Re: [Elecraft] Center-fed antennas

[Richard Corfield]

I don't do field day. I've been using monoband dipoles so far for portable
operations due to cost and weight constraints. They work incredibly well,
and I hope to go out with a high Q antenna for 30m and a long pole to try
end fed vertical. (My long pole seems stuck in the post! Courier emailed.).
That said, an antenna which really should be 30m only due to its resonant
matching circuit can be operated on neighbouring bands using the KX3's
tuner. I've had contacts over reasonable distance on 40m with it.

The multiband antennae seem attractive for things like SOTA and single
station operation. At the moment I need to drop my antenna and change links
around to change band. It doesn't take too long to be fair. I'll experiment
with a multiband off centre fed antenna which, even if it ends up too heavy
to carry up a mountain, could make a useful home station antenna. At the
moment my portable setup is set up in the garden but I wonder how well the
home made antenna will stand up to our increasingly winter weather.

 - Richard


On Fri, 11 Oct 2019 at 00:57, Al Lorona  wrote:

> Fair enough, but it kinda goes without saying that in a group FD with 1
> station per band they'll use resonant, single-band antennas. If this is our
> best argument against the 'multiband dipole', then that antenna still holds
> its own pretty well in a multitude of other situations.
>
> I have always found a deep resistance and opposition to this antenna.
> Whether it's an unwillingness to use antenna tuners, which many hams have,
> or an undue fear of noise, which some hams have, or a belief that open-wire
> line is noisier/weirder/harder/impossible-to-go-through-walls, which many
> hams believe, the visceral reaction against this antenna always amazes and
> baffles me.
>
> Please forgive my belligerence... the Dodgers lost and I've been in a sour
> mood all day.
>
> Al  W6LX
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Re: [Elecraft] Center-fed antennas

[Vic Rosenthal]

You bet. The Johnson Matchbox is as good as any expensive band pass filter.

Victor 4X6GP 

> On 11 Oct 2019, at 2:57, Joe Subich, W4TV  wrote:
> 
> 
> The one "multiband" antenna one can use in a multi-transmitter
> configuration is the flat-top with open wire feeders and a
> *Link coupled* tuner.  The link coupled tuner is a bandpass filter
> that significantly reduces harmonic/broadband noise just like the
> "Q" of a single band antenna.
> 
> 73,
> 
>   ... Joe, W4TV
> 
> 
>> On 2019-10-10 7:44 PM, Don Wilhelm wrote:
>> Bob,
>> Bandpass filters at each station will help a lot, but they do not have 
>> infinite out of band rejection.
>> There is still a huge benefit with single band antennas.  My club uses both.
>> Last Field Day (3F operation) one station got on the air with a multiband 
>> vertical, and all other operators jumped on that operator to shut him down 
>> quickly!  The multi-band antenna radiated harmonics of the radio.  Even 
>> though the transmitter met the -43 dB harmonic required by the FCC, the 
>> proximity of the multiband antenna to other antennas caused problems (that 
>> station was not using a bandpass filter).
>> So for Field Day multi-station operation, single band antennas, bandpass 
>> filters and transmitters with low phase noise are important.  We were not 
>> able to orient the antennas end to end due to space considerations at the 
>> EOC site, so we had to compromise on that, which makes the other factors 
>> very important.
>> I need to point out that as an experiment, a 2nd station used an antenna on 
>> 20 meters separated from the main 20 meters, and we were able to operate one 
>> on CW (K3) at the same time as the other station (Icom) used digital and SSB 
>> modes.  We had some mutual interference, but it was minimal.  The K3 did not 
>> interfere much with the Icom due to the K3's low phase noise, but the Icom 
>> did raise the background noise level on the K3.
>> 73,
>> Don W3FPR
> 
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Re: [Elecraft] Center-fed antennas

[Vic Rosenthal]

Things I’ve learned by experience:

In 63 years as a ham, I’ve had several :-) HF antennas. The ones that gave me 
the greatest overall satisfaction have been balanced, horizontal antennas. The 
worst have been verticals with inadequate radial systems or low random-length 
wires. Inverted Vs with angles less than 90 degrees between the wires are not 
much good, either.

There is no simpler way to make an efficient multiband antenna than to feed a 
dipole of at least 1/2 wavelength at the lowest frequency with open wire line. 
With some care in choosing the length of the line, a 1/4 wave dipole can work 
almost as well. I’ve worked over 300 countries on CW in the last 5 years on the 
bands from 40-10m with a 10m long rotary dipole, in an urban area (it is up 35m 
on a building and I run a kW, I admit). I regularly bust pileups on 40m with it.

1:1 baluns work to feed open wire lines, but can become inefficient in some 
circumstances and heat up. It’s possible to solve this by compensating for 
reactance with a pair of capacitors or inductors before the balun, but a better 
solution is a true balanced antenna tuner. 

“True Ladder Line” is a good product, but it’s easy to make your own, and you 
can use no. 12 (2 mm) wire for lower loss.

Sometimes a 4:1 balun may give a better match, but it will be less efficient 
(heat) and do a poorer job of keeping RF out of the shack.

Nothing has worked better for me at cleaning up RF in the shack than an old 
Johnson Matchbox, a true balanced tuner.

Victor 4X6GP 

> On 10 Oct 2019, at 23:56, Lyn Norstad  wrote:
> 
> I'm having great success with a horizontal center-fed "dipole" that has been 
> sized (360 feet long) to be an Extended Double Zepp (4.7 dbi gain) and cut 
> for the low end of 80 meters.  I feed it with 600 ohm "True" Ladder Line from 
> a Balun Designs Hybrid Balun (1:1 Current and 4:1 Voltage all in one case).  
> A short run of coax from the balun to my KAT500, and I am in business at any 
> frequency on 160 - 6 meters.
> 
> It's oriented to be an effective NVIS radiator in a N-S pattern on 80m, by 
> design, and to have major lobes on the other bands in other directions - also 
> by design.  For me, it's the most efficient and effective way to utilize our 
> lot space (400 feet clear) and still be "under the radar" in our HOA.
> 
> Birds seem to like it, and I find that it seems to be especially attractive 
> to Hummingbirds, my XYL's favorites.  A win-win, in my book.
> 
> 73
> Lyn, WØLEN
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net 
> [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Al Lorona
> Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2019 3:25 PM
> To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net; David Gilbert
> Subject: [Elecraft] Center-fed antennas
> 
> My experience with single vertical or sloping wires is exactly the same as 
> AB7E's. I have, over almost twice as many Field Days as Dave, come to a 
> similar conclusion, with the slight difference being my preference for an 
> "all-band dipole" fed with balanced line. This obviates the balun and reduces 
> feedline loss to negligible, so obviously I am maximizing efficiency at the 
> expense of any other possible advantage. (I can usually hear much better than 
> I can be heard... so thus far this has been a valid decision.)
> 
> To sum up what I and what I think Dave are saying, you can't beat a 
> horizontal, center-fed wire up as high as you can get it. Its simplicity, the 
> flexibility it gives you to QSY (with a good tuner), and its high efficiency 
> are almost unbeatable.
> 
> As a side note, the center-fed horizontal wire I have used here at home is 
> totally non-resonant. I don't even know how long it is. Once you give up the 
> obsession with resonant antenna length, you gain a huge freedom of choice.
> 
> In the bottom of the sunspot cycle, these advantages are somewhat reduced 
> because an op, especially on Field Day, might opt to forget about any band 
> higher than 20 meters -- and these days even 20 is questionable. This means 
> you can probably make do with coaxial cable and a balun for operation on 2 or 
> 3 bands but the general idea still holds.
> 
> Al  W6LX
> 
> 
>> Yes, a center fed normal dipole with the middle (high current portion) 
>> higher off the ground (say 50 feet for 40m) and a common mode choke at 
>> the feedpoint would almost assuredly perform better. 
>> 
>> 73,
>> Dave   AB7E
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Re: [Elecraft] Center-fed antennas

[Jim Brown]

On 10/10/2019 4:56 PM, Al Lorona wrote:

an undue fear of noise, which some hams have, 


NO fear of noise is undue. It is EVERYWHERE, and it gets worse every day!

73, Jim K9YC

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[Elecraft] FS: KPA500 + KAT500

[N4PL via Elecraft]

I recently upgraded to KPA1500 but kept the '500 as a spare.Finally, I decided 
to let it find a good home.
$2000 plus shipping
or a local pick-up in Atlanta area.
The PA and the tuner are in a great shape.  Look brand new.  Never had any 
problems.K3 cables are included.
Will send photos on request.
73, Wald N4PL
n...@yahoo.com ‪(770) 765-5646‬ 


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Re: [Elecraft] Center-fed antennas

[Mike Flowers]

Extra Class licensees vs. Extra Class Operators ... huge delta there ...

-- 73 de Mike Flowers, K6MKF, NCDXC - "It's about DX!"

