CISPR22 Edition 5 SLCE and Ethernet

[emc-p...@ieee.org]

Hi everyone,

 

Is anyone on the list familiar with the work on CISPR 22 and a part of the
standard committee? I am looking at CISPR 22 Edition 5 (2005), trying to
understand the specific requirements on ISN and CDN for Signal Line Conducted
emission, especially the so called Longitudinal Conversion Loss (LCL) and the
appropriateness of the ISN and CDN for Ethernet (four unscreened differential
pairs).

 

I see some issues that can affect Ethernet devices, and since there are many
of such devices on the market that are or will be tested according to this
standard, I believe there might be considerable general interest to adopt a
test method that is appropriate to Gbit Ethernet and similar devices.

 

If anyone has any influence on the development of this standard, and is
willing to discuss it further with me, I would appreciate it off line, and
using my work email address, which is npis...@broadcom.com

 

Here are just some of the issues I see:

 

If I am reading the Edition 5 correctly, the LCL (specified in 9.6.2) must be
within the limits on the page 51. I am troubled with the intent of the
standard is to introduce (create) imbalance by the ISN or CDN in order to
“simulate” real installations. I have extensive background in the
associated topics, and I have not seen any objective and verifiable data that
would support the limit in LCL. Is there anyone who might present such data
and the method that lead to the data? BTW, I can’t find in the Standard the
suggested method to measure LCL, nor can I get the LCL-data from a prominent
ISN/CDN vendor who I contacted (!).

 

In my opinion, it would be much better to define “minimum” LCL, and allow
using ISN and CDN with (infinitely) better/higher LCL. That would make it
easier to design ISN and CDN. Depending on the construction, it may be hard
enough to design a well-balanced ISC/CDN, and it is even harder to purposely
imbalance it with a predefined characteristics. If the intention of the
Standard is to create something that would “look like real installation”,
that could be taken into account by adjusting the limit-line - assuming that
one knows how “real-installation” looks WRT conversion, which is very
questionable.

 

Using an ISN of Figure D.3 is likely going to affect the Ethernet signals, to
the point that the interface would fail the IEEE conformance (one parameter
that immediately comes to mind is Return Loss) or the manufacturers’ spec on
cable-reach. That is especially because of L3-L6 and maybe due to L1-L2.
Therefore I don’t think using this ISN is appropriate, at least not with the
specification as-is, although that is what some (maybe many) test labs use.

 

The ISN form Figure D.6 might be more appropriate for Ethernet, but again here
is the issue (in my mind) of the LCL as I described above, plus additional
need of a decoupling the AE-side. The issue of affecting the signals remains,
although the interface would “work” if the only criterion for
“working” is whether it passes data through some length of cable.

 

I can, relatively easily, construct a 150-Ohm ISN that would be much more
appropriate for Ethernet, and that is well-balanced (not intentionally
imbalanced). It could be imbalanced if required, but I don't feel it ould be
appropriate - as I have described ealrier. As I mentioned in the introduction,
since Ethernet has such a broad application, I believe it might be even
appropriate to offer it in the Standard an alternative ISN construction that
is appropriate for Ethernet.

 

Of course, the current and voltage clamp metod is well-suited, but the test is
cumbersome and may result in over-testing (worst-case), so I would prefer a
more forward (but also a more appropriate) method.

 

Enough for now, if there is any interest this topic – especially by anyone
who might have inputs to CISPR22 – this can be taken farther from here
(preferably off-line) and to my work email. 

 

Regards,

 

Neven Pischl

Senior Principal Engineer

Networking Infrastructure Applications

Broadcom Corporation

San Jose, CA

 

npis...@broadcom.com

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RE: EN 301 489-1 emissions question

[emc-p...@ieee.org]

David:
All:
 
To claim compliance with EN 301489-1 (I am looking at V1.6.1), Clause 8.4.3
Limits, the way the clause is worded, your equipment is not installed in a
"telecommunications center" as one would infer from ETSI TR 101 651.  The
reason for "Table 9: Limits for conducted emissions of equipment intended to
be used in telecommunication centres only" is to be in alignment with EN 300
386, which does allow Class A conducted emissions limits, as previously
discussed.
 
It appears you will be having to comply with the Section 8.4.3; Table 8,
Conducted Limits.
 
  
William T. Sykes
Lucent Technologies EH&S
Product Safety/Conformance Manager
Room 7B-516A
600-700 Mountain Avenue
Murray Hill, NJ  07974-0636 
(908)582-6937
  

From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org]On Behalf Of David Gelfand
Sent: Friday, June 09, 2006 2:05 PM
To: emc-p...@ieee.org
Subject: RE: EN 301 489-1 emissions question


So, how about my original question?  Is Class A conducted emissions ok for a
tower-mount VSAT power amp?  Depending on the answer, I will either enjoy a
beer or have a terrible weekend.
 
Regards,
 
David.

  _  

From: McInturff Gary [mailto:gmcintu...@spraycool.com] 
Sent: 9 juin 2006 13:27
To: Mike Hurley; David Heald; David Gelfand
Cc: emc-p...@ieee.org
Subject: RE: EN 301 489-1 emissions question - Euro telecom center A or B
classification?


