Re: [PSES] Type plate requirements in Canada - CSA approval?

2011-11-14 Thread John Allen
Peter

 

That is understood as the overall product standard applies (I do not have the 
CSA version of 60950-22), but it was only a hypothetical question, based on the 
original one – see the exchange of emails with John R Allen at Product Safety 
Inc.

 

Regards

 

John Allen

London, UK

 

From: Peter Merguerian [mailto:pmerguerian2...@yahoo.com] 
Sent: 13 November 2011 23:47
To: John Allen
Cc: Michael Loerzer; IEEE PSES
Subject: Re: Type plate requirements in Canada - CSA approval?

 

 

John

 

For these type of applications you must check if 60950-22 has specific marking 
requirements or refers to another CSA standard for marking and labeling system.

 

Peter Merguerian

pe...@goglobalcompliance.com

Go Global Compliance Inc.

www.goglobalcompliance.com

(408) 931-3303



Sent from my iPhone


On Nov 13, 2011, at 2:08 AM, John Allen john_e_al...@blueyonder.co.uk wrote:

Peter

 

60950-1 is for equipment intended for use in very “benign” environments – so 
what about IT for other environments where the conditions are more onerous 
(e.g. 6950-22 for outdoor environments) ?

 

Regards

 

John Allen

London, UK

 

From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Peter Merguerian
Sent: 13 November 2011 04:14
To: Michael Loerzer
Cc: IEEE PSES
Subject: Re: Type plate requirements in Canada - CSA approval?

 

Michael,

 

Labels do not have to be approved but if not approved and suitable for the 
intended application will have to be separately evaluated depending on the 
standard.  For ITE that means the label must  rubbed with alcohol and water 
according to the Markings test in the CSA 60950-1 standard. 

 

By the way, I have encountered labels that have been CSA certified for the 
system ( label, adhesive and ink ) and had problem passing the 60950-1 markings 
test.

 

Peter Merguerian

pe...@goglobalcompliance.com

Go Global Compliance Inc.

www.goglobalcompliance.com

(408) 931-3303

 

Sent from my iPhone


On Nov 11, 2011, at 10:14 AM, Michael Loerzer loerzer_mob...@globalnorm.de 
wrote:

Hello,

 

A customer presumes that in Canada type plates as sticker shall be CSA approved.

 

Who has a cross reference? Is that a requirement of the “CEC” or of a CSA 
standard?

 

Any information (weblinks, standards refererences) are welcome.

 

Best regards

 

Dipl.-Ing. Michael Loerzer

Managing Director
Regulatory Affairs Specialist

 

Das neue Buch zum Thema Product Compliance: 
http://www.beuth.de/sc/produktkonformitaet (Produktkonformität, Prozesse, 
Risikomanagement, CE-Kennzeichnung, Fallbeispiele für Geschäftsführung, 
Konstruktion, Normenabteilung, Vertrieb, Einkauf, Produktion, QM)

 

_

Globalnorm GmbH

Alt-Moabit 94

10559 Berlin

 

Fon +49 30 3229027-51

Mobile +49 170 3229027

Fax +49 30 3229027-59

Mailmichael.loer...@globalnorm.de

 

 http://www.globalnorm.de/ www.globalnorm.de

 http://www.globalnorm.ca/ www.globalnorm.ca

 http://www.product-compliance.com/ www.product-compliance.com

 

_

Globalnorm GmbH, Sitz der Gesellschaft: Alt-Moabit 94, 10559 Berlin

Geschäftsführer: Dipl.-Ing. Michael Loerzer

Amtsgericht Berlin-Charlottenburg HRB 105204 B, USt-ID-Nummer: DE251654448

 

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[PSES] Searching for a relay that can withstand IEC 60079-15 sealing requirements

2011-11-14 Thread N.Shani
Hello all,

I wonder if someone can point me to a supplier who tested and passed
(successfully!) the pre-conditioning requirements and bubble test in IEC
60079-15 for component sealing. The specific pre-conditioning is as follows:

   - 33.3.2.1: thermal endurance to heat is determined by submitting the
   enclosure or parts of enclosures in non-metallic materials to continuous
   storage for 4 weeks in an ambient of 90±5% relative humidity and at a
   temperature of 10C above max operating temp (70+10=80 in our case)
   - 33.5.3.2: test samples at an initial temperature of (25 ± 2) °C, they
   are suddenly immersed in water at a temperature of (65 ± 2) °C to a depth
   of 25 mm for 1 min. If no bubbles emerge from the samples during this test,
   they are considered to be sealed for the purposes of this standard


The relay should be similar (form factor) to Omron G6S, NEC EC2 or NAIS TX2.

Cheers,
N. Shani
Ottawa, ON

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[PSES] AW: Type plate requirements in Canada - CSA approval?

2011-11-14 Thread Michael Loerzer
Hi,

 

thanks for all input.

 

I have read a handbook for UL/CSA approbals published by a Siemens approval 
engineer. He describes that manufacturers of type plates as “sticker” (for 
gluing) requires a UL-/CSA approval (UL-recognized, CSA-accepted).

 

CSA has an additional requirement: CSA-approved stickers for gluing shall 
include an identification label of the manufacturer.

 

That was a general statement in this handbook (not for a specific 
UL-/CSA-standard).

