Re: [slim] Is Slimserver sustainable as Open Source?
Going back to the first message in this thread (and others similar to it), I think the root issue underlying whatever frustration users/customers are feeling is not really open vs. closed source. Rather, it generally comes down to performance (i.e., perceived lack of) and/or bugs (usually real, rarely imagined). As many have mentioned, better development processes/control (incl. regression testing, etc.) would help address the latter. The former is more difficult, and perhaps a large portion of performance issues come down to the code base. There may be certain operations that PERL, PHP, etc., may never be able to perform as efficiently as C dialects or other compiled programming languages. I have no idea what's towards the top of Logitech/Slim's priority list, but I'm wondering whether they aren't stepping back to take a look at the whole server package, and figuring out whether some parts of it shouldn't be modularized and then written using a code base that will address sluggishness and other performance symptoms. Of course this wouldn't be easy, but it would probably make it easier to release a server-in-a-box product (if that's what they have in mind) that would not get savaged by reviewers testing with large and/or complex media libraries. -- Balthazar_B Balthazar_B's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7366 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=32904 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Is Slimserver sustainable as Open Source?
Quoting Balthazar_B [EMAIL PROTECTED]: and/or bugs (usually real, rarely imagined). I think that is a statement that can easily lead to long hours of debate. This is starting to sound like yet another excuse to be condescending towards people who might actually know what they are doing. It seems open source also gains the perception that only untrained hacks take part. Then again, maybe I've just been imagining the increasing QA team. -kdf ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Is Slimserver sustainable as Open Source?
Balthazar_B wrote: Going back to the first message in this thread (and others similar to it), I think the root issue underlying whatever frustration users/customers are feeling is not really open vs. closed source. Rather, it generally comes down to performance (i.e., perceived lack of) and/or bugs (usually real, rarely imagined). As many have mentioned, better development processes/control (incl. regression testing, etc.) would help address the latter. The former is more difficult, and perhaps a large portion of performance issues come down to the code base. There may be certain operations that PERL, PHP, etc., may never be able to perform as efficiently as C dialects or other compiled programming languages. Perl is a compiled language. It's compiled when you start the program. There's no reason a Perl program can't be lightning fast. I have Perl programs processing thousands of users at a very high speed, it's all in the coding, of course. I have the feeling slimserver could be optimized to make certain operations that cause the slowness perception (like recursively adding a directory to a playlist) much faster. The web interface is responsible for a lot of the perceived slowness. I think it should be complemented with a slick GUI app that reacts instantaneously. Regards, Peter ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Is Slimserver sustainable as Open Source?
It is easy to get downhearted when the complainers seem to have a louder voice than anyone else, but take this post that I spotted over on the Topfield forums as inspiration: Good grief. I've just got my Squeezebox. I had installed the server t'other day. I plugged it in and after 10mins was merrily playing. As opposed to the 2 weeks for my MP101 and it's flakey software. It's, quite simply, the most awe-inspiring piece of home audio I've used. I dread to think how good a Transporter must be. If you're in the market for a network music player, buy this one. And have big grin on face! -- werock SlimServer: 6.5.1 OS: Ubuntu 6.06 Server: Jetway J7F2 C7 EDEN 1.2Ghz Fanless http://lescannoniers.blogspot.com/ werock's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4747 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=32904 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Is Slimserver sustainable as Open Source?
JJZolx;181793 Wrote: Closed or open source, doesn't matter a wit to me. If making it closed source would somehow hasten SlimServer's development into something more stable and usable, I'd be all for it. SlimServer still feels pretty primitive to me and its progress into something more advanced is progressing at a snails pace. I'm not exatly sure what to attribute that to. One, there are very few developers on the project, despite the open source approach. Two, they seem to spend a great deal of their time fixing bugs that keep reappearing. Also, the cross-platform compatibility issues also appear to be eating them up lately. This comment seems to me to be from a person who has made a smart comment which is completely out with my experience as a typical user. I don't look for problems. My slimserver/SB works well and is better than some pieces of hardware/software on XP. On Linux which is now my preferred OS the experience was involving and I can't see where the large number so called bugs are. I saw a slight problem with the top part of the web page on Konquerer, but the Firefox experience is nothing short of excellent. The system works superbly at playing music. I regard the web interface as a fantastic and well designed way to use the system. I find the design better than any other music playing software and I have tried many including WMP, nero, winamp etc al. Sean your device is great and, believe it or not, has helped convince me of hope for the future in that there are helpful people all over the world even in the state of Arne. Mike. -- mudlark SB3CyrusDACXPreXvs260AKEFiQ7 cable Avondale server Kubuntu Edgy, mudlark's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7151 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=32904 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Is Slimserver sustainable as Open Source?
werock;182182 Wrote: It is easy to get downhearted when the complainers seem to have a louder voice than anyone else, but take this post that I spotted over on the Topfield forums as inspiration: Good grief. I've just got my Squeezebox. I had installed the server t'other day. I plugged it in and after 10mins was merrily playing. As opposed to the 2 weeks for my MP101 and it's flakey software. It's, quite simply, the most awe-inspiring piece of home audio I've used. I dread to think how good a Transporter must be. If you're in the market for a network music player, buy this one. And have big grin on face! That was me! To my mind the SB3 is the Topfield of the network music player world, and there really is no higher compliment as far as I'm concerned. I've come from using a Netgear MP101. Netgear = big company. Server bundled with MP101 = doesn't work. That's not an opinion, it's a fact; it would NEVER find any albums past the letter D. So I used Twonky, but the bugs with that led me to look at my equipment again, i.e. various artist support=broken, iTunes playlists not found for no valid reason etc. I know Twonky's got more platforms and clients to support (not to mention video and pics). My personal experience. I read up on the SB3. I downloaded the user guide. It said install SS first. I did so. It found everything first time, even with McAfee running. I bought SB3. I plugged it in. I tweaked my preferences. I was playing music within 10 minutes. I would say I'm an average user. Win XP Home, a wireless router, iTunes, and iPod. I know the basics of how systems like SS/SB3 work, but nothing in depth. In my opinion, SS 6.5.1 is configured perfectly for Mr Average straight out of the box. It just works. The sound quality is superb. I've by no means got an audiophile set-up, but what I've got it's made sound 10x better. The great thing about SS, in my short use, is that it works out of the box, but if you want to take it further, the possibilities are endless. It strikes me these sort of extras can only be done if SS is open source. A good parallel is m other fave gear, the Topfield 5800. It works straight out of the box, albeit the user interface isn't massively intuitive - from reading this post some would say the same about SS (not me, coz I've only got experience of 3 servers!). However if you really want to make the Toppy fly, install TAPs (extra software packages) - again, this is only possible because Topfield have designed the box to be tweaked and changeable. I think if Logitech start getting this product on to the shelves in bigger retail outlets it'll do fine - as long as the retailers don't sit it on the shelves near the mp3 players! The challenge comes with the extra documentation needed, I guess. Average PC World/Currys customer won't want to be directed to a forum if they have problems! Anyway, no problems yet, but I'm sure I'll find the answers here if I have any! -- moley6knipe moley6knipe's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10014 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=32904 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Is Slimserver sustainable as Open Source?
