[e-gold-list] Re: Pecunix security
Sidd, there is no need to increase the length of the passwords. I understand that passwords are good for those people who print their PIKs and may loose them; it's a simple security backup system. For such a case, passwords need to be short to be easily remembered. Also, people who log-in from a public computer only need to remember their limited access password. So, the current password doesn't need to change. However, this still leaves an account opened for automated password cracking. Therefore, the system has to lock (for 24 hours) an account for which there are too many consecutive failed log-ins (for example, 10). This means that each PIK must be unique, so that the system can at any time determine to what account each PIK belongs. The only things that still bugs me is an easier way in input the elements of the PIK, in the log-in form. George Hara --- Xnet scaneaza automat toate mesajele impotriva virusilor folosind RAV AntiVirus. Xnet automatically scans all messages for viruses using RAV AntiVirus. Nota: RAV AntiVirus poate sa nu detecteze toti virusii noi sau toate variantele lor. Va rugam sa luati in considerare ca exista un risc de fiecare data cand deschideti fisiere atasate si ca MobiFon nu este responsabila pentru nici un prejudiciu cauzat de virusi. Disclaimer: RAV AntiVirus may not be able to detect all new viruses and variants. Please be aware that there is a risk involved whenever opening e-mail attachments to your computer and that MobiFon is not responsible for any damages caused by viruses. --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Use e-gold's Secure Randomized Keyboard (SRK) when accessing your e-gold account(s) via the web and shopping cart interfaces to help thwart keystroke loggers and common viruses.
[e-gold-list] Re: Pecunix security
On Wednesday, November 26, 2003, at 04:50 AM, FileMatrix wrote: However, this still leaves an account opened for automated password cracking. Therefore, the system has to lock (for 24 hours) an account for which there are too many consecutive failed log-ins (for example, 10). This means that each PIK must be unique, so that the system can at any time determine to what account each PIK belongs. No George, as I said in an earlier email, there is no way for Pecunix to lock out an account for repeated invalid login attempts. Pecunix cannot identify an account just from the small portion of the PIK entered on a login attempt. Only the secret account id identifies the account, so if a hacker is trying those at random there is obviously no way for Pecunix to know which account to lock out. Besides, as Ian Green points out, locking out an account for repeated invalid login attempts can have some very bad unintended consequences: I agree with you George, but I would be concerned that such a lock out system not be used as a denial of service method for attackers. For example, a competitor could make a login attempt every nine, ten or eleven seconds to the FileMatrix e-gold account and then take advantage of the disgruntled FileMatrix customers who got bad service. -- Patrick --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Use e-gold's Secure Randomized Keyboard (SRK) when accessing your e-gold account(s) via the web and shopping cart interfaces to help thwart keystroke loggers and common viruses.
[e-gold-list] Re: Pecunix security
Right, Patrick. For a moment I forgot that only a few elements from the PIK are used in a log-in. A separate, unique, private log-in ID is required. Besides, as Ian Green points out, locking out an account for repeated invalid login attempts can have some very bad unintended consequences: I haven't received Ian's email and I don't see it in the list. I said the same thing as Ian, earlier. But if the log-in ID is private, nobody can disrupt a business since he doesn't know the private ID of that business. George Hara --- Xnet scaneaza automat toate mesajele impotriva virusilor folosind RAV AntiVirus. Xnet automatically scans all messages for viruses using RAV AntiVirus. Nota: RAV AntiVirus poate sa nu detecteze toti virusii noi sau toate variantele lor. Va rugam sa luati in considerare ca exista un risc de fiecare data cand deschideti fisiere atasate si ca MobiFon nu este responsabila pentru nici un prejudiciu cauzat de virusi. Disclaimer: RAV AntiVirus may not be able to detect all new viruses and variants. Please be aware that there is a risk involved whenever opening e-mail attachments to your computer and that MobiFon is not responsible for any damages caused by viruses. --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Use e-gold's Secure Randomized Keyboard (SRK) when accessing your e-gold account(s) via the web and shopping cart interfaces to help thwart keystroke loggers and common viruses.
[e-gold-list] Re: Pecunix security
On Wednesday, November 26, 2003, at 11:46 AM, FileMatrix wrote: Right, Patrick. For a moment I forgot that only a few elements from the PIK are used in a log-in. ... Gotcha. ... A separate, unique, private log-in ID is required. Besides, as Ian Green points out, locking out an account for repeated invalid login attempts can have some very bad unintended consequences: I haven't received Ian's email and I don't see it in the list. It was Cracking the Turing number from 15-September. Ancient history I know -- I just love doing open-ended email searches such as lock and Pecunix. :-) I said the same thing as Ian, earlier. But if the log-in ID is private, nobody can disrupt a business since he doesn't know the private ID of that business. Precisely. -- Patrick --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Use e-gold's Secure Randomized Keyboard (SRK) when accessing your e-gold account(s) via the web and shopping cart interfaces to help thwart keystroke loggers and common viruses.
[e-gold-list] Re: Pecunix security
However, this still leaves an account opened for automated password cracking. Therefore, the system has to lock (for 24 hours) an account for which there are too many consecutive failed log-ins (for example, 10). This means that each PIK must be unique, so that the system can at any time determine to what account each PIK belongs. George, The accounts can only be indentified by the 'password', since I have to enter only 4 characters from the PIK, and there must be other accounts with the same characters in the same places here and there. We have to assume that their system checks to make it impossible that two accounts can have the same 'password', because otherwise that would be a serious security problem. In fact it would be more correct to say that the password is actually the login ID, and the PIK codes are the passwords, but does it really make a difference? The easiest way to make online currencies much more safe is by requiring email confirmation of spends. That can be as simple as just hitting 'Reply' to the notification email they send. A code in the reply email address will tell the server that the transaction is approved. With such system in place the thief need not only have your passwords, he need to control your email as well. Danny --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Use e-gold's Secure Randomized Keyboard (SRK) when accessing your e-gold account(s) via the web and shopping cart interfaces to help thwart keystroke loggers and common viruses.
[e-gold-list] Re: Pecunix security
Danny, The accounts can only be indentified by the 'password', since I have to enter only 4 characters from the PIK, and there must be other accounts with the same characters in the same places here and there. We have to assume that their system checks to make it impossible that two accounts can have the same 'password', because otherwise that would be a serious security problem. I have to assume the system combines both PIK and password for identification purposes. The password is too short to provide, by itself, proper identification. There are about 10^8 combinations in the password, but there are other (26 + 26 + 10)^4 combinations (over 10^7) in the PIK. A unique, private log-in ID would solve a number of issues. The user would log-in with: a private ID (up to 20 characters), a private password (one for each access level, up to 20 characters), a private PIK (one for each access level). The system checks to see if there are more than 10 consecutive failed log-ins. No Turing number is required, but the users can associate the PIK with the Turing, and thus see the log-in method as being pretty familiar. Sidd, I wonder if it is possible for a user to make his account balance public, but not to everybody?! I mean, the user should be able to send a temporary password to anyone who needs to see the balance, but people without that password would not see the balance. ... Something like a letter from a bank certifying that a client has a specific balance. George Hara --- Xnet scaneaza automat toate mesajele impotriva virusilor folosind RAV AntiVirus. Xnet automatically scans all messages for viruses using RAV AntiVirus. Nota: RAV AntiVirus poate sa nu detecteze toti virusii noi sau toate variantele lor. Va rugam sa luati in considerare ca exista un risc de fiecare data cand deschideti fisiere atasate si ca MobiFon nu este responsabila pentru nici un prejudiciu cauzat de virusi. Disclaimer: RAV AntiVirus may not be able to detect all new viruses and variants. Please be aware that there is a risk involved whenever opening e-mail attachments to your computer and that MobiFon is not responsible for any damages caused by viruses. --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Use e-gold's Secure Randomized Keyboard (SRK) when accessing your e-gold account(s) via the web and shopping cart interfaces to help thwart keystroke loggers and common viruses.
