Re: [Emc-users] Spindle positioning in degrees

[Stuart Stevenson]

On Fri, Nov 20, 2009 at 10:26 PM, Leonardo Marsaglia <
leonardomarsagli...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hello guys, i've already asked something similar in the forum but this is a
> simpler..
>
> I read about the retrofit of the mazak that some of the guys made, and i'm
> making tests with an AC motor with a vfd and an encoder..
>
> So i was wondering if i can make the spindle turn and stop in a given
> angle?
>
>
> It would be could if i can make the spindle turn degree by degree, but i
> don't see a gcode to do that.
>
> I think most machines that position the spindle will reconfigure the system
to use the spindle as a C axis. Then they can command the C axis angle for
position.


> Well thanks in advance for your attention. :)
>
> Regards.
>
> Leonardo.
>
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Re: [Emc-users] Spindle positioning in degrees

[Jon Elson]

Leonardo Marsaglia wrote:
> So i was wondering if i can make the spindle turn and stop in a given angle?
>
>
> It would be could if i can make the spindle turn degree by degree, but i
> don't see a gcode to do that.
>   
Some machines need to orient the spindle so that a tool changer can 
correctly
insert a toolholder.  That was what was needed on the Mazak.  So, it 
didn't need to
resist torques, just to deliver the spindle to that angle.  If you want 
to turn a spindle
to a specified angle, then it is a "C" axis, not a spindle.  Some 
machines, especially
lathes with live tooling do this.  I think it could be done with EMC 
with a little trickery
at the HAL level.  You would likely have a pair of custom G-codes that would
switch between spindle mode and C axis mode.  A standard VFD would not be
very good for this, as they get sluggish right near zero speed.  A 
flux-vector
VFD (which costs more) is designed for this kind of operation.

The HAL trickery is to make EMC not see spindle movement as C axis motion
when the "spindle" is running, and so spindle speed commands would 
control it
in that mode.  It would then connect the VFD to the C axis control for C 
axis
positioning mode.

Jon


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[Stuart Stevenson]

  I am using a touch screen Chris brought. It uses ELO touch drivers.
  As of this afternoon I have just the X axis moving. The others are shut
off at the amp. I will work on them tomorrow. I am sure we will get the
others running good.
  This week I found a replacement head for the Y axis scale (the one we
worked on last summer) on ebay. I should get it the first part of next week.

On Fri, Nov 20, 2009 at 9:49 PM, Jon Elson  wrote:

> Stuart Stevenson wrote:
> > Gentlemen,
> >   Touchy (the touch screen interface) is now moving the G&L
> Cool!  Are you using the "MagicTouch" sensor on that, or a different
> touch panel?  I'm going to have to update a couple more machines and try
> this out.
>
> So, I take it you got the encoder problem finally fixed on that machine?
>
> Jon
>
>
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[Emc-users] Spindle positioning in degrees

[Leonardo Marsaglia]

Hello guys, i've already asked something similar in the forum but this is a
simpler..

I read about the retrofit of the mazak that some of the guys made, and i'm
making tests with an AC motor with a vfd and an encoder..

So i was wondering if i can make the spindle turn and stop in a given angle?


It would be could if i can make the spindle turn degree by degree, but i
don't see a gcode to do that.

Well thanks in advance for your attention. :)

Regards.

Leonardo.
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[Jon Elson]

Stuart Stevenson wrote:
> Gentlemen,
>   Touchy (the touch screen interface) is now moving the G&L
Cool!  Are you using the "MagicTouch" sensor on that, or a different
touch panel?  I'm going to have to update a couple more machines and try
this out.

So, I take it you got the encoder problem finally fixed on that machine?

Jon

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Re: [Emc-users] How Exactly does a Mister Work

[Jack]

I agree that welding is part of the complete process of manufacturing
with metals,
and understanding the effects of the chemistry (whether or not you
understand the
chemistry itself) is needed to turn out the 'best' products we can.

Oh, on the prior post, my friend does MIG almost exclusively, with the
AR and AR/CO2 mix.

><> ... Jack

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Re: [Emc-users] How Exactly does a Mister Work

[Mark Cason]

On 11/20/2009 05:27 PM, Jack wrote:
> A friend does argon for Aluminum, and a argon/co2 mix for most other.  Only
> because
> argon is a pretty inert gas.  But it is significantly more costly than CO2
> or the mix.
>> <>  ... Jack

   I agree with the cost issue, my 80 CuFt argon bottles cost me around 
$40.00 each to refill the last time I took them in, and they last me 
between 8, and 12 hrs of use each.

   I'm currently renting a 25/75-C02/AR mix bottle, which I rarely use, 
but when it's empty, I will be buying a couple of CO2 bottles, and 
machining a custom mixer valve, to interface with my argon bottles. 
That way, I can precisely meter the percentage of mix being used, and, 
my overhead will be lower, as I won't need to rent/buy different ratio 
mix bottles.

   The type of gas used is determined by the type of material, it's 
thickness, the type of filler wire being used, and the welding process.

   GTAW (TIG) uses argon only, heliarc uses helium, GMAW (MIG) uses 
argon, AR/CO2, or CO2.

   FCAW (flux-cored MIG), and  SMAW (Stick) uses no external shielding 
gas, because the flux creates it's own.

   You don't use just any old gas available, strong welds are the 
cornerstone of good welding practices.  Your welding wire will state 
which type of shielding gas is preferred, but the entire welding 
practice needs to be looked at as a whole.

   Helium is mainly used for heliarc welding, and gives very good welds 
that stand proud of the surface, and gives good penetration.  It is 
rarely used these days, mainly because of the exorbitant costs.

   Argon causes a weld bead to flow out, and can stand slightly proud of 
the surface, lay flat, or even depressed slightly below the surface, 
with very good penetration.  It is the only shielding gas used for TIG, 
but is frequently used for MIG.

   CO2 causes a weld bead to stand proud, giving a good fill, and decent 
penetration, but suffers from porosity problems.  It is rarely used, but 
works ok on mild steel over 3/8".

   AR/CO2 mix is a good compromise, as it allows a good buildup of a 
weld, gives good penetration, and reduces the amount of porosity in the 
weld.  It is the most common shielding gas for MIG on mild steel over 1/4".

   Flux-cored MIG is the most popular type of welding these days, but 
TIG is the most versatile.  You can pretty much TIG weld any type of 
metal, including copper, brass, titanium, etc...  Even highly reactive 
metals like magnesium can be TIG'd with proper shielding.  TIG is very 
much similar to oxy-welding, only with a arc, instead of a flame, and it 
doesn't suffer from warpage any where near as bad as oxy-welding.

   There are several other welding procedures, and I've probably taken 
this too far OT, but I consider welding to be a essential part of 
machining, because I generally machine sub-assemblies, and then weld 
them into finished parts.