> On Oct 10, 2019, at 4:12 PM, Bob McGraw K4TAX  wrote:
> 
> I used my Johnson Matchbox at our Field Day event about 3 years ago.   I 
> went through each band and several frequencies on each band and compiled a 
> written chart identifying the settings for each band/frequency.After 2 
> hours of trying to work stations on 20M,  the radio failed and they came to 
> wake me from my late night nap.   The result is the Matchbox was adjusted for 
> 80M in the CW portion and the operators were complaining of high SWR and no 
> power output on 20M.   It took 2 hrs for them to observe this?I was 
> amazed at the number of "Extra Class" operators at the site that thought the 
> tuner was automatic and would change with band / frequency changes on the 
> radio.  The radio by the way WAS NOT an Elecraft product.
> 
> 73
> 
> Bob, K4TAX
> 
> 
> 
>> On 10/10/2019 7:35 PM, Don Wilhelm wrote:
>> Joe,
>> 
>> I agree completely, bring your Johnson Matchbox to the next Field Day! Or 
>> even your old plug-in coil open frame link coupled balanced tuner.
>> 
>> Who has a link coupled tuner (like the Johnson Matchbox) these days? Those 
>> are big boat anchor box these days (and hard to find).  I have one that sees 
>> little use, but I am not willing to part with it.  It does a good job when 
>> needed.
>> 
>> Most autotuners are of the L-network design and the manual tuners are 
>> typically T-network - the L-network can be a high pass or a low pass filter, 
>> but the more common T-network is always a high pass filter.  If one has an 
>> old Collins tuner, it may be a Pi-network which is a low pass filter.
>> 
>> As you pointed out, the link coupled tuner is a bandpass filter, but fixed 
>> tune bandpass filters will do just as well for multi-station operation.
>> 
>> 73,
>> Don W3FPR
>> 
> 
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Re: [Elecraft] KX2 Antenna Curiosity

[Bob McGraw K4TAX]

The only issue I've encountered with single band antennas, to staff a 
Field Day site to operate 2 or 3 stations per band, and 5 bands, there 
needs to be some 10 to 15 antennas erected.    Where as a single 135 ft 
wire with a balanced feed system, a good 1:1 balun, and a good tuner 
{not one of those internal radio 3:1 tuners} will allow each station to 
operate 5 bands with one antenna.   Thus 3 stations = 3 antennas.   That 
greatly simplifies operation and installation.


After all Field Day was conceived to allow hams to operate under less 
than ideal conditions and to commence operation as expediently as 
possible.   I don't think installing 10 to 15 antennas for 2 or 3 
stations falls under the definition of expediently.


I totally agree with Joe, W4TV where he says "The one "multiband" 
antenna one can use in a multi-transmitter
configuration is the flat-top with open wire feeders and a *Link 
coupled* tuner.  The link coupled tuner is a bandpass filter
that significantly reduces harmonic/broadband noise just like the "Q" of 
a single band antenna."


The optimum end result of any multi transmitter site is to have clean 
transmitters.   We've been begging for better receivers, now it is time 
to beg for cleaner transmitters.


73

Bob, K4TAX



On 10/10/2019 1:59 PM, Tim N9PUZ wrote:

If you are talking about a single band dipole then any half wave dipole cut
to the standard formula and fed with good quality coax should work well. If
you want a "multi band" dipole then I would recommend cutting it for the
lowest frequency you plan to operate and feeding it with balanced line.
Even the best coax can have a lot of loss under high SWR conditions
(between your tuner and the antenna feedpoint) whereas even at 1 10:1 SWR
balanced line does not have much loss. The radiation pattern of a multi
band configuration can vary a lot from band to band.

The end fed wire you describe is not specific to the KX2. You typically
want the longest wire possible that is NOT a half wavelength or even
multiple on any band you want to operate. The main reason for this is when
a wire is a half wave or an even multiple the impedance at the end of the
wire can be very high and it is more difficult for most tuners to obtain a
match there. By it NOT being a half wave, the impedance is lower and a wide
range tuner like the one in your KX2 can match it more easily and present
the proper impedance to the radio.

Here is an article that suggests good lengths for a "random wire" antenna.
The lengths aren't really very random, they are specifically chosen to be
easier to match. At 58.5 feet you arrived at one of the good lengths.



Tim N9PUZ

On Thu, Oct 10, 2019 at 11:03 AM Joseph Shuman via Elecraft <
elecraft@mailman.qth.net> wrote:


I have had my KX2 with the ATU for about 10 months and operate on 40m QRP
SSB from various locations.  Experimenting with different antennas I have
experienced best results with a 58.5’ wire tossed about 25’ up a tree with
a 16.5’ counterpoise.  I ran the same length wire from my house to the
workshop, grounded the shield side of the cable, and have seen similar
results to the field setup.

Is there some engineering/design factor of the KX2 for this type of
antenna setup?  I am planning to setup a Dipole at home, but as a newbie am
wondering if the “ideal” Ham Dipole can be expected to improve performance.

Keeping Watch-
shu

Joe Shuman
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Re: [Elecraft] Center-fed antennas

[K2bew]

That's a sad commentary on the state of modern ham radio
To, k2bew

On Thu, Oct 10, 2019, 10:12 PM Bob McGraw K4TAX  wrote:

> I used my Johnson Matchbox at our Field Day event about 3 years ago.   I
> went through each band and several frequencies on each band and compiled
> a written chart identifying the settings for each band/frequency.
> After 2 hours of trying to work stations on 20M,  the radio failed and
> they came to wake me from my late night nap.   The result is the
> Matchbox was adjusted for 80M in the CW portion and the operators were
> complaining of high SWR and no power output on 20M.   It took 2 hrs for
> them to observe this?I was amazed at the number of "Extra Class"
> operators at the site that thought the tuner was automatic and would
> change with band / frequency changes on the radio.  The radio by the way
> WAS NOT an Elecraft product.
>
> 73
>
> Bob, K4TAX
>
>
>
> On 10/10/2019 7:35 PM, Don Wilhelm wrote:
> > Joe,
> >
> > I agree completely, bring your Johnson Matchbox to the next Field Day!
> > Or even your old plug-in coil open frame link coupled balanced tuner.
> >
> > Who has a link coupled tuner (like the Johnson Matchbox) these days?
> > Those are big boat anchor box these days (and hard to find).  I have
> > one that sees little use, but I am not willing to part with it.  It
> > does a good job when needed.
> >
> > Most autotuners are of the L-network design and the manual tuners are
> > typically T-network - the L-network can be a high pass or a low pass
> > filter, but the more common T-network is always a high pass filter.
> > If one has an old Collins tuner, it may be a Pi-network which is a low
> > pass filter.
> >
> > As you pointed out, the link coupled tuner is a bandpass filter, but
> > fixed tune bandpass filters will do just as well for multi-station
> > operation.
> >
> > 73,
> > Don W3FPR
> >
>
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Re: [Elecraft] Center-fed antennas

[Bob McGraw K4TAX]

I used my Johnson Matchbox at our Field Day event about 3 years ago.   I 
went through each band and several frequencies on each band and compiled 
a written chart identifying the settings for each band/frequency.    
After 2 hours of trying to work stations on 20M,  the radio failed and 
they came to wake me from my late night nap.   The result is the 
Matchbox was adjusted for 80M in the CW portion and the operators were 
complaining of high SWR and no power output on 20M.   It took 2 hrs for 
them to observe this?    I was amazed at the number of "Extra Class" 
operators at the site that thought the tuner was automatic and would 
change with band / frequency changes on the radio.  The radio by the way 
WAS NOT an Elecraft product.


73

Bob, K4TAX



On 10/10/2019 7:35 PM, Don Wilhelm wrote:

Joe,

I agree completely, bring your Johnson Matchbox to the next Field Day! 
Or even your old plug-in coil open frame link coupled balanced tuner.


Who has a link coupled tuner (like the Johnson Matchbox) these days? 
Those are big boat anchor box these days (and hard to find).  I have 
one that sees little use, but I am not willing to part with it.  It 
does a good job when needed.


Most autotuners are of the L-network design and the manual tuners are 
typically T-network - the L-network can be a high pass or a low pass 
filter, but the more common T-network is always a high pass filter.  
If one has an old Collins tuner, it may be a Pi-network which is a low 
pass filter.


As you pointed out, the link coupled tuner is a bandpass filter, but 
fixed tune bandpass filters will do just as well for multi-station 
operation.


73,
Don W3FPR



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Re: [Elecraft] Center-fed antennas

[Ed Pflueger]

At W4NJA (3A) for Field Day we use three Dipoles (Cut for the low end of 80
meters) fed with 450 Ohm ladder line into a DXEngineering Balun with less
than ten feet of coax into the rig.  The feed line is cut at odd multiples
and the antennas are spaced in a straight line end to end with separation of
course.  We can run three stations on the same band but different modes with
no interaction.  We used to use G5RV's, verticals, beams etc. but have opted
for this configuration because it works.  No problem with K3's, Omni VII's
tuners to tune the bands.  I have the actual length's that the three are cut
for but they are stored at another location.  I actually got the information
from DXEngineering somewhere on their web pages.

Ed.. AB4IQ

-Original Message-
From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net
[mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Don Wilhelm
Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2019 6:44 PM
To: Bob McGraw K4TAX ; elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Center-fed antennas

Bob,

Bandpass filters at each station will help a lot, but they do not have
infinite out of band rejection.
There is still a huge benefit with single band antennas.  My club uses both.

Last Field Day (3F operation) one station got on the air with a multiband
vertical, and all other operators jumped on that operator to shut him down
quickly!  The multi-band antenna radiated harmonics of the radio.  Even
though the transmitter met the -43 dB harmonic required by the FCC, the
proximity of the multiband antenna to other antennas caused problems (that
station was not using a bandpass filter).

So for Field Day multi-station operation, single band antennas, bandpass
filters and transmitters with low phase noise are important.  We were not
able to orient the antennas end to end due to space considerations at the
EOC site, so we had to compromise on that, which makes the other factors
very important.

