually becomes a crutch for every  
decision, paralyzing the company and preventing it from making any  
daring design decisions.


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Re: [IxDA Discuss] Bowman leaves Google

[Jarod Tang]

One side question, what do you think about google's new icon compare to old
one?

Cheers,
-- Jarod

On Sat, Mar 21, 2009 at 5:15 AM, Andrei Herasimchuk <
aherasimc...@involutionstudios.com> wrote:

> Posted without comment, even though I very much feel Google just lost an
> amazing talent for no good reason:
> http://stopdesign.com/archive/2009/03/20/goodbye-google.html
>
> --
> Andrei Herasimchuk
>
> Chief Design Officer, Involution Studios
> innovating the digital world
>
> e. and...@involutionstudios.com
> c. +1 408 306 6422
>
> 
> Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)!
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>



-- 
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Re: [IxDA Discuss] Berkeley\'s MIMS vs Carnegie Mellon\'s MDes in IxD

[j. eric townsend]

The first question is, "What do you want to do after you graduate?".  If 
you have a good idea as to the answer, compare what people from these 
programs end up doing.


I have a lot of respect for the students in the IxD program at CMU and 
have learned a *lot* taking classes with them.  However, I didn't apply 
to the IxD program because I'm much more interested in 3D/researchy 
things than 2D/applications and getting a job as an IxD type at A4/g5/M$.


CMU is also big on interdisciplinary work, so while you're doing the IxD 
program, you have the opportunity to take classes in other disciplines. 
 Your options range from things like "Introductory Robotics" taught by 
a leader in the field to one-off classes like "Interactive Technology 
and Live Performance" () taught by Golan 
Levin and Matt Gray.


Someone from Bezerkeley should chime in as to why their program roxxors.

--jet

--
J. Eric "jet" Townsend, CMU Master of Tangible Interaction Design '09

design: www.allartburns.org; hacking: www.flatline.net;  HF: KG6ZVQ
PGP: 0xD0D8C2E8 AC9B 0A23 C61A 1B4A 27C5 F799 A681 3C11 D0D8 C2E8

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Re: [IxDA Discuss] Designers, meet the Drupal community!

[Philipp Schroeder]

> I actually didn't want to get involve in this discussion, because it
> is almost like Apple vs PC, but if I don't ask or discuss clarity will
> never be reached, and some people actually think that WordPress is
> just a blog and can't be a CMS.

I hope this thread doesn't derail into a discussion about whether tool y
is better than tool z.

In my original post, I was trying to put forward that I see a huge
opportunity for collaboration and cross-fertilization between the ixda
community and the drupal community. I feel both communities can profit
from each other's *expertise*.

> [...] Why is it then that the "experts"
> fear WordPress? Why do the "experts" choose systems that are known for
> their higher learning curves and shun the systems like WordPress that
> has excelled in user experience?

Well, in an ideal world, software would be so adaptable to one's needs
and personal experience level, that we wouldn't need distinct 'software
for experts'. I feel that Alan Cooper's suggestion to optimize for the
"perpetual intermediates", rather than for the beginners, is good advice
and something I feel Drupal is aiming for.

> Does empowering the user, scare the experts because they might no
> longer be needed or feel less of an expert among their peers?

That is an interesting question. I am curious, where do you see evidence
of such behaviour?

Consider for example that Dries Buytaert - original creator and project
lead of Drupal - has been evangelizing about empowering the user by
"eliminating the middlemen" for years:
http://buytaert.net/drupal-and-eliminating-middlemen

> [...] But if you are evangelists for a better user
> experience, shouldn't you be supporting the products which have a
> better user experience?

Building software with great user experience "for the masses" is hard.
That's why I point out that there is a great opportunity here ripe for
the taking - for the ixda and drupal communities to actively collaborate
on the ixda networking platform project.

The ixda site building team will benefit from drupal's developer
community. Drupal will benefit from expert ixd advice that can be
incorporated into the core framework. And most importantly, the members
of this community, who notably will be the "end users" of the resulting
platform, are participating in the process. Hey, I am talking about
user-centered, participatory design here. :-)

> The funny thing is that Drupal & Joomla can improve their user
> experience with leaps, if only they will only choose to stop using
> engineering and programming terms and start talking the user's
> language.

It's interesting that you mention language here.

In fact, the terminology used in the system was what originally led me
to Drupal and its community - namely Drupal's "taxonomy" module. As far
as I am concerned, Drupal introduced a paradigm shift on how to organise
and structure content. Drupal's abstract way of storing all content
types as 'nodes' and then allowing all kinds of navigation -
content-linking, filtering, searching, ... where hierarchical
organisation is only one option, rather than the dominant one.

Drupal was and is developed by a bunch of forward looking technologists,
right there on the "web frontier". IxD'ers, come and play! :-)


-- 


:::.

