Re: [Elecraft] Giving Up

[Barry Simpson]

Well said Dave

I am a rig tragic like you and many others.

I have always got to buy and try all the newest rigs and then move them on
if I am not that smitten.

My current rigs/keepers are a K3 (2008 vintage), TS890, Omni 6+, Orion 2
(three of those !), SunSDR2DX.

Been and gone rigs include the IC7851, IC7610, TS990 (only because it got
too heavy for me so I got the TS890), MB1, Flex 6600M and a number of
others.

I have not yet succumbed to the FTDX101 or the FTDX10 but may give one or
the other a try. However, one of my main requirements is good quiet QSK so
I am not sure that the Yaesu is suitable and the bandscope strikes me as
horrible.

I too have had a no deposit K4D on order for about two years. I intend to
just let the order sit there and see if anything eventually happens and if
it does I expect I will buy it !!

Barry  VK2BJ

On Wed, 9 Jun 2021 at 13:28, Dave Erickson  wrote:

> On 6/8/2021 12:25 PM, KENT TRIMBLE wrote:
> > Not so, Doug.
> >
> > My K3, including accessories and filters, was $4,500 in 2007. That's
> > $5,722 in today's dollars.
> >
> > A K4 with all its advanced technology at $4,600 (your quote) is a steal
> > compared to a K3.
> >
> > The word "expensive" can be applied to the K4 (or any product) only when
> > answering the question, "compared to what?"  Otherwise it has no
> > meaning.  Nothing is expensive or inexpensive on its own.  The word has
> > relevance only when comparing the price of two or more products.
> >
> > 73,
> >
> > Kent  K9ZTV
> >
> >
> > On 6/7/2021 9:33 PM, Doug Person, KØDXV, wrote:
> >> ... With a tuner the [K4] price is $4600 making it one of the most
> >> expensive transceivers on the market ... When the K3 came out it was
> >> very competitively priced. I'm not sure I would describe the K4 with
> >> the same words. It is unquestionably an expensive radio.
> > .
>
> All,
>
> I followed along this thread and I think it's not useful to compare the
> K4 to the K3. The K3 to the K2 makes sense, even a KX3 to a K3 as they
> are more similar.
>
> I think the only radio on the market right now that can be compared to
> the K4 is the 7610 from ICOM. And frankly, it's not so good for the K4.
>
> A little over a year ago, I was in the market for a high end transceiver
> and basically decided between waiting for a K4 or buy a 7610. I bought
> the Icom. While I am sure the K4 is a better radio in some ways, the
> question is: is it twice as good? (Add tuner, second ADC, etc.)
>
> Looking at the specs, I am shocked the K4 is shipping with only one ADC.
> At the price point and with the 7610 on the market for $2900 all day
> long it's a serious flaw for me.
>
> The K4 also has no pre-selector that I can tell and that is useful too
> me at times, especially on the low bands.
>
> IMO the competition for the K4 is the 7610 as they are architecturally
> very similar.
>
> Maybe an Apache ANON 7000 DLE would be in there as well but the Icom
> beats that too IMO. (Since it has buttons, and a tuner, and pin-diode
> QSK etc)
>
> That said, I have since bought a K3 to go with the 7610 and will likely
> get a K4 and an ANON in the future so I am as hopeless as the rest.
>
> 73's all.
>
> --
> Dave Erickson
> AB0R
> 73
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Re: [Elecraft] A Clarification: IC-7300 vs FTDX10

[Barry Simpson]

Hi Phil

Buying the IC-7300 was definitely a descent 😊.

Barry  VK2BJ

On Wed, 9 Jun 2021 at 10:12, Phil Hystad via Elecraft <
elecraft@mailman.qth.net> wrote:

> I answered that question two years ago and it cost me about $200.
>
> I bought a 7300 because I thought it would be a descent backup to my
> K-line (K3).  Two months after I bought it, I sold it for a net $200 loss.
>
> I did the test that Don outlines in his message quoted below.  I searched
> for weak CW stations on my K3 and then switched the antenna over to the
> IC-7300 to see if I could pick them up.  Not a a precise experiment but I
> would
> say about half of the weak signals I could hear enough to copy on my K3
> were
> not copyable on the IC-7300 and a few of them were not even making an
> appearance.  This test was all done with my 20-meter dipole near the
> resonant
> point of the antenna so no tuners were involved for either radio.
>
> But, that was not the kill-shot for the 7300.  The relay clicks on
> break-in keying
> drove me crazy.
>
> 73, phil, K7PEH
>
> > On Jun 8, 2021, at 4:58 PM, Bert  wrote:
> >
> > Here is the $ 64.000 question:
> >
> > Do you think you can work more stations with a K3 vs a 7300
> > everything else being equal, antennas, location, etc.?
> >
> > Bert VE3NR
> >
> >
> >
> > On 2021-06-08 19:52, Ray wrote:
> >>
> >> Like the Old Saying……
> >> If you cant Hear them You cant Work them……….
> >> That is WHY that is a $1000.00 Radio.
> >> Good Luck Hunting the DX……
> >>
> >> Ray WA6VAB K3
> >>
> >>
> >> From: Don Wilhelm
> >> Sent: Tuesday, June 8, 2021 4:35 PM
> >> To: Richard; Elecraft
> >> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] A Clarification: IC-7300 vs FTDX10
> >>
> >> Richard and all,
> >>
> >> I have a friend who bought a K3s and then afterward bought an IC-7300.
> >> He is a weak signal CW type of guy and reports that there are many weak
> >> signals that he could copy on the K3, but were non-existent on the
> IC-7300.
> >>
> >> His reason for buying the IC-7300 had to do with possible "portable"
> >> operation.  Of course, the K3 is his rig of choice.
> >> Yes, he does have the P3 to compliment it.
> >>
> >> He had operated my K3 with P3 for 2 years at Field Day and found it
> >> excellent.  He commented that the K3 with the P3 allowed him to work
> >> stations "like shooting a fish in a barrel".
> >>
> >> I know this does not compare the IC-7300 to the FTDX10, but I thought it
> >> to be a point of interest to some.
> >>
> >> I wonder how many will be comparing the K4 to the K3 with on the air
> >> experiences.
> >>
> >> 73,
> >> Don W3FPR
> >>
> >>
> >> On 6/8/2021 7:00 PM, Richard wrote:
> >>> Assuming you're a casual rawchewer and DXer, if you had an IC-7300 and
> an FTDX10 side by side, where would they be pretty much equal, and where
> would each outshine the other?
> >>>
> >>> Think in terms of using them with a KPA500 and a KAT500.
> >>>
> >>>
> >> __
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[Elecraft] KPA500/KAT500 With a Yaesu FTDX10

[Richard]

If you are using a Yaesu FTDX10, especially with a KPA500 and KAT500, please 
get in touch.

Richard Kunc
W4KBX
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Re: [Elecraft] Giving Up

[Dave Erickson]

On 6/8/2021 12:25 PM, KENT TRIMBLE wrote:

Not so, Doug.

My K3, including accessories and filters, was $4,500 in 2007. That's 
$5,722 in today's dollars.


A K4 with all its advanced technology at $4,600 (your quote) is a steal 
compared to a K3.


The word "expensive" can be applied to the K4 (or any product) only when 
answering the question, "compared to what?"  Otherwise it has no 
meaning.  Nothing is expensive or inexpensive on its own.  The word has 
relevance only when comparing the price of two or more products.


73,

Kent  K9ZTV


On 6/7/2021 9:33 PM, Doug Person, KØDXV, wrote:
... With a tuner the [K4] price is $4600 making it one of the most 
expensive transceivers on the market ... When the K3 came out it was 
very competitively priced. I'm not sure I would describe the K4 with 
the same words. It is unquestionably an expensive radio.

.


All,

I followed along this thread and I think it's not useful to compare the 
K4 to the K3. The K3 to the K2 makes sense, even a KX3 to a K3 as they 
are more similar.


I think the only radio on the market right now that can be compared to 
the K4 is the 7610 from ICOM. And frankly, it's not so good for the K4.


A little over a year ago, I was in the market for a high end transceiver 
and basically decided between waiting for a K4 or buy a 7610. I bought 
the Icom. While I am sure the K4 is a better radio in some ways, the 
question is: is it twice as good? (Add tuner, second ADC, etc.)


Looking at the specs, I am shocked the K4 is shipping with only one ADC. 
At the price point and with the 7610 on the market for $2900 all day 
long it's a serious flaw for me.


The K4 also has no pre-selector that I can tell and that is useful too 
me at times, especially on the low bands.


IMO the competition for the K4 is the 7610 as they are architecturally 
very similar.


Maybe an Apache ANON 7000 DLE would be in there as well but the Icom 
beats that too IMO. (Since it has buttons, and a tuner, and pin-diode 
QSK etc)


That said, I have since bought a K3 to go with the 7610 and will likely 
get a K4 and an ANON in the future so I am as hopeless as the rest.


73's all.

--
Dave Erickson
AB0R
73
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[Elecraft] Yaesu to KPA500

[Richard]

The pinouts for making your own cable to link a non-K3 radio to your KPA500 amp 
are shown on pages 26 and 27 of the KPA500 manual. The Icom version works fine; 
I made one.

However, the Yaesu pinouts are for the 8-pin sockets on older Yaesus; the newer 
ones have 13-pin sockets.

What are the correct pinouts for the FTDX10's 13-pin socket?

Cheers.
Richard Kunc ~ W4KBX
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[Elecraft] Receiver performance

[Bob McGraw]

I took a different approach.   Using the Sherwood Receiver test data, I 
made an XL spreadsheet based on the 8 columns of data.  Then each line 
of data listed 10 or so radios (I could have gone further but 10 was 
clearly enough) that had the best performance in each of the data 
groups.   Having done this, I was then able to evaluate the brand and 
model which offered the better overall performance.   I suggest one do 
this. You will be surprised at the better performance receivers.  And 
there were some surprises!


