[Elecraft] K3 and Expert 1K-FA
Hi Gary, I'm using since more than thee years the combination K3 - Expert 1K-FA. *I never use the ALC-connection*, but of course the band-information. That is more importand As Don said this would cause distortion at the beginning af each transmission. I simply adjust the K3-Power-Gain to 15 to 20 watts. If You schould forget the powersetting, no problem, the Expert switches down, gives a warning signal and a diagnosis on its display. I'm very content with that nice PA. btw it works well also with my beloved K2 (with KRC2). The KX3 is still not tested, hi Best wishes de Hans (K2 #7029; K3 #536, KX3 #478) __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 with Expert 1K-FA, RS232 connections question?
Expert does not need to occupy the only RS232 port on K3. Expert only eavesdrop what is going on between the K3 and logging program. Unfortunately, Expert will only eavesdrop at up to 9600 bps. For those who use higher speeds, particularly 38.400 to avoid issues with autobaud routines, Expert is a problem. Joe, can you enlighten me on why one would need more then 9600 bps for radio control? I use to use 1200 (which is a default baud rate) on Icom and I use 4800 on my K3. I never felt the need to speed up baud rate even in the fastest contests. It usually takes me 20 seconds to move the station to another band and work him there. And I am usually the first to get back and forth ;) Besides you can always use devices like Microham Microkeyer if you want to isolate Expert from K3 RS232. Microkeyer can translate K3 -logging program conversation into CI-V and one can use that CI-V to control Expert. CI-V output is only available from microKEYER II, MK2R/MK2R+ or Station Master (and now DigiKeyer II). All of those devices have their uses but they are probably not justified just as a translator for band switching an amplifier. I use my microkeyerII as winkey, sound card and sequencer. CI-V is redundant in my installation. Anyway it is very nice feature and could be additional reason for someone to purchase MKII 73, Igor UA9CDC 73, ... Joe Subich, W4TV microHAM America, LLC. http://www.microHAM-USA.com http://groups.yahoo.com/group/microHAM On 6/29/2010 12:49 AM, Igor Sokolov wrote: Glen, since your tuner is only set correctly when you TX, that means that you loose in RX at times. When you jump on a new frequensy (band map spot) your tuner is set incorrectly. Another point is that when you start transmit on the frequency where tuner is set incorrectly, the relays in the tuner are somewhat hot switching which does not make them better at all. Expert does not need to occupy the only RS232 port on K3. Expert only eavesdrop what is going on between the K3 and logging program. Besides you can always use devices like Microham Microkeyer if you want to isolate Expert from K3 RS232. Microkeyer can translate K3 -logging program conversation into CI-V and one can use that CI-V to control Expert. Just MHO 73, Igor UA9CDC - Original Message - From: GLEN BROWN To: Igor Sokolov Cc: Elecraft Reflector Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 2010 2:42 AM Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 with Expert 1K-FA, RS232 connections question? I use an Expert with my K3 and made up a cable with both serial and band data connections. I ended up using only the band data, with the Expert set to expect a Yaesu connection. When you switch bands, the amp selects the appropriate antenna(s). The first time you key the amp sees the freq and sets the tuner without any delay at all. Otherwise the amp takes up the only serial port available from the K3 and it is limited to 9600 baud. I am totally happy with this setup. 73, Glen W6GJB On Sun, Jun 27, 2010 at 6:46 AM, Igor Sokolovua9...@gmail.com wrote: I use CAT data from my K3 to control 1k-FA. I think CAT control has a distinct advantage in case of 1K-FA because the internal antenna tuner in Expert usually has several settings per band. That is especially important on wide bands like 160 or 80 meters. With CAT control these tuner settings are correctly chosen in RX mode. That improves receiving as well as avoids tuner relays switching at the beginning of the transmission. 73, Igor UA9CDC Andy, If you are using computer control of the K3, you will probably have better results if you use the DB15HD connection (BCD Band Data) to control the Expert 1K-FA than trying to parallel the RS-232 (CAT) connections. With the Band Data connection the 1K-FA operates as if it were connected to a Yaesu transceiver. I will send you separately an old drawing by the former Expert distributor showing both (Band Data and CAT) connections. 73, ... Joe, W4TV On 6/27/2010 8:22 AM, GD0TEP wrote: Hello to the group again, I want to connect my K3 to my 1K-FA amplifier, the amplifier manual isn't to clear (to me anyway) on the connections that need to be used. On the amplifier 15pin plug, I use pins 1, 9 14, yes it's that simple. On the K3 RS232 I connect the amplifier pin 1 to K3 pin 3 (I think, I may have these two crossed) On the K3 RS232 I connect the amplifier pin 9 to K3 pin 2 (I think, I may have these two crossed) And On the K3 RS232 I connect the amplifier pin 9 to K3 pin 5 as ground Within the K3 RS232 I need to link the RST and CTS together, well RTS is pin 7 on the K3, but what pin is the CTS Advice would be greatly appreciated. 73, Andy http://gd0tep.com -- __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Re: [Elecraft] K3 with Expert 1K-FA, RS232 connections question?
As I instigated this thread... I received the relative information from W4TV. And, although it wasn't what I was originally looking for, it works just fine. I now have the USB2 interface linked to the K3 and the 1K-FA. Thanks again to those who replied to my original email. 73, Andy http://gd0tep.com __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 with Expert 1K-FA, RS232 connections question?
I use an Expert with my K3 and made up a cable with both serial and band data connections. I ended up using only the band data, with the Expert set to expect a Yaesu connection. When you switch bands, the amp selects the appropriate antenna(s). The first time you key the amp sees the freq and sets the tuner without any delay at all. Otherwise the amp takes up the only serial port available from the K3 and it is limited to 9600 baud. I am totally happy with this setup. 73, Glen W6GJB On Sun, Jun 27, 2010 at 6:46 AM, Igor Sokolov ua9...@gmail.com wrote: I use CAT data from my K3 to control 1k-FA. I think CAT control has a distinct advantage in case of 1K-FA because the internal antenna tuner in Expert usually has several settings per band. That is especially important on wide bands like 160 or 80 meters. With CAT control these tuner settings are correctly chosen in RX mode. That improves receiving as well as avoids tuner relays switching at the beginning of the transmission. 73, Igor UA9CDC Andy, If you are using computer control of the K3, you will probably have better results if you use the DB15HD connection (BCD Band Data) to control the Expert 1K-FA than trying to parallel the RS-232 (CAT) connections. With the Band Data connection the 1K-FA operates as if it were connected to a Yaesu transceiver. I will send you separately an old drawing by the former Expert distributor showing both (Band Data and CAT) connections. 73, ... Joe, W4TV On 6/27/2010 8:22 AM, GD0TEP wrote: Hello to the group again, I want to connect my K3 to my 1K-FA amplifier, the amplifier manual isn't to clear (to me anyway) on the connections that need to be used. On the amplifier 15pin plug, I use pins 1, 9 14, yes it's that simple. On the K3 RS232 I connect the amplifier pin 1 to K3 pin 3 (I think, I may have these two crossed) On the K3 RS232 I connect the amplifier pin 9 to K3 pin 2 (I think, I may have these two crossed) And On the K3 RS232 I connect the amplifier pin 9 to K3 pin 5 as ground Within the K3 RS232 I need to link the RST and CTS together, well RTS is pin 7 on the K3, but what pin is the CTS Advice would be greatly appreciated. 73, Andy http://gd0tep.com __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 with Expert 1K-FA, RS232 connections question?
Glen, since your tuner is only set correctly when you TX, that means that you loose in RX at times. When you jump on a new frequensy (band map spot) your tuner is set incorrectly. Another point is that when you start transmit on the frequency where tuner is set incorrectly, the relays in the tuner are somewhat hot switching which does not make them better at all. Expert does not need to occupy the only RS232 port on K3. Expert only eavesdrop what is going on between the K3 and logging program. Besides you can always use devices like Microham Microkeyer if you want to isolate Expert from K3 RS232. Microkeyer can translate K3 -logging program conversation into CI-V and one can use that CI-V to control Expert. Just MHO 73, Igor UA9CDC - Original Message - From: GLEN BROWN To: Igor Sokolov Cc: Elecraft Reflector Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 2010 2:42 AM Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 with Expert 1K-FA, RS232 connections question? I use an Expert with my K3 and made up a cable with both serial and band data connections. I ended up using only the band data, with the Expert set to expect a Yaesu connection. When you switch bands, the amp selects the appropriate antenna(s). The first time you key the amp sees the freq and sets the tuner without any delay at all. Otherwise the amp takes up the only serial port available from the K3 and it is limited to 9600 baud. I am totally happy with this setup. 73, Glen W6GJB On Sun, Jun 27, 2010 at 6:46 AM, Igor Sokolov ua9...@gmail.com wrote: I use CAT data from my K3 to control 1k-FA. I think CAT control has a distinct advantage in case of 1K-FA because the internal antenna tuner in Expert usually has several settings per band. That is especially important on wide bands like 160 or 80 meters. With CAT control these tuner settings are correctly chosen in RX mode. That improves receiving as well as avoids tuner relays switching at the beginning of the transmission. 73, Igor UA9CDC Andy, If you are using computer control of the K3, you will probably have better results if you use the DB15HD connection (BCD Band Data) to control the Expert 1K-FA than trying to parallel the RS-232 (CAT) connections. With the Band Data connection the 1K-FA operates as if it were connected to a Yaesu transceiver. I will send you separately an old drawing by the former Expert distributor showing both (Band Data and CAT) connections. 73, ... Joe, W4TV On 6/27/2010 8:22 AM, GD0TEP wrote: Hello to the group again, I want to connect my K3 to my 1K-FA amplifier, the amplifier manual isn't to clear (to me anyway) on the connections that need to be used. On the amplifier 15pin plug, I use pins 1, 9 14, yes it's that simple. On the K3 RS232 I connect the amplifier pin 1 to K3 pin 3 (I think, I may have these two crossed) On the K3 RS232 I connect the amplifier pin 9 to K3 pin 2 (I think, I may have these two crossed) And On the K3 RS232 I connect the amplifier pin 9 to K3 pin 5 as ground Within the K3 RS232 I need to link the RST and CTS together, well RTS is pin 7 on the K3, but what pin is the CTS Advice would be greatly appreciated. 73, Andy http://gd0tep.com __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 with Expert 1K-FA, RS232 connections question?