Philipp Schroeder
DIN15 / Information Architecture & Interaction Design
www.din15.org, phil...@din15.org

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Re: [IxDA Discuss] Berkeley\'s MIMS vs Carnegie Mellon\'s MDes in IxD

[Jaanus Kase]

George %u2014 yes, the HCII program is intense, running for 12 months
in a row. I had also been out of school for many years, but the HCII
is very project-based, and having a professional background helps.
This is a professional, not an academic program, so you don't need
to walk in with a lot of fresh academic/research background.

The intensity of the program may be off-putting to some, but I liked
it. Plus 12 months instead of 2 years was an advantage, not a
downside, for me.

I did not take many design classes outside of the core mandatory
ones, but many of my classmates did. From what I hear, they worked
together with the design students including IxD in groups and it
worked out great for them.


. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
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Re: [IxDA Discuss] Designers, meet the Drupal community!

[Angel Marquez]

You can put your drupal T-shirt on and jump off a cliff and I won't try and
stop you.

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Re: [IxDA Discuss] Designers, meet the Drupal community!

[Brian Henkel]

Just so I understand, who is the %u2018user%u2019 when you say
WordPress provides a better user experience? If you%u2019re talking
about the end-user who doesn%u2019t know (or care) what CMS was used
to build the site, then I%u2019d like to learn more about how exactly
WordPress provides a better user experience?

I%u2019ll presume you are referring to the user experience of a
person or team building a website. Then, yes, without a doubt,
WordPress provides unmatched ease of use to the *non-developer*. But
if you need/desire customization, most developers will say they feel
their hands are tied. In this sense, it is not a better user
experience.

In terms of features, one can add plugin after plugin to WordPress to
inch it closer to Drupal%u2019s core feature set. User management is a
strength of Drupal (I can%u2019t comment on the value of the user
management WordPress plugins mentioned). Views and the creation of
Content Types are also very powerful for custom sites. The famous
Yahoo Design Pattern Library was built on Drupal using these features
( http://tinyurl.com/cdxdma ), saying %u201CUltimately, we chose
Drupal because of its breadth of capabilities, powerful taxonomy, and
extensibility.%u201D When we discuss %u201Cfeatures%u201D, I suspect
we first think of blogs, forums, polls, etc. %u2013 but out-of-the
box capabilities such as Content Types, Views, Taxomony, etc. are
core Drupal features to support tailored designs.

If we were to do an assessment of each tool%u2019s Administrative
areas, Drupal is a better provider of tools to manage large-scale,
multi-authored sites. Core User Management, Roles, Permissions,
Actions, Logging and Alerts, System Performance, Load Optimization,
etc. support site maintenance and performance.

Drupal is a content management framework that provides the basis for
building, extending, and maintaining large, multi-authored sites. It
boils down to choosing the right tool for the job. If you need a
%u201Cstandard%u201D site (blogs, forums, polls, profiles), WordPress
is probably your answer. If your design requires customization, Drupal
is more flexible; if you need to support a large, multi-authored
community, Drupal provides better site maintenance and performance.

I'm not married to either Drupal or WordPress. I just know each has
its strengths.



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Re: [IxDA Discuss] Bowman leaves Google

[Andrei Herasimchuk]

On Mar 21, 2009, at 12:15 PM, William Brall wrote:


Collecting Data is a big part of IxD, and like any field with a
science background, that data need not be collected a second time for
the same problem.


Science background?

--
Andrei Herasimchuk

Chief Design Officer, Involution Studios
innovating the digital world

e. and...@involutionstudios.com
c. +1 408 306 6422


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Re: [IxDA Discuss] Berkeley\'s MIMS vs Carnegie Mellon\'s MDes in IxD

[george . hayes]

Januus, I was actually looking at the HCII program as well. It looks
great, but the time period of one year for the degree seemed pretty
intense, especially after not being in school for a couple of years.
What did you think of this, and how did you feel the IxD program
interacted with HCII. I was hoping to be able to take those classes
while pursuing the MDes.


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Re: [IxDA Discuss] Bowman leaves Google

[mark schraad]

I find some issue with this argument. Re-applying solutions to new  
problems is not ideal. It goes to one of my pet peeves... applying  
solutions from books, that may or may not have a similar context or  
problem. I see MBA's and business owners reading books like 'Good to  
Great' and then enthusiastically applying said recipe to their  
company. The same goes with using tertiary research... proceed with  
caution and even skepticism.


I am one of the first to talk about wasting time with eye tracking.  
The Cog-science folks have already gathered most of the important  
data and knowledge from those kinds of studies. But applying  
learnings from instance specific research to similar but not exactly  
the same context is dangerous.


Mark



On Mar 21, 2009, at 12:15 PM, William Brall wrote:


Collecting Data is a big part of IxD, and like any field with a
science background, that data need not be collected a second time for
the same problem.

