Re: FAQ and education mailing list

[Alex Harui]

I'm definitely not an expert in this area, but want to share some thoughts:

1) If this group wants to be open and transparent then the number of mailing 
lists will not matter.  Trolls will find any public mailing list.  
Well-intentioned newbies will not understand which list to choose from.  
They'll just pick one.  So we might as well just have one list for now.

2) IMO, "Patience" has two meanings:  a) waiting, and b) not reacting.  I don't 
think Gris meant that we should wait out the trolls and keep answering them.  
Instead, each troll should be seen as an opportunity to practice and hone a 
proper response that shuts down the troll and allows everyone else to continue 
making progress.  IMO, I still see too much reacting on this list.  Reacting is 
what the trolls want from us.  They want you to divert your energy to them.  
The trolls will not go away anytime soon.  I think we'll be better off 
expecting that some of our energy will be diverted by trolls and spend some 
energy on minimizing how much energy goes to them.  The FAQ will hopefully help 
in that regard.

My 2 cents,
-Alex

On 5/13/19, 2:38 PM, "Matt Sicker"  wrote:

And patience is fairly difficult when dealing with obvious concern trolls.
That has been especially annoying on members@, board@, etc, where we’re
supposed to assume good faith. However, only one side in the game takes a
loss when doing so in an iterated game. I’d rather not summarize the
depressing relationship between game theory and discourse, but I hope you
get the idea.

On Mon, May 13, 2019 at 16:29, Matt Sicker  wrote:

> As a project, it could use dev@ and user@ like typical projects. User
> list for questions, dev list for research and actions. It sort of makes
> sense.
>
> On Mon, May 13, 2019 at 16:23, Joan Touzet  wrote:
>
>> On 2019-05-13 16:37, Griselda Cuevas wrote:
>> > Teaching by preaching is what will earn us respect, credibility and
>> > authority to speak of this topic.
>>
>> Gris, can I ask what you mean by "preaching" in this context?
>>
>> For me this has a very negative connotation and feels out of place in a
>> secular organisation such as the ASF.
>>
>> -Joan
>>
>>
>> -
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: diversity-unsubscr...@apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: diversity-h...@apache.org
>>
>> --
> Matt Sicker 
>
-- 
Matt Sicker 

Re: [FAQ] Proto-FAQ question 1

[Kenneth Knowles]

I alluded to this elsewhere, but I would welcome feedback on whether this
perspective is relevant. It hinges on whether the ASF's mission is to
provide software *that is a public good* in the technical economics sense
(non-excludable non-rivalrous) or software *for the public good* (aka the
benefit of the public). The ASL seems oriented towards the former, while
the foundation has a lot more of the latter than I realized 5 years ago. If
the latter carries weight, there's this...

A: The mission of the ASF is to provide software for the public good. The
best way to ensure something is for the public good is to include a diverse
sample of the public in its development and direction. Those who are not
represented in development of Apache projects are probably less well-served
by those projects. At best, we just don't know. To assume otherwise is
paternalistic [1]. So increased diversity and inclusion automatically
advances the foundation's mission, whether or not you know or care about
the race, ethnicity, gender, age, weight, or any other personal
characteristics of other contributors.

Kenn

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paternalism


*From: *Patricia Shanahan 
*Date: *Mon, May 13, 2019 at 1:14 PM
*To: * 

The first and most important question is something along the lines of:
>
> --
>
> Q: Apache does everything by e-mail. I do not know or care about the
> race, ethnicity, gender, age, weight, or any other personal
> characteristics of other contributors. Why are diversity and inclusion
> relevant issues for Apache?
>
> --
>
> Here are some elements that I think should be covered in the answer. At
> this point, I am going for the big picture. Please suggest improvements
> and fix errors.
>
> --
>
> 1. Subconscious bias: You know the name the contributor uses. In
> addition, you may know their time zone and, from how quotes are
> introduced, the language in which they do most of their e-mail interaction.
>
> Research indicates that merely changing the name on a resume can affect
> the probability of a call back. Although the results could in theory be
> explained by deliberate racism and sexism, they seem more likely to be
> due to subconscious bias.
>
> 2. It is not all e-mail: Apache contributors meet at open source
> conferences, specialty technical conferences, and local gatherings. Not
> being able to participate without fearing discrimination would itself be
> discouraging.
>
> 3. Unintentional insult through stereotypes: This is a bigger risk in
> e-mail than in face-to-face interactions.
>
> I had someone on a mailing list use "try to explain X to someone's
> aunt", where X was a difficult technical point, as an example of
> futility. It invoked a stereotype of older women as lacking computer
> science comprehension. As it happens, I already had two adult nephews
> when I got my PhD in computer science. The writer would probably not
> have said what they did in a live conversation including a grey-haired
> woman.
>
> 4. Misuse of pronouns: If you know someone's preferred pronouns you know
> something about their gender, and subconscious gender discrimination
> becomes possible. If you don't, you may be making them cringe every time
> you refer to them in an e-mail.
>
> --
>
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: diversity-unsubscr...@apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: diversity-h...@apache.org
>
>

Re: Resources Wiki page?

[Craig Russell]

Hi Patricia,

+1 to the wiki page with resources.

Thanks for taking the initiative to get this started.

Craig

> On May 13, 2019, at 3:51 PM, Patricia Shanahan  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> On 5/13/2019 1:29 PM, Patricia Shanahan wrote:
>> I have started gathering some of the links people have posted for both my 
>> own studying and for use in the FAQ.
>> Would you like me to start a Resources page in the Wiki, to preserve these 
>> items?
>> 
>> TED talk on unconcious bias:
>> https://www.ted.com/talks/yassmin_abdel_magied_what_does_my_headscarf_mean_to_you\
>>  Joan Touzet wrote:
>> * Some excellent resources are below, including a final article on why
>>   "If you don't teach me, how can I learn?" is a tried-and-true
>>   derailing technique and not an honest request for assistance. I'd
>>   think that these kinds of articles would be good as a "Resources"
>>   section, which I think is generally better than a FAQ since it can
>>   be too narrow, and thus be "game theoried"/"rule lawyered" around
>>   by the determined derailer.
>>   * https://geekfeminism.wikia.org/wiki/Geek_Feminism_Wiki
>>   * https://communitymgt.fandom.com/wiki/Community_Management_Wiki
>>   *
>> https://medium.com/the-nonprofit-revolution/8-ways-people-of-color-are-tokenized-in-nonprofits-32138d0860c1
>> *
>> http://interpretereducation.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/Characteristics-of-the-Opressed_110314.pdf
>> *
>> https://www.salon.com/2015/04/14/black_people_are_not_here_to_teach_you_what_so_many_white_americans_just_cant_grasp_partner/
>>  
> 
> On 5/13/2019 3:48 PM, Niall Pemberton wrote:> The "Open Source Diversity" 
> site[1] that Shane mentioned elsethread led me
> > to the "Contributor Covenant" site[2] which also has a FAQ[3] which, in my
> > limited experience, seems pretty good and is "CC BY 4.0 License" [4]
> >
> > Niall
> >
> > [1] https://opensourcediversity.org/ 
> > [2] https://www.contributor-covenant.org/ 
> > 
> >  > >
> > [3] https://www.contributor-covenant.org/faq 
> > 
> > [4] https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/ 
> > 
> 
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: diversity-unsubscr...@apache.org 
> 
> For additional commands, e-mail: diversity-h...@apache.org 
> 
Craig L Russell
c...@apache.org

Re: [FAQ] Proto-FAQ question 1

[Joan Touzet]

I think the point was not that the FAQ needed those things, but the ASF 
at large :D and that the different way of phrasing it was intended to 
draw attention to all of those things.


-Joan

On 2019-05-13 6:45 p.m., Patricia Shanahan wrote:
I would love truly elegant documentation. However, I am neither a 
Confluence expert nor a graphic designer. As you say, it needs a community.


Perhaps people who are good at graphic design could create frameworks 
for the FAQ and Resources? Should each of them, long term, be Wiki pages 
or pages in a D web site? However it is done, it cannot depend on 
graphics. There are some readers who will only have access to whatever 
text their browser can extract.


Curating the initial content is something that seems to me to need doing 
and that I think I know how to do, so I started doing it.


On 5/13/2019 3:03 PM, Matt Sicker wrote:

This might be slightly inflammatory, but how about this: do you want
non-shitty documentation? How about graphics and logos? Maybe a nice
website? Or some helpful users for support? Hard to do without community!

On Mon, May 13, 2019 at 15:14, Patricia Shanahan  wrote:


The first and most important question is something along the lines of:

--

Q: Apache does everything by e-mail. I do not know or care about the
race, ethnicity, gender, age, weight, or any other personal
characteristics of other contributors. Why are diversity and inclusion
relevant issues for Apache?

--

Here are some elements that I think should be covered in the answer. At
this point, I am going for the big picture. Please suggest improvements
and fix errors.

--

1. Subconscious bias: You know the name the contributor uses. In
addition, you may know their time zone and, from how quotes are
introduced, the language in which they do most of their e-mail 
interaction.


Research indicates that merely changing the name on a resume can affect
the probability of a call back. Although the results could in theory be
explained by deliberate racism and sexism, they seem more likely to be
due to subconscious bias.

2. It is not all e-mail: Apache contributors meet at open source
conferences, specialty technical conferences, and local gatherings. Not
being able to participate without fearing discrimination would itself be
discouraging.

3. Unintentional insult through stereotypes: This is a bigger risk in
e-mail than in face-to-face interactions.

I had someone on a mailing list use "try to explain X to someone's
aunt", where X was a difficult technical point, as an example of
futility. It invoked a stereotype of older women as lacking computer
science comprehension. As it happens, I already had two adult nephews
when I got my PhD in computer science. The writer would probably not
have said what they did in a live conversation including a grey-haired
woman.

4. Misuse of pronouns: If you know someone's preferred pronouns you know
something about their gender, and subconscious gender discrimination
becomes possible. If you don't, you may be making them cringe every time
you refer to them in an e-mail.

--

-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: diversity-unsubscr...@apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: diversity-h...@apache.org

--

Matt Sicker 



-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: diversity-unsubscr...@apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: diversity-h...@apache.org



-
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Re: Resources Wiki page?

[Patricia Shanahan]

On 5/13/2019 1:29 PM, Patricia Shanahan wrote:
I have started gathering some of the links people have posted for both 
my own studying and for use in the FAQ.


Would you like me to start a Resources page in the Wiki, to preserve 
these items?




TED talk on unconcious bias:
https://www.ted.com/talks/yassmin_abdel_magied_what_does_my_headscarf_mean_to_you\ 



Joan Touzet wrote:

* Some excellent resources are below, including a final article on why
   "If you don't teach me, how can I learn?" is a tried-and-true
   derailing technique and not an honest request for assistance. I'd
   think that these kinds of articles would be good as a "Resources"
   section, which I think is generally better than a FAQ since it can
   be too narrow, and thus be "game theoried"/"rule lawyered" around
   by the determined derailer.