I don't read these forums much anymore, because SS has improved so much over the last few years that I don't need to. My SB1 just works now, every day, all day. I can't remember the last time it gave me any trouble at all. Thanks Sean and everyone else who has helped make that happen. That's all I wanted to say. I look forward to seeing what new products are on the way. -- superbad superbad's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=53 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=32904 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Is Slimserver sustainable as Open Source?
I think this is really a good discussion and I hope somewhere Logitech and Slimdevices executive are reading it. On the other hand it is a pity if it gets side tracked by religious discussions about open vs. closed source software. It really doesn't matter whether the source is available to everybody and whether all the developers are Logitech employees or sitting somewhere in India (though I like open source :-) ). What it really matters is the product development process used. Most people buys the hardware because of its superior sound quality (there are many more much cheaper player out there) and they need some software on the server side to make it work. They expect something with a defined set of features and very good reliability. It doesn't help anything top have exotic features if the main ones are buggy. It doesn't help to get it running on weird OS's if the main ones covering 80% or more of the buyers does not work properly. I would like to see the community to take a step back and get things to work correctly for the majority. To do this two major steps are missing at the moment (I think): 1. Proper functional specification management. The actual approach is pushing lots of new features into the product via bug reports. By now no one knows anymore how things are supposed to be working. Things are reported as bugs and often fixed but no one is able to say: here is how it is supposed to work. If it doesn't it's a bug. If we don't like how it is designed than we can vote for changes to the specifications. As an example, look at the whole browsing/tags/searching mess. As a new user I was completely lost. I tried the forum, tried the support and only after filing 2 bugs (which turned out to be lack of documentation and few bugs) I have figured out how to not get my Various Artists to appear under the single artists even though I had selected the Group albums together option. In the process process argued that this was definetely a bug, by design and an enhancement. Looking back in the histiry files I can see that changes have been made which contradict each other. This is clearly lack of specifications management. 2. TEST, AUTOMATED TEST, and TEST MANAGEMENT. Yes if there is no automated tests in place to make sure that changes in the code does not screw up somethign which used to work, then - as the product grwos - is only going to get worst. This is even more important if the product really becomes open-source and amny more people are allowed to work on the source code (or for that matter if it is outsourced somewhere). Everytime a bug is fixed a new test script should be created to make sure that the bug does not cripple in again. Yes, this is going to be expensive, but so it is with high-quality: it costs! I bought one of the best hi-fi players on the market and I expect similar quality from the software as well: Reliability and easy of use. My 2cc. Alessandro -- Aguida Aguida's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9285 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=32904 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Is Slimserver sustainable as Open Source?
Personally I started with Slimserver when it lived at 6.2 - it was usable, buy did not do what I wanted... Simply because it was open source I was able to communicate with the development team and get MY Slimserver to act as I wanted (I wanted to stop having to scan your file system and have a method to add albums to the database as I ripped them). Dan (the lead developer) made the effort to assist me with this. I now have a customised Slimserver 6.5.1 that does exactly what I need - and what is more my Squeezebox/Slimserver is now not only the the coolest gadget I ever bought, but is also now also performing exactly as I would want it to. There are issues with Slimserver 6.5 that I would like to see dealt with better, but that comes down to personal preference... As my daytime job I am also a software developer and have to filter the personal preference from the 'enhancement to the system' that gets worked on - but my system is 'closed source' - mainly because my user base is the Business (who just expect IT to work). Ultimately at lot of what I do is a measure of benefit vs. cost - Sooner or later, whether this is closed or open source, you need SOMEONE to make that judgment - to be fair to SD this is something they do very wellI can see that my requirements are not those of the masses. BUT...because it is open source I can change it for me if I want to. Someone previously mentioned M$ - Try doing what I have done with a closed source model - it would be impossible. As a final signoff - Slimserver is a FANTASTIC piece of software...please remember that before you have a go at it... If you don't like it, you can join in and make it better (have a look at the Nokia 770 Skin, which is a superb example of someone wanting something and then making it available to the masses) - this is something that can never happen under a closed source model. Peace! Browny -- Browny http://www.last.fm/user/BrownySV/ Browny's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2295 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=32904 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Is Slimserver sustainable as Open Source?
If anyone from Logitech is reading this please note that if Logitech pull the plug on the open source side of Slimserver then all my Logitech stuff will go in the bin. A game controller, a keyboard and mouse, a joystick, a steering wheel and a squeezebox. I will never buy anything from Logitech ever again and I will use all opportunity to encourage people to stay open source. I feel very strongly about this stupid and dangerous comment from the first poster. If you think your views are reasonable go buy a closed source device and keep your comments off this forum. M. -- mudlark SB3cyrusDACXPreXvs260AKEFiQ7 cable avondale mudlark's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7151 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=32904 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Is Slimserver sustainable as Open Source?
mudlark;181893 Wrote: If anyone from Logitech is reading this please note that if Logitech pull the plug on the open source side of Slimserver then all my Logitech stuff will go in the bin. A game controller, a keyboard and mouse, a joystick, a steering wheel and a squeezebox. I will never buy anything from Logitech ever again and I will use all opportunity to encourage people to stay open source. I feel very strongly about this stupid and dangerous comment from the first poster. If you think your views are reasonable go buy a closed source device and keep your comments off this forum. M. PS I've a good experience with an PVR the Humax Duo visio 9200. This has been very buggy and is closed source. The updates are slow to arrive and the experience isn't much fun. Slimserver is just brilliant by comparison. Chill out. Other people have other needs, and didn't necessarily buy the sb because it was open source, but because it was the best thing out there. Your insistence that they should shut up or go away adds nothing of any value to the discussion. Open sourcing a project is neither a panacea nor a guarantee of a disaster. The issue of bringing in people from sd to do things like integrate a unit test harness, make sure that there is good test coverage, blah blah blah (all the stuff many developers don't like doing) is pretty pertinent, and imho, a lot of people are actually thinking about things like this when talking about going closed source (incorrectly conflating some issues, as I've pointed out earlier). Have you yourself ever actually written any significant software, so that you have _any_ basis at all for talking about how stupid and dangerous this discussion is? I have, and find your position completely insupportable. -- totoro squeezebox 3 - mccormack dna .5 - audio physic tempo 4 totoro's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=5935 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=32904 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Is Slimserver sustainable as Open Source?