Expert does not need to occupy the only RS232 port on K3. Expert only eavesdrop what is going on between the K3 and logging program. Unfortunately, Expert will only eavesdrop at up to 9600 bps. For those who use higher speeds, particularly 38.400 to avoid issues with autobaud routines, Expert is a problem. Besides you can always use devices like Microham Microkeyer if you want to isolate Expert from K3 RS232. Microkeyer can translate K3 -logging program conversation into CI-V and one can use that CI-V to control Expert. CI-V output is only available from microKEYER II, MK2R/MK2R+ or Station Master (and now DigiKeyer II). All of those devices have their uses but they are probably not justified just as a translator for band switching an amplifier. 73, ... Joe Subich, W4TV microHAM America, LLC. http://www.microHAM-USA.com http://groups.yahoo.com/group/microHAM On 6/29/2010 12:49 AM, Igor Sokolov wrote: Glen, since your tuner is only set correctly when you TX, that means that you loose in RX at times. When you jump on a new frequensy (band map spot) your tuner is set incorrectly. Another point is that when you start transmit on the frequency where tuner is set incorrectly, the relays in the tuner are somewhat hot switching which does not make them better at all. Expert does not need to occupy the only RS232 port on K3. Expert only eavesdrop what is going on between the K3 and logging program. Besides you can always use devices like Microham Microkeyer if you want to isolate Expert from K3 RS232. Microkeyer can translate K3 -logging program conversation into CI-V and one can use that CI-V to control Expert. Just MHO 73, Igor UA9CDC - Original Message - From: GLEN BROWN To: Igor Sokolov Cc: Elecraft Reflector Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 2010 2:42 AM Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 with Expert 1K-FA, RS232 connections question? I use an Expert with my K3 and made up a cable with both serial and band data connections. I ended up using only the band data, with the Expert set to expect a Yaesu connection. When you switch bands, the amp selects the appropriate antenna(s). The first time you key the amp sees the freq and sets the tuner without any delay at all. Otherwise the amp takes up the only serial port available from the K3 and it is limited to 9600 baud. I am totally happy with this setup. 73, Glen W6GJB On Sun, Jun 27, 2010 at 6:46 AM, Igor Sokolovua9...@gmail.com wrote: I use CAT data from my K3 to control 1k-FA. I think CAT control has a distinct advantage in case of 1K-FA because the internal antenna tuner in Expert usually has several settings per band. That is especially important on wide bands like 160 or 80 meters. With CAT control these tuner settings are correctly chosen in RX mode. That improves receiving as well as avoids tuner relays switching at the beginning of the transmission. 73, Igor UA9CDC Andy, If you are using computer control of the K3, you will probably have better results if you use the DB15HD connection (BCD Band Data) to control the Expert 1K-FA than trying to parallel the RS-232 (CAT) connections. With the Band Data connection the 1K-FA operates as if it were connected to a Yaesu transceiver. I will send you separately an old drawing by the former Expert distributor showing both (Band Data and CAT) connections. 73, ... Joe, W4TV On 6/27/2010 8:22 AM, GD0TEP wrote: Hello to the group again, I want to connect my K3 to my 1K-FA amplifier, the amplifier manual isn't to clear (to me anyway) on the connections that need to be used. On the amplifier 15pin plug, I use pins 1, 9 14, yes it's that simple. On the K3 RS232 I connect the amplifier pin 1 to K3 pin 3 (I think, I may have these two crossed) On the K3 RS232 I connect the amplifier pin 9 to K3 pin 2 (I think, I may have these two crossed) And On the K3 RS232 I connect the amplifier pin 9 to K3 pin 5 as ground Within the K3 RS232 I need to link the RST and CTS together, well RTS is pin 7 on the K3, but what pin is the CTS Advice would be greatly appreciated. 73, Andy http://gd0tep.com -- __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
[Elecraft] K3 with Expert 1K-FA, RS232 connections question?
Hello to the group again, I want to connect my K3 to my 1K-FA amplifier, the amplifier manual isn't to clear (to me anyway) on the connections that need to be used. On the amplifier 15pin plug, I use pins 1, 9 14, yes it's that simple. On the K3 RS232 I connect the amplifier pin 1 to K3 pin 3 (I think, I may have these two crossed) On the K3 RS232 I connect the amplifier pin 9 to K3 pin 2 (I think, I may have these two crossed) And On the K3 RS232 I connect the amplifier pin 9 to K3 pin 5 as ground Within the K3 RS232 I need to link the RST and CTS together, well RTS is pin 7 on the K3, but what pin is the CTS Advice would be greatly appreciated. 73, Andy http://gd0tep.com __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 with Expert 1K-FA, RS232 connections question?
Andy, If you are using computer control of the K3, you will probably have better results if you use the DB15HD connection (BCD Band Data) to control the Expert 1K-FA than trying to parallel the RS-232 (CAT) connections. With the Band Data connection the 1K-FA operates as if it were connected to a Yaesu transceiver. I will send you separately an old drawing by the former Expert distributor showing both (Band Data and CAT) connections. 73, ... Joe, W4TV On 6/27/2010 8:22 AM, GD0TEP wrote: Hello to the group again, I want to connect my K3 to my 1K-FA amplifier, the amplifier manual isn't to clear (to me anyway) on the connections that need to be used. On the amplifier 15pin plug, I use pins 1, 9 14, yes it's that simple. On the K3 RS232 I connect the amplifier pin 1 to K3 pin 3 (I think, I may have these two crossed) On the K3 RS232 I connect the amplifier pin 9 to K3 pin 2 (I think, I may have these two crossed) And On the K3 RS232 I connect the amplifier pin 9 to K3 pin 5 as ground Within the K3 RS232 I need to link the RST and CTS together, well RTS is pin 7 on the K3, but what pin is the CTS Advice would be greatly appreciated. 73, Andy http://gd0tep.com __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 with Expert 1K-FA, RS232 connections question?
I use CAT data from my K3 to control 1k-FA. I think CAT control has a distinct advantage in case of 1K-FA because the internal antenna tuner in Expert usually has several settings per band. That is especially important on wide bands like 160 or 80 meters. With CAT control these tuner settings are correctly chosen in RX mode. That improves receiving as well as avoids tuner relays switching at the beginning of the transmission. 73, Igor UA9CDC Andy, If you are using computer control of the K3, you will probably have better results if you use the DB15HD connection (BCD Band Data) to control the Expert 1K-FA than trying to parallel the RS-232 (CAT) connections. With the Band Data connection the 1K-FA operates as if it were connected to a Yaesu transceiver. I will send you separately an old drawing by the former Expert distributor showing both (Band Data and CAT) connections. 73, ... Joe, W4TV On 6/27/2010 8:22 AM, GD0TEP wrote: Hello to the group again, I want to connect my K3 to my 1K-FA amplifier, the amplifier manual isn't to clear (to me anyway) on the connections that need to be used. On the amplifier 15pin plug, I use pins 1, 9 14, yes it's that simple. On the K3 RS232 I connect the amplifier pin 1 to K3 pin 3 (I think, I may have these two crossed) On the K3 RS232 I connect the amplifier pin 9 to K3 pin 2 (I think, I may have these two crossed) And On the K3 RS232 I connect the amplifier pin 9 to K3 pin 5 as ground Within the K3 RS232 I need to link the RST and CTS together, well RTS is pin 7 on the K3, but what pin is the CTS Advice would be greatly appreciated. 73, Andy http://gd0tep.com __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 - SPE Expert 1K-FA and ALC
David, Bandwidth might not be a good argument. I'm not convinced ALC transients are a major universal problem with SSB signals when they are compared to other reasons for bandwidth problems. This isn't the appropriate forum for that discussion. I have looked at ALC overshoot because of my connection with amplifier designs and failures in semiconductors and other sensitive components caused by ALC problems, and the pulse duration is very short. That short pulse repeats only after the ALC has discharged significantly, so the transmitter's gain is high. The problem is a great deal like automatic bias, where the leading edge always causes some distortion as the circuitry changes states. The deeper the bias, the more time it takes to remove it and the stronger the unwanted off-channel energy. ALC is a little worse because the control signal is sampled after some delay and has to wrap back around to the start. This means no matter what they do in the amplifier the cannot cure the leading edge problem. The one exception would be if they held the ALC voltage high and then pulled it down to a level that allowed proper drive. They may be doing that, but an indicator would be a slow power rise on the leading edges. It is a mirror of normal ALC. As for bandwidth measurements, I'm not convinced the WaveNode is good at transient analysis. With FFT analysis, the window where waveform is sampled has to be present at the same time as the transient, and the processing cannot average the power. It has to calculate to provide bandwidth information of the very short duration peaks. The problem is much like the reason a conventional spectrum analyzer will miss ALC problems in all but a few really severe cases. If it isn't sampling the transient frequency when it is there, the extra bandwidth doesn't show. I'm not convinced at all, because the overshoot is so short, it is the major problem we hear on the airor even a significant one. I'm not convinced, and actually think it unlikely, the WaveNode could measure such a short burst. All that aside, because it is a big discussion, we are left with the fact Elecraft has clearly warned to NOT do 100% power control with an external ALC source. That warning is 100% understandable based on the unique way the K3 ALC works. It is absolute common sense the K3 ALC should not be replaced with a traditional external ALC for primary power level control. Even without Wayne's warning, I would not do it now that I understand how the K3 ALC works. To prevent splatter, the K3's internal pre-filter ALC must have primary control of power limits. The amplifier should only provide a fail-safe control that pulls back or kills the exciter drive if limits are reached. By the way, I'm testing new PA module designs with an IC706. It has terrible ALC overshoot. It has 100-watt plus transients when I have it set at 20 watts to drive the PA modules. The K3 does not. Fortunately the MRF-150's are able to handle the 600% overdrive bursts from the IC706 without failure. I keep a couple ICOM's around just for that reason. I cannot test for PA module survival with a bad ALC system in the exciter using the K3, unless I ran the K3 power on full and used an external ALC detector system. Then I could make the K3 emulate the IC-706. Why would people not testing things want to do that 73 Tom __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 - SPE Expert 1K-FA and ALC