73
Bob, K4TAX

Message: 5
Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2021 17:12:43 -0700
From: Phil Hystad
To: Bert
Cc:elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] A Clarification: IC-7300 vs FTDX10
Message-ID:<1f4034ad-ef46-4d53-9ffb-c9a4da6a6...@mac.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;   charset=utf-8

I answered that question two years ago and it cost me about $200.

I bought a 7300 because I thought it would be a descent backup to my
K-line (K3).  Two months after I bought it, I sold it for a net $200 loss.

I did the test that Don outlines in his message quoted below.  I searched
for weak CW stations on my K3 and then switched the antenna over to the
IC-7300 to see if I could pick them up.  Not a a precise experiment but I would
say about half of the weak signals I could hear enough to copy on my K3 were
not copyable on the IC-7300 and a few of them were not even making an
appearance.  This test was all done with my 20-meter dipole near the resonant
point of the antenna so no tuners were involved for either radio.

But, that was not the kill-shot for the 7300.  The relay clicks on break-in 
keying
drove me crazy.

73, phil, K7PEH


On Jun 8, 2021, at 4:58 PM, Bert  wrote:

Here is the $ 64.000 question:

Do you think you can work more stations with a K3 vs a 7300
everything else being equal, antennas, location, etc.?

Bert VE3NR



On 2021-06-08 19:52, Ray wrote:

Like the Old Saying??
If you cant Hear them You cant Work them???.
That is WHY that is a $1000.00 Radio.
Good Luck Hunting the DX??

Ray WA6VAB K3


From: Don Wilhelm
Sent: Tuesday, June 8, 2021 4:35 PM
To: Richard; Elecraft
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] A Clarification: IC-7300 vs FTDX10

Richard and all,

I have a friend who bought a K3s and then afterward bought an IC-7300.
He is a weak signal CW type of guy and reports that there are many weak
signals that he could copy on the K3, but were non-existent on the IC-7300.

His reason for buying the IC-7300 had to do with possible "portable"
operation.  Of course, the K3 is his rig of choice.
Yes, he does have the P3 to compliment it.

He had operated my K3 with P3 for 2 years at Field Day and found it
excellent.  He commented that the K3 with the P3 allowed him to work
stations "like shooting a fish in a barrel".

I know this does not compare the IC-7300 to the FTDX10, but I thought it
to be a point of interest to some.

I wonder how many will be comparing the K4 to the K3 with on the air
experiences.

73,
Don W3FPR


On 6/8/2021 7:00 PM, Richard wrote:

Assuming you're a casual rawchewer and DXer, if you had an IC-7300 and an 
FTDX10 side by side, where would they be pretty much equal, and where would 
each outshine the other?

Think in terms of using them with a KPA500 and a KAT500.



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Re: [Elecraft] Gurus

[Julia Tuttle]

I'm gonna second "above all, have fun"!

If it brings you joy to have the highest performing rig you can, cool, and
I hope it serves you well.

But if a different aspect of a radio, or even one you can't name, brings
you joy, that's also cool, and I'm happy it makes you happy!

My KX3 isn't at the top of the Sherwood list, it doesn't have a panadapter
(...yet), and connecting it up for digital modes is a bit of a rat's nest...

...but I'll be darned if it isn't just fun as shit to use. The UI is well
thought out, the VFO knob is a work of art, (surprisingly) the compact size
makes it more approachable/friendly for it, and the community here around
it (as heated as it can get) is tighter-knit.

None of those show up in a spec sheet or lab testing Get what makes *you*
happy, and share your experience so the next ham can do the same.

Cheers,

Julie

On Tue, Jun 8, 2021, 21:57 Al Lorona  wrote:

> When this subject appeared last week I had composed a reply but then slept
> on it and canceled it the next morning, as I probably do 80% of the time.
>
> In this my second attempt, let me say that I've always been amazed at the
> power wielded by Rob Sherwood. Thousands of hams hang on his latest tests.
> If he deems a new radio exceptional in some way, that can mean many
> millions of dollars for a manufacturer.
>
> And yet, if there were no such thing as gurus on the web and at places
> like Dayton expounding about how Brand A is better than Brand B, how would
> you answer the questions, "Do I like this transceiver?," and, "Is it any
> good?"
>
> You'd probably get on the air and use it, and decide that way.
>
> But we constantly have gurus telling us that Brand A is the 'best' which
> horrifies us if up until now we liked Brand B better. Against our personal
> experience we flip-flop and say, "Gee, I used to like Brand B, but Brand A
> must be better because the gurus say so."
>
> Yet, there will always be guys who'll be tortured owning a transceiver
> that has the 2nd highest dynamic range, or the 3rd best distortion. Never
> mind if they can't actually hear the differences.
>
> It's how a rig *sounds and feels* during actual operating that's most
> important. Not the numbers. For instance, Wes made a comment about his
> tuning knob, and although some of you might have laughed at that... it's
> darned important! That's the kind of thing I'm talking about.
>
> Here's my opinion on ranking receivers by 2 kHz 3rd order dynamic range:
> almost any modern receiver has enough dynamic range to make this ranking
> more and more meaningless as time goes on. Sherwood himself has said that
> 90 dB or above is plenty enough. To understand why, see this post from 2016
> by one of the old guys on this reflector:
> http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/K3-The-Way-We-Rank-Receivers-long-td7623639.html
>
>
> Lastly, if you've been enjoying your rig for years and then hear someone
> else complain about a flaw you weren't even aware of, don't panic. There
> are a million reasons why his concerns might not involve you in the least.
>
> Above all, have fun.
>
> Al W6LX/4
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Re: [Elecraft] W2

[David Herring]

Just to wrap up this question for the benefit of anyone else who is interested 
or may search for this later…

Jack’s response prompted me to go back and take a second look at the schematics 
for the couplers. Somehow I missed this the first time through, but it would 
appear that the coupler will provide a short to ground for a DC bias voltage by 
way of the secondary winding in T1.

So I’m going to take “no” for an answer here. ;-)  I don’t think the HF 
couplers will pass a DC bias voltage on through like I had hoped.

73,
David - N5DCH



>> 
>> 
>>> On Jun 8, 2021, at 6:25 PM, Jack Brindle  wrote:
>>> 
>>> I believe the answer is yes. The schematics for the W2 and couplers are in 
>>> the manual.
>>> 
>>> 73,
>>> Jack, W6FB
>>> 
>>> 
 On Jun 8, 2021, at 5:00 PM, David Herring  wrote:
 
 Can anyone say if the directional couplers for the W2 will pass a DC bias 
 voltage along the coax? 
 
 73,
 David - N5DCH
 
 
 
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>>> 
>> 
> 

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[Elecraft] Gurus

[Al Lorona]

When this subject appeared last week I had composed a reply but then slept on 
it and canceled it the next morning, as I probably do 80% of the time.

In this my second attempt, let me say that I've always been amazed at the power 
wielded by Rob Sherwood. Thousands of hams hang on his latest tests. If he 
deems a new radio exceptional in some way, that can mean many millions of 
dollars for a manufacturer.

And yet, if there were no such thing as gurus on the web and at places like 
Dayton expounding about how Brand A is better than Brand B, how would you 
answer the questions, "Do I like this transceiver?," and, "Is it any good?"

You'd probably get on the air and use it, and decide that way.

But we constantly have gurus telling us that Brand A is the 'best' which 
horrifies us if up until now we liked Brand B better. Against our personal 
experience we flip-flop and say, "Gee, I used to like Brand B, but Brand A must 
be better because the gurus say so."

Yet, there will always be guys who'll be tortured owning a transceiver that has 
the 2nd highest dynamic range, or the 3rd best distortion. Never mind if they 
can't actually hear the differences.

It's how a rig *sounds and feels* during actual operating that's most 
important. Not the numbers. For instance, Wes made a comment about his tuning 
knob, and although some of you might have laughed at that... it's darned 
important! That's the kind of thing I'm talking about.

Here's my opinion on ranking receivers by 2 kHz 3rd order dynamic range: almost 
any modern receiver has enough dynamic range to make this ranking more and more 
meaningless as time goes on. Sherwood himself has said that 90 dB or above is 
plenty enough. To understand why, see this post from 2016 by one of the old 
guys on this reflector: 
http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/K3-The-Way-We-Rank-Receivers-long-td7623639.html
 

Lastly, if you've been enjoying your rig for years and then hear someone else 
complain about a flaw you weren't even aware of, don't panic. There are a 
million reasons why his concerns might not involve you in the least.

Above all, have fun.