   * https://geekfeminism.wikia.org/wiki/Geek_Feminism_Wiki
   * https://communitymgt.fandom.com/wiki/Community_Management_Wiki
   *
https://medium.com/the-nonprofit-revolution/8-ways-people-of-color-are-tokenized-in-nonprofits-32138d0860c1 


   *
http://interpretereducation.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/Characteristics-of-the-Opressed_110314.pdf 


   *
https://www.salon.com/2015/04/14/black_people_are_not_here_to_teach_you_what_so_many_white_americans_just_cant_grasp_partner/ 


On 5/13/2019 3:48 PM, Niall Pemberton wrote:> The "Open Source 
Diversity" site[1] that Shane mentioned elsethread led me
> to the "Contributor Covenant" site[2] which also has a FAQ[3] which, 
in my

> limited experience, seems pretty good and is "CC BY 4.0 License" [4]
>
> Niall
>
> [1] https://opensourcediversity.org/
> [2] https://www.contributor-covenant.org/
> 
> [3] https://www.contributor-covenant.org/faq
> [4] https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/

-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: diversity-unsubscr...@apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: diversity-h...@apache.org

Re: [FAQ] Proto-FAQ question 1

[Niall Pemberton]

The "Open Source Diversity" site[1] that Shane mentioned elsethread led me
to the "Contributor Covenant" site[2] which also has a FAQ[3] which, in my
limited experience, seems pretty good and is "CC BY 4.0 License" [4]

Niall

[1] https://opensourcediversity.org/
[2] https://www.contributor-covenant.org/

[3] https://www.contributor-covenant.org/faq
[4] https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/

On Mon, May 13, 2019 at 9:14 PM Patricia Shanahan  wrote:

> The first and most important question is something along the lines of:
>
> --
>
> Q: Apache does everything by e-mail. I do not know or care about the
> race, ethnicity, gender, age, weight, or any other personal
> characteristics of other contributors. Why are diversity and inclusion
> relevant issues for Apache?
>
> --
>
> Here are some elements that I think should be covered in the answer. At
> this point, I am going for the big picture. Please suggest improvements
> and fix errors.
>
> --
>
> 1. Subconscious bias: You know the name the contributor uses. In
> addition, you may know their time zone and, from how quotes are
> introduced, the language in which they do most of their e-mail interaction.
>
> Research indicates that merely changing the name on a resume can affect
> the probability of a call back. Although the results could in theory be
> explained by deliberate racism and sexism, they seem more likely to be
> due to subconscious bias.
>
> 2. It is not all e-mail: Apache contributors meet at open source
> conferences, specialty technical conferences, and local gatherings. Not
> being able to participate without fearing discrimination would itself be
> discouraging.
>
> 3. Unintentional insult through stereotypes: This is a bigger risk in
> e-mail than in face-to-face interactions.
>
> I had someone on a mailing list use "try to explain X to someone's
> aunt", where X was a difficult technical point, as an example of
> futility. It invoked a stereotype of older women as lacking computer
> science comprehension. As it happens, I already had two adult nephews
> when I got my PhD in computer science. The writer would probably not
> have said what they did in a live conversation including a grey-haired
> woman.
>
> 4. Misuse of pronouns: If you know someone's preferred pronouns you know
> something about their gender, and subconscious gender discrimination
> becomes possible. If you don't, you may be making them cringe every time
> you refer to them in an e-mail.
>
> --
>
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: diversity-unsubscr...@apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: diversity-h...@apache.org
>
>

Re: [FAQ] Proto-FAQ question 1

[Patricia Shanahan]

I would love truly elegant documentation. However, I am neither a 
Confluence expert nor a graphic designer. As you say, it needs a community.


Perhaps people who are good at graphic design could create frameworks 
for the FAQ and Resources? Should each of them, long term, be Wiki pages 
or pages in a D web site? However it is done, it cannot depend on 
graphics. There are some readers who will only have access to whatever 
text their browser can extract.


Curating the initial content is something that seems to me to need doing 
and that I think I know how to do, so I started doing it.


On 5/13/2019 3:03 PM, Matt Sicker wrote:

This might be slightly inflammatory, but how about this: do you want
non-shitty documentation? How about graphics and logos? Maybe a nice
website? Or some helpful users for support? Hard to do without community!

On Mon, May 13, 2019 at 15:14, Patricia Shanahan  wrote:


The first and most important question is something along the lines of:

--

Q: Apache does everything by e-mail. I do not know or care about the
race, ethnicity, gender, age, weight, or any other personal
characteristics of other contributors. Why are diversity and inclusion
relevant issues for Apache?

--

Here are some elements that I think should be covered in the answer. At
this point, I am going for the big picture. Please suggest improvements
and fix errors.

--

1. Subconscious bias: You know the name the contributor uses. In
addition, you may know their time zone and, from how quotes are
introduced, the language in which they do most of their e-mail interaction.

Research indicates that merely changing the name on a resume can affect
the probability of a call back. Although the results could in theory be
explained by deliberate racism and sexism, they seem more likely to be
due to subconscious bias.

2. It is not all e-mail: Apache contributors meet at open source
conferences, specialty technical conferences, and local gatherings. Not
being able to participate without fearing discrimination would itself be
discouraging.

3. Unintentional insult through stereotypes: This is a bigger risk in
e-mail than in face-to-face interactions.

I had someone on a mailing list use "try to explain X to someone's
aunt", where X was a difficult technical point, as an example of
futility. It invoked a stereotype of older women as lacking computer
science comprehension. As it happens, I already had two adult nephews
when I got my PhD in computer science. The writer would probably not
have said what they did in a live conversation including a grey-haired
woman.

4. Misuse of pronouns: If you know someone's preferred pronouns you know
something about their gender, and subconscious gender discrimination
becomes possible. If you don't, you may be making them cringe every time
you refer to them in an e-mail.

--

-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: diversity-unsubscr...@apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: diversity-h...@apache.org

--

Matt Sicker 



-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: diversity-unsubscr...@apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: diversity-h...@apache.org

Re: [FAQ] Proto-FAQ question 1

[Daniel Gruno]

On 13/05/2019 18.03, Matt Sicker wrote:

This might be slightly inflammatory, but how about this: do you want
non-shitty documentation? How about graphics and logos? Maybe a nice
website? Or some helpful users for support? Hard to do without community!


I'd add non-shitty code to that as well ;-). Your comment touches on one 
aspect: that there is more to a project than code, and a diverse set of 
skilled people is needed.


I'd go further and say there's more to a project than *your* code, and 
you might find yourself and your code improving by allowing a larger, 
more diverse set of users and developers in...even if you end up still 
writing the bulk of the code yourself.


There are numerous examples of how people think their program works as 
intended, only to find out that *what they intended isn't what they 
truly intended*. I have seen mindbogglingly stupid realizations from 
people making blow-dryers that wouldn't work when operated by people of 
color, I've seen many color-blind people struggle with user interfaces, 
as well as a ton of unintended racism, sexism, terms of phrase that just 
do not mean that you think they mean, I've seen WAY too many examples of 
myself thinking "this is so simple, even a pigeon could operate it! I am 
so clever!", only to find that it really wasn't, and my myopic vision 
was clouding my judgment and it was horrible and I was a horrible 
developer (well, a silly one at least). If you want your project to do 
well and work beyond your own personal needs, you need to embrace 
diversity and see it for the strength it is.


I am unsure of how specific we want to be in our reasoning, but thought 
I'd share some insights into my own mistakes (and those of other people) 
anyway :)


With regards,
Daniel.



On Mon, May 13, 2019 at 15:14, Patricia Shanahan  wrote:


The first and most important question is something along the lines of:

--

Q: Apache does everything by e-mail. I do not know or care about the
race, ethnicity, gender, age, weight, or any other personal
characteristics of other contributors. Why are diversity and inclusion
relevant issues for Apache?

--

Here are some elements that I think should be covered in the answer. At
this point, I am going for the big picture. Please suggest improvements
and fix errors.

--

1. Subconscious bias: You know the name the contributor uses. In
addition, you may know their time zone and, from how quotes are
introduced, the language in which they do most of their e-mail interaction.

Research indicates that merely changing the name on a resume can affect
the probability of a call back. Although the results could in theory be
explained by deliberate racism and sexism, they seem more likely to be
due to subconscious bias.

2. It is not all e-mail: Apache contributors meet at open source
conferences, specialty technical conferences, and local gatherings. Not
being able to participate without fearing discrimination would itself be
discouraging.

3. Unintentional insult through stereotypes: This is a bigger risk in
e-mail than in face-to-face interactions.

I had someone on a mailing list use "try to explain X to someone's
aunt", where X was a difficult technical point, as an example of
futility. It invoked a stereotype of older women as lacking computer
science comprehension. As it happens, I already had two adult nephews
when I got my PhD in computer science. The writer would probably not
have said what they did in a live conversation including a grey-haired
woman.

4. Misuse of pronouns: If you know someone's preferred pronouns you know
something about their gender, and subconscious gender discrimination
becomes possible. If you don't, you may be making them cringe every time
you refer to them in an e-mail.

--

-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: diversity-unsubscr...@apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: diversity-h...@apache.org

--

Matt Sicker 




-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: diversity-unsubscr...@apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: diversity-h...@apache.org

Re: FAQ and education mailing list

[Niall Pemberton]

On Mon, May 13, 2019 at 8:45 PM Griselda Cuevas 
wrote:

> Hi everyone,
>
> I agree with Naomi that there are two "personas" who might be interested in
> our work
>
> A) the ones who want to learn
> B) the ones championing work
>

Also hopefully people in A move to B - perhaps a good reason for a single
list. I'm definitely need to learn bu I believe absolutely in D Also,
lets see if theres a troll problem first because perhaps it wont turn out
to be a big issue.

