Re: [DNG] An alternative to renaming [was Re: Proposed change in behaviour for ascii: eudev net.ifnames]

[Rick Moen]

Quoting Alessandro Selli (alessandrose...@linux.com):

>   This was true in thousands of other people's experience.

You are a very amusing person.  Thank you for that.

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Re: [DNG] An alternative to renaming [was Re: Proposed change in behaviour for ascii: eudev net.ifnames]

[Adam Borowski]

On Sat, Aug 26, 2017 at 12:45:27PM -0400, Hendrik Boom wrote:
> On Sat, Aug 26, 2017 at 02:34:36PM +0200, Alessandro Selli wrote:
> > On Wed, 23 Aug 2017 at 23:23:47 +0200 (CEST)
> > k...@aspodata.se wrote:
> > 
> > > Manually creating xorg.conf is required if you e.g. has a serial 
> > > (rs232) mouse.
> > 
> >   Who does?  Really, who today uses a mouse based on a technology that went
> > out of production some 15 years ago and uses a connector that is absent on
> > most computers (and all laptops AFAICT) produced after 2009?
> 
> My home server still has a mouse and a keyboard with one of those 
> ancient round plugs.

That's PS/2, not RS232.

-- 
⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀ 
⣾⠁⢰⠒⠀⣿⡁ Vat kind uf sufficiently advanced technology iz dis!?
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ -- Genghis Ht'rok'din
⠈⠳⣄ 
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Re: [DNG] An alternative to renaming [was Re: Proposed change in behaviour for ascii: eudev net.ifnames]

[Alessandro Selli]

On Sat, 26 Aug 2017 at 09:03:04 -0700
Rick Moen  wrote:

> Quoting Alessandro Selli (alessandrose...@linux.com):
>
>> 1) they did not work (a lot of the times);  
>
> That was not true in my long and varied experience.

  This was true in thousands of other people's experience.

> (I have run installfests for eight or nine Linux and BSD
> user groups in the San Francisco Bay Area from the middle 1990s to the
> present day.)

  Oh yeah, and Kudzu was great, and devfs was the best virtual device
filesystem ever...

>> 2) Xorg self-configuration works (most of the times).  
>
> This cannot be true, as this is before Xorg existed.

  Did I write: "XFree86 self-configuration works (most of the times)"?
  No, I wrote: "Xorg self-configuration works (most of the times)".
  XFree86 configuration was static, messy and fragile.  One of the best
improvement on it by Xorg is the latter's capability to self-configure
reliably.  You cannot deny this by stating that in XFree86 times Xorg did not
exit.  It's like stating that the Airbus 380 navigation system cannot be said
to be better than the A300's because the A380 is equipped with a GNSS which
did not exist on the A300.


Alessandro
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Re: [DNG] An alternative to renaming [was Re: Proposed change in behaviour for ascii: eudev net.ifnames]

[Hendrik Boom]

On Sat, Aug 26, 2017 at 02:34:36PM +0200, Alessandro Selli wrote:
> On Wed, 23 Aug 2017 at 23:23:47 +0200 (CEST)
> k...@aspodata.se wrote:
> 
> > Manually creating xorg.conf is required if you e.g. has a serial 
> > (rs232) mouse.
> 
>   Who does?  Really, who today uses a mouse based on a technology that went
> out of production some 15 years ago and uses a connector that is absent on
> most computers (and all laptops AFAICT) produced after 2009?

My home server still has a mouse and a keyboard with one of those 
ancient round plugs.  One of the nice things about this server is that 
it does not have the Intel management engine.

-- hendrik
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Re: [DNG] An alternative to renaming [was Re: Proposed change in behaviour for ascii: eudev net.ifnames]

[Rick Moen]

Quoting Alessandro Selli (alessandrose...@linux.com):

> 1) they did not work (a lot of the times);

That was not true in my long and varied experience.
(I have run installfests for eight or nine Linux and BSD
user groups in the San Francisco Bay Area from the middle 1990s to the
present day.)

> 2) Xorg self-configuration works (most of the times).

This cannot be true, as this is before Xorg existed.


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Re: [DNG] An alternative to renaming [was Re: Proposed change in behaviour for ascii: eudev net.ifnames]

[Alessandro Selli]

On Thu, 24 Aug 2017 at 22:46:28 +0200
Antony Stone  wrote:

[...]

> (and, for what it's worth, my preference is to stick with ethX as a 
> default,

  My favourite choice for the default behaviour, too.


Alessandro
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Re: [DNG] An alternative to renaming [was Re: Proposed change in behaviour for ascii: eudev net.ifnames]

[Alessandro Selli]

On Wed, 23 Aug 2017 at 23:23:47 +0200 (CEST)
k...@aspodata.se wrote:

> Manually creating xorg.conf is required if you e.g. has a serial 
> (rs232) mouse.

  Who does?  Really, who today uses a mouse based on a technology that went
out of production some 15 years ago and uses a connector that is absent on
most computers (and all laptops AFAICT) produced after 2009?

> It is also req. if you want to be able to use the 
> serverlayout feature, say if you want to be able to start X with a 
> screen dimention of 800x640 for testing without a virtual screen size
> or having several X servers running on different vt's with different
> (non-virtual) screen sizes.

  All of this you can do with xrandr on the command line.  And of course
the major WMs have their our GUI tools to do the same.

> ...
>>   Not having to login as root to manually configure Xorg just to change
>> video card or monitor was one of the best and most wanted improvements in
>> Linux in the past 10 years.  Manual Xorg configuration is so tedious, time
>> consuming and error prone that requiring users to be capable of it is just
>> crazy.  
>> This xorg.conf:
>
> # cat /etc/X11/xorg.conf
> Section "ServerFlags"
> Option "AutoAddDevices" "off"
> EndSection
>
> works like a charm on my laptop, everything is autodetected by X.

  "Works for me" is not a good way to go when one readies a general-purpose
distribution that is to work on any combination of hardware available on the
target platform.

[...]

> There is absolutely no need at all to fiddle with xorg.conf for a
> vidio card or monitor change unless you want a non-default setup.

  Yes, and you do not need to drink if you're not thirsty, and you do not
need to drive your car if you do not need to go anywhere.

> For a monitor, you only need to specify a monitor section in xorg.conf
> if your monitor doesn't support edid, i.e. for ancient monitors.

  Which means you do *not* need xorg.conf since Xorg was made capable of
self-configuring on most hardware.  I agree.  So what?  It still holds that
"Not having to login as root to manually configure Xorg just to change video
card or monitor was one of the best and most wanted improvements in Linux in
the past 10 years."

> I don't see what udev actually provides of value for the X server.

  I never argued in udev's favour.


Alessandro
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Re: [DNG] An alternative to renaming [was Re: Proposed change in behaviour for ascii: eudev net.ifnames]

[Alessandro Selli]

On Wed, 23 Aug 2017 at 14:32:39 -0700
Rick Moen  wrote:

>  Red Hat's
> easy/GUI X configuration tool was called Xconfigurator.[1]  I vaguely
> recall that SUSE and Debian, among many others, had various other ones
> with a variety of names.

  They were all dropped for the same reasons:

1) they did not work (a lot of the times);
2) Xorg self-configuration works (most of the times).


Alessandro

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Re: [DNG] An alternative to renaming [was Re: Proposed change in behaviour for ascii: eudev net.ifnames]

[Rick Moen]

Quoting Steve Litt (sl...@troubleshooters.com):

> To take it a step further, for gosh sakes, write for clarity. Quote
> what's relevant to your reply, including what person said it, and
> delete all quoted material not relevant to your reply. If you're
> interleave posting, please please PLEASE delete all quoted text below
> your final response so readers don't waste time looking for yet another
> of your responses.
[...]

Sally Hambridge's (then a network engineer for Intel Online Services)
RFC 1855 is 22 years old, but is still timely!
https://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc1855.txt

One (IMO) respect-worthy modern attempt to reassess and update it:
http://www.whoishostingthis.com/resources/netiquette/#rfc1855

There have been numerous attempts at helping people interact fruitfully
with online communities, but Ms. Hambridge's is difficult to top.

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Re: [DNG] An alternative to renaming [was Re: Proposed change in behaviour for ascii: eudev net.ifnames]

[Steve Litt]

On Fri, 25 Aug 2017 00:35:13 +0200
Svante Signell  wrote:


> Hi Edward,
> 
> Can you please quote the relevant parts of the mail you are replying
> to, especially the name of the person who sent that mail. Please ;)

Yes! And I wish everybody would do what Svante says. And it's not just
Edward, by any means.

To take it a step further, for gosh sakes, write for clarity. Quote
what's relevant to your reply, including what person said it, and
delete all quoted material not relevant to your reply. If you're
interleave posting, please please PLEASE delete all quoted text below
your final response so readers don't waste time looking for yet another
of your responses.

Interleave posting can increase clarity and reduce the need for you to
be microscopically explicit. Use it! If you simply must print one
massive reply at the very bottom, please be sure to be explicit about
what each and every one of your points refers to, and please delete
all quoted text not related to your reply.

And for those of you who insist on top-posting, which breaks long
many-poster sequences of very clear interleave posting, please at least
have the decency not to use words like "it", "them", "him", but instead
write out the whole concept, as in "the /etc/runit directory", "the
services started by runit", or "Peter Johnson", respectively. Who
wants to parse the entire bottom of an email trying to find out what
someone meant by "it", "them" or "him"? And please remember, top-posting
does not excuse you from deleting irrelevant quoted text while leaving
relevant quoted text in place.

Top-posting with no quoted text deletion is outstanding for business
transactions intended to be a contemporaneous log of what happened
(CYA, in other words). But it's a discussion-muddling obfuscation in a
multi-person brainstorming session, which is what we're supposed to
have on technical mailing lists.

Thanks,

SteveT
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Re: [DNG] An alternative to renaming [was Re: Proposed change in behaviour for ascii: eudev net.ifnames]

[Svante Signell]

On Thu, 2017-08-24 at 22:16 +0200, Edward Bartolo wrote:
> Option 3 will break simple-netaid both the frontend and the backend.
> Option 1 may not need any code changing.
> 
> What is the advantage if any of naming an interface eth0of1? Why eth0
> is appended with an 'of1'? Why not just use eth0, eth1, , ethN
> instead?