Al W6LX/4
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Re: [Elecraft] A Clarification: IC-7300 vs FTDX10

[John Nicholson]

Yes

John K7FD

> On Jun 8, 2021, at 4:59 PM, Bert  wrote:
> 
> Here is the $ 64.000 question:
> 
> Do you think you can work more stations with a K3 vs a 7300
> everything else being equal, antennas, location, etc.?
> 
> Bert VE3NR
> 
> 
> 
>> On 2021-06-08 19:52, Ray wrote:
>> 
>> Like the Old Saying……
>> If you cant Hear them You cant Work them……….
>> That is WHY that is a $1000.00 Radio.
>> Good Luck Hunting the DX……
>> 
>> Ray WA6VAB K3
>> 
>> 
>> From: Don Wilhelm
>> Sent: Tuesday, June 8, 2021 4:35 PM
>> To: Richard; Elecraft
>> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] A Clarification: IC-7300 vs FTDX10
>> 
>> Richard and all,
>> 
>> I have a friend who bought a K3s and then afterward bought an IC-7300.
>> He is a weak signal CW type of guy and reports that there are many weak
>> signals that he could copy on the K3, but were non-existent on the IC-7300.
>> 
>> His reason for buying the IC-7300 had to do with possible "portable"
>> operation.  Of course, the K3 is his rig of choice.
>> Yes, he does have the P3 to compliment it.
>> 
>> He had operated my K3 with P3 for 2 years at Field Day and found it
>> excellent.  He commented that the K3 with the P3 allowed him to work
>> stations "like shooting a fish in a barrel".
>> 
>> I know this does not compare the IC-7300 to the FTDX10, but I thought it
>> to be a point of interest to some.
>> 
>> I wonder how many will be comparing the K4 to the K3 with on the air
>> experiences.
>> 
>> 73,
>> Don W3FPR
>> 
>> 
>>> On 6/8/2021 7:00 PM, Richard wrote:
>>> Assuming you're a casual rawchewer and DXer, if you had an IC-7300 and an 
>>> FTDX10 side by side, where would they be pretty much equal, and where would 
>>> each outshine the other?
>>> 
>>> Think in terms of using them with a KPA500 and a KAT500.
>>> 
>>> 
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Re: [Elecraft] Receiving with Skimmer SDR on K-3 transmit antennas

[Bob Wilson, N6TV]

I documented the procedure about 13 years ago in this presentation, linked
at the very bottom of my QRZ.COM page , which
includes the recommended Mini-Circuits 50 ohm splitter (ZFSC-2-6
).

   - Adding a Software Defined Radio (SDR) to an SO2R station
   

High power cannot exit the RF ANT OUT jack, so it's safe, but there's no
way to prevent a local skimmer from spotting you.  Skimmer won't spot your
own call, but it will usually spot busted variants.  I recommend
disconnecting your skimmer from the RBN when operating at the same site.

Local RF will usually leak into the SDR even with no antenna connected; the
SDR is very sensitive.  Probably no way to mute it completely during TX.

73,
Bob, N6TV


On Mon, Jun 7, 2021 at 6:50 PM N4ZR  wrote:

> I would like to be able to connect my SDR (an RP-16) to my transmitting
> antennas, and have it automatically muted when my K3/KPA-1500 goes to
> transmit.  The idea is to have the best possible antennas available for
> Skimming while active in contests.
>
> It seems to me that I should be able to connect a splitter between the
> RX Out and RX In ports on the K3, and use that to feed the SDR by
> pressing the RX Ant button  (at a cost of ~3.5 dB loss, of course).
> Question is, what happens when I go to transmit - is the RX Out line
> muted so that my SDR won't try to spot me? Ideally, I'd think it would
> be, but I've groped around in the K3 manual and Fred Cady's book, and
> haven't found a concrete answer - can anyone help?
>
> --
> 73, Pete N4ZR
> Check out the new Reverse Beacon Network
> web server at .
> For spots, please use your favorite
> "retail" DX cluster.
>
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Re: [Elecraft] A Clarification: IC-7300 vs FTDX10

[Morgan Bailey]

You are describing a pure ADC front in radio...7300,7610 and now K4. The K4
might be better. The K3 is NOT an ADC front end and neither is the FTDX10
or the FTDX101 or the Kenwood 890. I have not had a 6600M at a FD site. But
if I did, the antennas separating them would be the max allowable distance
apart.

73, Morgan NJ8M


On Tue, Jun 8, 2021 at 7:41 PM Bert  wrote:

> FD is only once a year!! ;-))
> Bert VE3NR
>
>
>
> On 2021-06-08 20:32, Jim Brown wrote:
> > On 6/8/2021 4:58 PM, Bert wrote:
> >> Do you think you can work more stations with a K3 vs a 7300
> >> everything else being equal, antennas, location, etc.?
> >
> > I have seen reports that the 7300 is a dog at FD
> >
> > 73, Jim K9YC
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Re: [Elecraft] Other Radio lists thoughts.

[Julia Tuttle]

I dunno, this seems like it's worth trying. I think there are roughly these
steps:

1. Identify the radios we care about. Icom, Kenwood, Yaesu, Elecraft, and
FlexRadio's current HF offerings, plus the cult favorite Xiegu G90, seem
like a good place to start.

2. Identify the controls we care about. I could throw together a quick list
based on what I use and what radios commonly feature as front panel
controls, and solicit additions from the list.

3. Identify the operator classes we care about. I think rag-chewing /
contesting / weak-signal are good classes, plus CW / SSB / digital; I'd be
open to hearing other additions.

4. Trawl through the manuals for the radios and note how each relevant
control is accessed. This is tedious, but the kind of thing I would find
oddly enjoyable.

5. Estimate or observe how frequently and/or urgently each operator class
uses each control. We could throw together a quick estimate, and could
later refine it by surveying or observing folks who inhabit those classes.

6. Do the math on what we get from steps 4 and 5 to generate some scores.

Anyone interested in contributing to step 5?

Cheers,

Julie

On Tue, Jun 8, 2021 at 8:34 PM Bill Rowlett  wrote:

> Sounds good, when are you going to start the list?
>
> BillKC4IM
>
> > On Jun 8, 2021, at 8:14 PM, Thomas Warren  wrote:
> >
> > Speaking of the Sherwood RX list, someone mentioned producing additional
> lists…here is some food for discussion….. possibly not on this list.
> >
> > List 1) Radio Receiver (RX) …..already exists.
> >
> > List 2) Radio Transmitter (TX)…..already suggested.
> >
> > List 3) Radio Ergonomics (RE) - a list of what is desirable or which
> knobs/ buttons used the most or are most
> >   important. Listed by different classes such as Contest radio, CW,
> SSB, Weak signal….etc.
> >
> > List 4) Radio Usability (RU) - how many mouse-clicks or button-pushes is
> takes to enable a wanted function, Macros OFF……etc.
> >
> > Probably, combine #3,4.
> >
> > Just throwing this out for rumination. :)
> >
> >
> > Tom, W4TMW
> >
> >
> >
> > __
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Re: [Elecraft] Other Radio lists thoughts.

[Louandzip via Elecraft]

 In the biz I was in, and the FDA, call this usability and human factors.  
On Tuesday, June 8, 2021, 6:50:29 PM MDT, w2xj  wrote:  
 
 
Sounds unwieldily to me.  



> On June 8, 2021 8:14 PM Thomas Warren  wrote:
> 
>  
> Speaking of the Sherwood RX list, someone mentioned producing additional 
> lists…here is some food for discussion….. possibly not on this list.
> 
> List 1) Radio Receiver (RX) …..already exists.
> 
> List 2) Radio Transmitter (TX)…..already suggested.
> 
> List 3) Radio Ergonomics (RE) - a list of what is desirable or which knobs/ 
> buttons used the most or are most 
>     important. Listed by different classes such as Contest radio, CW, SSB, 
> Weak signal….etc.
> 
> List 4) Radio Usability (RU) - how many mouse-clicks or button-pushes is 
> takes to enable a wanted function, Macros OFF……etc. 
> 
> Probably, combine #3,4. 
> 
> Just throwing this out for rumination. :) 
> 
> 
> Tom, W4TMW
> 
> 
>  
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Re: [Elecraft] Other Radio lists thoughts.

[w2xj]

Sounds unwieldily to me.  



> On June 8, 2021 8:14 PM Thomas Warren  wrote:
> 
>  
> Speaking of the Sherwood RX list, someone mentioned producing additional 
> lists…here is some food for discussion….. possibly not on this list.
> 
> List 1) Radio Receiver (RX) …..already exists.
> 
> List 2) Radio Transmitter (TX)…..already suggested.
> 
> List 3) Radio Ergonomics (RE) - a list of what is desirable or which knobs/ 
> buttons used the most or are most 
>   important. Listed by different classes such as Contest radio, CW, SSB, 
> Weak signal….etc.
> 
> List 4) Radio Usability (RU) - how many mouse-clicks or button-pushes is 
> takes to enable a wanted function, Macros OFF……etc. 
> 
> Probably, combine #3,4. 
> 
> Just throwing this out for rumination. :) 
> 
> 
> Tom, W4TMW
> 
> 
>  
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Re: [Elecraft] A Clarification: IC-7300 vs FTDX10

[Bert]

FD is only once a year!! ;-))
Bert VE3NR



On 2021-06-08 20:32, Jim Brown wrote:

On 6/8/2021 4:58 PM, Bert wrote:

Do you think you can work more stations with a K3 vs a 7300
everything else being equal, antennas, location, etc.?


I have seen reports that the 7300 is a dog at FD

73, Jim K9YC
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Re: [Elecraft] A Clarification: IC-7300 vs FTDX10

[Jim Brown]

On 6/8/2021 4:58 PM, Bert wrote:

Do you think you can work more stations with a K3 vs a 7300
everything else being equal, antennas, location, etc.?


I have seen reports that the 7300 is a dog at FD

73, Jim K9YC
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Re: [Elecraft] Other Radio lists thoughts.

[Julia Tuttle]

I'd *love* to see a structured look at radio UI. My girlfriend just got an
IC-7300, and I couldn't help but notice that my KX3, a "portable" radio,
had more physical controls, more of which were explicitly labeled. On the
-7300, I have to guess which of four buttons a given setting is behind. I'm
learning the pattern, but it feels a lot more fiddly than just scanning
below the display for the right button and knob and pressing and turning it.

On Tue, Jun 8, 2021 at 8:15 PM Thomas Warren  wrote:

> Speaking of the Sherwood RX list, someone mentioned producing additional
> lists…here is some food for discussion….. possibly not on this list.
>
> List 1) Radio Receiver (RX) …..already exists.
>
> List 2) Radio Transmitter (TX)…..already suggested.
>
> List 3) Radio Ergonomics (RE) - a list of what is desirable or which
> knobs/ buttons used the most or are most
> important. Listed by different classes such as Contest radio, CW,
> SSB, Weak signal….etc.
>
> List 4) Radio Usability (RU) - how many mouse-clicks or button-pushes is
> takes to enable a wanted function, Macros OFF……etc.
>
> Probably, combine #3,4.
>
> Just throwing this out for rumination. :)
>
>
> Tom, W4TMW
>
>
>
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Re: [Elecraft] Other Radio lists thoughts.