Niall "who just joined the diversity list" Pemberton


>
> For A) I'd suggest we publish a FAQs in the wiki as Joan suggested for now.
>
> I'm a +1 for Patricia to start curating the FAQ content and publishing it
> in the wiki.
>
> I'm a -0 on creating a new list for now, we don't have traction yet to do
> this. When we start to see more topics been discussed we can open spaces as
> needed.
>
> I see the point of avoiding trolls, but running away from them or removing
> them to another space is not yet the fight I choose to fight. I rather give
> us the time to deal with them publicly to set the tone of what discussions
> we want and can have.
>
>
>
>
> *From: *Ross Gardler 
> *Date: *Mon, May 13, 2019, 1:53 PM
> *To: *diversity@apache.org
>
> -0 on separate lists until we need them rather than think we will.
> >
> > -1 on diveristy-action as a name, as we are seeing people worry that D
> > means creating rules and regulations by which others must conform. This
> > creates tension and defensive behavior. The word "action"  will reinforce
> > this assumption.
> >
> > Ross
> >
> > 
> > From: Patricia Shanahan 
> > Sent: Monday, May 13, 2019 11:45 AM
> > To: diversity@apache.org
> > Subject: Re: FAQ and education mailing list
> >
> > I am going to start the FAQ discussion, using [FAQ] as tag, without
> > waiting for a new list, but will move it if and when there is a more
> > appropriate mailing list.
> >
> > Meanwhile, I have a radical alternative suggestion on mailing list
> > names. No matter what we do, I am afraid you will get the frequent
> > questions on diversity@. As an alternative split, create a list
> > diversity-action@ for those who have already decided action is
> > appropriate, and want to get on with doing it. Anything related to
> > diversity would be on-topic on diversity@. Only threads about
> > diversity-related actions would be on-topic on diversity-action@.
> >
> >
> > On 5/13/2019 11:31 AM, Naomi Slater wrote:
> > > I don't think that a [FAQ] tag solves the problem we're trying to
> address
> > > here. which, as far as I understand it, is that this list is likely to
> > see
> > > a lot of threads that may ultimately hamper the work we're trying
> > > to accomplish
> > >
> > > in a sense, we *want* to bifurcate the community. i.e., we want to be
> > able
> > > to say "this isn't an appropriate thread for this list, please take it
> to
> > > diversity-meta@" and be quite firm about shunting that stuff off
> > >
> > > we need to prioritize maintaining an (emotionally) safe and stress-free
> > > environment on this list (diversity@). and I can't over-emphasize how
> > much
> > > we put that at risk if we allow meta discussion to take place here
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Mon, 13 May 2019 at 19:50, Ross Gardler
> > >  wrote:
> > >
> > >> +1 to not another list, use subject tag "[FAQ]"
> > >>
> > >> 
> > >> From: Bertrand Delacretaz 
> > >> Sent: Monday, May 13, 2019 10:30 AM
> > >> To: diversity@apache.org
> > >> Subject: Re: FAQ and education mailing list
> > >>
> > >> Hi,
> > >>
> > >> On Sat, May 11, 2019 at 5:19 PM Patricia Shanahan 
> wrote:
> > >>> ...I don't want my FAQ-collection effort to get in the way of getting
> > >>> things done on diversity@. For that reason, I suggest creation of a
> > >>> mailing list diversity_education@a.o...
> > >>
> > >> I disagree with Yet Another List as it tends to fragment a community,
> > >> and this one is not too large.
> > >>
> > >> We can use [FAQ] in email subject lines to differentiate while keeping
> > >> others aware of what's going on.
> > >>
> > >> There are more words about this in Stefano Mazzocchi's "we love busy
> > >> lists" message that I relayed at
> > >>
> > >>
> >
> https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgrep.codeconsult.ch%2F2011%2F12%2F06%2Fstefanos-mazzocchis-busy-list-pattern%2Fdata=01%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%7C041cc0d04b454c62dd3308d6d7d32df4%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1sdata=WpF07eePGlezaw3ytwkx03e%2FoLZ%2FRT%2BFl4Hp4gmKoWI%3Dreserved=0
> > >>
> > >> -Bertrand
> > >>
> > >> -
> > >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: diversity-unsubscr...@apache.org
> > >> For additional commands, e-mail: diversity-h...@apache.org
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> >
> > -
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: diversity-unsubscr...@apache.org
> > For additional 

Re: [FAQ] Proto-FAQ question 1

[Matt Sicker]

This might be slightly inflammatory, but how about this: do you want
non-shitty documentation? How about graphics and logos? Maybe a nice
website? Or some helpful users for support? Hard to do without community!

On Mon, May 13, 2019 at 15:14, Patricia Shanahan  wrote:

> The first and most important question is something along the lines of:
>
> --
>
> Q: Apache does everything by e-mail. I do not know or care about the
> race, ethnicity, gender, age, weight, or any other personal
> characteristics of other contributors. Why are diversity and inclusion
> relevant issues for Apache?
>
> --
>
> Here are some elements that I think should be covered in the answer. At
> this point, I am going for the big picture. Please suggest improvements
> and fix errors.
>
> --
>
> 1. Subconscious bias: You know the name the contributor uses. In
> addition, you may know their time zone and, from how quotes are
> introduced, the language in which they do most of their e-mail interaction.
>
> Research indicates that merely changing the name on a resume can affect
> the probability of a call back. Although the results could in theory be
> explained by deliberate racism and sexism, they seem more likely to be
> due to subconscious bias.
>
> 2. It is not all e-mail: Apache contributors meet at open source
> conferences, specialty technical conferences, and local gatherings. Not
> being able to participate without fearing discrimination would itself be
> discouraging.
>
> 3. Unintentional insult through stereotypes: This is a bigger risk in
> e-mail than in face-to-face interactions.
>
> I had someone on a mailing list use "try to explain X to someone's
> aunt", where X was a difficult technical point, as an example of
> futility. It invoked a stereotype of older women as lacking computer
> science comprehension. As it happens, I already had two adult nephews
> when I got my PhD in computer science. The writer would probably not
> have said what they did in a live conversation including a grey-haired
> woman.
>
> 4. Misuse of pronouns: If you know someone's preferred pronouns you know
> something about their gender, and subconscious gender discrimination
> becomes possible. If you don't, you may be making them cringe every time
> you refer to them in an e-mail.
>
> --
>
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: diversity-unsubscr...@apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: diversity-h...@apache.org
>
> --
Matt Sicker 

Re: FAQ and education mailing list

[Matt Sicker]

And patience is fairly difficult when dealing with obvious concern trolls.
That has been especially annoying on members@, board@, etc, where we’re
supposed to assume good faith. However, only one side in the game takes a
loss when doing so in an iterated game. I’d rather not summarize the
depressing relationship between game theory and discourse, but I hope you
get the idea.

On Mon, May 13, 2019 at 16:29, Matt Sicker  wrote:

> As a project, it could use dev@ and user@ like typical projects. User
> list for questions, dev list for research and actions. It sort of makes
> sense.
>
> On Mon, May 13, 2019 at 16:23, Joan Touzet  wrote:
>
>> On 2019-05-13 16:37, Griselda Cuevas wrote:
>> > Teaching by preaching is what will earn us respect, credibility and
>> > authority to speak of this topic.
>>
>> Gris, can I ask what you mean by "preaching" in this context?
>>
>> For me this has a very negative connotation and feels out of place in a
>> secular organisation such as the ASF.
>>
>> -Joan
>>
>>
>> -
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: diversity-unsubscr...@apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: diversity-h...@apache.org
>>
>> --
> Matt Sicker 
>
-- 
Matt Sicker 

Re: FAQ and education mailing list

[Matt Sicker]

As a project, it could use dev@ and user@ like typical projects. User list
for questions, dev list for research and actions. It sort of makes sense.

On Mon, May 13, 2019 at 16:23, Joan Touzet  wrote:

> On 2019-05-13 16:37, Griselda Cuevas wrote:
> > Teaching by preaching is what will earn us respect, credibility and
> > authority to speak of this topic.
>
> Gris, can I ask what you mean by "preaching" in this context?
>
> For me this has a very negative connotation and feels out of place in a
> secular organisation such as the ASF.
>
> -Joan
>
>
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: diversity-unsubscr...@apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: diversity-h...@apache.org
>
> --
Matt Sicker 

Re: FAQ and education mailing list

[Joan Touzet]

On 2019-05-13 16:37, Griselda Cuevas wrote:
> Teaching by preaching is what will earn us respect, credibility and
> authority to speak of this topic.

Gris, can I ask what you mean by "preaching" in this context?

For me this has a very negative connotation and feels out of place in a
secular organisation such as the ASF.

-Joan


-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: diversity-unsubscr...@apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: diversity-h...@apache.org

Re: Resources Wiki page?

[Aizhamal Nurmamat kyzy]

+1 on the Wiki page. There were even more resources shared in multiple
threads on the topic, and it would be great if we could keep them in one
place, and be able to refer others.

Thank you tons for doing this, Patricia.

*From: *Patricia Shanahan 
*Date: *Mon, May 13, 2019 at 3:30 PM
*To: * 

I have started gathering some of the links people have posted for both
> my own studying and for use in the FAQ.
>
> Would you like me to start a Resources page in the Wiki, to preserve
> these items?
>
> 
>
> TED talk on unconcious bias:
>
> https://www.ted.com/talks/yassmin_abdel_magied_what_does_my_headscarf_mean_to_you\
>
> Joan Touzet wrote:
>
> * Some excellent resources are below, including a final article on why
>"If you don't teach me, how can I learn?" is a tried-and-true
>derailing technique and not an honest request for assistance. I'd
>think that these kinds of articles would be good as a "Resources"
>section, which I think is generally better than a FAQ since it can
>be too narrow, and thus be "game theoried"/"rule lawyered" around
>by the determined derailer.
>
>* https://geekfeminism.wikia.org/wiki/Geek_Feminism_Wiki
>* https://communitymgt.fandom.com/wiki/Community_Management_Wiki
>*
>
> https://medium.com/the-nonprofit-revolution/8-ways-people-of-color-are-tokenized-in-nonprofits-32138d0860c1
>*
>
> http://interpretereducation.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/Characteristics-of-the-Opressed_110314.pdf
>*
>
> https://www.salon.com/2015/04/14/black_people_are_not_here_to_teach_you_what_so_many_white_americans_just_cant_grasp_partner/
>
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: diversity-unsubscr...@apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: diversity-h...@apache.org
>
>

Re: Resources Wiki page?

[Griselda Cuevas]

+1

I have also shared some reading material and will be happy to share here
later today.

*From: *Patricia Shanahan 
*Date: *Mon, May 13, 2019, 3:30 PM
*To: * 

I have started gathering some of the links people have posted for both
> my own studying and for use in the FAQ.
>
> Would you like me to start a Resources page in the Wiki, to preserve
> these items?
>
> 
>
> TED talk on unconcious bias:
>
> https://www.ted.com/talks/yassmin_abdel_magied_what_does_my_headscarf_mean_to_you\
>
> Joan Touzet wrote:
>
> * Some excellent resources are below, including a final article on why
>"If you don't teach me, how can I learn?" is a tried-and-true
>derailing technique and not an honest request for assistance. I'd
>think that these kinds of articles would be good as a "Resources"
>section, which I think is generally better than a FAQ since it can
>be too narrow, and thus be "game theoried"/"rule lawyered" around
>by the determined derailer.
>
>* https://geekfeminism.wikia.org/wiki/Geek_Feminism_Wiki
>* https://communitymgt.fandom.com/wiki/Community_Management_Wiki
>*
>
> https://medium.com/the-nonprofit-revolution/8-ways-people-of-color-are-tokenized-in-nonprofits-32138d0860c1
>*
>
> http://interpretereducation.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/Characteristics-of-the-Opressed_110314.pdf
>*
>
> https://www.salon.com/2015/04/14/black_people_are_not_here_to_teach_you_what_so_many_white_americans_just_cant_grasp_partner/
>
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: diversity-unsubscr...@apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: diversity-h...@apache.org
>
>

Re: FAQ and education mailing list

[Griselda Cuevas]

I respectfully disagree on the need to split two sets of people.

We need to exercise patience regardless of our backgrounds (I am personally
very empathetic of everyone who has fought this battle and has lost or has
been hurt), I understand is not easy, but we are also not alone.

Teaching by preaching is what will earn us respect, credibility and
authority to speak of this topic.

So, I would like to invite us to consider creating a safe welcoming space
for all, even those who seek to trouble us. This means keep our convos in
just one list for now and focus on publishing the wiki page.

In any case, my preference is not to split but will support Patricia et Al
in what they decide.