Hi Dave, I'm not sure that the embedded picture I received from you would be passed by the reflector, so I'm just quoting your text below. The graphics show that peak distortion in the adjacent channel was only down 25 db from in-channel max power. This even though your trebled up voice is still fairly bass controlled. Which means that if you were up or down from this signal at 20 over on channel, you would be hearing S8 or S9 splatter from it. Sounds familiar, doesn't it. The 1500 watt power spike is particularly frightening, especially if it comes out of my wallet. Might want to pass your results on to the manufacturer as a customer and request they pull that recommendation from their publications and web page. Make sure they understand it's getting them a lot of bad press and is NOT panning out. About as graphic an underscore to Wayne's warning as one can get. (Sorry, couldn't resist) 73, Guy Hello Guy, Well, you sure called it. This screen shot is taken under the same conditions as the previous ones except that the tx equalizer was set to try and simulate a Heil HC4. The tx equalizer settings were: 1 - 0db, 2 - 0db, 3 - 0db, 4 - 0db, 5 - +2db, 6 - + 4db, 7 - + 10db, and 8 - +10db. Two things I noticed right away: First, the peak power is nearly 1500 watts! I sure am glad I still have finals in the Expert. Second, there is definite splatter as evidenced by the light and dark blue on the Modulation quickview window. One can say a lot of things about these tests but one thing comes through loud and clear to me: ALC should not be used to control the K3 set to 100 watts with the Expert 1K FA. Rather the power should be set on each band to just what the Expert needs to reach full power. To do otherwise may cause splatter and might result in final failure. How long can the Expert finals take this kind of abuse? 73 de W6BK __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 - SPE Expert 1K-FA and ALC
Hi Guy, Apparently the reflector does not pass emails with large attachments. I think it is pretty graphic and I would like others to see it if I can figure out how. I'll call SteppIR tomorrow and discuss it with them. I support your recommendation that they take that recommended method of operation out of their manual. I will forward that email to Gianfranco at SPE (Expert). Thanks for all your help. 73 de W6BK On May 16, 2010, at 1:20 PM, Guy Olinger K2AV wrote: Hi Dave, I'm not sure that the embedded picture I received from you would be passed by the reflector, so I'm just quoting your text below. The graphics show that peak distortion in the adjacent channel was only down 25 db from in-channel max power. This even though your trebled up voice is still fairly bass controlled. Which means that if you were up or down from this signal at 20 over on channel, you would be hearing S8 or S9 splatter from it. Sounds familiar, doesn't it. The 1500 watt power spike is particularly frightening, especially if it comes out of my wallet. Might want to pass your results on to the manufacturer as a customer and request they pull that recommendation from their publications and web page. Make sure they understand it's getting them a lot of bad press and is NOT panning out. About as graphic an underscore to Wayne's warning as one can get. (Sorry, couldn't resist) 73, Guy Hello Guy, Well, you sure called it. This screen shot is taken under the same conditions as the previous ones except that the tx equalizer was set to try and simulate a Heil HC4. The tx equalizer settings were: 1 - 0db, 2 - 0db, 3 - 0db, 4 - 0db, 5 - +2db, 6 - + 4db, 7 - + 10db, and 8 - +10db. Two things I noticed right away: First, the peak power is nearly 1500 watts! I sure am glad I still have finals in the Expert. Second, there is definite splatter as evidenced by the light and dark blue on the Modulation quickview window. One can say a lot of things about these tests but one thing comes through loud and clear to me: ALC should not be used to control the K3 set to 100 watts with the Expert 1K FA. Rather the power should be set on each band to just what the Expert needs to reach full power. To do otherwise may cause splatter and might result in final failure. How long can the Expert finals take this kind of abuse? 73 de W6BK __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 - SPE Expert 1K-FA and ALC
The usual way is to put it up on a web page somewhere, and put the link in the email. 73, Guy On Sun, May 16, 2010 at 5:07 PM, David M. Elliott immondi...@earthlink.net wrote: Hi Guy, Apparently the reflector does not pass emails with large attachments. I think it is pretty graphic and I would like others to see it if I can figure out how. I'll call SteppIR tomorrow and discuss it with them. I support your recommendation that they take that recommended method of operation out of their manual. I will forward that email to Gianfranco at SPE (Expert). Thanks for all your help. 73 de W6BK On May 16, 2010, at 1:20 PM, Guy Olinger K2AV wrote: Hi Dave, I'm not sure that the embedded picture I received from you would be passed by the reflector, so I'm just quoting your text below. The graphics show that peak distortion in the adjacent channel was only down 25 db from in-channel max power. This even though your trebled up voice is still fairly bass controlled. Which means that if you were up or down from this signal at 20 over on channel, you would be hearing S8 or S9 splatter from it. Sounds familiar, doesn't it. The 1500 watt power spike is particularly frightening, especially if it comes out of my wallet. Might want to pass your results on to the manufacturer as a customer and request they pull that recommendation from their publications and web page. Make sure they understand it's getting them a lot of bad press and is NOT panning out. About as graphic an underscore to Wayne's warning as one can get. (Sorry, couldn't resist) 73, Guy Hello Guy, Well, you sure called it. This screen shot is taken under the same conditions as the previous ones except that the tx equalizer was set to try and simulate a Heil HC4. The tx equalizer settings were: 1 - 0db, 2 - 0db, 3 - 0db, 4 - 0db, 5 - +2db, 6 - + 4db, 7 - + 10db, and 8 - +10db. Two things I noticed right away: First, the peak power is nearly 1500 watts! I sure am glad I still have finals in the Expert. Second, there is definite splatter as evidenced by the light and dark blue on the Modulation quickview window. One can say a lot of things about these tests but one thing comes through loud and clear to me: ALC should not be used to control the K3 set to 100 watts with the Expert 1K FA. Rather the power should be set on each band to just what the Expert needs to reach full power. To do otherwise may cause splatter and might result in final failure. How long can the Expert finals take this kind of abuse? 73 de W6BK __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 - SPE Expert 1K-FA and ALC
2010/4/22, LA8AW odd...@gmail.com: Here is the statement from the developer of the SPE Expert 1K-FA - regarding ALC, quoted from an early Expert Reflector: I hope this will clarify the SPE Expert vs K3 - and ALC !! *We really suggest to always leave the transceiver's output power manual* *control to its maximum level because the EXPERT, thanks to its exclusive* *design, will provide to control that level as long as the required optimal* *value will be reached.* Has anyone actually measured the combination of a K3 and the SPE amp connected and adjusted as suggested by SPE? I have run my setup without ALC, but I am curious about the statement and what the real results are. 73 de Björn, SM0MDG SE0X __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 - SPE Expert 1K-FA and ALC
Elecraft has warned NOT to listen to that advice . The K3 ALC could only get worse and misbehave when the slow loop from an amplifier is added. - Original Message - From: Björn Mohr b...@broadcast.se To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Sent: Saturday, May 15, 2010 7:25 AM Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 - SPE Expert 1K-FA and ALC 2010/4/22, LA8AW odd...@gmail.com: Here is the statement from the developer of the SPE Expert 1K-FA - regarding ALC, quoted from an early Expert Reflector: I hope this will clarify the SPE Expert vs K3 - and ALC !! *We really suggest to always leave the transceiver's output power manual* *control to its maximum level because the EXPERT, thanks to its exclusive* *design, will provide to control that level as long as the required optimal* *value will be reached.* Has anyone actually measured the combination of a K3 and the SPE amp connected and adjusted as suggested by SPE? I have run my setup without ALC, but I am curious about the statement and what the real results are. 73 de Björn, SM0MDG SE0X __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 - SPE Expert 1K-FA and ALC
Sorry, with all due respect this is HORRIBLE advice. I won't argue with those that say that the ALC should be connected for its protective value. But it should not be depended on to control output level -- the exciter should be adjusted to produce approximately the drive required for full output. The SPE Expert may have an exclusive design, but it is not exclusive enough to include a time machine so that it can know how loud the operator is planning to talk, and it doesn't control the delay inherent in the exciter's ALC circuitry. The result is guaranteed to be increased distortion. On 5/15/2010 4:25 AM, Björn Mohr wrote: 2010/4/22, LA8AWodd...@gmail.com: Here is the statement from the developer of the SPE Expert 1K-FA - regarding ALC, quoted from an early Expert Reflector: I hope this will clarify the SPE Expert vs K3 - and ALC !! We really suggest to always leave the transceiver's output power manual control to its maximum level because the EXPERT, thanks to its exclusive design, will provide to control that level as long as the required optimal value will be reached. -- Vic, K2VCO Fresno CA http://www.qsl.net/k2vco/ __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 - SPE Expert 1K-FA and ALC
If increased distortion is guaranteed, why doesn't it show on the spectrum scope? We are obviously missing something here. 73 de W6BK On May 15, 2010, at 11:03 AM, Vic K2VCO wrote: Sorry, with all due respect this is HORRIBLE advice. I won't argue with those that say that the ALC should be connected for its protective value. But it should not be depended on to control output level -- the exciter should be adjusted to produce approximately the drive required for full output. The SPE Expert may have an exclusive design, but it is not exclusive enough to include a time machine so that it can know how loud the operator is planning to talk, and it doesn't control the delay inherent in the exciter's ALC circuitry. The result is guaranteed to be increased distortion. On 5/15/2010 4:25 AM, Björn Mohr wrote: 2010/4/22, LA8AWodd...@gmail.com: Here is the statement from the developer of the SPE Expert 1K-FA - regarding ALC, quoted from an early Expert Reflector: I hope this will clarify the SPE Expert vs K3 - and ALC !! We really suggest to always leave the transceiver's output power manual control to its maximum level because the EXPERT, thanks to its exclusive design, will provide to control that level as long as the required optimal value will be reached. -- Vic, K2VCO Fresno CA http://www.qsl.net/k2vco/ __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 - SPE Expert 1K-FA and ALC