Do biologists retest basic chemistry in order to make a biological
experiment? Certainly not.

What google is doing, and why that is bad, is they have taken to
retesting. They have developed a culture where they don't
extrapolate from prior testing, like we IxDs do, even when it was not
our test.



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Re: [IxDA Discuss] Bowman leaves Google

[Peter Van Dijck]

>
> A wise professor once told me that having research is much better than not,
> but in the end… once you have absorbed and evaluated all of the data, you
> still have to make a decision.


Of course, I don't think anyone would argue that you place the
decision-making with the machines? We've all seen that movie :)

Peter

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Re: [IxDA Discuss] Bowman leaves Google

[Peter Van Dijck]

>
>
> The reason the 41 blue test is bad, is any one of us would have told
> google the right choice for FREE!


That's a false argument, because you're saying that designers should then be
trusted to know what they know and know what they don't know.

Peter

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Re: [IxDA Discuss] Designers, meet the Drupal community!

[Angel Marquez]

Drupal being more complex and technical is a fallacy.
I've used drupal, joomla, mambo, crown peak, trinidad, proprietary systems a
slew of others and when I finally got around to checking out wordpress I was
pleasantly surprised.

Even if wordpress doesn't do exactly what you want it to do out of the box
the experts should be able to pull it together and make it happen within a
reasonable amount of time.

I always wondered why some big dev teams or communities just don't develop
their own tool/system. Why don't you guys do your things and conduct your
millions of tests, make some decisions, make some wireframes, prototypes and
wow the world with that skill everyone should buy into? A team of designers
agreeing to use drupal is kind of strange.

I think the communication of creating a simple internal tool is probably the
best opportunity to get everyone in sync before you offer your whacky
service to the public.

Just my 2 cents.

I'll still read the emails no matter what you use. Please don't take this
away (bad move). It's discouraging a specialized team/community that boast
about optimal research before design would just jump on the bandwagon and
say drupal, we are using drupal. Drupal is the first search result that
comes up when you google CMS, it must be the best...

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Re: [IxDA Discuss] Bowman leaves Google

[mark schraad]

Data driven business decisions (and the offshoot being discussed here  
- design decisions) is a significant movement… much of it being  
fostered from engineers and statisticians. The notion that we, the  
humans, do not need to know the why, but only what he data tells us  
to do is at the core of its controversy. There have been many  
articles published on this recently and even a few in the popular  
press (Time and Business Week as I recall).


There are a couple of issues here. The first, is the notion that  
human understanding of the ‘why’ in insignificant. I find this  
troubling. More and more I run into folks who want a decision that is  
not encumbered by ‘mistake prone’ humans. This is silly, and frankly,  
it is a weak ass approach to decision making. It is unrealistic and  
devoid of an important part of decision-making… judgment. Statistics  
do in fact lie. Following this purely data driven approach,  
executives often become the victim of type 3 errors (sometimes called  
a type 0 error) in which the wrong questions was asked.


A wise professor once told me that having research is much better  
than not, but in the end… once you have absorbed and evaluated all of  
the data, you still have to make a decision. The same is true whether  
you are using qualitative research, quantitative research, accounting  
numbers or other business metrics… it must be interpreted, weighed  
and assessed for significance… then you make a decision. The data  
should never render the decision for you.


Further… making the choice between selections A, B, and C is the easy  
step (as pointed out by Tichy and Bennis in their recent book  
‘Judgment’). You still have to evangelize, execute and follow through  
with the decision. That is hardly do-able if you have let the data  
take the first step. Not knowing the why is crippling in the ‘whole’  
of the decision process.


Mark

 


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Re: [IxDA Discuss] Bowman leaves Google

[William Brall]

I think ALL of you are really arguing the same side.

Collecting Data is a big part of IxD, and like any field with a
science background, that data need not be collected a second time for
the same problem.

Do biologists retest basic chemistry in order to make a biological
experiment? Certainly not.

What google is doing, and why that is bad, is they have taken to
retesting. They have developed a culture where they don't
extrapolate from prior testing, like we IxDs do, even when it was not
our test.

The 41 blues issue is a valid one. I'm positive that testing these
41 blues will garner results. Those results, if not spread over at
least 1 million people, will not carry any value. But they will be
results. If the sample is large enough, they may find that indeed the
darker blue (if the background is light) will be the better choice.

However, any one of us could have pointed at the blue that would do
best because we have learned the value of contrast.

Given the backgrounds google normally picks. It is obvious that the
one with the greatest contrast (normally the darkest one) will test
better. Because the few people in the sample that have trouble with
low contrast will find the higher contrast helpful, and it won't
annoy anyone.

The reason the 41 blue test is bad, is any one of us would have told
google the right choice for FREE!