P.s.
I also wanna say that I recognize that in the future we might need to open
diff comm channels, to deal with other sorts of matters, I just don't want
to do this for a reason that might go against what we want to defend.


*From: *Patricia Shanahan 
*Date: *Mon, May 13, 2019, 2:45 PM
*To: * 

I think there is already evidence that we need separate lists. We have
> two populations that need to be kept apart:
>
> 1. People who are so sick of answering the same questions time after
> time that they are unlikely to exercise patience, tact, and diplomacy
> when faced with them yet again on their working mailing list.
>
> 2. People who think their questions about D are new and would like
> them answered.
>
> We really need to get Group 2 into a mailing list that Group 1 can
> ignore. People like me who are relatively new to this can handle Group 2
> more gently, which may help the politics in the long term.
>
> Here are a couple of alternative names:
>
> diversity-doing (we are supposed to be a do-ocracy, so doing something
> about diversity should be OK)
>
> diversity-working-group (specifically for the committee and those of us
> who are trying to help them by doing some of the work).
>
>
>
> On 5/13/2019 11:53 AM, Ross Gardler wrote:
> > -0 on separate lists until we need them rather than think we will.
> >
> > -1 on diveristy-action as a name, as we are seeing people worry that D
> means creating rules and regulations by which others must conform. This
> creates tension and defensive behavior. The word "action"  will reinforce
> this assumption.
> >
> > Ross
> >
> > 
> > From: Patricia Shanahan 
> > Sent: Monday, May 13, 2019 11:45 AM
> > To: diversity@apache.org
> > Subject: Re: FAQ and education mailing list
> >
> > I am going to start the FAQ discussion, using [FAQ] as tag, without
> > waiting for a new list, but will move it if and when there is a more
> > appropriate mailing list.
> >
> > Meanwhile, I have a radical alternative suggestion on mailing list
> > names. No matter what we do, I am afraid you will get the frequent
> > questions on diversity@. As an alternative split, create a list
> > diversity-action@ for those who have already decided action is
> > appropriate, and want to get on with doing it. Anything related to
> > diversity would be on-topic on diversity@. Only threads about
> > diversity-related actions would be on-topic on diversity-action@.
> >
> >
> > On 5/13/2019 11:31 AM, Naomi Slater wrote:
> >> I don't think that a [FAQ] tag solves the problem we're trying to
> address
> >> here. which, as far as I understand it, is that this list is likely to
> see
> >> a lot of threads that may ultimately hamper the work we're trying
> >> to accomplish
> >>
> >> in a sense, we *want* to bifurcate the community. i.e., we want to be
> able
> >> to say "this isn't an appropriate thread for this list, please take it
> to
> >> diversity-meta@" and be quite firm about shunting that stuff off
> >>
> >> we need to prioritize maintaining an (emotionally) safe and stress-free
> >> environment on this list (diversity@). and I can't over-emphasize how
> much
> >> we put that at risk if we allow meta discussion to take place here
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Mon, 13 May 2019 at 19:50, Ross Gardler
> >>  wrote:
> >>
> >>> +1 to not another list, use subject tag "[FAQ]"
> >>>
> >>> 
> >>> From: Bertrand Delacretaz 
> >>> Sent: Monday, May 13, 2019 10:30 AM
> >>> To: diversity@apache.org
> >>> Subject: Re: FAQ and education mailing list
> >>>
> >>> Hi,
> >>>
> >>> On Sat, May 11, 2019 at 5:19 PM Patricia Shanahan 
> wrote:
>  ...I don't want my FAQ-collection effort to get in the way of getting
>  things done on diversity@. For that reason, I suggest creation of a
>  mailing list diversity_education@a.o...
> >>>
> >>> I disagree with Yet Another List as it tends to fragment a community,
> >>> and this one is not too large.
> >>>
> >>> We can use [FAQ] in email subject lines to differentiate while keeping
> >>> others aware of what's going on.
> >>>
> >>> There are more words about this in Stefano Mazzocchi's "we love busy
> >>> lists" message that I relayed at
> >>>
> >>>
> 

Resources Wiki page?

[Patricia Shanahan]

I have started gathering some of the links people have posted for both 
my own studying and for use in the FAQ.


Would you like me to start a Resources page in the Wiki, to preserve 
these items?




TED talk on unconcious bias:
https://www.ted.com/talks/yassmin_abdel_magied_what_does_my_headscarf_mean_to_you\

Joan Touzet wrote:

* Some excellent resources are below, including a final article on why
  "If you don't teach me, how can I learn?" is a tried-and-true
  derailing technique and not an honest request for assistance. I'd
  think that these kinds of articles would be good as a "Resources"
  section, which I think is generally better than a FAQ since it can
  be too narrow, and thus be "game theoried"/"rule lawyered" around
  by the determined derailer.

  * https://geekfeminism.wikia.org/wiki/Geek_Feminism_Wiki
  * https://communitymgt.fandom.com/wiki/Community_Management_Wiki
  *
https://medium.com/the-nonprofit-revolution/8-ways-people-of-color-are-tokenized-in-nonprofits-32138d0860c1
  *
http://interpretereducation.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/Characteristics-of-the-Opressed_110314.pdf
  *
https://www.salon.com/2015/04/14/black_people_are_not_here_to_teach_you_what_so_many_white_americans_just_cant_grasp_partner/

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[FAQ] Proto-FAQ question 1

[Patricia Shanahan]

The first and most important question is something along the lines of:

--

Q: Apache does everything by e-mail. I do not know or care about the 
race, ethnicity, gender, age, weight, or any other personal 
characteristics of other contributors. Why are diversity and inclusion 
relevant issues for Apache?


--

Here are some elements that I think should be covered in the answer. At 
this point, I am going for the big picture. Please suggest improvements 
and fix errors.


--

1. Subconscious bias: You know the name the contributor uses. In 
addition, you may know their time zone and, from how quotes are 
introduced, the language in which they do most of their e-mail interaction.


Research indicates that merely changing the name on a resume can affect 
the probability of a call back. Although the results could in theory be 
explained by deliberate racism and sexism, they seem more likely to be 
due to subconscious bias.


2. It is not all e-mail: Apache contributors meet at open source 
conferences, specialty technical conferences, and local gatherings. Not 
being able to participate without fearing discrimination would itself be 
discouraging.


3. Unintentional insult through stereotypes: This is a bigger risk in 
e-mail than in face-to-face interactions.


I had someone on a mailing list use "try to explain X to someone's 
aunt", where X was a difficult technical point, as an example of 
futility. It invoked a stereotype of older women as lacking computer 
science comprehension. As it happens, I already had two adult nephews 
when I got my PhD in computer science. The writer would probably not 
have said what they did in a live conversation including a grey-haired 
woman.


4. Misuse of pronouns: If you know someone's preferred pronouns you know 
something about their gender, and subconscious gender discrimination 
becomes possible. If you don't, you may be making them cringe every time 
you refer to them in an e-mail.


--

-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: diversity-unsubscr...@apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: diversity-h...@apache.org

Re: FAQ and education mailing list

[Patricia Shanahan]

I think there is already evidence that we need separate lists. We have 
two populations that need to be kept apart:


1. People who are so sick of answering the same questions time after 
time that they are unlikely to exercise patience, tact, and diplomacy 
when faced with them yet again on their working mailing list.


2. People who think their questions about D are new and would like 
them answered.


We really need to get Group 2 into a mailing list that Group 1 can 
ignore. People like me who are relatively new to this can handle Group 2 
more gently, which may help the politics in the long term.


Here are a couple of alternative names:

diversity-doing (we are supposed to be a do-ocracy, so doing something 
about diversity should be OK)


diversity-working-group (specifically for the committee and those of us 
who are trying to help them by doing some of the work).




On 5/13/2019 11:53 AM, Ross Gardler wrote:

-0 on separate lists until we need them rather than think we will.

-1 on diveristy-action as a name, as we are seeing people worry that D means creating 
rules and regulations by which others must conform. This creates tension and defensive 
behavior. The word "action"  will reinforce this assumption.

Ross


From: Patricia Shanahan 
Sent: Monday, May 13, 2019 11:45 AM
To: diversity@apache.org
Subject: Re: FAQ and education mailing list

I am going to start the FAQ discussion, using [FAQ] as tag, without
waiting for a new list, but will move it if and when there is a more
appropriate mailing list.

Meanwhile, I have a radical alternative suggestion on mailing list
names. No matter what we do, I am afraid you will get the frequent
questions on diversity@. As an alternative split, create a list
diversity-action@ for those who have already decided action is
appropriate, and want to get on with doing it. Anything related to
diversity would be on-topic on diversity@. Only threads about
diversity-related actions would be on-topic on diversity-action@.


On 5/13/2019 11:31 AM, Naomi Slater wrote:

I don't think that a [FAQ] tag solves the problem we're trying to address
here. which, as far as I understand it, is that this list is likely to see
a lot of threads that may ultimately hamper the work we're trying
to accomplish

in a sense, we *want* to bifurcate the community. i.e., we want to be able
to say "this isn't an appropriate thread for this list, please take it to
diversity-meta@" and be quite firm about shunting that stuff off

we need to prioritize maintaining an (emotionally) safe and stress-free
environment on this list (diversity@). and I can't over-emphasize how much
we put that at risk if we allow meta discussion to take place here



On Mon, 13 May 2019 at 19:50, Ross Gardler
 wrote:


+1 to not another list, use subject tag "[FAQ]"


From: Bertrand Delacretaz 
Sent: Monday, May 13, 2019 10:30 AM
To: diversity@apache.org
Subject: Re: FAQ and education mailing list

Hi,

On Sat, May 11, 2019 at 5:19 PM Patricia Shanahan  wrote:

...I don't want my FAQ-collection effort to get in the way of getting
things done on diversity@. For that reason, I suggest creation of a
mailing list diversity_education@a.o...


I disagree with Yet Another List as it tends to fragment a community,
and this one is not too large.

We can use [FAQ] in email subject lines to differentiate while keeping
others aware of what's going on.

There are more words about this in Stefano Mazzocchi's "we love busy
lists" message that I relayed at

https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgrep.codeconsult.ch%2F2011%2F12%2F06%2Fstefanos-mazzocchis-busy-list-pattern%2Fdata=01%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%7C041cc0d04b454c62dd3308d6d7d32df4%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1sdata=WpF07eePGlezaw3ytwkx03e%2FoLZ%2FRT%2BFl4Hp4gmKoWI%3Dreserved=0

-Bertrand

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For additional commands, e-mail: diversity-h...@apache.org






-
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For additional commands, e-mail: diversity-h...@apache.org




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Re: FAQ and education mailing list

[Griselda Cuevas]

Hi everyone,

I agree with Naomi that there are two "personas" who might be interested in
our work

A) the ones who want to learn
B) the ones championing work

For A) I'd suggest we publish a FAQs in the wiki as Joan suggested for now.

I'm a +1 for Patricia to start curating the FAQ content and publishing it
in the wiki.

I'm a -0 on creating a new list for now, we don't have traction yet to do
this. When we start to see more topics been discussed we can open spaces as
needed.

I see the point of avoiding trolls, but running away from them or removing
them to another space is not yet the fight I choose to fight. I rather give
us the time to deal with them publicly to set the tone of what discussions
we want and can have.