I need to point out that as an experiment, a 2nd station used an antenna on
20 meters separated from the main 20 meters, and we were able to operate one
on CW (K3) at the same time as the other station (Icom) used digital and SSB
modes.  We had some mutual interference, but it was minimal.  The K3 did not
interfere much with the Icom due to the K3's low phase noise, but the Icom
did raise the background noise level on the K3.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 10/10/2019 7:12 PM, Bob McGraw K4TAX wrote:
> I thought a Band Pass Filter at each station resolved that issue.
> 
> 73
> 
> Bob, K4TAX
> 
> On 10/10/2019 5:27 PM, Ken G Kopp wrote:
>> Well-said, Don.
>>
>> 73!
>>
>> Ken Kopp - K0PP
>>
>> On Thu, Oct 10, 2019, 16:23 Don Wilhelm  wrote:
>>
>>> All this talk of multi-band antennas for Field Day ignores the 
>>> problem of multi-station Field Day operation.
>>> There is sufficient pickup of one transmitter's energy on the 
>>> antenna being used by a receiver on another band.
>>> For that reason, my club has banned the use of multiband antennas 
>>> for Field Day operation.
>>>
>>> For a single station Field Day operation, the multiband antennas are 
>>> great.
>>>
>>> 73,
>>> Don W3FPR
>>>
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Re: [Elecraft] Center-fed antennas

[Don Wilhelm]

Joe,

I agree completely, bring your Johnson Matchbox to the next Field Day! 
Or even your old plug-in coil open frame link coupled balanced tuner.


Who has a link coupled tuner (like the Johnson Matchbox) these days? 
Those are big boat anchor box these days (and hard to find).  I have one 
that sees little use, but I am not willing to part with it.  It does a 
good job when needed.


Most autotuners are of the L-network design and the manual tuners are 
typically T-network - the L-network can be a high pass or a low pass 
filter, but the more common T-network is always a high pass filter.  If 
one has an old Collins tuner, it may be a Pi-network which is a low pass 
filter.


As you pointed out, the link coupled tuner is a bandpass filter, but 
fixed tune bandpass filters will do just as well for multi-station 
operation.


73,
Don W3FPR

On 10/10/2019 7:57 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:


The one "multiband" antenna one can use in a multi-transmitter
configuration is the flat-top with open wire feeders and a
*Link coupled* tuner.  The link coupled tuner is a bandpass filter
that significantly reduces harmonic/broadband noise just like the
"Q" of a single band antenna.

73,

    ... Joe, W4TV


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[Elecraft] FS: P3 w/SVGA

[Dave]

Excellent P3 with SVGA option. Contact off-list n...@comcast.net


Sent from Mail for Windows 10

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Re: [Elecraft] Center-fed antennas

[Jack Brindle via Elecraft]

As usual, there are exceptions to everything. A multi-band beam, such as a C3S 
or the modern equivalent, will perform incredibly well when used with bandpass 
filters and a triplexer. The 10,15 and 20 meter stations all will use the 
antenna through the triplexer/BPFs with no issues. This also turns out to be a 
favorite setup for many SO2R and M/2 stations at both low and high power. The 
key is port-to-port isolation through the triplexer/BPFs. It is extremely 
important that all components can handle the power level in use. Also very 
important is that the radios have very low spurs and phase noise (i.e. need to 
have clean signals on transmit). The K3/K3S meets the bill, as do recent Flex 
Radio SDRs. As Rob Sherwood has pointed out recently, the transmit issue (See 
Oct QST and hi Dayton Contest Forum talk this past May) is pretty big in most 
radios. They have been paying attention to receiver issues, but not 
transmitter. We are very lucky that Wayne, Eric and friends have been p
 aying attention to this issue for many years.

73!
Jack, W6FB


> On Oct 10, 2019, at 4:44 PM, Don Wilhelm  wrote:
> 
> Bob,
> 
> Bandpass filters at each station will help a lot, but they do not have 
> infinite out of band rejection.
> There is still a huge benefit with single band antennas.  My club uses both.
> 
> Last Field Day (3F operation) one station got on the air with a multiband 
> vertical, and all other operators jumped on that operator to shut him down 
> quickly!  The multi-band antenna radiated harmonics of the radio.  Even 
> though the transmitter met the -43 dB harmonic required by the FCC, the 
> proximity of the multiband antenna to other antennas caused problems (that 
> station was not using a bandpass filter).
> 
> So for Field Day multi-station operation, single band antennas, bandpass 
> filters and transmitters with low phase noise are important.  We were not 
> able to orient the antennas end to end due to space considerations at the EOC 
> site, so we had to compromise on that, which makes the other factors very 
> important.
> 
> I need to point out that as an experiment, a 2nd station used an antenna on 
> 20 meters separated from the main 20 meters, and we were able to operate one 
> on CW (K3) at the same time as the other station (Icom) used digital and SSB 
> modes.  We had some mutual interference, but it was minimal.  The K3 did not 
> interfere much with the Icom due to the K3's low phase noise, but the Icom 
> did raise the background noise level on the K3.
> 
> 73,
> Don W3FPR
> 
> On 10/10/2019 7:12 PM, Bob McGraw K4TAX wrote:
>> I thought a Band Pass Filter at each station resolved that issue.
>> 73
>> Bob, K4TAX
>> On 10/10/2019 5:27 PM, Ken G Kopp wrote:
>>> Well-said, Don.
>>> 
>>> 73!
>>> 
>>> Ken Kopp - K0PP
>>> 
>>> On Thu, Oct 10, 2019, 16:23 Don Wilhelm  wrote:
>>> 
 All this talk of multi-band antennas for Field Day ignores the problem
 of multi-station Field Day operation.
 There is sufficient pickup of one transmitter's energy on the antenna
 being used by a receiver on another band.
 For that reason, my club has banned the use of multiband antennas for
 Field Day operation.
 
 For a single station Field Day operation, the multiband antennas are great.
 
 73,
 Don W3FPR
 
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Re: [Elecraft] Center-fed antennas

[Joe Subich, W4TV]

The one "multiband" antenna one can use in a multi-transmitter
configuration is the flat-top with open wire feeders and a
*Link coupled* tuner.  The link coupled tuner is a bandpass filter
that significantly reduces harmonic/broadband noise just like the
"Q" of a single band antenna.

73,

   ... Joe, W4TV


On 2019-10-10 7:44 PM, Don Wilhelm wrote:

Bob,

Bandpass filters at each station will help a lot, but they do not have 
infinite out of band rejection.
There is still a huge benefit with single band antennas.  My club uses 
both.


Last Field Day (3F operation) one station got on the air with a 
multiband vertical, and all other operators jumped on that operator to 
shut him down quickly!  The multi-band antenna radiated harmonics of the 
radio.  Even though the transmitter met the -43 dB harmonic required by 
the FCC, the proximity of the multiband antenna to other antennas caused 
problems (that station was not using a bandpass filter).


So for Field Day multi-station operation, single band antennas, bandpass 
filters and transmitters with low phase noise are important.  We were 
not able to orient the antennas end to end due to space considerations 
at the EOC site, so we had to compromise on that, which makes the other 
factors very important.


I need to point out that as an experiment, a 2nd station used an antenna 
on 20 meters separated from the main 20 meters, and we were able to 
operate one on CW (K3) at the same time as the other station (Icom) used 
digital and SSB modes.  We had some mutual interference, but it was 
minimal.  The K3 did not interfere much with the Icom due to the K3's 
low phase noise, but the Icom did raise the background noise level on 
the K3.


73,
Don W3FPR



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Re: [Elecraft] Center-fed antennas

[Al Lorona]

Fair enough, but it kinda goes without saying that in a group FD with 1 station 
per band they'll use resonant, single-band antennas. If this is our best 
argument against the 'multiband dipole', then that antenna still holds its own 
pretty well in a multitude of other situations.

I have always found a deep resistance and opposition to this antenna. Whether 
it's an unwillingness to use antenna tuners, which many hams have, or an undue 
fear of noise, which some hams have, or a belief that open-wire line is 
noisier/weirder/harder/impossible-to-go-through-walls, which many hams believe, 
the visceral reaction against this antenna always amazes and baffles me.

Please forgive my belligerence... the Dodgers lost and I've been in a sour mood 
all day.

Al  W6LX
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Re: [Elecraft] Center-fed antennas

[Don Wilhelm]

Bob,

Bandpass filters at each station will help a lot, but they do not have 
infinite out of band rejection.

There is still a huge benefit with single band antennas.  My club uses both.

Last Field Day (3F operation) one station got on the air with a 
multiband vertical, and all other operators jumped on that operator to 
shut him down quickly!  The multi-band antenna radiated harmonics of the 
radio.  Even though the transmitter met the -43 dB harmonic required by 
the FCC, the proximity of the multiband antenna to other antennas caused 
problems (that station was not using a bandpass filter).


So for Field Day multi-station operation, single band antennas, bandpass 
filters and transmitters with low phase noise are important.  We were 
not able to orient the antennas end to end due to space considerations 
at the EOC site, so we had to compromise on that, which makes the other 
factors very important.


I need to point out that as an experiment, a 2nd station used an antenna 
on 20 meters separated from the main 20 meters, and we were able to 
operate one on CW (K3) at the same time as the other station (Icom) used 
digital and SSB modes.  We had some mutual interference, but it was 
minimal.  The K3 did not interfere much with the Icom due to the K3's 
low phase noise, but the Icom did raise the background noise level on 
the K3.


73,
Don W3FPR

On 10/10/2019 7:12 PM, Bob McGraw K4TAX wrote:

I thought a Band Pass Filter at each station resolved that issue.

73

Bob, K4TAX

On 10/10/2019 5:27 PM, Ken G Kopp wrote:

Well-said, Don.

73!