Because if you are using something you can measure, like two tone, the gains are already set and steady. To measure leading edge distortions before an AGC loop or loops bite and settle takes some pretty expensive lab equipment, both before and after the transmitter/amp. What you got? It IS terrible advice. 73, Guy. On Sat, May 15, 2010 at 4:25 PM, David M. Elliott immondi...@earthlink.net wrote: If increased distortion is guaranteed, why doesn't it show on the spectrum scope? We are obviously missing something here. 73 de W6BK On May 15, 2010, at 11:03 AM, Vic K2VCO wrote: Sorry, with all due respect this is HORRIBLE advice. I won't argue with those that say that the ALC should be connected for its protective value. But it should not be depended on to control output level -- the exciter should be adjusted to produce approximately the drive required for full output. The SPE Expert may have an exclusive design, but it is not exclusive enough to include a time machine so that it can know how loud the operator is planning to talk, and it doesn't control the delay inherent in the exciter's ALC circuitry. The result is guaranteed to be increased distortion. On 5/15/2010 4:25 AM, Björn Mohr wrote: 2010/4/22, LA8AWodd...@gmail.com: Here is the statement from the developer of the SPE Expert 1K-FA - regarding ALC, quoted from an early Expert Reflector: I hope this will clarify the SPE Expert vs K3 - and ALC !! We really suggest to always leave the transceiver's output power manual control to its maximum level because the EXPERT, thanks to its exclusive design, will provide to control that level as long as the required optimal value will be reached. -- Vic, K2VCO Fresno CA http://www.qsl.net/k2vco/ __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 - SPE Expert 1K-FA and ALC
I agree with Guy and Vic. It is not good to load up an amp and use AGC to tamp it down. Lord knows there are enough bad sounding stations already on the air, especially on sideband. Rob K6RB - Original Message - From: Vic K2VCO v...@rakefet.com To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Sent: Saturday, May 15, 2010 11:03 AM Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 - SPE Expert 1K-FA and ALC Sorry, with all due respect this is HORRIBLE advice. I won't argue with those that say that the ALC should be connected for its protective value. But it should not be depended on to control output level -- the exciter should be adjusted to produce approximately the drive required for full output. The SPE Expert may have an exclusive design, but it is not exclusive enough to include a time machine so that it can know how loud the operator is planning to talk, and it doesn't control the delay inherent in the exciter's ALC circuitry. The result is guaranteed to be increased distortion. On 5/15/2010 4:25 AM, Björn Mohr wrote: 2010/4/22, LA8AWodd...@gmail.com: Here is the statement from the developer of the SPE Expert 1K-FA - regarding ALC, quoted from an early Expert Reflector: I hope this will clarify the SPE Expert vs K3 - and ALC !! We really suggest to always leave the transceiver's output power manual control to its maximum level because the EXPERT, thanks to its exclusive design, will provide to control that level as long as the required optimal value will be reached. -- Vic, K2VCO Fresno CA http://www.qsl.net/k2vco/ __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 - SPE Expert 1K-FA and ALC
In general, I would agree with You and Guy and Vic. However, Gianfranco of SPE (Expert) suggests running the exciter at full power. He says there is no splatter and the proof of the pudding is in the eating. That seems to be true. I can't see any splatter on the WaveNode and several on the air tests report fine audio with no splatter. I repeat: There is something here we don't understand. Any comment, Gianfranco? 73 de W6BK 73 de W6BK On May 15, 2010, at 2:13 PM, Rob wrote: I agree with Guy and Vic. It is not good to load up an amp and use AGC to tamp it down. Lord knows there are enough bad sounding stations already on the air, especially on sideband. Rob K6RB - Original Message - From: Vic K2VCO v...@rakefet.com To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Sent: Saturday, May 15, 2010 11:03 AM Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 - SPE Expert 1K-FA and ALC Sorry, with all due respect this is HORRIBLE advice. I won't argue with those that say that the ALC should be connected for its protective value. But it should not be depended on to control output level -- the exciter should be adjusted to produce approximately the drive required for full output. The SPE Expert may have an exclusive design, but it is not exclusive enough to include a time machine so that it can know how loud the operator is planning to talk, and it doesn't control the delay inherent in the exciter's ALC circuitry. The result is guaranteed to be increased distortion. On 5/15/2010 4:25 AM, Björn Mohr wrote: 2010/4/22, LA8AWodd...@gmail.com: Here is the statement from the developer of the SPE Expert 1K-FA - regarding ALC, quoted from an early Expert Reflector: I hope this will clarify the SPE Expert vs K3 - and ALC !! We really suggest to always leave the transceiver's output power manual control to its maximum level because the EXPERT, thanks to its exclusive design, will provide to control that level as long as the required optimal value will be reached. -- Vic, K2VCO Fresno CA http://www.qsl.net/k2vco/ __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 - SPE Expert 1K-FA and ALC
Any time the gain of the system changes, there's distortion. In SSB mode, I would expect it to occur when the ALC voltage changes, such as at the beginning of syllables, etc. On 5/15/2010 3:10 PM, David M. Elliott wrote: In general, I would agree with You and Guy and Vic. However, Gianfranco of SPE (Expert) suggests running the exciter at full power. He says there is no splatter and the proof of the pudding is in the eating. That seems to be true. I can't see any splatter on the WaveNode and several on the air tests report fine audio with no splatter. I repeat: There is something here we don't understand. Any comment, Gianfranco? -- Vic, K2VCO Fresno CA http://www.qsl.net/k2vco/ __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 - SPE Expert 1K-FA and ALC
Hi Vic Yup, ALC is not feedforward correction system. It is a servo like mechanism that corrects after the distortion has left, then it corrects. For SSB splatter this is a disaster which we dont need. The worst example of this is the Yaesu Quadra, it is the worst buckshot generator on the bands. The Quadra when used with ALC is an horrendous splatter generator. Closing the stable door after the horse has bolted, is not good amateur practice. Having the horse bolt several hundred times during a QSO is not pleasant for others. Feedback ALC systems dont belong in modern ham equipment. All Japanese transceivers have ALC overshoot issues. We need to get back to the transmitter gain or drive adjustments that set the drive power precisely with no overshoot. Its a nice dream that does not exist in modern ham transceiver. Most commercial and mil SSB equipment have a drive or TGA(transmitter gain adjustment) knob. John --- On Sat, 5/15/10, Vic K2VCO v...@rakefet.com wrote: From: Vic K2VCO v...@rakefet.com Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 - SPE Expert 1K-FA and ALC To: David M. Elliott immondi...@earthlink.net Cc: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Date: Saturday, May 15, 2010, 3:56 PM Any time the gain of the system changes, there's distortion. In SSB mode, I would expect it to occur when the ALC voltage changes, such as at the beginning of syllables, etc. On 5/15/2010 3:10 PM, David M. Elliott wrote: In general, I would agree with You and Guy and Vic. However, Gianfranco of SPE (Expert) suggests running the exciter at full power. He says there is no splatter and the proof of the pudding is in the eating. That seems to be true. I can't see any splatter on the WaveNode and several on the air tests report fine audio with no splatter. I repeat: There is something here we don't understand. Any comment, Gianfranco? -- Vic, K2VCO Fresno CA http://www.qsl.net/k2vco/ __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 - SPE Expert 1K-FA and ALC
However, Gianfranco of SPE (Expert) suggests running the exciter at full power. He says there is no splatter and the proof of the pudding is in the eating. That seems to be true. I can't see any splatter on the WaveNode and several on the air tests report fine audio with no splatter. I repeat: There is something here we don't understand. We went through this ALC stuff just one month or so ago. The problem with ALC is the ALC system response delay and the propagation delay through the radio, especially narrow filters. The leading edge of everything takes a hit until the ALC level comes up. The time delay to interact with the system is the problem. With a reasonable ALC hang time the splatter is not too objectionable on a crowded band, but on real quiet bands it can be disruptive to weak signals. It is a very broad bandwidth short duration problem. In my opinion it isn't the major problem we face with SSB bandwidth and we may be over focusing a little on it. The duration is so short the average power is very low, but it is there. It would be very easy to miss on a spectrum analyzer, as a matter of fact I would say it is nearly impossible to catch. A selective level meter would be a far better detector. The real problem is the K3 has a unique ALC system that is in front of the filtering, so leading edge delay isn't an issue. Since the K3 has no leading edge transients, and since anything after the radio (except a clamp or fast attenuator) can not fix the transients, I don't see why anyone would want to run external ALC with the K3. Here is what Wayne said: K3 external ALC setup is covered on page 27 of the owner's manual. Please read this page before attempting to use external ALC with any amplifier. Executive summary: 1. DO NOT turn the K3's power all the way up and use amplifier ALC to maintain peak power at the output of your amplifier. This WILL NOT work. 2. Instead, adjust the power level at the K3 to provide just enough drive to hit the peak power desired at the amp. You may want to set CONFIG:PWR SET to PER BAND so you don't have to adjust power each time you change bands. (This is also covered on page 27.) 3. External ALC is accommodated as a safety backup in the event that peak power suddenly increases, etc., due to a failure or load change. When properly applied, it will rarely be needed. Technical details: The K3 is designed to *not* depend on fast external ALC, because that absolutely, positively causes splatter. We studied lab work from several authors on this topic and decided to take a different approach: our fast ALC is all applied *ahead* of the 1st I.F. crystal filter (it's handled by DSP, at the AF and 2nd I.F. stages). We do apply slow, long-term ALC after the crystal filter, but this can't cause splatter because of the long time constant. External ALC, if used, is factored into this part of the equation. Yes, the K3 is unique in this regard. It may be slightly inconvenient, but it will result in a cleaner signal. 73, Wayne N6KR 73 Tom __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 - SPE Expert 1K-FA and ALC
