Re: [DNG] An alternative to renaming [was Re: Proposed change in behaviour for ascii: eudev net.ifnames]
Quoting Alessandro Selli (alessandrose...@linux.com): > This was true in thousands of other people's experience. You are a very amusing person. Thank you for that. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] An alternative to renaming [was Re: Proposed change in behaviour for ascii: eudev net.ifnames]
On Sat, Aug 26, 2017 at 12:45:27PM -0400, Hendrik Boom wrote: > On Sat, Aug 26, 2017 at 02:34:36PM +0200, Alessandro Selli wrote: > > On Wed, 23 Aug 2017 at 23:23:47 +0200 (CEST) > > k...@aspodata.se wrote: > > > > > Manually creating xorg.conf is required if you e.g. has a serial > > > (rs232) mouse. > > > > Who does? Really, who today uses a mouse based on a technology that went > > out of production some 15 years ago and uses a connector that is absent on > > most computers (and all laptops AFAICT) produced after 2009? > > My home server still has a mouse and a keyboard with one of those > ancient round plugs. That's PS/2, not RS232. -- ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀ ⣾⠁⢰⠒⠀⣿⡁ Vat kind uf sufficiently advanced technology iz dis!? ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ -- Genghis Ht'rok'din ⠈⠳⣄ ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] An alternative to renaming [was Re: Proposed change in behaviour for ascii: eudev net.ifnames]
On Sat, 26 Aug 2017 at 09:03:04 -0700 Rick Moen wrote: > Quoting Alessandro Selli (alessandrose...@linux.com): > >> 1) they did not work (a lot of the times); > > That was not true in my long and varied experience. This was true in thousands of other people's experience. > (I have run installfests for eight or nine Linux and BSD > user groups in the San Francisco Bay Area from the middle 1990s to the > present day.) Oh yeah, and Kudzu was great, and devfs was the best virtual device filesystem ever... >> 2) Xorg self-configuration works (most of the times). > > This cannot be true, as this is before Xorg existed. Did I write: "XFree86 self-configuration works (most of the times)"? No, I wrote: "Xorg self-configuration works (most of the times)". XFree86 configuration was static, messy and fragile. One of the best improvement on it by Xorg is the latter's capability to self-configure reliably. You cannot deny this by stating that in XFree86 times Xorg did not exit. It's like stating that the Airbus 380 navigation system cannot be said to be better than the A300's because the A380 is equipped with a GNSS which did not exist on the A300. Alessandro ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] An alternative to renaming [was Re: Proposed change in behaviour for ascii: eudev net.ifnames]
On Sat, Aug 26, 2017 at 02:34:36PM +0200, Alessandro Selli wrote: > On Wed, 23 Aug 2017 at 23:23:47 +0200 (CEST) > k...@aspodata.se wrote: > > > Manually creating xorg.conf is required if you e.g. has a serial > > (rs232) mouse. > > Who does? Really, who today uses a mouse based on a technology that went > out of production some 15 years ago and uses a connector that is absent on > most computers (and all laptops AFAICT) produced after 2009? My home server still has a mouse and a keyboard with one of those ancient round plugs. One of the nice things about this server is that it does not have the Intel management engine. -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] An alternative to renaming [was Re: Proposed change in behaviour for ascii: eudev net.ifnames]
Quoting Alessandro Selli (alessandrose...@linux.com): > 1) they did not work (a lot of the times); That was not true in my long and varied experience. (I have run installfests for eight or nine Linux and BSD user groups in the San Francisco Bay Area from the middle 1990s to the present day.) > 2) Xorg self-configuration works (most of the times). This cannot be true, as this is before Xorg existed. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] An alternative to renaming [was Re: Proposed change in behaviour for ascii: eudev net.ifnames]
On Thu, 24 Aug 2017 at 22:46:28 +0200 Antony Stone wrote: [...] > (and, for what it's worth, my preference is to stick with ethX as a > default, My favourite choice for the default behaviour, too. Alessandro ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] An alternative to renaming [was Re: Proposed change in behaviour for ascii: eudev net.ifnames]
On Wed, 23 Aug 2017 at 23:23:47 +0200 (CEST) k...@aspodata.se wrote: > Manually creating xorg.conf is required if you e.g. has a serial > (rs232) mouse. Who does? Really, who today uses a mouse based on a technology that went out of production some 15 years ago and uses a connector that is absent on most computers (and all laptops AFAICT) produced after 2009? > It is also req. if you want to be able to use the > serverlayout feature, say if you want to be able to start X with a > screen dimention of 800x640 for testing without a virtual screen size > or having several X servers running on different vt's with different > (non-virtual) screen sizes. All of this you can do with xrandr on the command line. And of course the major WMs have their our GUI tools to do the same. > ... >> Not having to login as root to manually configure Xorg just to change >> video card or monitor was one of the best and most wanted improvements in >> Linux in the past 10 years. Manual Xorg configuration is so tedious, time >> consuming and error prone that requiring users to be capable of it is just >> crazy. >> This xorg.conf: > > # cat /etc/X11/xorg.conf > Section "ServerFlags" > Option "AutoAddDevices" "off" > EndSection > > works like a charm on my laptop, everything is autodetected by X. "Works for me" is not a good way to go when one readies a general-purpose distribution that is to work on any combination of hardware available on the target platform. [...] > There is absolutely no need at all to fiddle with xorg.conf for a > vidio card or monitor change unless you want a non-default setup. Yes, and you do not need to drink if you're not thirsty, and you do not need to drive your car if you do not need to go anywhere. > For a monitor, you only need to specify a monitor section in xorg.conf > if your monitor doesn't support edid, i.e. for ancient monitors. Which means you do *not* need xorg.conf since Xorg was made capable of self-configuring on most hardware. I agree. So what? It still holds that "Not having to login as root to manually configure Xorg just to change video card or monitor was one of the best and most wanted improvements in Linux in the past 10 years." > I don't see what udev actually provides of value for the X server. I never argued in udev's favour. Alessandro ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] An alternative to renaming [was Re: Proposed change in behaviour for ascii: eudev net.ifnames]
On Wed, 23 Aug 2017 at 14:32:39 -0700 Rick Moen wrote: > Red Hat's > easy/GUI X configuration tool was called Xconfigurator.[1] I vaguely > recall that SUSE and Debian, among many others, had various other ones > with a variety of names. They were all dropped for the same reasons: 1) they did not work (a lot of the times); 2) Xorg self-configuration works (most of the times). Alessandro ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] An alternative to renaming [was Re: Proposed change in behaviour for ascii: eudev net.ifnames]
Quoting Steve Litt (sl...@troubleshooters.com): > To take it a step further, for gosh sakes, write for clarity. Quote > what's relevant to your reply, including what person said it, and > delete all quoted material not relevant to your reply. If you're > interleave posting, please please PLEASE delete all quoted text below > your final response so readers don't waste time looking for yet another > of your responses. [...] Sally Hambridge's (then a network engineer for Intel Online Services) RFC 1855 is 22 years old, but is still timely! https://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc1855.txt One (IMO) respect-worthy modern attempt to reassess and update it: http://www.whoishostingthis.com/resources/netiquette/#rfc1855 There have been numerous attempts at helping people interact fruitfully with online communities, but Ms. Hambridge's is difficult to top. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] An alternative to renaming [was Re: Proposed change in behaviour for ascii: eudev net.ifnames]
On Fri, 25 Aug 2017 00:35:13 +0200 Svante Signell wrote: > Hi Edward, > > Can you please quote the relevant parts of the mail you are replying > to, especially the name of the person who sent that mail. Please ;) Yes! And I wish everybody would do what Svante says. And it's not just Edward, by any means. To take it a step further, for gosh sakes, write for clarity. Quote what's relevant to your reply, including what person said it, and delete all quoted material not relevant to your reply. If you're interleave posting, please please PLEASE delete all quoted text below your final response so readers don't waste time looking for yet another of your responses. Interleave posting can increase clarity and reduce the need for you to be microscopically explicit. Use it! If you simply must print one massive reply at the very bottom, please be sure to be explicit about what each and every one of your points refers to, and please delete all quoted text not related to your reply. And for those of you who insist on top-posting, which breaks long many-poster sequences of very clear interleave posting, please at least have the decency not to use words like "it", "them", "him", but instead write out the whole concept, as in "the /etc/runit directory", "the services started by runit", or "Peter Johnson", respectively. Who wants to parse the entire bottom of an email trying to find out what someone meant by "it", "them" or "him"? And please remember, top-posting does not excuse you from deleting irrelevant quoted text while leaving relevant quoted text in place. Top-posting with no quoted text deletion is outstanding for business transactions intended to be a contemporaneous log of what happened (CYA, in other words). But it's a discussion-muddling obfuscation in a multi-person brainstorming session, which is what we're supposed to have on technical mailing lists. Thanks, SteveT ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] An alternative to renaming [was Re: Proposed change in behaviour for ascii: eudev net.ifnames]
On Thu, 2017-08-24 at 22:16 +0200, Edward Bartolo wrote: > Option 3 will break simple-netaid both the frontend and the backend. > Option 1 may not need any code changing. > > What is the advantage if any of naming an interface eth0of1? Why eth0 > is appended with an 'of1'? Why not just use eth0, eth1, , ethN > instead? Hi Edward, Can you please quote the relevant parts of the mail you are replying to, especially the name of the person who sent that mail. Please ;) ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] An alternative to renaming [was Re: Proposed change in behaviour for ascii: eudev net.ifnames]