[e-gold-list] Re: Pecunix security
I wonder if it is possible for a user to make his account balance public, but not to everybody?! This is currently possible - somewhat; the read-only access level. However, the password would have to be changed soon after to make it temporary. I mean, the user should be able to send a temporary password to anyone who needs to see the balance, but people without that password would not see the balance. ... Something like a letter from a bank certifying that a client has a specific balance. True temporary passwords/sub-user access that allow read-only acct access, with without access to history and/or acct information, would be a great idea for any GBC (whatever happened to FAGWANE? Queer Eye for the Straight Gold) to implement. It's lumped in there with 1 000 001 other great nifty ideas that need to be implemented. Viking Coder http://www.2cw.org/?VikingCoder --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Use e-gold's Secure Randomized Keyboard (SRK) when accessing your e-gold account(s) via the web and shopping cart interfaces to help thwart keystroke loggers and common viruses.
[e-gold-list] Re: Pecunix security
George, Viking Coder wrote: I wonder if it is possible for a user to make his account balance public, but not to everybody?! This is currently possible - somewhat; the read-only access level. However, the password would have to be changed soon after to make it temporary. A better way to do it would be to put an obscure e-mail address as the Pecunix account identifier... any free e-mail address that you control would do... Send the e-mail address to the person who must view the account. Once they have viewed the account, change the e-mail address in the account back to your normal one. The public balance is viewed here: http://pecunix.com/money.refined...ref.balance Regards, Sidd. --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Use e-gold's Secure Randomized Keyboard (SRK) when accessing your e-gold account(s) via the web and shopping cart interfaces to help thwart keystroke loggers and common viruses.
[e-gold-list] Re: Pecunix security
Sidd wrote: Send the e-mail address to the person who must view the account. Once they have viewed the account, change the e-mail address in the account back to your normal one. Er... and remember to turn public viewing off again. Regards, Sidd. --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Use e-gold's Secure Randomized Keyboard (SRK) when accessing your e-gold account(s) via the web and shopping cart interfaces to help thwart keystroke loggers and common viruses.
[e-gold-list] Re: Pecunix security
Dear Sidd, This will reveal your limited access PIK... use the limited access PIK to log in with limited access, and likewise use your read-only PIK for read-only access. Ah, I see. That's nifty. You can also activate PGP security for your account Yes, I've done so. It is also spiffy. Spaceman Spiff spiffy. I was wondering whether the PGP security might be a stand-alone login, but I see that your system uses the PIK/password to identify the account being logged into. The thing is Jim, despite what the detractors say, Pecunix does have a much higher level of security than the competing DGC's and it is NOT DIFFICULT to use! Okay. I think that is true. In my opinion, Pecunix has a level of security which is comparable to e-Bullion's Cryptocard access, without the expense of the card. There is no need to have lower levels of access security. It takes getting used to, Sidd. The PIK/password approach is different - more secure by design but also more unusual. voice=Tom JonesIt's quite unusual...to see me PIK./voice we need to help users to protect themselves, despite their best efforts to the contrary. It seems necessary to provide systems which are more secure by design. A key advantage for Pecunix is that there are various other online gold services and online fiat-transfer services which are not nearly as secure. Yes, I think so... the alternative would be Java... either way, it is never a good idea to run any type of program from a browser... it is open to all kinds of abuse... Imagine the fun that copycat sites could have if the user was actually willing (and expecting) the site to download a program to the browser! Interesting. I think that's part of what dBourse does when I go to log in there. Regards, Jim --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Use e-gold's Secure Randomized Keyboard (SRK) when accessing your e-gold account(s) via the web and shopping cart interfaces to help thwart keystroke loggers and common viruses.
[e-gold-list] Re: Pecunix security
Sidd, For those who only use one computer and who have a fixed IP address, the IP security is also available (George?) I prefer to keep my options open. You never know what can happen. Besides, I'm on dial-up for the moment and I can't be sure if the next time the IP will be even in the same domain. It doesn't matter George! It is just one half of the puzzle, the Password is the SECRET part of the key... The PIK is there to defeat the trojans, the password secures your account, just as it does in e-gold and the others. If your PIK becomes public, and you log-in from a public computer (or from some computer you don't have complete control over), anyone could have a key-logger read your password. If your PIK is not public but you log-in a number of times from the same (public) computer, anyone could monitor your activity and put together all elements of your PIK. So, once you log-in from a public computer, the security is compromised. Guys, never do that! There is not enough security for such a case. There can't be! You must never log-in from the same (public) location more than once / twice, or at least change the PIK after one or two public log-ins. As I said before, if the PIK is known, the password is too short and can be cracked. So, you can't make you PIK public because the security is compromised. If the password could be longer (the maximum set to at least 20 characters), things would be entirely different. Ok, that's no problem to change... Only in that case, the security of Pecunix will be above the others, not before that. Most people don't use IP lock or PGP log-in, they use passwords - it's easier. Actually, we would need to have 3 PIKs and 3 passwords... Why use passwords anyway, Sidd? You can't expect users to remember three passwords (with those random numbers included), that is beside any other passwords they have to remember. So, they either save them on their computers, or print them. In any case, a pair of PIKs is even better (than PIK + password) since none of them can be intercepted by key-loggers. However, there is no need for a pair, just an increase in the number of elements of a PIK (to 30, for example), and also an increase in the number of combo-boxes in the log-in form (to 8, for example). Here is another possible improvement. The combo-boxes are text, and therefore can be intercepted, so why not replace them with pictures too. One way is for the log-in form to ask for 8 random characters from the (30 characters long) PIK, and to have a pool of characters (like a small keyboard) from where users can dragg-and-dropped characters. This method is much easier to use than to navigate through the combo-boxes. Here is a possible layout: Pecunix log-in Drag-and-drop on the following (numbered) spots, from the pool of letters, each letter from your PIK associated with the number displayed in the drop spots. Drag from this pool of letters: A B C D E F G H I J ... Drop a letter from the pool on each of the following spots: 28 03 14 09 18 29 20 11 Another possible improvement is for the pool of characters to be randomly displayed, not in the same (alphabetical) order every time. Of course, you can have passwords too. The main idea is that I think this is easier and safer than to have combo-boxes and edit-boxes, since you want to be able to log-in from public places. The good thing about this is that no logger is supposed to have any possible way to monitor in what order you drag-and-drop the letters (as long as the pool and the drop zone are randomly ordered), because the letter-number associations are not cached on disk. But you're still not safe if some dude can hook the image drops (which image was dropped on what spot) and you still log-in many times from the same public computer. Its too complicated and too limiting George... imagine, if people judge the current Pecunix system as complicated, how much more so is bedazzled? Well, I said it's probably interesting only for those who need extreme security (and never log-in from any other place than the personal computer). George Hara --- Xnet scaneaza automat toate mesajele impotriva virusilor folosind RAV AntiVirus. Xnet automatically scans all messages for viruses using RAV AntiVirus. Nota: RAV AntiVirus poate sa nu detecteze toti virusii noi sau toate variantele lor. Va rugam sa luati in considerare ca exista un risc de fiecare data cand deschideti fisiere atasate si ca MobiFon nu este responsabila pentru nici un prejudiciu cauzat de virusi. Disclaimer: RAV AntiVirus may not be able to detect all new viruses and variants. Please be aware that there is a risk involved whenever opening e-mail attachments to your computer and that MobiFon is not responsible for any damages caused by viruses. --- You
[e-gold-list] Re: Pecunix security
Only in that case, the security of Pecunix will be above the others, not before that. Most people don't use IP lock or PGP log-in, they use passwords - it's easier. I was, of course, referring to the security of the log-in process. The rest is better, considering the PGP integration. George Hara --- Xnet scaneaza automat toate mesajele impotriva virusilor folosind RAV AntiVirus. Xnet automatically scans all messages for viruses using RAV AntiVirus. Nota: RAV AntiVirus poate sa nu detecteze toti virusii noi sau toate variantele lor. Va rugam sa luati in considerare ca exista un risc de fiecare data cand deschideti fisiere atasate si ca MobiFon nu este responsabila pentru nici un prejudiciu cauzat de virusi. Disclaimer: RAV AntiVirus may not be able to detect all new viruses and variants. Please be aware that there is a risk involved whenever opening e-mail attachments to your computer and that MobiFon is not responsible for any damages caused by viruses. --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Use e-gold's Secure Randomized Keyboard (SRK) when accessing your e-gold account(s) via the web and shopping cart interfaces to help thwart keystroke loggers and common viruses.