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Re: [Emc-users] Introduction

[Stephen Wille Padnos]

Gene Heskett wrote:

>On Friday 20 November 2009, Chris Knowlton wrote:
>  
>
>>OK, I found the data sheets on the chip and I also found a couple of app
>>notes, which helped a bit, now I need some translation of the EMC tags
>>please
>>
>>Step Time: I assume this means the pulse width from rising edge to falling
>>edge?
>>
>>
>Or better, from falling edge to rising edge, there is more giddy up on a 
>logic  zero than in a logic one, so a logic zero is generally considered the 
>active state.
>  
>
While this is good advice for most electronics, keep in mind that the 
software step generator generates positive steps.  The step is assumed 
to occur on the rising edge of the stepgen output, and that is the edge 
that the direction changes are timed from.  If the driver board actually 
needs an active low signal, then the step output needs to be inverted 
(which is a checkbox on the port setup page if you're using stepconf)

>>Step Space:  I assume this is the smallest spacing between pulses that
>>should be sent?
>>
>>
>Something like that, and usually that is a lot faster than emc can send them 
>anyway.
>  
>
Stepspace is the setting you use to tell the step generator the minimum 
"off" time needed between steps.

>>Direction Hold:  I assume that this is the amount of time the direction
>>signal has to stay high to make the direction change?
>>
>>
>This one isn't clear to me.
>  
>
Not quite.  This is the amount of time that the direction line has to be 
held in the same state after a step has been issued.  Some drivers may 
need some time to sample the DIR line after a step arrives.  In 
addition, some drives with input step multipliers needed the DIR line to 
be high until all the "multiplied" steps were issued (some early Geckos 
are in this category).  The step multiplier would clock off 2, 5, or 10 
steps for every one that came in, but it didn't latch the direction line 
- that was a straight feed-through to the internal electronics.  If you 
changed the DIR line while the extra steps were being generated, some of 
them would go the wrong direction.

>>Direction Setup:  I have no idea what this is.
>>
>>
>Time a direction signal must be valid before a step should be sent.  Maybe..
>  
>
This is the amount of time after the direction line has been changed 
before the next step can be output.

Note that there is a complete stepgen timing diagram in the EMC2 manual 
which shows all of these parameters, and there is also additional 
information on the wiki, particularly here:



- Steve

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Re: [Emc-users] EMC at NAMES 2010 update

[Dale Grover]

I'll look into connectivity.  Last year someone loaned us a cell 
modem, the idea being we could use IRC, but ended up not using it at 
all.  A webcam or chat might be interesting.  I'll see what is on 
offer.

--dg

At 11:21 AM -0800 11/20/09, Kirk Wallace wrote:
>On Fri, 2009-11-20 at 16:03 -0300, Leonardo Marsaglia wrote:
>>  I wish i could go some day to an EMC meeting, I'm far away from the
>>  US. But i hope everything goes well with that.
>>  Regards.
>>  Leonardo.
>
>I probably won't be able to go either, but I would like to help with any
>effort to create a more interactive remote presence feature (video
>chat?). I suppose any Internet connection at the booth would be
>speculative at this point?
>--
>Kirk Wallace
>http://www.wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/
>http://www.wallacecompany.com/E45/index.html
>California, USA
>
>
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Re: [Emc-users] How Exactly does a Mister Work

[Jack]

A friend does argon for Aluminum, and a argon/co2 mix for most other.  Only
because
argon is a pretty inert gas.  But it is significantly more costly than CO2
or the mix.
><> ... Jack


On Fri, Nov 20, 2009 at 4:06 PM, Andy Pugh wrote:

> 2009/11/20 Mark Cason :
> >
> >   In my experience, the only gas that should be used on aluminum is
> > argon.
>
> Don't misunderstand me, I am not advocating CO2 for mig welding
> aluminium. It worked poorly, but was all I had to hand at the time.
>
> --
> atp
>
>
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Re: [Emc-users] How Exactly does a Mister Work

[Andy Pugh]

2009/11/20 Mark Cason :
>
>   In my experience, the only gas that should be used on aluminum is
> argon.

Don't misunderstand me, I am not advocating CO2 for mig welding
aluminium. It worked poorly, but was all I had to hand at the time.

-- 
atp

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Re: [Emc-users] Introduction

[Gene Heskett]

On Friday 20 November 2009, Chris Knowlton wrote:
>OK, I found the data sheets on the chip and I also found a couple of app
>notes, which helped a bit, now I need some translation of the EMC tags
>please
>
>Step Time: I assume this means the pulse width from rising edge to falling
>edge?

Or better, from falling edge to rising edge, there is more giddy up on a 
logic  zero than in a logic one, so a logic zero is generally considered the 
active state.

>Step Space:  I assume this is the smallest spacing between pulses that
>should be sent?

Something like that, and usually that is a lot faster than emc can send them 
anyway.

>Direction Hold:  I assume that this is the amount of time the direction
>signal has to stay high to make the direction change?

This one isn't clear to me.

>Direction Setup:  I have no idea what this is.

Time a direction signal must be valid before a step should be sent.  Maybe..

There is a possibility that the direction setup signal is latched by the 
direction hold I suppose and that tells it which direction.  But I don't have 
any of this particular beast so I'm not sure.  I'd re-read the docs & maybe 
even setup a test circuit that just drove small bi-colored led's to see how 
it actually works.  There were some state graphs in the pdf that might help 
clarify that, a case of a picture being worth many words. ;)  I'd print it, 
that way you have it exactly as they published it.  I sure find it easier to 
grok anyway.

[huge snip since you are top posting.  Please don't, instead interleave your 
answers so it all reads in natural order as I tried to do above]

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Re: [Emc-users] How Exactly does a Mister Work

[Mark Cason]

On 11/20/2009 02:14 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> On Friday 20 November 2009, Andy Pugh wrote:
>> 2009/11/20 Leslie Newell:
>>> Carbon dioxide is 66% oxygen (CO2). As aluminum is very active it will
>>> strip oxygen out of the CO2.
>>
>> The electronegativity of Al is 1.6, and that of iron is 1.8 (cf 2.5 for
>> Oxygen) CO2 works perfectly well as a shielding gas for MIG welding of
>> steel at molten temperatures, I would not anticipate it reacting strongly
>> with Al at machining temperatures.
>>
>> I have MIG welded aluminium with CO2 shielding gas, and it worked
>> (whilst being demonstrably non-ideal)
>
> My one pass seemed to have left a blackened, (using the 25% co2 supplied
> commonly in the teeny bottles for outrageous prices)&  rather porous looking
> weld that wasn't any stronger than it looked..  But I'm not a mig expert,
> don't even play one on tv. :)  All I have is a 125 amp farmhand with a mig
> kit added.
>

   In my experience, the only gas that should be used on aluminum is 
argon.  I use argon for all of my welding needs,  I have one bottle for 
my TIG/Stick welder, and another for my MIG welder.

   If you are going to go through all of the trouble of using a 
shielding gas, a good non-reactive gas would be better than CO2, and 
depending on where you live, argon should be easier to find than nitrogen.