Le 24/08/2017 à 17:45, Rick Moen a écrit : (To my knowledge, I'm the only Rick who's recently posted.) Just a point: I've steered clear of said off-topic philosophical discussion, and spoken only on the subthreads about X configuration and about fvwm/SLiM. Rick, Excuse me if I've included you by mistake. Actually I've seen these days on several threads, severall technically skilled persons exchanging philosophical or semantic POVs which went pretty far from what regards computers. I may have confused people and threads :-) Didier ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] An alternative to renaming [was Re: Proposed change in behaviour for ascii: eudev net.ifnames]
On 08/24/2017 09:34 AM, Edward Bartolo wrote: > Quote by Narcis Garcia: "...Volkswagen...soviet...assassination...mom" > > ??? > Sorry, I don't read minds and have no intention to waste my time > trying to decipher what you could have written in a way that could be > understood immediately. > > Sorry for my rude reply but writing illegible replies is also rude. > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng I have no idea what this is, but it sounds entertaining and random, but also non-essential for this mailing list... ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] An alternative to renaming [was Re: Proposed change in behaviour for ascii: eudev net.ifnames]
On Thursday 24 August 2017 at 22:04:40, Steve Litt wrote: > On Thu, 24 Aug 2017 10:28:55 +0200 > > Antony Stone wrote: > > > > 3. To those who have been posting it - please stop, and get back > > on-topic about making Devuan a better distribution. > > Ummm, no. Part of making a better Devuan distribution is deciding > intelligently whether to: > > 1) Call the interface enpo22f4gtx > 2) Call the interface eth0 > 3) Have the kernel call it enpo22f4gtx and have a user utility deduce >it to something like $eth0of1 Agreed. That has absolutely nothing to do with Soviet censorship, Volkwagen starter motors, Polish politics, and whatever else has been going on in these threads over the past few days. So, please keep talking about ethernet interface names - I agree that that's important (and, for what it's worth, my preference is to stick with ethX as a default, but provide the option to use the MAC address instead as a UUID equivalent) Antony. -- This sentence contains exacly three erors. Please reply to the list; please *don't* CC me. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] An alternative to renaming [was Re: Proposed change in behaviour for ascii: eudev net.ifnames]
Option 3 will break simple-netaid both the frontend and the backend. Option 1 may not need any code changing. What is the advantage if any of naming an interface eth0of1? Why eth0 is appended with an 'of1'? Why not just use eth0, eth1, , ethN instead? -- If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. (Albert Einstein) If you cannot make abstructions about details you do not understand the concepts underlying them. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] An alternative to renaming [was Re: Proposed change in behaviour for ascii: eudev net.ifnames]
On Thu, 24 Aug 2017 10:28:55 +0200 Antony Stone wrote: > On Thursday 24 August 2017 at 10:24:56, Narcis Garcia wrote: > > > ...Wolkswagen Beetle ... > > ...Volkswagens of various models > > ...mom's 1967 1300 Beetle... > > ...Soviet Politburo pictures "evolve"... > > ...trump-may-not-survive-his-term-but-the-assassination-complex-will... > > ...Italian history is quite different from Polish history... > > > > What are you talking about? > > It's difficult for non-native english speaking people to feel sense > > to this kind of threads in a list supposed to be about Devuan > > GNU+Linux > > 1. Well said. > > 2. You don't have to be a non-native English speaker to realise that > a lot of this off-topic drivel does not make sense. > > 3. To those who have been posting it - please stop, and get back > on-topic about making Devuan a better distribution. Ummm, no. Part of making a better Devuan distribution is deciding intelligently whether to: 1) Call the interface enpo22f4gtx 2) Call the interface eth0 3) Have the kernel call it enpo22f4gtx and have a user utility deduce it to something like $eth0of1 I'd vote for #3, but would be happy with any of the above. I'm not sure how VW, Trump or Poland snuck into the thread, but it's about Devuan. SteveT Steve Litt July 2017 featured book: Quit Joblessness: Start Your Own Business http://www.troubleshooters.com/startbiz ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] An alternative to renaming [was Re: Proposed change in behaviour for ascii: eudev net.ifnames]
Quoting Harald Arnesen (har...@skogtun.org): > Red Hat 7 was released in 2000, according to Wikipedia. Hey, you're right, thanks! That'll teach me to post from memory when I'm jet-lagged. So, Linux distributions have had even-easier X configurator tools since at the very latest 2000. I'm reasonably certain they predated that by some significant number of years, be could not say how early exactly without research. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] An alternative to renaming [was Re: Proposed change in behaviour for ascii: eudev net.ifnames]
Quoting Didier Kryn (k...@in2p3.fr): > Alessandro, Narcis, Rick, > > You have plenty of technical skills and usefull ideas. Could you > please concentrate on these. Since this site is also about KISS, I > bet some people (like me) would really like to know how to get the > best of Xorg with a KISS hotplugger (Mdev), and what the limitations > would be. > > The philosophical discussion on electrical starters is going > pretty off-topic, don't you think. (To my knowledge, I'm the only Rick who's recently posted.) Just a point: I've steered clear of said off-topic philosophical discussion, and spoken only on the subthreads about X configuration and about fvwm/SLiM. Thank you for your concern about topicality, which I share. (I have occasionally misjudged, and then tried to do better.) ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] An alternative to renaming [was Re: Proposed change in behaviour for ascii: eudev net.ifnames]
El 24/08/17 a les 11:33, Edward Bartolo ha escrit: > Quote by Karl Hammar: "There are several drawback useing the old > transformer + rectifier design. Of main consern is the current spikes > seen on the power grid when the diodes starts to conduct. Your power > supplier don't like them and that is why we have PFC to make the unit > behave more like a resistor to the power grid." > > If PFC stands for Power Factor Correction, using a switching power > supply doesn't free one from using rectification of the mains to power > the switching transistors. The rectifier diodes will also have current > spikes and we are essentially back to square one. With 3 phase power > rectification the current spikes can be greatly reduced as the > rectified voltage output from the rectifier without a smoothing > capacitor never goes below ~85% of peak. > > If voltage rectification was such a problem, all devices/appliances > that have to use a DC voltage source would be at blame, which is > clearly not the case. Power Factor Correction enters the equation when > loads having a substantial inductive component exist. This is the case > when certain types of motors are used. Three phase motors do not > produce a significant inductive load if they are well designed. This > is also true of transformers given their primaries are well designed > to keep the magnetising currents at a minimum. > > For voltage rectification Power Factor Correction (PFC) is not an > issue. If this is a new issue that older text books about > electricity/electronics did not discuss, please direct me to your > sources of information. > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng > ...Volkswagen...soviet...assassination...mom ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] An alternative to renaming [was Re: Proposed change in behaviour for ascii: eudev net.ifnames]
Thanks for the reference. It was a very interesting reading. I really appreciated it. -- If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. (Albert Einstein) If you cannot make abstructions about details you do not understand the concepts underlying them. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] An alternative to renaming [was Re: Proposed change in behaviour for ascii: eudev net.ifnames]
Edward Bartolo: ... > For voltage rectification Power Factor Correction (PFC) is not an > issue. ... For ac input, diodes gives you awful ac input currents, see e.g fig. 2 in: http://www.vishay.com/docs/88868/anpfc.pdf which is (somewhat) corrected by PFC. It has nothing to do with a switch mode power supply per se, the problem is in the rectifier. Any further questions will answered off-list. Regards, /Karl Hammar --- Aspö Data Lilla Aspö 148 S-742 94 Östhammar Sweden +46 173 140 57 ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] An alternative to renaming [was Re: Proposed change in behaviour for ascii: eudev net.ifnames]
Rick Moen [2017-08-23 23:32]: > Quoting Harald Arnesen (har...@skogtun.org): > >> >> Manual Xorg configuration is so tedious, time consuming and error >> >> prone that requiring users to be capable of it is just crazy. >> > Au contraire: Even if you had nothing besides Xorg (or previously >> > XFree86) itself, in almost all cases you could just do 'Xorg -configure >> >> /etc/X11/Xorg.conf' and nothing else. However, pretty nearly all >> > distributions provided even-easier X configurator tools. >> >> When? Not when I started using Linux. > > At the very latest by RHL7, which was released in 1994. Red Hat's > easy/GUI X configuration tool was called Xconfigurator.[1] I vaguely > recall that SUSE and Debian, among many others, had various other ones > with a variety of names. Red Hat 7 was released in 2000, according to Wikipedia. I remember using Red Hat 3.0.3 in 1996 and 4.2 (the last using libc5) for a time in 1997-98. They had an X configuration tool that didn't work for me. They also shipped the Metro-X server, which also didn't work on my machine. -- Hilsen Harald ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] An alternative to renaming [was Re: Proposed change in behaviour for ascii: eudev net.ifnames]