David Alexander;181821 Wrote: Makes me wonder...if Slimserver had never developed web interfaces at all would people view the situation differently? That might actually have made it easier to move into the mainstream. That's a good point - hard to complain about it if it doesn't exist.. but that would make it a Roku with a better player user interface, wouldn't it? I've used both, and SB/SlimServer is far better IMO. And let's keep things in perspective here - Slim Devices never got big by itself - we're still in 'early-adopter/niche market' days here. I expect Logitech will be introducing some products that are barely recognizable as brethren of the SB3 we know and love in order to try to penetrate the mass-market - heck - it will probably be marketed as an 'mp3 player' (egads!) -- nicketynick Wireless SB3, Denon DRA-F101, Mission M31 loudspeakers WinXP SP2 Slimserver, SMC WBR14g router nicketynick's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=1511 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=32904 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Is Slimserver sustainable as Open Source?
totoro;181910 Wrote: Chill out. Other people have other needs, and didn't necessarily buy the sb because it was open source, but because it was the best thing out there. Your insistence that they should shut up or go away adds nothing of any value to the discussion. Open sourcing a project is neither a panacea nor a guarantee of a disaster. The issue of bringing in people from sd to do things like integrate a unit test harness, make sure that there is good test coverage, blah blah blah (all the stuff many developers don't like doing) is pretty pertinent, and imho, a lot of people are actually thinking about things like this when talking about going closed source (incorrectly conflating some issues, as I've pointed out earlier). Have you yourself ever actually written any significant software, so that you have _any_ basis at all for talking about how stupid and dangerous this discussion is? I have, and find your position completely insupportable. Hi totoro, Thanks for your comments. I am a bit sad because i have little compassion for some folks who want a world safe from any slight complications. i bought a squeezebox because of it's ability do a simple job for me and because it got a good write up from the reviewers. The community looked good also. I didn't buy it because it was open source. Since getting the Sb I have been encouraged to go Linux. This has been very helpful for me as it has given me hours of enjoyment and contact with a community which seems integrated with the developers and designers of the hardware. Before this experience I had some issues with conflicts in Windows XP. By experiment and ideas off the internet i sorted my problems out myself. I posted my experience and I hope that has helped others. This experience involved Logitech who were brilliant and helpful even when, in the end, they were not the guilty party. I got chuff all help from the software side. They wanted money with no guarantee of success. Logitech's attitude was great and I bought other stuff from them because of this experience. My conclusions are that the open source system seems to integrate users, developers and manufacturers closer together which helps me. I can't speak for others. I know the open source system is better for me. I haven't got any experience of writing any code or significant software, the reason why I am worried about the SB project going closed shop is that it will reduce the very great pleasure I get from the situation as it is. I see too much of the desperate drive to come up with a device to save the world (ipod style) and make lots of money. The sb model will never become run of the mill in the short term. All i am hoping is that this nerdy type device remains so accessible and enjoyable and does not become corrupted. I respect ipod and apple for what they have done, but PLEASE don't bugger up the sb model by wanting to make it the answer to Mrs Smith's cravings for a plug and play model. M. -- mudlark SB3cyrusDACXPreXvs260AKEFiQ7 cable avondale mudlark's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7151 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=32904 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Is Slimserver sustainable as Open Source?
Well, there are things going on at Slim Devices to which *I'm* not privy, but I'll go out on a limb and say a few things. At any other company, I would run such a post by my manager, and probably his manager, and maybe the PR director, but things are still open enough here that I think my own judgment is good enough for this post. The changes going on at Slim Devices broadly fall into two groups: Logitech wants to capitalize on its investment after the acquisition, and Slim Devices wants to use the financial backing of Logitech to organize itself into a well-run business unit instead of a startup running on a shoestring. Add into the mix that all of us here are very mindful that we don't want to lose any of the Slim Devices magic, whether that be engineering, quality, customer service, or community. Within a few months, you're going to see Squeezeboxes in major retail outlets for which the old Slim Devices could have never manufactured enough units, and advertising in places the old Slim Devices could have never afforded. Logitech has manufacturing and marketing muscle, and it's not something that's just available to us, it's part of Logitech's plan to sell a lot of Slim Devices products. And that's a good thing, because... We can now afford to take a few risks on new products. I'm still going to follow Sean's lead on not announcing anything before its time, but there are projects that Sean and Dean have wanted to do for a long time, as well as some things that might work well with Logitech's more traditional customer base that are now gathering steam. These two areas are where we're spending our energy. Throwing out the Slim Devices way of doing business is not part of the plan. I have been in meetings at Logitech now where we discuss products that have been flops (or worse, are in the process of flopping). I don't want to insult my new coworkers, but many of these flops are due to very strange thinking from a Slim Devices point of view. You can spend a lot of time doing market research and interface design and writing specifications and developing hardware and software, release it, fix some bugs, and start the whole cycle over again... Or you can make it powerful enough and flexible enough and open enough that the *customers* can *turn it into* the product that *they want to use*. Naturally there still has to be support and direction on the Slim Devices side, but there are definitely real business benefits to the Open Source approach. Now, looking back at what I've written, can you see where in these plans and priorities killing Slimserver would fit in? Do see where a plan to spend a lot of legal and development energy reinventing the wheel and ending up with a proprietary software package would fit in? Me neither. -- ChrisOwens Christopher Owens QA Manager [EMAIL PROTECTED] (650) 210-9400 x717 ChrisOwens's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4240 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=32904 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Is Slimserver sustainable as Open Source?
amcluesent;181733 Wrote: Not wanting to start a flame war here, but seriously is the current open source approach to developing Slimserver viable? Yes. #!/ben -- bklaas the Nokia770 skin guy http://www.last.fm/user/bklaas/ bklaas's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=58 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=32904 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Is Slimserver sustainable as Open Source?