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Re: [Emc-users] How Exactly does a Mister Work

[Gene Heskett]

On Friday 20 November 2009, Michael Buesch wrote:
>On Friday 20 November 2009 18:10:18 Leslie Newell wrote:
>> Carbon dioxide is 66% oxygen (CO2). As aluminum is very active it will
>> strip oxygen out of the CO2. That is also the reason why you should
>> never use a CO2 fire extinguisher on magnesium fires.
>
>Uhm, at work we machine about 80% magnesium and 20% Aluminum. All
>machines are equipped with CO2 extinguishers. This works very well.

I hope your insurance is paid up, your widow might need it. Those chips can 
be downright explosive.  And whose the insurance company that allows that?

 I have personally seen a 6 cyl mercury outboard block welded up where a con-
rod went through it, with a smith wrench yet.  But since the block was also 
so badly warped from overheating that it couldn't be line bored for a fresh 
crank, he after he had welded it very professionally and serviceable looking, 
proceeded to warm up his weld a little more to show us frogs what happens 
when you get cocky.  Good thing he was working on the sidewalk in front of 
the store for this particular demo, cuz he had to warn off the fire dept when 
they arrived.  So it just burned with lots of smoke and a very bright flame, 
leaving a 6' section of sidewalk that had to be back filled in and a new one 
poured the next day to placate the city, Iowa City IA to be exact.  This guy 
had welding certification cards in his billfold that when unfolded was about 
4 feet long.  Good teacher, and to this day my favorite stick em together 
tool is a smith wrench.  Nothing I've put together with it has ever come 
apart again unless I took it apart, usually with the same wrench but a 
cutting torch screwed in.

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 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
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I can't decide which WRONG TURN to make first!!  I wonder if BOB
GUCCIONE has these problems!

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Re: [Emc-users] Introduction

[Chris Knowlton]

OK, I found the data sheets on the chip and I also found a couple of app
notes, which helped a bit, now I need some translation of the EMC tags
please

Step Time: I assume this means the pulse width from rising edge to falling
edge?
Step Space:  I assume this is the smallest spacing between pulses that
should be sent?
Direction Hold:  I assume that this is the amount of time the direction
signal has to stay high to make the direction change?
Direction Setup:  I have no idea what this is.

On Thu, Nov 19, 2009 at 5:12 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:

> On Thursday 19 November 2009, Chris Knowlton wrote:
> >> selection because I haven't a clue what to set them to.
> >>
> >>
> >> The L297-298 chipset doesn't to my knowledge do any microstepping,
> >> perhaps that is your problem?
> >>
> >> > I am using the default motor timings from the L297 default
> >
> ><--- Comprehension DAWNS!  These settings have to do ONLY with the board!
> >Not the motors!  Now I need some timing data on the board.  The user
> manual
> >was rather interestingly brief. It does tell me though that these are
> >Toshiba TB6560AHQ chips.  Perhaps I should grab the data sheet on them.
> >There are buffers on this board, though I have them set to the fastest
> >setting they have.
>
> The Toshiba document is very complete, although they use some less than
> obvious names for some of the signals, there is enough there to design a
> pretty complete driver.  And with 5 volts more headroom, and an amp more
> ability than the Allegro A-3977, it looks like a slight step up in power,
> plus the 16 step micro stepping will smooth it up a wee bit.  Interesting
> chip, but would prefer the flat pack and a glued on heat sink.  No idea
> which
> is in yours though and you are pretty well fixed by their choice.  In
> either
> event, the more heat sink and fans, the better off you are.
>
> >I kinda need to make this work with this board if I can.  Most of the
> > really nice parts in this build were scrounged.  I don't have $350 for
> > another controller and this one was $90.
> >
> >But that conflicts with the 'aerospace' driver you mentioned above, and
> >which
> >
> >> I am not familiar with.  Does it use this chipset?  I tried to use them
> >> early
> >> on, but found they simply were not fast enough at switching, and the
> >> predictable result was converting a couple of them to slag, at which
> >> point I
> >> threw money at the problem and bought a Xylotex 3 axis kit.  I've since
> >> bought a 4 axis too.  Quite good drivers in this size range, for either
> >> the 262oz motors or the 425's.
> >>
> >> Generally, microstepping improves the torque, but at low speeds its by
> >> percentage points, not magnitudes.  I actually lose torque at 1/4 step
> >> compared to 1/8 step.  At midrange speeds, where the motors are still
> >> 'stepping' a step, then stopping till the next step, they will vibrate
> >> about
> >> the current step position, and at some speeds, this can actually cause
> >> the motor to forget which way its turning, or simply get confused and
> >> stall. An
> >> additional weight in the form of a flywheel with loose parts on the
> other
> >> end
> >> of the motor to absorb this vibration can easily extend the speed range
> >> to 2
> >> or 3 times the original, un-damped stall speed.  This is very important
> >> for full and half step lashups, somewhat less so at 1/4 step, and better
> >> yet at 1/8th.  And I presume even better at 1/16th steps but mine quits
> >> at 8 microsteps.
> >>
> >> Ack!  Learning curve wipeout.  What is a lashup?  I know about dampeners
> >
> >and I can probably get ahold of some brass and latex ones for  the X and Y
> >axis because I only have two motors that have through shafts I think.
> >
> >>Leadscrews are 2 start 16tpi (so effective 8tpi?) for the two axes that I
> >>
> >> >have working now.
> >> >
> >> >Thanks for your attention!
> >> >
> >> >ChrisK
> >>
> >> --
> >> Cheers, Gene
> >> "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
> >>  soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
> >> -Ed Howdershelt (Author)
> >> The NRA is offering FREE Associate memberships to anyone who wants them.
> >> 
> >>
> >> "Well, it don't make the sun shine, but at least it don't deepen the
> >> shit." -- Straiter Empy, in _Riddley_Walker_ by Russell Hoban
> >>
> >>
> >>
> -
> >>- Let Crystal Reports handle the reporting - Free Crystal Reports
> 2008
> >> 30-Day trial. Simplify your report design, integration and deployment -
> >> and focus on
> >> what you do best, core application coding. Discover what's new with
> >> Crystal Reports now.  http://p.sf.net/sfu/bobj-july
> >> ___
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> >> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
> >
>
> >---

Re: [Emc-users] How Exactly does a Mister Work

[Gene Heskett]

On Friday 20 November 2009, Andy Pugh wrote:
>2009/11/20 Leslie Newell :
>> Carbon dioxide is 66% oxygen (CO2). As aluminum is very active it will
>> strip oxygen out of the CO2.
>
>The electronegativity of Al is 1.6, and that of iron is 1.8 (cf 2.5 for
> Oxygen) CO2 works perfectly well as a shielding gas for MIG welding of
> steel at molten temperatures, I would not anticipate it reacting strongly
> with Al at machining temperatures.
>
>I have MIG welded aluminium with CO2 shielding gas, and it worked
>(whilst being demonstrably non-ideal)

My one pass seemed to have left a blackened, (using the 25% co2 supplied 
commonly in the teeny bottles for outrageous prices) & rather porous looking 
weld that wasn't any stronger than it looked..  But I'm not a mig expert, 
don't even play one on tv. :)  All I have is a 125 amp farmhand with a mig 
kit added.