On Thu, 24 Aug 2017 10:18:37 +0200, Alessandro wrote in message <20170824101837.255a0b19@ayu>: > > ..you missed my "e.g.", and my point. ;o) > > Which is a moot example, as systemd can be done away with. ..precisely like yourself. EOD. -- ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen ...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry... Scenarios always come in sets of three: best case, worst case, and just in case. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] An alternative to renaming [was Re: Proposed change in behaviour for ascii: eudev net.ifnames]
Le 24/08/2017 à 10:18, Alessandro Selli a écrit : On Wed, 23 Aug 2017 at 23:18:19 +0200 Arnt Karlsen wrote: On Wed, 23 Aug 2017 18:00:12 +0200, Alessandro wrote in message <20170823180012.327dbdc8@ayu>: On Wed, 23 Aug 2017 at 14:22:34 +0200 Arnt Karlsen wrote: On Wed, 23 Aug 2017 09:34:49 +0200, Alessandro wrote in message : On 22/08/2017 at 13:36, Arnt Karlsen wrote: On Tue, 22 Aug 2017 03:38:50 +0200, Adam wrote in message <20170822013850.ute5cf7ycrlvc...@angband.pl>: There are cases when the old way had its merit -- but here, we have an equivalent of a car that needs to be started with a hand-crank. ..you may have missed "Brave New World" by Aldous Huxley and George Orwell's "1984", or at the very least, the main point of these 2 books and your own nation's history, in these Trumpian times. ..an hand-crank car keeps you in control of what's going on around you, if you pay attention. Why do you think an electric motor cannot do the same? ..straw man, an electric motor cannot do the same without AI taking control away from you. Please let me know what AI did the Wolkswagen Beetle have? ..never heard of those, I've only seen Volkswagens of various models. So you agree that stating that "an electric motor cannot do the same without AI taking control away from you" is BS as you can and do have electric powered actuators without any AI. ..only thing I'm aware of in mom's 1967 1300 Beetle, is the presence of [...] (tons of useless, OT crap removed) Your new shiny AI car may decide to kill you to save e.g. "a more worthy person" from something really, really bad, e.g. Trumpian embarrasment, e.g. because you pay attention to what's going on around you. ;oD First off, an electric engine starter does not have to have any AI built-in. The XX century auto industry proved it. ..and the XXI'st is now disproving it. Present day technology cannot change the past. Car electric starters did not have any AI, they relied completely on the human who turned the key to work. ..you never seen Soviet Politburo pictures "evolve"? ;o) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship_of_images_in_the_Soviet_Union#Censorship_of_historical_photographs Mind you, editing pictures is not changing the past. The example you quote proves my point: how do you know those pictures were edited? Because they do not reflect what actually happened. ..similar discoveries can be found on checking e.g. 9/11 stories on WTC online against pre-9/11 encyclopedia entries on WTC of the kind printed on paper before W. was "elected" president in 2000 and that can be found in brick-n-mortar libraries. ;o) Secondly, AI is not inherently a user alien technology, no more that computers are per se a tools against the users. It all depends on who is in charge. ..precisely my point. Do you intend to live without computers? Your choice. ..not really, not a viable long term solution. So, why are you making all this fuss? Just to play the Luddite without any intention to live according to your philosophies? As there is software that puts the user in charge (Free/OS software) and software that deprives the user of any freedom (proprietary software), so there is AI that just serves users and AI that controls them. ..e.g. systemd is capable of "getting it done" both ways. ;o) My home PCs do not have it. ..you missed my "e.g.", and my point. ;o) Which is a moot example, as systemd can be done away with. If this could not be, then your only option would be forsaking IT altogether. ..maybe. Eventually, that too will fail, we mere mortals risk getting targeted "as Islamists" for _not_ carrying cell phones: https://theintercept.com/2014/02/10/the-nsas-secret-role/ https://theintercept.com/drone-papers/firing-blind/ https://theintercept.com/2017/08/21/trump-may-not-survive-his-term-but-the-assassination-complex-will/ I did not read anywhere people without cellphones are/will be targeted as islamists, and I fail to understand how you could think those articles and the facts they relate have anything to do with AI ..try read them again. ;o) So, you too cannot point out any relevant line. Slowly, so you can test them against your own beliefs. It's not a matter of beliefs, it's just that as a matter of fact those pieces do not state anywhere that "people without cellphones are/will be targeted as islamists". Quite the opposite in fact, as they show how US agencies track islamists through their cellphones, which shows that they actually do make use of them. ..thenafter, chances are you may see part of the quite likely unlikeable future that I can see coming. To be able to "see the future" one ought to be capable of seeing and understanding the present at the very least. [...] and car starters. ..not much. And, I see Italian history is quite different from Polish history, which may be part of the context you miss throwing around strawmen. The fact you fail provi
Re: [DNG] An alternative to renaming [was Re: Proposed change in behaviour for ascii: eudev net.ifnames]
On Thursday 24 August 2017 at 10:24:56, Narcis Garcia wrote: > ...Wolkswagen Beetle ... > ...Volkswagens of various models > ...mom's 1967 1300 Beetle... > ...Soviet Politburo pictures "evolve"... > ...trump-may-not-survive-his-term-but-the-assassination-complex-will... > ...Italian history is quite different from Polish history... > > What are you talking about? > It's difficult for non-native english speaking people to feel sense to > this kind of threads in a list supposed to be about Devuan GNU+Linux 1. Well said. 2. You don't have to be a non-native English speaker to realise that a lot of this off-topic drivel does not make sense. 3. To those who have been posting it - please stop, and get back on-topic about making Devuan a better distribution. Antony. -- Why is "dylexia" so difficult to spell, and why can I never remember "aphasia" when I want to? Please reply to the list; please *don't* CC me. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] An alternative to renaming [was Re: Proposed change in behaviour for ascii: eudev net.ifnames]
...Wolkswagen Beetle ... ...Volkswagens of various models ...mom's 1967 1300 Beetle... ...Soviet Politburo pictures "evolve"... ...trump-may-not-survive-his-term-but-the-assassination-complex-will... ...Italian history is quite different from Polish history... What are you talking about? It's difficult for non-native english speaking people to feel sense to this kind of threads in a list supposed to be about Devuan GNU+Linux ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] An alternative to renaming [was Re: Proposed change in behaviour for ascii: eudev net.ifnames]
On Wed, 23 Aug 2017 at 23:18:19 +0200 Arnt Karlsen wrote: > On Wed, 23 Aug 2017 18:00:12 +0200, Alessandro wrote in message > <20170823180012.327dbdc8@ayu>: > >> On Wed, 23 Aug 2017 at 14:22:34 +0200 >> Arnt Karlsen wrote: >> >>> On Wed, 23 Aug 2017 09:34:49 +0200, Alessandro wrote in message >>> : >>> On 22/08/2017 at 13:36, Arnt Karlsen wrote: > On Tue, 22 Aug 2017 03:38:50 +0200, Adam wrote in message > <20170822013850.ute5cf7ycrlvc...@angband.pl>: > >> There are cases when the old way had its merit -- but here, we >> have an equivalent of a car that needs to be started with a >> hand-crank. > > ..you may have missed "Brave New World" by Aldous Huxley and > George Orwell's "1984", or at the very least, the main point of > these 2 books and your own nation's history, in these Trumpian > times. > > ..an hand-crank car keeps you in control of what's going on around > you, if you pay attention. Why do you think an electric motor cannot do the same? >>> >>> ..straw man, an electric motor cannot do the same without >>> AI taking control away from you. >> >> Please let me know what AI did the Wolkswagen Beetle have? > > ..never heard of those, I've only seen Volkswagens of various models. So you agree that stating that "an electric motor cannot do the same without AI taking control away from you" is BS as you can and do have electric powered actuators without any AI. > ..only thing I'm aware of in mom's 1967 1300 Beetle, is the presence of [...] (tons of useless, OT crap removed) > Your new shiny AI car may decide to kill you to > save e.g. "a more worthy person" from something really, really > bad, e.g. Trumpian embarrasment, e.g. because you pay attention to > what's going on around you. ;oD First off, an electric engine starter does not have to have any AI built-in. The XX century auto industry proved it. >>> >>> ..and the XXI'st is now disproving it. >> >> Present day technology cannot change the past. Car electric >> starters did not have any AI, they relied completely on the human who >> turned the key to work. > > ..you never seen Soviet Politburo pictures "evolve"? ;o) > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship_of_images_in_the_Soviet_Union#Censorship_of_historical_photographs Mind you, editing pictures is not changing the past. The example you quote proves my point: how do you know those pictures were edited? Because they do not reflect what actually happened. > ..similar discoveries can be found on checking e.g. 9/11 stories on WTC > online against pre-9/11 encyclopedia entries on WTC of the kind printed > on paper before W. was "elected" president in 2000 and that can be > found in brick-n-mortar libraries. ;o) > Secondly, AI is not inherently a user alien technology, no more that computers are per se a tools against the users. It all depends on who is in charge. >>> >>> ..precisely my point. >> >> Do you intend to live without computers? >> Your choice. > > ..not really, not a viable long term solution. So, why are you making all this fuss? Just to play the Luddite without any intention to live according to your philosophies? As there is software that puts the user in charge (Free/OS software) and software that deprives the user of any freedom (proprietary software), so there is AI that just serves users and AI that controls them. >>> >>> ..e.g. systemd is capable of "getting it done" both ways. ;o) >> >> My home PCs do not have it. > > ..you missed my "e.g.", and my point. ;o) Which is a moot example, as systemd can be done away with. If this could not be, then your only option would be forsaking IT altogether. >>> >>> ..maybe. Eventually, that too will fail, we mere mortals risk >>> getting targeted "as Islamists" for _not_ carrying cell phones: >>> https://theintercept.com/2014/02/10/the-nsas-secret-role/ >>> https://theintercept.com/drone-papers/firing-blind/ >>> https://theintercept.com/2017/08/21/trump-may-not-survive-his-term-but-the-assassination-complex-will/ >>> >> >> I did not read anywhere people without cellphones are/will be >> targeted as islamists, and I fail to understand how you could think >> those articles and the facts they relate have anything to do with AI > > ..try read them again. ;o) So, you too cannot point out any relevant line. > Slowly, so you can test them against your own beliefs. It's not a matter of beliefs, it's just that as a matter of fact those pieces do not state anywhere that "people without cellphones are/will be targeted as islamists". Quite the opposite in fact, as they show how US agencies track islamists through their cellphones, which shows that they actually do make use of them. > ..thenafter, chances are you may see part of the quite > likely unlikeable future that I can see comi