[e-gold-list] Re: Pecunix security
On Sunday, November 23, 2003, at 07:34 PM, Jim Davidson wrote: I believe Patrick made the point But the way Pecunix displays the PIKs makes it difficult if not impossible to copy and paste them. ... Since we know that keystroke loggers and clipboard loggers are out there, it seems uncommonly foolish to move back to a typing or pasting approach. ... Jim, we're not talking about typing or pasting the PIKs at the point of login. George just wants a way to copy and paste new PIKs issued to him during the account creation process, because he likes to keep his PIKs and passwords in an encrypted file. -- Patrick --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Use e-gold's Secure Randomized Keyboard (SRK) when accessing your e-gold account(s) via the web and shopping cart interfaces to help thwart keystroke loggers and common viruses.
[e-gold-list] Re: Pecunix security
Dear Jim, Jim Davidson wrote: One of the things I'm not clear about is how one goes about logging into a Pecunix account with less than full access. Log in to your Pecunix account with full access and click Account Details Access Levels Look for Limited Access and Click here to view or update your PIK for this access level This will reveal your limited access PIK... use the limited access PIK to log in with limited access, and likewise use your read-only PIK for read-only access. You can also activate PGP security for your account by clicking Account Details PGP Security For those who only use one computer and who have a fixed IP address, the IP security is also available (George?) Sidd, it seems to me that you should keep the high level of security for full access. Perhaps lower-level access could be obtained using PGP only? The thing is Jim, despite what the detractors say, Pecunix does have a much higher level of security than the competing DGC's and it is NOT DIFFICULT to use! There is no need to have lower levels of access security. Or maybe those who want to risk the keystroke loggers and clipboard loggers can set their accounts to a more open approach. I don't know. I think this is unnecessary, the Pecunix system works well, and is really not difficult. There is enough evidence to suggest that we need to help users to protect themselves, despite their best efforts to the contrary. If it were possible it would require running a program (such as activex) from the browser... a definitely BAD idea. Isn't ActiveX one of those dramatically bad ideas of the Microsofties? I thought it was pretty much limited to Internet Exploder? Yes, I think so... the alternative would be Java... either way, it is never a good idea to run any type of program from a browser... it is open to all kinds of abuse... Imagine the fun that copycat sites could have if the user was actually willing (and expecting) the site to download a program to the browser! Regards, Sidd. --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Use e-gold's Secure Randomized Keyboard (SRK) when accessing your e-gold account(s) via the web and shopping cart interfaces to help thwart keystroke loggers and common viruses.
[e-gold-list] Re: Pecunix Login
Hello George, FileMatrix wrote: Someone could still your wallet, or take a photo of your PIKs, or simply copy the PIKs... and you would never know. George, by far the greatest problem is the theft of passwords by virus/trojan type keyloggers... In all my years in this community, I have never heard of even one case of passwords being stolen because they were written down and stored safely. Remember again, the PIK is the equivalent of the e-gold/goldMoney account number. In those systems you actually PUBLICISE the account number. You are harping on the VERY SLIGHT risk that someone MAY get your PIK. It doesn't matter George! It is just one half of the puzzle, the Password is the SECRET part of the key... The PIK is there to defeat the trojans, the password secures your account, just as it does in e-gold and the others. So, sorry to say, the security of Pecunix log-in is not better than others. This is an entirely incorrect observation... you have missed so many factors in the equation of security and usability. If the password could be longer (the maximum set to at least 20 characters), things would be entirely different. Ok, that's no problem to change... And even better if Sidd would put three passwords (and one PIK), as he said. Actually, we would need to have 3 PIKs and 3 passwords... the password is vulnerable to keylogger attacks, and insider attacks with keyloggers are VERY much easier than even the e-mail/virus/trojan attack because insiders may have access to the machine. If I gave my (one) PIK to my crooked bookkeeper and the read-only password... he would merely need to log my keystrokes once to steal my full password and get access to the account. But anyway, Sidd, also think at the Bedazzled log-in, with password images (those images can be copied only by someone with access to the computer, unlike a printed PIK). Its too complicated and too limiting George... imagine, if people judge the current Pecunix system as complicated, how much more so is bedazzled? I am a traveller, and I need to be able to access my Pecunix account from various computers in various locations... I don't need the problem of having to carry my login images around on a disc (which could be stolen, and I don't even know the meaning of encryption, so I am entirely vulnerable). There are many people using DGC's, each of whom has an ideal for the way he would like the system to work, and is blind to the needs of others... we need a system that is secure and satisfies the majority of users. I think we have a good start on that as Pecunix is now. Change is a good thing, but too much change is very bad... Regards, Sidd. --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Use e-gold's Secure Randomized Keyboard (SRK) when accessing your e-gold account(s) via the web and shopping cart interfaces to help thwart keystroke loggers and common viruses.
[e-gold-list] Re: Pecunix Audit
Hi Joris, Last time I checked the auditors were BDO International. Yes, that is still correct. Is that the 4-monthly audit? If not, can you tell me where I can find the last audit done by BDO International? It is here: http://pecunix.com/money.refined...ind.mintInstructions Click on the little red double arrow to see the latest report. Regards, Sidd. --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Use e-gold's Secure Randomized Keyboard (SRK) when accessing your e-gold account(s) via the web and shopping cart interfaces to help thwart keystroke loggers and common viruses.
[e-gold-list] Re: Pecunix
Finally, who does my wife have to sleep with to get a spot in the e-gold merchant listings page Hello Mark, I suppose that depends on her looks? Serious, if you are a mercahny, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] They'll then add your site, some time in the future. If you are an exchanger / Market maker, then it's more difficult, because e-gold tends to be more picky before listing those. I mean, exchangers are usually going through some verification process. Also, if you haven't done so yet, list your site here: www.golddirectroy.com www.gold-pages.net www.bearerinstruments.com an do course, our very own www.TheGoldIndex.com :o) Cheers, Robert. budget privacy website hosting http://www.cyberica.net budget privacy domain registrations http://www.u2planet.com --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Use e-gold's Secure Randomized Keyboard (SRK) when accessing your e-gold account(s) via the web and shopping cart interfaces to help thwart keystroke loggers and common viruses.
[e-gold-list] Re: Pecunix
OOOPS! Mark, I didn't know you were 'that' Mark :o) Only realized it when I read the other messages afterwards. To get gold-pages.net listed, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] and then be 'very patient'. Took about 9 mnths to get CyberFrontier / Cyberica.Net in there and I'm obviously still waiting for TheGoldIndex.com But it does make sense, because they seem to actually look at sites before they list them and nobody can claim that they are overstaffed or lazy. Cheers, Robert. budget privacy website hosting http://www.cyberica.net budget privacy domain registrations http://www.u2planet.com --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Use e-gold's Secure Randomized Keyboard (SRK) when accessing your e-gold account(s) via the web and shopping cart interfaces to help thwart keystroke loggers and common viruses.