 

Best regards

 

Dipl.-Ing. Michael Loerzer

Managing Director
Regulatory Affairs Specialist

 

Das neue Buch zum Thema Product Compliance: 
http://www.beuth.de/sc/produktkonformitaet (Produktkonformität, Prozesse, 
Risikomanagement, CE-Kennzeichnung, Fallbeispiele für Geschäftsführung, 
Konstruktion, Normenabteilung, Vertrieb, Einkauf, Produktion, QM)

 

_

Globalnorm GmbH

Alt-Moabit 94

10559 Berlin

 

Fon +49 30 3229027-51

Mobile +49 170 3229027

Fax +49 30 3229027-59

Mailmichael.loer...@globalnorm.de

 

 http://www.globalnorm.de/ www.globalnorm.de

 http://www.globalnorm.ca/ www.globalnorm.ca

 http://www.product-compliance.com/ www.product-compliance.com

 

_

Globalnorm GmbH, Sitz der Gesellschaft: Alt-Moabit 94, 10559 Berlin

Geschäftsführer: Dipl.-Ing. Michael Loerzer

Amtsgericht Berlin-Charlottenburg HRB 105204 B, USt-ID-Nummer: DE251654448

 

Von: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] Im Auftrag von John Allen
Gesendet: Montag, 14. November 2011 09:14
An: 'Peter Merguerian'
Cc: 'Michael Loerzer'; 'IEEE PSES'
Betreff: RE: Type plate requirements in Canada - CSA approval?

 

Peter

 

That is understood as the overall product standard applies (I do not have the 
CSA version of 60950-22), but it was only a hypothetical question, based on the 
original one – see the exchange of emails with John R Allen at Product Safety 
Inc.

 

Regards

 

John Allen

London, UK

 

From: Peter Merguerian [mailto:pmerguerian2...@yahoo.com] 
Sent: 13 November 2011 23:47
To: John Allen
Cc: Michael Loerzer; IEEE PSES
Subject: Re: Type plate requirements in Canada - CSA approval?

 

 

John

 

For these type of applications you must check if 60950-22 has specific marking 
requirements or refers to another CSA standard for marking and labeling system.

 

Peter Merguerian

pe...@goglobalcompliance.com

Go Global Compliance Inc.

www.goglobalcompliance.com

(408) 931-3303



Sent from my iPhone


On Nov 13, 2011, at 2:08 AM, John Allen john_e_al...@blueyonder.co.uk wrote:

Peter

 

60950-1 is for equipment intended for use in very “benign” environments – so 
what about IT for other environments where the conditions are more onerous 
(e.g. 6950-22 for outdoor environments) ?

 

Regards

 

John Allen

London, UK

 

From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Peter Merguerian
Sent: 13 November 2011 04:14
To: Michael Loerzer
Cc: IEEE PSES
Subject: Re: Type plate requirements in Canada - CSA approval?

 

Michael,

 

Labels do not have to be approved but if not approved and suitable for the 
intended application will have to be separately evaluated depending on the 
standard.  For ITE that means the label must  rubbed with alcohol and water 
according to the Markings test in the CSA 60950-1 standard. 

 

By the way, I have encountered labels that have been CSA certified for the 
system ( label, adhesive and ink ) and had problem passing the 60950-1 markings 
test.

 

Peter Merguerian

pe...@goglobalcompliance.com

Go Global Compliance Inc.

www.goglobalcompliance.com

(408) 931-3303

 

Sent from my iPhone


On Nov 11, 2011, at 10:14 AM, Michael Loerzer loerzer_mob...@globalnorm.de 
wrote:

Hello,

 

A customer presumes that in Canada type plates as sticker shall be CSA approved.

 

Who has a cross reference? Is that a requirement of the “CEC” or of a CSA 
standard?

 

Any information (weblinks, standards refererences) are welcome.

 

Best regards

 

Dipl.-Ing. Michael Loerzer

Managing Director
Regulatory Affairs Specialist

 

Das neue Buch zum Thema Product Compliance: 
http://www.beuth.de/sc/produktkonformitaet (Produktkonformität, Prozesse, 
Risikomanagement, CE-Kennzeichnung, Fallbeispiele für Geschäftsführung, 
Konstruktion, Normenabteilung, Vertrieb, Einkauf, Produktion, QM)

 

_

Globalnorm GmbH

Alt-Moabit 94

10559 Berlin

 

Fon +49 30 3229027-51

Mobile +49 170 3229027

Fax +49 30 3229027-59

Mailmichael.loer...@globalnorm.de

 

 http://www.globalnorm.de/ www.globalnorm.de

 http://www.globalnorm.ca/ www.globalnorm.ca

 http://www.product-compliance.com/ www.product-compliance.com

 

_

Globalnorm GmbH, Sitz der Gesellschaft: Alt-Moabit 94, 10559 Berlin

Geschäftsführer: Dipl.-Ing. Michael Loerzer

Amtsgericht Berlin-Charlottenburg HRB 105204 B, USt-ID-Nummer: DE251654448

 


Re: [PSES] Type plate requirements in Canada - CSA approval?