Re: [DNG] An alternative to renaming [was Re: Proposed change in behaviour for ascii: eudev net.ifnames]
Edward Bartolo: ... > For instance, a mains transformer based power supply, normally has a > far longer life than a switched mode power supply, although the latter ... There are several drawback useing the old transformer + rectifier design. Of main consern is the current spikes seen on the power grid when the diodes starts to conduct. Your power supplier don't like them and that is why we have PFC to make the unit behave more like a resistor to the power grid. Regards, /Karl Hammar --- Aspö Data Lilla Aspö 148 S-742 94 Östhammar Sweden +46 173 140 57 ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] An alternative to renaming [was Re: Proposed change in behaviour for ascii: eudev net.ifnames]
Quoting Harald Arnesen (har...@skogtun.org): > >> Manual Xorg configuration is so tedious, time consuming and error > >> prone that requiring users to be capable of it is just crazy. > > Au contraire: Even if you had nothing besides Xorg (or previously > > XFree86) itself, in almost all cases you could just do 'Xorg -configure > >> /etc/X11/Xorg.conf' and nothing else. However, pretty nearly all > > distributions provided even-easier X configurator tools. > > When? Not when I started using Linux. At the very latest by RHL7, which was released in 1994. Red Hat's easy/GUI X configuration tool was called Xconfigurator.[1] I vaguely recall that SUSE and Debian, among many others, had various other ones with a variety of names. (This having been in the early/mid 1990s, it was of course for XFree86, not Xorg.) If you started using Linux in 1991-1993, then, sure, distributions then did _not_ include even-easier X configurator tools, and you would have a very peculiar yet technically valid edge-case point, for which, here, have a cookie. ;-> But then, if you are indeed as old an old-timer as I am, I'm extremely surprised you are not fully aware of when this changed. But, anyway: If you wish to go install a bunch of ancient Linux distros and report back, have fun! [1] See, e.g., ftp://www-uxsup.csx.cam.ac.uk/pub/doc/redhat/redhat7/rhl-aig-en-7.0/s1-guimode-xconf.html ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] An alternative to renaming [was Re: Proposed change in behaviour for ascii: eudev net.ifnames]
Alessandro: > On 22/08/2017 at 02:01, Rick Moen wrote: > > Quoting Adam Borowski (kilob...@angband.pl): > > > >> Manually creating the configuration -- or even manually triggering its > >> creation -- is a pretty bad idea. It just guarantees you won't have > >> working X when you make any change to your hardware -- and sometimes > >> software as well. Manually creating xorg.conf is required if you e.g. has a serial (rs232) mouse. It is also req. if you want to be able to use the serverlayout feature, say if you want to be able to start X with a screen dimention of 800x640 for testing without a virtual screen size or having several X servers running on different vt's with different (non-virtual) screen sizes. ... > Not having to login as root to manually configure Xorg just to change > video card or monitor was one of the best and most wanted improvements in > Linux in the past 10 years. Manual Xorg configuration is so tedious, time > consuming and error prone that requiring users to be capable of it is just > crazy. This xorg.conf: # cat /etc/X11/xorg.conf Section "ServerFlags" Option "AutoAddDevices" "off" EndSection works like a charm on my laptop, everything is autodetected by X. I can plug in usb kbd's and mice, which will be directly usable in X. That system has no udev installed nor running, and using a plain old static /dev. And, yes, thoose who aren't using the "us" kbd layout will want to have a keyboard section or using xmodmap in their .xinitrc. The possible only thing missing is autodetecting kbd layout, do udev detect that ? There is absolutely no need at all to fiddle with xorg.conf for a vidio card or monitor change unless you want a non-default setup. For a monitor, you only need to specify a monitor section in xorg.conf if your monitor doesn't support edid, i.e. for ancient monitors. I don't see what udev actually provides of value for the X server. Regards, /Karl Hammar --- Aspö Data Lilla Aspö 148 S-742 94 Östhammar Sweden +46 173 140 57 ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] An alternative to renaming [was Re: Proposed change in behaviour for ascii: eudev net.ifnames]
Quoting Alessandro Selli (alessandrose...@linux.com):
> On Wed, 23 Aug 2017 at 10:06:26 -0700
> Rick Moen wrote:
> > Quoting Alessandro Selli (alessandrose...@linux.com):
> >
> >> Not having to login as root to manually configure Xorg just to change
> >> video card or monitor was one of the best and most wanted improvements in
> >> Linux in the past 10 years.
> >
> > I'm sure, but on the other hand, how often did that happen? Extremely
> > seldom.
>
> How often did *what* happen?
What you spoke of.
Which is why I interleaved the quotation from your posting for context.
{sigh} This starting point suggests why there's no future in this
present discussion.
[disregarding the rest]
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Re: [DNG] An alternative to renaming [was Re: Proposed change in behaviour for ascii: eudev net.ifnames]
On Wed, 23 Aug 2017 18:00:12 +0200, Alessandro wrote in message <20170823180012.327dbdc8@ayu>: > On Wed, 23 Aug 2017 at 14:22:34 +0200 > Arnt Karlsen wrote: > > > On Wed, 23 Aug 2017 09:34:49 +0200, Alessandro wrote in message > > : > > > >> On 22/08/2017 at 13:36, Arnt Karlsen wrote: > >>> On Tue, 22 Aug 2017 03:38:50 +0200, Adam wrote in message > >>> <20170822013850.ute5cf7ycrlvc...@angband.pl>: > >>> > There are cases when the old way had its merit -- but here, we > have an equivalent of a car that needs to be started with a > hand-crank. > >>> > >>> ..you may have missed "Brave New World" by Aldous Huxley and > >>> George Orwell's "1984", or at the very least, the main point of > >>> these 2 books and your own nation's history, in these Trumpian > >>> times. > >>> > >>> ..an hand-crank car keeps you in control of what's going on around > >>> you, if you pay attention. > >> > >> Why do you think an electric motor cannot do the same? > > > > ..straw man, an electric motor cannot do the same without > > AI taking control away from you. > > Please let me know what AI did the Wolkswagen Beetle have? ..never heard of those, I've only seen Volkswagens of various models. ..only thing I'm aware of in mom's 1967 1300 Beetle, is the presence of 2 hand cranks for the windows, the absence of any hand crank for the motor, and the presence of a tuned 1500 engine block that survived it's tuner's final test run. Crazy low end and crazy low idle, 60rpm, at 80rpm it could be nursed out of idle with the gas pedal, at 100rpm it would hesitate for a second before responding to the gas pedal, and at 125rpm, it didn't. ;o) ..everything else other than the block and I suspect the cam shaft, was stock 1967 1300. Pedal to the metal, and it beat bikes, but it ran out of breath at high rpms. Give it 1/4 to a 1/3 pedal, and it would creep up forever. I suspect the cam had a crazy delay on inlet valve closure, letting the motor "blow back out what it didn't need" at idle, and "slamming the door behind the inlet charge as it crashed into the piston crown" as the motor spooled up. Easy to crank by hand on the dynamo pulley. ..and I can confirm VW Beetles will start to "rotate" at 100knots or whatever the speed is when the needle points to the oil (or charge?) lamp to left of the blinky turn light, and produce a nice GA-style "landing-on-dry-tarmac" chirp if you hit the brakes late enough and soon enough, or you'll wind up like the tuner. ..having gone from the curious "Hum, how fast _is_ that speed phantom going, hum, he's still pulling away", I may have matched AI processing performance going "Hum, why is the steering acting up like aquaplaning I read about somewhere, and on dry asphalt too? (I was a newbie driver) Hum, didn't I also read somewhere about Beetles having 5 kilograms of front axle pressure at 125km/h, and yeah, didn't that 1500 block back there come from a wreck, and the tuner guy was a VW mechanic and an experienced driver, so he may have gotten himself into something similar and reacted like most experienced people advice to do on aquaplaning, and on dry asphalt, that would flip his ride, hum, let's try stomp the brakes first, and only then ease away from the ditch..." ..I recall seeing the Beetle move maybe 5 meters as I made up my mind. :o) ..great enough straw man? ;o) > >>> Your new shiny AI car may decide to kill you to > >>> save e.g. "a more worthy person" from something really, really > >>> bad, e.g. Trumpian embarrasment, e.g. because you pay attention to > >>> what's going on around you. ;oD > >> > >> First off, an electric engine starter does not have to have any > >> AI built-in. The XX century auto industry proved it. > > > > ..and the XXI'st is now disproving it. > > Present day technology cannot change the past. Car electric > starters did not have any AI, they relied completely on the human who > turned the key to work. ..you never seen Soviet Politburo pictures "evolve"? ;o) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship_of_images_in_the_Soviet_Union#Censorship_of_historical_photographs ..similar discoveries can be found on checking e.g. 9/11 stories on WTC online against pre-9/11 encyclopedia entries on WTC of the kind printed on paper before W. was "elected" president in 2000 and that can be found in brick-n-mortar libraries. ;o) > >> Secondly, AI is not inherently a user alien technology, no more > >> that computers are per se a tools against the users. It all > >> depends on who is in charge. > > > > ..precisely my point. > > Do you intend to live without computers? > Your choice. ..not really, not a viable long term solution. > >> As there is software that puts the user in charge (Free/OS > >> software) and software that deprives the user of any freedom > >> (proprietary software), so there is AI that just serves users and > >> AI that controls them. > > > > ..e.g. systemd is capable of "getting it done" b