-- 
Cheers, Gene
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
The NRA is offering FREE Associate memberships to anyone who wants them.


Why don't you ever enter any CONTESTS, Marvin??  Don't you know your
own ZIPCODE?

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[Stuart Stevenson]

Gentlemen,
  Touchy (the touch screen interface) is now moving the G&L.
  Thanks cradek!!!
Stuart

-- 
Few will listen,
Of the few who listen, fewer still will understand,
Understanding does not mean believe,
Of the handful who believe, most may not know what to do,
Those who even know, how many will actually do ?
And the rare ones who have done it...
Need not listen anymore.

you can lead a person to knowledge
but you cannot make him think
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Re: [Emc-users] EMC at NAMES 2010 update

[Kirk Wallace]

On Fri, 2009-11-20 at 16:03 -0300, Leonardo Marsaglia wrote:
> I wish i could go some day to an EMC meeting, I'm far away from the
> US. But i hope everything goes well with that.
> Regards.
> Leonardo.

I probably won't be able to go either, but I would like to help with any
effort to create a more interactive remote presence feature (video
chat?). I suppose any Internet connection at the booth would be
speculative at this point?
-- 
Kirk Wallace
http://www.wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/
http://www.wallacecompany.com/E45/index.html
California, USA


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Re: [Emc-users] How Exactly does a Mister Work

[Andy Pugh]

2009/11/20 Michael Buesch :
>
> Uhm, at work we machine about 80% magnesium and 20% Aluminum. All
> machines are equipped with CO2 extinguishers. This works very well.

Interesting demo here:
http://www.ilpi.com/genchem/demo/co2mg/index.html

However, there is a requirement to have the Mg actually burning before
there is any reaction, which is why I think that CO2 probably doesn't
react with aluminium at room temperature.

-- 
atp

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Re: [Emc-users] Mister for small mill

[Kirk Wallace]

One idea I have been meaning to try on my mister is to use a peristaltic
pump, maybe powered by a stepper and EMC2 stepgen, to meter the fluid
into the air stream. This way, I can better control the fluid quantity
rate and I won't get fluid drain-back, so the fluid will come on
instantly. Inkjet printers often have a small pump for cleaning the
head.

Another thing that comes to mind, on my Hardinge lathe and Shizuoka
mill, any hint of water seems to cause rust, so I won't be using any
water based anything around my machines.
-- 
Kirk Wallace
http://www.wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/
http://www.wallacecompany.com/E45/index.html
California, USA


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Re: [Emc-users] EMC at NAMES 2010 update

[Leonardo Marsaglia]

I wish i could go some day to an EMC meeting, I'm far away from the US.

But i hope everything goes well with that.

Regards.

Leonardo.

2009/11/20 Dale Grover 

> Just got an email from Karl Gross of NAMES (the North American Model
> Engineering Society), which runs the NAMES Expo.  In 2010 it will be
> return to Detroit after several years in Toledo.  We EMC users can
> have a free exhibitor booth there (maybe pay for electrical), and
> they'd like us to do a seminar on one or both days.  I think that's
> great news.
>
> Here's what I proposed for the seminar (which I think are about 50
> minutes long):
>
> Getting Started with EMC:  free and open source CNC control software.
> Beginning with a brief overview of the components of a typical
> hobbyist/small business CNC machine, the seminar will focus on using
> the free and open source EMC software for CNC control.  Topics will
> include where to get EMC, computer requirements, EMC capabilities,
> using EMC standalone for learning G-code, configuration, and
> operation.
>
>
> As for the booth, are there things we should do differently this
> year?  Ideas are welcome.  In 2009 we had photos of various EMC
> systems from around the world, a video running of 5 axis machining, a
> very nice EMC banner, a desktop CNC mill cutting air and wax, and
> another standalone EMC system.  Plus CDs of the then-current EMC
> Live-CD to hand out, and one-page EMC handouts to give out.
>
> (I need to check in with Karl on the size of the exhibitor booth
> we'll have.  Not sure at the moment.)
>
> Thanks.
>
> --Dale
>
>
> --
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Re: [Emc-users] How Exactly does a Mister Work

[Michael Buesch]

On Friday 20 November 2009 18:10:18 Leslie Newell wrote:
> Carbon dioxide is 66% oxygen (CO2). As aluminum is very active it will 
> strip oxygen out of the CO2. That is also the reason why you should 
> never use a CO2 fire extinguisher on magnesium fires.

Uhm, at work we machine about 80% magnesium and 20% Aluminum. All
machines are equipped with CO2 extinguishers. This works very well.

-- 
Greetings, Michael.

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Re: [Emc-users] How Exactly does a Mister Work

[Andy Pugh]

2009/11/20 Leslie Newell :

> Carbon dioxide is 66% oxygen (CO2). As aluminum is very active it will
> strip oxygen out of the CO2.

The electronegativity of Al is 1.6, and that of iron is 1.8 (cf 2.5 for Oxygen)
CO2 works perfectly well as a shielding gas for MIG welding of steel
at molten temperatures, I would not anticipate it reacting strongly
with Al at machining temperatures.

I have MIG welded aluminium with CO2 shielding gas, and it worked
(whilst being demonstrably non-ideal)

-- 
atp

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Re: [Emc-users] How Exactly does a Mister Work

[Gene Heskett]

On Friday 20 November 2009, John Harris wrote:
>Hm. I don't think carbide bits were around in 58, so it looks like the
>foreman was not too far off.
>
>The fast oxidization of aluminum during cutting is an interesting effect.
>
>In the early 60s, we were making small electronic modules by soldering tiny
>Fairchild ICs to printed circuit cards, using locally made hot nitrogen
>soldering. There was a wall powered gadget that extracted nitrogen from the
>air, and a bell jar that held the nitrogen at 1/2 PSI. A plastic tube fed
>the nitrogen to something that looked like a normal soldering iron, except
>that the tip was a hypodermic needle with a blunt tip. The nitrogen came
> out of the needle tip hot enough to melt (reflow) the solder at the joint,
> but while doing so flooded the area around the joint with nitrogen to
> prevent oxidation.
>
>You do not need the heat but maybe a low flow of nitrogen to the cutting
>point may stop the oxidation long enough for the next cutting edge to get
>there. Anyone have any ideas on how the gadget running from wall power that
>made the nitrogen worked?
>
>John
>
No more chemistry than I've learned would tend to make me think there was a 
chemical in there that absorbed the oxygen as the air passed by, probably was 
either replenished by the night crew, or heated to reverse the process at 
some point in the unmanned day.  Something along the lines of the dehydrators 
we use for pressurizing transmission lines at broadcast facilities.  They run 
the air thru silica gel to dry it, then reverse the valves & dump the air 
being pulled in back to atmosphere and heat the tank of gel to drive the 
water back out of it about once a day, or in the better ones, every x hours 
of accumulated running time.  As for the chemical used to pull oxygen, I 
wouldn't have a clue, but common sense says that is going to generate heat 
just as a fire would.  All I know is that one isn't going to have an air 
reduction (compress to liquid and controlled evaporization of the liquid 
compressed air) system in a wall wart supply.  Possibly in a refrigerator 
sized compressor I suppose as we presently have a portable oxygen generator 
on site for the wife's use as she has COPD.  Given the pressures involved, I 
wouldn't expect to ever see that reduced to a wall wart sized device so it 
almost has to be chemical based.