*From: *Ross Gardler 
*Date: *Mon, May 13, 2019, 1:53 PM
*To: *diversity@apache.org

-0 on separate lists until we need them rather than think we will.
>
> -1 on diveristy-action as a name, as we are seeing people worry that D
> means creating rules and regulations by which others must conform. This
> creates tension and defensive behavior. The word "action"  will reinforce
> this assumption.
>
> Ross
>
> 
> From: Patricia Shanahan 
> Sent: Monday, May 13, 2019 11:45 AM
> To: diversity@apache.org
> Subject: Re: FAQ and education mailing list
>
> I am going to start the FAQ discussion, using [FAQ] as tag, without
> waiting for a new list, but will move it if and when there is a more
> appropriate mailing list.
>
> Meanwhile, I have a radical alternative suggestion on mailing list
> names. No matter what we do, I am afraid you will get the frequent
> questions on diversity@. As an alternative split, create a list
> diversity-action@ for those who have already decided action is
> appropriate, and want to get on with doing it. Anything related to
> diversity would be on-topic on diversity@. Only threads about
> diversity-related actions would be on-topic on diversity-action@.
>
>
> On 5/13/2019 11:31 AM, Naomi Slater wrote:
> > I don't think that a [FAQ] tag solves the problem we're trying to address
> > here. which, as far as I understand it, is that this list is likely to
> see
> > a lot of threads that may ultimately hamper the work we're trying
> > to accomplish
> >
> > in a sense, we *want* to bifurcate the community. i.e., we want to be
> able
> > to say "this isn't an appropriate thread for this list, please take it to
> > diversity-meta@" and be quite firm about shunting that stuff off
> >
> > we need to prioritize maintaining an (emotionally) safe and stress-free
> > environment on this list (diversity@). and I can't over-emphasize how
> much
> > we put that at risk if we allow meta discussion to take place here
> >
> >
> >
> > On Mon, 13 May 2019 at 19:50, Ross Gardler
> >  wrote:
> >
> >> +1 to not another list, use subject tag "[FAQ]"
> >>
> >> 
> >> From: Bertrand Delacretaz 
> >> Sent: Monday, May 13, 2019 10:30 AM
> >> To: diversity@apache.org
> >> Subject: Re: FAQ and education mailing list
> >>
> >> Hi,
> >>
> >> On Sat, May 11, 2019 at 5:19 PM Patricia Shanahan  wrote:
> >>> ...I don't want my FAQ-collection effort to get in the way of getting
> >>> things done on diversity@. For that reason, I suggest creation of a
> >>> mailing list diversity_education@a.o...
> >>
> >> I disagree with Yet Another List as it tends to fragment a community,
> >> and this one is not too large.
> >>
> >> We can use [FAQ] in email subject lines to differentiate while keeping
> >> others aware of what's going on.
> >>
> >> There are more words about this in Stefano Mazzocchi's "we love busy
> >> lists" message that I relayed at
> >>
> >>
> https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgrep.codeconsult.ch%2F2011%2F12%2F06%2Fstefanos-mazzocchis-busy-list-pattern%2Fdata=01%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%7C041cc0d04b454c62dd3308d6d7d32df4%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1sdata=WpF07eePGlezaw3ytwkx03e%2FoLZ%2FRT%2BFl4Hp4gmKoWI%3Dreserved=0
> >>
> >> -Bertrand
> >>
> >> -
> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: diversity-unsubscr...@apache.org
> >> For additional commands, e-mail: diversity-h...@apache.org
> >>
> >>
> >
>
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: diversity-unsubscr...@apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: diversity-h...@apache.org
>
>

Re: FAQ and education mailing list

[Ross Gardler]

-0 on separate lists until we need them rather than think we will.

-1 on diveristy-action as a name, as we are seeing people worry that D means 
creating rules and regulations by which others must conform. This creates 
tension and defensive behavior. The word "action"  will reinforce this 
assumption.

Ross


From: Patricia Shanahan 
Sent: Monday, May 13, 2019 11:45 AM
To: diversity@apache.org
Subject: Re: FAQ and education mailing list

I am going to start the FAQ discussion, using [FAQ] as tag, without
waiting for a new list, but will move it if and when there is a more
appropriate mailing list.

Meanwhile, I have a radical alternative suggestion on mailing list
names. No matter what we do, I am afraid you will get the frequent
questions on diversity@. As an alternative split, create a list
diversity-action@ for those who have already decided action is
appropriate, and want to get on with doing it. Anything related to
diversity would be on-topic on diversity@. Only threads about
diversity-related actions would be on-topic on diversity-action@.


On 5/13/2019 11:31 AM, Naomi Slater wrote:
> I don't think that a [FAQ] tag solves the problem we're trying to address
> here. which, as far as I understand it, is that this list is likely to see
> a lot of threads that may ultimately hamper the work we're trying
> to accomplish
>
> in a sense, we *want* to bifurcate the community. i.e., we want to be able
> to say "this isn't an appropriate thread for this list, please take it to
> diversity-meta@" and be quite firm about shunting that stuff off
>
> we need to prioritize maintaining an (emotionally) safe and stress-free
> environment on this list (diversity@). and I can't over-emphasize how much
> we put that at risk if we allow meta discussion to take place here
>
>
>
> On Mon, 13 May 2019 at 19:50, Ross Gardler
>  wrote:
>
>> +1 to not another list, use subject tag "[FAQ]"
>>
>> 
>> From: Bertrand Delacretaz 
>> Sent: Monday, May 13, 2019 10:30 AM
>> To: diversity@apache.org
>> Subject: Re: FAQ and education mailing list
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> On Sat, May 11, 2019 at 5:19 PM Patricia Shanahan  wrote:
>>> ...I don't want my FAQ-collection effort to get in the way of getting
>>> things done on diversity@. For that reason, I suggest creation of a
>>> mailing list diversity_education@a.o...
>>
>> I disagree with Yet Another List as it tends to fragment a community,
>> and this one is not too large.
>>
>> We can use [FAQ] in email subject lines to differentiate while keeping
>> others aware of what's going on.
>>
>> There are more words about this in Stefano Mazzocchi's "we love busy
>> lists" message that I relayed at
>>
>> https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgrep.codeconsult.ch%2F2011%2F12%2F06%2Fstefanos-mazzocchis-busy-list-pattern%2Fdata=01%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%7C041cc0d04b454c62dd3308d6d7d32df4%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1sdata=WpF07eePGlezaw3ytwkx03e%2FoLZ%2FRT%2BFl4Hp4gmKoWI%3Dreserved=0
>>
>> -Bertrand
>>
>> -
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: diversity-unsubscr...@apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: diversity-h...@apache.org
>>
>>
>

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Re: Outreachy Internships can Improve Diversity at The ASF

[Ross Gardler]

I'd like to take this opportunity to introduce @Carol 
Smith who joined the list at my request.

Carol is a day job colleague, different teams, Carol is in the Open Source 
Programs Office, I'm in Azure, but we cross often when it comes to broad open 
source strategy. She used to run GSoC inside Google and is a director of the 
OSI. Most importantly for this thread Carol is active around the Outreachy 
activities, though I confess to not knowing details of her engagement there.

I asked her to join us both from a sharing experiences perspective but also to 
specifically help us understand how we might work with Outreachy.

Carol, please read the thread below and let us know your initial thoughts.

Ross


From: Matt Sicker 
Sent: Sunday, May 12, 2019 8:28 AM
To: diversity@apache.org
Subject: Re: Outreachy Internships can Improve Diversity at The ASF

I’ve done Outreachy once so far as a mentor (doing it again starting in a
week or so) in the Jenkins project, though it was a project using an Apache
library (Log4j Audit). Back then, I had figured that Apache couldn’t
participate directly due to Outreachy’s funding requirements. However, if a
third party company were to handle the funding, I think that we could
participate.

On Sun, May 12, 2019 at 07:47, Awasum Yannick  wrote:

> Hi All,
>
> I have watched from the shadows as the discussion on diversity at Apache
> has evolved over the past few weeks.
>
> This made me to ask important questions like what initiatives are out there
> doing great work to promote diversity? GSoC, Outreachy and the new Google
> Seasons of Docs(GSoD) initiatives come to mind.
>
> Shane, on another thread mentioned Outreachy and other efforts.
>
> I keep asking myself why the ASF never participated in Outreachy? learn
> more about Outreachy here:  
> https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.outreachy.orgdata=01%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%7Cb1847c861f4744437d6f08d6d6ee8abb%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1sdata=JjDJTLHQPzarVN4bxO%2BJG7mkZziuS4c86FNOphwS9XU%3Dreserved=0
> 
>  and
> https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FOutreachydata=01%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%7Cb1847c861f4744437d6f08d6d6ee8abb%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1sdata=1mVEdlH8ZmR1wJZOFOnQO4ai9qq9DvPG6e3j%2B8ckipk%3Dreserved=0
>
> Was it a problem of a lack of volunteers? I am willing to lead efforts if
> and when the community decides to participate in Outreachy.
>
> Is it a lack of Projects? I see alot of issues which can be transformed
> into Outreachy code and documentation projects.
>
> is it a lack of Funds? I have no idea If the Foundation can sponsor
> Outreachy but I know when there is a will, there is a way.
>
> How does Outreachy Fund their program? Here is a detailed explanation on
> how funding works over there: 
> https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.outreachy.org%2Fsponsor%2Fdata=01%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%7Cb1847c861f4744437d6f08d6d6ee8abb%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1sdata=bZjqhYAyh2mHHniYQb8ENbR3tQYET2N0VIgVaj1Pt4U%3Dreserved=0
>
> How will Outreachy help us achieve more diversity? few things come to mind:
> I am Black and since I was introduced to Open Source, most people/students
> in my local community in Cameroon get inspired to contribute( those are
> more under represented people flowing into Open Source and Apache
> Foundations in particular). Except that is a problem, I dont see why we
> should not participate in outreachy.
> Giving and empowering a lady for a example will inspire ambition for others
> like them. This over time builds. I cannot overemphasis what compound
> interest can do here over time.
>
> Do we need our own Diversity Internships? Thats something we could discuss.
>
> This will lead us having well balanced, diversed and inclusive projects at
> the Apache Foundation.
>
>
> Thanks.
> Awasum Yannick
>
--
Matt Sicker 

Re: FAQ and education mailing list

[Rich Bowen]

On 5/13/19 2:37 PM, Naomi Slater wrote:

apologies for the second follow up. two things:

1) it's not really even about bifuricating "the community". it's about the
fact that there are two groups of people here: the people who want to get
D work done, and the people who want to learn about D work (or
challenge that work)

2) perhaps diversity-learn@ is a better name


Possibly the bifurcation should go the other way. ie, diversity@ is the 
one that the masses will go to, because it's the simple name, and 
diversity-actually-get-stuff-done@ is the one where we *do* stuff. :D



-- Rich "Only half kidding" Bowen

--
Rich Bowen - rbo...@rcbowen.com
http://rcbowen.com/
@rbowen

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Re: FAQ and education mailing list

[Patricia Shanahan]

I am going to start the FAQ discussion, using [FAQ] as tag, without 
waiting for a new list, but will move it if and when there is a more 
appropriate mailing list.