Mike, I owe you a beer now. You just made my day. Unfortunately since we are
unlikely to ever been in the same place I'm taking it upon myself to drink it
for you too. I'll let you know if you enjoyed it. Thanks Gary


  _  

From: Mike Hurley [mailto:mikehur...@meadtest.com]
Sent: Fri 6/9/2006 9:38 AM
To: McInturff Gary; 'David Heald'; 'David Gelfand'
Cc: emc-p...@ieee.org
Subject: RE: EN 301 489-1 emissions question - Euro telecom center A or B
classification?


Gary,
 
Your recollection is correct, Telecom centres were indeed Class B in Europe.  
 It took us several years in the ETSI EE4 committee to get it changed to class
A and even then it was by the somewhat devious means of removing emission
limits from EN300 386 and instead referencing directly to EN55022.   There are
probably a few emc-pstc folk who remember the struggle.
 
Mike

From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of McInturff Gary
Sent: 09 June 2006 15:50
To: David Heald; David Gelfand
Cc: emc-p...@ieee.org
Subject: RE: EN 301 489-1 emissions question - Euro telecom center A or B
classification?
 
Same question haunts me – I have a vague recollection that for some odd
reason European telecommunications centers were Class B but I can’t find the
reference. Maybe the distinction is “telecommunication centers ONLY” So
I’m also interested in the answer if some one has it.
Thanks
Gary
 

  _  

From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of David Heald
Sent: Friday, June 09, 2006 7:04 AM
To: David Gelfand
Cc: emc-p...@ieee.org
Subject: Re: EN 301 489-1 emissions question
 
David,
  I am quite certain that a 'telecommunications center' is a central office. 
But, before just assuming that Class A is ok for telecom centers, I'd check
with the telecom company to be sure that they don't have a requirement for
Class B (I have this gut feel that I've run into that but I can't remember any
specifics). 
 
Best Regards
-Dave

 
On 6/9/06, David Gelfand  wrote: 
I need help from our esteemed CE mark experts!

EMC radio equipment standard EN 301 489-1 calls out EN 55022 Class B 
limits in general, and Class A limits for "...equipment intended for use
in telecommunication centres only,..."  What is considered a
"telecommunication centre?"  Unfortunately I can not find any definition 
for this term in the standard, or in any other standards I have
consulted.
mc-pstc 
-  This
message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc
discussion list. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ 
To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org 

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All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: 

http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
-  This
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For policy

RE: EN 301 489-1 emissions question

[emc-p...@ieee.org]

So, how about my original question?  Is Class A conducted emissions ok for a
tower-mount VSAT power amp?  Depending on the answer, I will either enjoy a
beer or have a terrible weekend.
 
Regards,
 
David.

  _  

From: McInturff Gary [mailto:gmcintu...@spraycool.com] 
Sent: 9 juin 2006 13:27
To: Mike Hurley; David Heald; David Gelfand
Cc: emc-p...@ieee.org
Subject: RE: EN 301 489-1 emissions question - Euro telecom center A or B
classification?


Mike, I owe you a beer now. You just made my day. Unfortunately since we are
unlikely to ever been in the same place I'm taking it upon myself to drink it
for you too. I'll let you know if you enjoyed it. Thanks Gary


  _  

From: Mike Hurley [mailto:mikehur...@meadtest.com]
Sent: Fri 6/9/2006 9:38 AM
To: McInturff Gary; 'David Heald'; 'David Gelfand'
Cc: emc-p...@ieee.org
Subject: RE: EN 301 489-1 emissions question - Euro telecom center A or B
classification?


Gary,
 
Your recollection is correct, Telecom centres were indeed Class B in Europe.  
 It took us several years in the ETSI EE4 committee to get it changed to class
A and even then it was by the somewhat devious means of removing emission
limits from EN300 386 and instead referencing directly to EN55022.   There are
probably a few emc-pstc folk who remember the struggle.
 
Mike

From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of McInturff Gary
Sent: 09 June 2006 15:50
To: David Heald; David Gelfand
Cc: emc-p...@ieee.org
Subject: RE: EN 301 489-1 emissions question - Euro telecom center A or B
classification?
 
Same question haunts me – I have a vague recollection that for some odd
reason European telecommunications centers were Class B but I can’t find the
reference. Maybe the distinction is “telecommunication centers ONLY” So
I’m also interested in the answer if some one has it.
Thanks
Gary
 
  _  

From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of David Heald
Sent: Friday, June 09, 2006 7:04 AM
To: David Gelfand
Cc: emc-p...@ieee.org
Subject: Re: EN 301 489-1 emissions question
 
David,
  I am quite certain that a 'telecommunications center' is a central office. 
But, before just assuming that Class A is ok for telecom centers, I'd check
with the telecom company to be sure that they don't have a requirement for
Class B (I have this gut feel that I've run into that but I can't remember any
specifics). 
 
Best Regards
-Dave

 
On 6/9/06, David Gelfand  wrote: 
I need help from our esteemed CE mark experts!

EMC radio equipment standard EN 301 489-1 calls out EN 55022 Class B 
limits in general, and Class A limits for "...equipment intended for use
in telecommunication centres only,..."  What is considered a
"telecommunication centre?"  Unfortunately I can not find any definition 
for this term in the standard, or in any other standards I have
consulted.
mc-pstc 
-  This
message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc
discussion list. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ 
To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org 

Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html 

List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html 

For help, send mail to the list administrators: 

Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org 

For policy questions, send mail to: 

Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: emc-p...@daveheald.com 

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: 

http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
-  This
message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc
discussion list. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ 
To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org 

Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html 

List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html 

For help, send mail to the list administrators: 

Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org 

For policy questions, send mail to: 

Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: emc-p...@daveheald.com 

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: 

http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc 

RE: EN 301 489-1 emissions question - Euro telecom center A or B classification?