Hi Dave, Thank you for the pictures. Worth thousand words, etc. And there IS difference between the two. Can you detail the setup from end to end, particularly your RX setup and K3 TX voice settings? I'm not sure what your audio waveform is from exactly in A and B, you'll need to tell us. But if that's human voice, it's a very base-dominated voice spectrum, unlikely to generate obvious splatter. The 0-400 or 0-500 band, whatever it is, is 18 db above the next strongest band in your modulation quickview, and so the lowest band is completely controlling the power, not the attack of the silibants. This would not be the measured waveform for a contest optimized voice, with the treble accentuated for punch, where splatter-producing TX/amp setups show their true colors. Set up for contest punch. Do the comparison with the lower frequencies severely reduced in the K3 TX equalization, and the compression up around 20-30. Or get your wife to do the voice and have her holler at the mike like it was the kids (only a few assumptions there...). Turn OFF the averaging in the program and leave the peak hold on. The duration and hence the average power of silibants are quite less than the lower frequencies, and the distortion products off silibants even less. It is the distortion's instantaneous peak power that causes the most problem, not its peak power times duration (average power). The speech used for the test should be on a recording. Run the K3 barefoot off the recording, bypassing the amp, measure and make your pictures, and then include the amp and repeat from the recording without changing anything on the K3. This is probably a 25 watt A/B and a 100 watt A/B. The receiving device should be run with FIXED gain, NO RX AGC, any overdrive issues worked out in advance. Compare those spectrums. But even this is still approximate, because the RX device (unless it's a very good RX device like another K3 or K2) can create the highest distortion which covers up any true differences. The real test would be to run a very stable square rise and fall CW dit with a pulse width of about 2 or 3 milliseconds with a repetition rate of about one second, and repeating the test for longer pulse widths. This requires a signal generator followed by a high power lab linear amp instead of a K3 to drive the amp, but would isolate added spectrum that occurs on predictable frequencies at predictable times and can be precisely measured. The receiving device and presentation would have to be certified for the general circumstances. I don't own this stuff either, just get to drool on it during isolated opportunities. As to others listening for splatter, one WOULD think others could hear it. However, back in the day of controversy over what rigs had and didn't have key clicks, it was amazing how many people could NOT hear or otherwise detect the bad clicks on a MEASURED dirty rig, for whatever reason I really don't know. So I'm skeptical since I don't see much difference in hearing splatter and hearing key clicks. The problem I have, even if the SBE does manage to do amplification relatively cleanly, is if someone else reads this thread later on without any blowback on the claim, the readers extrapolate to other amps and there it goes... So the SBE method is not going without blowback. SBE may think they have created a marketing differentiation, but for the time being they've crossed themselves off my list on account of recommending smashmouth drive and ALC. What else that I don't know about, yet? 73, Guy. On Sat, May 15, 2010 at 6:32 PM, David M. Elliott immondi...@earthlink.net wrote: These two screen shots were taken using a WaveNode WN2. The exciter was a K3 and the amplifier was the Expert 1K FA. Both were SSB at 3.952 MHz. The conditions for both of these screen shots were the same except that the first one was using an exciter power of 25 watts and the second was using an exciter power of 100 watts. The amp was using ALC control in both cases. I don't see any signs of splatter in either case, do you? This test seems to support what the Expert folks are saying. 73 de W6BK On May 15, 2010, at 1:48 PM, Guy Olinger K2AV wrote: Because if you are using something you can measure, like two tone, the gains are already set and steady. To measure leading edge distortions before an AGC loop or loops bite and settle takes some pretty expensive lab equipment, both before and after the transmitter/amp. What you got? It IS terrible advice. 73, Guy. On Sat, May 15, 2010 at 4:25 PM, David M. Elliott immondi...@earthlink.net wrote: If increased distortion is guaranteed, why doesn't it show on the spectrum scope? We are obviously missing something here. 73 de W6BK On May 15, 2010, at 11:03 AM, Vic K2VCO wrote: Sorry, with all due respect this is HORRIBLE advice. I won't argue with those that say that the ALC should be connected for its protective value. But it should not be
Re: [Elecraft] K3 - SPE Expert 1K-FA and ALC
Thanks Guy for the well thought out response. Now we are getting somewhere. The setup is a K3 using an Elecraft hand microphone feeding an Expert 1K FA solid state linear to a Windom antenna. The detector is a WaveNode WM2. The RF sensor module is between the Expert and the Antenna. The WaveNode is described on their web site (You can Google it,) and the manual is there too. The K3 is set up using ESSB with a width of 3.2. The tx equalizer is flat except for bands 7 and 8 which are set for -6db. The audio was my spoken voice so would be different from A to B. I have been told that I have a radio voice and should have been in broadcasting. I made a few radio and tv commercials for a company I worked for in the mid 1970s and to this day I have people come up to me and ask if I was on the radio in Cleveland. Somehow they remember the voice after decades. As you say, it is very base dominated. The WaveNode is a really fun toy which I am just now figuring out how to use. What I look for to see splatter is the presence of colors other than green in the Modulation Quickview window. If I see that, I know there is splatter. If I don't, then I assume I am OK. As you suggest, I will try this with the tx equalizer set up for narrow contest operation. I'll let you know what happens. In any case, I am convinced that the K3 should be operated with the Expert with each band of the K3 set for only the power necessary to drive the Expert to its rated power. In my case, this is 15 watts plus or minus a few. It is interesting to note that I can drive the Expert to nearly full power with my QRP K2. I'll report back on further tests. Thanks for all your good words. 73 de W6BK On May 15, 2010, at 6:06 PM, Guy Olinger K2AV wrote: Hi Dave, Thank you for the pictures. Worth thousand words, etc. And there IS difference between the two. Can you detail the setup from end to end, particularly your RX setup and K3 TX voice settings? I'm not sure what your audio waveform is from exactly in A and B, you'll need to tell us. But if that's human voice, it's a very base-dominated voice spectrum, unlikely to generate obvious splatter. The 0-400 or 0-500 band, whatever it is, is 18 db above the next strongest band in your modulation quickview, and so the lowest band is completely controlling the power, not the attack of the silibants. This would not be the measured waveform for a contest optimized voice, with the treble accentuated for punch, where splatter-producing TX/amp setups show their true colors. Set up for contest punch. Do the comparison with the lower frequencies severely reduced in the K3 TX equalization, and the compression up around 20-30. Or get your wife to do the voice and have her holler at the mike like it was the kids (only a few assumptions there...). Turn OFF the averaging in the program and leave the peak hold on. The duration and hence the average power of silibants are quite less than the lower frequencies, and the distortion products off silibants even less. It is the distortion's instantaneous peak power that causes the most problem, not its peak power times duration (average power). The speech used for the test should be on a recording. Run the K3 barefoot off the recording, bypassing the amp, measure and make your pictures, and then include the amp and repeat from the recording without changing anything on the K3. This is probably a 25 watt A/B and a 100 watt A/B. The receiving device should be run with FIXED gain, NO RX AGC, any overdrive issues worked out in advance. Compare those spectrums. But even this is still approximate, because the RX device (unless it's a very good RX device like another K3 or K2) can create the highest distortion which covers up any true differences. The real test would be to run a very stable square rise and fall CW dit with a pulse width of about 2 or 3 milliseconds with a repetition rate of about one second, and repeating the test for longer pulse widths. This requires a signal generator followed by a high power lab linear amp instead of a K3 to drive the amp, but would isolate added spectrum that occurs on predictable frequencies at predictable times and can be precisely measured. The receiving device and presentation would have to be certified for the general circumstances. I don't own this stuff either, just get to drool on it during isolated opportunities. As to others listening for splatter, one WOULD think others could hear it. However, back in the day of controversy over what rigs had and didn't have key clicks, it was amazing how many people could NOT hear or otherwise detect the bad clicks on a MEASURED dirty rig, for whatever reason I really don't know. So I'm skeptical since I don't see much difference in hearing splatter and hearing key clicks. The problem I have, even if the SBE does manage to do amplification relatively cleanly, is if someone else
Re: [Elecraft] K3 and Expert 1K-FA
Without an attenuator to match levels, people are gambling with or without the ALC connected. 73 Tom I agree. I was surprised to see that my IC-706MKII put out a full power spike regardless of where the output power was set (even set at 5-weatts output, the first-dit spike was 100+ watts). I measuered the drive required for my ALS-600 and built an attenuator that is switched in-line when I turn on the amplifier. This way I can always leave my transceiver set to full power and not worry about overdriving the amp, either with a first-dit spike or forgetting to reduce drive when I put the amp in-line (info in the Articles section at www.ad5x.com). The K3 has solved the overshoot problem, but not the forgetting to turn down drive problem for me. The attenuator takes care of that. I use my K3 A-output for barefoot operation, and the B-output going to the ALS-600/MFJ-998 combo. I do this since the amp and tuner are not designed for 6 meters, and don't look good on 6-meters even when bypassed. So the A-output with the K3 ATU is used on 160-6 meters for barefoot operation, and the B-output with K3 ATU bypassed is used for 160-10 meters with the ALS-600/MFJ-998. I connect A-barefoot or B-amplified outputs to the appropriate antenna with a 6x6 remote antenna switch (MFJ-4726). Yes, the K3 remembers power settings on a per-band basis, but not on an A/B basis (yet). Phil - AD5X __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
[Elecraft] K3 and Expert 1K-FA
Hello I use the Expert 1K-FA with K3 full power and ALC , but i think i have two issue. When i use K3 full power ( with Expert full power ) the rig output is not stable but fluctuates around 15 watt and more or less of 5 watt , and of course the output of Expert varies consequently . When i use Expert half power i have not issue , the input and output power are stable. Another issue is that when i put the Expert in STBY , the K3 output power does not return instantly at 100 w , but slowly in 3 - 4 seconds. When i not use the ALC i have not issue. Thank you Franco I6QFZ __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 and Expert 1K-FA