Wow, that's more than we've heard for you guys in a long time! Thanks Chris! And you thought that every word that the Fed Chairman (Bernanke, and Greenspan before him) said was carefully dissected - watch this space! Have to admit I'm on pins and needles now - I was starting to get discouraged, but now I can't wait to see what comes next - and April 1st is coming quick! -- nicketynick Wireless SB3, Denon DRA-F101, Mission M31 loudspeakers WinXP SP2 Slimserver, SMC WBR14g router nicketynick's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=1511 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=32904 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Is Slimserver sustainable as Open Source?
Good to hear that plans in-place to match the great capabilities of the Squeezebox/Slimserver (when it running well) with a mature, disciplined s/w development process. As was pointed out, I was using 'open source' to conflate numerous dimensions on which to place slimserver, such as - Open source - closed source as a licensing model Community - in-house team for s/w build and testing multi-platform - Wintel as target Binary - perl as technology stack Having read the posts, my original assertion was that slimserver was currently placed at the atypical ends of many of these dimensions. The mass-market for Squeezeboxes would be people who have already got a ripped music library, which would overwhelmingly mean iPod owners using Windows XP - that's just a fact. So would the current slimserver delight that marketplace? IMHO, no it wouldn't as of 6.5.1 And I would wager that a non-trvial number of Squeezebox buyers aren't even aware they need to run slimserver. Looking forward to slimserver 7. :-) -- amcluesent amcluesent's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10286 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=32904 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Is Slimserver sustainable as Open Source?
ChrisOwens wrote: Well, there are things going on at Slim Devices to which *I'm* not privy, but I'll go out on a limb and say a few things. At any other company, I would run such a post by my manager, and probably his manager, and maybe the PR director, but things are still open enough here that I think my own judgment is good enough for this post. The changes going on at Slim Devices broadly fall into two groups: Logitech wants to capitalize on its investment after the acquisition, and Slim Devices wants to use the financial backing of Logitech to organize itself into a well-run business unit instead of a startup running on a shoestring. Add into the mix that all of us here are very mindful that we don't want to lose any of the Slim Devices magic, whether that be engineering, quality, customer service, or community. Within a few months, you're going to see Squeezeboxes in major retail outlets for which the old Slim Devices could have never manufactured enough units, and advertising in places the old Slim Devices could have never afforded. Logitech has manufacturing and marketing muscle, and it's not something that's just available to us, it's part of Logitech's plan to sell a lot of Slim Devices products. And that's a good thing, because... We can now afford to take a few risks on new products. I'm still going to follow Sean's lead on not announcing anything before its time, but there are projects that Sean and Dean have wanted to do for a long time, as well as some things that might work well with Logitech's more traditional customer base that are now gathering steam. These two areas are where we're spending our energy. Throwing out the Slim Devices way of doing business is not part of the plan. I have been in meetings at Logitech now where we discuss products that have been flops (or worse, are in the process of flopping). I don't want to insult my new coworkers, but many of these flops are due to very strange thinking from a Slim Devices point of view. You can spend a lot of time doing market research and interface design and writing specifications and developing hardware and software, release it, fix some bugs, and start the whole cycle over again... Or you can make it powerful enough and flexible enough and open enough that the *customers* can *turn it into* the product that *they want to use*. Naturally there still has to be support and direction on the Slim Devices side, but there are definitely real business benefits to the Open Source approach. Now, looking back at what I've written, can you see where in these plans and priorities killing Slimserver would fit in? Do see where a plan to spend a lot of legal and development energy reinventing the wheel and ending up with a proprietary software package would fit in? Me neither. Thanks for the reassuring words, Chris. We all hope the SD of making and supporting will take over the world even if it will mean we'll be a little less l33t. Regards, Peter ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Is Slimserver sustainable as Open Source?
Thanks Chris for that very informative post. This really eases my fear of the whole Logitech deal. Vive La Open Source! BD -- bdelp bdelp's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=1936 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=32904 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Is Slimserver sustainable as Open Source?
ChrisOwens;181947 Wrote: Well, there are things going on at Slim Devices to which *I'm* not privy, but I'll go out on a limb and say a few things. At any other company, I would run such a post by my manager, and probably his manager, and maybe the PR director, but things are still open enough here that I think my own judgment is good enough for this post. The changes going on at Slim Devices broadly fall into two groups: Logitech wants to capitalize on its investment after the acquisition, and Slim Devices wants to use the financial backing of Logitech to organize itself into a well-run business unit instead of a startup running on a shoestring. Add into the mix that all of us here are very mindful that we don't want to lose any of the Slim Devices magic, whether that be engineering, quality, customer service, or community. Within a few months, you're going to see Squeezeboxes in major retail outlets for which the old Slim Devices could have never manufactured enough units, and advertising in places the old Slim Devices could have never afforded. Logitech has manufacturing and marketing muscle, and it's not something that's just available to us, it's part of Logitech's plan to sell a lot of Slim Devices products. And that's a good thing, because... We can now afford to take a few risks on new products. I'm still going to follow Sean's lead on not announcing anything before its time, but there are projects that Sean and Dean have wanted to do for a long time, as well as some things that might work well with Logitech's more traditional customer base that are now gathering steam. These two areas are where we're spending our energy. Throwing out the Slim Devices way of doing business is not part of the plan. I have been in meetings at Logitech now where we discuss products that have been flops (or worse, are in the process of flopping). I don't want to insult my new coworkers, but many of these flops are due to very strange thinking from a Slim Devices point of view. You can spend a lot of time doing market research and interface design and writing specifications and developing hardware and software, release it, fix some bugs, and start the whole cycle over again... Or you can make it powerful enough and flexible enough and open enough that the *customers* can *turn it into* the product that *they want to use*. Naturally there still has to be support and direction on the Slim Devices side, but there are definitely real business benefits to the Open Source approach. Now, looking back at what I've written, can you see where in these plans and priorities killing Slimserver would fit in? Do see where a plan to spend a lot of legal and development energy reinventing the wheel and ending up with a proprietary software package would fit in? Me neither. Shit hot, thanks heavens for that, YES, etc Chris, Thanks for taking the risk with such a post. I'm an insignificant git from cumbria in the UK. I got treated well by a nice Logitech chap from Switzerland and now I hope I get the drift about a company in the USA. Please don't let us down! All the best, Mike. -- mudlark SB3cyrusDACXPreXvs260AKEFiQ7 cable avondale mudlark's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7151 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=32904 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Is Slimserver sustainable as Open Source?