[Bill Rowlett]

Sounds good, when are you going to start the list?

BillKC4IM

> On Jun 8, 2021, at 8:14 PM, Thomas Warren  wrote:
> 
> Speaking of the Sherwood RX list, someone mentioned producing additional 
> lists…here is some food for discussion….. possibly not on this list.
> 
> List 1) Radio Receiver (RX) …..already exists.
> 
> List 2) Radio Transmitter (TX)…..already suggested.
> 
> List 3) Radio Ergonomics (RE) - a list of what is desirable or which knobs/ 
> buttons used the most or are most 
>   important. Listed by different classes such as Contest radio, CW, SSB, 
> Weak signal….etc.
> 
> List 4) Radio Usability (RU) - how many mouse-clicks or button-pushes is 
> takes to enable a wanted function, Macros OFF……etc. 
> 
> Probably, combine #3,4. 
> 
> Just throwing this out for rumination. :) 
> 
> 
> Tom, W4TMW
> 
> 
> 
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[Elecraft] K3 and DEMI/Q5 Transverters.

[Dana]

Just to mirror what Ed mentioned…
I have my complete 160 - 5G station running off of my K3 bought in 2011 and 
upgraded.
I have the internal 144 transverter which had to go back 3 times to get spurs 
sorted out.
One think I note, is signal compression as I have pagers just below 144 Mhz and 
when they fire up 
They desense the 2 m transverter….
I’ve correlated this with an SDR. The problem is lack of filtering in the 
internal transverter as the front end sees well beyond 144 - 148.
The solution was to add a filter with a steep rolloff below 144 Mhz… 

I would hope that the guys at Elecraft when designing the new K4 transverter 
system will take a cue from DEMI and Q5 and ensure adequate
Bandpass filtering in the front ends… I would think TOKO or similar are your 
friends on this … 

Just my 2 cents.  I use the 2 m to drive all my microwave stuff as well and 
with GPS locking its nice to be able to know where you are …

Having said that, Q5 have a really slick multi band transverter that would 
integrate really well on the K3 or K4… but at a price point.
Anyway I do hope Elecraft come up with something that is crunch proof and rock 
solid for 144 222 432 MHz.

73 Dana VE3DS
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Re: [Elecraft] A Clarification: IC-7300 vs FTDX10

[Morgan Bailey]

I went to a radio store to see what all the hubbub was about the FTDX10. I
came prepared to test the radio. After having downloaded the manual and
reading it through 3 or 4 times getting the menus, setting, knobs,
filtering, general settings well in my head, I went to the store and turned
one on for about 2 solid hours. I was so upset with my K3S/P3 costing over
6K$ being shown up by a $1700 radio. Granted it does not have all the bells
and whistles that the Elecraft had but for a great receiver, it blows the
K3 away with band noise, and electrical noise mitigation. I found the
receiver to be much quieter over all and with no harsh roar constantly as
the K3S has. The Pan Adaptor was way easier to use and adjustment to 5khz
wide was a S&P dream to operate with an adjustable notch and contour
peaking or nulling functions continuously variable for best reception.

I went home and got my money back from Elecraft, $9879, they had it for
over a year, and once it was in my account I ordered sight unseen and
untested both FTDX101MP and D models. The MP came first. I had the D sent
to the factory to install the extra 300hz cw filter. Putting the K3S/P3 on
an A/B switch with the MP, the difference was astounding. I immediately
listed the K3S/P3 and sold it within an hour. It went out the next morning
to UPS and I have had no regrets. Both my son, NS0R, and I operated the
Yaesu's in multiple contests. This was the first time in my life that we
could hear stations that we could not work. Having the Yaesus was an
absolute game changer for me. The VC tune is the money. This last WPX cw we
increased our score by a million because we could hear stations that the K3
was deaf to. The Band noise and intermittent electrical noise in the city
was easily managed by the FTDX101MP. The K3S could not even come close to
this performance. Simply put the FTDX10 and the FTDX101MP/D just have
better receivers, due to the noise mitigation, lower internal noise, easier
to listen to for long periods, and features like the adjustable notch and
contour controls coupled with the VC tune and remarkable DSP, width and IF
shift controls...it is just not a little bit better, it is atleast a
magnitude better. Running SO2R on a city lot with cramped antenna space is
not a problem. They are clean and no phase noise/composite noise is
detected on transmit in the other radio on receive. I have them side by
side. I have given 2 or 3 presentations on Zoom to explain how I use the
rig and the great noise mitigation that It can do. When you push a button
or turn a knob on these radios, something happens. They are not there for
display.

FTDX101MP and D---The best radios I have ever owned or operated.

73, Morgan NJ8M

On Tue, Jun 8, 2021 at 6:55 PM Ray  wrote:

>
>
> Like the Old Saying……
> If you cant Hear them You cant Work them……….
> That is WHY that is a $1000.00 Radio.
> Good Luck Hunting the DX……
>
> Ray WA6VAB K3
>
>
> From: Don Wilhelm
> Sent: Tuesday, June 8, 2021 4:35 PM
> To: Richard; Elecraft
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] A Clarification: IC-7300 vs FTDX10
>
> Richard and all,
>
> I have a friend who bought a K3s and then afterward bought an IC-7300.
> He is a weak signal CW type of guy and reports that there are many weak
> signals that he could copy on the K3, but were non-existent on the IC-7300.
>
> His reason for buying the IC-7300 had to do with possible "portable"
> operation.  Of course, the K3 is his rig of choice.
> Yes, he does have the P3 to compliment it.
>
> He had operated my K3 with P3 for 2 years at Field Day and found it
> excellent.  He commented that the K3 with the P3 allowed him to work
> stations "like shooting a fish in a barrel".
>
> I know this does not compare the IC-7300 to the FTDX10, but I thought it
> to be a point of interest to some.
>
> I wonder how many will be comparing the K4 to the K3 with on the air
> experiences.
>
> 73,
> Don W3FPR
>
>
> On 6/8/2021 7:00 PM, Richard wrote:
> > Assuming you're a casual rawchewer and DXer, if you had an IC-7300 and
> an FTDX10 side by side, where would they be pretty much equal, and where
> would each outshine the other?
> >
> > Think in terms of using them with a KPA500 and a KAT500.
> >
> >
>
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Re: [Elecraft] W2

[Jack Brindle via Elecraft]

I believe the answer is yes. The schematics for the W2 and couplers are in the 
manual.

73,
Jack, W6FB


> On Jun 8, 2021, at 5:00 PM, David Herring  wrote:
> 
> Can anyone say if the directional couplers for the W2 will pass a DC bias 
> voltage along the coax? 
> 
> 73,
> David - N5DCH
> 
> 
> 
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[Elecraft] Other Radio lists thoughts.

[Thomas Warren]

Speaking of the Sherwood RX list, someone mentioned producing additional 
lists…here is some food for discussion….. possibly not on this list.

List 1) Radio Receiver (RX) …..already exists.

List 2) Radio Transmitter (TX)…..already suggested.

List 3) Radio Ergonomics (RE) - a list of what is desirable or which knobs/ 
buttons used the most or are most 
important. Listed by different classes such as Contest radio, CW, SSB, 
Weak signal….etc.

List 4) Radio Usability (RU) - how many mouse-clicks or button-pushes is takes 
to enable a wanted function, Macros OFF……etc. 

Probably, combine #3,4. 

Just throwing this out for rumination. :) 


Tom, W4TMW


 
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Re: [Elecraft] A Clarification: IC-7300 vs FTDX10

[Phil Hystad via Elecraft]

I answered that question two years ago and it cost me about $200.

I bought a 7300 because I thought it would be a descent backup to my
K-line (K3).  Two months after I bought it, I sold it for a net $200 loss.

I did the test that Don outlines in his message quoted below.  I searched
for weak CW stations on my K3 and then switched the antenna over to the
IC-7300 to see if I could pick them up.  Not a a precise experiment but I would
say about half of the weak signals I could hear enough to copy on my K3 were
not copyable on the IC-7300 and a few of them were not even making an 
appearance.  This test was all done with my 20-meter dipole near the resonant
point of the antenna so no tuners were involved for either radio.

But, that was not the kill-shot for the 7300.  The relay clicks on break-in 
keying
drove me crazy.

73, phil, K7PEH

> On Jun 8, 2021, at 4:58 PM, Bert  wrote:
> 
> Here is the $ 64.000 question:
> 
> Do you think you can work more stations with a K3 vs a 7300
> everything else being equal, antennas, location, etc.?
> 
> Bert VE3NR
> 
> 
> 
> On 2021-06-08 19:52, Ray wrote:
>> 
>> Like the Old Saying……
>> If you cant Hear them You cant Work them……….
>> That is WHY that is a $1000.00 Radio.
>> Good Luck Hunting the DX……
>> 
>> Ray WA6VAB K3
>> 
>> 
>> From: Don Wilhelm
>> Sent: Tuesday, June 8, 2021 4:35 PM
>> To: Richard; Elecraft
>> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] A Clarification: IC-7300 vs FTDX10
>> 
>> Richard and all,
>> 
>> I have a friend who bought a K3s and then afterward bought an IC-7300.
>> He is a weak signal CW type of guy and reports that there are many weak
>> signals that he could copy on the K3, but were non-existent on the IC-7300.
>> 
>> His reason for buying the IC-7300 had to do with possible "portable"
>> operation.  Of course, the K3 is his rig of choice.
>> Yes, he does have the P3 to compliment it.
>> 
>> He had operated my K3 with P3 for 2 years at Field Day and found it
>> excellent.  He commented that the K3 with the P3 allowed him to work
>> stations "like shooting a fish in a barrel".
>> 
>> I know this does not compare the IC-7300 to the FTDX10, but I thought it
>> to be a point of interest to some.
>> 
>> I wonder how many will be comparing the K4 to the K3 with on the air
>> experiences.
>> 
>> 73,
>> Don W3FPR
>> 
>> 
>> On 6/8/2021 7:00 PM, Richard wrote:
>>> Assuming you're a casual rawchewer and DXer, if you had an IC-7300 and an 
>>> FTDX10 side by side, where would they be pretty much equal, and where would 
>>> each outshine the other?
>>> 
>>> Think in terms of using them with a KPA500 and a KAT500.
>>> 
>>> 
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[Elecraft] W2

[David Herring]

Can anyone say if the directional couplers for the W2 will pass a DC bias 
voltage along the coax? 