Hi Edward,

Can you please quote the relevant parts of the mail you are replying
to, especially the name of the person who sent that mail. Please ;)

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Re: [DNG] An alternative to renaming [was Re: Proposed change in behaviour for ascii: eudev net.ifnames]

[Didier Kryn]

Le 24/08/2017 à 17:45, Rick Moen a écrit :

(To my knowledge, I'm the only Rick who's recently posted.) Just a
point:  I've steered clear of said off-topic philosophical discussion,
and spoken only on the subthreads about X configuration and about
fvwm/SLiM.


Rick,

Excuse me if I've included you by mistake. Actually I've seen these 
days on several threads, severall technically skilled persons exchanging 
philosophical or semantic POVs which went pretty far from what regards 
computers. I may have confused people and threads :-)


Didier



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Re: [DNG] An alternative to renaming [was Re: Proposed change in behaviour for ascii: eudev net.ifnames]

[calmstorm]

On 08/24/2017 09:34 AM, Edward Bartolo wrote:
> Quote by Narcis Garcia: "...Volkswagen...soviet...assassination...mom"
>
> ???
> Sorry, I don't read minds and have no intention to waste my time
> trying to decipher what you could have written in a way that could be
> understood immediately.
>
> Sorry for my rude reply but writing illegible replies is also rude.
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I have no idea what this is, but it sounds entertaining and random, but
also non-essential for this mailing list...
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Re: [DNG] An alternative to renaming [was Re: Proposed change in behaviour for ascii: eudev net.ifnames]

[Antony Stone]

On Thursday 24 August 2017 at 22:04:40, Steve Litt wrote:

> On Thu, 24 Aug 2017 10:28:55 +0200
> 
> Antony Stone  wrote:
> > 
> > 3. To those who have been posting it - please stop, and get back
> > on-topic about making Devuan a better distribution.
> 
> Ummm, no. Part of making a better Devuan distribution is deciding
> intelligently whether to:
> 
> 1) Call the interface enpo22f4gtx
> 2) Call the interface eth0
> 3) Have the kernel call it enpo22f4gtx and have a user utility deduce
>it to something like $eth0of1

Agreed.

That has absolutely nothing to do with Soviet censorship, Volkwagen starter 
motors, Polish politics, and whatever else has been going on in these threads 
over the past few days.

So, please keep talking about ethernet interface names - I agree that that's 
important (and, for what it's worth, my preference is to stick with ethX as a 
default, but provide the option to use the MAC address instead as a UUID 
equivalent)


Antony.

-- 
This sentence contains exacly three erors.

   Please reply to the list;
 please *don't* CC me.
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Re: [DNG] An alternative to renaming [was Re: Proposed change in behaviour for ascii: eudev net.ifnames]

[Edward Bartolo]

Option 3 will break simple-netaid both the frontend and the backend.
Option 1 may not need any code changing.

What is the advantage if any of naming an interface eth0of1? Why eth0
is appended with an 'of1'? Why not just use eth0, eth1, , ethN
instead?

-- 
If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough.
(Albert Einstein)
If you cannot make abstructions about details you do not understand
the concepts underlying them.
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Re: [DNG] An alternative to renaming [was Re: Proposed change in behaviour for ascii: eudev net.ifnames]

[Steve Litt]

On Thu, 24 Aug 2017 10:28:55 +0200
Antony Stone  wrote:

> On Thursday 24 August 2017 at 10:24:56, Narcis Garcia wrote:
> 
> > ...Wolkswagen Beetle ...
> > ...Volkswagens of various models
> > ...mom's 1967 1300 Beetle...
> > ...Soviet Politburo pictures "evolve"...
> > ...trump-may-not-survive-his-term-but-the-assassination-complex-will...
> > ...Italian history is quite different from Polish history...
> > 
> > What are you talking about?
> > It's difficult for non-native english speaking people to feel sense
> > to this kind of threads in a list supposed to be about Devuan
> > GNU+Linux  
> 
> 1. Well said.
> 
> 2. You don't have to be a non-native English speaker to realise that
> a lot of this off-topic drivel does not make sense.
> 
> 3. To those who have been posting it - please stop, and get back
> on-topic about making Devuan a better distribution.

Ummm, no. Part of making a better Devuan distribution is deciding
intelligently whether to:

1) Call the interface enpo22f4gtx
2) Call the interface eth0
3) Have the kernel call it enpo22f4gtx and have a user utility deduce
   it to something like $eth0of1

I'd vote for #3, but would be happy with any of the above. I'm not sure
how VW, Trump or Poland snuck into the thread, but it's about Devuan.
 
SteveT

Steve Litt 
July 2017 featured book: Quit Joblessness: Start Your Own Business
http://www.troubleshooters.com/startbiz
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Re: [DNG] An alternative to renaming [was Re: Proposed change in behaviour for ascii: eudev net.ifnames]

[Rick Moen]

Quoting Harald Arnesen (har...@skogtun.org):

> Red Hat 7 was released in 2000, according to Wikipedia.

Hey, you're right, thanks!  That'll teach me to post from memory when
I'm jet-lagged.

So, Linux distributions have had even-easier X configurator tools 
since at the very latest 2000.  I'm reasonably certain they predated
that by some significant number of years, be could not say how early
exactly without research.

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Re: [DNG] An alternative to renaming [was Re: Proposed change in behaviour for ascii: eudev net.ifnames]

[Rick Moen]

Quoting Didier Kryn (k...@in2p3.fr):

> Alessandro, Narcis, Rick,
> 
> You have plenty of technical skills and usefull ideas. Could you
> please concentrate on these. Since this site is also about KISS, I
> bet some people (like me) would really like to know how to get the
> best of Xorg with a KISS hotplugger (Mdev), and what the limitations
> would be.
> 
> The philosophical discussion on electrical starters is going
> pretty off-topic, don't you think.

(To my knowledge, I'm the only Rick who's recently posted.) Just a
point:  I've steered clear of said off-topic philosophical discussion,
and spoken only on the subthreads about X configuration and about
fvwm/SLiM.

Thank you for your concern about topicality, which I share.  (I have
occasionally misjudged, and then tried to do better.)

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Re: [DNG] An alternative to renaming [was Re: Proposed change in behaviour for ascii: eudev net.ifnames]

[Narcis Garcia]

El 24/08/17 a les 11:33, Edward Bartolo ha escrit:
> Quote by Karl Hammar: "There are several drawback useing the old
> transformer + rectifier design. Of main consern is the current spikes
> seen on the power grid when the diodes starts to conduct.  Your power
> supplier don't like them and that is why we have PFC to make the unit
> behave more like a resistor to the power grid."
> 
> If PFC stands for Power Factor Correction, using a switching power
> supply doesn't free one from using rectification of the mains to power
> the switching transistors. The rectifier diodes will also have current
> spikes and we are essentially back to square one. With 3 phase power
> rectification the current spikes can be greatly reduced as the
> rectified voltage output from the rectifier without a smoothing
> capacitor never goes below ~85% of peak.
> 
> If voltage rectification was such a problem, all devices/appliances
> that have to use a DC voltage source would be at blame, which is
> clearly not the case. Power Factor Correction enters the equation when
> loads having a substantial inductive component exist. This is the case
> when certain types of motors are used. Three phase motors do not
> produce a significant inductive load if they are well designed. This
> is also true of transformers given their primaries are well designed
> to keep the magnetising currents at a minimum.
> 
> For voltage rectification Power Factor Correction (PFC) is not an
> issue. If this is a new issue that older text books about
> electricity/electronics did not discuss, please direct me to your
> sources of information.
> ___
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> 

...Volkswagen...soviet...assassination...mom
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Re: [DNG] An alternative to renaming [was Re: Proposed change in behaviour for ascii: eudev net.ifnames]

[Edward Bartolo]

Thanks for the reference. It was a very interesting reading. I really
appreciated it.

-- 
If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough.
(Albert Einstein)
If you cannot make abstructions about details you do not understand
the concepts underlying them.
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Re: [DNG] An alternative to renaming [was Re: Proposed change in behaviour for ascii: eudev net.ifnames]

[karl]

Edward Bartolo:
...
> For voltage rectification Power Factor Correction (PFC) is not an
> issue.
...

For ac input, diodes gives you awful ac input currents, see e.g
fig. 2 in:

 http://www.vishay.com/docs/88868/anpfc.pdf

which is (somewhat) corrected by PFC. It has nothing to do with a
switch mode power supply per se, the problem is in the rectifier.

Any further questions will answered off-list.

Regards,
/Karl Hammar

---
Aspö Data
Lilla Aspö 148
S-742 94 Östhammar
Sweden
+46 173 140 57


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Re: [DNG] An alternative to renaming [was Re: Proposed change in behaviour for ascii: eudev net.ifnames]

[Harald Arnesen]

Rick Moen [2017-08-23 23:32]:
> Quoting Harald Arnesen (har...@skogtun.org):
> 
>> >> Manual Xorg configuration is so tedious, time consuming and error
>> >> prone that requiring users to be capable of it is just crazy.
>> > Au contraire:  Even if you had nothing besides Xorg (or previously
>> > XFree86) itself, in almost all cases you could just do 'Xorg -configure
>> >> /etc/X11/Xorg.conf' and nothing else.  However, pretty nearly all
>> > distributions provided even-easier X configurator tools.
>> 
>> When? Not when I started using Linux.
> 
> At the very latest by RHL7, which was released in 1994.  Red Hat's
> easy/GUI X configuration tool was called Xconfigurator.[1]  I vaguely
> recall that SUSE and Debian, among many others, had various other ones
> with a variety of names.

Red Hat 7 was released in 2000, according to Wikipedia.

I remember using Red Hat 3.0.3 in 1996 and 4.2 (the last using libc5)
for a time in 1997-98. They had an X configuration tool that didn't work
for me.