Because we are informed by other, older, tests. And a healthy spoon
full of our own observations.

We are all arguing the same things. Testing is good, when it isn't
moronic. Using what we have learned already is the design of IxD and
is only good if informed by good data. Which we mostly are. Not
perfect, but test data isn't perfect either, and we are a hell of a
lot cheaper than testing everything must be.


. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
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Re: [IxDA Discuss] Bowman leaves Google

[dave malouf]

Hi Peter,
My answer about "listening to data" is "it depends".
If the data is, your revenue has fallen X% and the data can SHOW that
a design decision led to that fall (as opposed to other contexts such
as economy, politics, quality of goods being sold, etc.) then of
course I'll listen to it. 

If the data is a "usability test" of users in a lab, it really
depends on how, what and why it is being tested and what the test may
or may not prove and are we talking about "better" by .1% or are we
talking "better" by say 75%? And what was the quality of the A/B
results themselves. Did one lead to direct failure and other 100%
success? What if A had a higher efficiency factor, but led to less
enjoyment? and B had lower efficiency, but led to greater enjoyment?
Both led to some change in revenue generating activity but
non-correlative. Blah blah blah. This can go on for generations.

What I know for sure, Is that I don't trust the lab. Never have, and
probably never will. Results from logs, sales, observations of use in
the field. These I believe in deeply.

Now, your question was asking, what is design and what isn't. And
that is a different question. My point was one of defining a
continuum and setting up an absolute, so to suggest that listening or
not listening to data is or isn't design is absurd. What it is, is a
continuum and usually a balance leads to best practice (not "best
practices").

-- dave


. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
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Re: [IxDA Discuss] The true focus of interaction design

[William Brall]

Since what I was saying was, in fact, intended to be silly. I had
hoped that was obvious... I'll only defend "The Science of Art"

Think of that phrase to mean the science behind how art does what art
does. Art has always been something magical. I mean magical in the old
sense. There are practices and methods and forms which if you follow
will produce results. Somewhat like if you have a slab of iron and
you pray over it while heating it, then hammer paper prayers into it
as you fold it, to imbue the iron with the magic of those prayers.

The end result will be steel. And in certain places in Japan this
process is still carried out for ceremonial swords.

That is what art has been. But we are now able to separate the
superstition of art from what really matters.

What I meant, and it was really the only serious point I was trying
to make, was that IxD is the space between a need, and the tool that
meets that need. A space that is traditionally held by someone who
takes a superstitious path to design.

Be it software design, our field's foundation, or some of the many
fields we've branched out to handle as well.

We apply the scientific method to what has normally been the whim of
artists. Even if that art were programmer art.

Especially on the web, where most of our growth has been. And where
the design of pages has historically been the exclusive domain of
graphic designers, at least of the AAA professional level.

I flowered it all up with other metaphors and such. I was trying to
get the gist of us across without going into great detail.

Because, as in this email, a short description won't do a better job
of explaining our gist, so why not attempt to inject something more in
it to at least make it enjoyable to read?


. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
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Re: [IxDA Discuss] Bowman leaves Google

[Peter Van Dijck]

We agree then. My point is not that we don't need design. My point is that
design should be humble and listen to data.
Peter

On Sat, Mar 21, 2009 at 6:18 PM, AJKock  wrote:

> @ Peter Can data-driven design predict future design? No, it can only
> measure today. Design is more than just testing for today; it also
> envisions tomorrow.
> 
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Re: [IxDA Discuss] Bowman leaves Google

[Andy Edmonds]

Web search in particular is one of the most utilitarian instances of
software these days.  Having spent 2.5 years doing search quality / UX
assessment at MSFT, I'm a firm believer that every change in search
should be tested vigorously and that a design team that isn't
enthusiastic about testing isn't worth having.

That said, my opinion for other software products is less strict.  The
critical flaw, in any situation, is putting design modifications to
test without attempting to learn from the test to improve future
design.  Playing roulette with a testing protocol every time you do
something new is a horrible way to do business, even if you have the
user traffic to detect miniscule differences.

In many, if not all, test protocols, the design of the test should
help the team better understand the users, tasks, etc. so that future
design decisions can be made more effectively.

AndyEd... http://surfmind.com

On Sat, Mar 21, 2009 at 3:08 AM, Peter Van Dijck
 wrote:
> If the 2 versus 4 pixels thing is on a crucial page like the Google search
> results or list of adsense ads, surely it's a MUST to test it and let the
> data speak? No? or would you redesign the ads, see revenue go down and not
> change your mind?
> Peter


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Re: [IxDA Discuss] Bowman leaves Google

[Katie Albers]

Let's back up a step here...why does stuff have to be measurable? Is  
it no longer possible to assess without numbers? On the whole (and  
yes, I acknowledge that there are significant exceptions) the SMART  
methodology did design no service. There are things we know or notice  
that are simply ineluctable. To say something is "better" is an  
explicitly non-measurable statement. There are decisions we make that  
are in spite of data to the contrary...and they result in something  
"better".