Meanwhile, I have a radical alternative suggestion on mailing list 
names. No matter what we do, I am afraid you will get the frequent 
questions on diversity@. As an alternative split, create a list 
diversity-action@ for those who have already decided action is 
appropriate, and want to get on with doing it. Anything related to 
diversity would be on-topic on diversity@. Only threads about 
diversity-related actions would be on-topic on diversity-action@.



On 5/13/2019 11:31 AM, Naomi Slater wrote:

I don't think that a [FAQ] tag solves the problem we're trying to address
here. which, as far as I understand it, is that this list is likely to see
a lot of threads that may ultimately hamper the work we're trying
to accomplish

in a sense, we *want* to bifurcate the community. i.e., we want to be able
to say "this isn't an appropriate thread for this list, please take it to
diversity-meta@" and be quite firm about shunting that stuff off

we need to prioritize maintaining an (emotionally) safe and stress-free
environment on this list (diversity@). and I can't over-emphasize how much
we put that at risk if we allow meta discussion to take place here



On Mon, 13 May 2019 at 19:50, Ross Gardler
 wrote:


+1 to not another list, use subject tag "[FAQ]"


From: Bertrand Delacretaz 
Sent: Monday, May 13, 2019 10:30 AM
To: diversity@apache.org
Subject: Re: FAQ and education mailing list

Hi,

On Sat, May 11, 2019 at 5:19 PM Patricia Shanahan  wrote:

...I don't want my FAQ-collection effort to get in the way of getting
things done on diversity@. For that reason, I suggest creation of a
mailing list diversity_education@a.o...


I disagree with Yet Another List as it tends to fragment a community,
and this one is not too large.

We can use [FAQ] in email subject lines to differentiate while keeping
others aware of what's going on.

There are more words about this in Stefano Mazzocchi's "we love busy
lists" message that I relayed at

https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgrep.codeconsult.ch%2F2011%2F12%2F06%2Fstefanos-mazzocchis-busy-list-pattern%2Fdata=01%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%7C8e638b48142c4064e6ed08d6d7c8b3b8%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1sdata=hVX9mykVdeGGGfwkyXWIevEbZlFH9Of9F414I6buS38%3Dreserved=0

-Bertrand

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For additional commands, e-mail: diversity-h...@apache.org






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Re: FAQ and education mailing list

[Naomi Slater]

apologies for the second follow up. two things:

1) it's not really even about bifuricating "the community". it's about the
fact that there are two groups of people here: the people who want to get
D work done, and the people who want to learn about D work (or
challenge that work)

2) perhaps diversity-learn@ is a better name

On Mon, 13 May 2019 at 20:32, Naomi Slater  wrote:

> erm,  "this isn't an appropriate list for this thread, ..."
>
> On Mon, 13 May 2019 at 20:31, Naomi Slater  wrote:
>
>> I don't think that a [FAQ] tag solves the problem we're trying to address
>> here. which, as far as I understand it, is that this list is likely to see
>> a lot of threads that may ultimately hamper the work we're trying
>> to accomplish
>>
>> in a sense, we *want* to bifurcate the community. i.e., we want to be
>> able to say "this isn't an appropriate thread for this list, please take it
>> to diversity-meta@" and be quite firm about shunting that stuff off
>>
>> we need to prioritize maintaining an (emotionally) safe and stress-free
>> environment on this list (diversity@). and I can't over-emphasize how
>> much we put that at risk if we allow meta discussion to take place here
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, 13 May 2019 at 19:50, Ross Gardler
>>  wrote:
>>
>>> +1 to not another list, use subject tag "[FAQ]"
>>>
>>> 
>>> From: Bertrand Delacretaz 
>>> Sent: Monday, May 13, 2019 10:30 AM
>>> To: diversity@apache.org
>>> Subject: Re: FAQ and education mailing list
>>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> On Sat, May 11, 2019 at 5:19 PM Patricia Shanahan  wrote:
>>> > ...I don't want my FAQ-collection effort to get in the way of getting
>>> > things done on diversity@. For that reason, I suggest creation of a
>>> > mailing list diversity_education@a.o...
>>>
>>> I disagree with Yet Another List as it tends to fragment a community,
>>> and this one is not too large.
>>>
>>> We can use [FAQ] in email subject lines to differentiate while keeping
>>> others aware of what's going on.
>>>
>>> There are more words about this in Stefano Mazzocchi's "we love busy
>>> lists" message that I relayed at
>>>
>>> https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgrep.codeconsult.ch%2F2011%2F12%2F06%2Fstefanos-mazzocchis-busy-list-pattern%2Fdata=01%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%7C8e638b48142c4064e6ed08d6d7c8b3b8%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1sdata=hVX9mykVdeGGGfwkyXWIevEbZlFH9Of9F414I6buS38%3Dreserved=0
>>>
>>> -Bertrand
>>>
>>> -
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: diversity-unsubscr...@apache.org
>>> For additional commands, e-mail: diversity-h...@apache.org
>>>
>>>

Re: FAQ and education mailing list

[Naomi Slater]

erm,  "this isn't an appropriate list for this thread, ..."

On Mon, 13 May 2019 at 20:31, Naomi Slater  wrote:

> I don't think that a [FAQ] tag solves the problem we're trying to address
> here. which, as far as I understand it, is that this list is likely to see
> a lot of threads that may ultimately hamper the work we're trying
> to accomplish
>
> in a sense, we *want* to bifurcate the community. i.e., we want to be able
> to say "this isn't an appropriate thread for this list, please take it to
> diversity-meta@" and be quite firm about shunting that stuff off
>
> we need to prioritize maintaining an (emotionally) safe and stress-free
> environment on this list (diversity@). and I can't over-emphasize how
> much we put that at risk if we allow meta discussion to take place here
>
>
>
> On Mon, 13 May 2019 at 19:50, Ross Gardler
>  wrote:
>
>> +1 to not another list, use subject tag "[FAQ]"
>>
>> 
>> From: Bertrand Delacretaz 
>> Sent: Monday, May 13, 2019 10:30 AM
>> To: diversity@apache.org
>> Subject: Re: FAQ and education mailing list
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> On Sat, May 11, 2019 at 5:19 PM Patricia Shanahan  wrote:
>> > ...I don't want my FAQ-collection effort to get in the way of getting
>> > things done on diversity@. For that reason, I suggest creation of a
>> > mailing list diversity_education@a.o...
>>
>> I disagree with Yet Another List as it tends to fragment a community,
>> and this one is not too large.
>>
>> We can use [FAQ] in email subject lines to differentiate while keeping
>> others aware of what's going on.
>>
>> There are more words about this in Stefano Mazzocchi's "we love busy
>> lists" message that I relayed at
>>
>> https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgrep.codeconsult.ch%2F2011%2F12%2F06%2Fstefanos-mazzocchis-busy-list-pattern%2Fdata=01%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%7C8e638b48142c4064e6ed08d6d7c8b3b8%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1sdata=hVX9mykVdeGGGfwkyXWIevEbZlFH9Of9F414I6buS38%3Dreserved=0
>>
>> -Bertrand
>>
>> -
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: diversity-unsubscr...@apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: diversity-h...@apache.org
>>
>>

Re: FAQ and education mailing list

[Naomi Slater]

I don't think that a [FAQ] tag solves the problem we're trying to address
here. which, as far as I understand it, is that this list is likely to see
a lot of threads that may ultimately hamper the work we're trying
to accomplish

in a sense, we *want* to bifurcate the community. i.e., we want to be able
to say "this isn't an appropriate thread for this list, please take it to
diversity-meta@" and be quite firm about shunting that stuff off

we need to prioritize maintaining an (emotionally) safe and stress-free
environment on this list (diversity@). and I can't over-emphasize how much
we put that at risk if we allow meta discussion to take place here



On Mon, 13 May 2019 at 19:50, Ross Gardler
 wrote:

> +1 to not another list, use subject tag "[FAQ]"
>
> 
> From: Bertrand Delacretaz 
> Sent: Monday, May 13, 2019 10:30 AM
> To: diversity@apache.org
> Subject: Re: FAQ and education mailing list
>
> Hi,
>
> On Sat, May 11, 2019 at 5:19 PM Patricia Shanahan  wrote:
> > ...I don't want my FAQ-collection effort to get in the way of getting
> > things done on diversity@. For that reason, I suggest creation of a
> > mailing list diversity_education@a.o...
>
> I disagree with Yet Another List as it tends to fragment a community,
> and this one is not too large.
>
> We can use [FAQ] in email subject lines to differentiate while keeping
> others aware of what's going on.
>
> There are more words about this in Stefano Mazzocchi's "we love busy
> lists" message that I relayed at
>
> https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgrep.codeconsult.ch%2F2011%2F12%2F06%2Fstefanos-mazzocchis-busy-list-pattern%2Fdata=01%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%7C8e638b48142c4064e6ed08d6d7c8b3b8%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1sdata=hVX9mykVdeGGGfwkyXWIevEbZlFH9Of9F414I6buS38%3Dreserved=0
>
> -Bertrand
>
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: diversity-unsubscr...@apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: diversity-h...@apache.org
>
>

Re: FAQ and education mailing list

[Ross Gardler]

+1 to not another list, use subject tag "[FAQ]"


From: Bertrand Delacretaz 
Sent: Monday, May 13, 2019 10:30 AM
To: diversity@apache.org
Subject: Re: FAQ and education mailing list

Hi,

On Sat, May 11, 2019 at 5:19 PM Patricia Shanahan  wrote:
> ...I don't want my FAQ-collection effort to get in the way of getting
> things done on diversity@. For that reason, I suggest creation of a
> mailing list diversity_education@a.o...

I disagree with Yet Another List as it tends to fragment a community,
and this one is not too large.

We can use [FAQ] in email subject lines to differentiate while keeping
others aware of what's going on.

There are more words about this in Stefano Mazzocchi's "we love busy
lists" message that I relayed at
https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgrep.codeconsult.ch%2F2011%2F12%2F06%2Fstefanos-mazzocchis-busy-list-pattern%2Fdata=01%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%7C8e638b48142c4064e6ed08d6d7c8b3b8%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1sdata=hVX9mykVdeGGGfwkyXWIevEbZlFH9Of9F414I6buS38%3Dreserved=0

-Bertrand

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Re: FAQ and education mailing list

[Bertrand Delacretaz]

Hi,

On Sat, May 11, 2019 at 5:19 PM Patricia Shanahan  wrote:
> ...I don't want my FAQ-collection effort to get in the way of getting
> things done on diversity@. For that reason, I suggest creation of a
> mailing list diversity_education@a.o...

I disagree with Yet Another List as it tends to fragment a community,
and this one is not too large.

We can use [FAQ] in email subject lines to differentiate while keeping
others aware of what's going on.

There are more words about this in Stefano Mazzocchi's "we love busy
lists" message that I relayed at
https://grep.codeconsult.ch/2011/12/06/stefanos-mazzocchis-busy-list-pattern/

-Bertrand

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Re: Apache people, Native Americans

[Rich Bowen]

I would also encourage people who are interested in *why* this is 
emotionally charged to read the book Chasing Shadows by Shelley Bowen 
Hatfield (no relation, as far as I know) about the complicated and often 
brutal history between the US Government, and the Apache and Yaqui 
people along the southern border of the USA in the years 1876-1911.