Re: [DNG] An alternative to renaming [was Re: Proposed change in behaviour for ascii: eudev net.ifnames]
Rick Moen [2017-08-23 19:06]: > Quoting Alessandro Selli (alessandrose...@linux.com): > >> Not having to login as root to manually configure Xorg just to change >> video card or monitor was one of the best and most wanted improvements in >> Linux in the past 10 years. > I'm sure, but on the other hand, how often did that happen? Extremely > seldom. Always. >> Manual Xorg configuration is so tedious, time consuming and error >> prone that requiring users to be capable of it is just crazy. > Au contraire: Even if you had nothing besides Xorg (or previously > XFree86) itself, in almost all cases you could just do 'Xorg -configure >> /etc/X11/Xorg.conf' and nothing else. However, pretty nearly all > distributions provided even-easier X configurator tools. When? Not when I started using Linux. -- Hilsen Harald ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] An alternative to renaming [was Re: Proposed change in behaviour for ascii: eudev net.ifnames]
On Wed, 23 Aug 2017 at 18:50:35 +0200 Edward Bartolo wrote: > Sometimes there are advantages in opting to use the old way. Sometimes. But electric car starters are not anything new, they were patented in 1911, 15 years after they were first produced, at a time when Artificial Intelligence meant nothing. And there is a reason things evolve, expecially in technology. They do not always evolve the right way, but I see no reason to abandon mature technology (like Xorg autoconfiguration capabilities) for something old and impractical just because in the old times we all did things that way (cursing and yelling at the blank monitor's message: "Mode unsupported"). Alessandro ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] An alternative to renaming [was Re: Proposed change in behaviour for ascii: eudev net.ifnames]
On Wed, 23 Aug 2017 at 10:06:26 -0700 Rick Moen wrote: > Quoting Alessandro Selli (alessandrose...@linux.com): > >> Not having to login as root to manually configure Xorg just to change >> video card or monitor was one of the best and most wanted improvements in >> Linux in the past 10 years. > > I'm sure, but on the other hand, how often did that happen? Extremely > seldom. How often did *what* happen? That one has to reconfigure Xorg because of a card/monitor change? On desktops the monitor seldom changes, the graphics card a few times. On laptops the video card never does, the secondary display (aka external monitor) often does. So what? What does one gain making Xorg configuration static? Close to nothing. What does one lose? A lot. Having to login as root to reconfigure Xorg by hand is a show-stopper in several places, like where I work: people who use the firm's PCs are usually not given administrative credentials, they never do when they're not employees. And even many who do cannot manually tune Xorg's config file, because they've never seen one. And why should they do? Xorg can self-configure when hardware changes, why drop a very useful feature because it's seldom necessary (but when it is not having it can be a nightmare)? >> Manual Xorg configuration is so tedious, time consuming and error >> prone that requiring users to be capable of it is just crazy. > > Au contraire: Even if you had nothing besides Xorg (or previously > XFree86) itself, in almost all cases you could just do 'Xorg -configure >> /etc/X11/Xorg.conf' and nothing else. If Xorg fails to autoconfigure on some hardware, very likely automatic config file generation is going to fail or it will not work on that hardware. > However, pretty nearly all > distributions provided even-easier X configurator tools. What is Devuan's? > Many long years ago during the XFree86 era, different chipset > necessitated installing individual X server packages, so, if you > switched cards, you often needed to not only reconfigure X but also > install a new X11 server package. That was burdensome -- but, again, > how often do you wake up one morning and say 'I know! I'm going to > install a different video card today!' And that bit was ages ago. Yeah, that was ages ago, and it has no relevance to today's case. I remember those days, when lots of people would update to the latest Matrox/Ati/3d-fx/nVidia card as soon as it was out to get the latest GLX support which was needed by some game or by GoogleEarth. > Perspective, not just a dictionary word. Indeed. Alessandro ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] An alternative to renaming [was Re: Proposed change in behaviour for ascii: eudev net.ifnames]
On Wed, 23 Aug 2017 18:50:35 +0200, Edward wrote in message : > Sometimes there are advantages in opting to use the old way. > > For instance, a mains transformer based power supply, normally has a > far longer life than a switched mode power supply, although the latter > offer the advantage of supplying far higher currents at lower DC > voltages. Still, for an old electronics engineer, provided a 3 phase > power supply is available, very high DC current outputs are possible > with a ripple of only 15% of peak voltage. This performance can be > achieved even without a smoothing capacitor! [For those who want the > exact percentage, it is a matter of solving an equation containing a > couple of sines. Draw 3 sine waves with the same amplitude but reflect > the negative have cycles into the x-axis. Then solve for the > intersection points.] > > So, the musty fusty old ways cannot be completely forgotten. In this > case, if you want very long term reliability you have to use the old > way. > > My little motto is: use the best fitting technology available without > giving undue consideration to whether its old or new. ..even that approach can fail you, if your occupation etc power e.g. require you wear some kind of tracking device, e.g. the funny hats Catholic and Protestant European Feudal powers made Jews wear during the last millenium, served as tracking devices, as anyone seeing such funny hats immediately knew the guys wearing them were Jews. ..cell phones are no different these days, and the anonymous drone operator cited in: https://theintercept.com/2014/02/10/the-nsas-secret-role/ is crystal clear: “It’s really like we’re targeting a cell phone. We’re not going after people – we’re going after their phones, in the hopes that the person on the other end of that missile is the bad guy.” ..the "best fitting technology available" today is whatever makes you look like Boring Joe Average, making undue consideration of what best best way to serve your own ass, rather than what _is_ best. -- ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen ...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry... Scenarios always come in sets of three: best case, worst case, and just in case. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] An alternative to renaming [was Re: Proposed change in behaviour for ascii: eudev net.ifnames]
Quoting Alessandro Selli (alessandrose...@linux.com): > Not having to login as root to manually configure Xorg just to change > video card or monitor was one of the best and most wanted improvements in > Linux in the past 10 years. I'm sure, but on the other hand, how often did that happen? Extremely seldom. > Manual Xorg configuration is so tedious, time consuming and error > prone that requiring users to be capable of it is just crazy. Au contraire: Even if you had nothing besides Xorg (or previously XFree86) itself, in almost all cases you could just do 'Xorg -configure > /etc/X11/Xorg.conf' and nothing else. However, pretty nearly all distributions provided even-easier X configurator tools. Many long years ago during the XFree86 era, different chipset necessitated installing individual X server packages, so, if you switched cards, you often needed to not only reconfigure X but also install a new X11 server package. That was burdensome -- but, again, how often do you wake up one morning and say 'I know! I'm going to install a different video card today!' And that bit was ages ago. Perspective, not just a dictionary word. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] An alternative to renaming [was Re: Proposed change in behaviour for ascii: eudev net.ifnames]
On Wed, 23 Aug 2017 at 14:22:34 +0200 Arnt Karlsen wrote: > On Wed, 23 Aug 2017 09:34:49 +0200, Alessandro wrote in message > : > >> On 22/08/2017 at 13:36, Arnt Karlsen wrote: >>> On Tue, 22 Aug 2017 03:38:50 +0200, Adam wrote in message >>> <20170822013850.ute5cf7ycrlvc...@angband.pl>: >>> There are cases when the old way had its merit -- but here, we have an equivalent of a car that needs to be started with a hand-crank. >>> >>> ..you may have missed "Brave New World" by Aldous Huxley and George >>> Orwell's "1984", or at the very least, the main point of these 2 >>> books and your own nation's history, in these Trumpian times. >>> >>> ..an hand-crank car keeps you in control of what's going on around >>> you, if you pay attention. >> >> Why do you think an electric motor cannot do the same? > > ..straw man, an electric motor cannot do the same without > AI taking control away from you. Please let me know what AI did the Wolkswagen Beetle have? >>> Your new shiny AI car may decide to kill you to >>> save e.g. "a more worthy person" from something really, really bad, >>> e.g. Trumpian embarrasment, e.g. because you pay attention to >>> what's going on around you. ;oD >> >> First off, an electric engine starter does not have to have any AI >> built-in. The XX century auto industry proved it. > > ..and the XXI'st is now disproving it. Present day technology cannot change the past. Car electric starters did not have any AI, they relied completely on the human who turned the key to work. >> Secondly, AI is not inherently a user alien technology, no more that >> computers are per se a tools against the users. It all depends on >> who is in charge. > > ..precisely my point. Do you intend to live without computers? Your choice. >> As there is software that puts the user in charge (Free/OS software) >> and software that deprives the user of any freedom (proprietary >> software), so there is AI that just serves users and AI that controls >> them. > > ..e.g. systemd is capable of "getting it done" both ways. ;o) My home PCs do not have it. >> If this could not be, then your only option would be forsaking >> IT altogether. > > ..maybe. Eventually, that too will fail, we mere mortals risk > getting targeted "as Islamists" for _not_ carrying cell phones: > https://theintercept.com/2014/02/10/the-nsas-secret-role/ > https://theintercept.com/drone-papers/firing-blind/ > https://theintercept.com/2017/08/21/trump-may-not-survive-his-term-but-the-assassination-complex-will/ I did not read anywhere people without cellphones are/will be targeted as islamists, and I fail to understand how you could think those articles and the facts they relate have anything to do with AI and car starters. Alessandro ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] An alternative to renaming [was Re: Proposed change in behaviour for ascii: eudev net.ifnames]