Ken Kopp - K0PP

On Thu, Oct 10, 2019, 16:23 Don Wilhelm  wrote:


All this talk of multi-band antennas for Field Day ignores the problem
of multi-station Field Day operation.
There is sufficient pickup of one transmitter's energy on the antenna
being used by a receiver on another band.
For that reason, my club has banned the use of multiband antennas for
Field Day operation.

For a single station Field Day operation, the multiband antennas are 
great.


73,
Don W3FPR


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Re: [Elecraft] K$ Delivery Euope

[jeff griffin]

Well me too 

73 Jeff kb2m

-Original Message-
From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net
[mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Macy monkeys
Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2019 5:32 PM
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K$ Delivery Euope

Am I the only one finding the K$ typo mildly amusing?   :)

John K7FD

> On Oct 10, 2019, at 2:15 PM, Ray Spreadbury via Elecraft
 wrote:
> 
> Hi Udo
> 
> I spoke to Eric at the UK Hamfest a couple of weeks ago. He said that
> probably deliveries to Europe would be more like May/June/July with some
> early examples perhaps being available to European Retailers  for demos a
> bit earlier. 
> 
> I also Emailed Elecraft Sales last week to enquire if I could get one in
> Jan/Feb (the same as USA I think) by paying the deposit directly to
> Elecraft.
> 
> I received an answer from Madelyn Gomez a day later that before ANY
> deliveries are made to Europe, the K4 will have to achieve European CE
> Approval.
> 
> Not sure what happens if the UK leave the EU at end October with Brexit !!
> 
> 73 Ray G3XLG
> 
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Re: [Elecraft] Center-fed antennas

[Rick WA6NHC]

I have over 200 countries on a similar antenna, though I had to use 
another tuner than the KAT500, for 160M. Average height was about 35'.


Just keep the coax short, like under 10' and as much center fed wire as 
you can put in the air, it'll play.  It won't rock your world, it'll 
make you work for some of the DX, but that teaches patience and 
operating technique, still win-win.


Rick nhc


On 10/10/2019 1:56 PM, Lyn Norstad wrote:

I'm having great success with a horizontal center-fed "dipole" that has been sized (360 
feet long) to be an Extended Double Zepp (4.7 dbi gain) and cut for the low end of 80 meters.  I 
feed it with 600 ohm "True" Ladder Line from a Balun Designs Hybrid Balun (1:1 Current 
and 4:1 Voltage all in one case).  A short run of coax from the balun to my KAT500, and I am in 
business at any frequency on 160 - 6 meters.

It's oriented to be an effective NVIS radiator in a N-S pattern on 80m, by design, and to 
have major lobes on the other bands in other directions - also by design.  For me, it's 
the most efficient and effective way to utilize our lot space (400 feet clear) and still 
be "under the radar" in our HOA.

Birds seem to like it, and I find that it seems to be especially attractive to 
Hummingbirds, my XYL's favorites.  A win-win, in my book.

73
Lyn, WØLEN


-Original Message-
From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net 
[mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Al Lorona
Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2019 3:25 PM
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net; David Gilbert
Subject: [Elecraft] Center-fed antennas

My experience with single vertical or sloping wires is exactly the same as AB7E's. I 
have, over almost twice as many Field Days as Dave, come to a similar conclusion, with 
the slight difference being my preference for an "all-band dipole" fed with 
balanced line. This obviates the balun and reduces feedline loss to negligible, so 
obviously I am maximizing efficiency at the expense of any other possible advantage. (I 
can usually hear much better than I can be heard... so thus far this has been a valid 
decision.)

To sum up what I and what I think Dave are saying, you can't beat a horizontal, 
center-fed wire up as high as you can get it. Its simplicity, the flexibility 
it gives you to QSY (with a good tuner), and its high efficiency are almost 
unbeatable.

As a side note, the center-fed horizontal wire I have used here at home is 
totally non-resonant. I don't even know how long it is. Once you give up the 
obsession with resonant antenna length, you gain a huge freedom of choice.

In the bottom of the sunspot cycle, these advantages are somewhat reduced 
because an op, especially on Field Day, might opt to forget about any band 
higher than 20 meters -- and these days even 20 is questionable. This means you 
can probably make do with coaxial cable and a balun for operation on 2 or 3 
bands but the general idea still holds.

Al  W6LX



Yes, a center fed normal dipole with the middle (high current portion)
higher off the ground (say 50 feet for 40m) and a common mode choke at
the feedpoint would almost assuredly perform better.

73,
Dave   AB7E

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Re: [Elecraft] Center-fed antennas

[Bob McGraw K4TAX]

I thought a Band Pass Filter at each station resolved that issue.

73

Bob, K4TAX

On 10/10/2019 5:27 PM, Ken G Kopp wrote:

Well-said, Don.

73!

Ken Kopp - K0PP

On Thu, Oct 10, 2019, 16:23 Don Wilhelm  wrote:


All this talk of multi-band antennas for Field Day ignores the problem
of multi-station Field Day operation.
There is sufficient pickup of one transmitter's energy on the antenna
being used by a receiver on another band.
For that reason, my club has banned the use of multiband antennas for
Field Day operation.

For a single station Field Day operation, the multiband antennas are great.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 10/10/2019 5:32 PM, David Lee / Seatools wrote:

On Thu, Oct 10, 2019 at 2:06 PM Fred Jensen  wrote:


Yes, however ... a center-fed dipole long enough to be moderately close
to a half-wave at 40 will develop a serious case of acute lobe-itis when
operated at higher frequencies, squirting your RF in a variety of
directions, many of which may not be productive for your intended
objective.  Try, as many have over the years, to design the "magic
antenna" that is very small, provides a 1:1 match on all bands, easily
installed, and exhibits good gain, your effort will inevitably fail.  As
JC Maxwell is reported to have said, "Physics is physics, the rules are
unbreakable."  A log-periodic will give very modest gain over an octave
or more, however LP's hardly fall into the Field Antenna class. [:-)

73,
Fred ["Skip"] K6DGW
Sparks NV DM09dn
Washoe County

On 10/10/2019 1:24 PM, Al Lorona wrote:

My experience with single vertical or sloping wires is exactly the same

as AB7E's. I have, over almost twice as many Field Days as Dave, come

to a

similar conclusion, with the slight difference being my preference for

an

"all-band dipole" fed with balanced line. This obviates the balun and
reduces feedline loss to negligible, so obviously I am maximizing
efficiency at the expense of any other possible advantage. (I can

usually

hear much better than I can be heard... so thus far this has been a

valid

decision.)

To sum up what I and what I think Dave are saying, you can't beat a

horizontal, center-fed wire up as high as you can get it. Its

simplicity,

the flexibility it gives you to QSY (with a good tuner), and its high
efficiency are almost unbeatable.

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Re: [Elecraft] K$ Delivery Euope

[Fred Jensen]

No, I too wondered if it was accidental [$ is above 4], or a subtle 
message ... [:-)


73,
Fred ["Skip"] K6DGW
Sparks NV DM09dn
Washoe County

On 10/10/2019 2:31 PM, Macy monkeys wrote:

Am I the only one finding the K$ typo mildly amusing?   :)

John K7FD



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[Elecraft] Center-fed antennas

[Ken G Kopp]

Well-said, Don.

73!

Ken Kopp - K0PP

On Thu, Oct 10, 2019, 16:23 Don Wilhelm  wrote:

> All this talk of multi-band antennas for Field Day ignores the problem
> of multi-station Field Day operation.
> There is sufficient pickup of one transmitter's energy on the antenna
> being used by a receiver on another band.
> For that reason, my club has banned the use of multiband antennas for
> Field Day operation.
>
> For a single station Field Day operation, the multiband antennas are great.
>
> 73,
> Don W3FPR
>
> On 10/10/2019 5:32 PM, David Lee / Seatools wrote:
> > On Thu, Oct 10, 2019 at 2:06 PM Fred Jensen  wrote:
> >
> >> Yes, however ... a center-fed dipole long enough to be moderately close
> >> to a half-wave at 40 will develop a serious case of acute lobe-itis when
> >> operated at higher frequencies, squirting your RF in a variety of
> >> directions, many of which may not be productive for your intended
> >> objective.  Try, as many have over the years, to design the "magic
> >> antenna" that is very small, provides a 1:1 match on all bands, easily
> >> installed, and exhibits good gain, your effort will inevitably fail.  As
> >> JC Maxwell is reported to have said, "Physics is physics, the rules are
> >> unbreakable."  A log-periodic will give very modest gain over an octave
> >> or more, however LP's hardly fall into the Field Antenna class. [:-)
> >>
> >> 73,
> >> Fred ["Skip"] K6DGW
> >> Sparks NV DM09dn
> >> Washoe County
> >>
> >> On 10/10/2019 1:24 PM, Al Lorona wrote:
> >>> My experience with single vertical or sloping wires is exactly the same
> >> as AB7E's. I have, over almost twice as many Field Days as Dave, come
> to a
> >> similar conclusion, with the slight difference being my preference for
> an
> >> "all-band dipole" fed with balanced line. This obviates the balun and
> >> reduces feedline loss to negligible, so obviously I am maximizing
> >> efficiency at the expense of any other possible advantage. (I can
> usually
> >> hear much better than I can be heard... so thus far this has been a
> valid
> >> decision.)
> >>>
> >>> To sum up what I and what I think Dave are saying, you can't beat a
> >> horizontal, center-fed wire up as high as you can get it. Its
> simplicity,
> >> the flexibility it gives you to QSY (with a good tuner), and its high
> >> efficiency are almost unbeatable.
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Re: [Elecraft] Center-fed antennas

[Al Lorona]

Precisely because of this objection and countless others, is why I expressly 
stated, "...at the expense of any other possible advantage." I think we all 
understand that there's no magic antenna. The 'magic' of the antenna we're 
discussing here is simplicity, all-frequency operation, and high efficiency. No 
other magical claims are being made.