The book is out of print, and might be hard to find, but was truly eye 
opening.


Although, it looks like it's available here - 
https://www.amazon.com/Chasing-Shadows-Indians-States-Mexico-1876-1911/dp/0826318533/ 
- for a reasonable price.


On 5/13/19 12:21 PM, Joan Touzet wrote:

It depends which sub-group you are talking about, and whether you are
referring to current or former relationships.

The Jicarilla Apache in New Mexico actively refer to themselves as a
Nation, as do the Yavapai-Apache Nation, the San Carlos Apache Nation
and the Fort McDowell Yavapai Nation. Many other tribes do not use the
term Nation, or are not referred to as a Nation by state or federal
authorities (though they, themselves, may use the term).

Some of this has resulted from being "downgraded" through the erosion of
US treaty promises over the years, so the term is both nebulous and
emotionally charged. For instance, some (US) historians use the term
Nation only to refer to pre-forced removal Apache Nations. Legally,
however, the terms nation, tribe, community, Rancheria and band have
been used interchangeably in Indian treaties and statutes.[1]

The fact that the term "Apache" applies to multiple subgroups of
different sizes will make it difficult for us to get buy-in from all of
them, and makes it unclear whether or not it makes sense to try.

The fact also appears to be that we evolved from "a patchy server" to
"Apache", and then co-opted the feather logo and colour scheme as our
own, without asking and getting clear permission from even a subset
first. That's a choice we have to live with today.

On a more positive note, the San Carlos Apache Chamber of Commerce
displays our logo and a link to our website on their website:

 http://www.sancarlosapache.com/Apache_Chamber_of_Commerce.htm

I wouldn't call this outright endorsement, but I'd say it's at least a
sign that there is no animosity. Let's not pick the scab off of this wound.

-Joan "far too many Native American books on the shelf" Touzet

[1]: Pevar, Stephen L. The Rights of Indians and Tribes. Fourth ed.
Oxford: Oxford UP, 2012.

On 2019-05-13 10:41, Matt Sicker wrote:

According to Wikipedia, Apache are made up of several tribes. It doesn’t
sound like an individual tribe, so “nation” sort of makes sense, though I’m
not familiar with their specific terminology.

On Mon, May 13, 2019 at 07:11, Rich Bowen  wrote:




On 5/13/19 12:11 AM, Kenneth Knowles wrote:

"subscribe"

This comes up for me pretty much every time I explain my work/life to
someone who has not yet heard of the ASF (if they don't mention it, that

is

sort of worse). Reading Mark's comment I had the same question as Rich. I
would very much like to know the answer and the details.


I'm intrigued that it comes up every time (it almost never does, for me)
and also that you think that it's bad when it doesn't (Why?).

If this is something you consider important, I'd encourage you to take
the references posted by Mark and run with them. Do the research. Ask
Brian. See what you can find out.


On 5/10/19 4:22 PM, Mark Thomas wrote:

In the private archives I found:

- A reference that at OSCON 09 a member of the Apache Nation politely
mentioned that they  should be referred to as the Apache Nation and
not a tribe.


Which is the opposite of the terminology used on their official website,
https://mescaleroapachetribe.com/

The word "tribe" is one that I avoid, because people do feel that it has
negative connotations. However, consistently over the years, I've seen
that the people who are offended by it are, for the most part, not the
people being referred to.

--
Rich Bowen - rbo...@rcbowen.com
http://rcbowen.com/
@rbowen

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Matt Sicker 




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--
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@rbowen

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Re: FAQ and education mailing list

[Joan Touzet]

Couple of thoughts - sorry for being brief, and really not trying to
bikeshed here:

* We need someone to shepherd this, thank you Patricia for volunteering!

  Generally my opinion is that the work of building the content should
  fall to those who have learned, not the explainers, who are the ones
  burdened with the heaviest emotional load dealing with the concern
  trolls. Naomi pointed this out in another thread. To that end I saw
  what looked like volunteers in Rich and/or Ross. ;)

* A protected page on our wiki would be a good place to house this. Or,
  something under git where we can do pull requests and reviews on
  GitHub. The problem with the latter is the potential as a vector for
  drive-by vandalism and abuse. Either way, it should be a sub-set of
  pages or resources so their content doesn't overwhelm needs of our
  wiki/git repos for our actual business.

* Having Ezmlm point to the wiki / git page would be a good idea. I'd
  worry about putting the full text into the autoresponse from
  diversity-help; it might feel like being brow-beaten for a newcomer.

* Some excellent resources are below, including a final article on why
  "If you don't teach me, how can I learn?" is a tried-and-true
  derailing technique and not an honest request for assistance. I'd
  think that these kinds of articles would be good as a "Resources"
  section, which I think is generally better than a FAQ since it can
  be too narrow, and thus be "game theoried"/"rule lawyered" around
  by the determined derailer.

  * https://geekfeminism.wikia.org/wiki/Geek_Feminism_Wiki
  * https://communitymgt.fandom.com/wiki/Community_Management_Wiki
  *
https://medium.com/the-nonprofit-revolution/8-ways-people-of-color-are-tokenized-in-nonprofits-32138d0860c1
  *
http://interpretereducation.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/Characteristics-of-the-Opressed_110314.pdf
  *
https://www.salon.com/2015/04/14/black_people_are_not_here_to_teach_you_what_so_many_white_americans_just_cant_grasp_partner/

-Joan "will there ever be a last time to answer some questions" Touzet

On 2019-05-13 10:35, Matt Sicker wrote:
> I’m not sure how the technical feature works, but mailing lists can set up
> an FAQ. Ezmlm allows you to send a message to diversity-h...@apache.org
> which could theoretically be used here.
> 
> On Mon, May 13, 2019 at 08:18, Patricia Shanahan  wrote:
> 
>> I picked the name without much thought, so it can almost certainly be
>> improved.
>>
>> On 5/13/2019 6:04 AM, Naomi Slater wrote:
>>> I think this is a great idea
>>>
>>> I hope this isn't bikeshedding, but perhaps we should choose a different
>>> name. I say this because I'd like to be able to direct someone to this
>>> other list without it sounding like I'm telling them they need to "get an
>>> education"
>>>
>>> perhaps diversity-meta@ (because it would be a place to
>>> discuss/question/enquire about the diversity effort at Apache, in
>> contrast
>>> with this list, which is a place to actually carry out the diversity
>> effort
>>> at Apache)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sat, 11 May 2019 at 17:19, Patricia Shanahan  wrote:
>>>
   From my experience with technical newsgroups and mailing lists,
 including those intended for experts, a FAQ can be invaluable in dealing
 with the questions the long term participants have seen far too often.
 Craig Russell has suggested having one for our diversity effort. I am
 sure there are other somewhat relevant FAQ's out there, and I will look
 for them, but I think we need something tuned to ASF's mailing list and
 do-ocracy culture.

 When someone shows up with an old, familiar, question there would be no
 need to argue about whether they are a troll or just ignorant. You
 simply refer them to the FAQ and then ignore them unless and until they
 ask a question it does not answer, in a way that shows they have read
 and considered it.

 Even given my medical situation, I think I could at least make a start
 on organizing a FAQ. For that, I need two types of input: links to good
 self-education sources, and sample questions-and-answers.

 As I have already pointed out, I am not myself an expert. Of course, I
 will read referenced material to improve my own education. I got started
 in the computer industry at a time when people accepted women in
 technical leadership roles. By 1980, I was project leader for the
 technical core of NCR's VRX operating system, and it was too late for
 anyone to tell me I didn't belong.

 Unfortunately, the best sample questions will be exactly the ones many
 of you have been dealing with for years. The more likely a question is
 to be the opening salvo of troll visit, the more important it will be to
 answer it in the FAQ. I hope some of the experts will be willing to
 contribute their experience.

 I don't want my FAQ-collection effort to get in the way of getting
 things 

Re: Apache people, Native Americans

[Joan Touzet]

It depends which sub-group you are talking about, and whether you are
referring to current or former relationships.

The Jicarilla Apache in New Mexico actively refer to themselves as a
Nation, as do the Yavapai-Apache Nation, the San Carlos Apache Nation
and the Fort McDowell Yavapai Nation. Many other tribes do not use the
term Nation, or are not referred to as a Nation by state or federal
authorities (though they, themselves, may use the term).

Some of this has resulted from being "downgraded" through the erosion of
US treaty promises over the years, so the term is both nebulous and
emotionally charged. For instance, some (US) historians use the term
Nation only to refer to pre-forced removal Apache Nations. Legally,
however, the terms nation, tribe, community, Rancheria and band have
been used interchangeably in Indian treaties and statutes.[1]

The fact that the term "Apache" applies to multiple subgroups of
different sizes will make it difficult for us to get buy-in from all of
them, and makes it unclear whether or not it makes sense to try.

The fact also appears to be that we evolved from "a patchy server" to
"Apache", and then co-opted the feather logo and colour scheme as our
own, without asking and getting clear permission from even a subset
first. That's a choice we have to live with today.

On a more positive note, the San Carlos Apache Chamber of Commerce
displays our logo and a link to our website on their website:

http://www.sancarlosapache.com/Apache_Chamber_of_Commerce.htm

I wouldn't call this outright endorsement, but I'd say it's at least a
sign that there is no animosity. Let's not pick the scab off of this wound.

-Joan "far too many Native American books on the shelf" Touzet

[1]: Pevar, Stephen L. The Rights of Indians and Tribes. Fourth ed.
Oxford: Oxford UP, 2012.

On 2019-05-13 10:41, Matt Sicker wrote:
> According to Wikipedia, Apache are made up of several tribes. It doesn’t
> sound like an individual tribe, so “nation” sort of makes sense, though I’m
> not familiar with their specific terminology.
> 
> On Mon, May 13, 2019 at 07:11, Rich Bowen  wrote:
> 
>>
>>
>> On 5/13/19 12:11 AM, Kenneth Knowles wrote:
>>> "subscribe"
>>>
>>> This comes up for me pretty much every time I explain my work/life to
>>> someone who has not yet heard of the ASF (if they don't mention it, that
>> is
>>> sort of worse). Reading Mark's comment I had the same question as Rich. I
>>> would very much like to know the answer and the details.
>>
>> I'm intrigued that it comes up every time (it almost never does, for me)
>> and also that you think that it's bad when it doesn't (Why?).
>>
>> If this is something you consider important, I'd encourage you to take
>> the references posted by Mark and run with them. Do the research. Ask
>> Brian. See what you can find out.
>>
>>> On 5/10/19 4:22 PM, Mark Thomas wrote:
>> In the private archives I found:
>>
>> - A reference that at OSCON 09 a member of the Apache Nation politely
>>mentioned that they  should be referred to as the Apache Nation and
>>not a tribe.
>>
>> Which is the opposite of the terminology used on their official website,
>> https://mescaleroapachetribe.com/
>>
>> The word "tribe" is one that I avoid, because people do feel that it has
>> negative connotations. However, consistently over the years, I've seen
>> that the people who are offended by it are, for the most part, not the
>> people being referred to.
>>
>> --
>> Rich Bowen - rbo...@rcbowen.com
>> http://rcbowen.com/
>> @rbowen
>>
>> -
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: diversity-unsubscr...@apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: diversity-h...@apache.org
>>
>> --
> Matt Sicker 
> 


-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: diversity-unsubscr...@apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: diversity-h...@apache.org

Re: Apache people, Native Americans

[Matt Sicker]

According to Wikipedia, Apache are made up of several tribes. It doesn’t
sound like an individual tribe, so “nation” sort of makes sense, though I’m
not familiar with their specific terminology.