73,
David - N5DCH



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Re: [Elecraft] A Clarification: IC-7300 vs FTDX10

[Bert]

Here is the $ 64.000 question:

Do you think you can work more stations with a K3 vs a 7300
everything else being equal, antennas, location, etc.?

Bert VE3NR



On 2021-06-08 19:52, Ray wrote:


Like the Old Saying……
If you cant Hear them You cant Work them……….
That is WHY that is a $1000.00 Radio.
Good Luck Hunting the DX……

Ray WA6VAB K3


From: Don Wilhelm
Sent: Tuesday, June 8, 2021 4:35 PM
To: Richard; Elecraft
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] A Clarification: IC-7300 vs FTDX10

Richard and all,

I have a friend who bought a K3s and then afterward bought an IC-7300.
He is a weak signal CW type of guy and reports that there are many weak
signals that he could copy on the K3, but were non-existent on the IC-7300.

His reason for buying the IC-7300 had to do with possible "portable"
operation.  Of course, the K3 is his rig of choice.
Yes, he does have the P3 to compliment it.

He had operated my K3 with P3 for 2 years at Field Day and found it
excellent.  He commented that the K3 with the P3 allowed him to work
stations "like shooting a fish in a barrel".

I know this does not compare the IC-7300 to the FTDX10, but I thought it
to be a point of interest to some.

I wonder how many will be comparing the K4 to the K3 with on the air
experiences.

73,
Don W3FPR


On 6/8/2021 7:00 PM, Richard wrote:

Assuming you're a casual rawchewer and DXer, if you had an IC-7300 and an 
FTDX10 side by side, where would they be pretty much equal, and where would 
each outshine the other?

Think in terms of using them with a KPA500 and a KAT500.



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Re: [Elecraft] A Clarification: IC-7300 vs FTDX10

[Ray]

Like the Old Saying……
If you cant Hear them You cant Work them……….
That is WHY that is a $1000.00 Radio.
Good Luck Hunting the DX……

Ray WA6VAB K3


From: Don Wilhelm
Sent: Tuesday, June 8, 2021 4:35 PM
To: Richard; Elecraft
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] A Clarification: IC-7300 vs FTDX10

Richard and all,

I have a friend who bought a K3s and then afterward bought an IC-7300.  
He is a weak signal CW type of guy and reports that there are many weak 
signals that he could copy on the K3, but were non-existent on the IC-7300.

His reason for buying the IC-7300 had to do with possible "portable" 
operation.  Of course, the K3 is his rig of choice.
Yes, he does have the P3 to compliment it.

He had operated my K3 with P3 for 2 years at Field Day and found it 
excellent.  He commented that the K3 with the P3 allowed him to work 
stations "like shooting a fish in a barrel".

I know this does not compare the IC-7300 to the FTDX10, but I thought it 
to be a point of interest to some.

I wonder how many will be comparing the K4 to the K3 with on the air 
experiences.

73,
Don W3FPR


On 6/8/2021 7:00 PM, Richard wrote:
> Assuming you're a casual rawchewer and DXer, if you had an IC-7300 and an 
> FTDX10 side by side, where would they be pretty much equal, and where would 
> each outshine the other?
>
> Think in terms of using them with a KPA500 and a KAT500.
>
>

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Re: [Elecraft] A Clarification: IC-7300 vs FTDX10

[Don Wilhelm]

Richard and all,

I have a friend who bought a K3s and then afterward bought an IC-7300.  
He is a weak signal CW type of guy and reports that there are many weak 
signals that he could copy on the K3, but were non-existent on the IC-7300.


His reason for buying the IC-7300 had to do with possible "portable" 
operation.  Of course, the K3 is his rig of choice.

Yes, he does have the P3 to compliment it.

He had operated my K3 with P3 for 2 years at Field Day and found it 
excellent.  He commented that the K3 with the P3 allowed him to work 
stations "like shooting a fish in a barrel".


I know this does not compare the IC-7300 to the FTDX10, but I thought it 
to be a point of interest to some.


I wonder how many will be comparing the K4 to the K3 with on the air 
experiences.


73,
Don W3FPR


On 6/8/2021 7:00 PM, Richard wrote:

Assuming you're a casual rawchewer and DXer, if you had an IC-7300 and an 
FTDX10 side by side, where would they be pretty much equal, and where would 
each outshine the other?

Think in terms of using them with a KPA500 and a KAT500.




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[Elecraft] A Clarification: IC-7300 vs FTDX10

[Richard]

Assuming you're a casual rawchewer and DXer, if you had an IC-7300 and an 
FTDX10 side by side, where would they be pretty much equal, and where would 
each outshine the other?

Think in terms of using them with a KPA500 and a KAT500.

Richard Kunc ~ W4KBX
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[Elecraft] Apples and Pomegranates

[Richard]

For the casual rawchewer and DXer, how does the IC-7300 compare to the FTDX10? 

Think in terms of using them with a KPA500 and a KAT500.

Richard Kunc ~ W4KBX
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Re: [Elecraft] Giving Up

[Jim Brown]

On 6/8/2021 12:49 PM, George Thornton wrote:

I think it is correct to say the basic k4 does not exceed the K3 raw 
performance (based on the Sherwood engineering standard)


Paraphrasing the late Dick Heyser, trying to define a product on the 
basis of a single parameter is like trying to write Shakespeare with one 
word in your vocabulary.


73, Jim K9YC
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Re: [Elecraft] Giving Up

[John_N1JM]

I  have kind of given up, too. I did a no deposit order just about this time
2 years ago. I recently bought an IC-7610. I guess I'll see what I will do
when they call me to tell me my order is ready.

John N1JM



Wes Stewart-2 wrote
> Except the OP gave up on waiting.
> 
> I did too.  I haven't cancelled my no-deposit K4 order, but I turn 80
> later this 
> year and I wanted a new radio before then.  So I bought a TS-890S.  It too
> is a 
> single-receiver box.  But, I'm two away from top of the Honor Roll and
> have 
> 9-band DXCC all from withing a 10 mile circle and I've never owned a
> transceiver 
> with two receivers.  A contester might want one but as a DXer I've never
> seen 
> the need.
> 
> I've only had the Kenwood for about 7 months, but it's already been more 
> reliable than either my K3 or K3S. Prior to the Elecrafts I had a
> TS-870SAT that 
> was flawless for over 12 years. The '890 isn't perfect, the K3 and K3S are 
> better on RTTY, I don't like not having mic and headphone jacks on the
> rear 
> panel, among other nits.  But the feel of the tuning knob, the ergonomics,
> the 
> better frequency stability, the audio and the far better TX IMD are
> pluses.  It 
> has a built in tuner, albeit with a lesser range. Although I don't use or
> have 
> an interest in remote operation, the Kenwood has built-in capability.
> 
> Although the prices have actually gone up since i bought mine, they are
> still 
> less than a base K4.
> 
> Wes  N7WS
> 
> 
> On 6/8/2021 12:09 PM, George Thornton wrote:
>> I don't know the FTDX10 but it looks like it has a single receiver and
>> can't be updated.
>>
>> I note these Yaesu rigs seem to have crystal filters and use a
>> combination of superhet and direct sampling architecture whereas the K4D
>> is direct sampling.   I would hold off on reaching conclusions on
>> relative performance until the K4HD comes out and is tested.  Only then
>> would you get comparable radios.
>>
> 
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Re: [Elecraft] Giving Up

[Wes]

Except the OP gave up on waiting.

I did too.  I haven't cancelled my no-deposit K4 order, but I turn 80 later this 
year and I wanted a new radio before then.  So I bought a TS-890S.  It too is a 
single-receiver box.  But, I'm two away from top of the Honor Roll and have 
9-band DXCC all from withing a 10 mile circle and I've never owned a transceiver 
with two receivers.  A contester might want one but as a DXer I've never seen 
the need.


I've only had the Kenwood for about 7 months, but it's already been more 
reliable than either my K3 or K3S. Prior to the Elecrafts I had a TS-870SAT that 
was flawless for over 12 years. The '890 isn't perfect, the K3 and K3S are 
better on RTTY, I don't like not having mic and headphone jacks on the rear 
panel, among other nits.  But the feel of the tuning knob, the ergonomics, the 
better frequency stability, the audio and the far better TX IMD are pluses.  It 
has a built in tuner, albeit with a lesser range. Although I don't use or have 
an interest in remote operation, the Kenwood has built-in capability.


Although the prices have actually gone up since i bought mine, they are still 
less than a base K4.


Wes  N7WS


On 6/8/2021 12:09 PM, George Thornton wrote:

I don't know the FTDX10 but it looks like it has a single receiver and can't be 
updated.

I note these Yaesu rigs seem to have crystal filters and use a combination of 
superhet and direct sampling architecture whereas the K4D is direct sampling.   
I would hold off on reaching conclusions on relative performance until the K4HD 
comes out and is tested.  Only then would you get comparable radios.



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Re: [Elecraft] Giving Up

[Dr. William J. Schmidt]

Performance simply is not the issue here.