They also shipped the Metro-X server, which also didn't work on my machine.
-- 
Hilsen Harald

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Re: [DNG] An alternative to renaming [was Re: Proposed change in behaviour for ascii: eudev net.ifnames]

[Arnt Karlsen]

On Thu, 24 Aug 2017 10:18:37 +0200, Alessandro wrote in message 
<20170824101837.255a0b19@ayu>:

> > ..you missed my "e.g.", and my point. ;o)  
> 
>   Which is a moot example, as systemd can be done away with.

..precisely like yourself.  EOD.

-- 
..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen
...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry...
  Scenarios always come in sets of three: 
  best case, worst case, and just in case.
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Re: [DNG] An alternative to renaming [was Re: Proposed change in behaviour for ascii: eudev net.ifnames]

[Didier Kryn]

Le 24/08/2017 à 10:18, Alessandro Selli a écrit :

On Wed, 23 Aug 2017 at 23:18:19 +0200
Arnt Karlsen  wrote:


On Wed, 23 Aug 2017 18:00:12 +0200, Alessandro wrote in message
<20170823180012.327dbdc8@ayu>:


On Wed, 23 Aug 2017 at 14:22:34 +0200
Arnt Karlsen  wrote:


On Wed, 23 Aug 2017 09:34:49 +0200, Alessandro wrote in message
:
  

On 22/08/2017 at 13:36, Arnt Karlsen wrote:

On Tue, 22 Aug 2017 03:38:50 +0200, Adam wrote in message
<20170822013850.ute5cf7ycrlvc...@angband.pl>:
 

There are cases when the old way had its merit -- but here, we
have an equivalent of a car that needs to be started with a
hand-crank.

..you may have missed "Brave New World" by Aldous Huxley and
George Orwell's "1984", or at the very least, the main point of
these 2 books and your own nation's history, in these Trumpian
times.

..an hand-crank car keeps you in control of what's going on around
you, if you pay attention.

   Why do you think an electric motor cannot do the same?

..straw man, an electric motor cannot do the same without
AI taking control away from you.

   Please let me know what AI did the Wolkswagen Beetle have?

..never heard of those, I've only seen Volkswagens of various models.

   So you agree that stating that "an electric motor cannot do the same without
AI taking control away from you" is BS as you can and do have electric
powered actuators without any AI.


..only thing I'm aware of in mom's 1967 1300 Beetle, is the presence of

[...]

(tons of useless, OT crap removed)


  Your new shiny AI car may decide to kill you to
save e.g. "a more worthy person" from something really, really
bad, e.g. Trumpian embarrasment, e.g. because you pay attention to
what's going on around you. ;oD

   First off, an electric engine starter does not have to have any
AI built-in.  The XX century auto industry proved it.

..and the XXI'st is now disproving it.

   Present day technology cannot change the past.  Car electric
starters did not have any AI, they relied completely on the human who
turned the key to work.

..you never seen Soviet Politburo pictures "evolve"? ;o)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship_of_images_in_the_Soviet_Union#Censorship_of_historical_photographs

   Mind you, editing pictures is not changing the past.  The example you quote
proves my point: how do you know those pictures were edited?  Because they do
not reflect what actually happened.


..similar discoveries can be found on checking e.g. 9/11 stories on WTC
online against pre-9/11 encyclopedia entries on WTC of the kind printed
on paper before W. was "elected" president in 2000 and that can be
found in brick-n-mortar libraries. ;o)


   Secondly, AI is not inherently a user alien technology, no more
that computers are per se a tools against the users.  It all
depends on who is in charge.

..precisely my point.

   Do you intend to live without computers?
Your choice.

..not really, not a viable long term solution.

   So, why are you making all this fuss?  Just to play the Luddite without any
intention to live according to your philosophies?


As there is software that puts the user in charge (Free/OS
software) and software that deprives the user of any freedom
(proprietary software), so there is AI that just serves users and
AI that controls them.

..e.g. systemd is capable of "getting it done" both ways. ;o)

   My home PCs do not have it.

..you missed my "e.g.", and my point. ;o)

   Which is a moot example, as systemd can be done away with.


If this could not be, then your only option would be forsaking
IT altogether.

..maybe.  Eventually, that too will fail, we mere mortals risk
getting targeted "as Islamists" for _not_ carrying cell phones:
https://theintercept.com/2014/02/10/the-nsas-secret-role/
https://theintercept.com/drone-papers/firing-blind/
https://theintercept.com/2017/08/21/trump-may-not-survive-his-term-but-the-assassination-complex-will/

   I did not read anywhere people without cellphones are/will be
targeted as islamists, and I fail to understand how you could think
those articles and the facts they relate have anything to do with AI

..try read them again. ;o)

   So, you too cannot point out any relevant line.


Slowly, so you can test them against your own beliefs.

   It's not a matter of beliefs, it's just that as a matter of fact those
pieces do not state anywhere that "people without cellphones are/will be
targeted as islamists".  Quite the opposite in fact, as they show how US
agencies track islamists through their cellphones, which shows that they
actually do make use of them.


..thenafter, chances are you may see part of the quite
likely unlikeable future that I can see coming.

   To be able to "see the future" one ought to be capable of seeing and
understanding the present at the very least.

[...]


and car starters.

..not much.  And, I see Italian history is quite different from
Polish history, which may be 

Re: [DNG] An alternative to renaming [was Re: Proposed change in behaviour for ascii: eudev net.ifnames]

[Antony Stone]

On Thursday 24 August 2017 at 10:24:56, Narcis Garcia wrote:

> ...Wolkswagen Beetle ...
> ...Volkswagens of various models
> ...mom's 1967 1300 Beetle...
> ...Soviet Politburo pictures "evolve"...
> ...trump-may-not-survive-his-term-but-the-assassination-complex-will...
> ...Italian history is quite different from Polish history...
> 
> What are you talking about?
> It's difficult for non-native english speaking people to feel sense to
> this kind of threads in a list supposed to be about Devuan GNU+Linux

1. Well said.

2. You don't have to be a non-native English speaker to realise that a lot of 
this off-topic drivel does not make sense.

3. To those who have been posting it - please stop, and get back on-topic 
about making Devuan a better distribution.


Antony.

-- 
Why is "dylexia" so difficult to spell, and why can I never remember "aphasia" 
when I want to?

   Please reply to the list;
 please *don't* CC me.
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Re: [DNG] An alternative to renaming [was Re: Proposed change in behaviour for ascii: eudev net.ifnames]

[Narcis Garcia]

...Wolkswagen Beetle ...
...Volkswagens of various models
...mom's 1967 1300 Beetle...
...Soviet Politburo pictures "evolve"...
...trump-may-not-survive-his-term-but-the-assassination-complex-will...
...Italian history is quite different from Polish history...

What are you talking about?
It's difficult for non-native english speaking people to feel sense to
this kind of threads in a list supposed to be about Devuan GNU+Linux

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Re: [DNG] An alternative to renaming [was Re: Proposed change in behaviour for ascii: eudev net.ifnames]

[Alessandro Selli]

On Wed, 23 Aug 2017 at 23:18:19 +0200
Arnt Karlsen  wrote:

> On Wed, 23 Aug 2017 18:00:12 +0200, Alessandro wrote in message 
> <20170823180012.327dbdc8@ayu>:
>
>> On Wed, 23 Aug 2017 at 14:22:34 +0200
>> Arnt Karlsen  wrote:
>>
>>> On Wed, 23 Aug 2017 09:34:49 +0200, Alessandro wrote in message 
>>> :
>>>  
 On 22/08/2017 at 13:36, Arnt Karlsen wrote:
> On Tue, 22 Aug 2017 03:38:50 +0200, Adam wrote in message 
> <20170822013850.ute5cf7ycrlvc...@angband.pl>:
> 
>> There are cases when the old way had its merit -- but here, we
>> have an equivalent of a car that needs to be started with a
>> hand-crank.
>
> ..you may have missed "Brave New World" by Aldous Huxley and
> George Orwell's "1984", or at the very least, the main point of
> these 2 books and your own nation's history, in these Trumpian
> times.
>
> ..an hand-crank car keeps you in control of what's going on around
> you, if you pay attention.

   Why do you think an electric motor cannot do the same?
>>>
>>> ..straw man, an electric motor cannot do the same without 
>>> AI taking control away from you.  
>>
>>   Please let me know what AI did the Wolkswagen Beetle have?  
>
> ..never heard of those, I've only seen Volkswagens of various models.

  So you agree that stating that "an electric motor cannot do the same without
AI taking control away from you" is BS as you can and do have electric
powered actuators without any AI.

> ..only thing I'm aware of in mom's 1967 1300 Beetle, is the presence of
[...]

(tons of useless, OT crap removed)

>  Your new shiny AI car may decide to kill you to 
> save e.g. "a more worthy person" from something really, really
> bad, e.g. Trumpian embarrasment, e.g. because you pay attention to
> what's going on around you. ;oD
 
   First off, an electric engine starter does not have to have any
 AI built-in.  The XX century auto industry proved it.
>>>
>>> ..and the XXI'st is now disproving it.  
>>
>>   Present day technology cannot change the past.  Car electric
>> starters did not have any AI, they relied completely on the human who
>> turned the key to work.  
>
> ..you never seen Soviet Politburo pictures "evolve"? ;o)
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship_of_images_in_the_Soviet_Union#Censorship_of_historical_photographs

  Mind you, editing pictures is not changing the past.  The example you quote
proves my point: how do you know those pictures were edited?  Because they do
not reflect what actually happened.

> ..similar discoveries can be found on checking e.g. 9/11 stories on WTC
> online against pre-9/11 encyclopedia entries on WTC of the kind printed
> on paper before W. was "elected" president in 2000 and that can be
> found in brick-n-mortar libraries. ;o)
>
   Secondly, AI is not inherently a user alien technology, no more
 that computers are per se a tools against the users.  It all
 depends on who is in charge.  
>>>
>>> ..precisely my point.  
>>
>>   Do you intend to live without computers?
>> Your choice.  
> 
> ..not really, not a viable long term solution.