[e-gold-list] Re: Pecunix
Dear Mark, Thanks for your comments... - Original Message - From: Mark [EMAIL PROTECTED] : We like Pecunix very much, I have just found these documents: : : http://pecunix.info/Pecunix_pxi.htm You may also find http://pecunix.info/Pecunix_pri.htm to be very useful, this is the shopping cart interface. : I will try to have it integrated by the end of this week. Excellent, if you need any help you may wish to join the Pecunix developers mail list... instructions here http://pecunix.com/money.refined...ref.developer : When will --www.garzoo.com-- be operating? We expect it to be ready to go in August. Regards, Sidd. --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Use e-gold's Secure Randomized Keyboard (SRK) when accessing your e-gold account(s) via the web and shopping cart interfaces to help thwart keystroke loggers and common viruses.
[e-gold-list] Re: Pecunix rebuttal
Drew Gardner writes: :At 12:00 AM -0500 11/22/02, e-gold Discussion digest wrote: :These incompetent attorneys have failed to check that :Pecunix.com was registered almost a YEAR EARLIER in June 2000. :This is very simple to verify in 2 seconds by doing a check on :the Domain Records, freely available to every Internet user. : :WHOIS dates are not an accurate indication of very much snip : :Thus you could have bought the name :from someone else in 2002 and it would still show June 2000 as the original :registration date. : snip : :Anyway, not taking sides here, just highlighting a flaw in the above quoted :statement. : There is no flaw in the statement, there is a flaw in your reading. My statement says the domain records would show Pecunix.com was registered almost a YEAR EARLIER in June 2000. I made no mention of the ownership of the name. Sidd. --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Use e-gold's Secure Randomized Keyboard (SRK) when accessing your e-gold account(s) via the web and shopping cart interfaces to help thwart keystroke loggers and common viruses.
[e-gold-list] Re: Pecunix Invitation
Hi, Just opened an account with Pecunix, and I am very happy to see implemented there some of the ideas I have expressed here 9 months ago, and for which I was called stupid Actually I am still waiting for the $100 from jpm for the turingdecoder I made in 24 hours as part of the bet here. (And I taught you cannot do chargebacks with e-gold :-( Actually I am disappointed these same useless turing numbers are still up there at the e-gold site.? Now Pecunix has done a great job. Still I see some possible improvements. 1) All GBC I have seen so far make the same mistake: they insist to offer only non-repudiable payments (no charge-backs possible) Now, I am an online merchant myself and of course I don't like it to see chargebacks, but that's the major innovation that creditcards have brought, and that's what Paypal is banking on to be succesfull (by offering this innovation to the guy in the street who is doing a garage sale on ebay) A succesful gold backed currency should offer both possibilities: reversible and non-reversible transactions, and the choice should be left to the merchant (seller) whether he wants to accept reversible payment or not. (why the payment provider should make that decision?) Non-reversible payment is good for some types of business, like online betting, adult sites, ... Reversible payment is THE way to go for many other types of business, because it brings in many more customers. Who is going to send a non-reversible payment to a website, not knowing if the product is going to be delivered??? A customer is far more easily seduced to hit the Buy button if he knows he can claim his money back if the product is not showing up. With reversible payment system even an unknown seller in Tsiroanomandidy, can do business online. With reversible payment the unknown merchant is benefitting from the trust between the client and the payment system provider. In many cases this benefit far outweighs the 4% he looses on commissions So you want people in countries from Africa, South America, Asia or Eastern Europe to embrace gold-currencies but they cannot sell anything with non reversible payment because then the trust is lacking. By only allowing non reversible transactions the GBC have effectively thrown out the child with the bathwater. That's the big mistake that e-gold made and all other gold currencies have copied this mistake... A flexible online currency will also offer reversible payment options, which can be set by the merchant. A reversible payment should become non-reversible after a certain period of time (to be set by the merchant), for example 30 days or 6 months. There could also be choice to offer partial reversibility , for example 50% or withholding a fixed amount for shipping costs for example. All these conditions should be clearly shown in the payment screen before the client activates the payment. In the clients screen there should be a button to order a chargeback (until the period expires), and one to release the money prematurely (for which the merchant could even offer a special incentive...) A system like this offers a lot of new marketing possibilities. 2) It is great to see the option to get an email when a payment is done. I would like to add to that an email when there is certain number of unsuccesful login attempts. And an email if my account is inactive for more than a year. I don't like my wife to know about my gold account, but I may suddenly die tomorrow, and then I want her to get the money. That's where this email will come in and then (optionally and for a fee) being contacted by phone, fax or snail mail if there is no response to this email or if it bounces. 3) If you want to grow big, lower the apparent step in cost to 0% People don't like it at all to sign up and deposit $100 only to see $96 or $97 appear in the account. How to do this? Don't make money up front. Offer a starter account with 3 or 4% transaction costs and perhaps a 0.1% monthly storage fee. With such account you can put $100 in the account for each $100 that is deposited. That feels much better for the new customers. Then offer possibility to upgrade to a premium account with only 0.5% or 1% transaction cost and no storage fee. 4) Make sure the new customer can buy the GBC in house. With all respect to market makers, but having to buy the gold currency through a second party only means just another hurdle (trust) for the new customers. And trust is the main issue in online business, and having to deal with more different entities is just perceived (justifiably) as increased risk... Danny --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Use e-gold's Secure Randomized Keyboard (SRK) when accessing your e-gold account(s) via the web and shopping cart interfaces to help thwart keystroke loggers and common viruses.
[e-gold-list] Re: Pecunix Invitation
Danny Van den Berghe: :Just opened an account with Pecunix, and I am very happy...snip Excellent Danny. Danny Van den Berghe: :Now Pecunix has done a great job. Thank you Danny. Danny Van den Berghe: :Still I see some possible improvements. :1) All GBC I have seen so far make the same mistake: they insist to offer :only non-repudiable payments... ...and the choice should be left to the :merchant (seller) whether he wants to accept reversible payment or not. (why :the payment provider should make that decision?) Danny, you the merchant do have the choice... if you wish to accept reversible payments you can accept paypal or credit cards. If you want non-reversible payments accept a gold currency. Of course you can always accept both. Danny Van den Berghe: :Reversible payment is THE way to go for many other types of business, :because it brings in many more customers. No this is not quite right Danny; you are saying that it is better to destroy the integrity of a currency, than to correct the trading practices and trust in a merchant. Danny Van den Berghe: :Who is going to send a non-reversible payment to a website, not knowing if :the product is going to be delivered??? The customer needs to trust the merchant. If he does not, it is the merchant's problem, not the currency's, but there are solutions, read on. Danny Van den Berghe: :A customer is far more easily seduced to hit the Buy button if he knows he :can claim his money back if the product is not showing up. :With reversible payment system even an unknown seller in Tsiroanomandidy, :can do business online. Yes, and a merchant is far more likely to be ripped off time and again because theives receive products and then reverse the payments. Every day there is a news article about how e-commerce is foundering because of the high level of fraud! Danny Van den Berghe: :By only allowing non reversible transactions the GBC have effectively thrown :out the child with the bathwater. Nope, they have set a path towards honest and reliable e-commerce. The next step is to encourage the merchants to offer their customer's the use of escrow services. There are many honest and effective online escrow agents now. The escrow facility protects the merchant and the buyer. Danny Van den Berghe: :A reversible payment should become non-reversible after a certain period of :time (to be set by the merchant), for example 30 days or 6 months. :There could also be choice to offer partial reversibility , for example 50% :or withholding a fixed amount for shipping costs for example. :All these conditions should be clearly shown in the payment screen before :the client activates the payment. :In the clients screen there should be a button to order a chargeback (until :the period expires), and one to release the money prematurely (for which the :merchant could even offer a special incentive...) :A system like this offers a lot of new marketing possibilities. What you are describing here is not a currency, but looks rather more like a kind of agreement you would see between buyer and seller... actually, you are almost exactly describing the type of agreement you would find when using the services of an escrow agent. Danny Van den Berghe: :It is great to see the option to get an email when a payment is done. :I would like to add to that an email when there is certain number of :unsuccesful login attempts. Please explain why exactly? Thanks. Danny Van den Berghe: :And an email if my account is inactive for more than a year. Pecunix actually has this, but it is after 5 years, not 1 year. See 14.2 of the user agreement http://pecunix.com/money.refined...ind.useragreement :...lower the apparent step in cost to 0% This is a good point... the Pecunix system makes strong moves in this direction, but sadly it is not possible to offer costly services free of charge and stay in business :-( Thanks for all your excellent comments! Sidd. --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Use e-gold's Secure Randomized Keyboard (SRK) when accessing your e-gold account(s) via the web and shopping cart interfaces to help thwart keystroke loggers and common viruses.