>- Original Message -
>From: "Leslie Newell" 
>To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)" 
>Sent: Friday, November 20, 2009 8:43 AM
>Subject: Re: [Emc-users] How Exactly does a Mister Work
>
>> In general flood with a water based coolant will shift more heat than a
>> mist system. Flood also usually shifts the chips better. On the down
>> side it is very messy and can actually reduce the life of carbide
>> tooling.
>>
>> Carbide tooling can take a lot of heat but it hates thermal shock. The
>> cutting edges of a milling cutter operating in flood coolant will get
>> heated rapidly while they are actually cutting then suddenly cooled as
>> they hit the coolant. This can cause cracking and chipping. Oil has a
>> much lower thermal capacity and conductivity than water so it doesn't
>> cause as much thermal shock. To a large extent you can get around the
>> problem by using high pressure flood coolant to make sure the cutter
>> does not get a chance to heat up.
>>
>> So why are mist systems still fairly rare in industry? Two main reasons
>> spring to mind. 1) flood keeps the work and machine at an even
>> temperature so you don't need to allow for thermal expansion. 2) Flood
>> has always been used. If it works, why change it?
>>
>> In my experience carbide works well with oil misters, HSS needs flood or
>> a heavy mist of water based coolant.
>>
>> Les
>>
>> John Harris wrote:
>>> Hi All,
>>> Back in the late 50s when, as a young apprentice, I was
>>> turning knobs on a milling machine as part of my education, the shop
>>> foreman replaced the flood system on the mill with a new-fangled mister.
>>> The mister feed tank was filled with the same stuff that was used for
>>> the flood system. That is water with 15(?) percent soluble oil.
>>>
>>> The foreman told me that the mist cooled the part and the tool by
>>> evaporating the water, and the oil gave some lubrication to the cutting
>>> action. Also misting greatly aided the water evaporation compared to the
>>> flood system.
>>>
>>> As the foreman is by now no longer with us, I feel safe in raising the
>>> question, was what he told me true? If it was, why are you now using
>>> only oil that is much less efficient in absorbing heat by evaporation
>>> than water?
>>>
>>> Regards all. I love reading the chat.
>>
>> -
>>- Let Crystal Reports handle the reporting - Free Crystal Reports 2008
>> 30-Day
>> trial. Simplify your report design, integration and deployment - and
>> focus on
>> what you do best, core application coding. Discover what's new with

Re: [Emc-users] How Exactly does a Mister Work

[John Harris]

Hm. I don't think carbide bits were around in 58, so it looks like the 
foreman was not too far off.

The fast oxidization of aluminum during cutting is an interesting effect.

In the early 60s, we were making small electronic modules by soldering tiny 
Fairchild ICs to printed circuit cards, using locally made hot nitrogen 
soldering. There was a wall powered gadget that extracted nitrogen from the 
air, and a bell jar that held the nitrogen at 1/2 PSI. A plastic tube fed 
the nitrogen to something that looked like a normal soldering iron, except 
that the tip was a hypodermic needle with a blunt tip. The nitrogen came out 
of the needle tip hot enough to melt (reflow) the solder at the joint, but 
while doing so flooded the area around the joint with nitrogen to prevent 
oxidation.

You do not need the heat but maybe a low flow of nitrogen to the cutting 
point may stop the oxidation long enough for the next cutting edge to get 
there. Anyone have any ideas on how the gadget running from wall power that 
made the nitrogen worked?

John

- Original Message - 
From: "Leslie Newell" 
To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)" 
Sent: Friday, November 20, 2009 8:43 AM
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] How Exactly does a Mister Work


> In general flood with a water based coolant will shift more heat than a
> mist system. Flood also usually shifts the chips better. On the down
> side it is very messy and can actually reduce the life of carbide tooling.
>
> Carbide tooling can take a lot of heat but it hates thermal shock. The
> cutting edges of a milling cutter operating in flood coolant will get
> heated rapidly while they are actually cutting then suddenly cooled as
> they hit the coolant. This can cause cracking and chipping. Oil has a
> much lower thermal capacity and conductivity than water so it doesn't
> cause as much thermal shock. To a large extent you can get around the
> problem by using high pressure flood coolant to make sure the cutter
> does not get a chance to heat up.
>
> So why are mist systems still fairly rare in industry? Two main reasons
> spring to mind. 1) flood keeps the work and machine at an even
> temperature so you don't need to allow for thermal expansion. 2) Flood
> has always been used. If it works, why change it?
>
> In my experience carbide works well with oil misters, HSS needs flood or
> a heavy mist of water based coolant.
>
> Les
>
>
> John Harris wrote:
>> Hi All,
>> Back in the late 50s when, as a young apprentice, I was 
>> turning knobs on a milling machine as part of my education, the shop 
>> foreman replaced the flood system on the mill with a new-fangled mister. 
>> The mister feed tank was filled with the same stuff that was used for the 
>> flood system. That is water with 15(?) percent soluble oil.
>>
>> The foreman told me that the mist cooled the part and the tool by 
>> evaporating the water, and the oil gave some lubrication to the cutting 
>> action. Also misting greatly aided the water evaporation compared to the 
>> flood system.
>>
>> As the foreman is by now no longer with us, I feel safe in raising the 
>> question, was what he told me true? If it was, why are you now using only 
>> oil that is much less efficient in absorbing heat by evaporation than 
>> water?
>>
>> Regards all. I love reading the chat.
>>
>
>
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Re: [Emc-users] How Exactly does a Mister Work

[Gene Heskett]

On Friday 20 November 2009, dave wrote:
>On Fri, 2009-11-20 at 16:39 +, Andy Pugh wrote:
>> 2009/11/20 Gene Heskett :
>> > A cube of dry ice sitting on
>> > it would help, but would raise the available oxygen too.
>>
>> I am fairly sure it would displace the oxygen (being heavier) and so
>> would both cool and reduce oxide formation.
>>
>> You might have hit on a cunning plan, and it would look cool too.
>
>Carbon Dioxide doesn't disassociate easily but will if pushed hard.
>It cannot be used in heat-treating furnaces for that reason but for
>cooling/shielding Al machined parts I think it will work just fine.
>
>I'm not sure the kinetics of Al oxidation are as aggressive as Gene
>states but cannot find any evidence to support or disallow such a claim.
>The oxidation curve, at least at high temps (600 F), is parabolic so it
>limits fairly quickly.
>
>A couple of alternatives for small orifices come to mind. Diesel rebuild
>shops should always have a supply of used injector nozzles. I understand
>the newer ones are carbide.
>
>IIRC Gene had a tap remover (crude edm) running at one time. That should
>fab almost any small hole he wants. :-)

But what to use for the electrode? That is the 64k$ question.  Even tag wire 
is too big for this.