amcluesent wrote: The mass-market for Squeezeboxes would be people who have already got a ripped music library, which would overwhelmingly mean iPod owners using Windows XP - that's just a fact. So would the current slimserver delight that marketplace? IMHO, no it wouldn't as of 6.5.1 And I would wager that a non-trvial number of Squeezebox buyers aren't even aware they need to run slimserver. So the smart thing for Logitech to do isn't to close the source, but to concentrate their investment on QA and Dev staff to shore up that (admittedly poorly served) use case. The existing community can keep testing/improving the code for the fringe platforms we all run, just fine. - Marc ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Is Slimserver sustainable as Open Source?
SS is great as is, my GF even told me this after looking at it for the first time. She goes, If I had this, I'd be at my computer for hours at a time. No kidding, I told her. Why change just for the sake of change. The Open Source model obviously is working. How do I know? Because I'm using the software, and I'm not one of the developers. To me that is the definition of it just works. Sure, other people are devoting resources and time to make it work, but as long as that remains the case, why close the source? If the open source community dries up, then SD/Logitech could take over. Until then, why mess with a good thing? JMTCW. -- ezkcdude DIY projects page: http://www.ezdiyaudio.com System: SB3-EZDAC-MIT Terminator 2 interconnects-Endler Audio 24-step Attenuators (RCA-direct)-Parasound Halo A23 125W/ch amplifier-Speltz anti-cables-DIY 2-ways + Dayton Titanic 10 subwoofer He's not hi-fi, he's my stereo. ezkcdude's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2545 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=32904 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Is Slimserver sustainable as Open Source?
Throwing out the Slim Devices way of doing business is not part of the plan. I have been in meetings at Logitech now where we discuss products that have been flops (or worse, are in the process of flopping). I don't want to insult my new coworkers, but many of these flops are due to very strange thinking from a Slim Devices point of view. You can spend a lot of time doing market research and interface design and writing specifications and developing hardware and software, release it, fix some bugs, and start the whole cycle over again... Or you can make it powerful enough and flexible enough and open enough that the *customers* can *turn it into* the product that *they want to use*. Naturally there still has to be support and direction on the Slim Devices side, but there are definitely real business benefits to the Open Source approach. I'm not disagreeing with you. I think that going open source was brilliant move by Slimdevices. But a counter-example would be Apple. The iPod is hugely popular, but its barely customizable, compared to the Squeezebox. -- Nostromo Nostromo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=6322 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=32904 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Is Slimserver sustainable as Open Source?
ChrisOwens;181947 Wrote: Throwing out the Slim Devices way of doing business is not part of the plan. I have been in meetings at Logitech now where we discuss products that have been flops (or worse, are in the process of flopping). I don't want to insult my new coworkers, but many of these flops are due to very strange thinking from a Slim Devices point of view. You can spend a lot of time doing market research and interface design and writing specifications and developing hardware and software, release it, fix some bugs, and start the whole cycle over again... Or you can make it powerful enough and flexible enough and open enough that the *customers* can *turn it into* the product that *they want to use*. Naturally there still has to be support and direction on the Slim Devices side, but there are definitely real business benefits to the Open Source approach. I'm not disagreeing with you. I think that going open source was brilliant move by Slimdevices. But a counter-example would be Apple. The iPod is hugely popular, but its barely customizable, compared to the Squeezebox. -- Nostromo Nostromo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=6322 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=32904 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Is Slimserver sustainable as Open Source?
nicketynick;181952 Wrote: Wow, that's more than we've heard for you guys in a long time! Thanks Chris! No, it's pretty much the *only* thing we've heard in a long time. -- JJZolx Jim JJZolx's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=32904 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Is Slimserver sustainable as Open Source?
nicketynick;181952 Wrote: Wow, that's more than we've heard for you guys in a long time! Thanks Chris! And you thought that every word that the Fed Chairman (Bernanke, and Greenspan before him) said was carefully dissected - watch this space! Have to admit I'm on pins and needles now - I was starting to get discouraged, but now I can't wait to see what comes next - and April 1st is coming quick! I will settle for getting the KRONOS shipping... http://www.slimdevices.com/au_press_kronos.html I can almost guarantee there will be a new product announced on April 1st. -- snarlydwarf snarlydwarf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=1179 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=32904 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Is Slimserver sustainable as Open Source?
nearly LOL, brilliant. every company has someone with the foresight to be really at the cutting edge. promote that man/woman immediately. -- mudlark SB3CyrusDACXPreXvs260AKEFiQ7 cable Avondale server Kubuntu Edgy, mudlark's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7151 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=32904 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Is Slimserver sustainable as Open Source?
Quoting JJZolx [EMAIL PROTECTED]: nicketynick;181952 Wrote: Wow, that's more than we've heard for you guys in a long time! Thanks Chris! No, it's pretty much the *only* thing we've heard in a long time. given how unpleasant the responses often get, no shock there. -kdf ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Is Slimserver sustainable as Open Source?
Nostromo wrote: ChrisOwens;181947 Wrote: Throwing out the Slim Devices way of doing business is not part of the plan. I have been in meetings at Logitech now where we discuss products that have been flops (or worse, are in the process of flopping). I don't want to insult my new coworkers, but many of these flops are due to very strange thinking from a Slim Devices point of view. You can spend a lot of time doing market research and interface design and writing specifications and developing hardware and software, release it, fix some bugs, and start the whole cycle over again... Or you can make it powerful enough and flexible enough and open enough that the *customers* can *turn it into* the product that *they want to use*. Naturally there still has to be support and direction on the Slim Devices side, but there are definitely real business benefits to the Open Source approach. I'm not disagreeing with you. I think that going open source was brilliant move by Slimdevices. But a counter-example would be Apple. The iPod is hugely popular, but its barely customizable, compared to the Squeezebox. Apple has huge funds for marketing. SD hadn't. They targeted a specific group of tech savvy people who would want such a product and consider the OS nature of the system an advantage as well as insurance against the company going under. I was one of those who bought the first SliMP3 and it was a bit of a leap of faith to buy something from an unknown company that had only just obtained a back cover. But the system was exactly what I wanted, so I got one anyway. They weren't cheap back then either. Regards, Peter ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Is Slimserver sustainable as Open Source?
