Re: [PSES] 80/80 rule
Interesting. And, no, I wasn’t there, either. I was 6 years old at the time and had never heard of CISPR then. 😊 Ghery S. Pettit From: Ari Honkala Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2019 12:09 AM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] 80/80 rule I found an interesting old document “CISPR Report of the Plenary Session held in The Hague from 18th to 21st November 1958”. It mentions a Study Question 18 (Brussels 1956): “what method should be used when applying limits for radio interference to appliances in large-scale production?” I could not find anything more on this, but it looks like a kick-off for the statistical evaluation. And no, I was not there. Regards, Ari Honkala SESKO From: Ghery S. Pettit [mailto:n6...@comcast.net] Sent: maanantai 18. marraskuuta 2019 21.50 To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG <mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> Subject: Re: [PSES] 80/80 rule I know it is in VDE 0871/6.78, so it dates back to at least June of 1978. I don’t know about anything prior to that. VDE 0871/6.78 is also the only place I’ve seen a requirement that if a single unit is tested then a 2 dB margin is required. Ghery S. Pettit iNCE Pettit EMC Consulting LLC From: John Woodgate mailto:j...@woodjohn.uk> > Sent: Monday, November 18, 2019 11:47 AM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG <mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> Subject: Re: [PSES] 80/80 rule I agree: I'm almost certain that it is German in origin, and I'm sure it dates back to the 20th Century, possibly as early as 1960. Best wishes John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only J M Woodgate and Associates www.woodjohn.uk <http://www.woodjohn.uk> Rayleigh, Essex UK On 2019-11-18 19:44, John Shinn wrote: If my memory serves me right, as I recall, the 80/80 rule was in at least one of the VDE standards regarding radiated emissions. I can’t recall the number or name. This is going back to the late ‘70s or so. John Shinn Retired Sent from my iPhone On Nov 18, 2019, at 9:55 AM, John Woodgate <mailto:j...@woodjohn.uk> wrote: Can someone tell me when the 80/80 rule was introduced into CISPR standards and if possible, a bit more detail than just the date, please? -- Best wishes John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only J M Woodgate and Associates www.woodjohn.uk <http://www.woodjohn.uk> Rayleigh, Essex UK - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org> > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) <http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html> List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas mailto:sdoug...@ieee.org> > Mike Cantwell mailto:mcantw...@ieee.org> > For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org> > David Heald mailto:dhe...@gmail.com> > - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org> > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) <http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html> List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas mailto:sdoug...@ieee.org> > Mike Cantwell mailto:mcantw...@ieee.org> > For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org> > David Heald mailto:dhe...@gmail.com> > - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org> > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large fi
Re: [PSES] 80/80 rule
Thanks, that's a very important lead.
Best wishes
John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only
J M Woodgate and Associates www.woodjohn.uk
Rayleigh, Essex UK
On 2019-11-19 08:09, Ari Honkala wrote:
I found an interesting old document “CISPR Report of the Plenary
Session held in The Hague from 18^th to 21^st November 1958”.
It mentions a Study Question 18 (Brussels 1956): “what method should
be used when applying limits for radio interference to appliances in
large-scale production?”
I could not find anything more on this, but it looks like a kick-off
for the statistical evaluation.
And no, I was not there.
Regards,
Ari Honkala
SESKO
*From:* Ghery S. Pettit [mailto:n6...@comcast.net]
*Sent:* maanantai 18. marraskuuta 2019 21.50
*To:* EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
*Subject:* Re: [PSES] 80/80 rule
I know it is in VDE 0871/6.78, so it dates back to at least June of
1978. I don’t know about anything prior to that. VDE 0871/6.78 is
also the only place I’ve seen a requirement that if a single unit is
tested then a 2 dB margin is required.
Ghery S. Pettit iNCE
Pettit EMC Consulting LLC
*From:* John Woodgate mailto:j...@woodjohn.uk>>
*Sent:* Monday, November 18, 2019 11:47 AM
*To:* EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG <mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
*Subject:* Re: [PSES] 80/80 rule
I agree: I'm almost certain that it is German in origin, and I'm sure
it dates back to the 20th Century, possibly as early as 1960.
Best wishes
John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only
J M Woodgate and Associateswww.woodjohn.uk <http://www.woodjohn.uk>
Rayleigh, Essex UK
On 2019-11-18 19:44, John Shinn wrote:
If my memory serves me right, as I recall, the 80/80 rule was in
at least one of the VDE standards regarding radiated emissions. I
can’t recall the number or name. This is going back to the late
‘70s or so.
John Shinn
Retired
Sent from my iPhone
On Nov 18, 2019, at 9:55 AM, John Woodgate
<mailto:j...@woodjohn.uk> wrote:
Can someone tell me when the 80/80 rule was introduced into
CISPR standards and if possible, a bit more detail than just
the date, please?
--
Best wishes
John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only
J M Woodgate and Associateswww.woodjohn.uk <http://www.woodjohn.uk>
Rayleigh, Essex UK
-
This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering
Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the
list, send your e-mail to mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org>>
All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web
at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html
<http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html>
Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online
Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/
<http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/> can be used for
graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc.
Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including
how to unsubscribe)
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html
For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas mailto:sdoug...@ieee.org>>
Mike Cantwell mailto:mcantw...@ieee.org>>
For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org>>
David Heald mailto:dhe...@gmail.com>>
-
This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society
emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your
e-mail to mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org>>
All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html
<http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html>
Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities
site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/
<http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/> can be used for graphics (in
well-used formats), large files, etc.
Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to
unsubscribe)
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html
For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas mailto:sdoug...@ieee.org>>
Mike Cantwell mailto:mcantw...@ieee.org>>
For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org>>
David Heald mailto:dhe...@gmail.com>>
-
This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society
emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your
e-mail to mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org>>
All emc-pstc postings are archived and sear
Re: [PSES] 80/80 rule
I found an interesting old document “CISPR Report of the Plenary Session held in The Hague from 18th to 21st November 1958”. It mentions a Study Question 18 (Brussels 1956): “what method should be used when applying limits for radio interference to appliances in large-scale production?” I could not find anything more on this, but it looks like a kick-off for the statistical evaluation. And no, I was not there. Regards, Ari Honkala SESKO From: Ghery S. Pettit [mailto:n6...@comcast.net] Sent: maanantai 18. marraskuuta 2019 21.50 To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] 80/80 rule I know it is in VDE 0871/6.78, so it dates back to at least June of 1978. I don’t know about anything prior to that. VDE 0871/6.78 is also the only place I’ve seen a requirement that if a single unit is tested then a 2 dB margin is required. Ghery S. Pettit iNCE Pettit EMC Consulting LLC From: John Woodgate mailto:j...@woodjohn.uk>> Sent: Monday, November 18, 2019 11:47 AM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> Subject: Re: [PSES] 80/80 rule I agree: I'm almost certain that it is German in origin, and I'm sure it dates back to the 20th Century, possibly as early as 1960. Best wishes John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only J M Woodgate and Associates www.woodjohn.uk<http://www.woodjohn.uk> Rayleigh, Essex UK On 2019-11-18 19:44, John Shinn wrote: If my memory serves me right, as I recall, the 80/80 rule was in at least one of the VDE standards regarding radiated emissions. I can’t recall the number or name. This is going back to the late ‘70s or so. John Shinn Retired Sent from my iPhone On Nov 18, 2019, at 9:55 AM, John Woodgate <mailto:j...@woodjohn.uk> wrote: Can someone tell me when the 80/80 rule was introduced into CISPR standards and if possible, a bit more detail than just the date, please? -- Best wishes John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only J M Woodgate and Associates www.woodjohn.uk<http://www.woodjohn.uk> Rayleigh, Essex UK - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org>> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)<http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html> List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas mailto:sdoug...@ieee.org>> Mike Cantwell mailto:mcantw...@ieee.org>> For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org>> David Heald mailto:dhe...@gmail.com>> - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org>> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)<http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html> List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas mailto:sdoug...@ieee.org>> Mike Cantwell mailto:mcantw...@ieee.org>> For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org>> David Heald mailto:dhe...@gmail.com>> - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org>> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)<http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html> List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas mailto:sdoug...@ieee.org>> Mike Cantwell mailto:m
Re: [PSES] 80/80 rule
The 80/80 rule was/is applied for auditing manufacturing as, according to management, 'good enough for government work.' They figured the risk of getting caught was sufficiently low enough to continue shipping. Initial testing has no allowance for exceeding the requirements. An experienced producer will know what variation his manufacturing can make, and lean towards a 'margin' of passing that accounts for that tolerance. The FCC is explicit somewhere in the rules tho shall not interfere, regardless of compliance with the rules. (part 15 devices.) If a license holder complains about interference, one is shut down. The EU seems a little more relaxed. No room in the standards for exceeding the requirements. There is "shall" all through the documents. And then the uncertainty calculations are required. But no explicit statements about interference to license holders. The FCC does enforcement of complaints, but does not do surveillance, which is left to the FCC's privatized arm of the TCB's. Which is funny, since the one TCB audit I got called for came on a product that I had not received the finalized reports for and had not yet gone into production so the only unit available was the actual test unit, that they still had in hand. The audit request was withdrawn. I have shown the management the list of penalties from the FCC and some of the reported actions taken by the FCC. And somewhere in the OJ, I seem to recall a mention of actions that can be taken by the EU for violations, including banned from the market. On Monday, November 18, 2019, 06:31:41 PM EST, John Woodgate wrote: Yes, 20% is an over-estimate for committees with more than five members. My view (and I think it might even begin to be believed) is that it can be accepted that standards should not allow, or even encourage, the shipment of non-compliant product. The manufacturer alone must decide how to cope with this requirement. One way might be to apply an X/Y rule, where X or Y or both are larger than 80, so that the probability of a failure under an 80/80-based surveillance is extremely low. But statistical variations do occur, undeniably, and may change from the instant of shipment to the instant of assessment by a surveillance authority. So the **surveillance authority** should make allowance for these variations, by applying the 80/80 rule, or some other algorithm that can be justified. Best wishes John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only J M Woodgate and Associates www.woodjohn.uk Rayleigh, Essex UK On 2019-11-18 20:57, John Allen wrote: John W Is not the “80/20 rule” simply the “inverse” of the “80/80 rule”?J. BTW: those 20% of the committees that actually do the work (with which, from experience as a BSI committee secretary some years ago, I more than agree – although in many instances it was far less than 20%!!) are but an infinitesimal %age of the numbers of people who blithely have to accept the deliberations thereof (some of which were overly influenced by the “status” of, and pressure from, the Chairmen - at least that was the situation “quite a few years ago”, but it is hopefully much better controlled nowadays!). OTOH, in the context of EMC standards (etc.), what other “rule” might one reasonably choose when attempting to prepare a standard for “general consumption”?: e.g. - “Absolute/100% compliance”? - Obviously impossible in practice for practical and economic reasons (except in exceptional and highly critical situations). - “At the discretion of the assessor?” – we probably all know where that would lead (“How much money/work/…… do you want?”) - “Who the hell cares”!” – one sample passed (very marginally – seen that = 0.5 dBV on an OATS!) so that’ll be good enough! J - - Some “other” criteria?? – and thus?? Actually, that last “question” is quite a “serious” one – so what other criteria could be used? John E Allen W. London, UK - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher David Heald - This message is from the