I have since built a better power supply, but using the same idea. I needed 
to bore some holes in some 10" table saw blades so I could turn them on the 
table and sharpen them a wee bit.  With the new supply, 400 watts worth of 25 
ohm resistor, and about 80 volts charging a 10 uf oiled paper capacitor 
across the gap, I can set a tape spool ring into modeling clay for a dam, put 
1/2" of k1 in the ring and blow a nice clean hole through a saw blades .090" 
thick web in about 10 minutes.  But not without fishing a set of 32 db rated 
shooting muffs out of the range box in the pickup, it is that noisy.  It 
would obviously have to be scaled back considerably to do real teeny hole 
drilling.  And as I found out while tap removal was in progress, the 
inability to keep the gap flushed was a major problem, I had to back out of 
the hole, blow it as clean as my air compressor could, and put fresh k1 in 
the hole at about 1 minute intervals as it got so sludgy it shorted.

>Small volumes of oil/mist might be available by using model airplane
>engines as pumps.
>
>Just thinking out loud. Usually dangerous.

Chuckle, same here Dave, but so far I've managed to live through some pretty 
interesting times in my 75 years.

>Dave
>
>
>
>
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Re: [Emc-users] How Exactly does a Mister Work

[Gene Heskett]

On Friday 20 November 2009, Leslie Newell wrote:
>Carbon dioxide is 66% oxygen (CO2). As aluminum is very active it will
>strip oxygen out of the CO2. That is also the reason why you should
>never use a CO2 fire extinguisher on magnesium fires.
>
>Les
>
Thanks for confirming my suspicions, Les.  That reaction will no doubt also 
leave some co behind, a much more dangerous gas.

>Andy Pugh wrote:
>> I am fairly sure it would displace the oxygen (being heavier) and so
>> would both cool and reduce oxide formation.
>>
>> You might have hit on a cunning plan, and it would look cool too.
>
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Re: [Emc-users] How Exactly does a Mister Work

[Gene Heskett]

On Friday 20 November 2009, Andy Pugh wrote:
>2009/11/20 Gene Heskett :
>> A cube of dry ice sitting on
>> it would help, but would raise the available oxygen too.
>
>I am fairly sure it would displace the oxygen (being heavier) and so
>would both cool and reduce oxide formation.

That would depend on how easy it would be to obtain some oxygen from the co2 
vapors.  How active is carbon dioxide compared to say sulfur dioxide?  Sulfur 
dioxide is a very unstable gas, but its chemical reaction is the opposite as 
it will grab, by force, an oxygen molecule from any available src in its 
quest to convert itself to sulfur tri-oxide, which as some of us know it just 
another name for sulfuric acid.  This is why a leaking so2 refrigerant system 
(commonly used in household refrigerators back in the late 30 and mid-40's) 
is so deadly, the gas will steal the oxygen from the moisture in your lungs 
to make sulfuric acid and _that_ burns your lungs out.

 In the gas fired camper fridges, that is also the destruction mechanism for 
those as even one molecule of water sealed into that system will, over time, 
generate enough sulfuric acid to eat a hole in a thin spot someplace.  I 
don't believe you will ever see a 'Dometic" made unit that will ever have 
more than a 5 year warranty on its no moving parts refrigeration system for 
exactly that reason.  And if its gas fired, it IS a Dometic inside the brand 
name labels & has been so since the 1950's after Servel disappeared.  Today I 
think 12 volt versions of the little bitty fridges like wally sells for a bit 
over a hundred dollar bill have replaced those gas fired ones in 100% of the 
new weekend campers.  I have one in the basement that I carry with me when 
I'm going to be on the job someplace for more than 3 or 4 days. But it runs 
on wall power.

As for how active the carbon dioxide from the dry ice is, can it be broken 
down to supply the o in its o2?  I am not _that_ much of a chemist, hence the 
question. :(

 >You might have hit on a cunning plan, and it would look cool too.

I agree, but the expense of keeping one supplied with dry ice would also have 
to be a factor.  Locally, I believe its special order and several dollars a 
pound, weight measured at their end of the shipping of course. ;)

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Re: [Emc-users] How Exactly does a Mister Work

[dave]

On Fri, 2009-11-20 at 16:39 +, Andy Pugh wrote:
> 2009/11/20 Gene Heskett :
> 
> > A cube of dry ice sitting on
> > it would help, but would raise the available oxygen too.
> 
> I am fairly sure it would displace the oxygen (being heavier) and so
> would both cool and reduce oxide formation.
> 
> You might have hit on a cunning plan, and it would look cool too.
> 

Carbon Dioxide doesn't disassociate easily but will if pushed hard. 
It cannot be used in heat-treating furnaces for that reason but for
cooling/shielding Al machined parts I think it will work just fine.

I'm not sure the kinetics of Al oxidation are as aggressive as Gene
states but cannot find any evidence to support or disallow such a claim.
The oxidation curve, at least at high temps (600 F), is parabolic so it
limits fairly quickly. 

A couple of alternatives for small orifices come to mind. Diesel rebuild
shops should always have a supply of used injector nozzles. I understand
the newer ones are carbide. 

IIRC Gene had a tap remover (crude edm) running at one time. That should
fab almost any small hole he wants. :-)

Small volumes of oil/mist might be available by using model airplane
engines as pumps. 

Just thinking out loud. Usually dangerous. 

Dave




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Re: [Emc-users] How Exactly does a Mister Work

[Leslie Newell]

Carbon dioxide is 66% oxygen (CO2). As aluminum is very active it will 
strip oxygen out of the CO2. That is also the reason why you should 
never use a CO2 fire extinguisher on magnesium fires.

Les

Andy Pugh wrote:
> I am fairly sure it would displace the oxygen (being heavier) and so
> would both cool and reduce oxide formation.
>
> You might have hit on a cunning plan, and it would look cool too.
>
>   


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Re: [Emc-users] How Exactly does a Mister Work

[Andy Pugh]

2009/11/20 Gene Heskett :

> A cube of dry ice sitting on
> it would help, but would raise the available oxygen too.

I am fairly sure it would displace the oxygen (being heavier) and so
would both cool and reduce oxide formation.

You might have hit on a cunning plan, and it would look cool too.

-- 
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Re: [Emc-users] How Exactly does a Mister Work

[Gene Heskett]

On Friday 20 November 2009, John Harris wrote:
>Hi All,
>Back in the late 50s when, as a young apprentice, I was turning
> knobs on a milling machine as part of my education, the shop foreman
> replaced the flood system on the mill with a new-fangled mister. The
> mister feed tank was filled with the same stuff that was used for the
> flood system. That is water with 15(?) percent soluble oil.
>
>The foreman told me that the mist cooled the part and the tool by
> evaporating the water, and the oil gave some lubrication to the cutting
> action. Also misting greatly aided the water evaporation compared to the
> flood system.
>
>As the foreman is by now no longer with us, I feel safe in raising the
> question, was what he told me true? If it was, why are you now using only
> oil that is much less efficient in absorbing heat by evaporation than
> water?
>
>Regards all. I love reading the chat.