[e-gold-list] Re: Pecunix website, (and an announcement)
We welcome Pecunix to the GBIC community. Just like any other customers - we, as a competitor, were waiting to see what Pecunix will bring to the industry after all the promises we heard on the list. Unfortunately we don't see many new features, especially not the kind of features that will convince users to make the transition from existing digital currencies. What we have here is e-gold with a graphical interface. They strive to offer customers absolute privacy, yet failed to provide this by identifying an account by the owner's e-mail address. What's more traceable than this? No wonder we have PGP encryption here to convince us it is safe after all. It took me 10 minutes to open a new account. 10 precious minutes an average customer will not spend on this task. There were delays in receiving the verification code via email, and when I did get it, the activation process expired. Then this whole PIK thing was really confusing. What is this - a game? I want immediate access. I don't want to start calculating positions in a string. And when you log in for the first time, you get level 2 - another PIK to play with. Who the heck came up with this idea? :) I hope the guys at Pecunix will take these comments into consideration. I'll finish this email by letting everyone know that we're almost there. The most enhanced, secure, privacy-oriented, gold based internet currency is coming this November - ThinkGold. http://www.thinkgold.com. Market Makers and merchants who contacted us last year, when we made the first announcement, are more then welcome to contact us again if you haven't heard from us in the past few days - and so does anyone else. Taste our new standards in customer service today! [EMAIL PROTECTED] So stay tuned guys, and have a good day. Aviv Shaham Managing Director Think Gold, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Guys, Have you looked at the new pecunix website? Takes a long time to perform transactions...is that the price of advance security? A client of mine said that he can't understand why you need so many passwords:-) One for everything you want to do:-) I said he is lucky that he don't have to use a different password for every page:-) Anyway, I will stick to my e-gold. SV Gisp --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Use e-gold's Secure Randomized Keyboard (SRK) when accessing your e-gold account(s) via the web and shopping cart interfaces to help thwart keystroke loggers and common viruses.
[e-gold-list] Re: Pecunix website, (and an announcement)
Aviv Shaham [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: We welcome Pecunix to the GBIC community. Thank you Aviv. : Unfortunately we don't see many new features, especially not the kind of : features that will convince users to make the transition from existing : digital currencies. What we have here is e-gold with a graphical : interface. A five year old child examining the engines of a Ferrari and a Daihatsu would probably also only see a cosmetic difference between the two Aviv. : They strive to offer customers absolute privacy, yet failed to provide : this by identifying an account by the owner's e-mail address. What's more : traceable than this? Please let me know who the owner of [EMAIL PROTECTED] is Aviv, I need to get in touch with this person over a very important matter... thanks. : It took me 10 minutes to open a new account. 10 precious minutes an average : customer will not spend on this task. Pecunix does not wish to attract AVERAGE customers Aviv, Pecunix will attract SPECIAL customers, who can recognise a good thing when they see it... and Pecunix will look after them very well. : And when you log in for the first time, you get level 2 - : another PIK to play with. Who the heck came up with this idea? :) Er... I think it was Snowdog who first mentioned it a few years ago, and an excellent idea it is too, thanks Craig. What we are talking about here is that Pecunix actually has 3 different levels of access. The Full access level allows the account holder to make adjustments to account settings, contact details etc. The Limited access level (recommended for daily use) only allows payments to be made up to a pre-determined daily limit and access to the account history statements. The daily limit is set under full access. Finally there is a read only access level, that allows access only to the account history. This is ideal where businesses need to give access to the account history for bookkeepers etc, who should not have access to funds. : I hope the guys at Pecunix will take these comments into consideration. We certainly did Aviv! svgisp wrote: Takes a long time to perform transactions...is that the price of advance security? Nope, see George's post earlier about WorldCom... Sidd. --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Use e-gold's Secure Randomized Keyboard (SRK) when accessing your e-gold account(s) via the web and shopping cart interfaces to help thwart keystroke loggers and common viruses.
[e-gold-list] Re: Pecunix website, (and an announcement)
Hello, What we are talking about here is that Pecunix actually has 3 different levels of access. The Full access level allows the account holder to make adjustments to account settings, contact details etc. The Limited access level (recommended -- Quote Rule Breaker for daily use) only allows payments to be made up to a pre-determined daily limit and access to the account history statements. The daily limit is set under full access. Finally there is a read only access level, that allows access only to the account history. This is ideal where businesses need to give access to the account history for bookkeepers etc, who should not have access to funds. This is an excelent idea if I must say so myself. Very often I've run into a problem where I need to hire people to do customer service and need to give them access to payment histories, but can't really let them spend the money thats in that account. Khurram Khan --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Use e-gold's Secure Randomized Keyboard (SRK) when accessing your e-gold account(s) via the web and shopping cart interfaces to help thwart keystroke loggers and common viruses.
[e-gold-list] Re: Pecunix website, (and an announcement)
A five year old child examining the engines of a Ferrari and a Daihatsu would probably also only see a cosmetic difference between the two Aviv. And you're saying you're the Ferrari? :) : They strive to offer customers absolute privacy, yet failed to provide this by identifying an account by the owner's e-mail address. What's more traceable than this? Please let me know who the owner of [EMAIL PROTECTED] is Aviv, I need to get in touch with this person over a very important matter... thanks. I don't know, but what I can do is send him fake emails, spam, scam ads, see if Google ever cached this email address, and many other things. What you're asking is help from the user if he really wants privacy, while he deserves the ability to keep his email address private. We also offer payments to email, but allow the user to maintain maximum privacy. : It took me 10 minutes to open a new account. 10 precious minutes an average customer will not spend on this task. Pecunix does not wish to attract AVERAGE customers Aviv, Pecunix will attract SPECIAL customers, who can recognise a good thing when they see it... and Pecunix will look after them very well. So basically you do not need merchants such as web hosting firms, since they do wish to have average customers as well. So how DO you see the ultimate Pecunix client? : And when you log in for the first time, you get level 2 - another PIK to play with. Who the heck came up with this idea? :) Er... I think it was Snowdog who first mentioned it a few years ago, and an excellent idea it is too, thanks Craig. It just makes it a bit more complicated for a hacker to get into an account. But it does make it much more complicated for customers to log in. Oh, they're special customers (with a lot of patience and math skills :) Call us old fashioned, we trust in RSA Security's SecurID and other strong means of authentication and security that will still make the user feel welcome and comfortable. What we are talking about here is that Pecunix actually has 3 different levels of access. The Full access level allows the account holder to make adjustments to account settings, contact details etc. The Limited access level (recommended for daily use) only allows payments to be made up to a pre-determined daily limit and access to the account history statements. The daily limit is set under full access. Finally there is a read only access level, that allows access only to the account history. This is ideal where businesses need to give access to the account history for bookkeepers etc, who should not have access to funds. Sure, we have that and even more too, but it doesn't mean it should be complicated. I didn't mean to sound negative, Sidd, the truth is I was relieved after you launched unofficially, but I honestly want to see a better GBIC community in the near future. Have a good weekend all, Aviv --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Use e-gold's Secure Randomized Keyboard (SRK) when accessing your e-gold account(s) via the web and shopping cart interfaces to help thwart keystroke loggers and common viruses.