  So, why are you making all this fuss?  Just to play the Luddite without any
intention to live according to your philosophies?

 As there is software that puts the user in charge (Free/OS
 software) and software that deprives the user of any freedom
 (proprietary software), so there is AI that just serves users and
 AI that controls them.
>>>
>>> ..e.g. systemd is capable of "getting it done" both ways. ;o)  
>>
>>   My home PCs do not have it.  
>
> ..you missed my "e.g.", and my point. ;o)

  Which is a moot example, as systemd can be done away with.

 If this could not be, then your only option would be forsaking
 IT altogether.
>>>
>>> ..maybe.  Eventually, that too will fail, we mere mortals risk 
>>> getting targeted "as Islamists" for _not_ carrying cell phones:
>>> https://theintercept.com/2014/02/10/the-nsas-secret-role/
>>> https://theintercept.com/drone-papers/firing-blind/
>>> https://theintercept.com/2017/08/21/trump-may-not-survive-his-term-but-the-assassination-complex-will/
>>>   
>> 
>>   I did not read anywhere people without cellphones are/will be
>> targeted as islamists, and I fail to understand how you could think
>> those articles and the facts they relate have anything to do with AI  
>
> ..try read them again. ;o)

  So, you too cannot point out any relevant line.

> Slowly, so you can test them against your own beliefs.

  It's not a matter of beliefs, it's just that as a matter of fact those
pieces do not state anywhere that "people without cellphones are/will be
targeted as islamists".  Quite the opposite in fact, as they show how US
agencies track islamists through their cellphones, which shows that they
actually do make use of them.

> ..thenafter, 

Re: [DNG] An alternative to renaming [was Re: Proposed change in behaviour for ascii: eudev net.ifnames]

[karl]

Edward Bartolo:
...
> For instance, a mains transformer based power supply, normally has a
> far longer life than a switched mode power supply, although the latter
...

There are several drawback useing the old transformer + rectifier 
design. Of main consern is the current spikes seen on the power grid 
when the diodes starts to conduct. Your power supplier don't like them 
and that is why we have PFC to make the unit behave more like a
resistor to the power grid.

Regards,
/Karl Hammar

---
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Lilla Aspö 148
S-742 94 Östhammar
Sweden
+46 173 140 57


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Re: [DNG] An alternative to renaming [was Re: Proposed change in behaviour for ascii: eudev net.ifnames]

[Rick Moen]

Quoting Harald Arnesen (har...@skogtun.org):

> >> Manual Xorg configuration is so tedious, time consuming and error
> >> prone that requiring users to be capable of it is just crazy.
> > Au contraire:  Even if you had nothing besides Xorg (or previously
> > XFree86) itself, in almost all cases you could just do 'Xorg -configure
> >> /etc/X11/Xorg.conf' and nothing else.  However, pretty nearly all
> > distributions provided even-easier X configurator tools.
> 
> When? Not when I started using Linux.

At the very latest by RHL7, which was released in 1994.  Red Hat's
easy/GUI X configuration tool was called Xconfigurator.[1]  I vaguely
recall that SUSE and Debian, among many others, had various other ones
with a variety of names.

(This having been in the early/mid 1990s, it was of course for XFree86,
not Xorg.)

If you started using Linux in 1991-1993, then, sure, distributions then
did _not_ include even-easier X configurator tools, and you would have a
very peculiar yet technically valid edge-case point, for which, here,
have a cookie.  ;->  But then, if you are indeed as old an old-timer as I
am, I'm extremely surprised you are not fully aware of when this changed.

But, anyway:  If you wish to go install a bunch of ancient Linux distros
and report back, have fun!  


[1] See, e.g.,
ftp://www-uxsup.csx.cam.ac.uk/pub/doc/redhat/redhat7/rhl-aig-en-7.0/s1-guimode-xconf.html

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Re: [DNG] An alternative to renaming [was Re: Proposed change in behaviour for ascii: eudev net.ifnames]

[karl]

Alessandro:
> On 22/08/2017 at 02:01, Rick Moen wrote:
> > Quoting Adam Borowski (kilob...@angband.pl):
> > 
> >> Manually creating the configuration -- or even manually triggering its
> >> creation -- is a pretty bad idea.  It just guarantees you won't have
> >> working X when you make any change to your hardware -- and sometimes
> >> software as well.

Manually creating xorg.conf is required if you e.g. has a serial 
(rs232) mouse. It is also req. if you want to be able to use the 
serverlayout feature, say if you want to be able to start X with a 
screen dimention of 800x640 for testing without a virtual screen size
or having several X servers running on different vt's with different
(non-virtual) screen sizes.

...
>   Not having to login as root to manually configure Xorg just to change
> video card or monitor was one of the best and most wanted improvements in
> Linux in the past 10 years.  Manual Xorg configuration is so tedious, time
> consuming and error prone that requiring users to be capable of it is just
> crazy.

This xorg.conf:

# cat /etc/X11/xorg.conf
Section "ServerFlags"
Option "AutoAddDevices" "off"
EndSection

works like a charm on my laptop, everything is autodetected by X.
I can plug in usb kbd's and mice, which will be directly usable in
X. That system has no udev installed nor running, and using a plain
old static /dev. And, yes, thoose who aren't using the "us" kbd
layout will want to have a keyboard section or using xmodmap in their
.xinitrc. The possible only thing missing is autodetecting kbd layout,
do udev detect that ?

There is absolutely no need at all to fiddle with xorg.conf for a
vidio card or monitor change unless you want a non-default setup.
For a monitor, you only need to specify a monitor section in xorg.conf
if your monitor doesn't support edid, i.e. for ancient monitors.

I don't see what udev actually provides of value for the X server.

Regards,
/Karl Hammar

---
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Lilla Aspö 148
S-742 94 Östhammar
Sweden
+46 173 140 57


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Re: [DNG] An alternative to renaming [was Re: Proposed change in behaviour for ascii: eudev net.ifnames]

[Rick Moen]

Quoting Alessandro Selli (alessandrose...@linux.com):

> On Wed, 23 Aug 2017 at 10:06:26 -0700
> Rick Moen  wrote:
> > Quoting Alessandro Selli (alessandrose...@linux.com):
> >
> >>   Not having to login as root to manually configure Xorg just to change
> >> video card or monitor was one of the best and most wanted improvements in
> >> Linux in the past 10 years.  
> >
> > I'm sure, but on the other hand, how often did that happen?  Extremely
> > seldom.
> 
>   How often did *what* happen?

What you spoke of.

Which is why I interleaved the quotation from your posting for context.

{sigh}  This starting point suggests why there's no future in this 
present discussion.

[disregarding the rest]

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Re: [DNG] An alternative to renaming [was Re: Proposed change in behaviour for ascii: eudev net.ifnames]

[Arnt Karlsen]

On Wed, 23 Aug 2017 18:00:12 +0200, Alessandro wrote in message 
<20170823180012.327dbdc8@ayu>:

> On Wed, 23 Aug 2017 at 14:22:34 +0200
> Arnt Karlsen  wrote:
> 
> > On Wed, 23 Aug 2017 09:34:49 +0200, Alessandro wrote in message 
> > :
> >
> >> On 22/08/2017 at 13:36, Arnt Karlsen wrote:  
> >>> On Tue, 22 Aug 2017 03:38:50 +0200, Adam wrote in message 
> >>> <20170822013850.ute5cf7ycrlvc...@angband.pl>:
> >>>   
>  There are cases when the old way had its merit -- but here, we
>  have an equivalent of a car that needs to be started with a
>  hand-crank.  
> >>>
> >>> ..you may have missed "Brave New World" by Aldous Huxley and
> >>> George Orwell's "1984", or at the very least, the main point of
> >>> these 2 books and your own nation's history, in these Trumpian
> >>> times.
> >>>
> >>> ..an hand-crank car keeps you in control of what's going on around
> >>> you, if you pay attention.  
> >>
> >>   Why do you think an electric motor cannot do the same?  
> >
> > ..straw man, an electric motor cannot do the same without 
> > AI taking control away from you.
> 
>   Please let me know what AI did the Wolkswagen Beetle have?

..never heard of those, I've only seen Volkswagens of various models.

..only thing I'm aware of in mom's 1967 1300 Beetle, is the presence of 
2 hand cranks for the windows, the absence of any hand crank for the
motor, and the presence of a tuned 1500 engine block that survived it's 
tuner's final test run.  Crazy low end and crazy low idle, 60rpm, at
80rpm it could be nursed out of idle with the gas pedal, at 100rpm it
would hesitate for a second before responding to the gas pedal, and at 
125rpm, it didn't. ;o)   

..everything else other than the block and I suspect the cam shaft, 
was stock 1967 1300.  Pedal to the metal, and it beat bikes, but it 
ran out of breath at high rpms.  Give it 1/4 to a 1/3 pedal, and it
would creep up forever.  I suspect the cam had a crazy delay on inlet
valve closure, letting the motor "blow back out what it didn't need" 
at idle, and "slamming the door behind the inlet charge as it crashed
into the piston crown" as the motor spooled up.  
Easy to crank by hand on the dynamo pulley.


..and I can confirm VW Beetles will start to "rotate" at 100knots or
whatever the speed is when the needle points to the oil (or charge?)
lamp to left of the blinky turn light, and produce a nice GA-style
"landing-on-dry-tarmac" chirp if you hit the brakes late enough and
soon enough, or you'll wind up like the tuner.


..having gone from the curious "Hum, how fast _is_ that speed phantom
going, hum, he's still pulling away", I may have matched AI processing
performance going "Hum, why is the steering acting up like aquaplaning 
I read about somewhere, and on dry asphalt too? (I was a newbie driver)
Hum, didn't I also read somewhere about Beetles having 5 kilograms of 
front axle pressure at 125km/h, and yeah, didn't that 1500 block back
there come from a wreck, and the tuner guy was a VW mechanic and an
experienced driver, so he may have gotten himself into something
similar and reacted like most experienced people advice to do on 
aquaplaning, and on dry asphalt, that would flip his ride, hum, let's
try stomp the brakes first, and only then ease away from the ditch..."