Elecraft has made a marketing decision to market one radio and it is priced
in the middle of the Ham-consumer pack with other radios with similar
performance.  They have opted to skip the entry-level market (like Icom with
the 7300 that you can get for basically $1000, and a range of radios at
different price points).  Many people can't pony up the $4,000+ for the new
(now) entry level Elecraft (no matter what the performance) and will go
elsewhere for their radios.  This is a different model than the entry level
K3 that initially started barely over $1,000.

That's what's up here... As Rob says in all of his talks... "Any of the
radios in the top 10+ are about the same in performance... you serve
yourself best buying one with the options that suit you".   Unless, of
course, you are a performance number chaser...


Dr. William J. Schmidt - K9HZ J68HZ 8P6HK ZF2HZ PJ4/K9HZ VP5/K9HZ PJ2/K9HZ 

email:  b...@wjschmidt.com


 


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Re: [Elecraft] Giving Up

[Carl Yaffey]

My FTdx010d has no problems.

Carl Yaffey  K8NU
614 268 6353, Columbus OH
http://www.carl-yaffey.com
http://www.bluesswing.com
http://www.timbrewolvesband.com
http://www.folkramblers.carl-yaffey.com
Http:www.clintonvillegrass.com


> On Jun 8, 2021, at 3:51 PM, Wes  wrote:
> 
> Except all of that has been fixed in later offerings.
> 
> 
> 
> On 6/8/2021 10:47 AM, Jim Brown wrote:
>> On 6/8/2021 3:00 AM, Igor Sokolov wrote:
>>> FTDX10 which sounds like a good value for money.
>> 
>> Except that Yaesu radios have a long history of generating nasty clicks, and 
>> have more recently established the reputation of severe splatter on SSB.
>> 
>> 73, Jim K9YC
>> __
>> 
> 
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Re: [Elecraft] Giving Up

[Wes]

Except all of that has been fixed in later offerings.



On 6/8/2021 10:47 AM, Jim Brown wrote:

On 6/8/2021 3:00 AM, Igor Sokolov wrote:

FTDX10 which sounds like a good value for money.


Except that Yaesu radios have a long history of generating nasty clicks, and 
have more recently established the reputation of severe splatter on SSB.


73, Jim K9YC
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Re: [Elecraft] Giving Up

[George Thornton]

I think it is correct to say the basic k4 does not exceed the K3 raw 
performance (based on the Sherwood engineering standard) but I think the 
results are pretty close for practical purposes.  I would not say the K4 is 
materially worse.   I think it would be up to individual K3 owners to decide 
whether to sell and pay the difference for an upgrade.  

I looked at pricing for the Yaesu stuff and the comparable dual receiver model 
comes out at $4700.  Their 200 watt version is advertised at $5200.  

We don't really know how much the superhet option will cost but what if it was 
a grand more, that would put the top of the line K4HD at $5000.   At that level 
I would look more at a full feature comparison before I reached a conclusion 
about which is a better deal.

I don't have full information on pricing and options so I don't know if my 
numbers are off.

We are dealing with a US company versus foreign made and that may also be a 
factor.

I also suspect Elecraft could in the future come out with a scaled down model 
that has only one receiver and that could become a lower cost option.





-Original Message-
From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net  On 
Behalf Of David Gilbert
Sent: Tuesday, June 8, 2021 12:08 PM
To: Elecraft 
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Giving Up


Except that the K4 (not K4HD) does not equal the K3 for raw performance.  The 
K4HD with equivalent performance and accessories is going to cost a fortune, 
with the extra cost going mostly into creature features.

And you're forgetting comparison to rigs from other manufacturers. If you 
create a sliding scale of cost versus performance for various rigs, Elecraft 
doesn't come out on top on any rig anymore.

Dave   AB7E



On 6/8/2021 10:25 AM, KENT TRIMBLE wrote:
> Not so, Doug.
>
> My K3, including accessories and filters, was $4,500 in 2007. That's
> $5,722 in today's dollars.
>
> A K4 with all its advanced technology at $4,600 (your quote) is a 
> steal compared to a K3.
>
> The word "expensive" can be applied to the K4 (or any product) only 
> when answering the question, "compared to what?"  Otherwise it has no 
> meaning.  Nothing is expensive or inexpensive on its own.  The word 
> has relevance only when comparing the price of two or more products.
>
> 73,
>
> Kent  K9ZTV
>
>
> On 6/7/2021 9:33 PM, Doug Person, KØDXV, wrote:
>> ... With a tuner the [K4] price is $4600 making it one of the most 
>> expensive transceivers on the market ... When the K3 came out it was 
>> very competitively priced. I'm not sure I would describe the K4 with 
>> the same words. It is unquestionably an expensive radio.
> .
>
>

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Re: [Elecraft] K3s and DEMI transverter

[Ed Cole]

Previous to 2010, I was using a FT-847 for 50,144,432 MHz and a DEMI on 
1296 with 144 IF.


That was the year I bought my K3-10* (since updated with new synth).  I 
bought DEMI 144-28, 222-28, 432-28* and 1296-28 transverters as better 
design filtered LO better making 28-MHz a good choice for use with my 
K3.  Note: * indicates use of PLL locked to 10-MHz reference resulting 
in less than 2-Hz max drift on 28-MHz.  Choice of LO frequency is 
determined by ability to reject LO feed thru (primarily). Picking a too 
low IF can lead to troubles.


I also have DEMI 3400-145* and 10,368-144* transverters.  Use of 144 or 
432 as IF at 1296 and above is common.  They use the N5AC A32 PLL to 
lock LO.  The A32 is now NLA so look at DEMI digiLO as replacement.  
Currently using an OCXO as 10-MHz ref but will switch to GPSDO this summer.


Eventually Elecraft will offer 144 and 432 transverter modules for the 
K4.  Will be curious what IF is chosen.


73, Ed - KL7UW


On 2 Jun 2021, at 15:46, Mooneer Salem  wrote:

Personally, I like choices, so I've considered getting a 10MHz IF if I ever
got deep into transverters.

I would be concerned that the 10MHz station reference would appear as an in 
band signal.

The other IF commonly used is 14MHz (by Kuhne for example), but we use 28MHz on 
all our VHF and up contest transverters. If you want to see how we do with this 
arrangement  look up G5LK/P and G3M in the UK listing for the major portable 
contests.

Stewart/G3YSX

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Re: [Elecraft] Giving Up

[David Gilbert]

Except that the K4 (not K4HD) does not equal the K3 for raw 
performance.  The K4HD with equivalent performance and accessories is 
going to cost a fortune, with the extra cost going mostly into creature 
features.


And you're forgetting comparison to rigs from other manufacturers. If 
you create a sliding scale of cost versus performance for various rigs, 
Elecraft doesn't come out on top on any rig anymore.


Dave   AB7E



On 6/8/2021 10:25 AM, KENT TRIMBLE wrote:

Not so, Doug.

My K3, including accessories and filters, was $4,500 in 2007. That's 
$5,722 in today's dollars.


A K4 with all its advanced technology at $4,600 (your quote) is a 
steal compared to a K3.


The word "expensive" can be applied to the K4 (or any product) only 
when answering the question, "compared to what?"  Otherwise it has no 
meaning.  Nothing is expensive or inexpensive on its own.  The word 
has relevance only when comparing the price of two or more products.


73,

Kent  K9ZTV


On 6/7/2021 9:33 PM, Doug Person, KØDXV, wrote:
... With a tuner the [K4] price is $4600 making it one of the most 
expensive transceivers on the market ... When the K3 came out it was 
very competitively priced. I'm not sure I would describe the K4 with 
the same words. It is unquestionably an expensive radio.

.




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Re: [Elecraft] Giving Up

[George Thornton]

I don't know the FTDX10 but it looks like it has a single receiver and can't be 
updated.

I note these Yaesu rigs seem to have crystal filters and use a combination of 
superhet and direct sampling architecture whereas the K4D is direct sampling.   
I would hold off on reaching conclusions on relative performance until the K4HD 
comes out and is tested.  Only then would you get comparable radios.



-Original Message-
From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net  On 
Behalf Of Jim Brown
Sent: Tuesday, June 8, 2021 10:47 AM
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Giving Up

On 6/8/2021 3:00 AM, Igor Sokolov wrote:
> FTDX10 which sounds like a good value for money.

Except that Yaesu radios have a long history of generating nasty clicks, and 
have more recently established the reputation of severe splatter on SSB.

73, Jim K9YC
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Re: [Elecraft] Giving Up

[hb9cvq]

I run a FTDX101 MP-no SSB splatter ( 20W/65W), no CW clicks (6ms)- May 2021
FW update implemented. 
Latest issue of QST (June) ARRL Lab: Test Report - Review on FTDX10 does not
confirm clicks or SSB splatter.


Tnx, Cu, vy 73 de Andy
HB9CVQ, DK2VQ, AK4IG

https://www.qrz.com/db/HB9CVQ



-Original Message-
From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net  On
Behalf Of Jim Brown
Sent: Dienstag, 8. Juni 2021 19:47
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Giving Up

On 6/8/2021 3:00 AM, Igor Sokolov wrote:
> FTDX10 which sounds like a good value for money.

Except that Yaesu radios have a long history of generating nasty clicks, and
have more recently established the reputation of severe splatter on SSB.

73, Jim K9YC
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Re: [Elecraft] Giving Up

[Hal Massey]

This is not like a departure in a plane from O’Hare airport. You do not have to 
announce your intentions before leaving here. Thank You. 

> On Jun 8, 2021, at 11:47, Jim Brown  wrote:
> 
> On 6/8/2021 3:00 AM, Igor Sokolov wrote:
>> FTDX10 which sounds like a good value for money.
> 
> Except that Yaesu radios have a long history of generating nasty clicks, and 
> have more recently established the reputation of severe splatter on SSB.
> 
> 73, Jim K9YC
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Re: [Elecraft] Giving Up

[Jim Brown]

On 6/8/2021 7:30 AM, Rick Tavan wrote:

Rob Sherwood's data is excellent.