[e-gold-list] Re: Pecunix News
I was finished with this topic, but since I still have a post left today, I thought it would be a shame to waste it ;) --- F. Marc de Piolenc [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Forgive me for stating the obvious, but all value is perception, as there is no value without a valu-er. So if you say that the [capital] market value of a stock does not reflect the value of the enterprise, you are talking nonsense, because the market is the ONLY forum where people and institutions are able to bid from day to day for equity in the enterprise. Here you are contradicting yourself. you have completely missed the point. I will type slowly so you can understand. You: but all value is perception, as there is no value without a valu-er. Me: Exactly right! That is what I am saying! The shareholders (public)are the valuers, and they set the value as they perceive it. We agree on this ...yes? If the public believe the company to be doing well, they pay more for the shares and the value of the shares go up and vice versa... yes? You: So if you say that the [capital] market value of a stock does not reflect the value of the enterprise, you are talking nonsense... Me: No, now you are contradicting your previous statement! We agreed that the market value of the stock represents the perceived value of the enterprise by under qualified valuers, not the true value of the enterprise... Let me give you an example: A man approaches you with a beautiful stone and tells you it is a diamond and requests you buy it from him. You see it is beautiful but you are no gem expert. What to do? You ask a few friends and they all advise that it certainly looks like a diamond, and their friends agree, and the price seems right, so you buy it. $700 later and you decide to pop over to the jeweler to find out how you fared. Oh no! its a piece of worthless glass! Problem was, the perceived value was MUCH higher than the real value. Sadly this is how the share market works. Here is a real world example: Yahoo! currently has a share capitalization of 10.17 Billion Dollars. For the 6 months ended 6/30/01, revenues decreased 28% for a Net loss totaling $60M. http://quote.fool.com/snapshot/snapshot.asp?symbols=YHOOcurrticker=YHOO So here is a company that has solid material assets of perhaps less than $100M and a declining revenue, making a loss of $60M in the last 6 months... and the shareholders say it is worth 10 billion Dollars! I ask you this, if someone right now offered you a deal: You must give up everything you own, and in return you may choose a gift... 10 Billion in your bank right now... or Yahoo! (assume this person had bought all the yahoo stock and declared it no longer a public company) Like I said right in the beginning, the share price does not represent the true value of the enterprise __ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[e-gold-list] Re: Pecunix News
Does this apply to everyone or only to us rude outspoken people? --- Lyris List Manager [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sorry, your message was not sent out to 'e-gold-list' because you have exceeded the maximum number of messages per day, per user. The maximum number of messages per day, per user is 2 You will not be allowed to post any more messages today. In the future, you can avoid this limitation by consolidating your responses into fewer messages, so that you stay under the per-day limit. Please wait until tomorrow and resend your message. __ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[e-gold-list] Re: Pecunix News
Claude Comier has brought to our notice some inaccuracies in a promotional document about the Pecunix share offer on the PVCSE web site . The Directors of Pecunix would like to thank Claude for pointing these out. The document was posted by an over zealous and inexperienced promotions assistant and overlooked at the time. The text has since been edited to reflect a more accurate presentation. We apologize for any confusion this may have caused. Regards, Michael Moore Pecunix PR for the Board of Directors Pecunix Venture Holdings Inc. --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[e-gold-list] Re: Pecunix News
Forgive me for stating the obvious, but all value is perception, as there is no value without a valu-er. So if you say that the [capital] market value of a stock does not reflect the value of the enterprise, you are talking nonsense, because the market is the ONLY forum where people and institutions are able to bid from day to day for equity in the enterprise. Nobody who is not willing to plunk down shekels has standing to decide what a company is worth! Marc de Piolenc Philippines Goldlist Cynic wrote: Now you are getting it, it is the market value of the SHARES, and has nothing (directly) to do with the value of the enterprise. --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[e-gold-list] Re: Pecunix News
Hello Snipper, I've been looking at Pecunix. But I don't think that the group does everything to look serious to potential investor like me. Statements like the ones below are not exactly responsible. It is conservatively estimated that the shares will reach a value of US$17.00 within the first two years of operation. PECUNIX VENTURE HOLDINGS Inc will be the major shareholder in an asset that conservative forecasts estimate will exceed a value of US$100M within two years of operation. Based on the above forecasted figures you could turn a small investment of say US$500 into an asset worth more than US$15,000 in less than two years! http://www.pvcse.com/#Brief I don't know the regulations of the Security Exchange commisions in New Zealand, but here in Canada and to a lesser degree in the USA as well, a public junior company listed on our exchanges would be asked to remove this publicity immediately. Do you really think that these numbers are possible. US$17 for the stock implies a entreprise value of US$442 millions for Pecunix Inc if all the 13,000,000 shares are sold. That rate of return is 3300% in two years. Can you explain to me how they will do that? I certainly like the idea of Pecunix. The more solid and reputable GBIC we have, the better it is for the gold economy. But, hey! With these kind of statements ... Claude http://www.goldcurrencies.ca http://www.ormetal.com == Claude Cormier Public Key http://www.ormetal.com/PGPkey.html == --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[e-gold-list] Re: Pecunix News
--- C. Cormier - Ormetal Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello Snipper, I've been looking at Pecunix. But I don't think that the group does everything to look serious to potential investor like me. Obviously not a very experienced or knowledgable potential investor. I don't know the regulations of the Security Exchange commisions in New Zealand, but here in Canada and to a lesser degree in the USA as well, a public junior company listed on our exchanges would be asked to remove this publicity immediately. What have the SEC in NZ, Canada or USA to do with this share offer? This appears to be a PPO out of Panama. Do you really think that these numbers are possible. US$17 for the stock implies a entreprise value of US$442 millions for Pecunix Inc if all the 13,000,000 shares are sold. Here you show your glaring lack of knowledge. When has stock value ever represented the enterprise value? Ever heard of the PE ratio? Read this, it may help you: http://www.edmpinc.com/generalinvesting/demystifying.htm In their consolidated income statement, Pecunix shows 10 million in earnings for year 2. This would give a PE ratio of about 40 - 50 at the figures you quote above. That is a VERY reasonable PE ratio for a high growth industry company. That rate of return is 3300% in two years. Can you explain to me how they will do that? All you need to do is educate yourself. Many tech stocks gave much higher returns in shorter time during the bubble. This is not not an unreasonable figure. Remember, the share price IN NO WAY reflects the value of the company once the shares trade freely on a public exchange. They merely reflect the investors' PERCIEVED VALUE of the company. __ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[e-gold-list] Re: Pecunix News
you explain to me how they will do that? I certainly like the idea of Pecunix. The more solid and reputable GBIC we have, the better it is for the gold economy. Mr Cormier, A couple of points, Firstly this is a Panamanian Corporation and not subject to US, or New Zealand regulations. (incidently there is no connection with the US whatsoever. No Director Lives in the US abnd no gold will be stored there I believe) Secondly that section you mention refers to Internet usage, growth etc, of financial transactions on the Internet. Aside from the optimisim of the projections, it is not unknown for a P/E Ratio to move such. Pecunix believe they have the system and the capability to put into place a system that will overshadow all former ecurrency types and with that in mind and the publics possible perceived share price, this is indeed a conservative estimate I feel. Regards, Sniper _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[e-gold-list] Re: Pecunix News