Let's take a really obvious example: Every test I've ever seen shows  
that people are measurably faster using a mouse-based interface than a  
command-based interface. At an extremely high level of expertise both  
in typing and in the app, people do, in fact, become faster using the  
commands... but "membership" in this group is much smaller than the  
number of people who believe they are in the group. Thus, we have  
people using commands when the menus would be faster for them, and  
swearing by their mothers and their puppies that the commands are  
faster. You can demonstrate to them that they are slower this way and  
they will simply not believe you (although some of the reasons" people  
come up with are really entertaining). Take away their commands, and  
you will get a lot of people dropping out. If one of the data points  
you're supposed to be designing to is speed of use, do you take away  
the commands anyway? (Mind you, I don't think anyone in this field  
will probably acknowledge being one of those who benefits from menus,  
so it's almost impossible to get them to consider the possibility of  
removing the commands anyway).


How do you reconcile data and design (in its broadest sense) here? Why  
do you need to? Why do we have this aversion to simply admitting that  
people have non-measurable, but critically important, preferences and  
we need to acknowledge those and incorporate them into design?  
(Obviously, in the case of commands, we do just that, but often that's  
more a matter of default than decision.)


Katie Albers
Founder & Principal Consultant
FirstThought
User Experience Strategy & Project Management
310 356 7550
ka...@firstthought.com





On Mar 21, 2009, at 3:16 AM, Peter Van Dijck wrote:

I think that's wrong. Why can't I continue to measure and change  
stuff?

In any case, data driven design doesn't mean there's no place for the
designer. Who else will come up with stuff that we can then measure?

Peter

On Sat, Mar 21, 2009 at 11:12 AM, AJKock  wrote:


The problem with pure data-driven design (testing for 4 vs 2 pixels)
is that they might be missing the point that the result is only valid
for that moment. Humans are not happy with things staying the same  
(it
might be part of the our survival mechanism to keep changing),  
because

one year we might like curvy cars and the next year we like boxed
cars. Design from Dave's p.o.v. acknowledges the potential for change
in a design and data-driven design doesn't.

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Re: [IxDA Discuss] Bowman leaves Google

[AJKock]

@ Peter Can data-driven design predict future design? No, it can only
measure today. Design is more than just testing for today; it also
envisions tomorrow.

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Re: [IxDA Discuss] Designers, meet the Drupal community!

[AJKock]

@ Peter Wordpress 2.7 Roles:
http://agapetry.net/news/introducing-role-scoper/
http://wordpress.org/extend/plugins/adminimize/
http://wordpress.org/extend/plugins/user-access-manager/
http://wordpress.org/extend/plugins/connections/

WordPress 2.6
http://www.im-web-gefunden.de/wordpress-plugins/role-manager/

@ Brian More powerful? Powerful for what?

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[IxDA Discuss] Strucktable Multitouch

[Pauric]

A nice demo of various multitouch interaction concepts

Video: http://vimeo.com/3601352

/pauric

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Re: [IxDA Discuss] The Save Icon "rut"

[Todd Diemer]

Jeff G. and Jerome R. have a good point here about a continuous save,
snapshot save, or checkpoints.

Could we remove the save button completely if these checkpoints were
constantly saved ala Gmail or other apps that save drafts on a
regular basis. The user would then only be required to set a period
between which they want saves to occur.

To revert back to older versions the user would view an interactive
timeline showing previews of their different With the amount of
computing power and disk space these days the limitation here seems
to be user culture and interface design.

Going back to the original question though with our mental model how
it is, how about replacing the icon of a disk with an icon of a icon
of a box/briefcase/shelf that has paper files going into it? When
items have been successfully saved the object will close. The idea
being that instead of saving it to a disk you are in essence, putting
the object away in a safe place.


. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
Posted from the new ixda.org
http://www.ixda.org/discuss?post=40180



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Re: [IxDA Discuss] Designers, meet the Drupal community!

[Brian Henkel]

James, I agree with your points on WordPress. WordPress, as you say,
is much easier on many fronts. But, it is not nearly as powerful as
Drupal. I think that's a notion most will agree with.


. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
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Re: [IxDA Discuss] Bowman leaves Google

[Peter Van Dijck]

I think that's wrong. Why can't I continue to measure and change stuff?
In any case, data driven design doesn't mean there's no place for the
designer. Who else will come up with stuff that we can then measure?