2011-11-14 Thread McInturff, Gary
UL and CSA do have recognized or certified labeling systems which involve the 
paper, ink, and adhesive for the material upon which it is applied. The CB 
folks don't trust it and we have to have a sample tested every time. Not than 
being annoyed in having to send a sample every time I haven't run into a 
problem.


m: John Allen [mailto:john_e_al...@blueyonder.co.uk]
Sent: Saturday, November 12, 2011 12:50 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Type plate requirements in Canada - CSA approval?

AFAIK from earlier extensive experience with both CSA and UL, this is a 
requirement applied across the board for self-adhesive labels to be fitted to 
Certified/Listed equipments.

The reason is quite simply that many label-materials will not adhere firmly to 
many types of enclosure material and/or will not remain there under the 
foreseen environmental conditions in which they will be used! Also, use of the 
incorrect combinations of base-materials, adhesives and/or printing methods can 
result in labels which are not fit for the purposes for which they are used.

Therefore both organisations have extensive Recognition/Acceptance programs to 
assess the label base-materials, printing methods (inks can smudge/wash-off)  
and final-manufacturing methods to ensure that only the correct labels are used 
for the equipment application in question. To confirm this, just do a search on 
their own websites and/or those of large label-material / printing equipment 
suppliers.

BTW: From that earlier experience (and including some personal experience of 
where the use of the wrong inks have resulted in smudging!), I have always 
wondered why this type of requirement is not far more widespread throughout the 
World than it is - it should be!!

John Allen
London, UK

From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Michael Loerzer
Sent: 11 November 2011 18:14
To: IEEE PSES
Subject: Type plate requirements in Canada - CSA approval?

Hello,

A customer presumes that in Canada type plates as sticker shall be CSA approved.

Who has a cross reference? Is that a requirement of the CEC or of a CSA 
standard?

Any information (weblinks, standards refererences) are welcome.

Best regards

Dipl.-Ing. Michael Loerzer
Managing Director
Regulatory Affairs Specialist

Das neue Buch zum Thema Product Compliance: 
http://www.beuth.de/sc/produktkonformitaet (Produktkonformität, Prozesse, 
Risikomanagement, CE-Kennzeichnung, Fallbeispiele für Geschäftsführung, 
Konstruktion, Normenabteilung, Vertrieb, Einkauf, Produktion, QM)

_
Globalnorm GmbH
Alt-Moabit 94
10559 Berlin

Fon +49 30 3229027-51
Mobile +49 170 3229027
Fax +49 30 3229027-59
Mailmichael.loer...@globalnorm.demailto:michael.loer...@globalnorm.de

www.globalnorm.dehttp://www.globalnorm.de/
www.globalnorm.cahttp://www.globalnorm.ca/
www.product-compliance.comhttp://www.product-compliance.com/

_
Globalnorm GmbH, Sitz der Gesellschaft: Alt-Moabit 94, 10559 Berlin
Geschäftsführer: Dipl.-Ing. Michael Loerzer
Amtsgericht Berlin-Charlottenburg HRB 105204 B, USt-ID-Nummer: DE251654448


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[PSES] ITAR scope

2011-11-14 Thread Brian Oconnell
Previously, have done the ITAR forms as 'not required' 'not applicable'.
Current customer, whom has much experience dealing with this, says the 8MHz
microprocessor with an embedded 400kHz analog-to-digital converter puts
device within scope. I cannot find anything in 22 CFR parts 120 and 121 to
support this. Is this more ad-hoc Dept of State regulation weirdness?

Who knows what nefarious security problems could result if a 20watt power
converter was used by known enemies of the state. I probably should be
concerned if our capitalist AC was converted to marxist/extremist DC power.

Brian

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Re: [PSES] ITAR scope

2011-11-14 Thread John Woodgate
In message f014332fd18a4c749c3ed712650e0...@tamuracorp.com, dated Mon, 
14 Nov 2011, Brian Oconnell oconne...@tamuracorp.com writes:


I probably should be concerned if our capitalist AC was converted to 
marxist/extremist DC power.


Teslacity will always overcome Edisonism. (;-)
--
OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk
John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK
I was thinking of learning beer-making, but since I like honey, I chose meadier
studies.

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Re: [PSES] MOV requirements

2011-11-14 Thread Ralph . McDiarmid
Does the industry really need another standard, I wonder? 
_
 


Ralph McDiarmid  |   Schneider Electric   |  Renewable Energies Business | 
  CANADA  |   Regulatory Compliance Engineering 




From:
John Woodgate j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk
To:
EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Date:
11/11/2011 06:48 AM
Subject:
Re: [PSES] MOV requirements



In message 4ebd2d05.5050...@ieee.org, dated Fri, 11 Nov 2011, Mick 
Maytum m.j.may...@ieee.org writes:

MOV, Varistor, VDR; Metal-Oxide Varistor are all names for a 
voltage-limiting component using a particular technology.

I think this 'particular technology' is an important point. As I 
understand it, devices like Transorbs (TM?) are quite different from 
MOVs, being avalanche diodes with a very high thermal capacity. They 
seem to be rarely used (cost?) but have desirable characteristics (like 
not exploding!). Are there relevant standards?
-- 
OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk
John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK
Some people who are peeling the finch of the financial crisis are thinking 
of
biting a rook.