Franco, Forget about the ALC. Up till now I have never used the ALC between my TRX and PA. No need to. Just gently set the power of the trx yourself to drive the PA to the right powerlevel and go. 73 Arie PA3A -Oorspronkelijk bericht- Hello I use the Expert 1K-FA with K3 full power and ALC , but i think i have two issue. When i use K3 full power ( with Expert full power ) the rig output is not stable but fluctuates around 15 watt and more or less of 5 watt , and of course the output of Expert varies consequently . When i use Expert half power i have not issue , the input and output power are stable. Another issue is that when i put the Expert in STBY , the K3 output power does not return instantly at 100 w , but slowly in 3 - 4 seconds. When i not use the ALC i have not issue. Thank you Franco I6QFZ __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 and Expert 1K-FA
Hi Franco, Fully agree Arie's comments, I'm not using an auto Amp. only a manual one with a Russian tetrode, and only checked on the K3 that the time delay corresponds to the amp specs and that's all. With my K3-100, most of the time I'm driving it with 12W and the output with my amp is ±350W thats cover most of my applications. At 13W it engage the KPA100 for higher power needs. Just set the K3 to the power level you want to use without going over the specs of your equipment. Bst 73's Philippe A65BI Arie Kleingeld PA3A p...@xs4all.nl 21-04-2010 11:25 Franco, Forget about the ALC. Up till now I have never used the ALC between my TRX and PA. No need to. Just gently set the power of the trx yourself to drive the PA to the right powerlevel and go. 73 Arie PA3A -Oorspronkelijk bericht- Hello I use the Expert 1K-FA with K3 full power and ALC , but i think i have two issue. When i use K3 full power ( with Expert full power ) the rig output is not stable but fluctuates around 15 watt and more or less of 5 watt , and of course the output of Expert varies consequently . When i use Expert half power i have not issue , the input and output power are stable. Another issue is that when i put the Expert in STBY , the K3 output power does not return instantly at 100 w , but slowly in 3 - 4 seconds. When i not use the ALC i have not issue. Thank you Franco I6QFZ __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 and Expert 1K-FA
Before this faulty opinion proliferates any further; what applies to tube amps does not follow with solid state amps. ALC is required by most manufacturers of solid state amps to prevent overdriving and the resulting damage to the amplifier. ALC is the mechanism used to achieve this protection. We were the original USA importer of the Expert 1KFA and it requires ALC. Tokyo Hy-Power does as well. Can you manually limit your output from your radio and avoid damage? Yes. Even so, why take the risk? Hook up the ALC and adjust it according to the amplifier manufacturer's instruction. If it is not working correctly, refer the problem to the amplifier manufacturer or dealer. So, please do not advise someone with a solid state amp to disconnect their ALC- unless you want to assume the cost of repairs. 73, Bob W5OV Array Solutions (Tokyo Hy-Power Dealer) -Original Message- From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Philippe Trottet Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2010 2:52 AM To: Franco Cazzaniga; Arie Kleingeld PA3A Cc: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 and Expert 1K-FA Hi Franco, Fully agree Arie's comments, I'm not using an auto Amp. only a manual one with a Russian tetrode, and only checked on the K3 that the time delay corresponds to the amp specs and that's all. With my K3-100, most of the time I'm driving it with 12W and the output with my amp is ±350W thats cover most of my applications. At 13W it engage the KPA100 for higher power needs. Just set the K3 to the power level you want to use without going over the specs of your equipment. Bst 73's Philippe A65BI Arie Kleingeld PA3A p...@xs4all.nl 21-04-2010 11:25 Franco, Forget about the ALC. Up till now I have never used the ALC between my TRX and PA. No need to. Just gently set the power of the trx yourself to drive the PA to the right powerlevel and go. 73 Arie PA3A -Oorspronkelijk bericht- Hello I use the Expert 1K-FA with K3 full power and ALC , but i think i have two issue. When i use K3 full power ( with Expert full power ) the rig output is not stable but fluctuates around 15 watt and more or less of 5 watt , and of course the output of Expert varies consequently . When i use Expert half power i have not issue , the input and output power are stable. Another issue is that when i put the Expert in STBY , the K3 output power does not return instantly at 100 w , but slowly in 3 - 4 seconds. When i not use the ALC i have not issue. Thank you Franco I6QFZ __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 and Expert 1K-FA
Hi Bob, I will apologize because I responded to quickly thinking all Hams are like me...by bad habit. I will not listed here problems faced with not properly designed ALC's during the past and as Hams we are suppose to go a bit further to keep the maximum of our equipment...within the limits. As the original importer it is your duty to write it and I fully agee with your comments. ALC is useful for full auto Amps, specially the solid states one. During my all career in Telecoms started 1972, I never burned any Amp (Ham Broadcast), solid state or valves by overdriving. But I read carefully the specs before testing any new equipment and have costly equipment in my pro lab to monitor it, that is not the case of most of Hams. So again mea culpa. Bst 73's Philippe A65BI K3#3616 By Hams, for Hams...What else ? Philippe TROTTET Head of Field Telecom Unit - DUBAI United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees International Humanitarian City Office Building Nº3 - Room 2, 1st Floor Doha Street PO BOX: 506013 DUBAI - U.A.E. Dubai time: GMT +4 W: Sunday to Thursday HQ Ext: 7120 Vsat: xx 41 22 7120 External: +971 4 3601753 +41 22 739 7120 Mobile: +971 504531756 Website: www.unhcr.org ( http://www.unhcr.org/ ) Bob Naumann w...@w5ov.com 21-04-2010 16:36 Before this faulty opinion proliferates any further; what applies to tube amps does not follow with solid state amps. ALC is required by most manufacturers of solid state amps to prevent overdriving and the resulting damage to the amplifier. ALC is the mechanism used to achieve this protection. We were the original USA importer of the Expert 1KFA and it requires ALC. Tokyo Hy-Power does as well. Can you manually limit your output from your radio and avoid damage? Yes. Even so, why take the risk? Hook up the ALC and adjust it according to the amplifier manufacturer's instruction. If it is not working correctly, refer the problem to the amplifier manufacturer or dealer. So, please do not advise someone with a solid state amp to disconnect their ALC- unless you want to assume the cost of repairs. 73, Bob W5OV Array Solutions (Tokyo Hy-Power Dealer) -Original Message- From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Philippe Trottet Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2010 2:52 AM To: Franco Cazzaniga; Arie Kleingeld PA3A Cc: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 and Expert 1K-FA Hi Franco, Fully agree Arie's comments, I'm not using an auto Amp. only a manual one with a Russian tetrode, and only checked on the K3 that the time delay corresponds to the amp specs and that's all. With my K3-100, most of the time I'm driving it with 12W and the output with my amp is ±350W thats cover most of my applications. At 13W it engage the KPA100 for higher power needs. Just set the K3 to the power level you want to use without going over the specs of your equipment. Bst 73's Philippe A65BI Arie Kleingeld PA3A p...@xs4all.nl 21-04-2010 11:25 Franco, Forget about the ALC. Up till now I have never used the ALC between my TRX and PA. No need to. Just gently set the power of the trx yourself to drive the PA to the right powerlevel and go. 73 Arie PA3A -Oorspronkelijk bericht- Hello I use the Expert 1K-FA with K3 full power and ALC , but i think i have two issue. When i use K3 full power ( with Expert full power ) the rig output is not stable but fluctuates around 15 watt and more or less of 5 watt , and of course the output of Expert varies consequently . When i use Expert half power i have not issue , the input and output power are stable. Another issue is that when i put the Expert in STBY , the K3 output power does not return instantly at 100 w , but slowly in 3 - 4 seconds. When i not use the ALC i have not issue. Thank you Franco I6QFZ __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http
Re: [Elecraft] K3 and Expert 1K-FA
So, please do not advise someone with a solid state amp to disconnect their ALC- unless you want to assume the cost of repairs. Overall, I agree with that assessment. However, I do no not make use of the K3's ALC line with my SPE solid-state amp. In looking at the SPE's protection circuitry, a fault buss is created that applies a high level of bias to the power MOSFETs when any of about 6-7 different fault conditions occur. The response time is exceptionally fast to the point where if I deliberately blast the SPE with full power from the K3 without ALC connected (don't try this at home - I'm a risk taker but did so only after reviewing the circuit), the SPE detects the presence of high input power and applies enough MOSFET bias to keep output power below about 1100 watts. How instantaneous? I have not measured the response time but it does respond well to the leading-edge power spike from another well-known transceiver. Today, a solid-state amp should be smart enough to know when it's being overdriven. Also, an unknown with the SPE amp is what happens to amplifier linearity when the bias protection circuitry begins to engage to keep power from exceeding 1KW? But the same question must be asked of any transceiver that interfaces to an amp while using an ALC line. I like to think that when an amp and transceiver come from a common manufacturer, the ALC circuitry is probably optimized since the designer knows exactly what's needed at the ALC meet me point between the amp and transceiver. Paul, W9AC __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 and Expert 1K-FA