On Wed, 23 Aug 2017 09:34:49 +0200, Alessandro wrote in message : > On 22/08/2017 at 13:36, Arnt Karlsen wrote: > > On Tue, 22 Aug 2017 03:38:50 +0200, Adam wrote in message > > <20170822013850.ute5cf7ycrlvc...@angband.pl>: > > > >> There are cases when the old way had its merit -- but here, we > >> have an equivalent of a car that needs to be started with a > >> hand-crank. > > > > ..you may have missed "Brave New World" by Aldous Huxley and George > > Orwell's "1984", or at the very least, the main point of these 2 > > books and your own nation's history, in these Trumpian times. > > > > ..an hand-crank car keeps you in control of what's going on around > > you, if you pay attention. > > Why do you think an electric motor cannot do the same? ..straw man, an electric motor cannot do the same without AI taking control away from you. > > Your new shiny AI car may decide to kill you to > > save e.g. "a more worthy person" from something really, really bad, > > e.g. Trumpian embarrasment, e.g. because you pay attention to > > what's going on around you. ;oD > > First off, an electric engine starter does not have to have any AI > built-in. The XX century auto industry proved it. ..and the XXI'st is now disproving it. > Secondly, AI is not inherently a user alien technology, no more that > computers are per se a tools against the users. It all depends on > who is in charge. ..precisely my point. > As there is software that puts the user in charge (Free/OS software) > and software that deprives the user of any freedom (proprietary > software), so there is AI that just serves users and AI that controls > them. ..e.g. systemd is capable of "getting it done" both ways. ;o) > If this could not be, then your only option would be forsaking > IT altogether. ..maybe. Eventually, that too will fail, we mere mortals risk getting targeted "as Islamists" for _not_ carrying cell phones: https://theintercept.com/2014/02/10/the-nsas-secret-role/ https://theintercept.com/drone-papers/firing-blind/ https://theintercept.com/2017/08/21/trump-may-not-survive-his-term-but-the-assassination-complex-will/ -- ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen ...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry... Scenarios always come in sets of three: best case, worst case, and just in case. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] An alternative to renaming [was Re: Proposed change in behaviour for ascii: eudev net.ifnames]
On Wed, Aug 23, 2017 at 09:51:46AM +0200, Alessandro Selli wrote: > On 22/08/2017 at 15:36, Didier Kryn wrote: > > > The advantage of supporting an option like "hwaddr=a0:d3:c1:9d:a5:86" > > is that the admin is free to specify interfaces by names or by MAC > > address. Of course, there is now the possibility to change the MAC address > > of an interface, but this is a case of severe hacking where the admin has > > to understand what s?he does. > > I wholeheartedly agree. > > Actually, changing an interface's MAC address is not at all "severe > hacking", it's as easy as running ip link set address 00:e0:4d:78:5b:5b dev > eth0, but a boot script needs not do that and anyway there are tools that > can extract the MAC address directly from the hardware. At the time of an udev hook (which ifrename and ifupdown's "allow hotplug" are then called from), the MAC address couldn't have possibly been changed yet, other than by an udev hook of a higher priority. This is actually problematic: some network hardware (especially on cheap ARM SoCs) has no built-in MAC address, thus it needs to be set in software. Sometimes it's done based on a serial number of the whole machine (thus useless for interface renaming), sometimes it's outright random. -- ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀ ⣾⠁⢰⠒⠀⣿⡁ Vat kind uf sufficiently advanced technology iz dis!? ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀-- Genghis Ht'rok'din ⠈⠳⣄ ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] An alternative to renaming [was Re: Proposed change in behaviour for ascii: eudev net.ifnames]
Le 23/08/2017 à 09:51, Alessandro Selli a écrit : Actually, changing an interface's MAC address is not at all "severe hacking", it's as easy as running ip link set address 00:e0:4d:78:5b:5b dev eth0 By "severe", I didn't mean "difficult" :-) Didier ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] An alternative to renaming [was Re: Proposed change in behaviour for ascii: eudev net.ifnames]
On 22/08/2017 at 15:36, Didier Kryn wrote: [...] > The advantage of supporting an option like "hwaddr=a0:d3:c1:9d:a5:86" > is that the admin is free to specify interfaces by names or by MAC > address. Of course, there is now the possibility to change the MAC address > of an interface, but this is a case of severe hacking where the admin has > to understand what s?he does. I wholeheartedly agree. Actually, changing an interface's MAC address is not at all "severe hacking", it's as easy as running ip link set address 00:e0:4d:78:5b:5b dev eth0, but a boot script needs not do that and anyway there are tools that can extract the MAC address directly from the hardware. Alessandro ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] An alternative to renaming [was Re: Proposed change in behaviour for ascii: eudev net.ifnames]
On 22/08/2017 at 02:01, Rick Moen wrote: > Quoting Adam Borowski (kilob...@angband.pl): > >> Manually creating the configuration -- or even manually triggering its >> creation -- is a pretty bad idea. It just guarantees you won't have >> working X when you make any change to your hardware -- and sometimes >> software as well. > > Gosh, what you call a bad idea was utterly routine and what everyone was > used to for decades. You simply knew that, if you changed your video > chipset or changed to a radically different pointing device, or if you > wanted to do something very different like Xinerama, you'd need to > generate a new one. Not having to login as root to manually configure Xorg just to change video card or monitor was one of the best and most wanted improvements in Linux in the past 10 years. Manual Xorg configuration is so tedious, time consuming and error prone that requiring users to be capable of it is just crazy. Alessandro ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] An alternative to renaming [was Re: Proposed change in behaviour for ascii: eudev net.ifnames]
On 22/08/2017 at 13:36, Arnt Karlsen wrote: > On Tue, 22 Aug 2017 03:38:50 +0200, Adam wrote in message > <20170822013850.ute5cf7ycrlvc...@angband.pl>: > >> There are cases when the old way had its merit -- but here, we have an >> equivalent of a car that needs to be started with a hand-crank. > > ..you may have missed "Brave New World" by Aldous Huxley and George > Orwell's "1984", or at the very least, the main point of these 2 books > and your own nation's history, in these Trumpian times. > > ..an hand-crank car keeps you in control of what's going on around you, > if you pay attention. Why do you think an electric motor cannot do the same? > Your new shiny AI car may decide to kill you to > save e.g. "a more worthy person" from something really, really bad, e.g. > Trumpian embarrasment, e.g. because you pay attention to what's going > on around you. ;oD First off, an electric engine starter does not have to have any AI built-in. The XX century auto industry proved it. Secondly, AI is not inherently a user alien technology, no more that computers are per se a tools against the users. It all depends on who is in charge. As there is software that puts the user in charge (Free/OS software) and software that deprives the user of any freedom (proprietary software), so there is AI that just serves users and AI that controls them. If this could not be, then your only option would be forsaking IT altogether. Alessandro ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] An alternative to renaming [was Re: Proposed change in behaviour for ascii: eudev net.ifnames]
Quoting Hendrik Boom (hend...@topoi.pooq.com): > In the old days, this was exactly what you always had to do. I had to > manually calculate all the timing numbers from hints privided by the > monitor documentation (usually hidden in the advertising blurb on the box the > monitor came in), having been warned that if I got them wrong I could > destroy the monitor. Early in the days of multifrequency and then multiscanning monitors, the very cheapest ones omitted protection circuitry, such that if you sent them video signals outside the high and low vertical and horizontal frequency limits, you could if you were very unlucky and rather inept/incautious drive the monitor into burning itself out. (More specifically, you would start X11 up and hear and see sounds of failing to quite sync, and if you were stupid and ignored these clear signs of distress, after half an hour or so of this torture the monitor could fizzle out.) All of the _better_ multifrequency (and, later, multiscanning) monitors such as (at the top end, among many others) the NEC MultiSync series including protection circuitry. (The earliest MultiSyncs were actually in the mid-1980s, very early, but imitators took a while to follow NEC's lead.) Subsequent to that (mid-1990s), all monitors have both included protection circuitry _and_ sent EDID (Extended Display Identification Data) information automatically, declaring the frequencies they can do. ISTR that EDID was one of the accomplishments of the Video Electronics Standards Association (VESA). And then, LED monitors obsoleted tube monitors, and it became impossible even in theory to blow up your monitor, that way. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] An alternative to renaming [was Re: Proposed change in behaviour for ascii: eudev net.ifnames]