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[PSES] CE marking of deep-fat fryer

2011-11-14 Thread Pete Perkins
PSNet,

Looking for input on requirements for CE marking of a commercial
deep-fat fryer.  

What's the latest?  

:) br, Pete
 
Peter E Perkins, PE
Principal Product Safety Engineer
PO Box 23427
Tigard, ORe  97281-3427
 
503/452-1201 fone/fax
p.perk...@ieee.org
 

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Re: [PSES] MOV requirements

2011-11-14 Thread Brian Oconnell
To further abuse a meme - moar standards! [insert troll-face here]

Another member has previously commented that there a several type of
components used to arrest a surge. For the purpose of my OP, was focused on
a MOV-type SPD as defined under UL CCNs VZCA2 and VZCA8, where the effective
standards are UL1449 and CSA C233.1, and various CSA TILs. And of course,
the wondrous IEC61051-2. This is another case where EMC requirements
(61000-4-5,6) can affect product safety. Last year's update to the 2d ed of
60950-1 for my component power supplies was, for some models, quite an
adventure.

A problem NOT ADDRESSED by TC108 is the increased energy AFTER a surge, or
during a SFC, due to the 120% rating requirement. Perhaps this was a
principal intent of UL1449 3d ed - verify that the high E and I do not make
the MOV puke it guts and start a fire. There are many sources of increased
energy - my two problem children are the effects of an inductive kick to the
circuit being 'protected' by the SPD *after* the current interrupt device
has opened; and the higher voltage (CV^2), during a surge, at which the SPD
will start conducting.

As for GDTs - they take longer to get to low Z. And zener-type arrestors do
not have a sharp knee at the conduction level. The ZnO MOV seems to be the
best chance of survival, assuming the other  circuit components can handle
much higher coulombs running around before clamping.


Moar standards! Moar unintended effects! Moarrr

Brian

-Original Message-
From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org]On Behalf Of
ralph.mcdiar...@schneider-electric.com
Sent: Monday, November 14, 2011 11:31 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] MOV requirements

Does the industry really need another standard, I wonder?

Ralph McDiarmid  |   Schneider Electric   |  Renewable Energies Business  |
CANADA  |   Regulatory Compliance Engineering


From: John Woodgate j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Date: 11/11/2011 06:48 AM
Subject: Re: [PSES] MOV requirements

In message 4ebd2d05.5050...@ieee.org, dated Fri, 11 Nov 2011, Mick
Maytum m.j.may...@ieee.org writes:

MOV, Varistor, VDR; Metal-Oxide Varistor are all names for a
voltage-limiting component using a particular technology.

I think this 'particular technology' is an important point. As I
understand it, devices like Transorbs (TM?) are quite different from
MOVs, being avalanche diodes with a very high thermal capacity. They
seem to be rarely used (cost?) but have desirable characteristics (like
not exploding!). Are there relevant standards?
--
OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk
John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK

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Re: [PSES] CE marking of deep-fat fryer

2011-11-14 Thread Nick Williams
Hi Pete,

By commercial, do you mean for use in a restaurant or retail (take away) 
environment or in a food factory?

Is it gas heated or electric?

Any powered moving parts?

Nick. 


On 14 Nov 2011, at 21:00, Pete Perkins wrote:

 PSNet,
 
   Looking for input on requirements for CE marking of a commercial
 deep-fat fryer.  
 
   What's the latest?  
 
 :) br, Pete
 
 

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Re: [PSES] CE marking of deep-fat fryer

2011-11-14 Thread John Woodgate
In message AB6009628A08455FAACB848DCB89BA9E@Pete97219Compaq, dated 
Mon, 14 Nov 2011, Pete Perkins peperkin...@cs.com writes:



  Looking for input on requirements for CE marking of a commercial
deep-fat fryer.

  What's the latest?


IEC 60335-2-13
Edition 6.0 (2009-12-14)
Household and similar electrical appliances - Safety - Part 2-13: 
Particular requirements for deep fat fryers, frying pans and similar 
appliances


This is mainly aimed at household appliances, but SC61E hasn't got round 
to making a separate standard for commercial appliances.

--
OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk
John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK
Some people who are peeling the finch of the financial crisis are thinking of
biting a rook.

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Re: [PSES] CE marking of deep-fat fryer

2011-11-14 Thread Ted Eckert
If the fryer is used by laymen, IEC 60335-2-13 is likely the correct standard.  
Its scope includes the following text.

Appliances intended for normal household and similar use and that may also be 
used by laymen in shops, in light industry and on farms are within the scope of 
this standard. However, if the appliance is intended to be used professionally 
to process food for commercial consumption, the appliance is not considered to 
be for household and similar use only.

This would appear to cover deep-fat fryers used in restaurants and shops, but 
not food processing plants.

Ted Eckert
Compliance Engineer
Microsoft Corporation
ted.eck...@microsoft.com

The opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of my 
employer.

-Original Message-
From: John Woodgate [mailto:j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk] 
Sent: Monday, November 14, 2011 2:15 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: CE marking of deep-fat fryer

In message AB6009628A08455FAACB848DCB89BA9E@Pete97219Compaq, dated Mon, 14 
Nov 2011, Pete Perkins peperkin...@cs.com writes:

   Looking for input on requirements for CE marking of a commercial 
deep-fat fryer.

   What's the latest?