Hi guys I don't know the regulations of the Security Exchange commisions in New Zealand, but here in Canada and to a lesser degree in the USA as well, a public junior company listed on our exchanges would be asked to remove this publicity immediately. What have the SEC in NZ, Canada or USA to do with this share offer? This appears to be a PPO out of Panama. Which is great. As my name suggests, I'm a big offshore fan. But I also think it is absolutely fair to use SEC rules from other countries for *comparitive* purposes - ie, helping people understand the investment you are making. I only have a problem if the SEC themselves start sticking their noses in. Here you show your glaring lack of knowledge. When has stock value ever represented the enterprise value? Ever heard of the PE ratio? Huh??? The total stock value is the total enterprise value. You can't really argue with that one. If I want to buy the enterprise, I have to buy the stock, therefore the stock price is the value. People who believe otherwise are numerous, but they are just the same kind of idiots who invested money in dot com businesses last year. In their consolidated income statement, Pecunix shows 10 million in earnings for year 2. This would give a PE ratio of about 40 - 50 at the figures you quote above. That is a VERY reasonable PE ratio for a high growth industry company. AFAIK Pecunix have not even started business yet so they cannot issue consolidated income statements for year 2. They can only issue a cash flow forecast. As for the PE ratio it sounds outrageous to me, but I was never a fan of this kind of investment. unreasonable figure. Remember, the share price IN NO WAY reflects the value of the company once the shares trade freely on a public exchange. What a load of BS. offshoresurfer --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[e-gold-list] Re: Pecunix News
--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Here you show your glaring lack of knowledge. When has stock value ever represented the enterprise value? Ever heard of the PE ratio? Huh??? The total stock value is the total enterprise value. You can't really argue with that one. If I want to buy the enterprise, I have to buy the stock, therefore the stock price is the value. Ah, another uneducated idiot. You believe the true value of an enterprise is reflected in the stock value? You believe the value of the enterprise changes on a daily basis? Do you really believe Yahoo is now only worth ONE TENTH what it was worth this time last year? Or is it perhaps investors perceptions about the value that have changed? http://biz.yahoo.com/p/y/yhoo.html. Stock prices are NEGOTIABLE - if you want to buy the enterprise you offer to buy the stock for whatever you PERCIEVE is a fair value. If others won't sell to you, they PERCIEVE the value to be higher - it is ALL just smoke and mirrors. People who believe otherwise are numerous, but they are just the same kind of idiots who invested money in dot com businesses last year. What about all the idiots who invested in dot coms the year before last and made milions? I sure am glad you are not my investment advisor. __ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[e-gold-list] Re: Pecunix News
http://biz.yahoo.com/p/y/yhoo.html. Stock prices are NEGOTIABLE - if you want to buy the enterprise you offer to buy the stock for whatever you PERCIEVE is a fair value. If others won't sell to you, they PERCIEVE the value to be higher - it is ALL just smoke and mirrors. Yes, exactly. The median at which people will actually BUY and others will SELL is the market value. Just like with gold, just like with used cars, just like with caviar... you name it. Who cares what people perceive if they don't act on their perceptions. I sure am glad you are not my investment advisor. The feeling is mutual. Anyway this has nothing whatsoever to do with e-gold. Let's quit the discussion here. best, offshoresurfer --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[e-gold-list] Re: Pecunix News
On 23 Jul 2001, at 15:35, Goldlist Cynic wrote: Obviously not a very experienced or knowledgable potential investor. Dear Goldlist Cynic, I've only been in this business for more than a decade, am a graduate of the Canadian Securities Institute and have been writing a newsletter about junior companies for 6 years. Don't worry for me. What have the SEC in NZ, Canada or USA to do with this share offer? This appears to be a PPO out of Panama. I didn't know that POecunix Ventures was not from NZ like Pecunix Inc. is. Anyway, it doesn't matter from where it is. What I am saying is that such claims are not allowed from public corporations. They call this excessive promotion. A corporation (public or private) that is going after the public money is not allowed to make these kind of statements. What investors need are facts, nothing else. Here you show your glaring lack of knowledge. When has stock value ever represented the enterprise value? Ever heard of the PE ratio? Over the long term you should know that the average market capitalization (or stock value) is close to the enterprise value. Of course, business cycles and stock manias cause this value to be volatile. Yes. I know what is a P/E ratio. The P times the number of shares out is what makes the market capitalization. In their consolidated income statement, Pecunix shows 10 million in earnings for year 2. This would give a PE ratio of about 40 - 50 at the figures you quote above. That is a VERY reasonable PE ratio for a high growth industry company. I am not challenging the 10 millions figure even if I believe that it is too optimistic. I am not even challenging the P/E which may also be too optimistic given the high teck bubble we just went through and the bear market that is currently ongoing. I am challenging the promotional words. Such words are not accepted in prospectus submitted by public corporations to the various security exchange commissions. Period. All you need to do is educate yourself. Don't worry I know all this. Many tech stocks gave much higher returns in shorter time during the bubble. I agree. You are right... But the bubble is over. --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[e-gold-list] Re: Pecunix News
--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: http://biz.yahoo.com/p/y/yhoo.html. Stock prices are NEGOTIABLE - if you want to buy the enterprise you offer to buy the stock for whatever you PERCIEVE is a fair value. If others won't sell to you, they PERCIEVE the value to be higher - it is ALL just smoke and mirrors. Yes, exactly. The median at which people will actually BUY and others will SELL is the market value. Now you are getting it, it is the market value of the SHARES, and has nothing (directly) to do with the value of the enterprise. Just like with gold, just like with used cars,just like with caviar... you name it. No, here you are wrong again, it is not just the same as a solid commodity like gold or used cars. Who cares what people perceive if they don't act on their perceptions. That's just the point, they DO act on their perceptions, that is why the share price IS NOT the true value of the enterprise. It is the investors' perceived value, which is what I said right from the start. __ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[e-gold-list] Re: Pecunix News
On 23 Jul 2001, at 22:46, The Snipper wrote: Firstly this is a Panamanian Corporation and not subject to US, or New Zealand regulations. OK... I understand that. But I think you will agree that the higher are Pecunix standards the better it is to attract potential investors. What I am saying is that such claims like the ones mentioned on their website are low standards (even if they are true) and unethical based on the regulations of security exchange commissions in Canada, and I am sure the USA, Australia, NZ and elsewhere. Basically you don't promote a stock placement by suggesting that tremendous capital gains are possible, even if it is true. You provide facts and the potential investor will evaluate what ROI (return on investment) he will get. Secondly that section you mention refers to Internet usage, growth etc, of financial transactions on the Internet. Yes in part but it also suggest that Pecunix is expected to achieve net income of $10 Millions next year...based on those factors...and that consequently tremendous gains in capital are possible. These are not facts. Aside from the optimisim of the projections, it is not unknown for a P/E Ratio to move such. I agree. It has been true during the high tech bubble. But we are now in a bear market. In good times though, I agree that P/E ratios or 40-50 can be acceptable for very high growth companies. That is not the point I am trying to make. Pecunix believe they have the system and the capability to put into place a system that will overshadow all former ecurrency types and with that in mind and the publics possible perceived share price, this is indeed a conservative estimate I feel. Time will tell. --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[e-gold-list] Re: Pecunix News
I've been looking at Pecunix. But I don't think that the group does everything to look serious to potential investor like me. Obviously not a very experienced or knowledgable potential investor. It depends on if you mean experienced with the OTC BB stock scams that were running rampant during the dot com boom days. The Pecunix hype, sorry mean prospectus, sound just like the dozens of penny stock junk mail I get every week. If they are to be taken seriously then they need to present themselves that way, not rely on hype. I don't know the regulations of the Security Exchange commisions in New Zealand, but here in Canada and to a lesser degree in the USA as well, a public junior company listed on our exchanges would be asked to remove this publicity immediately. What have the SEC in NZ, Canada or USA to do with this share offer? This appears to be a PPO out of Panama. The SEC guidelines, while not the best, are there to keep the worst of the stock scams out of their respective markets. If you buy something that doesn't bother with following them, in fact tries to put themselves outside of most of their jurisdiction then it is buyer beware. In their consolidated income statement, Pecunix shows 10 million in earnings for year 2. This would give a PE ratio of about 40 - 50 at the figures you quote above. That is a VERY reasonable PE ratio for a high growth industry company. Talk to all the people who believed that a couple years ago. If they didn't dump their shares on some other sucker before the bust they now understand what reasonable PE ratios are. That rate of return is 3300% in two years. Can you explain to me how they will do that? All you need to do is educate yourself. Many tech stocks gave much higher returns in shorter time during the bubble. This is not not an unreasonable figure. Remember, the share price IN NO WAY reflects the value of the company once the shares trade freely on a public exchange. They merely reflect the investors' PERCIEVED VALUE of the company. Well if all this hype is true you shouldn't be having to hawk this stock on this board. Institutions should be lining up to take all that you can give them. So how's the road show going? Paul Ewing Shining Moon Creations - Exotic and Fantasy Jewelry http://www.shiningmoon.com --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[e-gold-list] Re: Pecunix