Re: [PSES] 80/80 rule
Yes, 20% is an over-estimate for committees with more than five members. My view (and I think it might even begin to be believed) is that it can be accepted that standards should not allow, or even encourage, the shipment of non-compliant product. The manufacturer alone must decide how to cope with this requirement. One way might be to apply an X/Y rule, where X or Y or both are larger than 80, so that the probability of a failure under an 80/80-based surveillance is extremely low. But statistical variations do occur, undeniably, and may change from the instant of shipment to the instant of assessment by a surveillance authority. So the **surveillance authority** should make allowance for these variations, by applying the 80/80 rule, or some other algorithm that can be justified. Best wishes John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only J M Woodgate and Associates www.woodjohn.uk Rayleigh, Essex UK On 2019-11-18 20:57, John Allen wrote: John W Is not the “80/20 rule” simply the “inverse” of the “80/80 rule”?J. BTW: those 20% of the committees that actually do the work (with which, from experience as a BSI committee secretary some years ago, I more than agree – although in many instances it was far less than 20%!!) are but an infinitesimal %age of the numbers of people who blithely have to accept the deliberations thereof (some of which were overly influenced by the “status” of, and pressure from, the Chairmen - at least that was the situation “quite a few years ago”, but it is hopefully much better controlled nowadays!). OTOH, in the context of EMC standards (etc.), what other “rule” might one reasonably choose when attempting to prepare a standard for “general consumption”?: e.g. -“Absolute/100% compliance”? - Obviously impossible in practice for practical and economic reasons /(except in exceptional and highly critical situations)./ -“At the discretion of the assessor?” – we probably all know where that would lead /(“How much money/work/…… do you want?”)/ -“Who the hell cares”!” – one sample passed /(very marginally – seen that = 0.5 dBV on an OATS/!) so that’ll be good enough! J -- Some “other” criteria?? – /and thus??/ Actually, that last “question” is quite a “serious” one – so what _other _/criteria /could be used? John E Allen W. London, UK - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald:
Re: [PSES] 80/80 rule
John W Is not the “80/20 rule” simply the “inverse” of the “80/80 rule”?J. BTW: those 20% of the committees that actually do the work (with which, from experience as a BSI committee secretary some years ago, I more than agree – although in many instances it was far less than 20%!!) are but an infinitesimal %age of the numbers of people who blithely have to accept the deliberations thereof (some of which were overly influenced by the “status” of, and pressure from, the Chairmen - at least that was the situation “quite a few years ago”, but it is hopefully much better controlled nowadays!). OTOH, in the context of EMC standards (etc.), what other “rule” might one reasonably choose when attempting to prepare a standard for “general consumption”?: e.g. - “Absolute/100% compliance”? - Obviously impossible in practice for practical and economic reasons (except in exceptional and highly critical situations). - “At the discretion of the assessor?” – we probably all know where that would lead (“How much money/work/…… do you want?”) - “Who the hell cares”!” – one sample passed (very marginally – seen that = 0.5 dBV on an OATS!) so that’ll be good enough! J - - Some “other” criteria?? – and thus?? Actually, that last “question” is quite a “serious” one – so what other criteria could be used? John E Allen W. London, UK From: John Woodgate [mailto:j...@woodjohn.uk] Sent: 18 November 2019 20:27 To: John Allen; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] 80/80 rule That's the 80/20 rule, which is an entirely different thing. It applies to standards committees; 20 % of members do all the work and 80 % just accept the results. Best wishes John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only J M Woodgate and Associates www.woodjohn.uk Rayleigh, Essex UK On 2019-11-18 20:02, John Allen wrote: Quick search on “80/80 rule history” yields (for a start!): “It was named after it's founder, the Italian economist Vilfredo Pareto, back in 1895. He noticed that people in society seemed to divide naturally into what he called the “vital few,” or the top 20 percent in terms of money and influence, and the “trivial many,” or the bottom 80 percent.” And then “The Pareto principle (also known as the 80/20 rule, the law of the vital few, or the principle of factor sparsity) states that, for many events, roughly 80% of the effects come from 20% of the causes. ... Pareto developed both concepts in the context of the distribution of income and wealth among the population.” So the “rule” seems to date back to the late 19th Century, although (obviously!) not in the context of EMC control matters. However, I’m guessing it was later adopted in that context as a reasonable “rule of thumb” for assessing how well or not products could be assessed as being compliant with EMC standards. I have absolutely no idea when that might happened, but I would suggest looking for/at documents that lead up to the earlier known emission standards in the commercial field (military field was, and still is, a rather different one). John E Allen W. London, UK. From: John Woodgate [mailto:j...@woodjohn.uk] Sent: 18 November 2019 19:47 To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] 80/80 rule I agree: I'm almost certain that it is German in origin, and I'm sure it dates back to the 20th Century, possibly as early as 1960. Best wishes John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only J M Woodgate and Associates www.woodjohn.uk Rayleigh, Essex UK On 2019-11-18 19:44, John Shinn wrote: If my memory serves me right, as I recall, the 80/80 rule was in at least one of the VDE standards regarding radiated emissions. I can’t recall the number or name. This is going back to the late ‘70s or so. John Shinn Retired Sent from my iPhone On Nov 18, 2019, at 9:55 AM, John Woodgate <mailto:j...@woodjohn.uk> wrote: Can someone tell me when the 80/80 rule was introduced into CISPR standards and if possible, a bit more detail than just the date, please? -- Best wishes John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only J M Woodgate and Associates www.woodjohn.uk Rayleigh, Essex UK - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) <http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html> List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Sco
Re: [PSES] 80/80 rule
Gerry, that number sounds familiar. John Shinn Sent from my iPhone > On Nov 18, 2019, at 11:50 AM, Ghery S. Pettit wrote: > > > I know it is in VDE 0871/6.78, so it dates back to at least June of 1978. I > don’t know about anything prior to that. VDE 0871/6.78 is also the only > place I’ve seen a requirement that if a single unit is tested then a 2 dB > margin is required. > > Ghery S. Pettit iNCE > Pettit EMC Consulting LLC > > > From: John Woodgate > Sent: Monday, November 18, 2019 11:47 AM > To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG > Subject: Re: [PSES] 80/80 rule > > I agree: I'm almost certain that it is German in origin, and I'm sure it > dates back to the 20th Century, possibly as early as 1960. > > Best wishes > John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only > J M Woodgate and Associates www.woodjohn.uk > Rayleigh, Essex UK > On 2019-11-18 19:44, John Shinn wrote: > If my memory serves me right, as I recall, the 80/80 rule was in at least one > of the VDE standards regarding radiated emissions. I can’t recall the number > or name. This is going back to the late ‘70s or so. > > John Shinn > Retired > > Sent from my iPhone > > > On Nov 18, 2019, at 9:55 AM, John Woodgate wrote: > > > Can someone tell me when the 80/80 rule was introduced into CISPR standards > and if possible, a bit more detail than just the date, please? > > -- > Best wishes > John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only > J M Woodgate and Associates www.woodjohn.uk > Rayleigh, Essex UK > - > > This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc > discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to > > > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: > http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html > > Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at > http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used > formats), large files, etc. > > Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ > Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to > unsubscribe) > List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html > > For help, send mail to the list administrators: > Scott Douglas > Mike Cantwell > > For policy questions, send mail to: > Jim Bacher > David Heald > > - > > This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc > discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to > > > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: > http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html > > Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at > http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used > formats), large files, etc. > > Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ > Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to > unsubscribe) > List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html > > For help, send mail to the list administrators: > Scott Douglas > Mike Cantwell > > For policy questions, send mail to: > Jim Bacher > David Heald > > - > > This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc > discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to > > > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: > http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html > > Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at > http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used > formats), large files, etc. > > Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ > Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to > unsubscribe) > List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html > > For help, send mail to the list administrators: > Scott Douglas > Mike Cantwell > > For policy questions, send mail to: > Jim Bacher > David Heald - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald:
Re: [PSES] 80/80 rule
That's the 80/20 rule, which is an entirely different thing. It applies
to standards committees; 20 % of members do all the work and 80 % just
accept the results.
Best wishes
John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only
J M Woodgate and Associates www.woodjohn.uk
Rayleigh, Essex UK
On 2019-11-18 20:02, John Allen wrote:
Quick search on “80/80 rule history” yields (for a start!):
“It was named after it's founder, the Italian economist Vilfredo
Pareto, back in 1895. He noticed that people in society seemed to
divide naturally into what he called the “vital few,” or the top 20
percent in terms of money and influence, and the “trivial many,” or
the bottom 80 percent.”
And then
“The Pareto principle (also known as the 80/20 rule, the law of the
vital few, or the principle of factor sparsity) states that, for many
events, roughly 80% of the effects come from 20% of the causes. ...
Pareto developed both concepts in the context of the distribution of
income and wealth among the population.”
So the “rule” seems to date back to the late 19^th Century, although
(obviously!) not in the context of EMC control matters.
However, I’m guessing it was later adopted in that context as a
reasonable “rule of thumb” for assessing how well or not products
could be assessed as being compliant with EMC standards. I have
absolutely no idea when that might happened, but I would suggest
looking for/at documents that lead up to the earlier known emission
standards in the commercial field (military field was, and still is, a
rather different one).
John E Allen
W. London, UK.
*From:*John Woodgate [mailto:j...@woodjohn.uk]
*Sent:* 18 November 2019 19:47
*To:* EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
*Subject:* Re: [PSES] 80/80 rule
I agree: I'm almost certain that it is German in origin, and I'm sure
it dates back to the 20th Century, possibly as early as 1960.
Best wishes
John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only
J M Woodgate and Associateswww.woodjohn.uk <http://www.woodjohn.uk>
Rayleigh, Essex UK
On 2019-11-18 19:44, John Shinn wrote:
If my memory serves me right, as I recall, the 80/80 rule was in
at least one of the VDE standards regarding radiated emissions. I
can’t recall the number or name. This is going back to the late
‘70s or so.
John Shinn
Retired
Sent from my iPhone
On Nov 18, 2019, at 9:55 AM, John Woodgate
<mailto:j...@woodjohn.uk> wrote:
Can someone tell me when the 80/80 rule was introduced into
CISPR standards and if possible, a bit more detail than just
the date, please?
--
Best wishes
John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only
J M Woodgate and Associateswww.woodjohn.uk <http://www.woodjohn.uk>
Rayleigh, Essex UK
-
This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering
Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the
list, send your e-mail to mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org>>
All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web
at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html
Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online
Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can
be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc.
Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including
how to unsubscribe)
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html
For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas mailto:sdoug...@ieee.org>>
Mike Cantwell mailto:mcantw...@ieee.org>>
For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org>>
David Heald mailto:dhe...@gmail.com>>
-
This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society
emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your
e-mail to mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org>>
All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html
Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities
site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for
graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc.
Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to
unsubscribe)
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html
For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas mailto:sdoug...@ieee.org>>
Mike Cantwell mailto:mcantw...@ieee.org>>
For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org>>
David Heald mailto:dhe...@gmail.com>>
-
Thi
Re: [PSES] 80/80 rule
Way back, some statistic guru said it reads as 80 percent confident that 80 percent of the samples will comply with the requirement. On Monday, November 18, 2019, 03:03:12 PM EST, John Allen <09cc677f395b-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org> wrote: Quick search on “80/80 rule history” yields (for a start!): “It was named after it's founder, the Italian economist Vilfredo Pareto, back in 1895. He noticed that people in society seemed to divide naturally into what he called the “vital few,” or the top 20 percent in terms of money and influence, and the “trivial many,” or the bottom 80 percent.” And then “The Pareto principle (also known as the 80/20 rule, the law of the vital few, or the principle of factor sparsity) states that, for many events, roughly 80% of the effects come from 20% of the causes. ... Pareto developed both concepts in the context of the distribution of income and wealth among the population.” So the “rule” seems to date back to the late 19th Century, although (obviously!) not in the context of EMC control matters. However, I’m guessing it was later adopted in that context as a reasonable “rule of thumb” for assessing how well or not products could be assessed as being compliant with EMC standards. I have absolutely no idea when that might happened, but I would suggest looking for/at documents that lead up to the earlier known emission standards in the commercial field (military field was, and still is, a rather different one). John E Allen W. London, UK. From: John Woodgate [mailto:j...@woodjohn.uk] Sent: 18 November 2019 19:47 To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] 80/80 rule I agree: I'm almost certain that it is German in origin, and I'm sure it dates back to the 20th Century, possibly as early as 1960. Best wishesJohn Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions OnlyJ M Woodgate and Associates www.woodjohn.ukRayleigh, Essex UK On 2019-11-18 19:44, John Shinn wrote: If my memory serves me right, as I recall, the 80/80 rule was in at least one of the VDE standards regarding radiated emissions. I can’t recall the number or name. This is going back to the late ‘70s or so. John Shinn Retired Sent from my iPhone On Nov 18, 2019, at 9:55 AM, John Woodgate wrote: Can someone tell me when the 80/80 rule was introduced into CISPR standards and if possible, a bit more detail than just the date, please? -- Best wishesJohn Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions OnlyJ M Woodgate and Associates www.woodjohn.ukRayleigh, Essex UK - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher David Heald - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher David Heald - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Ji
Re: [PSES] 80/80 rule
Quick search on “80/80 rule history” yields (for a start!): “It was named after it's founder, the Italian economist Vilfredo Pareto, back in 1895. He noticed that people in society seemed to divide naturally into what he called the “vital few,” or the top 20 percent in terms of money and influence, and the “trivial many,” or the bottom 80 percent.” And then “The Pareto principle (also known as the 80/20 rule, the law of the vital few, or the principle of factor sparsity) states that, for many events, roughly 80% of the effects come from 20% of the causes. ... Pareto developed both concepts in the context of the distribution of income and wealth among the population.” So the “rule” seems to date back to the late 19th Century, although (obviously!) not in the context of EMC control matters. However, I’m guessing it was later adopted in that context as a reasonable “rule of thumb” for assessing how well or not products could be assessed as being compliant with EMC standards. I have absolutely no idea when that might happened, but I would suggest looking for/at documents that lead up to the earlier known emission standards in the commercial field (military field was, and still is, a rather different one). John E Allen W. London, UK. From: John Woodgate [mailto:j...@woodjohn.uk] Sent: 18 November 2019 19:47 To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] 80/80 rule I agree: I'm almost certain that it is German in origin, and I'm sure it dates back to the 20th Century, possibly as early as 1960. Best wishes John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only J M Woodgate and Associates www.woodjohn.uk Rayleigh, Essex UK On 2019-11-18 19:44, John Shinn wrote: If my memory serves me right, as I recall, the 80/80 rule was in at least one of the VDE standards regarding radiated emissions. I can’t recall the number or name. This is going back to the late ‘70s or so. John Shinn Retired Sent from my iPhone On Nov 18, 2019, at 9:55 AM, John Woodgate <mailto:j...@woodjohn.uk> wrote: Can someone tell me when the 80/80 rule was introduced into CISPR standards and if possible, a bit more detail than just the date, please? -- Best wishes John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only J M Woodgate and Associates www.woodjohn.uk Rayleigh, Essex UK - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) <http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html> List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher David Heald - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) <http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html> List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher David Heald - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald:
Re: [PSES] 80/80 rule
I know it is in VDE 0871/6.78, so it dates back to at least June of 1978. I don’t know about anything prior to that. VDE 0871/6.78 is also the only place I’ve seen a requirement that if a single unit is tested then a 2 dB margin is required. Ghery S. Pettit iNCE Pettit EMC Consulting LLC From: John Woodgate Sent: Monday, November 18, 2019 11:47 AM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] 80/80 rule I agree: I'm almost certain that it is German in origin, and I'm sure it dates back to the 20th Century, possibly as early as 1960. Best wishes John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only J M Woodgate and Associates www.woodjohn.uk <http://www.woodjohn.uk> Rayleigh, Essex UK On 2019-11-18 19:44, John Shinn wrote: If my memory serves me right, as I recall, the 80/80 rule was in at least one of the VDE standards regarding radiated emissions. I can’t recall the number or name. This is going back to the late ‘70s or so. John Shinn Retired Sent from my iPhone On Nov 18, 2019, at 9:55 AM, John Woodgate <mailto:j...@woodjohn.uk> wrote: Can someone tell me when the 80/80 rule was introduced into CISPR standards and if possible, a bit more detail than just the date, please? -- Best wishes John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only J M Woodgate and Associates www.woodjohn.uk <http://www.woodjohn.uk> Rayleigh, Essex UK - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org> > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) <http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html> List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas mailto:sdoug...@ieee.org> > Mike Cantwell mailto:mcantw...@ieee.org> > For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org> > David Heald mailto:dhe...@gmail.com> > - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org> > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) <http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html> List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas mailto:sdoug...@ieee.org> > Mike Cantwell mailto:mcantw...@ieee.org> > For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org> > David Heald mailto:dhe...@gmail.com> > - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald:
Re: [PSES] 80/80 rule
I agree: I'm almost certain that it is German in origin, and I'm sure it dates back to the 20th Century, possibly as early as 1960. Best wishes John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only J M Woodgate and Associates www.woodjohn.uk Rayleigh, Essex UK On 2019-11-18 19:44, John Shinn wrote: If my memory serves me right, as I recall, the 80/80 rule was in at least one of the VDE standards regarding radiated emissions. I can’t recall the number or name. This is going back to the late ‘70s or so. John Shinn Retired Sent from my iPhone On Nov 18, 2019, at 9:55 AM, John Woodgate wrote: Can someone tell me when the 80/80 rule was introduced into CISPR standards and if possible, a bit more detail than just the date, please? -- Best wishes John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only J M Woodgate and Associateswww.woodjohn.uk Rayleigh, Essex UK - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org>> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas mailto:sdoug...@ieee.org>> Mike Cantwell mailto:mcantw...@ieee.org>> For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org>> David Heald mailto:dhe...@gmail.com>> - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald:
Re: [PSES] 80/80 rule
If my memory serves me right, as I recall, the 80/80 rule was in at least one of the VDE standards regarding radiated emissions. I can’t recall the number or name. This is going back to the late ‘70s or so. John Shinn Retired Sent from my iPhone > On Nov 18, 2019, at 9:55 AM, John Woodgate wrote: > > > Can someone tell me when the 80/80 rule was introduced into CISPR standards > and if possible, a bit more detail than just the date, please? > > -- > Best wishes > John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only > J M Woodgate and Associates www.woodjohn.uk > Rayleigh, Essex UK > - > > This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc > discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to > > > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: > http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html > > Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at > http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used > formats), large files, etc. > > Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ > Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to > unsubscribe) > List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html > > For help, send mail to the list administrators: > Scott Douglas > Mike Cantwell > > For policy questions, send mail to: > Jim Bacher > David Heald - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald:
Re: [PSES] 80/80 rule
oh, and I have no references. It was just standard practice. On Monday, November 18, 2019, 02:36:38 PM EST, Bill Owsley <00f5a03f18eb-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org> wrote: We used it back in the early 1980's. Applied it to sample size for audits. On Monday, November 18, 2019, 02:28:38 PM EST, Mark Gandler wrote: John, would be beneficial if you can share your earliest recollection of the dates, besides stating it dates back much further. Mark From: John Woodgate Organization: J M Woodgate and Associates Reply-To: John Woodgate Date: Monday, November 18, 2019 at 11:18 AM To: Subject: Re: [PSES] 80/80 rule Thanks for your response, but the rule dates back much further. Best wishes John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only J M Woodgate and Associates www.woodjohn.uk Rayleigh, Essex UK On 2019-11-18 18:22, Larry K. Stillings wrote: Hi John, There is an IEEE presentation dated 1992, but you may already be aware of that? Unfortunately my IEEE account doesn’t have access to that document, it might have some useful references. https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/168355 Larry K. Stillings Compliance Worldwide, Inc. Test Locally, Sell Globally and Launch Your Products Around the World! FCC - Wireless - Telecom - CE Marking - International Approvals - Product Safety 357 Main Street Sandown, NH 03873 (603) 887 3903 Fax 887-6445 www.complianceworldwide.com Privileged/Confidential Information may be contained in this message. If you are not the addressee indicated in this message (or responsible for delivery of the message to such person), you may not copy or deliver this message to anyone. In such case, you should destroy this message and kindly notify the sender by reply email. Please advise immediately if you or your employer do not consent to Internet email for messages of this kind. Opinions, conclusions and other information in this message that do not relate to the official business of my firm shall be understood as neither given nor endorsed by it. From: John Woodgate Sent: Monday, November 18, 2019 12:55 PM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: [PSES] 80/80 rule Can someone tell me when the 80/80 rule was introduced into CISPR standards and if possible, a bit more detail than just the date, please? -- Best wishes John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only J M Woodgate and Associates www.woodjohn.uk Rayleigh, Essex UK - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher David Heald - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher David Heald - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher David Heald - ---
Re: [PSES] 80/80 rule
We used it back in the early 1980's. Applied it to sample size for audits. On Monday, November 18, 2019, 02:28:38 PM EST, Mark Gandler wrote: John, would be beneficial if you can share your earliest recollection of the dates, besides stating it dates back much further. Mark From: John Woodgate Organization: J M Woodgate and Associates Reply-To: John Woodgate Date: Monday, November 18, 2019 at 11:18 AM To: Subject: Re: [PSES] 80/80 rule Thanks for your response, but the rule dates back much further. Best wishes John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only J M Woodgate and Associates www.woodjohn.uk Rayleigh, Essex UK On 2019-11-18 18:22, Larry K. Stillings wrote: Hi John, There is an IEEE presentation dated 1992, but you may already be aware of that? Unfortunately my IEEE account doesn’t have access to that document, it might have some useful references. https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/168355 Larry K. Stillings Compliance Worldwide, Inc. Test Locally, Sell Globally and Launch Your Products Around the World! FCC - Wireless - Telecom - CE Marking - International Approvals - Product Safety 357 Main Street Sandown, NH 03873 (603) 887 3903 Fax 887-6445 www.complianceworldwide.com Privileged/Confidential Information may be contained in this message. If you are not the addressee indicated in this message (or responsible for delivery of the message to such person), you may not copy or deliver this message to anyone. In such case, you should destroy this message and kindly notify the sender by reply email. Please advise immediately if you or your employer do not consent to Internet email for messages of this kind. Opinions, conclusions and other information in this message that do not relate to the official business of my firm shall be understood as neither given nor endorsed by it. From: John Woodgate Sent: Monday, November 18, 2019 12:55 PM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: [PSES] 80/80 rule Can someone tell me when the 80/80 rule was introduced into CISPR standards and if possible, a bit more detail than just the date, please? -- Best wishes John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only J M Woodgate and Associates www.woodjohn.uk Rayleigh, Essex UK - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher David Heald - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher David Heald - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher David Heald - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archive
Re: [PSES] 80/80 rule