[emc-p...@ieee.org]

Mike, I owe you a beer now. You just made my day. Unfortunately since we are
unlikely to ever been in the same place I'm taking it upon myself to drink it
for you too. I'll let you know if you enjoyed it. Thanks Gary

  _  

From: Mike Hurley [mailto:mikehur...@meadtest.com]
Sent: Fri 6/9/2006 9:38 AM
To: McInturff Gary; 'David Heald'; 'David Gelfand'
Cc: emc-p...@ieee.org
Subject: RE: EN 301 489-1 emissions question - Euro telecom center A or B
classification?


Gary,
 
Your recollection is correct, Telecom centres were indeed Class B in Europe.  
 It took us several years in the ETSI EE4 committee to get it changed to class
A and even then it was by the somewhat devious means of removing emission
limits from EN300 386 and instead referencing directly to EN55022.   There are
probably a few emc-pstc folk who remember the struggle.
 
Mike

From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of McInturff Gary
Sent: 09 June 2006 15:50
To: David Heald; David Gelfand
Cc: emc-p...@ieee.org
Subject: RE: EN 301 489-1 emissions question - Euro telecom center A or B
classification?
 
Same question haunts me – I have a vague recollection that for some odd
reason European telecommunications centers were Class B but I can’t find the
reference. Maybe the distinction is “telecommunication centers ONLY” So
I’m also interested in the answer if some one has it.
Thanks
Gary
 
  _  

From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of David Heald
Sent: Friday, June 09, 2006 7:04 AM
To: David Gelfand
Cc: emc-p...@ieee.org
Subject: Re: EN 301 489-1 emissions question
 
David,
  I am quite certain that a 'telecommunications center' is a central office. 
But, before just assuming that Class A is ok for telecom centers, I'd check
with the telecom company to be sure that they don't have a requirement for
Class B (I have this gut feel that I've run into that but I can't remember any
specifics). 
 
Best Regards
-Dave

 
On 6/9/06, David Gelfand  wrote: 
I need help from our esteemed CE mark experts!

EMC radio equipment standard EN 301 489-1 calls out EN 55022 Class B 
limits in general, and Class A limits for "...equipment intended for use
in telecommunication centres only,..."  What is considered a
"telecommunication centre?"  Unfortunately I can not find any definition 
for this term in the standard, or in any other standards I have
consulted.
mc-pstc 
-  This
message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc
discussion list. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ 
To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org 

Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html 

List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html 

For help, send mail to the list administrators: 

Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org 

For policy questions, send mail to: 

Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: emc-p...@daveheald.com 

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: 

http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc -
 This message
is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list.
Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ 

To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org 

Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html 

List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html 

For help, send mail to the list administrators: 

Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org 

For policy questions, send mail to: 

Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: emc-p...@daveheald.com 

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: 

http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc

RE: EN 301 489-1 emissions question - Euro telecom center A or B classification?

[emc-p...@ieee.org]

Everyone

 

It is also useful to remember that compliance with the relevant harmonised
standard(s) allows the manufacturer to place his product on the market, but
the potential customer may have additional, more onerous requirements.  These
would be a contractual matter between the two.

 

So, Class A may be acceptable for placing on the market under the EMC
Directive for appropriate locations/environments, but the customer may state a
requirement Class B, in his invitation to tender.

 

…  and yes, I was also a member of ETSI EE4 a long, long time ago …

 

Best wishes

 

Brian  

 

Brian Jones

EMC Consultant and Competent Body signatory

 

 

  _  

From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Mike Hurley
Sent: 09 June 2006 17:38
To: 'McInturff Gary'; 'David Heald'; 'David Gelfand'
Cc: emc-p...@ieee.org
Subject: RE: EN 301 489-1 emissions question - Euro telecom center A or B
classification?

 

Gary,

 

Your recollection is correct, Telecom centres were indeed Class B in Europe.  
 It took us several years in the ETSI EE4 committee to get it changed to class
A and even then it was by the somewhat devious means of removing emission
limits from EN300 386 and instead referencing directly to EN55022.   There are
probably a few emc-pstc folk who remember the struggle.

 

Mike


From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of McInturff Gary
Sent: 09 June 2006 15:50
To: David Heald; David Gelfand
Cc: emc-p...@ieee.org
Subject: RE: EN 301 489-1 emissions question - Euro telecom center A or B
classification?

 

Same question haunts me – I have a vague recollection that for some odd
reason European telecommunications centers were Class B but I can’t find the
reference. Maybe the distinction is “telecommunication centers ONLY” So
I’m also interested in the answer if some one has it.

Thanks

Gary

 

  _  

From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of David Heald
Sent: Friday, June 09, 2006 7:04 AM
To: David Gelfand
Cc: emc-p...@ieee.org
Subject: Re: EN 301 489-1 emissions question

 

David,

  I am quite certain that a 'telecommunications center' is a central office. 
But, before just assuming that Class A is ok for telecom centers, I'd check
with the telecom company to be sure that they don't have a requirement for
Class B (I have this gut feel that I've run into that but I can't remember any
specifics). 