Of course they don't mention scams in a prospectus. But mentioning MLM and Gaming is exactly the same. That is like saying all women are the same or that all cars are the same. There is such a thing as differences, similarities and identities. Are all Woudts the same? I do not see that scams are being specifically targeted any more than my any other currency supplier. PS: Even more interesting is the following phrase in their prospectus: During the year 2000 e-gold experienced explosive growth, partly due to work done by the founders of pecunix incorporated. Now that we all know where this growth of e-gold came from, what does this mean? Oh come now, what are you covertly implying? Are you saying that e-gold only grew out of scams? and implying that the Founders of Pecunix are scam artists as well as all those people who opened e-gold accounts and the market makers who grew to service them? Is this your opinion of the e-gold community? I imagine both Pecunix AND e-gold would not take lightly to that view. And you posted it on the discussion list as well! tsk tsk. I think a lot of honest people are actually responsible for the growth of e-gold, not the least ALL those that use it one way or another including YOU? Do YOU have an e-gold account? Sniper _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[e-gold-list] Re: PECUNIX INCORPORATED Share Offer
It is called: Private Venture Capital Stock Exchange or PVCSE. The first share offering at this Stock Exchange is for PECUNIX Venture Holdings Inc which is offering THIRTEEN MILLION (13,000,000) Shares at US$0.50 per Share payable in full on application to raise between US$5,000,000.00 and US$6,500,000. PECUNIX Venture Holdings Inc will Negotiate the acquisition of 51% the Shares of PECUNIX INCORPORATED. Why are they trying to raise 6.5 million dollars to build another Digital Currency, when E-Gold and GoldMoney did it for only a couple hundred thousand dollars? Craig --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[e-gold-list] Re: PECUNIX INCORPORATED Share Offer
Why are they trying to raise 6.5 million dollars to build another Digital Currency, when E-Gold and GoldMoney did it for only a couple hundred thousand dollars? Probably because they are trying the old maneuver of 'if a few hundred thousand dollar startup funds did this, then we should sweep the market with $6.5 million startup'. That was the one of the driving points behind the dot-com boom. They probably also don't want to wait the several years it took for e-gold to come into prominence. All these new gold-backed currencies are a signal that this is finally becoming something of a main-stream idea. Viking Coder Worth Two Cents? http://www.2cw.org/VikingCoder --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[e-gold-list] Re: PECUNIX INCORPORATED Share Offer
Viking Coder wrote: Probably because they are trying the old maneuver of 'if a few hundred thousand dollar startup funds did this, then we should sweep the market with $6.5 million startup'. That was the one of the driving points behind the dot-com boom. They probably also don't want to wait the several years it took for e-gold to come into prominence. They did however budget 1.2 mil for the first year advertising. If they spend it correctly they could be a boost for all gold based systems. --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[e-gold-list] Re: PECUNIX INCORPORATED Share Offer
I seriously doubt that they did it for a couple hundred thousand. If they did, then no wonder about all the flaws. Maybe these people want to do it right? :-) Dagny Taggart Why are they trying to raise 6.5 million dollars to build another Digital Currency, when E-Gold and GoldMoney did it for only a couple hundred thousand dollars? Craig __ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[e-gold-list] Re: PECUNIX INCORPORATED Share Offer
I seriously doubt that they did it for a couple hundred thousand. If they did, then no wonder about all the flaws. Maybe these people want to do it right? :-) Seriously... What flaws does e-gold have? Craig --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[e-gold-list] Re: PECUNIX INCORPORATED Share Offer
--- "Viking Coder" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Why are they trying to raise 6.5 million dollars to build another Digital Currency, when E-Gold and GoldMoney did it for only a couple hundred thousand dollars? Seriously, what makes you think that e-gold and GoldMoney started off with just a couple hundred thousand? GoldMoney had advertised on their website at one point that they secured atleast 2million in Seed Funding. e-gold probably needed similar funds or they wouldn't be in business today. Khurram Khan == 2 cents worth? http://two-cents-worth.com/?135153 _ Get email for your site --- http://www.everyone.net --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[e-gold-list] RE: pecunix fun.
Is it true that the bloke behind !!PECUINX!! is the SAME bloke behind CharityChase, EMutualFun, and DigitalStocks? Anyone know? Yes, I know! The guy behind the now defunct Charitychase.com was a guy from NZ called Danny. The guy behind emutualfun was a guy from Oregon called Kelly Chohan. Sorry I don't know who the guys behind DigitalStocks were But they definitely aren't me! Regards, Sidd. PS I did help them with their programming though. --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[e-gold-list] RE: pecunix fun.
OOOPs!!! It sounds like I helped DigitalStocks with their programming... not so! My company helped CharityChase and Emutualfun with their programming Sidd. Is it true that the bloke behind !!PECUINX!! is the SAME bloke behind CharityChase, EMutualFun, and DigitalStocks? Anyone know? Yes, I know! The guy behind the now defunct Charitychase.com was a guy from NZ called Danny. The guy behind emutualfun was a guy from Oregon called Kelly Chohan. Sorry I don't know who the guys behind DigitalStocks were But they definitely aren't me! Regards, Sidd. PS I did help them with their programming though. --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[e-gold-list] RE: pecunix fun.
Wander over to http://www.pvcse.com/, follow the link to "investor information", and download the business plan and prospectus. The primary principal behind Pecunix is Simon Davis, the gentleman in New Zealand who brought CharityChase, EMutualFun, and DigitalStocks to e-gold. The guy behind the now defunct Charitychase.com was a guy from NZ called Danny. The guy behind emutualfun was a guy from Oregon called Kelly Chohan. Sorry I don't know who the guys behind DigitalStocks were But they definitely aren't me! Regards, Sidd. PS I did help them with their programming though. --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[e-gold-list] RE: pecunix fun.
At 01:40 PM 3/23/2001 +1200, Sidd wrote: Is it true that the bloke behind !!PECUINX!! is the SAME bloke behind CharityChase, EMutualFun, and DigitalStocks? Anyone know? Yes, I know! The guy behind the now defunct Charitychase.com was a guy from NZ called Danny. The solicitation spam for investing in PECUNIX came from Danny N. Mallinder of NZ. Same or coincidence? It amazes me to think that somebody believes that today's investors will invest in a dream. Now-a-days they want to see a working proof of concept - that the plan is developed, tested and it works. And, that you have experienced people who can carry out the plan, and continue to make the business grow. And, forget the costs of technology - it's what is needed to generate business that's important to investors. George --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[e-gold-list] RE: pecunix fun.
George Matyjewicz wrote: It amazes me to think that somebody believes that today's investors will invest in a dream. Now-a-days they want to see a working proof of concept - that the plan is developed, tested and it works. Yes, isn't it fantastic that e-gold has done this for us. And, that you have experienced people who can carry out the plan, and continue to make the business grow. Yes I agree, when you have the right people behind the business this is easy. Guys with solid qualifications and experience give investors great confidence. And, forget the costs of technology - it's what is needed to generate business that's important to investors. True, the technology is the easy part (see e-gold); its getting the business to fly that takes skill, determination, imagination and a bit of innovative flair... show that to the investors and they love you. Best regards, Sidd. --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