John, would be beneficial if you can share your earliest recollection of the dates, besides stating it dates back much further. Mark From: John Woodgate Organization: J M Woodgate and Associates Reply-To: John Woodgate Date: Monday, November 18, 2019 at 11:18 AM To: Subject: Re: [PSES] 80/80 rule Thanks for your response, but the rule dates back much further. Best wishes John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only J M Woodgate and Associates www.woodjohn.uk<https://eur04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.woodjohn.uk&data=02%7C01%7C%7Ca7ade5f66b5a4e47e26c08d76c5c0f93%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C637097014958708311&sdata=pNBDrgmwXcpK87KV%2FnKGwzlztG4q1MlJYGSWOK%2FcPsc%3D&reserved=0> Rayleigh, Essex UK On 2019-11-18 18:22, Larry K. Stillings wrote: Hi John, There is an IEEE presentation dated 1992, but you may already be aware of that? Unfortunately my IEEE account doesn’t have access to that document, it might have some useful references. https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/168355<https://eur04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fieeexplore.ieee.org%2Fdocument%2F168355&data=02%7C01%7C%7Ca7ade5f66b5a4e47e26c08d76c5c0f93%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C637097014958718319&sdata=aRcCNTSHuZG9Bu8%2B7jpp7GY22u7eW4c7tD9S0FffLsU%3D&reserved=0> Larry K. Stillings Compliance Worldwide, Inc. Test Locally, Sell Globally and Launch Your Products Around the World! FCC - Wireless - Telecom - CE Marking - International Approvals - Product Safety 357 Main Street Sandown, NH 03873 (603) 887 3903 Fax 887-6445 www.complianceworldwide.com<https://eur04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.complianceworldwide.com%2F&data=02%7C01%7C%7Ca7ade5f66b5a4e47e26c08d76c5c0f93%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C637097014958728328&sdata=8oYmPW3RA7%2F78yRXoPNjLWlsGYfrUKo8iHjBkeeGBAg%3D&reserved=0> Privileged/Confidential Information may be contained in this message. If you are not the addressee indicated in this message (or responsible for delivery of the message to such person), you may not copy or deliver this message to anyone. In such case, you should destroy this message and kindly notify the sender by reply email. Please advise immediately if you or your employer do not consent to Internet email for messages of this kind. Opinions, conclusions and other information in this message that do not relate to the official business of my firm shall be understood as neither given nor endorsed by it. From: John Woodgate Sent: Monday, November 18, 2019 12:55 PM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> Subject: [PSES] 80/80 rule Can someone tell me when the 80/80 rule was introduced into CISPR standards and if possible, a bit more detail than just the date, please? -- Best wishes John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only J M Woodgate and Associates www.woodjohn.uk<https://eur04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.woodjohn.uk&data=02%7C01%7C%7Ca7ade5f66b5a4e47e26c08d76c5c0f93%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C637097014958728328&sdata=XMuipJi3W9xqmoenRQipo0wsWD2Vx9WR%2FMMqzYbY7NI%3D&reserved=0> Rayleigh, Essex UK - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org>> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html<https://eur04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ieee-pses.org%2Femc-pstc.html&data=02%7C01%7C%7Ca7ade5f66b5a4e47e26c08d76c5c0f93%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C637097014958738336&sdata=c6wzOph8RYrCjuJ15W3h8gp9N83qFa0LI0heaJzwIu0%3D&reserved=0> Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/<https://eur04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fproduct-compliance.oc.ieee.org%2F&data=02%7C01%7C%7Ca7ade5f66b5a4e47e26c08d76c5c0f93%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C637097014958748344&sdata=QvAF3%2FKd8xUs3sKyKPdBmtWmTCnyngTQ8oZSxUwN2iA%3D&reserved=0> can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/<https://eur04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ieee-pses.org%2F&data=02%7C01%7C%7Ca7ade5f66b5a4e47e26c08d76c5c0f93%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C637097014958748344&sdata=t1MU4voJJoqb87AqoOqVnwZ2GgU9g5niLa6TCPeqhWk%3D&reserved=0> Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)<https://eur04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ieee-pses.org%2Flist.html&data=02%7C01%7C%7Ca7ade5f66b5a4e47e26c08d76c5c0f93%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435a
Re: [PSES] 80/80 rule
Thanks for your response, but the rule dates back much further. Best wishes John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only J M Woodgate and Associates www.woodjohn.uk Rayleigh, Essex UK On 2019-11-18 18:11, Wiseman, Joshua wrote: John, I first came across it in Annex H of CIPSR 11: 2015. The informative annex gives some guidance on statistical confidence levels and references the 80/80 rule. It also gives guidance on sample size based on the margins you see. I don’t know much more than this. It proved helpful when we had an issue recently though. It gave me a place to point to support my point of view. Josh *Joshua Wiseman* Systems Engineering Staff Engineer, Product Safety/EMC *Ortho Clinical Diagnostics* ** https://insideortho.orthoclinicaldiagnostics.global/wps/wcm/myconnect/add13339-9211-4e73-9f5d-229f45406f61/OrthoMailSigLogo160x17.png?MOD=AJPERES&CACHEID=ROOTWORKSPACE-add13339-9211-4e73-9f5d-229f45406f61-mm1LfFj *From:* John Woodgate *Sent:* Monday, November 18, 2019 12:55 PM *To:* EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG *Subject:* [PSES] 80/80 rule *EXTERNAL SENDER: Verify links, attachments and sender before taking action* Can someone tell me when the 80/80 rule was introduced into CISPR standards and if possible, a bit more detail than just the date, please? -- Best wishes John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only J M Woodgate and Associateswww.woodjohn.uk <https://nam03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.woodjohn.uk&data=02%7C01%7Cjoshua.wiseman%40orthoclinicaldiagnostics.com%7C74302e5353bd4b8ed31308d76c50774c%7C6e63ffc0c2fc4cc4b6c4666b2ce89d92%7C0%7C0%7C637096965169358985&sdata=KdJl4dyb1Tl5tZM9S36YvEYVQQSAT9TA5SBzuSnB1Dk%3D&reserved=0> Rayleigh, Essex UK - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org>> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html <https://nam03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ieee-pses.org%2Femc-pstc.html&data=02%7C01%7Cjoshua.wiseman%40orthoclinicaldiagnostics.com%7C74302e5353bd4b8ed31308d76c50774c%7C6e63ffc0c2fc4cc4b6c4666b2ce89d92%7C0%7C0%7C637096965169368977&sdata=DbN6mVchosAnx7ry87dx0b1LtN6OrrgqHzMupkiX7sg%3D&reserved=0> Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ <https://nam03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fproduct-compliance.oc.ieee.org%2F&data=02%7C01%7Cjoshua.wiseman%40orthoclinicaldiagnostics.com%7C74302e5353bd4b8ed31308d76c50774c%7C6e63ffc0c2fc4cc4b6c4666b2ce89d92%7C0%7C0%7C637096965169368977&sdata=eQ%2FJd%2Fp%2FEkoZ59c5iaezQnJVLNEICCog3jyD8g0%2Bh2o%3D&reserved=0> can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ <https://nam03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ieee-pses.org%2F&data=02%7C01%7Cjoshua.wiseman%40orthoclinicaldiagnostics.com%7C74302e5353bd4b8ed31308d76c50774c%7C6e63ffc0c2fc4cc4b6c4666b2ce89d92%7C0%7C0%7C637096965169378977&sdata=wovTGDPp0DkKIVsEyuSa8tobMMwa26mA4%2BMU80yGPzE%3D&reserved=0> Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) <https://nam03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ieee-pses.org%2Flist.html&data=02%7C01%7Cjoshua.wiseman%40orthoclinicaldiagnostics.com%7C74302e5353bd4b8ed31308d76c50774c%7C6e63ffc0c2fc4cc4b6c4666b2ce89d92%7C0%7C0%7C637096965169378977&sdata=6vmf6LX4b0%2FZ3o3rNUXwoxPCl9ZSntTm41EvK55pXSY%3D&reserved=0> List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html <https://nam03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ieee-pses.org%2Flistrules.html&data=02%7C01%7Cjoshua.wiseman%40orthoclinicaldiagnostics.com%7C74302e5353bd4b8ed31308d76c50774c%7C6e63ffc0c2fc4cc4b6c4666b2ce89d92%7C0%7C0%7C637096965169378977&sdata=737NTYYsvQ5f7bk6ew7kE551vE%2FWwTBxT3fkTadE%2FQk%3D&reserved=0> For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas mailto:sdoug...@ieee.org>> Mike Cantwell mailto:mcantw...@ieee.org>> For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org>> David Heald mailto:dhe...@gmail.com>> - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org>> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Websi
Re: [PSES] 80/80 rule
Thanks for your response, but the rule dates back much further. Best wishes John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only J M Woodgate and Associates www.woodjohn.uk Rayleigh, Essex UK On 2019-11-18 18:22, Larry K. Stillings wrote: Hi John, There is an IEEE presentation dated 1992, but you may already be aware of that? Unfortunately my IEEE account doesn’t have access to that document, it might have some useful references. https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/168355 Larry K. Stillings Compliance Worldwide, Inc. */Test Locally, Sell Globally and Launch Your Products Around the World!/* */FCC - Wireless - Telecom - CE Marking - International Approvals - Product Safety/* 357 Main Street Sandown, NH 03873 (603) 887 3903 Fax 887-6445 www.complianceworldwide.com <http://www.complianceworldwide.com/> Privileged/Confidential Information may be contained in this message. If you are not the addressee indicated in this message (or responsible for delivery of the message to such person), you may not copy or deliver this message to anyone. In such case, you should destroy this message and kindly notify the sender by reply email. Please advise immediately if you or your employer do not consent to Internet email for messages of this kind. Opinions, conclusions and other information in this message that do not relate to the official business of my firm shall be understood as neither given nor endorsed by it. *From:* John Woodgate *Sent:* Monday, November 18, 2019 12:55 PM *To:* EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG *Subject:* [PSES] 80/80 rule Can someone tell me when the 80/80 rule was introduced into CISPR standards and if possible, a bit more detail than just the date, please? -- Best wishes John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only J M Woodgate and Associateswww.woodjohn.uk <http://www.woodjohn.uk> Rayleigh, Essex UK - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org>> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html <http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html> Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ <http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/> can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas mailto:sdoug...@ieee.org>> Mike Cantwell mailto:mcantw...@ieee.org>> For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org>> David Heald mailto:dhe...@gmail.com>> - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org>> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas mailto:sdoug...@ieee.org>> Mike Cantwell mailto:mcantw...@ieee.org>> For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org>> David Heald mailto:dhe...@gmail.com>> - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald:
Re: [PSES] 80/80 rule
Hi John, There is an IEEE presentation dated 1992, but you may already be aware of that? Unfortunately my IEEE account doesn't have access to that document, it might have some useful references. https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/168355 Larry K. Stillings Compliance Worldwide, Inc. Test Locally, Sell Globally and Launch Your Products Around the World! FCC - Wireless - Telecom - CE Marking - International Approvals - Product Safety 357 Main Street Sandown, NH 03873 (603) 887 3903 Fax 887-6445 www.complianceworldwide.com<http://www.complianceworldwide.com/> Privileged/Confidential Information may be contained in this message. If you are not the addressee indicated in this message (or responsible for delivery of the message to such person), you may not copy or deliver this message to anyone. In such case, you should destroy this message and kindly notify the sender by reply email. Please advise immediately if you or your employer do not consent to Internet email for messages of this kind. Opinions, conclusions and other information in this message that do not relate to the official business of my firm shall be understood as neither given nor endorsed by it. From: John Woodgate Sent: Monday, November 18, 2019 12:55 PM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: [PSES] 80/80 rule Can someone tell me when the 80/80 rule was introduced into CISPR standards and if possible, a bit more detail than just the date, please? -- Best wishes John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only J M Woodgate and Associates www.woodjohn.uk<http://www.woodjohn.uk> Rayleigh, Essex UK - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org>> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)<http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html> List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas mailto:sdoug...@ieee.org>> Mike Cantwell mailto:mcantw...@ieee.org>> For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org>> David Heald mailto:dhe...@gmail.com>> - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald:
Re: [PSES] 80/80 rule
John, I first came across it in Annex H of CIPSR 11: 2015. The informative annex gives some guidance on statistical confidence levels and references the 80/80 rule. It also gives guidance on sample size based on the margins you see. I don't know much more than this. It proved helpful when we had an issue recently though. It gave me a place to point to support my point of view. Josh Joshua Wiseman Systems Engineering Staff Engineer, Product Safety/EMC Ortho Clinical Diagnostics [https://insideortho.orthoclinicaldiagnostics.global/wps/wcm/myconnect/add13339-9211-4e73-9f5d-229f45406f61/OrthoMailSigLogo160x17.png?MOD=AJPERES&CACHEID=ROOTWORKSPACE-add13339-9211-4e73-9f5d-229f45406f61-mm1LfFj] From: John Woodgate Sent: Monday, November 18, 2019 12:55 PM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: [PSES] 80/80 rule EXTERNAL SENDER: Verify links, attachments and sender before taking action Can someone tell me when the 80/80 rule was introduced into CISPR standards and if possible, a bit more detail than just the date, please? -- Best wishes John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only J M Woodgate and Associates www.woodjohn.uk<https://nam03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.woodjohn.uk&data=02%7C01%7Cjoshua.wiseman%40orthoclinicaldiagnostics.com%7C74302e5353bd4b8ed31308d76c50774c%7C6e63ffc0c2fc4cc4b6c4666b2ce89d92%7C0%7C0%7C637096965169358985&sdata=KdJl4dyb1Tl5tZM9S36YvEYVQQSAT9TA5SBzuSnB1Dk%3D&reserved=0> Rayleigh, Essex UK - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org>> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html<https://nam03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ieee-pses.org%2Femc-pstc.html&data=02%7C01%7Cjoshua.wiseman%40orthoclinicaldiagnostics.com%7C74302e5353bd4b8ed31308d76c50774c%7C6e63ffc0c2fc4cc4b6c4666b2ce89d92%7C0%7C0%7C637096965169368977&sdata=DbN6mVchosAnx7ry87dx0b1LtN6OrrgqHzMupkiX7sg%3D&reserved=0> Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/<https://nam03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fproduct-compliance.oc.ieee.org%2F&data=02%7C01%7Cjoshua.wiseman%40orthoclinicaldiagnostics.com%7C74302e5353bd4b8ed31308d76c50774c%7C6e63ffc0c2fc4cc4b6c4666b2ce89d92%7C0%7C0%7C637096965169368977&sdata=eQ%2FJd%2Fp%2FEkoZ59c5iaezQnJVLNEICCog3jyD8g0%2Bh2o%3D&reserved=0> can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/<https://nam03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ieee-pses.org%2F&data=02%7C01%7Cjoshua.wiseman%40orthoclinicaldiagnostics.com%7C74302e5353bd4b8ed31308d76c50774c%7C6e63ffc0c2fc4cc4b6c4666b2ce89d92%7C0%7C0%7C637096965169378977&sdata=wovTGDPp0DkKIVsEyuSa8tobMMwa26mA4%2BMU80yGPzE%3D&reserved=0> Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)<https://nam03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ieee-pses.org%2Flist.html&data=02%7C01%7Cjoshua.wiseman%40orthoclinicaldiagnostics.com%7C74302e5353bd4b8ed31308d76c50774c%7C6e63ffc0c2fc4cc4b6c4666b2ce89d92%7C0%7C0%7C637096965169378977&sdata=6vmf6LX4b0%2FZ3o3rNUXwoxPCl9ZSntTm41EvK55pXSY%3D&reserved=0> List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html<https://nam03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ieee-pses.org%2Flistrules.html&data=02%7C01%7Cjoshua.wiseman%40orthoclinicaldiagnostics.com%7C74302e5353bd4b8ed31308d76c50774c%7C6e63ffc0c2fc4cc4b6c4666b2ce89d92%7C0%7C0%7C637096965169378977&sdata=737NTYYsvQ5f7bk6ew7kE551vE%2FWwTBxT3fkTadE%2FQk%3D&reserved=0> For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas mailto:sdoug...@ieee.org>> Mike Cantwell mailto:mcantw...@ieee.org>> For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org>> David Heald mailto:dhe...@gmail.com>> - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald:
[PSES] 80/80 rule
Can someone tell me when the 80/80 rule was introduced into CISPR standards and if possible, a bit more detail than just the date, please? -- Best wishes John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only J M Woodgate and Associates www.woodjohn.uk Rayleigh, Essex UK - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald:
The 80-80 Rule ...