Peter

On Sat, Mar 21, 2009 at 11:12 AM, AJKock  wrote:

> The problem with pure data-driven design (testing for 4 vs 2 pixels)
> is that they might be missing the point that the result is only valid
> for that moment. Humans are not happy with things staying the same (it
> might be part of the our survival mechanism to keep changing), because
> one year we might like curvy cars and the next year we like boxed
> cars. Design from Dave's p.o.v. acknowledges the potential for change
> in a design and data-driven design doesn't.
> 
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Re: [IxDA Discuss] Designers, meet the Drupal community!

[Peter Van Dijck]

So your point is that Wordpress has a better user experience, so we should
use it, even though the other products have more features?
Sounds fair enough, if WP actually does what we want it to do.

Peter

On Sat, Mar 21, 2009 at 10:59 AM, AJKock  wrote:

> This is critique in general about people who prefers to choose the
> complex path, in fearing of being devalued.
>
> I actually didn't want to get involve in this discussion, because it
> is almost like Apple vs PC, but if I don't ask or discuss clarity will
> never be reached, and some people actually think that WordPress is
> just a blog and can't be a CMS.
>
> I have been on this group I think for over a year now and I thought
> that the aim of this group, of like minded people, was to create
> better user experiences. We want to create products that users can
> embrace and not be frustrated by. Why is it then that the "experts"
> fear WordPress? Why do the "experts" choose systems that are known for
> their higher learning curves and shun the systems like WordPress that
> has excelled in user experience? WordPress embodies everything we want
> in our digital life; a product that are easy to learn and use (than
> any other similar system currently on the market).
>
> Does empowering the user, scare the experts because they might no
> longer be needed or feel less of an expert among their peers?
> Why do you want to do the more complex methods if easier ones are
> available?
> I hear things like Drupal or Joomla can DO so much more? Really? Are
> you working on possibility or practicality? How many users do you
> think WordPress MU handles?
> Are we being hypocrites (especially as IxDA Members) by choosing more
> complex systems?
>
> I am not criticising Drupal or anyone specifically here. I am sure the
> people at Drupal are great and passionate about the product they
> create and so are the Joomla supporters; and their products can do
> amazing things. But if you are evangelists for a better user
> experience, shouldn't you be supporting the products which have a
> better user experience?
>
> The funny thing is that Drupal & Joomla can improve their user
> experience with leaps, if only they will only choose to stop using
> engineering and programming terms and start talking the user's
> language.
> 
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Re: [IxDA Discuss] Bowman leaves Google

[Peter Van Dijck]

If the 2 versus 4 pixels thing is on a crucial page like the Google search
results or list of adsense ads, surely it's a MUST to test it and let the
data speak? No? or would you redesign the ads, see revenue go down and not
change your mind?
Peter

On Sat, Mar 21, 2009 at 7:57 AM, Dan Saffer  wrote:

>
> On Mar 20, 2009, at 3:21 PM, Andrei Herasimchuk wrote:
>
>
>> On Mar 20, 2009, at 3:07 PM, Dan Saffer wrote:
>>
>>  Seems like reason enough for me.
>>>
>>
>> So you think that testing 41 shades of blue or arguing about borders being
>> 2 to 4 pixels to the point of being asked to prove 2 is better than 4 is a
>> good thing? That all design decisions should be driven by Google's
>> insistence on data driven design by committee?
>>
>
> I think we're in violent agreement. I assuredly do NOT think is this a good
> thing.
>
> (Which is not to say you can't do some interesting stuff with data and
> design and testing.)
>
> Dan
>
>
>
> 
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Re: [IxDA Discuss] Tools for animating the user experience

[Peter Van Dijck]

I'm doing screencasts of wireframes these days.
http://poorbuthappy.com/ease/archives/2009/03/21/4499/screencasts-of-clickable-wireframes

I'll post an example soon.

Peter

On Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 4:28 PM, Auke van Scheltinga wrote:

> Ah my extra 2 gigs memory module was broken. It's working like a
> charm now! :) Experimenting with the architecture of my flash file
> right now. Thinking of using the main timeline as a place for
> application entry points (like, new user, already registred user,
> stranger, coming from iphone etc..). And then create movieclips based
> on the user tasks you're designing for. Place every step needed to
> accomplish a task on the timeline inside one container movie for that
> specific task. This way i'll have a constant reminder with everybody
> looking over my shoulder what we're builiding again. I can even
> place little persona badges in my workspace! :) Just thinking out
> loud...
>
>
> . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
> Posted from the new ixda.org
> http://www.ixda.org/discuss?post=39886
>
>
> 
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Re: [IxDA Discuss] Bowman leaves Google

[Peter Van Dijck]

As Dave M said earier - "if you want to research and derive inspiration from
> research, or research and live by the data, that is a choice, but I would
> argue that one is design and the other is not."
>

So if the data tells you something and you ignore it, is that "design"?