Al  W6LX

>Yes, however ... a center-fed dipole long enough to be moderately close 
>to a half-wave at 40 will develop a serious case of acute lobe-itis when 
>operated at higher frequencies



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Re: [Elecraft] F/S - Elecraft K2/100 (REDUCED)

[Rick A.]

I have for sale a pristine condition Elecraft K2-100. This is my second
K2/100 rig and was meticulously built by me with the following options.
K2, KPA100, KNB2, KSB2, K60XV and K160RX. After completion the radio was
sent to Don Wilhelm, W3FPR for a check over and complete professional
calibration. I have all original paperwork, QRP cover and all cables
required. Does not come with a mic but is wired for Kenwood mic. I have
many photos from during the assembly so you can see the quality of the
build. Price is $1000.00 + shipping.

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Re: [Elecraft] Center-fed antennas

[Don Wilhelm]

All this talk of multi-band antennas for Field Day ignores the problem 
of multi-station Field Day operation.
There is sufficient pickup of one transmitter's energy on the antenna 
being used by a receiver on another band.
For that reason, my club has banned the use of multiband antennas for 
Field Day operation.


For a single station Field Day operation, the multiband antennas are great.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 10/10/2019 5:32 PM, David Lee / Seatools wrote:

On Thu, Oct 10, 2019 at 2:06 PM Fred Jensen  wrote:


Yes, however ... a center-fed dipole long enough to be moderately close
to a half-wave at 40 will develop a serious case of acute lobe-itis when
operated at higher frequencies, squirting your RF in a variety of
directions, many of which may not be productive for your intended
objective.  Try, as many have over the years, to design the "magic
antenna" that is very small, provides a 1:1 match on all bands, easily
installed, and exhibits good gain, your effort will inevitably fail.  As
JC Maxwell is reported to have said, "Physics is physics, the rules are
unbreakable."  A log-periodic will give very modest gain over an octave
or more, however LP's hardly fall into the Field Antenna class. [:-)

73,
Fred ["Skip"] K6DGW
Sparks NV DM09dn
Washoe County

On 10/10/2019 1:24 PM, Al Lorona wrote:

My experience with single vertical or sloping wires is exactly the same

as AB7E's. I have, over almost twice as many Field Days as Dave, come to a
similar conclusion, with the slight difference being my preference for an
"all-band dipole" fed with balanced line. This obviates the balun and
reduces feedline loss to negligible, so obviously I am maximizing
efficiency at the expense of any other possible advantage. (I can usually
hear much better than I can be heard... so thus far this has been a valid
decision.)


To sum up what I and what I think Dave are saying, you can't beat a

horizontal, center-fed wire up as high as you can get it. Its simplicity,
the flexibility it gives you to QSY (with a good tuner), and its high
efficiency are almost unbeatable.

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Re: [Elecraft] Center-fed antennas

[David Lee / Seatools]

On Thu, Oct 10, 2019 at 2:06 PM Fred Jensen  wrote:

> Yes, however ... a center-fed dipole long enough to be moderately close
> to a half-wave at 40 will develop a serious case of acute lobe-itis when
> operated at higher frequencies, squirting your RF in a variety of
> directions, many of which may not be productive for your intended
> objective.  Try, as many have over the years, to design the "magic
> antenna" that is very small, provides a 1:1 match on all bands, easily
> installed, and exhibits good gain, your effort will inevitably fail.  As
> JC Maxwell is reported to have said, "Physics is physics, the rules are
> unbreakable."  A log-periodic will give very modest gain over an octave
> or more, however LP's hardly fall into the Field Antenna class. [:-)
>
> 73,
> Fred ["Skip"] K6DGW
> Sparks NV DM09dn
> Washoe County
>
> On 10/10/2019 1:24 PM, Al Lorona wrote:
> > My experience with single vertical or sloping wires is exactly the same
> as AB7E's. I have, over almost twice as many Field Days as Dave, come to a
> similar conclusion, with the slight difference being my preference for an
> "all-band dipole" fed with balanced line. This obviates the balun and
> reduces feedline loss to negligible, so obviously I am maximizing
> efficiency at the expense of any other possible advantage. (I can usually
> hear much better than I can be heard... so thus far this has been a valid
> decision.)
> >
> > To sum up what I and what I think Dave are saying, you can't beat a
> horizontal, center-fed wire up as high as you can get it. Its simplicity,
> the flexibility it gives you to QSY (with a good tuner), and its high
> efficiency are almost unbeatable.
> >
> > As a side note, the center-fed horizontal wire I have used here at home
> is totally non-resonant. I don't even know how long it is. Once you give up
> the obsession with resonant antenna length, you gain a huge freedom of
> choice.
> >
> > In the bottom of the sunspot cycle, these advantages are somewhat
> reduced because an op, especially on Field Day, might opt to forget about
> any band higher than 20 meters -- and these days even 20 is questionable.
> This means you can probably make do with coaxial cable and a balun for
> operation on 2 or 3 bands but the general idea still holds.
> >
> > Al  W6LX
> >
>
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Re: [Elecraft] K$ Delivery Euope

[Macy monkeys]

Am I the only one finding the K$ typo mildly amusing?   :)

John K7FD

> On Oct 10, 2019, at 2:15 PM, Ray Spreadbury via Elecraft 
>  wrote:
> 
> Hi Udo
> 
> I spoke to Eric at the UK Hamfest a couple of weeks ago. He said that
> probably deliveries to Europe would be more like May/June/July with some
> early examples perhaps being available to European Retailers  for demos a
> bit earlier. 
> 
> I also Emailed Elecraft Sales last week to enquire if I could get one in
> Jan/Feb (the same as USA I think) by paying the deposit directly to
> Elecraft.
> 
> I received an answer from Madelyn Gomez a day later that before ANY
> deliveries are made to Europe, the K4 will have to achieve European CE
> Approval.
> 
> Not sure what happens if the UK leave the EU at end October with Brexit !!
> 
> 73 Ray G3XLG
> 
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[Elecraft] K$ Delivery Euope

[Ray Spreadbury via Elecraft]

Hi Udo

I spoke to Eric at the UK Hamfest a couple of weeks ago. He said that
probably deliveries to Europe would be more like May/June/July with some
early examples perhaps being available to European Retailers  for demos a
bit earlier. 

I also Emailed Elecraft Sales last week to enquire if I could get one in
Jan/Feb (the same as USA I think) by paying the deposit directly to
Elecraft.

I received an answer from Madelyn Gomez a day later that before ANY
deliveries are made to Europe, the K4 will have to achieve European CE
Approval.

Not sure what happens if the UK leave the EU at end October with Brexit !!

73 Ray G3XLG

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Re: [Elecraft] Center-fed antennas

[Fred Jensen]

Yes, however ... a center-fed dipole long enough to be moderately close 
to a half-wave at 40 will develop a serious case of acute lobe-itis when 
operated at higher frequencies, squirting your RF in a variety of 
directions, many of which may not be productive for your intended 
objective.  Try, as many have over the years, to design the "magic 
antenna" that is very small, provides a 1:1 match on all bands, easily 
installed, and exhibits good gain, your effort will inevitably fail.  As 
JC Maxwell is reported to have said, "Physics is physics, the rules are 
unbreakable."  A log-periodic will give very modest gain over an octave 
or more, however LP's hardly fall into the Field Antenna class. [:-)


73,
Fred ["Skip"] K6DGW
Sparks NV DM09dn
Washoe County

On 10/10/2019 1:24 PM, Al Lorona wrote:

My experience with single vertical or sloping wires is exactly the same as AB7E's. I 
have, over almost twice as many Field Days as Dave, come to a similar conclusion, with 
the slight difference being my preference for an "all-band dipole" fed with 
balanced line. This obviates the balun and reduces feedline loss to negligible, so 
obviously I am maximizing efficiency at the expense of any other possible advantage. (I 
can usually hear much better than I can be heard... so thus far this has been a valid 
decision.)

To sum up what I and what I think Dave are saying, you can't beat a horizontal, 
center-fed wire up as high as you can get it. Its simplicity, the flexibility 
it gives you to QSY (with a good tuner), and its high efficiency are almost 
unbeatable.

As a side note, the center-fed horizontal wire I have used here at home is 
totally non-resonant. I don't even know how long it is. Once you give up the 
obsession with resonant antenna length, you gain a huge freedom of choice.

In the bottom of the sunspot cycle, these advantages are somewhat reduced 
because an op, especially on Field Day, might opt to forget about any band 
higher than 20 meters -- and these days even 20 is questionable. This means you 
can probably make do with coaxial cable and a balun for operation on 2 or 3 
bands but the general idea still holds.

Al  W6LX



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Re: [Elecraft] Center-fed antennas

[Lyn Norstad]

I'm having great success with a horizontal center-fed "dipole" that has been 
sized (360 feet long) to be an Extended Double Zepp (4.7 dbi gain) and cut for 
the low end of 80 meters.  I feed it with 600 ohm "True" Ladder Line from a 
Balun Designs Hybrid Balun (1:1 Current and 4:1 Voltage all in one case).  A 
short run of coax from the balun to my KAT500, and I am in business at any 
frequency on 160 - 6 meters.