..I recall seeing the Beetle move maybe 5 meters as I made up my
mind. :o)

..great enough straw man? ;o)

> >>>  Your new shiny AI car may decide to kill you to 
> >>> save e.g. "a more worthy person" from something really, really
> >>> bad, e.g. Trumpian embarrasment, e.g. because you pay attention to
> >>> what's going on around you. ;oD  
> >> 
> >>   First off, an electric engine starter does not have to have any
> >> AI built-in.  The XX century auto industry proved it.  
> >
> > ..and the XXI'st is now disproving it.
> 
>   Present day technology cannot change the past.  Car electric
> starters did not have any AI, they relied completely on the human who
> turned the key to work.

..you never seen Soviet Politburo pictures "evolve"? ;o)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship_of_images_in_the_Soviet_Union#Censorship_of_historical_photographs

..similar discoveries can be found on checking e.g. 9/11 stories on WTC
online against pre-9/11 encyclopedia entries on WTC of the kind printed
on paper before W. was "elected" president in 2000 and that can be
found in brick-n-mortar libraries. ;o)

> >>   Secondly, AI is not inherently a user alien technology, no more
> >> that computers are per se a tools against the users.  It all
> >> depends on who is in charge.
> >
> > ..precisely my point.
> 
>   Do you intend to live without computers?
> Your choice.

..not really, not a viable long term solution.

> >> As there is software that puts the user in charge (Free/OS
> >> software) and software that deprives the user of any freedom
> >> (proprietary software), so there is AI that just serves users and
> >> AI that 

Re: [DNG] An alternative to renaming [was Re: Proposed change in behaviour for ascii: eudev net.ifnames]

[Harald Arnesen]

Rick Moen [2017-08-23 19:06]:
> Quoting Alessandro Selli (alessandrose...@linux.com):
> 
>>   Not having to login as root to manually configure Xorg just to change
>> video card or monitor was one of the best and most wanted improvements in
>> Linux in the past 10 years.
> I'm sure, but on the other hand, how often did that happen?  Extremely
> seldom.

Always.

>> Manual Xorg configuration is so tedious, time consuming and error
>> prone that requiring users to be capable of it is just crazy.
> Au contraire:  Even if you had nothing besides Xorg (or previously
> XFree86) itself, in almost all cases you could just do 'Xorg -configure
>> /etc/X11/Xorg.conf' and nothing else.  However, pretty nearly all
> distributions provided even-easier X configurator tools.

When? Not when I started using Linux.
-- 
Hilsen Harald
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Re: [DNG] An alternative to renaming [was Re: Proposed change in behaviour for ascii: eudev net.ifnames]

[Alessandro Selli]

On Wed, 23 Aug 2017 at 18:50:35 +0200
Edward Bartolo  wrote:

> Sometimes there are advantages in opting to use the old way.

  Sometimes.  But electric car starters are not anything new, they were
patented in 1911, 15 years after they were first produced, at a time when
Artificial Intelligence meant nothing. And there is a reason things evolve,
expecially in technology. They do not always evolve the right way, but I see
no reason to abandon mature technology (like Xorg autoconfiguration
capabilities) for something old and impractical just because in the old times
we all did things that way (cursing and yelling at the blank monitor's
message: "Mode unsupported").

Alessandro
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Re: [DNG] An alternative to renaming [was Re: Proposed change in behaviour for ascii: eudev net.ifnames]

[Alessandro Selli]

On Wed, 23 Aug 2017 at 10:06:26 -0700
Rick Moen  wrote:

> Quoting Alessandro Selli (alessandrose...@linux.com):
>
>>   Not having to login as root to manually configure Xorg just to change
>> video card or monitor was one of the best and most wanted improvements in
>> Linux in the past 10 years.  
>
> I'm sure, but on the other hand, how often did that happen?  Extremely
> seldom.

  How often did *what* happen?  That one has to reconfigure Xorg because of a
card/monitor change?  On desktops the monitor seldom changes, the graphics
card a few times.  On laptops the video card never does, the secondary
display (aka external monitor) often does.  So what?  What does one gain
making Xorg configuration static?  Close to nothing.  What does one lose?  A
lot.  Having to login as root to reconfigure Xorg by hand is a show-stopper
in several places, like where I work: people who use the firm's PCs are
usually not given administrative credentials, they never do when they're
not employees.  And even many who do cannot manually tune Xorg's config file,
because they've never seen one. And why should they do?  Xorg can
self-configure when hardware changes, why drop a very useful feature because
it's seldom necessary (but when it is not having it can be a nightmare)?

>> Manual Xorg configuration is so tedious, time consuming and error
>> prone that requiring users to be capable of it is just crazy.  
>
> Au contraire:  Even if you had nothing besides Xorg (or previously
> XFree86) itself, in almost all cases you could just do 'Xorg -configure
>> /etc/X11/Xorg.conf' and nothing else.

  If Xorg fails to autoconfigure on some hardware, very likely
automatic config file generation is going to fail or it will not work on
that hardware.

>  However, pretty nearly all  
> distributions provided even-easier X configurator tools.

  What is Devuan's?

> Many long years ago during the XFree86 era, different chipset
> necessitated installing individual X server packages, so, if you
> switched cards, you often needed to not only reconfigure X but also
> install a new X11 server package.  That was burdensome -- but, again,
> how often do you wake up one morning and say 'I know!  I'm going to
> install a different video card today!'  And that bit was ages ago.

  Yeah, that was ages ago, and it has no relevance to today's case.
I remember those days, when lots of people would update to the latest
Matrox/Ati/3d-fx/nVidia card as soon as it was out to get the latest GLX
support which was needed by some game or by GoogleEarth.

> Perspective, not just a dictionary word.

  Indeed.


Alessandro

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Re: [DNG] An alternative to renaming [was Re: Proposed change in behaviour for ascii: eudev net.ifnames]

[Arnt Karlsen]

On Wed, 23 Aug 2017 18:50:35 +0200, Edward wrote in message 
:

> Sometimes there are advantages in opting to use the old way.
> 
> For instance, a mains transformer based power supply, normally has a
> far longer life than a switched mode power supply, although the latter
> offer the advantage of supplying far higher currents at lower DC
> voltages. Still, for an old electronics engineer, provided a 3 phase
> power supply is available, very high DC current outputs are possible
> with a ripple of only 15% of peak voltage. This performance can be
> achieved even without a smoothing capacitor! [For those who want the
> exact percentage, it is a matter of solving an equation containing a
> couple of sines. Draw 3 sine waves with the same amplitude but reflect
> the negative have cycles into the x-axis. Then solve for the
> intersection points.]
> 
> So, the musty fusty old ways cannot be completely forgotten. In this
> case, if you want very long term reliability you have to use the old
> way.
> 
> My little motto is: use the best fitting technology available without
> giving undue consideration to whether its old or new.

..even that approach can fail you, if your occupation etc power e.g.
require you wear some kind of tracking device, e.g. the funny hats
Catholic and Protestant European Feudal powers made Jews wear during 
the last millenium, served as tracking devices, as anyone seeing such
funny hats immediately knew the guys wearing them were Jews.  

..cell phones are no different these days, and the anonymous drone
operator cited in:
https://theintercept.com/2014/02/10/the-nsas-secret-role/ is crystal 
clear: “It’s really like we’re targeting a cell phone. We’re not going
after people – we’re going after their phones, in the hopes that the 
person on the other end of that missile is the bad guy.”

..the "best fitting technology available" today is whatever makes you
look like Boring Joe Average, making undue consideration of what best
best way to serve your own ass, rather than what _is_ best.

-- 
..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen
...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry...
  Scenarios always come in sets of three: 
  best case, worst case, and just in case.
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Re: [DNG] An alternative to renaming [was Re: Proposed change in behaviour for ascii: eudev net.ifnames]

[Rick Moen]

Quoting Alessandro Selli (alessandrose...@linux.com):

>   Not having to login as root to manually configure Xorg just to change
> video card or monitor was one of the best and most wanted improvements in
> Linux in the past 10 years.

I'm sure, but on the other hand, how often did that happen?  Extremely
seldom.

> Manual Xorg configuration is so tedious, time consuming and error
> prone that requiring users to be capable of it is just crazy.

Au contraire:  Even if you had nothing besides Xorg (or previously
XFree86) itself, in almost all cases you could just do 'Xorg -configure
> /etc/X11/Xorg.conf' and nothing else.  However, pretty nearly all
distributions provided even-easier X configurator tools.

Many long years ago during the XFree86 era, different chipset
necessitated installing individual X server packages, so, if you
switched cards, you often needed to not only reconfigure X but also
install a new X11 server package.  That was burdensome -- but, again,
how often do you wake up one morning and say 'I know!  I'm going to
install a different video card today!'  And that bit was ages ago.

Perspective, not just a dictionary word.

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Re: [DNG] An alternative to renaming [was Re: Proposed change in behaviour for ascii: eudev net.ifnames]

[Alessandro Selli]

On Wed, 23 Aug 2017 at 14:22:34 +0200
Arnt Karlsen  wrote:

> On Wed, 23 Aug 2017 09:34:49 +0200, Alessandro wrote in message 
> :
>
>> On 22/08/2017 at 13:36, Arnt Karlsen wrote:  
>>> On Tue, 22 Aug 2017 03:38:50 +0200, Adam wrote in message 
>>> <20170822013850.ute5cf7ycrlvc...@angband.pl>:
>>>   
 There are cases when the old way had its merit -- but here, we
 have an equivalent of a car that needs to be started with a
 hand-crank.  
>>>
>>> ..you may have missed "Brave New World" by Aldous Huxley and George
>>> Orwell's "1984", or at the very least, the main point of these 2
>>> books and your own nation's history, in these Trumpian times.
>>>
>>> ..an hand-crank car keeps you in control of what's going on around
>>> you, if you pay attention.  
>>
>>   Why do you think an electric motor cannot do the same?  
>
> ..straw man, an electric motor cannot do the same without 
> AI taking control away from you.