For the sake of argument, given: 1. Let's say the limit I'm testing to is 50 dBuV. 3. Measurement error is say +/- 3 dB, so my tolerance is 53 dB to 47 dB. 2. I test 10 products against that limit. 4. 8 products test well below 47 dB. Therefore I'm absolutely sure thosee 8 do indeed pass. Several questions ... 1. Specifically who came up with this criteria? 2. Why did they pick 80 percent confidence? 3. What does 80 percent confidence mean? 4. Given the situation above, exactly what would one measure to be 70 percent or 80 percent or 90 percent confident for the remaining 2 products? Regards, Doug McKean _ On the road to retirement? Check out MSN Life Events for advice on how to get there! http://lifeevents.msn.com/category.aspx?cid=Retirement This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list.Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/listserv/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
RE: 80/80 rule
With out quoting but to cover the majority, In the instance of a complaint or dispute, actual measured data will take precedence. Past data from the initial DoC will be reviewed and may be compared to new data taken at the site selected by the investigating Authority. JOHN E. STUCKEY NCT EMC 002047 From: owner-emc-p...@listserv.ieee.org [mailto:owner-emc-p...@listserv.ieee.org] On Behalf Of C N Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2004 9:48 AM To: emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: RE: 80/80 rule Hi John and all, This particular quote I could interpret to mean that as long as I have some quality procedure in place which verifies that the production construction of said product is identical to what was tested, that that is sufficient and necessary for complaince and I don't need to do emissions testing. The quote below refers to " ... the manufacturing process ... ". Regards, Doug McKean >From: "John Allen" > >This is very general and says that "The manufacturer takes all necessary >measures in order to ascertain that the manufacturing process ensures >compliance of the manufacturer's products with the applicable protection >requirements of the Directive as described in the declaration of >conformity." _ On the road to retirement? Check out MSN Life Events for advice on how to get there! http://lifeevents.msn.com/category.aspx?cid=Retirement This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list.Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/listserv/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list.Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/listserv/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
RE: 80/80 rule
Hi John and all, This particular quote I could interpret to mean that as long as I have some quality procedure in place which verifies that the production construction of said product is identical to what was tested, that that is sufficient and necessary for complaince and I don't need to do emissions testing. The quote below refers to " ... the manufacturing process ... ". Regards, Doug McKean >From: "John Allen" > >This is very general and says that "The manufacturer takes all necessary >measures in order to ascertain that the manufacturing process ensures >compliance of the manufacturer's products with the applicable protection >requirements of the Directive as described in the declaration of >conformity." _ On the road to retirement? Check out MSN Life Events for advice on how to get there! http://lifeevents.msn.com/category.aspx?cid=Retirement This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list.Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/listserv/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
RE: 80/80 rule
Hi Folks
I was actually spending a little time looking into the subject of the
documentation of EMC controls during manufacture when the question cropped up.
I think it stems not from the exact wording of the Directive itself , but from
the Commission Guidance documentation, which you can find on the DG3 website
at http://europa.eu.int/comm/enterprise/electr_equipment/emc/guides/index.htm
In particular, the 4th paragraph of Section 8.1 of Chapter 8, which is here
http://europa.eu.int/comm/enterprise/electr_equipment/emc/guides/chapeigh.htm
This is very general and says that "The manufacturer takes all necessary
measures in order to ascertain that the manufacturing process ensures
compliance of the manufacturer's products with the applicable protection
requirements of the Directive as described in the declaration of conformity."
You then have to start looking at the interpretation of the "all necessary
measures" bit, and the application of relevant specific harmonised standards -
as quoted below. That, in turn, appears to have resulted in a lot of "best
estimates" of the risks involved.
Presumably the CISPR/CENELEC experts came to the 80/80 rule conclusion many
years ago, as a a reasonable compromise between the ideal requirement for
everything to comply all the time, and the realistic view that the limits were
pretty tight anyway, so a high statistical level of compliance would be
adequate in the majority of cases. I am sure someone can enlighten us on this
point!
Regards
John Allen
ERA Technology Ltd
From: Pettit, Ghery [ mailto:ghery.pet...@intel.com]
Sent: 09 November 2004 17:20
To: dan.ir...@sun.com
Cc: Gordon,Ian; IEEE EMC-PSTC GROUP
Subject: RE: 80/80 rule
It's also mentioned in CISPR 22 / EN 55022, but the option of testing a
single sample is also allowed. And the question was about where in the
EMC Directive it is called out, and I don't see it anywhere in that
document.
Ghery
From: DANIEL IRISH [ mailto:dan.ir...@sun.com]
Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2004 9:17 AM
To: Pettit, Ghery
Cc: Gordon,Ian; IEEE EMC-PSTC GROUP
Subject: Re: 80/80 rule
All,
This is specified in the following:
CISPR 16-3 Specification for radio disturbance and immunity
measuring apparatus and methods - Part 3:
CISPR technical reports
CISPR/A/446/CD Addition to CISPR 16-3, Clause 2: Statistics;
New sub clause 2.5: Rules for applying the
statistical 80/80 rule and use of
partial frequency ranges.
However, I believe these are unratified standards, not listed
in the Official Journal.
Regards,
Dan
Pettit, Ghery wrote:
> None that I can find.
>
> Ghery S. Pettit
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: owner-emc-p...@listserv.ieee.org
> [ mailto:owner-emc-p...@listserv.ieee.org] On Behalf Of Gordon,Ian
> Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2004 7:59 AM
> To: 'IEEE EMC-PSTC GROUP'
> Subject: 80/80 rule
>
> All
> Does anyone know which clause in the EMC directive calls for
application
> of
> the "80/80 rule" during serial production?
>
> Ian Gordon
>
>
***
> This email is confidential and intended solely for the use of the
> individual to whom it is addressed. Any views or opinions presented
are
> solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of
the
> BOC Group plc or any of its affiliates. If you are not the intended
> recipient, be advised that you have received this email in error and
> that any use, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or copying of this
> email is strictly prohibited. If you have received this email in error
> please return the message to the sender by replying to it and then
> delete the message from your computer.
>
> This footnote also confirms that this email message has been checked
by
> anti-virus software for the presence of computer viruses. However, the
> BOC Group plc or any of its affiliates accepts no responsibility for
any
> virus or defect that might arise from opening this e-mail or
> attachments.
>
>
> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society
> emc-pstc discussion list.Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
>
> To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org
>
> Instructions:
http://listserv.ieee.org/listserv/request/user-guide.html
>
> List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html
>
> For help, send mail to the list administrators:
>
> Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com
> Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net
>
> For policy questions, send m
RE: 80/80 rule
Hi Folks
I was actually spending a little time looking into the subject of the
documentation of EMC controls during manufacture when the question cropped up.
I think it stems not from the exact wording of the Directive itself , but from
the Commission Guidance documentation, which you can find on the DG3 website
at http://europa.eu.int/comm/enterprise/electr_equipment/emc/guides/index.htm
In particular, the 4th paragraph of Section 8.1 of Chapter 8, which is here
http://europa.eu.int/comm/enterprise/electr_equipment/emc/guides/chapeigh.htm
This is very general and says that "The manufacturer takes all necessary
measures in order to ascertain that the manufacturing process ensures
compliance of the manufacturer's products with the applicable protection
requirements of the Directive as described in the declaration of conformity."
You then have to start looking at the interpretation of the "all necessary
measures" bit, and the application of relevant specific harmonised standards -
as quoted below. That, in turn, appears to have resulted in a lot of "best
estimates" of the risks involved.
Presumably the CISPR/CENELEC experts came to the 80/80 rule conclusion many
years ago, as a a reasonable compromise between the ideal requirement for
everything to comply all the time, and the realistic view that the limits were
pretty tight anyway, so a high statistical level of compliance would be
adequate in the majority of cases. I am sure someone can enlighten us on this
point!
Regards
John Allen
ERA Technology Ltd
From: Pettit, Ghery [ mailto:ghery.pet...@intel.com]
Sent: 09 November 2004 17:20
To: dan.ir...@sun.com
Cc: Gordon,Ian; IEEE EMC-PSTC GROUP
Subject: RE: 80/80 rule
It's also mentioned in CISPR 22 / EN 55022, but the option of testing a
single sample is also allowed. And the question was about where in the
EMC Directive it is called out, and I don't see it anywhere in that
document.
Ghery
From: DANIEL IRISH [ mailto:dan.ir...@sun.com]
Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2004 9:17 AM
To: Pettit, Ghery
Cc: Gordon,Ian; IEEE EMC-PSTC GROUP
Subject: Re: 80/80 rule
All,
This is specified in the following:
CISPR 16-3 Specification for radio disturbance and immunity
measuring apparatus and methods - Part 3:
CISPR technical reports
CISPR/A/446/CD Addition to CISPR 16-3, Clause 2: Statistics;
New sub clause 2.5: Rules for applying the
statistical 80/80 rule and use of
partial frequency ranges.
However, I believe these are unratified standards, not listed
in the Official Journal.
Regards,
Dan
Pettit, Ghery wrote:
> None that I can find.
>
> Ghery S. Pettit
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: owner-emc-p...@listserv.ieee.org
> [ mailto:owner-emc-p...@listserv.ieee.org] On Behalf Of Gordon,Ian
> Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2004 7:59 AM
> To: 'IEEE EMC-PSTC GROUP'
> Subject: 80/80 rule
>
> All
> Does anyone know which clause in the EMC directive calls for
application
> of
> the "80/80 rule" during serial production?
>
> Ian Gordon
>
>
***
> This email is confidential and intended solely for the use of the
> individual to whom it is addressed. Any views or opinions presented
are
> solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of
the
> BOC Group plc or any of its affiliates. If you are not the intended
> recipient, be advised that you have received this email in error and
> that any use, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or copying of this
> email is strictly prohibited. If you have received this email in error
> please return the message to the sender by replying to it and then
> delete the message from your computer.