It's oriented to be an effective NVIS radiator in a N-S pattern on 80m, by 
design, and to have major lobes on the other bands in other directions - also 
by design.  For me, it's the most efficient and effective way to utilize our 
lot space (400 feet clear) and still be "under the radar" in our HOA.

Birds seem to like it, and I find that it seems to be especially attractive to 
Hummingbirds, my XYL's favorites.  A win-win, in my book.

73
Lyn, WØLEN


-Original Message-
From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net 
[mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Al Lorona
Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2019 3:25 PM
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net; David Gilbert
Subject: [Elecraft] Center-fed antennas

My experience with single vertical or sloping wires is exactly the same as 
AB7E's. I have, over almost twice as many Field Days as Dave, come to a similar 
conclusion, with the slight difference being my preference for an "all-band 
dipole" fed with balanced line. This obviates the balun and reduces feedline 
loss to negligible, so obviously I am maximizing efficiency at the expense of 
any other possible advantage. (I can usually hear much better than I can be 
heard... so thus far this has been a valid decision.)

To sum up what I and what I think Dave are saying, you can't beat a horizontal, 
center-fed wire up as high as you can get it. Its simplicity, the flexibility 
it gives you to QSY (with a good tuner), and its high efficiency are almost 
unbeatable.

As a side note, the center-fed horizontal wire I have used here at home is 
totally non-resonant. I don't even know how long it is. Once you give up the 
obsession with resonant antenna length, you gain a huge freedom of choice.

In the bottom of the sunspot cycle, these advantages are somewhat reduced 
because an op, especially on Field Day, might opt to forget about any band 
higher than 20 meters -- and these days even 20 is questionable. This means you 
can probably make do with coaxial cable and a balun for operation on 2 or 3 
bands but the general idea still holds.

Al  W6LX


>Yes, a center fed normal dipole with the middle (high current portion) 
>higher off the ground (say 50 feet for 40m) and a common mode choke at 
>the feedpoint would almost assuredly perform better. 
>
>73,
>Dave   AB7E
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[Elecraft] Center-fed antennas

[Al Lorona]

My experience with single vertical or sloping wires is exactly the same as 
AB7E's. I have, over almost twice as many Field Days as Dave, come to a similar 
conclusion, with the slight difference being my preference for an "all-band 
dipole" fed with balanced line. This obviates the balun and reduces feedline 
loss to negligible, so obviously I am maximizing efficiency at the expense of 
any other possible advantage. (I can usually hear much better than I can be 
heard... so thus far this has been a valid decision.)

To sum up what I and what I think Dave are saying, you can't beat a horizontal, 
center-fed wire up as high as you can get it. Its simplicity, the flexibility 
it gives you to QSY (with a good tuner), and its high efficiency are almost 
unbeatable.

As a side note, the center-fed horizontal wire I have used here at home is 
totally non-resonant. I don't even know how long it is. Once you give up the 
obsession with resonant antenna length, you gain a huge freedom of choice.

In the bottom of the sunspot cycle, these advantages are somewhat reduced 
because an op, especially on Field Day, might opt to forget about any band 
higher than 20 meters -- and these days even 20 is questionable. This means you 
can probably make do with coaxial cable and a balun for operation on 2 or 3 
bands but the general idea still holds.

Al  W6LX


>Yes, a center fed normal dipole with the middle (high current portion) 
>higher off the ground (say 50 feet for 40m) and a common mode choke at 
>the feedpoint would almost assuredly perform better. 
>
>73,
>Dave   AB7E
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Re: [Elecraft] KX2 Antenna Curiosity

[Grant Youngman]

Absolutely.  The other advantage of a horizontal dipole (or inverted V) is that 
it will be far quieter than the wire.

An end fed non-resonant wire installed as a sort-of sloper “works” but is far 
from optimum.  Especially since you’re using a minimal counterpoise system.  
One counterpoise wire (elevated) is far from being optimum.  But sure, you can 
make contacts on one.

That said, we all deal with what we have available.  As someone else said, a 
resonant vertical with an adequate radial system will work very well, too, if 
you have the space.  A vertical will be good for DX,  So will a dipole at a 1/2 
wave up.  The dipole at lower heights (or an inverted V if you can’t hang it 
high from both ends) will be far better for local to medium range contacts than 
the vertical.  It depends on your objectives.

I’ve been experimenting with this same kind of non-resonant end-fed wire 
antenna on 20M because in my living situation it is supposedly good for multi 
band operation.  It works poorly everywhere.  My 20M Buddipole vertical (with 4 
elevated radials) works better than that wire.  I recently got a 20M horizontal 
antenna bent around in my restricted space, and it is so much quieter, and 
works well, too.

I’d also suggest a thorough reading of the ARRL Antenna Book if you haven’t 
done so :-)

Grant NQ5T
KX3 (8342)/KXPA100


> On Oct 10, 2019, at 2:59 PM, Tim N9PUZ  wrote:
> 
> If you are talking about a single band dipole then any half wave dipole cut
> to the standard formula and fed with good quality coax should work well. 
> 
> 
>>  I am planning to setup a Dipole at home, but as a newbie am
>> wondering if the “ideal” Ham Dipole can be expected to improve performance.
>> 

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Re: [Elecraft] KX2 Antenna Curiosity

[Don Wilhelm]

Shu,

If you add the 58.5 foot wire to the 16.5' counterpoise, you have a 75 
foot antenna.  That is close to a half wavelength on 40 meters.  You are 
feeding it off-center which will allow it to be used on several bands 
(even though one of the antenna wires is on the ground).
As I recall, Bruce Prior (one of the KX2 Field Testers) recommended 
those lengths for 40 meters thru 10 meters.
If you feed those 2 wires directly from the KX2 tuner using a BNC to 
binding post adapter, you do not have to worry about feedline loss - 
there is no feedline!
If you do use a feedline, I suggest ladder line rather than coax because 
it will not have as much loss in the feedline due to an impedance mismatch.


The KX2/KX3/K3 ATUs have a very wide matching range and this antenna 
will work fine with any of their tuners.


73,
Don W3FPR

On 10/10/2019 12:01 PM, Joseph Shuman via Elecraft wrote:

I have had my KX2 with the ATU for about 10 months and operate on 40m QRP SSB 
from various locations.  Experimenting with different antennas I have 
experienced best results with a 58.5’ wire tossed about 25’ up a tree with a 
16.5’ counterpoise.  I ran the same length wire from my house to the workshop, 
grounded the shield side of the cable, and have seen similar results to the 
field setup.


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Re: [Elecraft] [K2] DXE Clifton Labs Z10000 Buffer Amp

[Don Wilhelm]

Clark and all,

The secret to stripping the outer insulation from ANY coax (including 
the RG178) is to first score the outer insulation a bit (not trying to 
cut all the way to the shield), then bend the cable at the score mark 
which will stretch the insulation a bit - then a light touch with the 
blade will cause the insulation to split all the way down to the shield.
Rotate the cable to the other side and do the 'bend and touch' thing 
again.  You should then be able to slide the insulation off the shield.


Separate the shield strands and split them into two groups - twist the 
strands on one half and cut the rest away.


You can do the same "score, bend and touch" operation to the center 
conductor if you do not have good wire cutters to strip it.  Do not nick 
the conductor, or it will break after it is soldered.


The other thing many hams do not realize is that the braid of the shield 
should NOT be filled with solder (making it stiff).  Solder only  the 
tip as far in as necessary to make the connection.  If soldered stiff, 
it will usually break either where it is soldered to the board or 
connector or at the point where the braid exits the coax.
I have replaced the input coax on many KPA100s and KAT2s that were 
broken because the shield was soldered stiff.


73,
Don W3FPR

On 10/10/2019 2:27 PM, Clark Macaulay wrote:

Helps a lot, Jim.

Yes...you answered my question in that you have done it.  So, I'll set
aside a morning where I swear off coffee (steadier hands) and using a new
razor blade give it a try.  Didn't know the cable in the kit is RG178 which
is about 30% smaller than RG174.  I don't see anyplace on the board to tack
on a RG174 cable as the pads for the SMT components are so small.  It's
actually a beautiful board.


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Re: [Elecraft] KX2 Antenna Curiosity

[Tim N9PUZ]

If you are talking about a single band dipole then any half wave dipole cut
to the standard formula and fed with good quality coax should work well. If
you want a "multi band" dipole then I would recommend cutting it for the
lowest frequency you plan to operate and feeding it with balanced line.
Even the best coax can have a lot of loss under high SWR conditions
(between your tuner and the antenna feedpoint) whereas even at 1 10:1 SWR
balanced line does not have much loss. The radiation pattern of a multi
band configuration can vary a lot from band to band.

The end fed wire you describe is not specific to the KX2. You typically
want the longest wire possible that is NOT a half wavelength or even
multiple on any band you want to operate. The main reason for this is when
a wire is a half wave or an even multiple the impedance at the end of the
wire can be very high and it is more difficult for most tuners to obtain a
match there. By it NOT being a half wave, the impedance is lower and a wide
range tuner like the one in your KX2 can match it more easily and present
the proper impedance to the radio.

Here is an article that suggests good lengths for a "random wire" antenna.
The lengths aren't really very random, they are specifically chosen to be
easier to match. At 58.5 feet you arrived at one of the good lengths.