Paul, What if you have one of the 200w or new 400w output rigs? What if you have one of those radios that shoot out a spike of greater than 100w at the beginning of every transmission? Do people blast the inputs of their SS amps with 200w or 400w? You bet they do. They fry the FETs immediately too. We see them on a fairly frequent basis and we have gotten adept at swapping out FETs quickly - at significant expense to the owner of the amp. In the vast majority of cases, they had ALC disconnected and made a mistake when switching antenna outputs from these high-power transceivers. So, if you feel confident that you won't make a mistake, then go ahead and take the risk of not having ALC connected and adjusted properly. But, keep in mind the costly consequences that can result if you make a mistake. I do not understand why one would not connect the ALC when its purpose is to prevent damage. Not using ALC is not a badge of courage; instead, it is a foolish tempting of fate - in my opinion. Also, most amp manufacturers recommend that you only increase the output of the radio high enough to achieve the desired output from the amp - they do not recommend turning the radio output up full-blast and throttling the output back down with ALC - which, as we all know can cause distortion and all sorts of bad things. There is no downside to using ALC in the manner that SS amp manufacturers recommend. So, the bottom line is to follow the manufacturer's recommendation regarding ALC and setting your radio to work properly in conjunction with it. 73, Bob W5OV -Original Message- From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Paul Christensen Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2010 9:10 AM To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 and Expert 1K-FA So, please do not advise someone with a solid state amp to disconnect their ALC- unless you want to assume the cost of repairs. Overall, I agree with that assessment. However, I do no not make use of the K3's ALC line with my SPE solid-state amp. In looking at the SPE's protection circuitry, a fault buss is created that applies a high level of bias to the power MOSFETs when any of about 6-7 different fault conditions occur. The response time is exceptionally fast to the point where if I deliberately blast the SPE with full power from the K3 without ALC connected (don't try this at home - I'm a risk taker but did so only after reviewing the circuit), the SPE detects the presence of high input power and applies enough MOSFET bias to keep output power below about 1100 watts. How instantaneous? I have not measured the response time but it does respond well to the leading-edge power spike from another well-known transceiver. Today, a solid-state amp should be smart enough to know when it's being overdriven. Also, an unknown with the SPE amp is what happens to amplifier linearity when the bias protection circuitry begins to engage to keep power from exceeding 1KW? But the same question must be asked of any transceiver that interfaces to an amp while using an ALC line. I like to think that when an amp and transceiver come from a common manufacturer, the ALC circuitry is probably optimized since the designer knows exactly what's needed at the ALC meet me point between the amp and transceiver. Paul, W9AC __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 and Expert 1K-FA
Do people blast the inputs of their SS amps with 200w or 400w? You bet they do. They fry the FETs immediately too. And that can occur whether or not an ALC line is used between the transceiver and amp since ALC is a feedback function and the response time back to the transceiver, and the response time of the transceiver, is not instantaneous. We see them on a fairly frequent basis and we have gotten adept at swapping out FETs quickly - at significant expense to the owner of the amp. In the vast majority of cases, they had ALC disconnected and made a mistake when switching antenna outputs from these high-power transceivers. When repairing the THP amps for failed MOSFETs, how do you know with certainty the ALC line was disconnected by the customer? Also, what is the typical ALC response time of the THP amplifiers? I think it would be an interesting exercise to set up multiple transceivers across vendors, together with multiple solid-state amps across vendors, and measure the total ALC loop time period. Paul, W9AC __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 and Expert 1K-FA
Franco, you should only use the ALC as amplifier protection. ARRL's 1K-FA product review listed the 1K-FA drive requirements as 28-32 watts typical for full output. Driving it at 100 watts and using dynamic ALC to reduce the level to 30 watts running SSB definitely will produce varying results. This is not a K3 problem. Since the ALC had been reducing your drive to 30 watts, the K3 is operating with the idea that when you set the power to 100 what you really need is 30. When you put the amp in standby, it takes a while for the K3 to figure out, by lack of ALC coming from the Expert, that now you really do want 100 watts with the power knob at 100 watts. The K3 has a slow power recovery curve to keep from spiking amps in similar situations where ALC is slow or non existent. Reduce the K3 output power to 25 watts and only increase it until you have full power from the Expert which DOES NOT engage the Expert ALC. Use a peak power meter, or adjust it on CW to determine the drive. Do NOT use ALC to accomplish speech compression, use the compression control in the K3, which is a far more clever digital method without the side effects. Driving the ALC more than three times normal drive power WILL produce splatter, no matter how good manufactures say their ALC is. 73, Guy On Wed, Apr 21, 2010 at 3:03 AM, Franco Cazzaniga f.ame...@tin.it wrote: Hello I use the Expert 1K-FA with K3 full power and ALC , but i think i have two issue. When i use K3 full power ( with Expert full power ) the rig output is not stable but fluctuates around 15 watt and more or less of 5 watt , and of course the output of Expert varies consequently . When i use Expert half power i have not issue , the input and output power are stable. Another issue is that when i put the Expert in STBY , the K3 output power does not return instantly at 100 w , but slowly in 3 - 4 seconds. When i not use the ALC i have not issue. Thank you Franco I6QFZ __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 and Expert 1K-FA
Well said Bob. Harry WE1X Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -Original Message- From: Bob Naumann w...@w5ov.com Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 09:33:18 To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 and Expert 1K-FA Paul, What if you have one of the 200w or new 400w output rigs? What if you have one of those radios that shoot out a spike of greater than 100w at the beginning of every transmission? Do people blast the inputs of their SS amps with 200w or 400w? You bet they do. They fry the FETs immediately too. We see them on a fairly frequent basis and we have gotten adept at swapping out FETs quickly - at significant expense to the owner of the amp. In the vast majority of cases, they had ALC disconnected and made a mistake when switching antenna outputs from these high-power transceivers. So, if you feel confident that you won't make a mistake, then go ahead and take the risk of not having ALC connected and adjusted properly. But, keep in mind the costly consequences that can result if you make a mistake. I do not understand why one would not connect the ALC when its purpose is to prevent damage. Not using ALC is not a badge of courage; instead, it is a foolish tempting of fate - in my opinion. Also, most amp manufacturers recommend that you only increase the output of the radio high enough to achieve the desired output from the amp - they do not recommend turning the radio output up full-blast and throttling the output back down with ALC - which, as we all know can cause distortion and all sorts of bad things. There is no downside to using ALC in the manner that SS amp manufacturers recommend. So, the bottom line is to follow the manufacturer's recommendation regarding ALC and setting your radio to work properly in conjunction with it. 73, Bob W5OV -Original Message- From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Paul Christensen Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2010 9:10 AM To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 and Expert 1K-FA So, please do not advise someone with a solid state amp to disconnect their ALC- unless you want to assume the cost of repairs. Overall, I agree with that assessment. However, I do no not make use of the K3's ALC line with my SPE solid-state amp. In looking at the SPE's protection circuitry, a fault buss is created that applies a high level of bias to the power MOSFETs when any of about 6-7 different fault conditions occur. The response time is exceptionally fast to the point where if I deliberately blast the SPE with full power from the K3 without ALC connected (don't try this at home - I'm a risk taker but did so only after reviewing the circuit), the SPE detects the presence of high input power and applies enough MOSFET bias to keep output power below about 1100 watts. How instantaneous? I have not measured the response time but it does respond well to the leading-edge power spike from another well-known transceiver. Today, a solid-state amp should be smart enough to know when it's being overdriven. Also, an unknown with the SPE amp is what happens to amplifier linearity when the bias protection circuitry begins to engage to keep power from exceeding 1KW? But the same question must be asked of any transceiver that interfaces to an amp while using an ALC line. I like to think that when an amp and transceiver come from a common manufacturer, the ALC circuitry is probably optimized since the designer knows exactly what's needed at the ALC meet me point between the amp and transceiver. Paul, W9AC __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 and Expert 1K-FA
What if you have one of the 200w or new 400w output rigs? What if you have one of those radios that shoot out a spike of greater than 100w at the beginning of every transmission? Do people blast the inputs of their SS amps with 200w or 400w? You bet they do. They fry the FETs immediately too. We see them on a fairly frequent basis and we have gotten adept at swapping out FETs quickly - at significant expense to the owner of the amp. In the vast majority of cases, they had ALC disconnected and made a mistake when switching antenna outputs from these high-power transceivers. So, if you feel confident that you won't make a mistake, then go ahead and take the risk of not having ALC connected and adjusted properly. But, keep in mind the costly consequences that can result if you make a mistake. A word of additional caution While external ALC might force a long term power reduction, the external ALC system generally does not correct overshoot in radios. It almost never reduces power spikes on leading edges. The reason ALC does not normally affect the spikes, and why typical external ALC systems cannot reduce the spike, is the response delay in the ALC system inside the radio. There is group delay in filter, and there is propagation delay through the radio. There is also delay in the actual ALC system. The gain control system is up front in the radio, almost always ahead of filters and the delays. The ALC sampling is after filters, and in the case of amplifier derived ALC it is no better than the directional coupler that samples power inside the radio. It is a serious mistake to let the external ALC, derived after the filters and group delay in the radio, do primary power control. What the ALC does buy people is gain control or power limiting if the knob on the radio is adjusted wrong, but it most certainly will not correct leading edge spikes. It's my understanding the K3 uses a two stage system, and handles the sampling before passing through filters. I'm still trying to get my head around how it works and why I am uncomfortable with how the meters act, but at least it addresses the overshoot problem. The amplifier ALC should be connected, if the manufacturer requires it, but don't expect it to make something like an IC 775 not pop FET's. The correct approach would be an attenuator pad so the radio could run at near full power and not have a chance of overdriving the amp, or better yet buy a radio that does not spike to 250 watts at the leading edge. Now there is one exception to this. If the amplifier has a memory on ALC, and holds the ALC at the highest value and reduces ALC until power comes slowly up to the correct value,, then there would be no overshoot. I'm not aware of any amplifiers that do this, and I expect customers would complain about the slow power response and lack of compression or reduced average power with a system like that. Without an attenuator to match levels, people are gambling with or without the ALC connected. 73 Tom __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 and Expert 1K-FA