When studying Rob's work, remember that his table only addresses RECEIVE 
performance. He has only very recently begun to look at transmit quality.


73, Jim K9YC
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Re: [Elecraft] Giving Up

[Jim Brown]

On 6/8/2021 3:00 AM, Igor Sokolov wrote:

FTDX10 which sounds like a good value for money.


Except that Yaesu radios have a long history of generating nasty clicks, 
and have more recently established the reputation of severe splatter on 
SSB.


73, Jim K9YC
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Re: [Elecraft] Giving Up

[KENT TRIMBLE]

Not so, Doug.

My K3, including accessories and filters, was $4,500 in 2007. That's 
$5,722 in today's dollars.


A K4 with all its advanced technology at $4,600 (your quote) is a steal 
compared to a K3.


The word "expensive" can be applied to the K4 (or any product) only when 
answering the question, "compared to what?"  Otherwise it has no 
meaning.  Nothing is expensive or inexpensive on its own.  The word has 
relevance only when comparing the price of two or more products.


73,

Kent  K9ZTV


On 6/7/2021 9:33 PM, Doug Person, KØDXV, wrote:
... With a tuner the [K4] price is $4600 making it one of the most 
expensive transceivers on the market ... When the K3 came out it was 
very competitively priced. I'm not sure I would describe the K4 with 
the same words. It is unquestionably an expensive radio.

.


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[Elecraft] Musings about appreciating a particular difference in rx perfomance

[David Windisch]

Hi, all concerned:

The performance that cinched the K3 tight for me years ago was using it on
contest-grade antennas 1 to 3 hops from some of those remarkably loud
W2-W3-W8 CW DX contest stations on 40-80-160M.

Using the 200Hz narrow filter in the K3, I could hear weaker CW sigs, with
no keying artifacts, between, eg, W3LPL and K3LR adjacent each other, even
though they pinned the meter thru the wider filters.

The "comparison" rig, a Yazoo '857, was unusable on contest antennas on
contest weekends.

Tks to all those who have described mods to clean up the offshore dirtysig
clickmachines instead of using the artifacts to hold a run frequency.
W8JI.com, for example, has or had mods that clean up the clicks produced by
the venerable FT1000 rigs.

Brgds,
Dave, N3HE
mostly "lurker" status
Cincinnati OH







-
Brgds,
Dave, N3HE
Cincinnati OH
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Re: [Elecraft] Giving Up

[Joseph Shuman via Elecraft]

I would not exactly call this giving up.  Would I like to have a K4?  Sure, but 
I wouldn’t know what to do with it . . . KX2 + KXPA100 + a wire in a tree is 
more than enough for me.  Just my two cents.

Keeping Watch -
shu

Joe Shuman, NZ8P 
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[Elecraft] For Sale: K1 & K2 packages from late estate soon available

[Doug Hensley]

I will have both a K1 and a K2 with EC2-KPA100/KAT100 shortly.

If you are interested in either (not both please), let me know and
I'll give you what information I presently have with pictures to follow
as soon as I have them.

These are pristine and will priced accordingly.  No PAYPAL on these,
MO or simple personal check only.  Will accept down payments.
Items shipped when checks clear.

Thank you,

Doug W5JV




Visit https://www.qrz.com/db/W5JV for some great vacuum tube finds.


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Re: [Elecraft] KV5J's line of Remote Digital Displays for Elecraft's W2, KXPA100, KPA500, KAT500 and KPA1500

[Keith Ennis via Elecraft]

Free shipping to continue thru June. 

Keith, KV5J
http://www.kv5j.com








On Wednesday, May 12, 2021, 09:37:35 AM CDT, Keith Ennis  
wrote: 





Free shipping for the month of May.  Use SHIPFREE code when ordering. 

Keith, KV5J
http://www.kv5j.com/store








On Thursday, April 29, 2021, 08:02:20 AM CDT, Keith Ennis  
wrote: 





KV5J's line of Digital Displays for Elecraft's W2, KXPA100, KPA500, KAT500 and 
KPA1500
-
Digital Display Unit for Elecraft's W2 Watt Meter:
-
With digital read out the Display Unit takes the guess work out of the LED 
light bar.
-
-
Digital Display Unit for Elecraft's KXPA100 amplifier:
-
Don't wait for a fault light to come on.  Keep an eye on 5 crucial readings at 
all times.
1. Power amplifier's heat sink temperature
2. Power amplifier's high voltage supply voltage
3. Power amplifier's current
4. Power amplifier's output power
5. SWR that the KXPA100 sees at its output
-
-
Digital Display Unit for Elecraft's KPA500 amplifier:
-
Instead of seeing only 1 crucial reading, monitor all 7 at the same time.
1. Power amplifier's heat sink temperature
2. Power amplifier's high voltage supply voltage
3. Power amplifier's current
4. Power amplifier's output power
5. SWR that the KPA500 sees at its output
6. Displays Operate/Standby mode
7. Displays Band amp is tuned to
-
Digital Display Unit for KAT500:
-
This unit displays the front panel settings.
If the tuner is in bypass or not.
Displays the capacitance and inductance used.
What type of circuit is used. LC or CL.
SWR of both before and after a tune cycle is completed.
-
-
Digital Display Unit for Elecraft's KPA1500 amplifier:


Displays the same display that is on the KPA1500 Amplifier 
Change the display on the KPA1500 and the display changes to show this same 
screen
-
-
All of the Digital Display Units:
-
Display Unit can be located at a more visible location
Up to the RS232 limit from unit
-
Easy to read 2 line display
No USB or serial cable to computer
No com port in Windows to manage
No computer needed
Plug and Play
Simply connect the SUPPLIED dc power cable (with inline on/off switch) from the 
DDU to power supply and SUPPLIED  SERIAL data jumper cable to the device
Retains all functions of the front panel
All displayed info obtained directly from the device
-
Only 4" x 4" x 2"
-
-
For more information and ordering go to:   http://www.kv5j.com/store
-
Reviews:
https://www.eham.net/reviews/view-product?id=14701
-
https://www.eham.net/reviews/view-product?id=14820
-
-
-
-
Keith, KV5J
http://www.kv5j.com
-

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Re: [Elecraft] Giving Up

[weave...@usermail.com]

Hopefully Elecraft will put a priority on pre-distortion which will vault the 
K4/KPA1500 combo to the top on the transmitter performance list. Only the Anan 
rigs from Apache Labs employs pre-distortion  now.

73,
Bill WE5P

Comfortably Numb

> On Jun 8, 2021, at 10:31, Rick Tavan  wrote:
> 
> Rob Sherwood's data is excellent. The problem is hams thinking the order of
> listing is based on an
> overall figure of merit. It is *not*. Rob had to choose *one column* on
> which to sort his list. When he
> first published it, he chose third-order dynamic range (narrow spaced),
> probably because many
> receivers *of that day* had poor performance on that important metric. For
> consistency, he has chosen
> to retain that sort order even though many (most?) modern receivers have
> improved to the point
> where that particular parameter is almost irrelevant when choosing among
> top radios. George is
> correct that most of us can't tell the difference among radios due to minor
> differences in
> DR - they are ALL excellent and Rob is careful to point that out when he
> speaks at
> hamfests. In fact, most modern transceivers excel in so many receiver
> performance metrics that
> Rob and others are now rightly crusading for improvements in transmitter
> performance which
> has not advanced as much as receiver performance across the industry. K4
> (and K3 before it)
> and a few others have excellent transmitter IMD and clean keying that make
> them best choices,
> especially in crowded or multi-transmitter environments and among hams who
> care about not
> generating unnecessarily broad signals. That plus ergonomics and operating
> features should be
> the new basis of comparison but they don't fit on a list of *receiver
> performance* metrics.
> I'd like to see a new table of select transmitter performance measurements.
> Ergonomics
> and feature sets don't lend themselves as easily to tabular comparison
> except by manufacturers
> who can choose which things to mention, so it's important to read the
> descriptions, read the
> reviews, listen to owners and, if still unsure, sit down with the radios
> before making a decision.
> 
> The Sherwood data is good. Just don't interpret it the wrong way.
> 
> 73,
> 
> /Rick N6XI
> 
>> On Mon, Jun 7, 2021 at 11:54 PM George Thornton <
>> gthorn...@thorntonmostullaw.com> wrote:
>> 
>> I agree that the price for the K4 has to be compared with the fully loaded
>> K3 plus P3.   In that respect it is not overpriced.
>> 
>> I don't think we should make too much of the Sherwood Engineering test
>> data at this point.I would suspect it would be hard for the human ear
>> to tell the difference among the top eight or ten models on the list.  I
>> also think that when the K4 HD unit is out you might see higher results.  I
>> suspect direct sampling technology is not as capable as superhet when it
>> comes to separating out closely spaced signals which is what Sherwood
>> Engineering uses to rank radios.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -Original Message-
>> From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net 
>> On Behalf Of turnbull
>> Sent: Monday, June 7, 2021 11:27 PM
>> To: Doug Person ; elecraft@mailman.qth.net
>> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Giving Up
>> 
>> GM Doug,A fully loaded K3 P3 was always dear.   It rivalled the 7850
>> price but did not reach the cost while arguably being the better radio.
>> The fully loaded K4 is less expensive to my reckoning in todays money than
>> the loaded K3 with P3 and physically smaller.I suspect it may not be so
>> much superior to the K3 in RF terms except that it is in the important area
>> of ergonomics.   The wait has been excessive for sure.Your reasonng is
>> understandable.   Hope the next radio is great.   Meanwhile keep enjoying
>> ham radio.I will keep waiting.73 Doug EI2CNSent from my Galaxy
>>  Original message From: Doug Person 
>> Date: 08/06/2021  03:34  (GMT+00:00) To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
>> Subject: [Elecraft] Giving Up Sadly, I've decided to give up waiting for
>> the K4. I'm probably far down the list anyway. Their are numerous reason
>> for this decision. First, there is the cost. With a tuner the price is
>> $4600 making it one of the most expensive transceivers on the market. I
>> fully realize that the K4 is feature rich and extremely well designed. I
>> would never take anything away from Elecraft's engineering ability. The K3
>> set a new standard of performance that made the other manufacturers
>> substantially up their game - which they did. But is the K4 going to do the
>> same thing the K3 did? To me, it doesn't look like it. Innovative in some,
>> perhaps many ways - yes. A new trend setter? I'm not so sure. When the K3
>> came out it was very competitively priced. I'm not sure I would describe
>> the K4 with the same words. It is unquestionably an expensive radio. At
>> this point the price/performance just isn't there for me. I sold my very
>> complete K3 station several years ago in anticipation of the 

