Re: [Emc-users] Brushless Servo Selection?

[Peter Blodow]

Andy,
way back in my school time, curriculum makers detected that mass and 
force are different things. Before, forces were expressed in mass units, 
i.e., kilogramms (greek: chilioi = thousand, gramma = weight), and 
sometimes called kilogrammforce, which gives roughly identical figures 
for computations as long as we are on earth. To signify the difference, 
though, these force units were then called kiloponds (abbreviated kp, 
latin: pondus = weight).

To comply with international SI units, they abandoned this unit soon 
(right after I had to learn it in school) and introduced the Newton as 
the official unit of force. Using Newton's law, it is defined by the 
force that is needed to accelerate one kilogram of mass from zero to the 
speed of one meter per second during one second (1 m / s / s) and as 
such independent of local gravity. Using the average gravity constant of 
our planet, it turns out that one Newton is approx. 1/10 of a kilopond 
or kilogrammforce (exactly 1 N = 1 / 9.81 kp = 0.102 kp). Newton himself 
never explained the difference between heavy mass and inertia of mass.

For engineering purposes, and to maintain the same figures and values 
they were used to, the old mechanical engineers used metric prefixes and 
made up the DekaNewton = ten Newtons, abreviated DN (greek: deka = ten, 
abbrev. D ). One DekaNewton = 1.02 kp, so, for the time being, they 
could keep using those old handbooks and their figures of material 
properties. It was, though, easy to confuse with the abbreviation for 
"nominal diameter", DN, so this was not successful on the long run.

To express angular momentum, we have to multiply force by the length of 
the lever, i.e. one meter. So we arrive at the unit DNm = 10 Nm ^= 1 
kpm, and the world is in almost perfect order again.

So far, this was all based on the kilogramm-meter-second system (KMS). 
In physics, they used another widely used system which gave handier 
figures for small scale considerations, the gramm - centimeter - second 
system (CGS). In this system, the unit of force is one dyn = 1 gramm 
divided by 1 cm / s / s. 1 N = 100 000 dyn, 1 Nm = 100 000 dyn m, 1 dyn 
= 1/100 000 N. The world was a hundred thousand times smaller.

So, to make a long story short, I think your unit of kdm could mean a 
thousand dyn times meter, extremely unusual in technology and 
engineering science:
1 kdm = 1000 x 1/100 000 Nm = 1/100 Nm. Easy to confuse this dyn unit 
with dezi- = 1/10!

Now, your dad must have a pretty old car since this cgs system was 
abandoned in 1978. Are you sure that the above explanation is right, or 
is it rather the kiloDekaNewtonMeter? What is the value on that rating 
plate?

Best regards from

Peter Blodow



andy pugh schrieb:
> On 16 June 2012 00:37, N. Christopher Perry  
> wrote:
>   
>> There are about 1.3 Nm to a ft-lb.
>> 
>
> Which would reduce confusion no end, except motor manufacturers want
> bigger numbers, so like to use oz-inch in the US.
>
> There was a similar tendency in the metric world, but it seems to have
> passed. You do occasionally see motors with peculiar units, my dad has
> one with (I think) kilo-dyne-metres on the rating plate.
> (that's about 100 x Nm, ie 1 kdm = 0.01Nm)
>
>   


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Re: [Emc-users] Brushless Servo Selection?

[andy pugh]

On 16 June 2012 08:22, Peter Blodow  wrote:

> Now, your dad must have a pretty old car since this cgs system was
> abandoned in 1978. Are you sure that the above explanation is right, or
> is it rather the kiloDekaNewtonMeter?

Thinking back, it was actuality the rating of the variable-speed
gearbox that was attached to the motor.
And we didn't get much further than realising that the whole
motor/gearbox assembly was too feeble for our requirements.


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Re: [Emc-users] Brushless Servo Selection?