Peter




>
>
>
> Harry
>
> --
> http://www.90percentofeverything.com
> 
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Re: [IxDA Discuss] Designers, meet the Drupal community!

[Peter Van Dijck]

Does Wordpress have groups and flexible roles? I'm not sure, just asking :)
Peter

On Sat, Mar 21, 2009 at 11:29 AM, AJ Kock  wrote:

> Please, I would seriously be enlightened if you could tell me what those
> features are that you can find in Drupal but not WordPress.
>



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Re: [IxDA Discuss] New Features for Clinical Research Website

[Aalap Doshi]

Thanks Matthew.. That was pretty much what I was thinking about doing
too. Good to know someone who has done something similar at some
point.

Thanks,


. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
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Re: [IxDA Discuss] The true focus of interaction design

[James Haliburton]

William, I think there might be a good reason why interaction design
has not been described as the science of art before. 

Where design and art often share the same dimension and often overlap
(Dunn & Raby are a good example), they most certainly are not same
thing. And the science of interaction design certain does not produce
the same results as purely artistic efforts.

IxD has philosophical and psychological elements, but it cannot
constitute such a grandiose ontology in the way that you have
written.

I believe we would be best to avoid descriptions of the practice and
research which include adjectives like alchemy, unholy union, or
psychological movement.. at least so nobody mistakes this forum for a
cult.



. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
Posted from the new ixda.org
http://www.ixda.org/discuss?post=40209



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Re: [IxDA Discuss] Idea Generation Activities

[Chauncey Wilson]

Some other ideas you can try are:

1.  metaphor brainstorming
2.  brainwriting
3.  braindrawing
4.  future workshops
5.  Persona/perspective based brainstorming (similar in concept to six
thinking hats technique)
6.  Unfocus groups
7.  the crawford slip method
8.  Freelisting
9. The card exchange technique (Geschka, 1983)
10. The Nominal group technique
11. Buzz sessions


Chauncey


On Sat, Mar 21, 2009 at 4:08 AM, Cone  wrote:
> I think De Bono's 'Six Thinking Hats' technique works great, whether in a
> group or alone. The six different colored 'hats' represent a different ways
> of thinking.
> The six thinking hats cover positive, negative, neutral, creative emotional
> and organizationally inclined ways of thinking.
>
> It's like saying you would want people of these six 'hats' to be a part of
> your team because you look at problems and think about solutions in a way
> that views them from all angles, so to speak.
> -Abhay
>
> --
> Cone Trees- User Research & Design
> http://www.conetrees.com
> http://www.twitter.com/conetrees
> http://www.theuxbookmark.com
> http://uxbookclub.org/doku.php?id=new_delhi
>
> On Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 12:52 AM, Alan Cox  wrote:
>
>> I'm thinking about leading some discussions to help my team and
>> company generate ideas about what sort of experience we want our
>> users to have when they interact with a new version of our software.
>>
>> Have you ever participated in, or led, an activity that you found
>> really helpful in generating these ideas?  I anticipate a group of
>> 5-7 people working together for about 1 week to do this; I've got a
>> number of ideas already, but I am searching for more.
>>
>> My ideas, still in an toddler stage, are:
>>
>> 1) Come up with two companies, similar to each other but different
>> from us.  What attributes do they have in common, and how are they
>> different?
>>
>> 2) "Promise, Symbol, Proof" - For ten (or so) companies, come up
>> with what they're promising their customers, the mark that
>> symbolizes the promise, and the proof that shows they're meeting
>> their promise.
>>
>> 3) "What are we? and the rule of opposites" - Come up with
>> attributes that describe our product and our users' experience with
>> it.  What are the opposites of those attributes, and what would
>> things be like if we switched to the opposite?
>>
>> 4) "Weird What-ifs" - Fill in the following sentence "What if we
>> were __?" and then answer it.  For instance, "What if we
>> were a religion?
>>
>> I would love to hear what other types of activities you have found
>> successful.
>>
>> (By the way, I haven't called this "brainstorming" because I
>> don't want to limit the responses.)
>>
>>
>> 
>> Reply to this thread at ixda.org
>> http://www.ixda.org/discuss?post=40167
>>
>> 
>> Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)!
>> To post to this list ... disc...@ixda.org
>> Unsubscribe  http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe
>> List Guidelines  http://www.ixda.org/guidelines
>> List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
>>
> 
> Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)!
> To post to this list ... disc...@ixda.org
> Unsubscribe  http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe
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> List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
>

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Re: [IxDA Discuss] Designers, meet the Drupal community!

[AJ Kock]

Please, I would seriously be enlightened if you could tell me what those
features are that you can find in Drupal but not WordPress.