IEC 60335-2-13
Edition 6.0 (2009-12-14)
Household and similar electrical appliances - Safety - Part 2-13: 
Particular requirements for deep fat fryers, frying pans and similar appliances

This is mainly aimed at household appliances, but SC61E hasn't got round to 
making a separate standard for commercial appliances.
--
OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk John 
Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK Some people who are 
peeling the finch of the financial crisis are thinking of biting a rook.

-

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Re: [PSES] CE marking of deep-fat fryer

2011-11-14 Thread dougp01

Never heard of this in Europe, for N.A. look at this video.

http://www.ul.com/global/eng/pages/offerings/perspectives/consumer/productsafety/turkeys/


 doug powell

-Original Message- 
From: Pete Perkins

Sent: Monday, November 14, 2011 2:00 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] CE marking of deep-fat fryer

PSNet,

Looking for input on requirements for CE marking of a commercial
deep-fat fryer.

What's the latest?

:) br, Pete

Peter E Perkins, PE
Principal Product Safety Engineer
PO Box 23427
Tigard, ORe  97281-3427

503/452-1201 fone/fax
p.perk...@ieee.org


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Re: [PSES] CE marking of deep-fat fryer

2011-11-14 Thread Nick Williams
60335-2-37 is for commercial appliances but isn't much use for gas fired or 
food factory type equipment. 

Nick. 





On 14 Nov 2011, at 22:14, John Woodgate wrote:

 In message AB6009628A08455FAACB848DCB89BA9E@Pete97219Compaq, dated Mon, 14 
 Nov 2011, Pete Perkins peperkin...@cs.com writes:
 
  Looking for input on requirements for CE marking of a commercial
 deep-fat fryer.
 
  What's the latest?
 
 IEC 60335-2-13
 Edition 6.0 (2009-12-14)
 Household and similar electrical appliances - Safety - Part 2-13: Particular 
 requirements for deep fat fryers, frying pans and similar appliances
 
 This is mainly aimed at household appliances, but SC61E hasn't got round to 
 making a separate standard for commercial appliances.
 -- 

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Re: [PSES] CE marking of deep-fat fryer

2011-11-14 Thread Ken Javor
Well, UL is a company, not the gov't. Agree the gov't has no business
certifying products, but that is water under the bridge at this point.  If
UL, as a private company, feels that a significant fraction of the potential
customer base could harm themselves using this product, then they have every
right to refrain from certifying it. That shouldn't mean that it isn't
available on the market, just that UL hasn't blessed it.
 
Ken Javor

Phone: (256) 650-5261


 From: Derek Walton lfresea...@aol.com
 Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2011 17:04:57 -0600
 To: dougp01 doug...@gmail.com
 Cc: Pete Perkins peperkin...@cs.com, EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
 Subject: Re: [PSES] CE marking of deep-fat fryer
 
 Hi Doug,
 
 I guess I find this nonsense.   ANYTHING abused looks dangerous.
 
 More examples of Nanny state control.
 
 Cheers,
 
 Derek.
 
 On 11/14/2011 4:13 PM, dougp01 wrote:
 Never heard of this in Europe, for N.A. look at this video.
 
 http://www.ul.com/global/eng/pages/offerings/perspectives/consumer/productsaf
 ety/turkeys/ 
 
 
 
  doug powell
 
 -Original Message- From: Pete Perkins
 Sent: Monday, November 14, 2011 2:00 PM
 To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
 Subject: [PSES] CE marking of deep-fat fryer
 
 PSNet,
 
 Looking for input on requirements for CE marking of a commercial
 deep-fat fryer.
 
 What's the latest?
 
 :) br, Pete
 
 Peter E Perkins, PE
 Principal Product Safety Engineer
 PO Box 23427
 Tigard, ORe  97281-3427
 
 503/452-1201 fone/fax
 p.perk...@ieee.org
 
 
 -
 
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 discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to
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Re: [PSES] CE marking of deep-fat fryer

2011-11-14 Thread Farley, John
That is a wonderful bit of propaganda put out by UL to justify their decision 
to categorically refuse to NRTL list turkey fryers as being intrinsically 
unsafe/ unable to be used safely by the general public. And yet one easily 
finds them on the shelves of Wal-Mart, Target, etc. (with no UL mark, of 
course) this time of year.  Of course, you also read of a large number of 
fires/ injuries resulting from the use of turkey fryers this time of year as 
well so UL might have a valid point...

I particularly like the UL employee lowering the frozen turkey with tongs into 
a full vat of boiling oil while wearing what appears to be a full fire-fighting 
suit including breathing apparatus.  It's just so wonderfully over-the-top.  I 
also enjoy the image of dramatically tipping over the boiling oil towards the 
camera.  Visions of the Middle Ages sure to appeal to our European friends!

It's kind of old now (it came out in 2003 or 2004) but UL was seemed quite 
pleased with it and featured it prominently on their homepage at the time if I 
recall correctly.

John P. Farley

-Original Message-
From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of dougp01
Sent: Monday, November 14, 2011 4:13 PM
To: Pete Perkins; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] CE marking of deep-fat fryer

Never heard of this in Europe, for N.A. look at this video.

http://www.ul.com/global/eng/pages/offerings/perspectives/consumer/productsafety/turkeys/


  doug powell

-Original Message-
From: Pete Perkins
Sent: Monday, November 14, 2011 2:00 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] CE marking of deep-fat fryer

PSNet,

Looking for input on requirements for CE marking of a commercial
deep-fat fryer.