 

Best Regards

-Dave

 

On 6/9/06, David Gelfand  wrote: 

I need help from our esteemed CE mark experts!

EMC radio equipment standard EN 301 489-1 calls out EN 55022 Class B 
limits in general, and Class A limits for "...equipment intended for use
in telecommunication centres only,..."  What is considered a
"telecommunication centre?"  Unfortunately I can not find any definition 
for this term in the standard, or in any other standards I have
consulted.
mc-pstc 

-  This
message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc
discussion list. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ 

To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org 


Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html 


List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html 


For help, send mail to the list administrators: 


Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org 


For policy questions, send mail to: 


Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: emc-p...@daveheald.com 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: 


http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc -
 This message
is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list.
Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ 


To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org 


Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html 


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For help, send mail to the list administrators: 


Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org 


For policy questions, send mail to: 


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All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: 


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 This message
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Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ 


To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org 


Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html 


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For help, send mail to the list administrators: 


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All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchabl

RE: EN 301 489-1 emissions question - Euro telecom center A or B classification?

[emc-p...@ieee.org]

Gary,
 
Your recollection is correct, Telecom centres were indeed Class B in Europe.  
 It took us several years in the ETSI EE4 committee to get it changed to class
A and even then it was by the somewhat devious means of removing emission
limits from EN300 386 and instead referencing directly to EN55022.   There are
probably a few emc-pstc folk who remember the struggle.
 
Mike

From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of McInturff Gary
Sent: 09 June 2006 15:50
To: David Heald; David Gelfand
Cc: emc-p...@ieee.org
Subject: RE: EN 301 489-1 emissions question - Euro telecom center A or B
classification?
 
Same question haunts me – I have a vague recollection that for some odd
reason European telecommunications centers were Class B but I can’t find the
reference. Maybe the distinction is “telecommunication centers ONLY” So
I’m also interested in the answer if some one has it.
Thanks
Gary
 
  _  

From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of David Heald
Sent: Friday, June 09, 2006 7:04 AM
To: David Gelfand
Cc: emc-p...@ieee.org
Subject: Re: EN 301 489-1 emissions question
 
David,
  I am quite certain that a 'telecommunications center' is a central office. 
But, before just assuming that Class A is ok for telecom centers, I'd check
with the telecom company to be sure that they don't have a requirement for
Class B (I have this gut feel that I've run into that but I can't remember any
specifics). 
 
Best Regards
-Dave

 
On 6/9/06, David Gelfand  wrote: 
I need help from our esteemed CE mark experts!

EMC radio equipment standard EN 301 489-1 calls out EN 55022 Class B 
limits in general, and Class A limits for "...equipment intended for use
in telecommunication centres only,..."  What is considered a
"telecommunication centre?"  Unfortunately I can not find any definition 
for this term in the standard, or in any other standards I have
consulted.
mc-pstc 
-  This
message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc
discussion list. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ 
To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org 

Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html 

List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html 

For help, send mail to the list administrators: 

Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org 

For policy questions, send mail to: 

Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: emc-p...@daveheald.com 

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: 

http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc -
 This message
is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list.
Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ 

To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org 

Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html 

List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html 

For help, send mail to the list administrators: 

Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org 

For policy questions, send mail to: 

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Re: EN 301 489-1 emissions question - Euro telecom center A or B classification?

[emc-p...@ieee.org]

In message 
<51b0e17d0920404a967d381039139ad0db9...@ds10965.spraycool.com>, 
McInturff Gary  writes
>I have a vague recollection that for some odd reason European 
>telecommunications centers were Class B but I can?t find the reference.

Mustn't interfere with the night guard's TV! (;-)
-- 
John Woodgate

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RE: EN 301 489-1 emissions question - Euro telecom center A or B classification?

[emc-p...@ieee.org]

Same question haunts me – I have a vague recollection that for some odd
reason European telecommunications centers were Class B but I can’t find the
reference. Maybe the distinction is “telecommunication centers ONLY” So
I’m also interested in the answer if some one has it.

Thanks

Gary

 

  _  

From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of David Heald
Sent: Friday, June 09, 2006 7:04 AM
To: David Gelfand
Cc: emc-p...@ieee.org
Subject: Re: EN 301 489-1 emissions question

 

David,

  I am quite certain that a 'telecommunications center' is a central office. 
But, before just assuming that Class A is ok for telecom centers, I'd check
with the telecom company to be sure that they don't have a requirement for
Class B (I have this gut feel that I've run into that but I can't remember any
specifics). 

 

Best Regards

-Dave

 

On 6/9/06, David Gelfand  wrote: 

I need help from our esteemed CE mark experts!

EMC radio equipment standard EN 301 489-1 calls out EN 55022 Class B 
limits in general, and Class A limits for "...equipment intended for use
in telecommunication centres only,..."  What is considered a
"telecommunication centre?"  Unfortunately I can not find any definition 
for this term in the standard, or in any other standards I have
consulted.
mc-pstc 

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RE: RF Power Amplifiers

[emc-p...@ieee.org]

Grace, 
 
I agree that trying a demonstrator before you buy is the best approach. 
 
One thing that you want to take into consideration besides the compression
points that Bob mentioned is the harmonic / distortion requirements mentioned
in section 6 of 61000-4-3. 
 
The 2006 version of IEC 61000-4-3 is a bit different than the current version
of EN 61000-4-3. 
 