kdf;182057 Wrote: No, it's pretty much the *only* thing we've heard in a long time. given how unpleasant the responses often get, no shock there. What do you think it's going to be like once WalMart and Target start selling these things? I suppose when that happens we can expect absolutely no communication from Slim Devices in these forums. Maybe it's just me, but doesn't open source imply some level of communication, at least among developers? Or is it felt that making the source code public is the only requirement? As I've noted elsewhere, SlimServer development has all but stopped in its tracks, I guess while other projects take precedence. To me, this is the most important indicator of how well the current software development approach - call it what you like - is doing. When the entire company and all of its develppers decide to focus on something else and not even major bugs are being addressed, then what difference does it make? -- JJZolx Jim JJZolx's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=32904 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Is Slimserver sustainable as Open Source?
Maybe it's just me, but doesn't open source imply some level of communication, at least among developers? Don't worry, there is. -- Michael - http://www.herger.net/SlimCD - your SlimServer on a CD http://www.herger.net/slim - AlbumReview, Biography, MusicInfoSCR ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Is Slimserver sustainable as Open Source?
Quoting JJZolx [EMAIL PROTECTED]: kdf;182057 Wrote: No, it's pretty much the *only* thing we've heard in a long time. given how unpleasant the responses often get, no shock there. What do you think it's going to be like once WalMart and Target start selling these things? That's irrelevant. I suppose when that happens we can expect absolutely no communication from Slim Devices in these forums. incorrect. plenty from andy and ross. Maybe it's just me, but doesn't open source imply some level of communication, at least among developers? there is plenty of communication. Or is it felt that making the source code public is the only requirement? I'll leave the reading of the GPL for you. As I've noted elsewhere, SlimServer development has all but stopped in its tracks And it's been noted that you are way off base on that one. Totally incorrect. Just because YOUR bugs aren't getting 4 posts a day and one fixed every couple of days doesn't mean it's stopped. It just means no one needs any information from you. svn is fully viewable. Anyone can see just how much is going on. plain FUD. -kdf ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Is Slimserver sustainable as Open Source?
On 2/20/07, kdf [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: As I've noted elsewhere, SlimServer development has all but stopped in its tracks And it's been noted that you are way off base on that one. Totally incorrect. Just because YOUR bugs aren't getting 4 posts a day and one fixed every couple of days doesn't mean it's stopped. It just means no one needs any information from you. Also, as you know kdf, SD will often go 'offline' for non-public projects and then a massive svn merge happens once the info is public. I think they may be targeting more for 7.0 than is currently on the roadmap. Some people just need to complain, don't let them get you down. Ben ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Is Slimserver sustainable as Open Source?
Ben Sandee;182131 Wrote: SD will often go 'offline' for non-public projects and then a massive svn merge happens once the info is public. I think they may be targeting more for 7.0 than is currently on the roadmap. Some people just need to complain, don't let them get you down. Not a complaint, just an observation about the lack of substantial visible work on SlimServer over the past four months. If there's a complaint, it's only about the complete lack of communication that was so commonplace before the Logitech buyout. Ah well, things change. We have Squeezebox magazine ads and Logitech branded SBs at Sam's Club to look forward to. REAL progress... -- JJZolx Jim JJZolx's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=32904 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Is Slimserver sustainable as Open Source?
JJZolx;182134 Wrote: Not a complaint, just an observation about the lack of substantial visible work on SlimServer over the past four months. I would really like to understand where you're getting that impression, because I get a steady stream of code checkins and bug updates all day long which suggest quite the opposite. That's not to mention other new non-SS releases such as Rhapsody, which take many man-months to complete... perhaps you don't care, but others certainly do! What you're saying is demonstrably 100% false, so I can only guess that there some specific thing you want to see from us that is not happening? -- seanadams seanadams's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=32904 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Is Slimserver sustainable as Open Source?
So if it is sustainable, and these will be on shelves, this is all good news. People learn about open source software, while freeing their music. Both worthy causes, and if represented on the shelves of wal mart then all the better. Wal mart people need a wizard and probably app too, though. Sb3 being on the shelves now would be a bit like making the horse push the cart IMHO. FWIW sean still posts here a lot. -- Skunk Skunk's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2685 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=32904 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Is Slimserver sustainable as Open Source?
Is it time for Logitech to fork the build, so that the community can take the GPL version for U*nix and there is a closed source Win32 binary for the man-in-the-street? What advantage would you hope to see by closing the source? -- Michael - http://www.herger.net/SlimCD - your SlimServer on a CD http://www.herger.net/slim - AlbumReview, Biography, MusicInfoSCR ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Is Slimserver sustainable as Open Source?
amcluesent;181733 Wrote: I appreciate that the community provides plug-ins etc. but so does the community for PhotoShop, it just needs a documented API. Non-Slim employees contribute to the main codebase as well as external plugins. If 'mainstream' consumers are dropping a few $100 on the Squeezebox and Transporter, the slimserver with the bugs of 6.5.1 and issues with Vista seems to devalue the experience. (As a recent buyer of a squeezbox, I decided to go with 6.3.1) Is it time for Logitech to fork the build, so that the community can take the GPL version for U*nix and there is a closed source Win32 binary for the man-in-the-street? Why would slimserver be *more* stable with fewer people looking at it and working on it? -- Fletch Fletch's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=529 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=32904 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Is Slimserver sustainable as Open Source?
amcluesent wrote: Not wanting to start a flame war here, but seriously is the current open source approach to developing Slimserver viable? Do you have any idea what open source software means? Do you know that at least 50% of the servers on the Internet, worldwide, run Apache, which is open source? Do you know what LAMP means and why most of the new websites are using it? Hint, the letters stand for Linux, Apache, MySql and Perl/Php. Do you have a real question? or are you just throwing out gasoline hoping for a flame war? -- Pat http://www.pfarrell.com/music/slimserver/slimsoftware.html ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Is Slimserver sustainable as Open Source?