Warning:  This is personal opinion, subject to revision.

1. in this instance, I'm cutting alu.  This makes a huge diff in the 
chemistry involved.  If in the target operation I was cutting steel or cast, 
I would have a different idea, although the last cast iron I cut, cut very 
well with a squirt of ace cutting oil on the side of the mill while I was 
cutting 1.4" deep with a 1/4" 4 flute TiN mill whose flutes were only an inch 
long.  3 passes to get to full depth while widening the center clearance in a 
starter nose housing for an old Olds diesel, and whose starters are by now 
made out of pretty much pure unobtainium.

2. Alu is a VERY actively oxidizing metal when the bare metal is exposed to 
oxygen from any source, including both air and water.  The oxide film so 
formed then protects it from further "rusting" at that high (about .001 
seconds) rate, but does continue forever at ever slower rates.

3. This rapid oxidation can raise the temp of the part being machined if its 
a small part vs the area being machined.  In this case a 2" square of 1/8" 
thick alu is sitting on top of a block of sweet gum machined flat for a 
sacrificial substrate so I can cut a few thou below the bottom edge, so there 
is not the close contact with another block of metal to act as a heat sink.

4. Any rise in the temp of alu rather adversely effects machining as softer 
alu will tend to push out of the way of the mill as it moved, and it sticks 
in the flutes of the mill like it was welded.  A cube of dry ice sitting on 
it would help, but would raise the available oxygen too.  However the lower 
temps would slow the oxide formation so that particular item could possibly 
be a plus factor.  That of course isn't going to be compatible with the chip 
flushing air blast.  If one could afford it, dry nitrogen would work even 
better but a T2 bottle refill was about $100 the last time I filled ours at 
the tv station.  Not everyone has a Cardox in their back yard. :)

5. Oil contains much less free oxygen and very little in compound so it 
protects the cut surface from this oxidization IF the oil film can be made to 
cover the cut surface in a thousandth of a second or less.  This latter I'm 
not convinced can be done really effectively without an enclosure and 500+ 
psi pressures feeding the coolant. 

So for little machines like mine, it seems the idea to keep the cut surface 
wet, along with the mill so it tends to leave an oil film on the cut with the 
back side of the cutting edge, or as wet as I can get it, and not using a 
fluid with any free oxygen, can only be a plus.

Alu oxide is the 2nd hardest substance we have readily available, and is 
quite capable of eroding the edge off a carbide tool considerably faster then 
the average ferrous material can.

For this same reason, one uses all the rpm the spindle has in order to bring 
the next cutting edge to the work face before the oxide can form.  But my 
little toy mill can only do 2500 revs, so I have 2500/60 to get rps,then  *2 
for the number of flutes & take the reciprocal to get the time=0.012 seconds 
between flutes, many times longer than optimum so there is plenty of time for 
the oxide to form if left uncovered.

So that is the reason I use straight oil.  Vactra #2 since I have it, 
safflower when I get to the store.

-- 
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Re: [Emc-users] How Exactly does a Mister Work

[Leslie Newell]

In general flood with a water based coolant will shift more heat than a 
mist system. Flood also usually shifts the chips better. On the down 
side it is very messy and can actually reduce the life of carbide tooling.

Carbide tooling can take a lot of heat but it hates thermal shock. The 
cutting edges of a milling cutter operating in flood coolant will get 
heated rapidly while they are actually cutting then suddenly cooled as 
they hit the coolant. This can cause cracking and chipping. Oil has a 
much lower thermal capacity and conductivity than water so it doesn't 
cause as much thermal shock. To a large extent you can get around the 
problem by using high pressure flood coolant to make sure the cutter 
does not get a chance to heat up.

So why are mist systems still fairly rare in industry? Two main reasons 
spring to mind. 1) flood keeps the work and machine at an even 
temperature so you don't need to allow for thermal expansion. 2) Flood 
has always been used. If it works, why change it?

In my experience carbide works well with oil misters, HSS needs flood or 
a heavy mist of water based coolant.

Les


John Harris wrote:
> Hi All,
> Back in the late 50s when, as a young apprentice, I was turning 
> knobs on a milling machine as part of my education, the shop foreman replaced 
> the flood system on the mill with a new-fangled mister. The mister feed tank 
> was filled with the same stuff that was used for the flood system. That is 
> water with 15(?) percent soluble oil.
>
> The foreman told me that the mist cooled the part and the tool by evaporating 
> the water, and the oil gave some lubrication to the cutting action. Also 
> misting greatly aided the water evaporation compared to the flood system.
>
> As the foreman is by now no longer with us, I feel safe in raising the 
> question, was what he told me true? If it was, why are you now using only oil 
> that is much less efficient in absorbing heat by evaporation than water?
>
> Regards all. I love reading the chat.
>   


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[Emc-users] How Exactly does a Mister Work

[John Harris]

Hi All,
Back in the late 50s when, as a young apprentice, I was turning 
knobs on a milling machine as part of my education, the shop foreman replaced 
the flood system on the mill with a new-fangled mister. The mister feed tank 
was filled with the same stuff that was used for the flood system. That is 
water with 15(?) percent soluble oil.

The foreman told me that the mist cooled the part and the tool by evaporating 
the water, and the oil gave some lubrication to the cutting action. Also 
misting greatly aided the water evaporation compared to the flood system.

As the foreman is by now no longer with us, I feel safe in raising the 
question, was what he told me true? If it was, why are you now using only oil 
that is much less efficient in absorbing heat by evaporation than water?

Regards all. I love reading the chat.
__
John Harris
E-mail: jdhhar...@customstage.net
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Re: [Emc-users] Mister for small mill

[Gene Heskett]

On Friday 20 November 2009, Ian W. Wright wrote:
>Gene,
>
>Can't imagine why you'd want to stand in an inch of water to
>soften brass ;-}

The cartridge case, not me obviously. ;)

>You answered your own question really - just get it hot and
>leave it - it will be soft. Better still, use copper.

No copper available at that gittin place.  But, next time I go to the old 
transmitter, I recall there are some failed thermometers as it monitored the 
water temps with dial thermometers with remote bulbs, that capillary tube 
would make a decent piece of raw material.  And it is copper.

>Now, needle valves - think laterally - where are they used -
>carburettors 

True, but in small engines you have to find one 20-40 years old now since the 
EPA got into the regulating business, they are all fixed jets now, and 
usually too damned lean, and plugged up tight by corrosion after sitting dry 
for the winter so they get to sell you a new $50 one come spring.  But its a 
thought I'll keep in mind.