IEC 61000-4-3:2006 [expected to be published as EN this year] requires that
harmonics in the uniform field area field be at least 6 dB below the
fundamental. There is a lot of good info in Annex D about how to accomplish /
measure this. 
 
The current EN 61000-4-3 requires that the amplifier not produce harmonics >
15 dB below carrier. 
 
Whichever amp you choose, make sure that you take these considerations into
account as well. 
 
Good luck!
 
Mac Elliott

  _  

From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Mowbray, John H
Sent: Thursday, June 08, 2006 3:56 PM
To: Grace Lin; emc-p...@ieee.org
Subject: RE: RF Power Amplifiers


Grace
 
For the 80-100 range the power sounds about right, but be careful many
amplifiers will ouptut reduced power if the VSWR at their output exceeds 2:1.
For the other ranges the 75 W should be more like 25-50 W, again depending on
the amplifier and VSWR.
The high frequency amplifier should be at least 30 W to account for the higher
cable losses.
 
The best approach is to try a demonstrator before you buy. I have seen
amplifiers that would only produce 1/2 of their rated output power in my test
setup.
 

John Mowbray, P. Eng.
Senior EMC Engineer
NCR Canada, Ltd.
580 Weber St. N.
Waterloo, Ontario
N2J 4G5
519 884 1710  X5371
john.mowb...@ncr.com 

 

  _  

From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Grace Lin
Sent: June 8, 2006 3:24 PM
To: emc-p...@ieee.org
Subject: RF Power Amplifiers



Dear Group Members,

 

Please help me to determine specification for RF power amplifiers for
61000-4-3 and 61000-4-6 tests.

 

I found an equation to calculate power required (ETS-Lindgren Antenna Catalog,
page 71):

 

PdB(W)  = 20 log10 (Edesired(V/m)) +20 log10 (d m) – 20 log10 (fMHz)
+AFdB(m-1) +15

 

Based on this equation, my calculated results are:

 

For 10V/m @ 3m at 80MHz by using ETS-Lindgren 3149 antenna: P(W) = 111.7018 

For 10V/m @ 3m at 80MHz by using Schaffner CBL 6140 antenna: P(W) = 22.2874 

 

For 10V/m @ 3m at 1000MHz by using ETS-Lindgren 3149 antenna: P(W) = 12.0016 

For 10V/m @ 3m at 1000MHz by using Schaffner CBL 6140 antenna:   P(W) = 7.1489

 

For 10V/m @ 3m at 1GHz by using ETS-Lindgren 3115 antenna: P(W)   = 7.1489

For 10V/m @ 3m at 4GHz by using ETS-Lindgren 3115 antenna: P(W)= 4.4681

 

Do these mean that a 150 watts amplifier is enough for the frequency range
80MHz-1000NHz, and a 10 watts' is enough for the frequency range 1-4GHz?   Is
a 75 watts' good enough for 61000-4-6 test?  Is there any other factors, such
as cable loss, etc., that I have to include in the calculation?   The
measuring system will include a dual directional coupler and a power meter.

 

I have received different recommended specifications.   Different
specifications mean different prices.   The price difference is huge between
wattages.

 

Your help is highly appreciated!

 

Best regards,

Grace Lin

Crestron Electronics, Inc.

New Jersey, USA

www.crestron.com   -
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discussion list. W

Re: EN 301 489-1 emissions question

[emc-p...@ieee.org]

David,
  I am quite certain that a 'telecommunications center' is a central office. 
But, before just assuming that Class A is ok for telecom centers, I'd check
with the telecom company to be sure that they don't have a requirement for
Class B (I have this gut feel that I've run into that but I can't remember any
specifics). 
 
Best Regards
-Dave

 
On 6/9/06, David Gelfand  wrote: 

I need help from our esteemed CE mark experts!

EMC radio equipment standard EN 301 489-1 calls out EN 55022 Class B 
limits in general, and Class A limits for "...equipment intended for use
in telecommunication centres only,..."  What is considered a
"telecommunication centre?"  Unfortunately I can not find any definition 
for this term in the standard, or in any other standards I have
consulted.

Is a point-of-sale terminal system with a rooftop antenna considered a
"telecommunication centre?"  My understanding is that EN 55022 Class B 
limits apply to residential environments, and Class A applies to
commercial and industrial environments.  I would hope in our situation
that Class A will suffice.  If not I am up the proverbial creek without
a paddle...

Thanks in advance,

David.

David Gelfand, P.E.
Product Integrity Engineer
Mitec Telecom Inc
9000 Trans-Canada Highway
Montreal QC H9R 5Z8
Canada
514 694 9000 x2262

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FW: EN 301 489-1 emissions question

[emc-p...@ieee.org]

To further clarify, it is conducted emissions that is my concern, the
unit will likely be under class B radiated limits. 


From: David Gelfand 
Sent: 9 juin 2006 09:17
To: emc-p...@ieee.org
Subject: RE: EN 301 489-1 emissions question

Let me clarify.  The item to be CE marked is an antenna-mast-mounted
VSAT rf power amplifier.  

Regards,

David.


From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Willem
Jan Jong
Sent: 9 juin 2006 09:07
To: emc-p...@ieee.org
Subject: RE: EN 301 489-1 emissions question

David,

A and B are vice versa. Class B is for general public. Class A for
industrial use.

A point-of-sale terminal can be categorized as class B !!