What's the latest?

:) br, Pete

Peter E Perkins, PE
Principal Product Safety Engineer
PO Box 23427
Tigard, ORe  97281-3427

503/452-1201 fone/fax
p.perk...@ieee.org


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Re: [PSES] CE marking of deep-fat fryer

2011-11-14 Thread Richard Nute
These are not necessarily problems due to the fryer
itself.  Instead, the problems are due to the behavior
of the user.  

As with lawnmowers and table saws, the fryer can be
(and probably should be) designed to thwart any behavior 
shortcomings.


Rich


 -Original Message-
 From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf 
 Of Derek Walton
 Sent: Monday, November 14, 2011 3:05 PM
 To: dougp01
 Cc: Pete Perkins; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
 Subject: Re: [PSES] CE marking of deep-fat fryer
 
 
 Hi Doug,
 
 I guess I find this nonsense.   ANYTHING abused looks dangerous.
 
 More examples of Nanny state control.
 
 Cheers,
 
 Derek.
 
 On 11/14/2011 4:13 PM, dougp01 wrote:
  Never heard of this in Europe, for N.A. look at this video.
 
  
 http://www.ul.com/global/eng/pages/offerings/perspectives/cons
 umer/productsafety/turkeys/ 
 
 
 
   doug powell
 

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Re: [PSES] CE marking of deep-fat fryer

2011-11-14 Thread Rene Charton/Twn/TUV
No, I think UL has a point here.

As you can see from the Video that Turkey fryer is Gas fired, so there is
always a ingnition source present.

As far as I recall Deep Fat Fryers for home use in Europe:
- are electrically heated, with the heat source inside and protected by an
outside enclosure that is below 50 deg (i.e. can be touched by the user) it
will cool spilled oil instead of igniting it.
- all models I recall to have seen are smaller. The food to be fried it to
be put into a cage with a handle, and can at maximum hold a small chicken.
-
The deep-fat fryer shown in the UL video really seems to be too cheaply
built.
Such deep-fat fryers should always be intended for commercial use only, so
a slightly higher price should be acceptable
- There must be a better protection against tilting over
- There must be a provision that spilled oil does not reach the bottom part
of the outside of the fryer, but is instead collected in a ring attached to
the upper part of the outside

Rgds

Rene Charton





   
 Derek Walton  
 lfresearch@aol.c 
 omTo 
 Sent by:  dougp01 doug...@gmail.com 
 emc-p...@ieee.org  cc 
   Pete Perkins peperkin...@cs.com,  
   EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG  
 11/15/2011 07:04  Subject 
 AMRe: [PSES] CE marking of deep-fat   
   fryer   
   
   
   
   
   
   




Hi Doug,

I guess I find this nonsense.   ANYTHING abused looks dangerous.

More examples of Nanny state control.

Cheers,

Derek.

On 11/14/2011 4:13 PM, dougp01 wrote:
 Never heard of this in Europe, for N.A. look at this video.


http://www.ul.com/global/eng/pages/offerings/perspectives/consumer/productsafety/turkeys/




  doug powell

 -Original Message- From: Pete Perkins
 Sent: Monday, November 14, 2011 2:00 PM
 To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
 Subject: [PSES] CE marking of deep-fat fryer

 PSNet,

 Looking for input on requirements for CE marking of a commercial
 deep-fat fryer.

 What's the latest?

 :) br, Pete

 Peter E Perkins, PE
 Principal Product Safety Engineer
 PO Box 23427
 Tigard, ORe  97281-3427

 503/452-1201 fone/fax
 p.perk...@ieee.org


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Re: [PSES] CE marking of deep-fat fryer

2011-11-14 Thread Derek Walton

Hi Doug,

I guess I find this nonsense.   ANYTHING abused looks dangerous.

More examples of Nanny state control.

Cheers,

Derek.

On 11/14/2011 4:13 PM, dougp01 wrote:

Never heard of this in Europe, for N.A. look at this video.

http://www.ul.com/global/eng/pages/offerings/perspectives/consumer/productsafety/turkeys/ 




 doug powell

-Original Message- From: Pete Perkins
Sent: Monday, November 14, 2011 2:00 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] CE marking of deep-fat fryer

PSNet,

Looking for input on requirements for CE marking of a commercial
deep-fat fryer.

What's the latest?

:) br, Pete

Peter E Perkins, PE
Principal Product Safety Engineer
PO Box 23427
Tigard, ORe  97281-3427

503/452-1201 fone/fax
p.perk...@ieee.org


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Re: [PSES] MOV requirements

2011-11-14 Thread Mick Maytum

Ralph,
The answer to your question is in the US arm of your 
own company. Drop a line to James Moellmann, who has 
recently been to the IEC meetings in China and IEEE meetings 
in Florida all concerned with yet more standards on 
MOV-protected devices and equipment.