Tim N9PUZ

On Thu, Oct 10, 2019 at 11:03 AM Joseph Shuman via Elecraft <
elecraft@mailman.qth.net> wrote:

> I have had my KX2 with the ATU for about 10 months and operate on 40m QRP
> SSB from various locations.  Experimenting with different antennas I have
> experienced best results with a 58.5’ wire tossed about 25’ up a tree with
> a 16.5’ counterpoise.  I ran the same length wire from my house to the
> workshop, grounded the shield side of the cable, and have seen similar
> results to the field setup.
>
> Is there some engineering/design factor of the KX2 for this type of
> antenna setup?  I am planning to setup a Dipole at home, but as a newbie am
> wondering if the “ideal” Ham Dipole can be expected to improve performance.
>
> Keeping Watch-
> shu
>
> Joe Shuman
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Re: [Elecraft] KX2 Antenna Curiosity

[David Gilbert]

Your field antenna is essentially a very low off-center fed sloped 
dipole slightly longer than a half wavelength.  I'm not surprised you 
can tune it with the KX2, but it certainly isn't any kind of ideal 
antenna configuration that Elecraft would design for.  They just made a 
very well performing tuner for the KX2 that will work with almost 
anything.  I have a KX2 ... it's amazing what it can tune.


You didn't say how long your feedline is, but with a feed that far off 
center the shield of your coax is probably doing some of the radiating 
anyway.


Yes, a center fed normal dipole with the middle (high current portion) 
higher off the ground (say 50 feet for 40m) and a common mode choke at 
the feedpoint would almost assuredly perform better. If you can't get it 
that high, a vertical (even a 30 foot wire oriented mostly straight up) 
fed against a decent radial system might be a better choice if you don't 
have a lot of surrounding buildings/trees/telephone poles.


For the record, I also have on rare occasions used low sloped wires fed 
near one end against some sort of ground or counterpoise when camping or 
for a hurried Field Day setup.  They are easy to set up and sort of 
work, but they always performed very poorly compared to even the most 
basic dipole if I could get the dipole off the ground approaching a half 
wavelength in height.  Over the years I have operated roughly 20 Field 
Day contests (almost always 5 watts CW for the extra QRP points) and one 
year I used only a low sloped wire similar to what you described.  It 
was memorable for being the worst Field Day result I have ever had, and 
that's in spite of the fact that I've placed top 3 nationwide in my 
category on more than one occasion using only wire antennas strung from 
tall trees.


73,
Dave   AB7E



On 10/10/2019 9:01 AM, Joseph Shuman via Elecraft wrote:

I have had my KX2 with the ATU for about 10 months and operate on 40m QRP SSB 
from various locations.  Experimenting with different antennas I have 
experienced best results with a 58.5’ wire tossed about 25’ up a tree with a 
16.5’ counterpoise.  I ran the same length wire from my house to the workshop, 
grounded the shield side of the cable, and have seen similar results to the 
field setup.

Is there some engineering/design factor of the KX2 for this type of antenna 
setup?  I am planning to setup a Dipole at home, but as a newbie am wondering 
if the “ideal” Ham Dipole can be expected to improve performance.

Keeping Watch-
shu

Joe Shuman


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Re: [Elecraft] [K2] DXE Clifton Labs Z10000 Buffer Amp

[Clark Macaulay]

Helps a lot, Jim.

Yes...you answered my question in that you have done it.  So, I'll set
aside a morning where I swear off coffee (steadier hands) and using a new
razor blade give it a try.  Didn't know the cable in the kit is RG178 which
is about 30% smaller than RG174.  I don't see anyplace on the board to tack
on a RG174 cable as the pads for the SMT components are so small.  It's
actually a beautiful board.

For anyone who stumbles on this thread, I'm not being critical of the DXE
kit.  Nor am I inexperienced in building stuff (several QRP radios
including the K2).  Looking at the size of the cable, I'm not at all sure I
can make this happen.  I really do want the buffer amp installed in my K2.

Nothing ventured, nothing gained so say the sages.

On Thu, Oct 10, 2019 at 1:03 PM Jim KO5V  wrote:

> Clark,
>
> Sorry, I should have read your question a bit more carefully - not enough
> coffee, I guess.
>
> I used the small RG178 cable that came with the kit.
>
> I carefully used a one-sided razor blade to cut the outer jacket and
> dielectric. I stripped the outer jacket back about 1/2", then cut the braid
> back so about 1/8" was exposed beyond the jacket. I bent a cut resistor
> lead around the braid, soldered it, and then bent that forward. It wasn't
> difficult to strip the dielectric to expose the center conductor. I had to
> be careful, but it really wasn't too hard (but I did use my magnifying
> glasses!).
>
> For what it's worth, all of the the pictures of the 3-wire pigtail in my
> instructions show RG174 (and mention that). Maybe you could use the
> "bigger" cable.
>
> I hope this helps, and actually answers your question.
>
> 73, Jim KO5V
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-- 
73,

Clark, WU4B
QRPARCI #10815
SKCC #3892
NAQCC #5055
CWOPS #1869
Collins Collectors #AC90-12432
Southeastern DX Club 
North Georgia QRP Club 


*"It is vain to do with more what can be done with less."*
*Attributed to *William of Occam (1288 AD - 1348 AD)
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Re: [Elecraft] [K2] DXE Clifton Labs Z10000 Buffer Amp

[Jim KO5V]

Clark,

Sorry, I should have read your question a bit more carefully - not enough 
coffee, I guess.

I used the small RG178 cable that came with the kit. 

I carefully used a one-sided razor blade to cut the outer jacket and 
dielectric. I stripped the outer jacket back about 1/2", then cut the braid 
back so about 1/8" was exposed beyond the jacket. I bent a cut resistor lead 
around the braid, soldered it, and then bent that forward. It wasn't difficult 
to strip the dielectric to expose the center conductor. I had to be careful, 
but it really wasn't too hard (but I did use my magnifying glasses!).

For what it's worth, all of the the pictures of the 3-wire pigtail in my 
instructions show RG174 (and mention that). Maybe you could use the "bigger" 
cable.

I hope this helps, and actually answers your question.

73, Jim KO5V
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Re: [Elecraft] K$ delivery Europe

[turnbull]

I asked Elecraft on the phone on two separate occassions and was told in the EU 
we should not expect delivery before April.    I am sure you could go to USA 
and bring one back on a plane; declare to customs and then pay duty and VAT.   
On an expensive item, I am not sure how complicated this would be.73 Doug 
EI2CNSent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.
 Original message From: Tox  Date: 
10/10/2019  15:21  (GMT+00:00) To: Udo Langenohl - DK5YA  Cc: 
Elecraft Reflector  Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K$ 
delivery Europe My understanding is that this is due to CE certification being 
a processthey can’t start until first wave units have already started to 
shipbecause of the sampling requirements. I have no clue if they would alsohave 
to do anything additional with the TUV before shipping to .deI doubt that 
there’s anything prohibiting them from handing an earlyshipping unit over in 
Watsonville ahead of CE certification should youhappen to take a vacation to do 
pickup and self import :)Good luck in any case - I am eagerly waiting for a 
unit myself.ScottAD6YTOn Thursday, October 10, 2019, Udo Langenohl - DK5YA 
 wrote:> In a video with Eric taped end of September at 
Waters&Stanton UK I've> learned that the K4 won't be delivered earlier than end 
of March or> beginning of April 2020 in Europe. Since I've ordered my K4D with 
full> deposit at the end of May directly at Elecraft US I've asked the sales> 
department at Elecraft twice if this will affect my order in any way. I was> 
still hoping for late November or early December.> Unfortunately I didn't get 
no answer at all and this is way I'm asking the> group. Any idea?>> 73 Udo, 
DK5YA>> P.S.: The video "ELECRAFT K4 IN DEPTH with WA6HHQ at Waters & Stanton 
Ltd> Portsmouth UK" here, it's worth to watch:>> 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-PHL68WIdg&fbclid=IwAR3iW5P> 
k8USnEQGmZfz2s0nVGPOgFuNhrdH-6antlFTgMCAAI7MdPW349FQ 
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Re: [Elecraft] [K2] DXE Clifton Labs Z10000 Buffer Amp

[engineercm]

Hi, Jim.  Thanks for the quick reply.  I didn't make my question as clear as
I thought I had.

I have the installation documents (from DXE).  That's where the neat
implementation is shown using the 3-pin connector.

My problem is the very small cable for input that mates with the new board.
I am not able physically to strip and split out a pig tail from such small
cable.  At least I don't think I can.  How small is it?  It looks like the
size of #22 wire.  It would be very easy to nick the braid and I'm not even
sure I could work with an extremely small inner conductor in trying to
solder it.  

If someone has successfully stripped this cable and created the pigtail, I'd
like to know how they did it.  Otherwise I'll sell the DXE kit as it is and
shelve plans for the panadapter for the K2. 

72,

Clark, WU4B



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[Elecraft] KX2 Antenna Curiosity

[Joseph Shuman via Elecraft]

I have had my KX2 with the ATU for about 10 months and operate on 40m QRP SSB 
from various locations.  Experimenting with different antennas I have 
experienced best results with a 58.5’ wire tossed about 25’ up a tree with a 
16.5’ counterpoise.  I ran the same length wire from my house to the workshop, 
grounded the shield side of the cable, and have seen similar results to the 
field setup.  

Is there some engineering/design factor of the KX2 for this type of antenna 
setup?  I am planning to setup a Dipole at home, but as a newbie am wondering 
if the “ideal” Ham Dipole can be expected to improve performance.

Keeping Watch-
shu

Joe Shuman
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Re: [Elecraft] KPA500 with K3s

[Wes]

In addition to more power out, the second benefit of the KPA500 is the band 
change buttons.


Wes  N7WS

On 10/10/2019 5:57 AM, Dave Sublette wrote:

Good morning again,

Many thanks for all of the comments.  I now have a better idea of how this
cable works with the K3s.  FWIW, I did read the manual and my problem was
figuring out how to use all of this great capability.  Your information
helps a lot.