Kind regards,

Willem Jan Jong


From: Willem Jan Jong
Sent: vrijdag 9 juni 2006 14:57
To: 'emc-p...@ieee.org'
Subject: RE: EN 301 489-1 emissions question


David,

Class A indeed applies for products meant for the general public. Class
B products are meant for industrial users (e.g. telecom providers)
operated by occupational workers.

A point-of-sale terminal can be categorized as class A.

Kind regards,

Ir. Willem Jan Jong
Product Assessor Certification
Telefication B.V.
Edisonweg 12 A
6902 PK Zevenaar
The Netherlands
+31 (0) 316 583 165



From: David Gelfand [mailto:david.gelf...@mitectelecom.com]
Sent: vrijdag 9 juni 2006 14:25
To: emc-p...@ieee.org
Subject: EN 301 489-1 emissions question


I need help from our esteemed CE mark experts!

EMC radio equipment standard EN 301 489-1 calls out EN 55022 Class B
limits in general, and Class A limits for "...equipment intended for use
in telecommunication centres only,..."  What is considered a
"telecommunication centre?"  Unfortunately I can not find any definition
for this term in the standard, or in any other standards I have
consulted.  

Is a point-of-sale terminal system with a rooftop antenna considered a
"telecommunication centre?"  My understanding is that EN 55022 Class B
limits apply to residential environments, and Class A applies to
commercial and industrial environments.  I would hope in our situation
that Class A will suffice.  If not I am up the proverbial creek without
a paddle...

Thanks in advance,

David.

David Gelfand, P.E.
Product Integrity Engineer
Mitec Telecom Inc
9000 Trans-Canada Highway
Montreal QC H9R 5Z8
Canada
514 694 9000 x2262

-

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Re: EN 301 489-1 emissions question

[emc-p...@ieee.org]

In message 
, 
Willem Jan Jong  writes
>Class A indeed applies for products meant for the general public. Class 
>B products are meant for industrial users (e.g. telecom providers) 
>operated by occupational workers.

Surely it's the other way round. Class A is  'industrial', excluding 
'light industry', which requires Class B, along with 'commercial' and 
'residential'.

You just might be able to get a Notified Body to agree that no radio or 
TV receiver is likely to be within 10 m of your product, and thus Class 
A could be permitted.

At some point, these classes will have to  be revisited, because many 
Class A products have found their way into homes, with no obvious 
adverse consequences. Furthermore, some spectrum management authorities 
in Europe now regard the LF and MF broadcast bands as 'unprotectable' 
because of the general level of 'EMC smog', quite a lot being 
contributed by large numbers of Class B-compliant products.

In addition, because the emission limits are based on separations of 3 
m, 10 m or 30 m, there is no protection against a receiver being 
interfered with by a small SMPS only 30 cm away, maybe even its own 
power supply!
-- 
John Woodgate

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RE: EN 301 489-1 emissions question

[emc-p...@ieee.org]

Although not defined as such, telecommunication centres (Major and Minor) are
described  in section 5 of ETSI TR 101 651 (free download from www.etsi.org). 
 They generally relate to the ‘public telcoms network’
 
A ‘point-of-sale terminal system with a rooftop antenna’ would certainly
not be a ‘telecommunication centre’ in this context
 
Mike Hurley
 
Director
Mead testing ltd
Units 23/25 Mead park
River Way
Harlow
CM20 2SE
 
mikehur...@meadtest.com
www.meadtest.com
phone 44 (0) 1279 635865
fax   44 (0) 1279 635874
 
 

From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of David Gelfand
Sent: 09 June 2006 13:25
To: emc-p...@ieee.org
Subject: EN 301 489-1 emissions question
 
I need help from our esteemed CE mark experts!
 
EMC radio equipment standard EN 301 489-1 calls out EN 55022 Class B
limits in general, and Class A limits for "...equipment intended for use
in telecommunication centres only,..."  What is considered a
"telecommunication centre?"  Unfortunately I can not find any definition
for this term in the standard, or in any other standards I have
consulted.  
 
Is a point-of-sale terminal system with a rooftop antenna considered a
"telecommunication centre?"  My understanding is that EN 55022 Class B
limits apply to residential environments, and Class A applies to
commercial and industrial environments.  I would hope in our situation
that Class A will suffice.  If not I am up the proverbial creek without
a paddle...
 
Thanks in advance,
 
David.
 
David Gelfand, P.E.
Product Integrity Engineer
Mitec Telecom Inc
9000 Trans-Canada Highway
Montreal QC H9R 5Z8
Canada
514 694 9000 x2262
 
-

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RE: EN 301 489-1 emissions question

[emc-p...@ieee.org]

Let me clarify.  The item to be CE marked is an antenna-mast-mounted
VSAT rf power amplifier.  

Regards,

David.


From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Willem
Jan Jong
Sent: 9 juin 2006 09:07
To: emc-p...@ieee.org
Subject: RE: EN 301 489-1 emissions question

David,

A and B are vice versa. Class B is for general public. Class A for
industrial use.

A point-of-sale terminal can be categorized as class B !!

Kind regards,

Willem Jan Jong


From: Willem Jan Jong
Sent: vrijdag 9 juni 2006 14:57
To: 'emc-p...@ieee.org'
Subject: RE: EN 301 489-1 emissions question


David,

Class A indeed applies for products meant for the general public. Class
B products are meant for industrial users (e.g. telecom providers)
operated by occupational workers.