Re: [Elecraft] Giving Up

[Rick Tavan]

Rob Sherwood's data is excellent. The problem is hams thinking the order of
listing is based on an
overall figure of merit. It is *not*. Rob had to choose *one column* on
which to sort his list. When he
first published it, he chose third-order dynamic range (narrow spaced),
probably because many
receivers *of that day* had poor performance on that important metric. For
consistency, he has chosen
to retain that sort order even though many (most?) modern receivers have
improved to the point
where that particular parameter is almost irrelevant when choosing among
top radios. George is
correct that most of us can't tell the difference among radios due to minor
differences in
DR - they are ALL excellent and Rob is careful to point that out when he
speaks at
hamfests. In fact, most modern transceivers excel in so many receiver
performance metrics that
Rob and others are now rightly crusading for improvements in transmitter
performance which
has not advanced as much as receiver performance across the industry. K4
(and K3 before it)
and a few others have excellent transmitter IMD and clean keying that make
them best choices,
especially in crowded or multi-transmitter environments and among hams who
care about not
generating unnecessarily broad signals. That plus ergonomics and operating
features should be
the new basis of comparison but they don't fit on a list of *receiver
performance* metrics.
I'd like to see a new table of select transmitter performance measurements.
Ergonomics
and feature sets don't lend themselves as easily to tabular comparison
except by manufacturers
who can choose which things to mention, so it's important to read the
descriptions, read the
reviews, listen to owners and, if still unsure, sit down with the radios
before making a decision.

The Sherwood data is good. Just don't interpret it the wrong way.

73,

/Rick N6XI

On Mon, Jun 7, 2021 at 11:54 PM George Thornton <
gthorn...@thorntonmostullaw.com> wrote:

> I agree that the price for the K4 has to be compared with the fully loaded
> K3 plus P3.   In that respect it is not overpriced.
>
> I don't think we should make too much of the Sherwood Engineering test
> data at this point.I would suspect it would be hard for the human ear
> to tell the difference among the top eight or ten models on the list.  I
> also think that when the K4 HD unit is out you might see higher results.  I
> suspect direct sampling technology is not as capable as superhet when it
> comes to separating out closely spaced signals which is what Sherwood
> Engineering uses to rank radios.
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net 
> On Behalf Of turnbull
> Sent: Monday, June 7, 2021 11:27 PM
> To: Doug Person ; elecraft@mailman.qth.net
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Giving Up
>
> GM Doug,A fully loaded K3 P3 was always dear.   It rivalled the 7850
> price but did not reach the cost while arguably being the better radio.
>  The fully loaded K4 is less expensive to my reckoning in todays money than
> the loaded K3 with P3 and physically smaller.I suspect it may not be so
> much superior to the K3 in RF terms except that it is in the important area
> of ergonomics.   The wait has been excessive for sure.Your reasonng is
> understandable.   Hope the next radio is great.   Meanwhile keep enjoying
> ham radio.I will keep waiting.73 Doug EI2CNSent from my Galaxy
>  Original message From: Doug Person 
> Date: 08/06/2021  03:34  (GMT+00:00) To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
> Subject: [Elecraft] Giving Up Sadly, I've decided to give up waiting for
> the K4. I'm probably far down the list anyway. Their are numerous reason
> for this decision. First, there is the cost. With a tuner the price is
> $4600 making it one of the most expensive transceivers on the market. I
> fully realize that the K4 is feature rich and extremely well designed. I
> would never take anything away from Elecraft's engineering ability. The K3
> set a new standard of performance that made the other manufacturers
> substantially up their game - which they did. But is the K4 going to do the
> same thing the K3 did? To me, it doesn't look like it. Innovative in some,
> perhaps many ways - yes. A new trend setter? I'm not so sure. When the K3
> came out it was very competitively priced. I'm not sure I would describe
> the K4 with the same words. It is unquestionably an expensive radio. At
> this point the price/performance just isn't there for me. I sold my very
> complete K3 station several years ago in anticipation of the K4. But now
> the waiting has left me thinking about how much I'm willing to invest and
> whether or not another brand whose transceivers are as much as $1500 less
> and whose performance seems quite impressive will meet my needs. After
> literally several years of contemplation I conclude that, for me, the K4 is
> not worth the price. $3600 (with the tuner since every other significant
> radio includes one) would seem competitive and I w

Re: [Elecraft] Receiving with Skimmer SDR on K-3 transmit antennas

[John Simmons]

I've done exactly that! The only issue is that the local transmit signal 
is very strong. Although I haven't done this yet, it'd be nice to use a 
relay to insert some additional attenuation during transmit.


-de John NI0K rural Debs, MN

N4ZR wrote on 6/7/2021 8:49 PM:
I would like to be able to connect my SDR (an RP-16) to my 
transmitting antennas, and have it automatically muted when my 
K3/KPA-1500 goes to transmit.  The idea is to have the best possible 
antennas available for Skimming while active in contests.


It seems to me that I should be able to connect a splitter between the 
RX Out and RX In ports on the K3, and use that to feed the SDR by 
pressing the RX Ant button  (at a cost of ~3.5 dB loss, of course). 
Question is, what happens when I go to transmit - is the RX Out line 
muted so that my SDR won't try to spot me? Ideally, I'd think it would 
be, but I've groped around in the K3 manual and Fred Cady's book, and 
haven't found a concrete answer - can anyone help?




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Re: [Elecraft] Giving Up

[Igor Sokolov]

I am afraid K4HD is going to be even more expensive and when compared 
performance/features/price ratio with FTDX101 that has the same 
architecture Elecraft K4HD does not look to me like a good investment. I 
will keep my K3 and KX3 though and will possibly consider FTDX10 which 
sounds like a good value for money. If only Yaesu did not have those 
tiny difficult to find and deal with connectors. I have also got used to 
at least 3 audio output ports on K3 with own AF amplifier each. UI on 
Elecraft radios is sure much better thought out but the price tag 
overweight.


73, Igor UA9CDC

08.06.2021 11:53, George Thornton пишет:

I agree that the price for the K4 has to be compared with the fully loaded K3 
plus P3.   In that respect it is not overpriced.

I don't think we should make too much of the Sherwood Engineering test data at 
this point.I would suspect it would be hard for the human ear to tell the 
difference among the top eight or ten models on the list.  I also think that 
when the K4 HD unit is out you might see higher results.  I suspect direct 
sampling technology is not as capable as superhet when it comes to separating 
out closely spaced signals which is what Sherwood Engineering uses to rank 
radios.



-Original Message-
From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net  On 
Behalf Of turnbull
Sent: Monday, June 7, 2021 11:27 PM
To: Doug Person ; elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Giving Up

GM Doug,    A fully loaded K3 P3 was always dear.   It rivalled the 7850 price 
but did not reach the cost while arguably being the better radio.   The fully 
loaded K4 is less expensive to my reckoning in todays money than the loaded K3 
with P3 and physically smaller.    I suspect it may not be so much superior to 
the K3 in RF terms except that it is in the important area of ergonomics.   The 
wait has been excessive for sure.Your reasonng is understandable.   Hope the 
next radio is great.   Meanwhile keep enjoying ham radio.I will keep waiting.73 
Doug EI2CNSent from my Galaxy
 Original message From: Doug Person  Date: 
08/06/2021  03:34  (GMT+00:00) To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: [Elecraft] 
Giving Up Sadly, I've decided to give up waiting for the K4. I'm probably far down 
the list anyway. Their are numerous reason for this decision. First, there is the 
cost. With a tuner the price is $4600 making it one of the most expensive 
transceivers on the market. I fully realize that the K4 is feature rich and extremely 
well designed. I would never take anything away from Elecraft's engineering ability. 
The K3 set a new standard of performance that made the other manufacturers 
substantially up their game - which they did. But is the K4 going to do the same 
thing the K3 did? To me, it doesn't look like it. Innovative in some, perhaps many 
ways - yes. A new trend setter? I'm not so sure. When the K3 came out it was very 
competitively priced. I'm not sure I would describe the K4 with the same words. It is 
unquestionably an expensive radio. At this point the price/performance just isn't 
there for me. I sold my very complete K3 station several years ago in anticipation of 
the K4. But now the waiting has left me thinking about how much I'm willing to invest 
and whether or not another brand whose transceivers are as much as $1500 less and 
whose performance seems quite impressive will meet my needs. After literally several 
years of contemplation I conclude that, for me, the K4 is not worth the price. $3600 
(with the tuner since every other significant radio includes one) would seem 
competitive and I would jump on it at this price. But as it is? Can't see doing it. I 
apologize if feelings are hurt or I've made anyone angry. I'm leaving the list since 
I'm no longer waiting patiently for what we once called Vaporware.Good luck to 
everyone on their current and future K4s.Doug -- 
K0DXV__Elecraft mailing 
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