Regards
Mick

On 14/11/2011 19:30, ralph.mcdiar...@schneider-electric.com 
wrote:


Does the industry really need another standard, I wonder?
_
*
Ralph McDiarmid*  | *Schneider Electric **  |  Renewable 
Energies Business*  | *CANADA*  | *Regulatory Compliance 
Engineering*




From:   John Woodgate j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Date:   11/11/2011 06:48 AM
Subject:Re: [PSES] MOV requirements






In message 4ebd2d05.5050...@ieee.org, dated Fri, 11 Nov 
2011, Mick

Maytum m.j.may...@ieee.org writes:

MOV, Varistor, VDR; Metal-Oxide Varistor are all names for a
voltage-limiting component using a particular technology.

I think this 'particular technology' is an important 
point. As I
understand it, devices like Transorbs (TM?) are quite 
different from
MOVs, being avalanche diodes with a very high thermal 
capacity. They
seem to be rarely used (cost?) but have desirable 
characteristics (like

not exploding!). Are there relevant standards?
--
OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.ukand 
www.isce.org.uk

John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK
Some people who are peeling the finch of the financial 
crisis are thinking of

biting a rook.

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Re: [PSES] CE marking of deep-fat fryer

2011-11-14 Thread Ralph . McDiarmid
I disagree.  Some devices like lawn-mowers, table-saws, snow-blowers and 
chainsaws are inherently dangerous by necessity, because of their intended 
function.  I don't know how (or whether) one needs to design a lawn-mower 
or a chainsaw to be idiot proof.  When used properly with due care and 
in accordance with its operation instructions, these devices are in fact 
quite safe.  Clearly some devices are truly not intended for use by 
anyone.
_
 


Ralph McDiarmid  |   Schneider Electric   |  Renewable Energies Business | 
  CANADA  |   Regulatory Compliance Engineering




From:
Richard Nute ri...@ieee.org
To:
EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Date:
11/14/2011 03:20 PM
Subject:
Re: [PSES] CE marking of deep-fat fryer



These are not necessarily problems due to the fryer
itself.  Instead, the problems are due to the behavior
of the user. 

As with lawnmowers and table saws, the fryer can be
(and probably should be) designed to thwart any behavior 
shortcomings.


Rich


 -Original Message-
 From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf 
 Of Derek Walton
 Sent: Monday, November 14, 2011 3:05 PM
 To: dougp01
 Cc: Pete Perkins; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
 Subject: Re: [PSES] CE marking of deep-fat fryer
 
 
 Hi Doug,
 
 I guess I find this nonsense.   ANYTHING abused looks dangerous.
 
 More examples of Nanny state control.
 
 Cheers,
 
 Derek.
 
 On 11/14/2011 4:13 PM, dougp01 wrote:
  Never heard of this in Europe, for N.A. look at this video.
 
  
 http://www.ul.com/global/eng/pages/offerings/perspectives/cons
 umer/productsafety/turkeys/ 
 
 
 
   doug powell
 

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Re: [PSES] CE marking of deep-fat fryer

2011-11-14 Thread Ralph . McDiarmid
Agreed Ken.   In fact, I'm not at all convinced that products in the USA 
or Canada require 3rd party safety blessing from an agency.  The new 
approach directive in the EU for product safety appears to work perfectly 
well without any agency involvement.  I'd like to see that approach 
adopted here, but alas with all the litigation on this side of the pond, 
it will likely never happen.  On the other hand, CSA and UL do employ a 
lot of good people.
_
 


Ralph McDiarmid  |   Schneider Electric   |  Renewable Energies Business | 
  CANADA  |   Regulatory Compliance Engineering 




From:
Ken Javor ken.ja...@emccompliance.com
To:
EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Date:
11/14/2011 03:23 PM
Subject:
Re: [PSES] CE marking of deep-fat fryer



Well, UL is a company, not the gov't. Agree the gov't has no business
certifying products, but that is water under the bridge at this point.  If
UL, as a private company, feels that a significant fraction of the 
potential
customer base could harm themselves using this product, then they have 
every
right to refrain from certifying it. That shouldn't mean that it isn't
available on the market, just that UL hasn't blessed it.
 
Ken Javor

Phone: (256) 650-5261


 From: Derek Walton lfresea...@aol.com
 Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2011 17:04:57 -0600
 To: dougp01 doug...@gmail.com
 Cc: Pete Perkins peperkin...@cs.com, EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
 Subject: Re: [PSES] CE marking of deep-fat fryer
 
 Hi Doug,
 
 I guess I find this nonsense.   ANYTHING abused looks dangerous.
 
 More examples of Nanny state control.
 
 Cheers,
 
 Derek.
 
 On 11/14/2011 4:13 PM, dougp01 wrote:
 Never heard of this in Europe, for N.A. look at this video.
 
 
http://www.ul.com/global/eng/pages/offerings/perspectives/consumer/productsaf

 ety/turkeys/ 
 
 
 
  doug powell
 
 -Original Message- From: Pete Perkins
 Sent: Monday, November 14, 2011 2:00 PM
 To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
 Subject: [PSES] CE marking of deep-fat fryer
 
 PSNet,
 
 Looking for input on requirements for CE marking of a commercial
 deep-fat fryer.
 
 What's the latest?
 