>
> This footnote also confirms that this email message has been checked
by
> anti-virus software for the presence of computer viruses. However, the
> BOC Group plc or any of its affiliates accepts no responsibility for
any
> virus or defect that might arise from opening this e-mail or
> attachments.
>
>
> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society
> emc-pstc discussion list.Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
>
> To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org
>
> Instructions:
http://listserv.ieee.org/listserv/request/user-guide.html
>
> List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html
>
> For help, send mail to the list administrators:
>
> Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com
> Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net
>
> For policy questions, send m
RE: 80/80 rule
Just FYI. It also appears in the VCCI Documents - but that document doesn't
directly relate back to the European requirements.
Gary
From: Pettit, Ghery [mailto:ghery.pet...@intel.com]
Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2004 9:20 AM
To: dan.ir...@sun.com
Cc: Gordon,Ian; IEEE EMC-PSTC GROUP
Subject: RE: 80/80 rule
It's also mentioned in CISPR 22 / EN 55022, but the option of testing a
single sample is also allowed. And the question was about where in the EMC
Directive it is called out, and I don't see it anywhere in that document.
Ghery
From: DANIEL IRISH [mailto:dan.ir...@sun.com]
Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2004 9:17 AM
To: Pettit, Ghery
Cc: Gordon,Ian; IEEE EMC-PSTC GROUP
Subject: Re: 80/80 rule
All,
This is specified in the following:
CISPR 16-3 Specification for radio disturbance and immunity
measuring apparatus and methods - Part 3:
CISPR technical reports
CISPR/A/446/CD Addition to CISPR 16-3, Clause 2: Statistics;
New sub clause 2.5: Rules for applying the
statistical 80/80 rule and use of
partial frequency ranges.
However, I believe these are unratified standards, not listed in the
Official Journal.
Regards,
Dan
Pettit, Ghery wrote:
> None that I can find.
>
> Ghery S. Pettit
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: owner-emc-p...@listserv.ieee.org
> [mailto:owner-emc-p...@listserv.ieee.org] On Behalf Of Gordon,Ian
> Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2004 7:59 AM
> To: 'IEEE EMC-PSTC GROUP'
> Subject: 80/80 rule
>
> All
> Does anyone know which clause in the EMC directive calls for
application
> of
> the "80/80 rule" during serial production?
>
> Ian Gordon
>
>
***
> This email is confidential and intended solely for the use of the
> individual to whom it is addressed. Any views or opinions presented
are
> solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of
the
> BOC Group plc or any of its affiliates. If you are not the intended
> recipient, be advised that you have received this email in error and
> that any use, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or copying of this
> email is strictly prohibited. If you have received this email in error
> please return the message to the sender by replying to it and then
> delete the message from your computer.
>
> This footnote also confirms that this email message has been checked
by
> anti-virus software for the presence of computer viruses. However, the
> BOC Group plc or any of its affiliates accepts no responsibility for
any
> virus or defect that might arise from opening this e-mail or
> attachments.
>
>
> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society
> emc-pstc discussion list.Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
>
> To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org
>
> Instructions:
http://listserv.ieee.org/listserv/request/user-guide.html
>
> List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html
>
> For help, send mail to the list administrators:
>
> Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com
> Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net
>
> For policy questions, send mail to:
>
> Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org
> Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org
>
> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
>
> http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
>
>
> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society
> emc-pstc discussion list.Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
>
> To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org
>
> Instructions:
http://listserv.ieee.org/listserv/request/user-guide.html
>
> List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html
>
> For help, send mail to the list administrators:
>
> Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com
> Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net
>
> For policy questions, send mail to:
>
> Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org
> Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org
>
> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
>
> http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society
emc-pstc discussion list.Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org
Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/listserv/request/user-guide.html
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html
For help,
RE: 80/80 rule
It's also mentioned in CISPR 22 / EN 55022, but the option of testing a single sample is also allowed. And the question was about where in the EMC Directive it is called out, and I don't see it anywhere in that document. Ghery From: DANIEL IRISH [mailto:dan.ir...@sun.com] Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2004 9:17 AM To: Pettit, Ghery Cc: Gordon,Ian; IEEE EMC-PSTC GROUP Subject: Re: 80/80 rule All, This is specified in the following: CISPR 16-3 Specification for radio disturbance and immunity measuring apparatus and methods - Part 3: CISPR technical reports CISPR/A/446/CD Addition to CISPR 16-3, Clause 2: Statistics; New sub clause 2.5: Rules for applying the statistical 80/80 rule and use of partial frequency ranges. However, I believe these are unratified standards, not listed in the Official Journal. Regards, Dan Pettit, Ghery wrote: > None that I can find. > > Ghery S. Pettit > > > -Original Message- > From: owner-emc-p...@listserv.ieee.org > [mailto:owner-emc-p...@listserv.ieee.org] On Behalf Of Gordon,Ian > Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2004 7:59 AM > To: 'IEEE EMC-PSTC GROUP' > Subject: 80/80 rule > > All > Does anyone know which clause in the EMC directive calls for application > of > the "80/80 rule" during serial production? > > Ian Gordon > > *** > This email is confidential and intended solely for the use of the > individual to whom it is addressed. Any views or opinions presented are > solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of the > BOC Group plc or any of its affiliates. If you are not the intended > recipient, be advised that you have received this email in error and > that any use, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or copying of this > email is strictly prohibited. If you have received this email in error > please return the message to the sender by replying to it and then > delete the message from your computer. > > This footnote also confirms that this email message has been checked by > anti-virus software for the presence of computer viruses. However, the > BOC Group plc or any of its affiliates accepts no responsibility for any > virus or defect that might arise from opening this e-mail or > attachments. > > > This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society > emc-pstc discussion list.Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ > > To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org > > Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/listserv/request/user-guide.html > > List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html > > For help, send mail to the list administrators: > > Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com > Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net > > For policy questions, send mail to: > > Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org > Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org > > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: > > http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc > > > This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society > emc-pstc discussion list.Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ > > To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org > > Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/listserv/request/user-guide.html > > List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html > > For help, send mail to the list administrators: > > Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com > Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net > > For policy questions, send mail to: > > Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org > Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org > > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: > > http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list.Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/listserv/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
Re: 80/80 rule
All, This is specified in the following: CISPR 16-3 Specification for radio disturbance and immunity measuring apparatus and methods - Part 3: CISPR technical reports CISPR/A/446/CD Addition to CISPR 16-3, Clause 2: Statistics; New sub clause 2.5: Rules for applying the statistical 80/80 rule and use of partial frequency ranges. However, I believe these are unratified standards, not listed in the Official Journal. Regards, Dan Pettit, Ghery wrote: > None that I can find. > > Ghery S. Pettit > > > -Original Message- > From: owner-emc-p...@listserv.ieee.org > [mailto:owner-emc-p...@listserv.ieee.org] On Behalf Of Gordon,Ian > Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2004 7:59 AM > To: 'IEEE EMC-PSTC GROUP' > Subject: 80/80 rule > > All > Does anyone know which clause in the EMC directive calls for application > of > the "80/80 rule" during serial production? > > Ian Gordon > > *** > This email is confidential and intended solely for the use of the > individual to whom it is addressed. Any views or opinions presented are > solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of the > BOC Group plc or any of its affiliates. If you are not the intended > recipient, be advised that you have received this email in error and > that any use, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or copying of this > email is strictly prohibited. If you have received this email in error > please return the message to the sender by replying to it and then > delete the message from your computer. > > This footnote also confirms that this email message has been checked by > anti-virus software for the presence of computer viruses. However, the > BOC Group plc or any of its affiliates accepts no responsibility for any > virus or defect that might arise from opening this e-mail or > attachments. > > > This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society > emc-pstc discussion list.Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ > > To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org > > Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/listserv/request/user-guide.html > > List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html > > For help, send mail to the list administrators: > > Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com > Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net > > For policy questions, send mail to: > > Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org > Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org > > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: > > http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc > > > This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society > emc-pstc discussion list.Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ > > To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org > > Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/listserv/request/user-guide.html > > List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html > > For help, send mail to the list administrators: > > Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com > Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net > > For policy questions, send mail to: > > Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org > Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org > > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: > > http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list.Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/listserv/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
RE: 80/80 rule
None that I can find. Ghery S. Pettit From: owner-emc-p...@listserv.ieee.org [mailto:owner-emc-p...@listserv.ieee.org] On Behalf Of Gordon,Ian Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2004 7:59 AM To: 'IEEE EMC-PSTC GROUP' Subject: 80/80 rule All Does anyone know which clause in the EMC directive calls for application of the "80/80 rule" during serial production? Ian Gordon *** This email is confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual to whom it is addressed. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of the BOC Group plc or any of its affiliates. If you are not the intended recipient, be advised that you have received this email in error and that any use, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or copying of this email is strictly prohibited. If you have received this email in error please return the message to the sender by replying to it and then delete the message from your computer. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been checked by anti-virus software for the presence of computer viruses. However, the BOC Group plc or any of its affiliates accepts no responsibility for any virus or defect that might arise from opening this e-mail or attachments. This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list.Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/listserv/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list.Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/listserv/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
80/80 rule
All Does anyone know which clause in the EMC directive calls for application of the "80/80 rule" during serial production? Ian Gordon *** This email is confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual to whom it is addressed. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of the BOC Group plc or any of its affiliates. If you are not the intended recipient, be advised that you have received this email in error and that any use, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or copying of this email is strictly prohibited. If you have received this email in error please return the message to the sender by replying to it and then delete the message from your computer. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been checked by anti-virus software for the presence of computer viruses. However, the BOC Group plc or any of its affiliates accepts no responsibility for any virus or defect that might arise from opening this e-mail or attachments. This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list.Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/listserv/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
Re: 80/80 Rule
I beg to disagree. The Binomial Distribution is done with replacement. The 80/80 rule is supposed to be done without replacement. Therefore, the only discrete distribution which satisfies the question - What is the probability that M samples of a sample population S will pass/fail when S is taken from a total population N with an expected pass/fail rate of P/F? without replacement is the HyperGeometric Distribution. In other words, the HyperGeometric Distribution answers the question - if your company makes a total of 100 products per month and you expect 20 of them to fail, what's the probability that 2 samples of a random sample of 10 being tested without replacement each month will also fail? The HyperGeometric Distribution says in such a scenerio that the chances 2 samples will fail are 31.8%. Also, the probability that 3 samples in the above given conditions will fail is 20.9%. Which makes for some odd interpretations. But in any event, even though you think you're working with an 80% success rate, you have only a 70% confidence level. Now, I'm certainly no statistical expert, but I believe the Binomial and Hypergeometric distributions become nearly equal in results only with large numbers. You can play around with this on Excel since the various distributions are built-in spreadsheet functions. - Doug --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.
80/80 Rule
Without going into the mathematics, you can demonstrate that your product meets an 80 / 80 requirement with eight units all of which meet the requirement. The mathematics is based upon the Binomial Distribution. The first 80 is the probability of success. The second 80 is the confidence that all units will meet the requirements with an 80 % probability of success. The mathematics makes no assumption on the distribution, for example, whether the test data has a normal (Gaussian) distribution. The Binomial Distribution, b(x;,n,p), is used to calculate the expected number of success in x out of n trials for a given p Probability of Success b(x;n,p) = ( (n!)*(p^n)*((1-p)^(n-x))/((x!) * ((n-x)!)) The Cummulative Binomial Distribution, B((x-1);n,p), is used to calculate the confidence demonstrated by x successes ofut of n trials for a give p Probabilityof Scccess. Here is a short table of results 1 unit tested, 1 unit passed, 50 % probability of success, 50 % confidence 2 units tested, 2 units passed, 60 % probabilityof success, 60 % confidence 3 units tested, 3 units passed, 65 % probability of success, 65 % confidence 4 units tested, 4 units passed, 70 % probability of success, 70 % confidence 5 units tested, 5 units passed, 75 % probability of success, 75 % confidence 8 units tested, 8 units passed, 80 % probability of success, 80 % confidence 14 units tested, 13 units passed, 80 % probability of success, 80 % confidence 21 units tested, 19 units passed, 80 % probability of success, 80 % confidence Best regards Bob Schlentz --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.
RE: 80/80 rule for euro compliance?