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Re: [IxDA Discuss] Bowman leaves Google

[AJKock]

The problem with pure data-driven design (testing for 4 vs 2 pixels)
is that they might be missing the point that the result is only valid
for that moment. Humans are not happy with things staying the same (it
might be part of the our survival mechanism to keep changing), because
one year we might like curvy cars and the next year we like boxed
cars. Design from Dave's p.o.v. acknowledges the potential for change
in a design and data-driven design doesn't.

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Re: [IxDA Discuss] Designers, meet the Drupal community!

[AJKock]

This is critique in general about people who prefers to choose the
complex path, in fearing of being devalued.

I actually didn't want to get involve in this discussion, because it
is almost like Apple vs PC, but if I don't ask or discuss clarity will
never be reached, and some people actually think that WordPress is
just a blog and can't be a CMS.

I have been on this group I think for over a year now and I thought
that the aim of this group, of like minded people, was to create
better user experiences. We want to create products that users can
embrace and not be frustrated by. Why is it then that the "experts"
fear WordPress? Why do the "experts" choose systems that are known for
their higher learning curves and shun the systems like WordPress that
has excelled in user experience? WordPress embodies everything we want
in our digital life; a product that are easy to learn and use (than
any other similar system currently on the market).

Does empowering the user, scare the experts because they might no
longer be needed or feel less of an expert among their peers?
Why do you want to do the more complex methods if easier ones are
available?
I hear things like Drupal or Joomla can DO so much more? Really? Are
you working on possibility or practicality? How many users do you
think WordPress MU handles?
Are we being hypocrites (especially as IxDA Members) by choosing more
complex systems?

I am not criticising Drupal or anyone specifically here. I am sure the
people at Drupal are great and passionate about the product they
create and so are the Joomla supporters; and their products can do
amazing things. But if you are evangelists for a better user
experience, shouldn't you be supporting the products which have a
better user experience?

The funny thing is that Drupal & Joomla can improve their user
experience with leaps, if only they will only choose to stop using
engineering and programming terms and start talking the user's
language.

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Re: [IxDA Discuss] Idea Generation Activities

[Cone]

I think De Bono's 'Six Thinking Hats' technique works great, whether in a
group or alone. The six different colored 'hats' represent a different ways
of thinking.
The six thinking hats cover positive, negative, neutral, creative emotional
and organizationally inclined ways of thinking.

It's like saying you would want people of these six 'hats' to be a part of
your team because you look at problems and think about solutions in a way
that views them from all angles, so to speak.
-Abhay

-- 
Cone Trees- User Research & Design
http://www.conetrees.com
http://www.twitter.com/conetrees
http://www.theuxbookmark.com
http://uxbookclub.org/doku.php?id=new_delhi

On Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 12:52 AM, Alan Cox  wrote:

> I'm thinking about leading some discussions to help my team and
> company generate ideas about what sort of experience we want our
> users to have when they interact with a new version of our software.
>
> Have you ever participated in, or led, an activity that you found
> really helpful in generating these ideas?  I anticipate a group of
> 5-7 people working together for about 1 week to do this; I've got a
> number of ideas already, but I am searching for more.
>
> My ideas, still in an toddler stage, are:
>
> 1) Come up with two companies, similar to each other but different
> from us.  What attributes do they have in common, and how are they
> different?
>
> 2) "Promise, Symbol, Proof" - For ten (or so) companies, come up
> with what they're promising their customers, the mark that
> symbolizes the promise, and the proof that shows they're meeting
> their promise.
>
> 3) "What are we? and the rule of opposites" - Come up with
> attributes that describe our product and our users' experience with
> it.  What are the opposites of those attributes, and what would
> things be like if we switched to the opposite?
>
> 4) "Weird What-ifs" - Fill in the following sentence "What if we
> were __?" and then answer it.  For instance, "What if we
> were a religion?
>
> I would love to hear what other types of activities you have found
> successful.
>
> (By the way, I haven't called this "brainstorming" because I
> don't want to limit the responses.)
>
>
> 
> Reply to this thread at ixda.org
> http://www.ixda.org/discuss?post=40167
>
> 
> Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)!
> To post to this list ... disc...@ixda.org
> Unsubscribe  http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe
> List Guidelines  http://www.ixda.org/guidelines
> List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
>

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Re: [IxDA Discuss] Bowman leaves Google

[Harry]

Data-driven design, though, is not entirely a bad thing, is it?

The whole web 2 approach of getting a basic webapp out there in beta, then
optimising and extending it based on user behaviour / feedback - that's data
driven post launch. Even running tests on paper prototypes, is, in some
respects, data driven, but qualitative and messy.

It seems there's a continuum from anal retentive "Every pixel must be
quantitatively tested for impact on our KPIs" to creative "use qual and
quant data as appropriate to steer our creative design process".

As Dave M said earier - "if you want to research and derive inspiration from
research, or research and live by the data, that is a choice, but I would
argue that one is design and the other is not."


Harry

--
http://www.90percentofeverything.com

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