 :) br, Pete
 
 Peter E Perkins, PE
 Principal Product Safety Engineer
 PO Box 23427
 Tigard, ORe  97281-3427
 
 503/452-1201 fone/fax
 p.perk...@ieee.org
 
 
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Re: [PSES] CE marking of deep-fat fryer

2011-11-14 Thread John Woodgate
In message 4ec19e99.7060...@aol.com, dated Mon, 14 Nov 2011, Derek 
Walton lfresea...@aol.com writes:



I guess I find this nonsense.   ANYTHING abused looks dangerous.

More examples of Nanny state control.


Yes, but if they didn't do it, UL would be sued for $100 by 
everyone who sets their fryer on fyer. That may happen anyway because 
the person concerned can't read English.

--
OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk
John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK
Some people who are peeling the finch of the financial crisis are thinking of
biting a rook.

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Re: [PSES] CE marking of deep-fat fryer

2011-11-14 Thread John Woodgate
In message 
e9c52f9e77c43c49a56a22691b3680be1b1...@tk5ex14mbxc301.redmond.corp.micro
soft.com, dated Mon, 14 Nov 2011, Ted Eckert ted.eck...@microsoft.com 
writes:


If the fryer is used by laymen, IEC 60335-2-13 is likely the correct 
standard.  Its scope includes the following text.


Appliances intended for normal household and similar use and that may 
also be used by laymen in shops, in light industry and on farms are 
within the scope of this standard. However, if the appliance is 
intended to be used professionally to process food for commercial 
consumption, the appliance is not considered to be for household and 
similar use only.


This would appear to cover deep-fat fryers used in restaurants and 
shops, but not food processing plants.


Yes, BUT, as I said, SC61E hasn't got round to making a special standard 
for commercial fryers. So the 'standards route' to complying with the 
LVD in Europe is to use 60335-2-13 and include in the safety assessment 
document the reasons why that standard is applicable to your particular 
product. That can, if necessary, be supplemented by an opinion from a 
Notified Body.


A product that's safe in a home or restaurant doesn't automatically 
become unsafe if it's moved into a plant.

--
OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk
John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK
Some people who are peeling the finch of the financial crisis are thinking of
biting a rook.

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Re: [PSES] CE marking of deep-fat fryer

2011-11-14 Thread John Woodgate
In message eca7cebe-86a4-4fe8-942b-a4cecc5f6...@conformance.co.uk, 
dated Mon, 14 Nov 2011, Nick Williams nick.willi...@conformance.co.uk 
writes:


60335-2-37 is for commercial appliances but isn't much use for gas 
fired or food factory type equipment.


That's peculiar: I thought that such a standard existed but a search of 
the IEC SC61E web site didn't show it. I think I know why: the page I 
asked for didn't appear, but one that resembled it did.

--
OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk
John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK
Some people who are peeling the finch of the financial crisis are thinking of
biting a rook.

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Re: [PSES] CE marking of deep-fat fryer

2011-11-14 Thread John Woodgate
In message nyjtypaolzwof...@jmwa.demon.co.uk, dated Mon, 14 Nov 2011, 
John Woodgate j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk writes:


In message AB6009628A08455FAACB848DCB89BA9E@Pete97219Compaq, dated 
Mon, 14 Nov 2011, Pete Perkins peperkin...@cs.com writes:



  Looking for input on requirements for CE marking of a commercial
deep-fat fryer.

  What's the latest?


IEC 60335-2-13
Edition 6.0 (2009-12-14)
Household and similar electrical appliances - Safety - Part 2-13: 
Particular requirements for deep fat fryers, frying pans and similar 
appliances


This is mainly aimed at household appliances, but SC61E hasn't got 
round to making a separate standard for commercial appliances.



CORRECTION

IEC 60335-2-37 applies.
--
OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk
John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK
Some people who are peeling the finch of the financial crisis are thinking of
biting a rook.

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Re: [PSES] CE marking of deep-fat fryer

2011-11-14 Thread John Woodgate
In message eb8hcucbwgwof...@jmwa.demon.co.uk, dated Tue, 15 Nov 2011, 
John Woodgate j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk writes:


In message 
e9c52f9e77c43c49a56a22691b3680be1b1...@tk5ex14mbxc301.redmond.corp.micro
soft.com, dated Mon, 14 Nov 2011, Ted Eckert 
ted.eck...@microsoft.com writes:


If the fryer is used by laymen, IEC 60335-2-13 is likely the correct 
standard.  Its scope includes the following text.


Appliances intended for normal household and similar use and that may 
also be used by laymen in shops, in light industry and on farms are 
within the scope of this standard. However, if the appliance is 
intended to be used professionally to process food for commercial 
consumption, the appliance is not considered to be for household and 
similar use only.


This would appear to cover deep-fat fryers used in restaurants and 
shops, but not food processing plants.


Yes, BUT, as I said, SC61E hasn't got round to making a special 
standard for commercial fryers. So the 'standards route' to complying 
with the LVD in Europe is to use 60335-2-13 and include in the safety 
assessment document the reasons why that standard is applicable to your 
particular product. That can, if necessary, be supplemented by an 
opinion from a Notified Body.


CORRECTION: IEC 60335-2-37 applies


A product that's safe in a home or restaurant doesn't automatically 
become unsafe if it's moved into a plant.


This is still true.
--
OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk
John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK
Some people who are peeling the finch of the financial crisis are thinking of
biting a rook.

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