  Please let me know what AI did the Wolkswagen Beetle have?

>>>  Your new shiny AI car may decide to kill you to 
>>> save e.g. "a more worthy person" from something really, really bad,
>>> e.g. Trumpian embarrasment, e.g. because you pay attention to
>>> what's going on around you. ;oD  
>> 
>>   First off, an electric engine starter does not have to have any AI
>> built-in.  The XX century auto industry proved it.  
>
> ..and the XXI'st is now disproving it.

  Present day technology cannot change the past.  Car electric starters did
not have any AI, they relied completely on the human who turned the key to
work.

>>   Secondly, AI is not inherently a user alien technology, no more that
>> computers are per se a tools against the users.  It all depends on
>> who is in charge.
>
> ..precisely my point.

  Do you intend to live without computers?
Your choice.

>> As there is software that puts the user in charge (Free/OS software)
>> and software that deprives the user of any freedom (proprietary
>> software), so there is AI that just serves users and AI that controls
>> them.  
>
> ..e.g. systemd is capable of "getting it done" both ways. ;o)

  My home PCs do not have it.

>> If this could not be, then your only option would be forsaking
>> IT altogether.  
>
> ..maybe.  Eventually, that too will fail, we mere mortals risk 
> getting targeted "as Islamists" for _not_ carrying cell phones:
> https://theintercept.com/2014/02/10/the-nsas-secret-role/
> https://theintercept.com/drone-papers/firing-blind/
> https://theintercept.com/2017/08/21/trump-may-not-survive-his-term-but-the-assassination-complex-will/

  I did not read anywhere people without cellphones are/will be targeted as
islamists, and I fail to understand how you could think those articles and
the facts they relate have anything to do with AI and car starters.


Alessandro
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Re: [DNG] An alternative to renaming [was Re: Proposed change in behaviour for ascii: eudev net.ifnames]

[Arnt Karlsen]

On Wed, 23 Aug 2017 09:34:49 +0200, Alessandro wrote in message 
:

> On 22/08/2017 at 13:36, Arnt Karlsen wrote:
> > On Tue, 22 Aug 2017 03:38:50 +0200, Adam wrote in message 
> > <20170822013850.ute5cf7ycrlvc...@angband.pl>:
> > 
> >> There are cases when the old way had its merit -- but here, we
> >> have an equivalent of a car that needs to be started with a
> >> hand-crank.
> >
> > ..you may have missed "Brave New World" by Aldous Huxley and George
> > Orwell's "1984", or at the very least, the main point of these 2
> > books and your own nation's history, in these Trumpian times.
> >
> > ..an hand-crank car keeps you in control of what's going on around
> > you, if you pay attention.
> 
>   Why do you think an electric motor cannot do the same?

..straw man, an electric motor cannot do the same without 
AI taking control away from you.

> >  Your new shiny AI car may decide to kill you to 
> > save e.g. "a more worthy person" from something really, really bad,
> > e.g. Trumpian embarrasment, e.g. because you pay attention to
> > what's going on around you. ;oD
> 
>   First off, an electric engine starter does not have to have any AI
> built-in.  The XX century auto industry proved it.

..and the XXI'st is now disproving it.

>   Secondly, AI is not inherently a user alien technology, no more that
> computers are per se a tools against the users.  It all depends on
> who is in charge.  

..precisely my point.

> As there is software that puts the user in charge (Free/OS software)
> and software that deprives the user of any freedom (proprietary
> software), so there is AI that just serves users and AI that controls
> them.

..e.g. systemd is capable of "getting it done" both ways. ;o)

> If this could not be, then your only option would be forsaking
> IT altogether.

..maybe.  Eventually, that too will fail, we mere mortals risk 
getting targeted "as Islamists" for _not_ carrying cell phones:
https://theintercept.com/2014/02/10/the-nsas-secret-role/
https://theintercept.com/drone-papers/firing-blind/
https://theintercept.com/2017/08/21/trump-may-not-survive-his-term-but-the-assassination-complex-will/

-- 
..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen
...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry...
  Scenarios always come in sets of three: 
  best case, worst case, and just in case.
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Re: [DNG] An alternative to renaming [was Re: Proposed change in behaviour for ascii: eudev net.ifnames]

[Didier Kryn]

Le 23/08/2017 à 09:51, Alessandro Selli a écrit :

   Actually, changing an interface's MAC address is not at all "severe
hacking", it's as easy as running ip link set address 00:e0:4d:78:5b:5b dev
eth0


By "severe", I didn't mean "difficult" :-)

Didier


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Re: [DNG] An alternative to renaming [was Re: Proposed change in behaviour for ascii: eudev net.ifnames]

[Alessandro Selli]

On 22/08/2017 at 15:36, Didier Kryn wrote:

[...]

> The advantage of supporting an option like "hwaddr=a0:d3:c1:9d:a5:86"
> is that the admin is free to specify interfaces by names or by MAC
> address. Of course, there is now the possibility to change the MAC address
> of an interface, but this is a case of severe hacking where the admin has
> to understand what s?he does.

  I wholeheartedly agree.

  Actually, changing an interface's MAC address is not at all "severe
hacking", it's as easy as running ip link set address 00:e0:4d:78:5b:5b dev
eth0, but a boot script needs not do that and anyway there are tools that
can extract the MAC address directly from the hardware.


Alessandro

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Re: [DNG] An alternative to renaming [was Re: Proposed change in behaviour for ascii: eudev net.ifnames]

[Alessandro Selli]

On 22/08/2017 at 02:01, Rick Moen wrote:
> Quoting Adam Borowski (kilob...@angband.pl):
> 
>> Manually creating the configuration -- or even manually triggering its
>> creation -- is a pretty bad idea.  It just guarantees you won't have
>> working X when you make any change to your hardware -- and sometimes
>> software as well.
> 
> Gosh, what you call a bad idea was utterly routine and what everyone was
> used to for decades.  You simply knew that, if you changed your video
> chipset or changed to a radically different pointing device, or if you
> wanted to do something very different like Xinerama, you'd need to
> generate a new one.

  Not having to login as root to manually configure Xorg just to change
video card or monitor was one of the best and most wanted improvements in
Linux in the past 10 years.  Manual Xorg configuration is so tedious, time
consuming and error prone that requiring users to be capable of it is just
crazy.


Alessandro

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Re: [DNG] An alternative to renaming [was Re: Proposed change in behaviour for ascii: eudev net.ifnames]

[Alessandro Selli]

On 22/08/2017 at 13:36, Arnt Karlsen wrote:
> On Tue, 22 Aug 2017 03:38:50 +0200, Adam wrote in message 
> <20170822013850.ute5cf7ycrlvc...@angband.pl>:
> 
>> There are cases when the old way had its merit -- but here, we have an
>> equivalent of a car that needs to be started with a hand-crank.
>
> ..you may have missed "Brave New World" by Aldous Huxley and George
> Orwell's "1984", or at the very least, the main point of these 2 books
> and your own nation's history, in these Trumpian times.
>
> ..an hand-crank car keeps you in control of what's going on around you,
> if you pay attention.

  Why do you think an electric motor cannot do the same?

>  Your new shiny AI car may decide to kill you to 
> save e.g. "a more worthy person" from something really, really bad, e.g.
> Trumpian embarrasment, e.g. because you pay attention to what's going
> on around you. ;oD

  First off, an electric engine starter does not have to have any AI
built-in.  The XX century auto industry proved it.

  Secondly, AI is not inherently a user alien technology, no more that
computers are per se a tools against the users.  It all depends on who is in
charge.  As there is software that puts the user in charge (Free/OS
software) and software that deprives the user of any freedom (proprietary
software), so there is AI that just serves users and AI that controls them.
If this could not be, then your only option would be forsaking IT altogether.

Alessandro
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Re: [DNG] An alternative to renaming [was Re: Proposed change in behaviour for ascii: eudev net.ifnames]

[Rick Moen]

Quoting Hendrik Boom (hend...@topoi.pooq.com):

> In the old days, this was exactly what you always had to do.  I had to 
> manually calculate all the timing numbers from hints privided by the 
> monitor documentation (usually hidden in the advertising blurb on the box the 
> monitor came in), having been warned that if I got them wrong I could 
> destroy the monitor.

Early in the days of multifrequency and then multiscanning monitors, the
very cheapest ones omitted protection circuitry, such that if you sent
them video signals outside the high and low vertical and horizontal
frequency limits, you could if you were very unlucky and rather
inept/incautious drive the monitor into burning itself out.  (More
specifically, you would start X11 up and hear and see sounds of failing
to quite sync, and if you were stupid and ignored these clear signs of
distress, after half an hour or so of this torture the monitor could
fizzle out.)

All of the _better_ multifrequency (and, later, multiscanning) monitors
such as (at the top end, among many others) the NEC MultiSync series
including protection circuitry.  (The earliest MultiSyncs were actually
in the mid-1980s, very early, but imitators took a while to follow NEC's
lead.)

Subsequent to that (mid-1990s), all monitors have both included
protection circuitry _and_ sent EDID (Extended Display Identification
Data) information automatically, declaring the frequencies they can do.
ISTR that EDID was one of the accomplishments of the Video Electronics
Standards Association (VESA).

And then, LED monitors obsoleted tube monitors, and it became impossible
even in theory to blow up your monitor, that way.


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Re: [DNG] An alternative to renaming [was Re: Proposed change in behaviour for ascii: eudev net.ifnames]

[Didier Kryn]

Le 22/08/2017 à 15:09, Hendrik Boom a écrit :

 Note that a similar problem with disks has been solved elegantly by
referencing disks by their uuid or label in /etc/fstab. Maybe
/etc/network/interface could specify the MAC address as a hook. This would
only suppose that the hotplugger creates a symlink to the interface in some
/dev/net/by-address/  subdirectory. With this solution, it is up to the admin
to decide if  s?he wants a simple configuration based on interface name
(eth0) or a secured one alla "Address=a0:d3:c1:9d:a5:86".