The 80/80 rule for compliance has some more implications then one might think. If the mean emission level of your products is f.a. at 100 Mhz on 29 dbuV/m and the standard deviation in your products is 5 dB, then this implicates that more then 20% of the production is exceeding the 30 dBuV/m limit. This may happen easily if the standard deviation is calculated from a few samples. If a series of 6 contains of the following values: 29,28,29,28,22,29 , then the 80/80 rule would FAIL ! Using the following series: 29,28,29,28,27,29 , the 80/80 rule would PASS As you may easily see, a full compliant series close to the limit may fail the 80/80 rule if extrapolated to a full production run. I have available for those interested a spread sheet for calculations of the 80 80 rule, i once downloaded from a site, upon instigation of one of this list's members. I do not remember who, how and where, but the author deserves the credit , not me ! May he (she) rise ! Regards, Gert Gremmen, (Ing) ce-test, qualified testing === Web presence http://www.cetest.nl CE-shop http://www.cetest.nl/ce_shop.htm /-/ Compliance testing is our core business /-/ === >>-Original Message- >>From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org >>[mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of >>geor...@lexmark.com >>Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2001 2:53 PM >>To: Gregg Kervill >>Cc: emc-p...@ieee.org >>Subject: RE: 80/80 rule for euro compliance? >> >> >> >> >> >>Actually, Vilfredo Pareto (1848-1923) was an Italian economist. >>He observed that 80% of the economy was driven by 20% of the >>consumers, i.e. 20% of the customers account for 80% of the >>turnover. >> >>Two decades ago I was involved in an effort to create a data bank >>of IBM typewriter service customers. Some customers (e.g. banks) >>owned many units, and placed many calls for service, while fewer >>calls came from individuals owning one machine. It became evident >>that 20% of the customers accounted for 80% of the service calls. >>The data base was set up to maintain the phone numbers of only the >>most active 20%, as this required 80% less computer space. When a >>call came in, the customer was asked for their phone number. If it >>was one of the 20%, the operator then saw a full screen of data as >>to the name, address and service history of the customer, saving >>time on the phone keying data. >> >>It would probably be correct to say that 80% of the work is done >>by 20% of the workers; however, it would still take 100% of effort >>to complete 100% of the work. >> >>George Alspaugh >> >> >> >> >>"Gregg Kervill" on 11/14/2001 >>08:03:00 AM >> >>Please respond to "Gregg Kervill" >> >> >>To: "'Doug McKean'" , >> "'EMC-PSTC Discussion Group'" >> >>cc:(bcc: George Alspaugh/Lex/Lexmark) >>Subject: RE: 80/80 rule for euro compliance? >> >> >> >> >>Liars, Damn Liars and . >> >> >> >>I sounds like the Pareto's law from management statistics "You >>can do 80% of >>the work with 20% of the effort..." >> >> >> >>I think someone requoted it once as "You an fool some of the people all of >>the time." >> >> >> >>Cynically yours Gregg >> >> >> >> >> >>--- >>This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety >>Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. >> >>Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ >> >>To cancel your subscription, send mail to: >> majord...@ieee.org >>with the single line: >> unsubscribe emc-pstc >> >>For help, send mail to the list administrators: >> Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org >> Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net >> >>For policy questions, send mail to: >> Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org >> Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org >> >>All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: >>No longer online until our new server is brought online and >>the old messages >>are imported into the new server. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>--- >>This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety >>Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. >> >>Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ >> >>To cancel your subscription, send mail to: >> majord...@ieee.org >>with the single line: >> unsubscribe emc-pstc >> >>For help, send mail to the list administrators: >> Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org >> Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net >> >>For policy questions, send mail to: >> Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org >> Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org >> >>All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: >>No longer online until our new server is brought online and >>the old messages are imported into the new server. >> >> <>
RE: 80/80 rule for euro compliance?
Actually, Vilfredo Pareto (1848-1923) was an Italian economist.
He observed that 80% of the economy was driven by 20% of the
consumers, i.e. 20% of the customers account for 80% of the
turnover.
Two decades ago I was involved in an effort to create a data bank
of IBM typewriter service customers. Some customers (e.g. banks)
owned many units, and placed many calls for service, while fewer
calls came from individuals owning one machine. It became evident
that 20% of the customers accounted for 80% of the service calls.
The data base was set up to maintain the phone numbers of only the
most active 20%, as this required 80% less computer space. When a
call came in, the customer was asked for their phone number. If it
was one of the 20%, the operator then saw a full screen of data as
to the name, address and service history of the customer, saving
time on the phone keying data.
It would probably be correct to say that 80% of the work is done
by 20% of the workers; however, it would still take 100% of effort
to complete 100% of the work.
George Alspaugh
"Gregg Kervill" on 11/14/2001
08:03:00 AM
Please respond to "Gregg Kervill"
To: "'Doug McKean'" ,
"'EMC-PSTC Discussion Group'"
cc: (bcc: George Alspaugh/Lex/Lexmark)
Subject: RE: 80/80 rule for euro compliance?
Liars, Damn Liars and .
I sounds like the Pareto's law from management statistics "You can do 80% of
the work with 20% of the effort..."
I think someone requoted it once as "You an fool some of the people all of
the time."
Cynically yours Gregg
---
This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety
Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list.
Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/
To cancel your subscription, send mail to:
majord...@ieee.org
with the single line:
unsubscribe emc-pstc
For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org
Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net
For policy questions, send mail to:
Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org
Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org
All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages
are imported into the new server.
---
This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety
Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list.
Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/
To cancel your subscription, send mail to:
majord...@ieee.org
with the single line:
unsubscribe emc-pstc
For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org
Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net
For policy questions, send mail to:
Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org
Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org
All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old
messages are imported into the new server.
RE: 80/80 rule for euro compliance?
Liars, Damn Liars and . I sounds like the Pareto's law from management statistics "You can do 80% of the work with 20% of the effort..." I think someone requoted it once as "You an fool some of the people all of the time." Cynically yours Gregg --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.
Re: 80/80 rule for euro compliance?
I read in !emc-pstc that John Shinn wrote (in <004301c16d2f$1286d000$0b3d1...@hadco.comsanmina.com>) about '80/80 rule for euro compliance?', on Wed, 14 Nov 2001: >OK - Lets settle if for all of you young folk. The 80/80 rule originated >in VDE 0871/6.78, section 4.1.4. I doubt that. It has been in CISPR documents (but not well-known ones) for a very long time. -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Eat mink and be dreary! --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.
RE: 80/80 rule for euro compliance?
OK - Lets settle if for all of you young folk. The 80/80 rule originated in VDE 0871/6.78, section 4.1.4. Regards, John Shinn, P.E. Manager, Lab. Operations Sanmina -Original Message- From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org [mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of Lou Guerin Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2001 8:45 AM To: 'Chris Maxwell'; David Heald; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: RE: 80/80 rule for euro compliance? Chris, David, I just checked CISPR 22:1997 and this shows up in Section 7.1.2, they go into quite a bit of detail. Regards, Lou Guerin Littlefeet, Inc. www.littlefeet-inc.com -Original Message- From: Chris Maxwell [mailto:chris.maxw...@nettest.com] Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2001 5:21 AM To: David Heald; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: RE: 80/80 rule for euro compliance? I have seen this in Section 6 of EN 55011:1990 Section 8 of EN 55022:1995 I'm not sure if there are any plans to remove these references from newer versions of these standards. Best regards, Chris > -Original Message- > From: David Heald [SMTP:davehe...@mediaone.net] > Sent: Monday, November 12, 2001 3:59 PM > To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org > Subject: 80/80 rule for euro compliance? > > > Greetings all, > I remember hearing somewhere (& it seems that I found the answer > somewhere but I can't remember) that there is a stipulation for > European > compliance that one should have 80% certainty that 80% of one's > products > are compliant. I have no idea where this idea originally came from or > what standards it may apply to. > > Can anyone out there help me out? > > Dave > > --- > This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety > Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. > > Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ > > To cancel your subscription, send mail to: > majord...@ieee.org > with the single line: > unsubscribe emc-pstc > > For help, send mail to the list administrators: > Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org > Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net > > For policy questions, send mail to: > Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org > Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org > > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: > No longer online until our new server is brought online and the > old messages are imported into the new server. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.
Re: 80/80 rule for euro compliance?
I read in !emc-pstc that Doug McKean wrote (in <007501c16cba$d2481220$3e3e3...@corp.auspex.com>) about '80/80 rule for euro compliance?', on Tue, 13 Nov 2001: >I have never liked the 80-80 Rule as liberal as some may >think it is. I've even toyed with the idea of writing a paper >about it, but I think I'd go to sleep writing it, let alone >presenting it. > >If you take the basic premise statistically and work out the >numbers yourself, you will surprised at the results. > >Say you have a given a total population of 100 products. >In that total population, you expect 20 products to fail. >Now, you take 5 samples from that population and >calculate the probability of failure. > >The chances of 1 product failing in the 5 samples drawn >is 42%. The probability of 2 products failing from 5 samples >in the above example is 21%. > >IOW, you have a 1 in 5 chance of failing the 80-80 Rule >by following it. That's bad. And if your company is into >the practice of shipping relatively small amounts of product, >that can be bad also. This is what happens if you apply the 80/80 rule to small numbers of product. It's really applicable only to high-volume production (mostly consumer) products, where some statistical criterion has to be set to eliminate the need for 100% testing. -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Eat mink and be dreary! --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.
Re: 80/80 rule for euro compliance?
I have never liked the 80-80 Rule as liberal as some may think it is. I've even toyed with the idea of writing a paper about it, but I think I'd go to sleep writing it, let alone presenting it. If you take the basic premise statistically and work out the numbers yourself, you will surprised at the results. Say you have a given a total population of 100 products. In that total population, you expect 20 products to fail. Now, you take 5 samples from that population and calculate the probability of failure. The chances of 1 product failing in the 5 samples drawn is 42%. The probability of 2 products failing from 5 samples in the above example is 21%. IOW, you have a 1 in 5 chance of failing the 80-80 Rule by following it. That's bad. And if your company is into the practice of shipping relatively small amounts of product, that can be bad also. - Doug McKean --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.
RE: 80/80 rule for euro compliance?
Chris, David, I just checked CISPR 22:1997 and this shows up in Section 7.1.2, they go into quite a bit of detail. Regards, Lou Guerin Littlefeet, Inc. www.littlefeet-inc.com -Original Message- From: Chris Maxwell [mailto:chris.maxw...@nettest.com] Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2001 5:21 AM To: David Heald; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject:RE: 80/80 rule for euro compliance? I have seen this in Section 6 of EN 55011:1990 Section 8 of EN 55022:1995 I'm not sure if there are any plans to remove these references from newer versions of these standards. Best regards, Chris > -Original Message- > From: David Heald [SMTP:davehe...@mediaone.net] > Sent: Monday, November 12, 2001 3:59 PM > To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org > Subject: 80/80 rule for euro compliance? > > > Greetings all, > I remember hearing somewhere (& it seems that I found the answer > somewhere but I can't remember) that there is a stipulation for > European > compliance that one should have 80% certainty that 80% of one's > products > are compliant. I have no idea where this idea originally came from or > what standards it may apply to. > > Can anyone out there help me out? > > Dave > > --- > This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety > Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. > > Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ > > To cancel your subscription, send mail to: > majord...@ieee.org > with the single line: > unsubscribe emc-pstc > > For help, send mail to the list administrators: > Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org > Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net > > For policy questions, send mail to: > Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org > Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org > > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: > No longer online until our new server is brought online and the > old messages are imported into the new server. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.
Re: 80/80 rule for euro compliance?
I read in !emc-pstc that Dan Irish - Sun BOS Hardware wrote (in <2000.RAA05232@st- ides.East.Sun.COM>) about '80/80 rule for euro compliance?', on Mon, 12 Nov 2001: >As I recall, this used to be in CISPR16 "...Radio Interference Measuring >Apparatus and Methods," section 9. >In later versions of CISPR16, this requirement was mysteriously Not mysteriously, but not everyone in the world was told about it; that didn't seem necessary. (;-) >deleted from CISPR16, and section 9 became "Reserved for future use." >I have the old version of CISPR16 buried in my paper files >somewhere. CISPR 16 is a Basic Standard, covering methods of measurement and other product-independent matters. It is now in three Parts, CISPR16-1, -2 and -3. The subject is now dealt with in much greater detail in CISPR16-3. >For ITE, CISPR16 was obsoleted by CISPR22. Not at all. CISPR 22 is a Product Family Standard, that refers to CISPR16 Parts where necessary. -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Eat mink and be dreary! --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.