>do you have an old carburettor hanging
>about or, better still, an old model aero engine which will
>have a needle valve in a bit of brass tube for a carburettor
>- strip it out and mount it crosswise in your bigger brass
>tube and you have a ready made atomiser..

I don't believe we need that fine an atomizer, that is how we would load the 
breathing air up.  I think the idea here seems to be the injection directly 
into the center of the air stream, of a small amount that eventually becomes 
a big enough droplet hanging off the end of the tube so that it gets carried 
away in larger droplets that are ballisticly delivered to the work/mill 
interface, about a 1.25" distance with the way I have it mounted..  So the 
work stays wet, without a lot of it hanging in the air.  Air pressures are in 
the 15-50 psi range, just enough to blow most of the chips away when they are 
sticky with the oil.  The air jet is formed by the clearance between the OD 
of the 1/16" tube, and a 5/64" hole the tube is projecting through, by about 
1/16".  The small tubes end then is in the center of this air stream and is 
apparently subjected to a slight siphoning vacuum although I haven't tried to 
measure it.  In any event, the oil reservoir has the same pressure in it as 
the air flows through it, functioning as a filter of sorts, and the oil exits 
its screw-on bowl via the drain fitting on the bottom.  Heavy duty flow 
restriction required else it will dump the bowls contents onto the mill and 
workpiece in a second or so after air pressure is applied.  Un-screw the bowl 
to add oil.  So far the hose barb has slipped in the hose as the bowl is 
rotated, but I suspect I'll have to find some mini-clamps to keep it from 
blowing off under pressure eventually.

Thanks Ian.

-- 
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Things you believe.

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[Emc-users] EMC at NAMES 2010 update

[Dale Grover]

Just got an email from Karl Gross of NAMES (the North American Model 
Engineering Society), which runs the NAMES Expo.  In 2010 it will be 
return to Detroit after several years in Toledo.  We EMC users can 
have a free exhibitor booth there (maybe pay for electrical), and 
they'd like us to do a seminar on one or both days.  I think that's 
great news.

Here's what I proposed for the seminar (which I think are about 50 
minutes long):

Getting Started with EMC:  free and open source CNC control software.
Beginning with a brief overview of the components of a typical 
hobbyist/small business CNC machine, the seminar will focus on using 
the free and open source EMC software for CNC control.  Topics will 
include where to get EMC, computer requirements, EMC capabilities, 
using EMC standalone for learning G-code, configuration, and 
operation.


As for the booth, are there things we should do differently this 
year?  Ideas are welcome.  In 2009 we had photos of various EMC 
systems from around the world, a video running of 5 axis machining, a 
very nice EMC banner, a desktop CNC mill cutting air and wax, and 
another standalone EMC system.  Plus CDs of the then-current EMC 
Live-CD to hand out, and one-page EMC handouts to give out.

(I need to check in with Karl on the size of the exhibitor booth 
we'll have.  Not sure at the moment.)

Thanks.

--Dale

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Re: [Emc-users] Mister for small mill

[Leslie Newell]

Glow engines are dying out for the smaller stuff. Electric power has 
come on so much in the last few years. Electric power is now pretty 
close as far as power/weight is concerned and it is so much more convenient.

Les

Gene Heskett wrote
> I'll do that the next time I get to Bridgeport. although I believe his model 
> business has largely transitioned to the battery pack powered stuff, racing 4 
> wheelers etc + electric trains in smaller gauges.  He has never had much of a 
> selection of the glow plug engines visible.
>
> Thanks Les.
>   


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Re: [Emc-users] Mister for small mill

[Gene Heskett]

On Friday 20 November 2009, Leslie Newell wrote:
>Sounds like you have an aquarium air valve.
>
Or an ice-maker shutoff. :)

>Find a hobby shop that sells models that use engines. Ask for a mixture
>needle assembly. Most shops have a stack of broken models out the back
>that they raid for parts. Generally the needle valves have a 1/8" hose
>barb on one end and a thread on the other that screws into the carb.
>They give very fine control over the flow. If you find a good shop they
>may well have remote needle valves for aircraft. These have two hose barbs.

I'll do that the next time I get to Bridgeport. although I believe his model 
business has largely transitioned to the battery pack powered stuff, racing 4 
wheelers etc + electric trains in smaller gauges.  He has never had much of a 
selection of the glow plug engines visible.

Thanks Les.

-- 
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-- Chuang-tzu

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Re: [Emc-users] Mister for small mill

[Ian W. Wright]

Gene,

Can't imagine why you'd want to stand in an inch of water to 
soften brass ;-}

You answered your own question really - just get it hot and 
leave it - it will be soft. Better still, use copper.
Now, needle valves - think laterally - where are they used - 
carburettors do you have an old carburettor hanging 
about or, better still, an old model aero engine which will 
have a needle valve in a bit of brass tube for a carburettor 
- strip it out and mount it crosswise in your bigger brass 
tube and you have a ready made atomiser..

Ian

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Re: [Emc-users] Mister for small mill

[Leslie Newell]

Sounds like you have an aquarium air valve.

Find a hobby shop that sells models that use engines. Ask for a mixture 
needle assembly. Most shops have a stack of broken models out the back 
that they raid for parts. Generally the needle valves have a 1/8" hose 
barb on one end and a thread on the other that screws into the carb. 
They give very fine control over the flow. If you find a good shop they 
may well have remote needle valves for aircraft. These have two hose barbs.

Les


> Without a doubt.  The so-called needle valve I got from Lowes didn't want to 
> shut off, so I took it apart to discover there was nothing needle about it.  
> The reason it wouldn't turn off is that the threads in the body weren't 
> tapped deep enough, and I had to force it the last half turn to actually get 
> to a seated condition.  ATM it is open maybe 2 degrees from screwed down 
> tight, so the oil is just sort of seeping through it and that seems to be 
> more than enough to keep the mill and work wet.


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[Emc-users] Halscope colour

[Richard Arthur]

How can I change the Halscope background from black to white (useful 
when printing hard copy).

Thanks,

Richard

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Re: [Emc-users] Custom kernel

[Frank Tkalcevic]

> > I want to buld my own kernel.  I've read the instructions 
> on the wiki, 
> > but I'm struggling to find the right versions of the kernel 
> and RTAI.  
> > Can someone tell me the versions of the kernel and RTAI 
> used to build 
> > the Ubuntu
> > 8.04 live cd version?
> 
> Hello Frank,
> 
> I build EMC2 with Puppy Linux.
> I tried to use RTAI 3.7.1 with kernel 2.6.29.7 but this 
> combination was ubstable. I was able to handle the system if 
> I use autocompete in command line in bash (by TAB 
> button)(Maybe it is only puppy problem).
> So I used RTAI 3.6.2 with kernel 2.6.24.7. System is stable and fast. 
> Version of EMC is 2.3.3


In the end I didn't need to rebuild.  I was playing with rtnet and it
wouldn't compile with what was present in a standard emc live cd build.
Recompiling and installing rtai 3.6.1 seemed to fix it.

Frank


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