On Mon, May 13, 2019 at 07:11, Rich Bowen  wrote:

>
>
> On 5/13/19 12:11 AM, Kenneth Knowles wrote:
> > "subscribe"
> >
> > This comes up for me pretty much every time I explain my work/life to
> > someone who has not yet heard of the ASF (if they don't mention it, that
> is
> > sort of worse). Reading Mark's comment I had the same question as Rich. I
> > would very much like to know the answer and the details.
>
> I'm intrigued that it comes up every time (it almost never does, for me)
> and also that you think that it's bad when it doesn't (Why?).
>
> If this is something you consider important, I'd encourage you to take
> the references posted by Mark and run with them. Do the research. Ask
> Brian. See what you can find out.
>
> > On 5/10/19 4:22 PM, Mark Thomas wrote:
>  In the private archives I found:
> 
>  - A reference that at OSCON 09 a member of the Apache Nation politely
> mentioned that they  should be referred to as the Apache Nation and
> not a tribe.
>
> Which is the opposite of the terminology used on their official website,
> https://mescaleroapachetribe.com/
>
> The word "tribe" is one that I avoid, because people do feel that it has
> negative connotations. However, consistently over the years, I've seen
> that the people who are offended by it are, for the most part, not the
> people being referred to.
>
> --
> Rich Bowen - rbo...@rcbowen.com
> http://rcbowen.com/
> @rbowen
>
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: diversity-unsubscr...@apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: diversity-h...@apache.org
>
> --
Matt Sicker 

Re: FAQ and education mailing list

[Matt Sicker]

I’m not sure how the technical feature works, but mailing lists can set up
an FAQ. Ezmlm allows you to send a message to diversity-h...@apache.org
which could theoretically be used here.

On Mon, May 13, 2019 at 08:18, Patricia Shanahan  wrote:

> I picked the name without much thought, so it can almost certainly be
> improved.
>
> On 5/13/2019 6:04 AM, Naomi Slater wrote:
> > I think this is a great idea
> >
> > I hope this isn't bikeshedding, but perhaps we should choose a different
> > name. I say this because I'd like to be able to direct someone to this
> > other list without it sounding like I'm telling them they need to "get an
> > education"
> >
> > perhaps diversity-meta@ (because it would be a place to
> > discuss/question/enquire about the diversity effort at Apache, in
> contrast
> > with this list, which is a place to actually carry out the diversity
> effort
> > at Apache)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sat, 11 May 2019 at 17:19, Patricia Shanahan  wrote:
> >
> >>   From my experience with technical newsgroups and mailing lists,
> >> including those intended for experts, a FAQ can be invaluable in dealing
> >> with the questions the long term participants have seen far too often.
> >> Craig Russell has suggested having one for our diversity effort. I am
> >> sure there are other somewhat relevant FAQ's out there, and I will look
> >> for them, but I think we need something tuned to ASF's mailing list and
> >> do-ocracy culture.
> >>
> >> When someone shows up with an old, familiar, question there would be no
> >> need to argue about whether they are a troll or just ignorant. You
> >> simply refer them to the FAQ and then ignore them unless and until they
> >> ask a question it does not answer, in a way that shows they have read
> >> and considered it.
> >>
> >> Even given my medical situation, I think I could at least make a start
> >> on organizing a FAQ. For that, I need two types of input: links to good
> >> self-education sources, and sample questions-and-answers.
> >>
> >> As I have already pointed out, I am not myself an expert. Of course, I
> >> will read referenced material to improve my own education. I got started
> >> in the computer industry at a time when people accepted women in
> >> technical leadership roles. By 1980, I was project leader for the
> >> technical core of NCR's VRX operating system, and it was too late for
> >> anyone to tell me I didn't belong.
> >>
> >> Unfortunately, the best sample questions will be exactly the ones many
> >> of you have been dealing with for years. The more likely a question is
> >> to be the opening salvo of troll visit, the more important it will be to
> >> answer it in the FAQ. I hope some of the experts will be willing to
> >> contribute their experience.
> >>
> >> I don't want my FAQ-collection effort to get in the way of getting
> >> things done on diversity@. For that reason, I suggest creation of a
> >> mailing list diversity_education@a.o. Its purpose would be to educate.
> >> People who are willing to contribute to the FAQ, and to answering basic
> >> questions, would subscribe. Those who have had enough of educating
> >> others would carry on using diversity@ to get the job done.
> >>
> >> -
> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: diversity-unsubscr...@apache.org
> >> For additional commands, e-mail: diversity-h...@apache.org
> >>
> >>
> >
>
> ---
> This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
> https://www.avg.com
>
>
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: diversity-unsubscr...@apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: diversity-h...@apache.org
>
> --
Matt Sicker 

Re: FAQ and education mailing list

[Patricia Shanahan]

I picked the name without much thought, so it can almost certainly be 
improved.


On 5/13/2019 6:04 AM, Naomi Slater wrote:

I think this is a great idea

I hope this isn't bikeshedding, but perhaps we should choose a different
name. I say this because I'd like to be able to direct someone to this
other list without it sounding like I'm telling them they need to "get an
education"

perhaps diversity-meta@ (because it would be a place to
discuss/question/enquire about the diversity effort at Apache, in contrast
with this list, which is a place to actually carry out the diversity effort
at Apache)





On Sat, 11 May 2019 at 17:19, Patricia Shanahan  wrote:


  From my experience with technical newsgroups and mailing lists,
including those intended for experts, a FAQ can be invaluable in dealing
with the questions the long term participants have seen far too often.
Craig Russell has suggested having one for our diversity effort. I am
sure there are other somewhat relevant FAQ's out there, and I will look
for them, but I think we need something tuned to ASF's mailing list and
do-ocracy culture.

When someone shows up with an old, familiar, question there would be no
need to argue about whether they are a troll or just ignorant. You
simply refer them to the FAQ and then ignore them unless and until they
ask a question it does not answer, in a way that shows they have read
and considered it.

Even given my medical situation, I think I could at least make a start
on organizing a FAQ. For that, I need two types of input: links to good
self-education sources, and sample questions-and-answers.

As I have already pointed out, I am not myself an expert. Of course, I
will read referenced material to improve my own education. I got started
in the computer industry at a time when people accepted women in
technical leadership roles. By 1980, I was project leader for the
technical core of NCR's VRX operating system, and it was too late for
anyone to tell me I didn't belong.

Unfortunately, the best sample questions will be exactly the ones many
of you have been dealing with for years. The more likely a question is
to be the opening salvo of troll visit, the more important it will be to
answer it in the FAQ. I hope some of the experts will be willing to
contribute their experience.

I don't want my FAQ-collection effort to get in the way of getting
things done on diversity@. For that reason, I suggest creation of a
mailing list diversity_education@a.o. Its purpose would be to educate.
People who are willing to contribute to the FAQ, and to answering basic
questions, would subscribe. Those who have had enough of educating
others would carry on using diversity@ to get the job done.

-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: diversity-unsubscr...@apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: diversity-h...@apache.org






---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com


-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: diversity-unsubscr...@apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: diversity-h...@apache.org

Re: FAQ and education mailing list

[Naomi Slater]

I think this is a great idea

I hope this isn't bikeshedding, but perhaps we should choose a different
name. I say this because I'd like to be able to direct someone to this
other list without it sounding like I'm telling them they need to "get an
education"

perhaps diversity-meta@ (because it would be a place to
discuss/question/enquire about the diversity effort at Apache, in contrast
with this list, which is a place to actually carry out the diversity effort
at Apache)





On Sat, 11 May 2019 at 17:19, Patricia Shanahan  wrote:

>  From my experience with technical newsgroups and mailing lists,
> including those intended for experts, a FAQ can be invaluable in dealing
> with the questions the long term participants have seen far too often.
> Craig Russell has suggested having one for our diversity effort. I am
> sure there are other somewhat relevant FAQ's out there, and I will look
> for them, but I think we need something tuned to ASF's mailing list and
> do-ocracy culture.
>
> When someone shows up with an old, familiar, question there would be no
> need to argue about whether they are a troll or just ignorant. You
> simply refer them to the FAQ and then ignore them unless and until they
> ask a question it does not answer, in a way that shows they have read
> and considered it.
>
> Even given my medical situation, I think I could at least make a start
> on organizing a FAQ. For that, I need two types of input: links to good
> self-education sources, and sample questions-and-answers.
>
> As I have already pointed out, I am not myself an expert. Of course, I
> will read referenced material to improve my own education. I got started
> in the computer industry at a time when people accepted women in
> technical leadership roles. By 1980, I was project leader for the
> technical core of NCR's VRX operating system, and it was too late for
> anyone to tell me I didn't belong.
>
> Unfortunately, the best sample questions will be exactly the ones many
> of you have been dealing with for years. The more likely a question is
> to be the opening salvo of troll visit, the more important it will be to
> answer it in the FAQ. I hope some of the experts will be willing to
> contribute their experience.
>
> I don't want my FAQ-collection effort to get in the way of getting
> things done on diversity@. For that reason, I suggest creation of a
> mailing list diversity_education@a.o. Its purpose would be to educate.
> People who are willing to contribute to the FAQ, and to answering basic
> questions, would subscribe. Those who have had enough of educating
> others would carry on using diversity@ to get the job done.
>
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: diversity-unsubscr...@apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: diversity-h...@apache.org
>
>

Re: Apache people, Native Americans

[Rich Bowen]

On 5/13/19 12:11 AM, Kenneth Knowles wrote:

"subscribe"

This comes up for me pretty much every time I explain my work/life to
someone who has not yet heard of the ASF (if they don't mention it, that is
sort of worse). Reading Mark's comment I had the same question as Rich. I
would very much like to know the answer and the details.


I'm intrigued that it comes up every time (it almost never does, for me) 
and also that you think that it's bad when it doesn't (Why?).


If this is something you consider important, I'd encourage you to take 
the references posted by Mark and run with them. Do the research. Ask 
Brian. See what you can find out.



On 5/10/19 4:22 PM, Mark Thomas wrote:

In the private archives I found:

- A reference that at OSCON 09 a member of the Apache Nation politely
   mentioned that they  should be referred to as the Apache Nation and
   not a tribe.


Which is the opposite of the terminology used on their official website, 
https://mescaleroapachetribe.com/


The word "tribe" is one that I avoid, because people do feel that it has 
negative connotations. However, consistently over the years, I've seen 
that the people who are offended by it are, for the most part, not the 
people being referred to.


--
Rich Bowen - rbo...@rcbowen.com
http://rcbowen.com/
@rbowen

-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: diversity-unsubscr...@apache.org
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