It turns out that something like this already exists.  The ifrename command
renames interfaces using a /etc/iftab file.  But it is not installed
by default.


The problem is the rename, because of the race condition. In 
comparison, here is a citation of the mount man page:


The device indication.
  Most  devices  are  indicated by a file name (of a block 
special
  device), like /dev/sda1, but there are other 
possibilities.  For
  example,  in  the  case  of  an  NFS mount, device may 
look like
  knuth.cwi.nl:/dir.  It is possible to indicate a block  
special
  device using its volume LABEL or UUID (see the -L and -U 
options

  below).

See the option to use uuid? Mount doesn't require that /dev/sda1 be 
*renamed*; it just can find the block special device itself, given the 
uuid. The randomness of disk naming is solved without messing with those 
names. It doesn't seem a problem to offer a similar option in the ip (or 
ifconfig) command.


The advantage of supporting an option like 
"hwaddr=a0:d3:c1:9d:a5:86" is that the admin is free to specify 
interfaces by names or by MAC address. Of course, there is now the 
possibility to change the MAC address of an interface, but this is a 
case of severe hacking where the admin has to understand what s?he does.


Didier


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Re: [DNG] An alternative to renaming [was Re: Proposed change in behaviour for ascii: eudev net.ifnames]

[Rowland Penny]

On Tue, 22 Aug 2017 09:09:11 -0400
Hendrik Boom  wrote:

> On Mon, Aug 21, 2017 at 03:52:44PM +0200, Didier Kryn wrote:
> > 
> > Note that a similar problem with disks has been solved
> > elegantly by referencing disks by their uuid or label
> > in /etc/fstab. Maybe /etc/network/interface could specify the MAC
> > address as a hook. This would only suppose that the hotplugger
> > creates a symlink to the interface in some /dev/net/by-address/
> > subdirectory. With this solution, it is up to the admin to decide
> > if  s?he wants a simple configuration based on interface name
> > (eth0) or a secured one alla "Address=a0:d3:c1:9d:a5:86".
> 
> It turns out that something like this already exists.  The ifrename
> command renames interfaces using a /etc/iftab file.  But it is not
> installed by default. 
> 
> Ifrename must be run before interfaces are brought up,
> 
> So it seems to be something that has to be used during init or 
> hotplugging.
> 
> Is it a systemdism?
> 
> -- hendrik

No, it seems to have been about since at least 2006:

http://www.enterprisenetworkingplanet.com/netos/article.php/3586546/Nail-Down-Network-Interface-Names-with-ifrename.htm

Rowland
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Re: [DNG] An alternative to renaming [was Re: Proposed change in behaviour for ascii: eudev net.ifnames]

[Hendrik Boom]

On Mon, Aug 21, 2017 at 03:52:44PM +0200, Didier Kryn wrote:
> 
> Note that a similar problem with disks has been solved elegantly by
> referencing disks by their uuid or label in /etc/fstab. Maybe
> /etc/network/interface could specify the MAC address as a hook. This would
> only suppose that the hotplugger creates a symlink to the interface in some
> /dev/net/by-address/ subdirectory. With this solution, it is up to the admin
> to decide if  s?he wants a simple configuration based on interface name
> (eth0) or a secured one alla "Address=a0:d3:c1:9d:a5:86".

It turns out that something like this already exists.  The ifrename command
renames interfaces using a /etc/iftab file.  But it is not installed 
by default. 

Ifrename must be run before interfaces are brought up,

So it seems to be something that has to be used during init or 
hotplugging.

Is it a systemdism?

-- hendrik
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Re: [DNG] An alternative to renaming [was Re: Proposed change in behaviour for ascii: eudev net.ifnames]

[Hendrik Boom]

On Tue, Aug 22, 2017 at 01:08:25AM +0200, Adam Borowski wrote:
> 
> Manually creating the configuration -- or even manually triggering its
> creation -- is a pretty bad idea.  It just guarantees you won't have working
> X when you make any change to your hardware -- and sometimes software as
> well.

In the old days, this was exactly what you always had to do.  I had to 
manually calculate all the timing numbers from hints privided by the 
monitor documentation (usually hidden in the advertising blurb on the box the 
monitor came in), having been warned that if I got them wrong I could 
destroy the monitor.

That was in the old days, when momitors didn't have much to say to 
computers.

THe current situation is just dreamy by comparison.

-- hendrik

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Re: [DNG] An alternative to renaming [was Re: Proposed change in behaviour for ascii: eudev net.ifnames]

[Arnt Karlsen]

On Tue, 22 Aug 2017 03:38:50 +0200, Adam wrote in message 
<20170822013850.ute5cf7ycrlvc...@angband.pl>:

> There are cases when the old way had its merit -- but here, we have an
> equivalent of a car that needs to be started with a hand-crank.

..you may have missed "Brave New World" by Aldous Huxley and George
Orwell's "1984", or at the very least, the main point of these 2 books
and your own nation's history, in these Trumpian times.

..an hand-crank car keeps you in control of what's going on around you,
if you pay attention.  Your new shiny AI car may decide to kill you to 
save e.g. "a more worthy person" from something really, really bad, e.g.
Trumpian embarrasment, e.g. because you pay attention to what's going
on around you. ;oD

-- 
..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen
...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry...
  Scenarios always come in sets of three: 
  best case, worst case, and just in case.
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Re: [DNG] An alternative to renaming [was Re: Proposed change in behaviour for ascii: eudev net.ifnames]

[Didier Kryn]

Le 22/08/2017 à 03:38, Adam Borowski a écrit :

Per the other thread, the only thing you need udev/mdev for anymore is
setting permissions and calling hooks.  Don't tell me that udev is a "big
price" on any machine bigger than a microcontroller these days.


The price of depending on Udev-Systemd and Dbus. The price of not 
being assured of the future of Eudev and of Vdev. The price of the 
complexity of all these.



You might have missed the context.  We were talking about how to ensure
that Xorg works with mdev, rather than udev.

But why?  mdev is not meant to be used beyond an initramfs, it can't do
hotplug, and on modern Linux coldplug is almost entirely done via hotplug --
with shit happening if your software can't take a device which took a while
to start.


What makes you think it should be restricted to initramfs? For sure 
it was meant to have a small footprint and small resource usage, but I 
don't think it sacrifies any functionality, except it lacks the 
equivalent of libudev, which library seems to be used only by Udev 
itself and Xorg.


Didier


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Re: [DNG] An alternative to renaming [was Re: Proposed change in behaviour for ascii: eudev net.ifnames]

[Rick Moen]

Quoting Adam Borowski (kilob...@angband.pl):

> There are cases when the old way had its merit -- but here, we have an
> equivalent of a car that needs to be started with a hand-crank.

This is an exaggeration by orders of magnitude.  But you're certainly
entitled to your opinion.

> Then write just your desired resolution (or what else is wrong in your
> EDID).  Or, better, set it at runtime.

You could do that.  But tweaking a Xorg.conf.new file works, too.

> Now this is getting ridiculous.

I concur.  Therefore, I'll ignore the rest.

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Re: [DNG] An alternative to renaming [was Re: Proposed change in behaviour for ascii: eudev net.ifnames]

[Adam Borowski]

On Mon, Aug 21, 2017 at 05:01:13PM -0700, Rick Moen wrote:
> Quoting Adam Borowski (kilob...@angband.pl):
> 
> > Manually creating the configuration -- or even manually triggering its
> > creation -- is a pretty bad idea.  It just guarantees you won't have
> > working X when you make any change to your hardware -- and sometimes
> > software as well.
> 
> Gosh, what you call a bad idea was utterly routine and what everyone was
> used to for decades.  You simply knew that, if you changed your video chipset
> or changed to a radically different pointing device, or if you wanted to
> do something very different like Xinerama, you'd need to generate a new
> one.

There are cases when the old way had its merit -- but here, we have an
equivalent of a car that needs to be started with a hand-crank.

> Also, having an /etc/X11/Xorg.conf file means _you_, rather than Xorg
> autoprobing, were in charge of what X would do and what it would be
> willing to try.  Like, maybe you have a monitor for which the built-in
> EDID information is slightly wrong and you know what it should be, so
> you tweak Xorg.conf to use the correct information.

Then write just your desired resolution (or what else is wrong in your
EDID).  Or, better, set it at runtime.

> Moreover, 'won't have working X' is a melodramatic exaggeration of the 
> situation where, if you changed to a new video chipset, or a new
> monitor, or a very different mouse

Now this is getting ridiculous.  I borrow one of the monitors for a quick
task elsewhere quite often.  Why would I need to shut down X, configure
things manually, then start it again, if it can -- and does -- handle
monitor hotplug correctly?  Worst case, I'd need to use xrandr (or a
clicky-clicky equivalent) to turn off that blasted mirrored mode some smelly
laptop-lover invented (although this particular bug seems to be gone).

Same with input devices.  If I change the keyboard or the mouse, why would I
need to drop all my state, rewrite the config, then restart X?  Input
devices are handled by the kernel in an unified way for a decade.

(BTW, you'd want to purge gpm and replace it with consolation -- it's a
clean rewrite without the 90's baggage, with less than 10% code size.)

> you could always re-run 'Xorg
> -configure', test the output, put it in place, and have a tested new
> configuration in about 60 seconds.  Or, if you no longer wanted that,
> just mv /etc/X11/Xorg.conf /etc/X11/Xorg.conf.save , and you're right
> back to the automagical thing.

I prefer 0 seconds to 60 seconds.  And it's never 60 seconds in practice --
in the bad old days it was a matter of hours digging through the
documentation.  Assuming the user knew where to find the documentation in
the first place.

> I personally think a udev dependency is far too big a price to pay for
> Xorg autoconfiguration when generating what you want is so simple.
> However, as usual, I'm deciding that only for myself.

It's neither simple nor necessary.  If mdev fails to provide X with required
information, that's a defect of mdev.  But really, it's not the duty of
userland to do such things these days -- unless you happen to have a decade
old graphics card no one bothered to write a KMS and DRM driver for, there's
no configuration to be done.