On Mon, 19 Feb 2007 21:09:50 +0100, Michael Herger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Is it time for Logitech to fork the build, so that the community can take the GPL version for U*nix and there is a closed source Win32 binary for the man-in-the-street? What advantage would you hope to see by closing the source? I think what he was getting at was that the Slim experience is as much influenced by the software as it is the hardware, and by not controlling the software Logitech may be risking developing a negative product image when the community-developed-software is perceived to be as buggy and difficult as some of the recent releases have been perceived as being. This didn't seem to hurt Slim Devices so much, but then they were more of a grass roots type of company with many loyal early adopters. Two factors that could change that are, 1) the hardware is moving further to the mainstream market where people are less likely to be willing to tinker to get things working, and 2) the software becomes more complex with each release and therefore the possibility of perceived quality control issues will be greater in the future than it has in the past. Note, I'm not making any judgements here, just fleshing out the argument. ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Is Slimserver sustainable as Open Source?
by not controlling the software Logitech may be risking developing a negative product image Development is pretty well controlled by Logitech. There aren't many outside developers with write access to the trunk. -- Michael - http://www.herger.net/SlimCD - your SlimServer on a CD http://www.herger.net/slim - AlbumReview, Biography, MusicInfoSCR ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Is Slimserver sustainable as Open Source?
Quoting David Alexander [EMAIL PROTECTED]: as buggy and difficult as some of the recent releases have been perceived as being. as always, by a disproportionally vocal minority, pushing hard on advanced features, rather than the best practises for slimserver methods while claiming all they want is to listen to music. In my time being involved with slimserver, I've not seen a single release that has been greeted with this is great for longer than a half a dozen posts before the complaints begin. Now, as 6.5.1 is around, 6.3.1 is the safehouse, yet when that was new the complaints were all the same. Some will still claim 5.4.1 is the only stable version around. Great that everyone has the freedom to choose. This is no different for closed software. WinXP when new, horrible and buggy while Win2k was nearing maturity and working fairly well. I think the real difference is the expectation. Closed source, you know there is nothing you can do, so complaining really doesn't do anything. Open source, things to happen. Some will always believe that complaining loudly is the most effective. Long term viability: if Slim Devices or Logitech ever suddenly vanish from the planet, SlimServer is already public. Anyone, anywhere can add new features until the last piece of hardware goes dark. -kdf ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Is Slimserver sustainable as Open Source?
Long term viability: if Slim Devices or Logitech ever suddenly vanish from the planet, SlimServer is already public. Anyone, anywhere can add new features until the last piece of hardware goes dark. Amen. That's why I picked Slimserver over closed solutions. Kevin -- Kevin O. Lepard Happiness is being 100% Microsoft free. ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Is Slimserver sustainable as Open Source?
Open source doesn't have to be of low quality! My experience with ever-changing Eclipse proves that to me very well. It's all a matter of good organization, good project management (read - testing control), and final quality control (testing, again). -- 325xi simaudio nova cdp simaudio moon i-5 revel performa m20 via acoustic zen matrix reference ii and acoustic zen satori -planned additions:... deq2496 lavry da-10 ...- 325xi's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=5661 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=32904 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Is Slimserver sustainable as Open Source?
Closed or open source, doesn't matter a wit to me. If making it closed source would somehow hasten SlimServer's development into something more stable and usable, I'd be all for it. SlimServer still feels pretty primitive to me and its progress into something more advanced is progressing at a snails pace. I'm not exatly sure what to attribute that to. One, there are very few developers on the project, despite the open source approach. Two, they seem to spend a great deal of their time fixing bugs that keep reappearing. Also, the cross-platform compatibility issues also appear to be eating them up lately. -- JJZolx Jim JJZolx's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=32904 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Is Slimserver sustainable as Open Source?
Pat Farrell;181799 Wrote: Open or closed has nothing to do with speed of development. And adding more developers usually slows development efforts. Microsoft claimed to have 5,000 developers on Vista, it came out late, buggy and missing key features. Read Fred Brook's Mythical Man Month for some insight. I have. SlimServer ain't Vista or OS/360. It's a project with two or three full time developers and a handful of part-timers. Adding a couple of full time in-house software engineers to that total would do wonders. There are obviously things going on right now at the former Slim Devices to which we aren't privvy. Hell, maybe they've already made the decision to abandon SlimServer as it now stands and are feverishly working on a proprietary Windows-only package being outsourced to a coding sweatshop in Russia or India. -- JJZolx Jim JJZolx's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=32904 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Is Slimserver sustainable as Open Source?
JJZolx wrote: There are obviously things going on right now at the former Slim Devices to which we aren't privvy. Hell, maybe they've already made the decision to abandon SlimServer as it now stands and are feverishly working on a proprietary Windows-only package being outsourced to a coding sweatshop in Russia or India. Where in the world do you get this? What is obvious? And why would you even speculate that they'd move to Windows-only? As KDF said, I really don't care what Logitech does, the existing code works fine for me and I've got the source. Looks like flame bait to me. -- Pat http://www.pfarrell.com/music/slimserver/slimsoftware.html ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Is Slimserver sustainable as Open Source?
On Mon, 19 Feb 2007 15:24:26 -0800, JJZolx [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Closed or open source, doesn't matter a wit to me. If making it closed source would somehow hasten SlimServer's development into something more stable and usable, I'd be all for it. SlimServer still feels pretty primitive to me and its progress into something more advanced is progressing at a snails pace. Personally, I don't care too much about the open/closed source issue at this time either. However, I always wonder why some people regard Slimserver as such a primitive tool. I thought the original SliMP3/Slimserver combination was already nearly perfect back with version 1x or 2x or whatever. To me it was all about serving up music to the hardware and providing a very usable remote control driven interface in the living room. The web interface is/was just an afterthought and not something I really used too much since it basically means I have to go into the den to use it. Providing an interface that can efficiently navigate through thousands of songs and albums on a small two-line text display is not easy. Slim did it. So did the Audiotron. There seem to be two camps of people... 1) those like me who see Slimserver as just one tool of several in the digital music toolbox, and 2) those who think Slimserver should be some kind of do-all iTunes killer. Personally, I'm fine with using other available tools to rip/manage/tag/organize my library and just letting Slimserver be the transport mechanism with a good usable interface at the device. Makes me wonder...if Slimserver had never developed web interfaces at all would people view the situation differently? That might actually have made it easier to move into the mainstream. ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Is Slimserver sustainable as Open Source?