I will order the cable today.

73,

Dave, K4TO


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Re: [Elecraft] [K2] DXE Clifton Labs Z10000 Buffer Amp

[Jim KO5V]

Clark,

I have the original Clifton Labs instructions for building and installing the 
amp into a K2.

Your amp already built, so all you need are the installation instructions, 
right? I can scan them, and send them to you as a .pdf. 

Let me know.

73, Jim KO5V
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Re: [Elecraft] [K2] DXE Clifton Labs Z10000 Buffer Amp

[engineercm]

When I ordered the unit for the K2, I was expecting all the parts needed to
install the amp.  I was mistaken.  The only documentation provided are
legacy documents showing how to connect to the pins underneath the NB board
using a 3 pin socket/pins, which is very clean, but the DXE kit did not not
supply them (no big deal as I have these in my junk box).  

The bigger (and for me, I fear) insurmountable task is for the input cable
that was provided.  It is a jumper cable with two mini-SMA connectors (I
think) on it, but since the K2 doesn't have any such connector, one end must
be cut off and a pig-tail created.  I do not know what size coax cable is
used, but it is FAR SMALLER than RG-174 which is about the smallest my aging
hands can work with.  The board is very neatly constructed with SMT
components but no place I can see to tap off using RG-174 in place of the
supplied cable.  

SoI would appreciate suggestions from anyone who has installed the DXE
version in their K2 and how they connected the K2 to the input to the board.  

Clark, WU4B



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Re: [Elecraft] K$ delivery Europe

[Tox]

My understanding is that this is due to CE certification being a process
they can’t start until first wave units have already started to ship
because of the sampling requirements. I have no clue if they would also
have to do anything additional with the TUV before shipping to .de

I doubt that there’s anything prohibiting them from handing an early
shipping unit over in Watsonville ahead of CE certification should you
happen to take a vacation to do pickup and self import :)

Good luck in any case - I am eagerly waiting for a unit myself.

Scott
AD6YT

On Thursday, October 10, 2019, Udo Langenohl - DK5YA  wrote:

> In a video with Eric taped end of September at Waters&Stanton UK I've
> learned that the K4 won't be delivered earlier than end of March or
> beginning of April 2020 in Europe. Since I've ordered my K4D with full
> deposit at the end of May directly at Elecraft US I've asked the sales
> department at Elecraft twice if this will affect my order in any way. I was
> still hoping for late November or early December.
> Unfortunately I didn't get no answer at all and this is way I'm asking the
> group. Any idea?
>
> 73 Udo, DK5YA
>
> P.S.: The video "ELECRAFT K4 IN DEPTH with WA6HHQ at Waters & Stanton Ltd
> Portsmouth UK" here, it's worth to watch:
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-PHL68WIdg&fbclid=IwAR3iW5P
> k8USnEQGmZfz2s0nVGPOgFuNhrdH-6antlFTgMCAAI7MdPW349FQ
>
>
>
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-- 
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Re: [Elecraft] KPA500 with K3s

[Dave Sublette]

Good morning again,

Many thanks for all of the comments.  I now have a better idea of how this
cable works with the K3s.  FWIW, I did read the manual and my problem was
figuring out how to use all of this great capability.  Your information
helps a lot.

I will order the cable today.

73,

Dave, K4TO
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Re: [Elecraft] KPA500 with K3s

[Larry (K8UT)]

Expanding on the "two different levels based on the amps OPER/STBY 
switch" described by Dick, the cable enables those two levels per band.


For example, you can adjust the Operate level on 30 meters for a full 
200 legal watts; 300 watts on 10, 15 and 30 into your TA33 Junior 
tri-bander; and the amp's full output into your dipoles.


-larry (K8UT)

-- Original Message --
From: "Dick Dievendorff" 
To: k...@arrl.net; "'Elecraft Discussion List'" 


Sent: 2019-10-10 07:30:58
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] KPA500 with K3s



See pages 15, 16, and 27 of the KPA500 Owner's manual for a description of
what the 15-pin ACC cable can do for you.

It amounts to band information both ways so the amp can switch bands from
the K3's band information before you provide RF, the KPA500 front panel band
buttons can bandswitch the K3, and K3 drive power can be set to two
different levels based on the amp's OPER/STBY switch. My K3 provides 30
watts when the amp is in OPER, and 100 watts when the amp is in STBY.

73 de Dick, K6KR



-Original Message-
From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net  On
Behalf Of Dave Sublette
Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2019 04:15
To: Elecraft Discussion List 
Subject: [Elecraft] KPA500 with K3s

Good morning,

I am building the KPA500.  I have the K3s.  Can anyone explain, in simple
terms, what advantage there is in using the KPAK3AUX cable instead of just
using the Key Line cable?

Thanks,

Dave, K4TO
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Re: [Elecraft] KPA500 with K3s

[Mike Maloney]

 What is LENGTH of this cable?  
Mike AC5P
On Thursday, October 10, 2019, 06:31:59 AM CDT, Dick Dievendorff 
 wrote:  
 
 
See pages 15, 16, and 27 of the KPA500 Owner's manual for a description of
what the 15-pin ACC cable can do for you.

It amounts to band information both ways so the amp can switch bands from
the K3's band information before you provide RF, the KPA500 front panel band
buttons can bandswitch the K3, and K3 drive power can be set to two
different levels based on the amp's OPER/STBY switch. My K3 provides 30
watts when the amp is in OPER, and 100 watts when the amp is in STBY.

73 de Dick, K6KR



-Original Message-
From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net  On
Behalf Of Dave Sublette
Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2019 04:15
To: Elecraft Discussion List 
Subject: [Elecraft] KPA500 with K3s

Good morning,

I am building the KPA500.  I have the K3s.  Can anyone explain, in simple
terms, what advantage there is in using the KPAK3AUX cable instead of just
using the Key Line cable?

Thanks,

Dave, K4TO
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Re: [Elecraft] KPA500 with K3s

[Dick Dievendorff]

See pages 15, 16, and 27 of the KPA500 Owner's manual for a description of
what the 15-pin ACC cable can do for you.

It amounts to band information both ways so the amp can switch bands from
the K3's band information before you provide RF, the KPA500 front panel band
buttons can bandswitch the K3, and K3 drive power can be set to two
different levels based on the amp's OPER/STBY switch. My K3 provides 30
watts when the amp is in OPER, and 100 watts when the amp is in STBY.

73 de Dick, K6KR



-Original Message-
From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net  On
Behalf Of Dave Sublette
Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2019 04:15
To: Elecraft Discussion List 
Subject: [Elecraft] KPA500 with K3s

Good morning,

I am building the KPA500.  I have the K3s.  Can anyone explain, in simple
terms, what advantage there is in using the KPAK3AUX cable instead of just
using the Key Line cable?

Thanks,

Dave, K4TO
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[Elecraft] KPA500 with K3s

[Dave Sublette]

Good morning,

I am building the KPA500.  I have the K3s.  Can anyone explain, in simple
terms, what advantage there is in using the KPAK3AUX cable instead of just
using the Key Line cable?

Thanks,

Dave, K4TO
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Re: [Elecraft] K$ delivery Europe

[Nr4c]

I believe the early Nov/Dec delivery dates are optimistic. At best, a photo of 
Madeline carrying a boxed K4 out the door on New Years Eve would be a welcome 
sight.  
I have a K4D fully deposited as well, and I’m going to be thrilled/surprised if 
they start shipping in Dec, happy for January and relegated to March/April.  
Especially for Kits and overseas shipments. 

Sent from my iPhone
...nr4c. bill


> On Oct 10, 2019, at 5:51 AM, Udo Langenohl - DK5YA  wrote:
> 
> In a video with Eric taped end of September at Waters&Stanton UK I've 
> learned that the K4 won't be delivered earlier than end of March or beginning 
> of April 2020 in Europe. Since I've ordered my K4D with full deposit at the 
> end of May directly at Elecraft US I've asked the sales department at 
> Elecraft twice if this will affect my order in any way. I was still hoping 
> for late November or early December.
> Unfortunately I didn't get no answer at all and this is way I'm asking the 
> group. Any idea?
> 
> 73 Udo, DK5YA
> 
> P.S.: The video "ELECRAFT K4 IN DEPTH with WA6HHQ at Waters & Stanton Ltd 
> Portsmouth UK" here, it's worth to watch:
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-PHL68WIdg&fbclid=IwAR3iW5Pk8USnEQGmZfz2s0nVGPOgFuNhrdH-6antlFTgMCAAI7MdPW349FQ
> 
> 
> 
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[Elecraft] K$ delivery Europe

[Udo Langenohl - DK5YA]

In a video with Eric taped end of September at Waters&Stanton UK I've 
learned that the K4 won't be delivered earlier than end of March or 
beginning of April 2020 in Europe. Since I've ordered my K4D with full 
deposit at the end of May directly at Elecraft US I've asked the sales 
department at Elecraft twice if this will affect my order in any way. I 
was still hoping for late November or early December.
Unfortunately I didn't get no answer at all and this is way I'm asking 
the group. Any idea?


73 Udo, DK5YA

P.S.: The video "ELECRAFT K4 IN DEPTH with WA6HHQ at Waters & Stanton 
Ltd Portsmouth UK" here, it's worth to watch:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-PHL68WIdg&fbclid=IwAR3iW5Pk8USnEQGmZfz2s0nVGPOgFuNhrdH-6antlFTgMCAAI7MdPW349FQ



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