A point-of-sale terminal can be categorized as class A.

Kind regards,

Ir. Willem Jan Jong
Product Assessor Certification
Telefication B.V.
Edisonweg 12 A
6902 PK Zevenaar
The Netherlands
+31 (0) 316 583 165



From: David Gelfand [mailto:david.gelf...@mitectelecom.com]
Sent: vrijdag 9 juni 2006 14:25
To: emc-p...@ieee.org
Subject: EN 301 489-1 emissions question


I need help from our esteemed CE mark experts!

EMC radio equipment standard EN 301 489-1 calls out EN 55022 Class B
limits in general, and Class A limits for "...equipment intended for use
in telecommunication centres only,..."  What is considered a
"telecommunication centre?"  Unfortunately I can not find any definition
for this term in the standard, or in any other standards I have
consulted.  

Is a point-of-sale terminal system with a rooftop antenna considered a
"telecommunication centre?"  My understanding is that EN 55022 Class B
limits apply to residential environments, and Class A applies to
commercial and industrial environments.  I would hope in our situation
that Class A will suffice.  If not I am up the proverbial creek without
a paddle...

Thanks in advance,

David.

David Gelfand, P.E.
Product Integrity Engineer
Mitec Telecom Inc
9000 Trans-Canada Highway
Montreal QC H9R 5Z8
Canada
514 694 9000 x2262

-

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RE: EN 301 489-1 emissions question

[emc-p...@ieee.org]

David,

A and B are vice versa. Class B is for general public. Class A for industrial
use.

A point-of-sale terminal can be categorized as class B !!

Kind regards,

Willem Jan Jong


From: Willem Jan Jong 
Sent: vrijdag 9 juni 2006 14:57
To: 'emc-p...@ieee.org'
Subject: RE: EN 301 489-1 emissions question


David,

Class A indeed applies for products meant for the general public. Class B
products are meant for industrial users (e.g. telecom providers) operated by
occupational workers.

A point-of-sale terminal can be categorized as class A.

Kind regards,

Ir. Willem Jan Jong
Product Assessor Certification
Telefication B.V.
Edisonweg 12 A
6902 PK Zevenaar
The Netherlands
+31 (0) 316 583 165



From: David Gelfand [mailto:david.gelf...@mitectelecom.com]
Sent: vrijdag 9 juni 2006 14:25
To: emc-p...@ieee.org
Subject: EN 301 489-1 emissions question


I need help from our esteemed CE mark experts!

EMC radio equipment standard EN 301 489-1 calls out EN 55022 Class B
limits in general, and Class A limits for "...equipment intended for use
in telecommunication centres only,..."  What is considered a
"telecommunication centre?"  Unfortunately I can not find any definition
for this term in the standard, or in any other standards I have
consulted.  

Is a point-of-sale terminal system with a rooftop antenna considered a
"telecommunication centre?"  My understanding is that EN 55022 Class B
limits apply to residential environments, and Class A applies to
commercial and industrial environments.  I would hope in our situation
that Class A will suffice.  If not I am up the proverbial creek without
a paddle...

Thanks in advance,

David.

David Gelfand, P.E.
Product Integrity Engineer
Mitec Telecom Inc
9000 Trans-Canada Highway
Montreal QC H9R 5Z8
Canada
514 694 9000 x2262

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RE: EN 301 489-1 emissions question

[emc-p...@ieee.org]

David,

Class A indeed applies for products meant for the general public. Class B
products are meant for industrial users (e.g. telecom providers) operated by
occupational workers.

A point-of-sale terminal can be categorized as class A.

Kind regards,

Ir. Willem Jan Jong
Product Assessor Certification
Telefication B.V.
Edisonweg 12 A
6902 PK Zevenaar
The Netherlands
+31 (0) 316 583 165



From: David Gelfand [mailto:david.gelf...@mitectelecom.com]
Sent: vrijdag 9 juni 2006 14:25
To: emc-p...@ieee.org
Subject: EN 301 489-1 emissions question


I need help from our esteemed CE mark experts!

EMC radio equipment standard EN 301 489-1 calls out EN 55022 Class B
limits in general, and Class A limits for "...equipment intended for use
in telecommunication centres only,..."  What is considered a
"telecommunication centre?"  Unfortunately I can not find any definition
for this term in the standard, or in any other standards I have
consulted.  

Is a point-of-sale terminal system with a rooftop antenna considered a
"telecommunication centre?"  My understanding is that EN 55022 Class B
limits apply to residential environments, and Class A applies to
commercial and industrial environments.  I would hope in our situation
that Class A will suffice.  If not I am up the proverbial creek without
a paddle...

Thanks in advance,

David.

David Gelfand, P.E.
Product Integrity Engineer
Mitec Telecom Inc
9000 Trans-Canada Highway
Montreal QC H9R 5Z8
Canada
514 694 9000 x2262

-

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 David Heald:emc-p...@daveheald.com

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EN 301 489-1 emissions question

[emc-p...@ieee.org]

I need help from our esteemed CE mark experts!

EMC radio equipment standard EN 301 489-1 calls out EN 55022 Class B
limits in general, and Class A limits for "...equipment intended for use
in telecommunication centres only,..."  What is considered a
"telecommunication centre?"  Unfortunately I can not find any definition
for this term in the standard, or in any other standards I have
consulted.  