Le 22/08/2017 à 15:09, Hendrik Boom a écrit : Note that a similar problem with disks has been solved elegantly by referencing disks by their uuid or label in /etc/fstab. Maybe /etc/network/interface could specify the MAC address as a hook. This would only suppose that the hotplugger creates a symlink to the interface in some /dev/net/by-address/ subdirectory. With this solution, it is up to the admin to decide if s?he wants a simple configuration based on interface name (eth0) or a secured one alla "Address=a0:d3:c1:9d:a5:86". It turns out that something like this already exists. The ifrename command renames interfaces using a /etc/iftab file. But it is not installed by default. The problem is the rename, because of the race condition. In comparison, here is a citation of the mount man page: The device indication. Most devices are indicated by a file name (of a block special device), like /dev/sda1, but there are other possibilities. For example, in the case of an NFS mount, device may look like knuth.cwi.nl:/dir. It is possible to indicate a block special device using its volume LABEL or UUID (see the -L and -U options below). See the option to use uuid? Mount doesn't require that /dev/sda1 be *renamed*; it just can find the block special device itself, given the uuid. The randomness of disk naming is solved without messing with those names. It doesn't seem a problem to offer a similar option in the ip (or ifconfig) command. The advantage of supporting an option like "hwaddr=a0:d3:c1:9d:a5:86" is that the admin is free to specify interfaces by names or by MAC address. Of course, there is now the possibility to change the MAC address of an interface, but this is a case of severe hacking where the admin has to understand what s?he does. Didier ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] An alternative to renaming [was Re: Proposed change in behaviour for ascii: eudev net.ifnames]
On Tue, 22 Aug 2017 09:09:11 -0400 Hendrik Boom wrote: > On Mon, Aug 21, 2017 at 03:52:44PM +0200, Didier Kryn wrote: > > > > Note that a similar problem with disks has been solved > > elegantly by referencing disks by their uuid or label > > in /etc/fstab. Maybe /etc/network/interface could specify the MAC > > address as a hook. This would only suppose that the hotplugger > > creates a symlink to the interface in some /dev/net/by-address/ > > subdirectory. With this solution, it is up to the admin to decide > > if s?he wants a simple configuration based on interface name > > (eth0) or a secured one alla "Address=a0:d3:c1:9d:a5:86". > > It turns out that something like this already exists. The ifrename > command renames interfaces using a /etc/iftab file. But it is not > installed by default. > > Ifrename must be run before interfaces are brought up, > > So it seems to be something that has to be used during init or > hotplugging. > > Is it a systemdism? > > -- hendrik No, it seems to have been about since at least 2006: http://www.enterprisenetworkingplanet.com/netos/article.php/3586546/Nail-Down-Network-Interface-Names-with-ifrename.htm Rowland ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] An alternative to renaming [was Re: Proposed change in behaviour for ascii: eudev net.ifnames]
On Mon, Aug 21, 2017 at 03:52:44PM +0200, Didier Kryn wrote: > > Note that a similar problem with disks has been solved elegantly by > referencing disks by their uuid or label in /etc/fstab. Maybe > /etc/network/interface could specify the MAC address as a hook. This would > only suppose that the hotplugger creates a symlink to the interface in some > /dev/net/by-address/ subdirectory. With this solution, it is up to the admin > to decide if s?he wants a simple configuration based on interface name > (eth0) or a secured one alla "Address=a0:d3:c1:9d:a5:86". It turns out that something like this already exists. The ifrename command renames interfaces using a /etc/iftab file. But it is not installed by default. Ifrename must be run before interfaces are brought up, So it seems to be something that has to be used during init or hotplugging. Is it a systemdism? -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] An alternative to renaming [was Re: Proposed change in behaviour for ascii: eudev net.ifnames]
On Tue, Aug 22, 2017 at 01:08:25AM +0200, Adam Borowski wrote: > > Manually creating the configuration -- or even manually triggering its > creation -- is a pretty bad idea. It just guarantees you won't have working > X when you make any change to your hardware -- and sometimes software as > well. In the old days, this was exactly what you always had to do. I had to manually calculate all the timing numbers from hints privided by the monitor documentation (usually hidden in the advertising blurb on the box the monitor came in), having been warned that if I got them wrong I could destroy the monitor. That was in the old days, when momitors didn't have much to say to computers. THe current situation is just dreamy by comparison. -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] An alternative to renaming [was Re: Proposed change in behaviour for ascii: eudev net.ifnames]
On Tue, 22 Aug 2017 03:38:50 +0200, Adam wrote in message <20170822013850.ute5cf7ycrlvc...@angband.pl>: > There are cases when the old way had its merit -- but here, we have an > equivalent of a car that needs to be started with a hand-crank. ..you may have missed "Brave New World" by Aldous Huxley and George Orwell's "1984", or at the very least, the main point of these 2 books and your own nation's history, in these Trumpian times. ..an hand-crank car keeps you in control of what's going on around you, if you pay attention. Your new shiny AI car may decide to kill you to save e.g. "a more worthy person" from something really, really bad, e.g. Trumpian embarrasment, e.g. because you pay attention to what's going on around you. ;oD -- ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen ...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry... Scenarios always come in sets of three: best case, worst case, and just in case. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] An alternative to renaming [was Re: Proposed change in behaviour for ascii: eudev net.ifnames]
Le 22/08/2017 à 03:38, Adam Borowski a écrit : Per the other thread, the only thing you need udev/mdev for anymore is setting permissions and calling hooks. Don't tell me that udev is a "big price" on any machine bigger than a microcontroller these days. The price of depending on Udev-Systemd and Dbus. The price of not being assured of the future of Eudev and of Vdev. The price of the complexity of all these. You might have missed the context. We were talking about how to ensure that Xorg works with mdev, rather than udev. But why? mdev is not meant to be used beyond an initramfs, it can't do hotplug, and on modern Linux coldplug is almost entirely done via hotplug -- with shit happening if your software can't take a device which took a while to start. What makes you think it should be restricted to initramfs? For sure it was meant to have a small footprint and small resource usage, but I don't think it sacrifies any functionality, except it lacks the equivalent of libudev, which library seems to be used only by Udev itself and Xorg. Didier ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] An alternative to renaming [was Re: Proposed change in behaviour for ascii: eudev net.ifnames]
Quoting Adam Borowski (kilob...@angband.pl): > There are cases when the old way had its merit -- but here, we have an > equivalent of a car that needs to be started with a hand-crank. This is an exaggeration by orders of magnitude. But you're certainly entitled to your opinion. > Then write just your desired resolution (or what else is wrong in your > EDID). Or, better, set it at runtime. You could do that. But tweaking a Xorg.conf.new file works, too. > Now this is getting ridiculous. I concur. Therefore, I'll ignore the rest. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] An alternative to renaming [was Re: Proposed change in behaviour for ascii: eudev net.ifnames]
On Mon, Aug 21, 2017 at 05:01:13PM -0700, Rick Moen wrote: > Quoting Adam Borowski (kilob...@angband.pl): > > > Manually creating the configuration -- or even manually triggering its > > creation -- is a pretty bad idea. It just guarantees you won't have > > working X when you make any change to your hardware -- and sometimes > > software as well. > > Gosh, what you call a bad idea was utterly routine and what everyone was > used to for decades. You simply knew that, if you changed your video chipset > or changed to a radically different pointing device, or if you wanted to > do something very different like Xinerama, you'd need to generate a new > one. There are cases when the old way had its merit -- but here, we have an equivalent of a car that needs to be started with a hand-crank. > Also, having an /etc/X11/Xorg.conf file means _you_, rather than Xorg > autoprobing, were in charge of what X would do and what it would be > willing to try. Like, maybe you have a monitor for which the built-in > EDID information is slightly wrong and you know what it should be, so > you tweak Xorg.conf to use the correct information. Then write just your desired resolution (or what else is wrong in your EDID). Or, better, set it at runtime. > Moreover, 'won't have working X' is a melodramatic exaggeration of the > situation where, if you changed to a new video chipset, or a new > monitor, or a very different mouse Now this is getting ridiculous. I borrow one of the monitors for a quick task elsewhere quite often. Why would I need to shut down X, configure things manually, then start it again, if it can -- and does -- handle monitor hotplug correctly? Worst case, I'd need to use xrandr (or a clicky-clicky equivalent) to turn off that blasted mirrored mode some smelly laptop-lover invented (although this particular bug seems to be gone). Same with input devices. If I change the keyboard or the mouse, why would I need to drop all my state, rewrite the config, then restart X? Input devices are handled by the kernel in an unified way for a decade. (BTW, you'd want to purge gpm and replace it with consolation -- it's a clean rewrite without the 90's baggage, with less than 10% code size.) > you could always re-run 'Xorg > -configure', test the output, put it in place, and have a tested new > configuration in about 60 seconds. Or, if you no longer wanted that, > just mv /etc/X11/Xorg.conf /etc/X11/Xorg.conf.save , and you're right > back to the automagical thing. I prefer 0 seconds to 60 seconds. And it's never 60 seconds in practice -- in the bad old days it was a matter of hours digging through the documentation. Assuming the user knew where to find the documentation in the first place. > I personally think a udev dependency is far too big a price to pay for > Xorg autoconfiguration when generating what you want is so simple. > However, as usual, I'm deciding that only for myself. It's neither simple nor necessary. If mdev fails to provide X with required information, that's a defect of mdev. But really, it's not the duty of userland to do such things these days -- unless you happen to have a decade old graphics card no one bothered to write a KMS and DRM driver for, there's no configuration to be done. Per the other thread, the only thing you need udev/mdev for anymore is setting permissions and calling hooks. Don't tell me that udev is a "big price" on any machine bigger than a microcontroller these days. > > Save for good-for-nothing Nvidia proprietary drivers, I haven't seen a case > > where mucking with this file was needed to get working X for over a decade. > > You might have missed the context. We were talking about how to ensure > that Xorg works with mdev, rather than udev. But why? mdev is not meant to be used beyond an initramfs, it can't do hotplug, and on modern Linux coldplug is almost entirely done via hotplug -- with shit happening if your software can't take a device which took a while to start. Could you please tell me what's your use case for micromanaging a machine that has an X-capable display attached? Meow! -- ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀ ⣾⠁⢰⠒⠀⣿⡁ Vat kind uf sufficiently advanced technology iz dis!? ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀-- Genghis Ht'rok'din ⠈⠳⣄ ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] An alternative to renaming [was Re: Proposed change in behaviour for ascii: eudev net.ifnames]