On Wed, 2010-04-21 at 12:23 -0400, Tom W8JI wrote: The correct approach would be an attenuator pad so the radio could run at near full power and not have a chance of overdriving the amp, ... I don't understand why more people don't do that. For example, a 3 dB attenuator between the transceiver and amplifier ensures that a 100W exciter won't overdrive an amplifier that requires 50W of drive. The 3 dB loss on receive is hardly ever an issue but if you're worried about it, just put the attenuator inside the amplifier, after the T/R relay. Seems like a simple, foolproof solution. Al N1AL __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 and Expert 1K-FA
Yes. In fact since with the except of a few newer radios 100W seems to be the standard it seems to me that amplifier suppliers should build amps to that standard. If they have enough gain to deliver rated power with only 50 W in, then put a 3 dB pad inside. There are additional benefits to this, including a more uniform match for the exciter (possibly lowering IMD) and a better defined source match for the amplifier (possibly lowering IMD). In fact, it can be argued that the ALC should be internal to the amplifier, rather than depending on some unknown loop characteristics in the exciter. Imagine a receiver designer trying to design an AGC loop when he doesn't know the characteristics of the gain-controlled stage(s). Seems to me that some combination of fixed attenuation, some PIN diodes and active control of the device bias would solve a lot of operational issues. Wes N7WS --- On Wed, 4/21/10, Alan Bloom n...@cds1.net wrote: On Wed, 2010-04-21 at 12:23 -0400, Tom W8JI wrote: The correct approach would be an attenuator pad so the radio could run at near full power and not have a chance of overdriving the amp, ... I don't understand why more people don't do that. For example, a 3 dB attenuator between the transceiver and amplifier ensures that a 100W exciter won't overdrive an amplifier that requires 50W of drive. The 3 dB loss on receive is hardly ever an issue but if you're worried about it, just put the attenuator inside the amplifier, after the T/R relay. Seems like a simple, foolproof solution. Al N1AL __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 and Expert 1K-FA
I agree on the protective response time of the Expert being very fast, I have accidently hit it with 100w a couple times . it alarms and shuts down with no apparent harm done.the absolutely best amplifier I have ever used. Jack W4GRJ -Original Message- From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Paul Christensen Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2010 10:10 AM To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 and Expert 1K-FA So, please do not advise someone with a solid state amp to disconnect their ALC- unless you want to assume the cost of repairs. Overall, I agree with that assessment. However, I do no not make use of the K3's ALC line with my SPE solid-state amp. In looking at the SPE's protection circuitry, a fault buss is created that applies a high level of bias to the power MOSFETs when any of about 6-7 different fault conditions occur. The response time is exceptionally fast to the point where if I deliberately blast the SPE with full power from the K3 without ALC connected (don't try this at home - I'm a risk taker but did so only after reviewing the circuit), the SPE detects the presence of high input power and applies enough MOSFET bias to keep output power below about 1100 watts. How instantaneous? I have not measured the response time but it does respond well to the leading-edge power spike from another well-known transceiver. Today, a solid-state amp should be smart enough to know when it's being overdriven. Also, an unknown with the SPE amp is what happens to amplifier linearity when the bias protection circuitry begins to engage to keep power from exceeding 1KW? But the same question must be asked of any transceiver that interfaces to an amp while using an ALC line. I like to think that when an amp and transceiver come from a common manufacturer, the ALC circuitry is probably optimized since the designer knows exactly what's needed at the ALC meet me point between the amp and transceiver. Paul, W9AC __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
[Elecraft] K3 - SPE Expert 1K-FA and ALC
All, Here is the statement from the developer of the SPE Expert 1K-FA - regarding ALC, quoted from an early Expert Reflector: I hope this will clarify the SPE Expert vs K3 - and ALC !! Please excuse me if I step on someones toes.. quote *The Elecraft K3 had positive-going ALC, too. In helping them test their* *conversion of the K3 to negative-going ALC with different amps, I received* *an email from Gianfranco, copy below. His thoughts on how the SPE Expert is* *designed to handle transceiver drive may apply here to the Ten-Tec.* * * *FWIW,* * * *Bob* *K5LLF* * * *Hello Bob,* * * *Elecraft has a strong reputation for manufacturing cost effective and* *quality transceivers, and for this I'm glad that they decided to conform* *with the state-of-the-art negative ALC how is commonly intended by all the* *other manufacturers.* * * *As you well know the ALC is a transceiver's input used to adjust its output * *power during transmission: at 0 Vdc there is a maximum power emission and,* *little by little the control voltage decreases toward negative values,* *output power emission is reduced until it becomes practically nothing at a* *given BV (Break Voltage) control voltage.* * * *Every brand has a different BV (ICOM: -3/-4 Vdc, YAESU: -4/-5 Vdc,* *KENWOOD: -8/-9 Vdc; etc.).* * * *In order to have the widest possible coverage, all the linear amplifiers'* *manufacturers state that the maximum ALC voltage excursion sourced by their * *devices is -11 Vdc.* * * *From this perspective Elecraft's choice (0 Vdc: max PW; -4 Vdc: min PW)* *sounds good then, but a very important detail to take into account is the* *overall intervention time which has to be the shortest possible!* * * *All the ordinary linear amplifiers have an external potentiometer which sets* * * *a given threshold (manually adjusted by the user) whose purpose is to avoid * *the linear amplifier's over-driving when that threshold is exceeded.* * * *SPE EXPERT 1K-FA is quite different from those because is fully automatic* *within its working: ALC control is not only for avoiding over-driving* *situations, but it is also intended as a system for adjusting the optimal* *output power for a perfect driving of the transceiver itself.* * * *We really suggest to always leave the transceiver's output power manual* *control to its maximum level because the EXPERT, thanks to its exclusive* *design, will provide to control that level as long as the required optimal* *value will be reached.* * * *Don't try to analyse the ALC control voltage of our linear amplifier because* *it cannot be measured using ordinary methods as it operates dynamically for * *assuring a great linearity.* * * *Elecraft has only to implement a very fast input able to deal with negative * *voltages as all the other manufacturers already do: SPE's amplifier will* *adapt to that in order to work for the best possible linearity.* * * * * * * *73's* * * *Gianfranco I0ZY* unquote _ 73 de LA8AW - Odd-Egil _ __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 - SPE Expert 1K-FA and ALC
*We really suggest to always leave the transceiver's output power manual* *control to its maximum level because the EXPERT, thanks to its exclusive* *design, will provide to control that level as long as the required optimal* *value will be reached.* *Elecraft has only to implement a very fast input able to deal with negative *voltages as all the other manufacturers already do: SPE's amplifier will* *adapt to that in order to work for the best possible linearity.* The ALC loop response can never be faster than group delay through the transmitter chain. While I have never measured the Elecraft filter, some crystal filters have a few mS delay. The propagation through the rest of the circuitry adds to the delay, as does the inevitable delay time in the actual ALC system. All of those delays, from the ALC control point forward to the ALC detection, and back from that point to the AGC controlled stage, add together. Elecraft did a VERY smart thing by having the ALC detection, or at least part of the ALC detection, ahead of the narrow filters and everything else. Running the radio full on and relying on the amplifier ALC would undo this, and may not bring the results assumed. Not only that, running other radios full on and depending 100% on amplifier ALC is probably not a good idea either. The less stuff between the power sampling point and the gain controlled stage, the better off we are. The whole reason some radios have overshoot is they run gain wide open and depend on a detector at the antenna port to reduce power, and the sum of delays from the gain controlled stage to the antenna, through the detector, through a comparator, and back to the gain controlled stage is what causes the problem in the first place. Moving the detection point out of the radio is never a benefit. I can't think of a reason in the world to use the amplifier ALC for anything other than a safety limit, especially with a rig like the K3 that does gain control and ALC ahead of the filters and components that cause most of the delay in the ALC loop. Can anyone else see why running the radio wide open and using 100% external detection is a good idea? 73 Tom __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 and Expert 1K-FA
When repairing the THP amps for failed MOSFETs, how do you know with certainty the ALC line was disconnected by the customer? The customers tell us. 73, Bob W5OV -Original Message- From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Paul Christensen Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2010 10:14 AM To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 and Expert 1K-FA Do people blast the inputs of their SS amps with 200w or 400w? You bet they do. They fry the FETs immediately too. And that can occur whether or not an ALC line is used between the transceiver and amp since ALC is a feedback function and the response time back to the transceiver, and the response time of the transceiver, is not instantaneous. We see them on a fairly frequent basis and we have gotten adept at swapping out FETs quickly - at significant expense to the owner of the amp. In the vast majority of cases, they had ALC disconnected and made a mistake when switching antenna outputs from these high-power transceivers. When repairing the THP amps for failed MOSFETs, how do you know with certainty the ALC line was disconnected by the customer? Also, what is the typical ALC response time of the THP amplifiers? I think it would be an interesting exercise to set up multiple transceivers across vendors, together with multiple solid-state amps across vendors, and measure the total ALC loop time period. Paul, W9AC __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