Is a point-of-sale terminal system with a rooftop antenna considered a
"telecommunication centre?"  My understanding is that EN 55022 Class B
limits apply to residential environments, and Class A applies to
commercial and industrial environments.  I would hope in our situation
that Class A will suffice.  If not I am up the proverbial creek without
a paddle...

Thanks in advance,

David.

David Gelfand, P.E.
Product Integrity Engineer
Mitec Telecom Inc
9000 Trans-Canada Highway
Montreal QC H9R 5Z8
Canada
514 694 9000 x2262

-

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emc-pstc discussion list.Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/

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 Scott Douglas   emcp...@ptcnh.net
 Mike Cantwell   mcantw...@ieee.org

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 David Heald:emc-p...@daveheald.com

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:

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RE: New Machinery Directive now published

[emc-p...@ieee.org]

Ian,

There's a summary of the proposed changes on our web site at:

http://www.conformance.co.uk/ce_marking/ce_machinprop.php

This is based on the common position text and I have not had time to 
cross reference to the published Directive yet. I'm going to try to 
get this done in the next week or so, so check back in a few days.

Nick.




At 8:57 am +0100 9/6/06, Gordon,Ian wrote:
>Nick
>Do you know of any documents available highlighting the changes between the
>old and new versions?
>
>Ian Gordon
>

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RE: New Machinery Directive now published

[emc-p...@ieee.org]

Nick
Do you know of any documents available highlighting the changes between the
old and new versions?

Ian Gordon

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RE: RF Power Amplifiers

[emc-p...@ieee.org]

All,
 
It might also be necessary to look at the VSWR or match of the intervening
connections between the antenna and amplifier.
The VSWR of the antenna is taken into account when the gain is measured.
However, the match at the cable connector interface and, where used, the
bulkhead connector may reduce the power delivered to the antenna. Standard
match calculations need to be applied to be certain of sufficient power.
 
Regards
Tim

  _  

From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Mowbray, John H
Sent: 08 June 2006 20:56
To: Grace Lin; emc-p...@ieee.org
Subject: RE: RF Power Amplifiers


*** WARNING ***

This mail has originated outside your organization,
either from an external partner or the Global Internet. 
Keep this in mind if you answer this message. 

Grace
 
For the 80-100 range the power sounds about right, but be careful many
amplifiers will ouptut reduced power if the VSWR at their output exceeds 2:1.
For the other ranges the 75 W should be more like 25-50 W, again depending on
the amplifier and VSWR.
The high frequency amplifier should be at least 30 W to account for the higher
cable losses.
 
The best approach is to try a demonstrator before you buy. I have seen
amplifiers that would only produce 1/2 of their rated output power in my test
setup.
 

John Mowbray, P. Eng.
Senior EMC Engineer
NCR Canada, Ltd.
580 Weber St. N.
Waterloo, Ontario
N2J 4G5
519 884 1710  X5371
john.mowb...@ncr.com 

 

  _  

From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Grace Lin
Sent: June 8, 2006 3:24 PM
To: emc-p...@ieee.org
Subject: RF Power Amplifiers



Dear Group Members,

 

Please help me to determine specification for RF power amplifiers for
61000-4-3 and 61000-4-6 tests.

 

I found an equation to calculate power required (ETS-Lindgren Antenna Catalog,
page 71):

 

PdB(W)  = 20 log10 (Edesired(V/m)) +20 log10 (d m) – 20 log10 (fMHz)
+AFdB(m-1) +15

 

Based on this equation, my calculated results are:

 

For 10V/m @ 3m at 80MHz by using ETS-Lindgren 3149 antenna: P(W) = 111.7018 

For 10V/m @ 3m at 80MHz by using Schaffner CBL 6140 antenna: P(W) = 22.2874 

 

For 10V/m @ 3m at 1000MHz by using ETS-Lindgren 3149 antenna: P(W) = 12.0016 

For 10V/m @ 3m at 1000MHz by using Schaffner CBL 6140 antenna:   P(W) = 7.1489

 

For 10V/m @ 3m at 1GHz by using ETS-Lindgren 3115 antenna: P(W)   = 7.1489

For 10V/m @ 3m at 4GHz by using ETS-Lindgren 3115 antenna: P(W)= 4.4681

 

Do these mean that a 150 watts amplifier is enough for the frequency range
80MHz-1000NHz, and a 10 watts' is enough for the frequency range 1-4GHz?   Is
a 75 watts' good enough for 61000-4-6 test?  Is there any other factors, such
as cable loss, etc., that I have to include in the calculation?   The
measuring system will include a dual directional coupler and a power meter.

 

I have received different recommended specifications.   Different
specifications mean different prices.   The price difference is huge between
wattages.

 

Your help is highly appreciated!

 

Best regards,

Grace Lin

Crestron Electronics, Inc.

New Jersey, USA

www.crestron.com   -
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New Machinery Directive now published

[emc-p...@ieee.org]

"DIRECTIVE 2006/42/EC OF THE EUROPEAN PARLIAMENT AND OF THE COUNCIL 
of 17 May 2006 on machinery, and amending Directive 95/16/EC (recast)"

is published in today's OJ(L)

Regards

Nick.

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RE: RF Power Amplifiers

[emc-p...@ieee.org]

Return Receipt 


Your document:

RE: RF Power Amplifiers 


was received by:

Jan Vercammen/AMEMV/AGFA


at:

2006-06-09 09:20:45 
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