Quoting Adam Borowski (kilob...@angband.pl): > Manually creating the configuration -- or even manually triggering its > creation -- is a pretty bad idea. It just guarantees you won't have > working X when you make any change to your hardware -- and sometimes > software as well. Gosh, what you call a bad idea was utterly routine and what everyone was used to for decades. You simply knew that, if you changed your video chipset or changed to a radically different pointing device, or if you wanted to do something very different like Xinerama, you'd need to generate a new one. Also, having an /etc/X11/Xorg.conf file means _you_, rather than Xorg autoprobing, were in charge of what X would do and what it would be willing to try. Like, maybe you have a monitor for which the built-in EDID information is slightly wrong and you know what it should be, so you tweak Xorg.conf to use the correct information. Moreover, 'won't have working X' is a melodramatic exaggeration of the situation where, if you changed to a new video chipset, or a new monitor, or a very different mouse, you could always re-run 'Xorg -configure', test the output, put it in place, and have a tested new configuration in about 60 seconds. Or, if you no longer wanted that, just mv /etc/X11/Xorg.conf /etc/X11/Xorg.conf.save , and you're right back to the automagical thing. I personally think a udev dependency is far too big a price to pay for Xorg autoconfiguration when generating what you want is so simple. However, as usual, I'm deciding that only for myself. > Save for good-for-nothing Nvidia proprietary drivers, I haven't seen a case > where mucking with this file was needed to get working X for over a decade. You might have missed the context. We were talking about how to ensure that Xorg works with mdev, rather than udev. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] An alternative to renaming [was Re: Proposed change in behaviour for ascii: eudev net.ifnames]
On Mon, Aug 21, 2017 at 02:30:00PM -0700, Rick Moen wrote: > My guess is that the udev developers thought 'It'd be excellent to > automatically supply to the starting Xorg binary the output of "Xorg > -configure" when /etc/X11/Xorg.conf doesn't exist, thereby making Xorg > automagically able to reconfigure itself every time it starts without > ever bothering to create Xorg.conf' -- and somehow made the library > call to libudev perform that shim operation. All I really know is that > I was suddenly being told that creating Xorg.conf was no longer > necessary if you were adequately happy with the autoconfiguration > occuring in its absence. Manually creating the configuration -- or even manually triggering its creation -- is a pretty bad idea. It just guarantees you won't have working X when you make any change to your hardware -- and sometimes software as well. If you have a need to adjust the configuration, you put into Xorg.conf just the settings you want to alter. This will let X do the right thing. Save for good-for-nothing Nvidia proprietary drivers, I haven't seen a case where mucking with this file was needed to get working X for over a decade. Meow! -- ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀ ⣾⠁⢰⠒⠀⣿⡁ Vat kind uf sufficiently advanced technology iz dis!? ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀-- Genghis Ht'rok'din ⠈⠳⣄ ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] An alternative to renaming [was Re: Proposed change in behaviour for ascii: eudev net.ifnames]
Quoting Didier Kryn (k...@in2p3.fr): > Sorry, Rick, but I don't understand how it is possible that, on > one hand, it needs libudev to configure itself, and, on the other > hand, it is able to generate its config file without it. Can you > explain this paradox? Not really, no. My guess is that the udev developers thought 'It'd be excellent to automatically supply to the starting Xorg binary the output of "Xorg -configure" when /etc/X11/Xorg.conf doesn't exist, thereby making Xorg automagically able to reconfigure itself every time it starts without ever bothering to create Xorg.conf' -- and somehow made the library call to libudev perform that shim operation. All I really know is that I was suddenly being told that creating Xorg.conf was no longer necessary if you were adequately happy with the autoconfiguration occuring in its absence. The fine point you might have missed is, in the absence of the libudev support, Xorg doesn't _automatically_ create an Xorg.conf nor default in its absence to using what would have been created by 'Xorg -configure > /etc/X11/Xorg.conf' if you had do that. In fact, the old-school method was/is so cautious that its default output (./Xorg.conf.new) is specifically crafted so you would _not_ accidetnally overwrite a production Xorg.conf . Anyway, I can testify that 'Xorg -configure' does indeed output a conffile that's usually really good. I did that for long years, and the same with XFree86 before that. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] An alternative to renaming [was Re: Proposed change in behaviour for ascii: eudev net.ifnames]
Le 21/08/2017 à 16:48, Rick Moen a écrit : Quoting Didier Kryn (k...@in2p3.fr): [mdev:] Sure it would be helpful :-) AFAIK X11 is able to configure itself automatically without a config file when libudev provides it with an interface to query device properties, and without this library it is necessary to provide a config file. At the risk of committing heresy, there's nothing all _that_ bad about, on new Linux systems or ones where you suddenly switched in a whole new video hardware system, having to generate an /etc/X11/Xorg.conf file using 'Xorg -configure' (which by default outputs ./xorg.conf.new). Sorry, Rick, but I don't understand how it is possible that, on one hand, it needs libudev to configure itself, and, on the other hand, it is able to generate its config file without it. Can you explain this paradox? Didier ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] An alternative to renaming [was Re: Proposed change in behaviour for ascii: eudev net.ifnames]
Quoting Didier Kryn (k...@in2p3.fr):
[mdev:]
> Sure it would be helpful :-) AFAIK X11 is able to configure
> itself automatically without a config file when libudev provides it
> with an interface to query device properties, and without this
> library it is necessary to provide a config file.
At the risk of committing heresy, there's nothing all _that_ bad about,
on new Linux systems or ones where you suddenly switched in a whole new
video hardware system, having to generate an /etc/X11/Xorg.conf file
using 'Xorg -configure' (which by default outputs ./xorg.conf.new).
(/me raps the virtual podium with his figurative cane. ;-> )
--
Cheers, « Certainement qui est en droit de vous rendre absurde est
Rick Moen endroit de vous rendre injuste. » ("Certainly, any one
r...@linuxmafia.com who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the
McQ! (4x80) power to make you commit injustices.") -- Voltaire
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Re: [DNG] An alternative to renaming [was Re: Proposed change in behaviour for ascii: eudev net.ifnames]
El 21/08/17 a les 15:52, Didier Kryn ha escrit: > Note that a similar problem with disks has been solved elegantly by > referencing disks by their uuid or label in /etc/fstab. Maybe > /etc/network/interface could specify the MAC address as a hook. This > would only suppose that the hotplugger creates a symlink to the > interface in some /dev/net/by-address/ subdirectory. With this solution, > it is up to the admin to decide if s?he wants a simple configuration > based on interface name (eth0) or a secured one alla > "Address=a0:d3:c1:9d:a5:86". > +1 ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] An alternative to renaming [was Re: Proposed change in behaviour for ascii: eudev net.ifnames]
Le 21/08/2017 à 16:04, k...@aspodata.se a écrit : Didier Kryn: Le 21/08/2017 à 14:41, Arnt Karlsen a écrit : ..we need to sell either vdev or eudev or some such non-systemd udev upstream to Linus and the kernel guys and get them happy about kicking out systemd-udev from the kernel code base. [OT]I would prefer Mdev if the issue with X11 could be solved :-) Mdev is so simpler than Udev, Eudev and Vdev. ... What is the issue with X11, you know that you can run X without udev ? Perhaps it would be helpful if I provided udev-less versions of it. Sure it would be helpful :-) AFAIK X11 is able to configure itself automatically without a config file when libudev provides it with an interface to query device properties, and without this library it is necessary to provide a config file. There are instructions at https://github.com/slashbeast/mdev-like-a-boss but I didn't experiment them yet. Didier ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] An alternative to renaming [was Re: Proposed change in behaviour for ascii: eudev net.ifnames]
Didier Kryn: > Le 21/08/2017 à 14:41, Arnt Karlsen a écrit : > > ..we need to sell either vdev or eudev or some such non-systemd > > udev upstream to Linus and the kernel guys and get them happy > > about kicking out systemd-udev from the kernel code base. > > [OT]I would prefer Mdev if the issue with X11 could be solved :-) > Mdev is so simpler than Udev, Eudev and Vdev. ... What is the issue with X11, you know that you can run X without udev ? Perhaps it would be helpful if I provided udev-less versions of it. Regards, /Karl Hammar --- Aspö Data Lilla Aspö 148 S-742 94 Östhammar Sweden +46 173 140 57 ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