Pat Farrell;181799 Wrote: \ Open or closed has nothing to do with speed of development. And adding more developers usually slows development efforts. On point one: well, sort of. I guess the issue here might not be open-source, so much as the leaders of the project being able to force/entice/whatever other contributors to do things they don't feel like doing. This is a classic problem in all-volunteer open source projects. Of course, you can have a way around this by simply having more employees of SD working on the code, so that the unglamorous/unpleasant/boring/miserable stuff is more likely to get done. On point two, again, sort of, really depends. Sure it's the case that in a project that's going along with a dozen programmers, suddenly upping the number to a hundred probably won't help much. But if you have a company sponsored open source project with a couple of employees and some volunteers, adding new employees to the mix could help in numerous ways. One is addressed above. Regardless of what the mythical man month claims, you're throwing the baby out with the bathwater if you try to claim that it never or almost never helps to add developers. I've certainly been in situations in my career when getting a couple bodies onto my projects when I was completely swamped was crucial, and the only thing that enabled the projects to succeed. I'd guess that many other people have, as well. -- totoro squeezebox 3 - mccormack dna .5 - audio physic tempo 4 totoro's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=5935 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=32904 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Is Slimserver sustainable as Open Source?
totoro wrote: On point one: well, sort of. I guess the issue here might not be open-source, so much as the leaders of the project being able to force/entice/whatever other contributors to do things they don't feel like doing. This is a classic problem in all-volunteer open source projects. Of course, you can have a way around this by simply having more employees of SD working on the code, so that the unglamorous/unpleasant/boring/miserable stuff is more likely to get done. Yes, the only way I've ever seen folks get motivated to doing the unglamorous/unpleasant/boring/miserable stuff is to pay them. And sometimes that isn't enough. Software developers are rarely motivated by money. They all want to do the cool stuff. One is addressed above. Regardless of what the mythical man month claims, you're throwing the baby out with the bathwater if you try to claim that it never or almost never helps to add developers. I didn't claim that. With tiny teams, sometimes adding developers helps. But it is never without cost, and adding people only works if the tasks are suitable for parallel development, and if the people are good. But the Mythical Man Month speaks the truth. Adding people to a late project makes it farther behind. I've certainly been in situations in my career when getting a couple bodies onto my projects when I was completely swamped was crucial, and the only thing that enabled the projects to succeed. I've never seen a case where adding bodies helped. Adding talented and motivated folks, sure. There is a difference. But this is not comp.software.engineering so I'm not sure that this is a useful thread for me to comment on. As the wise man has said in many other threads: Patches welcome. -- Pat http://www.pfarrell.com/music/slimserver/slimsoftware.html ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Is Slimserver sustainable as Open Source?
Pat Farrell wrote: Yes, the only way I've ever seen folks get motivated to doing the unglamorous/unpleasant/boring/miserable stuff is to pay them. And sometimes that isn't enough. Software developers are rarely motivated by money. They all want to do the cool stuff. I think you need a carrot and stick: forcing the employee to do the occasional necessary grunt-work, while giving rewards for it, and managing things so that nobody has to do _all_ grunt-work. As to the money, I kind of like both, and I'd bet there are a lot of people with the same preference. My only point here is that sometimes I see people conflating open-source with all or primarily volunteer. This doesn't have to be the case (as IBM, amongst others, has shown). I didn't claim that. With tiny teams, sometimes adding developers helps. But it is never without cost, and adding people only works if the tasks are suitable for parallel development, and if the people are good. Agreed. But it's not _that_ hard to find good people, and since slimserver's development is already heavily parallelized, I would think that it could absorb more people into it from SD, esp the roles that open source volunteers don't typically enjoy. But the Mythical Man Month speaks the truth. Adding people to a late project makes it farther behind. Agreed, mostly (caveat below). But I'm not sure I see how that is relevant. Nobody here is talking about adding 12 more developers to make the next arbitrary date for a release, as far as I can see. I've never seen a case where adding bodies helped. Adding talented and motivated folks, sure. There is a difference. Yep. When I spoke of adding bodies, I meant good ones: I was the primary developer on these projects, so it would have hurt me rather than helped me if they were stooges. Why would _anyone_ want to add untalented/unmotivated people to a project? -- totoro squeezebox 3 - mccormack dna .5 - audio physic tempo 4 totoro's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=5935 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=32904 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Is Slimserver sustainable as Open Source?
amcluesent;181733 Wrote: Not wanting to start a flame war here, but seriously is the current open source approach to developing Slimserver viable? Is it time for Logitech to fork the build, so that the community can take the GPL version for U*nix and there is a closed source Win32 binary for the man-in-the-street?This has nothing to do with open source. Logitech can already today choose to fork the build and make a Win32 binary, but I can't see any reason why the Win32 binary can't be open sourced. One reason to choose the closed source path is if you want to make sure no competitor can use your work. SlimServer is already adapted for specific use with the SqueezeBox/Transporter and the SlimProto protocol used. This makes the source code almost unusable for any competitor which wants to use SlimServer with their own hardware. Another reason to choose the closed source path is if you want to earn money on the software, SlimDevices has so far been focused on earning the money on the hardware. When moving to the massmarket it might be a good idea to focus a bit more on the software, but as long as SqueezeBox/Transporter is delivered with SlimServer and there is no alternative software I can't see any benefit of going the closed source path. Any new SlimServer replacement which costs money must also be a lot better than the current SlimServer since users always can choose to run the open sourced SlimServer version instead. So you would get a huge development cost to develop something new and it would take some time before you can start earn money on it since a similar open sourced version exist. In my personal opinion it is a lot better to focus these efforts on the hardware or the current open sourced version. SlimServer must be good enough so it isn't a reason for people to choose other hardware, but it doesn't have to be the best software out there. There are two major complaints to SlimServer today, some people have problem to get it to work and other people complains about the usability of the web interface. These issues needs to be solved by Logitech, but as I see it both these issues will be a lot easier to solve in the current architecture compared to writing a Win32 replacement of SlimServer. -- erland Erland Isaksson 'My homepage' (http://erland.homeip.net) 'My download page' (http://erland.homeip.net/download) (Developer of 'TrackStat, SQLPlayList, DynamicPlayList, Custom Browse, Custom Scan, Custom Skip, Multi Library and RandomPlayList plugins' (http://wiki.erland.homeip.net/index.php/Category:SlimServer)) erland's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3124 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=32904 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