Per the other thread, the only thing you need udev/mdev for anymore is
setting permissions and calling hooks.  Don't tell me that udev is a "big
price" on any machine bigger than a microcontroller these days.

> > Save for good-for-nothing Nvidia proprietary drivers, I haven't seen a case
> > where mucking with this file was needed to get working X for over a decade.
> 
> You might have missed the context.  We were talking about how to ensure
> that Xorg works with mdev, rather than udev.

But why?  mdev is not meant to be used beyond an initramfs, it can't do
hotplug, and on modern Linux coldplug is almost entirely done via hotplug --
with shit happening if your software can't take a device which took a while
to start.

Could you please tell me what's your use case for micromanaging a machine
that has an X-capable display attached?


Meow!
-- 
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⣾⠁⢰⠒⠀⣿⡁ Vat kind uf sufficiently advanced technology iz dis!?
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Re: [DNG] An alternative to renaming [was Re: Proposed change in behaviour for ascii: eudev net.ifnames]

[Rick Moen]

Quoting Adam Borowski (kilob...@angband.pl):

> Manually creating the configuration -- or even manually triggering its
> creation -- is a pretty bad idea.  It just guarantees you won't have
> working X when you make any change to your hardware -- and sometimes
> software as well.

Gosh, what you call a bad idea was utterly routine and what everyone was
used to for decades.  You simply knew that, if you changed your video chipset
or changed to a radically different pointing device, or if you wanted to
do something very different like Xinerama, you'd need to generate a new
one.

Also, having an /etc/X11/Xorg.conf file means _you_, rather than Xorg
autoprobing, were in charge of what X would do and what it would be
willing to try.  Like, maybe you have a monitor for which the built-in
EDID information is slightly wrong and you know what it should be, so
you tweak Xorg.conf to use the correct information.

Moreover, 'won't have working X' is a melodramatic exaggeration of the 
situation where, if you changed to a new video chipset, or a new
monitor, or a very different mouse, you could always re-run 'Xorg
-configure', test the output, put it in place, and have a tested new
configuration in about 60 seconds.  Or, if you no longer wanted that,
just mv /etc/X11/Xorg.conf /etc/X11/Xorg.conf.save , and you're right
back to the automagical thing.

I personally think a udev dependency is far too big a price to pay for
Xorg autoconfiguration when generating what you want is so simple.
However, as usual, I'm deciding that only for myself.

> Save for good-for-nothing Nvidia proprietary drivers, I haven't seen a case
> where mucking with this file was needed to get working X for over a decade.

You might have missed the context.  We were talking about how to ensure
that Xorg works with mdev, rather than udev.

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Re: [DNG] An alternative to renaming [was Re: Proposed change in behaviour for ascii: eudev net.ifnames]

[Adam Borowski]

On Mon, Aug 21, 2017 at 02:30:00PM -0700, Rick Moen wrote:
> My guess is that the udev developers thought 'It'd be excellent to 
> automatically supply to the starting Xorg binary the output of "Xorg
> -configure" when /etc/X11/Xorg.conf doesn't exist, thereby making Xorg
> automagically able to reconfigure itself every time it starts without
> ever bothering to create Xorg.conf' -- and somehow made the library
> call to libudev perform that shim operation.  All I really know is that
> I was suddenly being told that creating Xorg.conf was no longer
> necessary if you were adequately happy with the autoconfiguration
> occuring in its absence.

Manually creating the configuration -- or even manually triggering its
creation -- is a pretty bad idea.  It just guarantees you won't have working
X when you make any change to your hardware -- and sometimes software as
well.

If you have a need to adjust the configuration, you put into Xorg.conf just
the settings you want to alter.  This will let X do the right thing.

Save for good-for-nothing Nvidia proprietary drivers, I haven't seen a case
where mucking with this file was needed to get working X for over a decade.


Meow!
-- 
⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀ 
⣾⠁⢰⠒⠀⣿⡁ Vat kind uf sufficiently advanced technology iz dis!?
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀-- Genghis Ht'rok'din
⠈⠳⣄ 
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Re: [DNG] An alternative to renaming [was Re: Proposed change in behaviour for ascii: eudev net.ifnames]

[Rick Moen]

Quoting Didier Kryn (k...@in2p3.fr):

> Sorry, Rick, but I don't understand how it is possible that, on
> one hand, it needs libudev to configure itself, and, on the other
> hand, it is able to generate its config file without it. Can you
> explain this paradox?

Not really, no.

My guess is that the udev developers thought 'It'd be excellent to 
automatically supply to the starting Xorg binary the output of "Xorg
-configure" when /etc/X11/Xorg.conf doesn't exist, thereby making Xorg
automagically able to reconfigure itself every time it starts without
ever bothering to create Xorg.conf' -- and somehow made the library
call to libudev perform that shim operation.  All I really know is that
I was suddenly being told that creating Xorg.conf was no longer
necessary if you were adequately happy with the autoconfiguration
occuring in its absence.

The fine point you might have missed is, in the absence of the libudev
support, Xorg doesn't _automatically_ create an Xorg.conf nor default in
its absence to using what would have been created by 'Xorg -configure >
/etc/X11/Xorg.conf' if you had do that.

In fact, the old-school method was/is so cautious that its default
output (./Xorg.conf.new) is specifically crafted so you would _not_ 
accidetnally overwrite a production Xorg.conf .

Anyway, I can testify that 'Xorg -configure' does indeed output a
conffile that's usually really good.  I did that for long years, and the
same with XFree86 before that.

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Re: [DNG] An alternative to renaming [was Re: Proposed change in behaviour for ascii: eudev net.ifnames]

[Didier Kryn]

Le 21/08/2017 à 16:48, Rick Moen a écrit :

Quoting Didier Kryn (k...@in2p3.fr):

[mdev:]


Sure it would be helpful :-) AFAIK X11 is able to configure
itself automatically without a config file when libudev provides it
with an interface to query device properties, and without this
library it is necessary to provide a config file.

At the risk of committing heresy, there's nothing all _that_ bad about,
on new Linux systems or ones where you suddenly switched in a whole new
video hardware system, having to generate an /etc/X11/Xorg.conf file
using 'Xorg -configure' (which by default outputs ./xorg.conf.new).

Sorry, Rick, but I don't understand how it is possible that, on one 
hand, it needs libudev to configure itself, and, on the other hand, it 
is able to generate its config file without it. Can you explain this 
paradox?


Didier

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Re: [DNG] An alternative to renaming [was Re: Proposed change in behaviour for ascii: eudev net.ifnames]

[Rick Moen]

Quoting Didier Kryn (k...@in2p3.fr):

[mdev:]

> Sure it would be helpful :-) AFAIK X11 is able to configure
> itself automatically without a config file when libudev provides it
> with an interface to query device properties, and without this
> library it is necessary to provide a config file.

At the risk of committing heresy, there's nothing all _that_ bad about,
on new Linux systems or ones where you suddenly switched in a whole new
video hardware system, having to generate an /etc/X11/Xorg.conf file
using 'Xorg -configure' (which by default outputs ./xorg.conf.new).

(/me raps the virtual podium with his figurative cane.  ;->  )

-- 
Cheers,   « Certainement qui est en droit de vous rendre absurde est
Rick Moen endroit de vous rendre injuste. »  ("Certainly, any one 
r...@linuxmafia.com   who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the 
McQ! (4x80)   power to make you commit injustices.")   -- Voltaire 
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Re: [DNG] An alternative to renaming [was Re: Proposed change in behaviour for ascii: eudev net.ifnames]

[Narcis Garcia]

El 21/08/17 a les 15:52, Didier Kryn ha escrit:
> Note that a similar problem with disks has been solved elegantly by
> referencing disks by their uuid or label in /etc/fstab. Maybe
> /etc/network/interface could specify the MAC address as a hook. This
> would only suppose that the hotplugger creates a symlink to the
> interface in some /dev/net/by-address/ subdirectory. With this solution,
> it is up to the admin to decide if  s?he wants a simple configuration
> based on interface name (eth0) or a secured one alla
> "Address=a0:d3:c1:9d:a5:86".
> 

+1

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Re: [DNG] An alternative to renaming [was Re: Proposed change in behaviour for ascii: eudev net.ifnames]

[Didier Kryn]

Le 21/08/2017 à 16:04, k...@aspodata.se a écrit :

Didier Kryn:

Le 21/08/2017 à 14:41, Arnt Karlsen a écrit :

..we need to sell either vdev or eudev or some such non-systemd
udev upstream to Linus and the kernel guys and get them happy
about kicking out systemd-udev from the kernel code base.

[OT]I would prefer Mdev if the issue with X11 could be solved :-)
Mdev is so simpler than Udev, Eudev and Vdev.

...

What is the issue with X11, you know that you can run X without udev ?
Perhaps it would be helpful if I provided udev-less versions of it.

Sure it would be helpful :-) AFAIK X11 is able to configure itself 
automatically without a config file when libudev provides it with an 
interface to query device properties, and without this library it is 
necessary to provide a config file.


There are instructions at 
https://github.com/slashbeast/mdev-like-a-boss but I didn't experiment 
them yet.


Didier

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Re: [DNG] An alternative to renaming [was Re: Proposed change in behaviour for ascii: eudev net.ifnames]

[karl]

Didier Kryn:
> Le 21/08/2017 à 14:41, Arnt Karlsen a écrit :
> > ..we need to sell either vdev or eudev or some such non-systemd
> > udev upstream to Linus and the kernel guys and get them happy
> > about kicking out systemd-udev from the kernel code base.
> 
> [OT]I would prefer Mdev if the issue with X11 could be solved :-) 
> Mdev is so simpler than Udev, Eudev and Vdev.
...

What is the issue with X11, you know that you can run X without udev ?
Perhaps it would be helpful if I provided udev-less versions of it.

Regards,
/Karl Hammar

---
Aspö Data
Lilla Aspö 148
S-742 94 Östhammar
Sweden
+46 173 140 57


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