Re: 80/80 rule for euro compliance?
I read in !emc-pstc that David Heald wrote (in <3bf037f8.c93b8...@mediaone.net>) about '80/80 rule for euro compliance?', on Mon, 12 Nov 2001: > I remember hearing somewhere (& it seems that I found the answer >somewhere but I can't remember) that there is a stipulation for European >compliance that one should have 80% certainty that 80% of one's products >are compliant. I have no idea where this idea originally came from or >what standards it may apply to. > >Can anyone out there help me out? It's not peculiar to Europe, it's in many CISPR *international* standards, and thus appears in the corresponding (but not necessarily identical) EN 550xx series of European standards. -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Eat mink and be dreary! --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.
RE: 80/80 rule for euro compliance?
I have seen this in Section 6 of EN 55011:1990 Section 8 of EN 55022:1995 I'm not sure if there are any plans to remove these references from newer versions of these standards. Best regards, Chris > -Original Message- > From: David Heald [SMTP:davehe...@mediaone.net] > Sent: Monday, November 12, 2001 3:59 PM > To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org > Subject: 80/80 rule for euro compliance? > > > Greetings all, > I remember hearing somewhere (& it seems that I found the answer > somewhere but I can't remember) that there is a stipulation for > European > compliance that one should have 80% certainty that 80% of one's > products > are compliant. I have no idea where this idea originally came from or > what standards it may apply to. > > Can anyone out there help me out? > > Dave > > --- > This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety > Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. > > Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ > > To cancel your subscription, send mail to: > majord...@ieee.org > with the single line: > unsubscribe emc-pstc > > For help, send mail to the list administrators: > Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org > Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net > > For policy questions, send mail to: > Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org > Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org > > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: > No longer online until our new server is brought online and the > old messages are imported into the new server. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.
RE: 80/80 rule for euro compliance?
It is implied by the statistical analysis of a sample population during formal conformity assessment. Reference EN 55022:1998 Clause 7 (7.2.3) Regards, JOHN E. STUCKEY EMC Engineer NCT EMC 002047 Micron Technology, Inc. Quality and Reliability Assurance EMC Group M/S 941 3176 S. Denver Way Boise, Idaho 83705 PH: (208) 363.5313 FX: (208) 333.7302 jestuc...@micron.com -Original Message- From: Dan Irish - Sun BOS Hardware [mailto:dan.ir...@sun.com] Sent: Monday, November 12, 2001 15:24 To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Re: 80/80 rule for euro compliance? Dave, As I recall, this used to be in CISPR16 "...Radio Interference Measuring Apparatus and Methods," section 9. In later versions of CISPR16, this requirement was mysteriously deleted from CISPR16, and section 9 became "Reserved for future use." I have the old version of CISPR16 buried in my paper files somewhere. For ITE, CISPR16 was obsoleted by CISPR22. The VCCI "audit" requirements per V-3/2000.04 were taken almost verbatim from this. Dan > Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 15:58:32 -0500 > From: David Heald > X-Accept-Language: en > MIME-Version: 1.0 > To: "emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org" > Subject: 80/80 rule for euro compliance? > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > X-Resent-To: Multiple Recipients > X-Listname: emc-pstc > X-Info: Help requests to emc-pstc-requ...@majordomo.ieee.org > X-Info: [Un]Subscribe requests to majord...@majordomo.ieee.org > X-Moderator-Address: emc-pstc-appro...@majordomo.ieee.org > > > Greetings all, > I remember hearing somewhere (& it seems that I found the answer > somewhere but I can't remember) that there is a stipulation for European > compliance that one should have 80% certainty that 80% of one's products > are compliant. I have no idea where this idea originally came from or > what standards it may apply to. > > Can anyone out there help me out? > > Dave > > --- > This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety > Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. > > Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ > > To cancel your subscription, send mail to: > majord...@ieee.org > with the single line: > unsubscribe emc-pstc > > For help, send mail to the list administrators: > Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org > Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net > > For policy questions, send mail to: > Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org > Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org > > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: > No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.
Re: 80/80 rule for euro compliance?
Hi All It is in CISPR 16-3 2000. Also in Goedbloed's EMC textbook (don't have bibliog. info handy), and Dvorak's 1981 IEEE EMC Symp paper. Subj: Re: 80/80 rule for euro compliance? List-Post: emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org Date: 11/12/2001 5:29:24 PM Eastern Standard Time From: dan.ir...@sun.com (Dan Irish - Sun BOS Hardware) To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Dave, As I recall, this used to be in CISPR16 "...Radio Interference Measuring Apparatus and Methods," section 9. In later versions of CISPR16, this requirement was mysteriously deleted from CISPR16, and section 9 became "Reserved for future use." I have the old version of CISPR16 buried in my paper files somewhere. For ITE, CISPR16 was obsoleted by CISPR22. The VCCI "audit" requirements per V-3/2000.04 were taken almost verbatim from this. Dan > Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 15:58:32 -0500 > From: David Heald > To: "emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org" > Subject: 80/80 rule for euro compliance? > > > Greetings all, > I remember hearing somewhere (& it seems that I found the answer > somewhere but I can't remember) that there is a stipulation for European > compliance that one should have 80% certainty that 80% of one's products > are compliant. I have no idea where this idea originally came from or > what standards it may apply to. > > Can anyone out there help me out? > > Dave > --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.
Re: 80/80 rule for euro compliance?
Dave, As I recall, this used to be in CISPR16 "...Radio Interference Measuring Apparatus and Methods," section 9. In later versions of CISPR16, this requirement was mysteriously deleted from CISPR16, and section 9 became "Reserved for future use." I have the old version of CISPR16 buried in my paper files somewhere. For ITE, CISPR16 was obsoleted by CISPR22. The VCCI "audit" requirements per V-3/2000.04 were taken almost verbatim from this. Dan > Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 15:58:32 -0500 > From: David Heald > X-Accept-Language: en > MIME-Version: 1.0 > To: "emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org" > Subject: 80/80 rule for euro compliance? > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > X-Resent-To: Multiple Recipients > X-Listname: emc-pstc > X-Info: Help requests to emc-pstc-requ...@majordomo.ieee.org > X-Info: [Un]Subscribe requests to majord...@majordomo.ieee.org > X-Moderator-Address: emc-pstc-appro...@majordomo.ieee.org > > > Greetings all, > I remember hearing somewhere (& it seems that I found the answer > somewhere but I can't remember) that there is a stipulation for European > compliance that one should have 80% certainty that 80% of one's products > are compliant. I have no idea where this idea originally came from or > what standards it may apply to. > > Can anyone out there help me out? > > Dave > > --- > This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety > Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. > > Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ > > To cancel your subscription, send mail to: > majord...@ieee.org > with the single line: > unsubscribe emc-pstc > > For help, send mail to the list administrators: > Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org > Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net > > For policy questions, send mail to: > Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org > Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org > > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: > No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.
80/80 rule for euro compliance?
Greetings all, I remember hearing somewhere (& it seems that I found the answer somewhere but I can't remember) that there is a stipulation for European compliance that one should have 80% certainty that 80% of one's products are compliant. I have no idea where this idea originally came from or what standards it may apply to. Can anyone out there help me out? Dave --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.
80/80 rule
C'mon Group, There must be more than one of you doing series production testing? I am struggling to find hard data relating to the percentage of products tested per batch, and the frequency of testing in accordance with Section 7 of EN 55022. Is there anyone out there with a Gameplan? Cheers, Carlos. - This message is coming from the emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to majord...@ieee.org with the single line: "unsubscribe emc-pstc" (without the quotes). For help, send mail to ed.pr...@cubic.com, jim_bac...@monarch.com, ri...@sdd.hp.com, or roger.volgst...@compaq.com (the list administrators).
80/80 rule explanation offerred
Group, Here is a reply from Monrad Monsen For those that went to the 98 Denver EMC Conference Monrad presented a Measurement Uncertainty Workshop. He is also a Certified Quality Engineer and teaches a stats course. Please direct any furthur questions directly to him. Posted for Monrad Monsen Mr. Selva, You have asked an interesting question. I am not aware of too many companies that have time (and money) to perform testing required for the 80/80 calculations. Therefore, I can only answer your question from an academic perspective as opposed to industry trends. > How do you perform this calculation ? Assuming you are measuring the same worst-case maximized frequency, you may do the 80/80 calculations based on the margin from the limit with the same statistical accuracy as if you had used the measured emission levels. The arithmetic mean (average) of the margin is calculated with the normal method giving a passing negative average margin from the limit, and the standard deviation is also calculated using the same formula as listed in the standard. Then the compliance is judged from the following relationship gained from the standard: (x-bar) + (k)(s) <= 0 (x-bar) + ks * 0 Where "x-bar" is the arithmetic mean (average) which should be negative, "s" is the standard deviation, "k" is from the table in CISPR 22, and "L" is 0 since you are calculating the statistics for margins where negative margin meets the standard. Of course, if the arithmetic mean (average) is actually over the limit (i.e. positive margin), then there is no need for any further calculation since it fails. In fact, I would contend that performing this 80/80 calculation using the margins actually makes the calculation more meaningful to the customer since he really wants to know by how much does his product pass or how much comfort should he have regarding emissions for his product. > On which value do you perform it (margin, level, azimuth, height of antenna, ...) ? The 80/80 calculation can only be calculated on the measured result (either a measured level or a margin) as compared to a standard. If you calculate the 80/80 using margins, then the standard is L=0 (i.e. the standard is the same as a zero margin). To take a measurement, you must maximize the emission using the same procedure for each sample including maximizing azimuth, the height of the antenna, and the cable layout. It is meaningless to do statistics on the azimuth or height of antenna since these are merely a part of the measurement process, and there is no agency standard regarding these values. I hope this helps. Monrad L. Monsen Senior EMC Engineer Product Compliance 303.673.2438 phone 303.673.2431 fax StorageTek INFORMATION made POWERFUL > -Original Message- > From: Grasso, Charles (Chaz) > Sent: Thursday, August 26, 1999 6:23 PM > To: SAFETY-EMC (Adresse de messagerie); 'Pierre Selva' > Cc: Monsen, Monrad L > Subject: RE: 80/80 calculation rules for CISPR22/EN55022 > > Hello, > I have taken the liberty of forwarding this to > Mr Monsen of StorageTek. He presented a > Measurement Uncertainty course at the Denver > 1998 EMC Symposium & is a stats instructor. > > Thank you > Charles Grasso > StorageTek > 2270 Sth 88th Street > Louisville CO 80027 > Tel: (303)673-2908 > Fax(303)661-7115 > > > -- > From: Pierre Selva[SMTP:actionsmesu...@compuserve.com] > Sent: Thursday, August 26, 1999 8:12 AM > To: SAFETY-EMC (Adresse de messagerie) > Subject:80/80 calculation rules for CISPR22/EN55022 > > > Dear colleagues, > > My subject of interest is the statistical rule explain in chapter > 9.2 of EN55022 (also called the 80/80). Reading the standard, I don't know > on which value I have to apply the rule. > In fact, I usually apply the rule on each suspect frequency (about 5 > by product) and I compare the calculated LEVEL to the Limit, in dBµV. > > One of my customer is asking me to make this calculation on the > MARGIN. For each product, I have to take the worst margin, and I make the > calculation for the x products I have. The calcul gives a result which has > to be compare to 0 (zero). The resulting margin has to be less than 0. > > How do you perform this calculation ? > On which value do you perform it (margin, level, azimuth, height of > antenna, ...) ? > What are your own experience with your products or your customer ? > > In advance, I thank you a lot for your answer, which, I'm sure, will > be of great value (80/80 calculation, of course !!) > > Best regards, > > Pierre Selva > Laboratory responsible EMC and Safety laboratory > SMEE Actions MesuresPh : 33 4 76 65 76 50 > ZI des Blanchiss