[Dave]

I was in engineering college from 76 to 81 and remember some discussion 
about this.   Fortunately there was not too much to discuss
as they had already decided that SI was the way to go and we had 
recently selected "new" books.   At the same time the "metric" 
revolution was in full swing and they were changing out all of their 
machine tools in the school shop so they
would all be metric.   They were removing manual machines that were 
setup in inches and replacing them with machines setup in millimeters.  
Many of the machines were old so I was happy to see them go and be 
replaced with new machines.
The school was very unique in that they encouraged students to use the 
machines and the facilities after hours.  They had a shop supervisor who 
was paid to stay late most weekday nights.  Even the garage was 
available, so we could put our cars on the lifts to do repairs and 
modifications.   When I wasn't chasing girls, I "lived" at school. :-)

Dave




On 6/16/2012 3:22 AM, Peter Blodow wrote:
> Andy,
> way back in my school time, curriculum makers detected that mass and
> force are different things. Before, forces were expressed in mass units,
> i.e., kilogramms (greek: chilioi = thousand, gramma = weight), and
> sometimes called kilogrammforce, which gives roughly identical figures
> for computations as long as we are on earth. To signify the difference,
> though, these force units were then called kiloponds (abbreviated kp,
> latin: pondus = weight).
>
> To comply with international SI units, they abandoned this unit soon
> (right after I had to learn it in school) and introduced the Newton as
> the official unit of force. Using Newton's law, it is defined by the
> force that is needed to accelerate one kilogram of mass from zero to the
> speed of one meter per second during one second (1 m / s / s) and as
> such independent of local gravity. Using the average gravity constant of
> our planet, it turns out that one Newton is approx. 1/10 of a kilopond
> or kilogrammforce (exactly 1 N = 1 / 9.81 kp = 0.102 kp). Newton himself
> never explained the difference between heavy mass and inertia of mass.
>
> For engineering purposes, and to maintain the same figures and values
> they were used to, the old mechanical engineers used metric prefixes and
> made up the DekaNewton = ten Newtons, abreviated DN (greek: deka = ten,
> abbrev. D ). One DekaNewton = 1.02 kp, so, for the time being, they
> could keep using those old handbooks and their figures of material
> properties. It was, though, easy to confuse with the abbreviation for
> "nominal diameter", DN, so this was not successful on the long run.
>
> To express angular momentum, we have to multiply force by the length of
> the lever, i.e. one meter. So we arrive at the unit DNm = 10 Nm ^= 1
> kpm, and the world is in almost perfect order again.
>
> So far, this was all based on the kilogramm-meter-second system (KMS).
> In physics, they used another widely used system which gave handier
> figures for small scale considerations, the gramm - centimeter - second
> system (CGS). In this system, the unit of force is one dyn = 1 gramm
> divided by 1 cm / s / s. 1 N = 100 000 dyn, 1 Nm = 100 000 dyn m, 1 dyn
> = 1/100 000 N. The world was a hundred thousand times smaller.
>
> So, to make a long story short, I think your unit of kdm could mean a
> thousand dyn times meter, extremely unusual in technology and
> engineering science:
> 1 kdm = 1000 x 1/100 000 Nm = 1/100 Nm. Easy to confuse this dyn unit
> with dezi- = 1/10!
>
> Now, your dad must have a pretty old car since this cgs system was
> abandoned in 1978. Are you sure that the above explanation is right, or
> is it rather the kiloDekaNewtonMeter? What is the value on that rating
> plate?
>
> Best regards from
>
> Peter Blodow
>
>
>
> andy pugh schrieb:
>
>> On 16 June 2012 00:37, N. Christopher Perry  
>> wrote:
>>
>>  
>>> There are about 1.3 Nm to a ft-lb.
>>>
>>>
>> Which would reduce confusion no end, except motor manufacturers want
>> bigger numbers, so like to use oz-inch in the US.
>>
>> There was a similar tendency in the metric world, but it seems to have
>> passed. You do occasionally see motors with peculiar units, my dad has
>> one with (I think) kilo-dyne-metres on the rating plate.
>> (that's about 100 x Nm, ie 1 kdm = 0.01Nm)
>>
>>
>>  
>
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Re: [Emc-users] Brushless Servo Selection?

[Eric Keller]

On Sat, Jun 16, 2012 at 9:31 AM, Dave  wrote:

>
> The school was very unique in that they encouraged students to use the
> machines and the facilities after hours.  They had a shop supervisor who
> was paid to stay late most weekday nights.  Even the garage was
> available, so we could put our cars on the lifts to do repairs and
> modifications.   When I wasn't chasing girls, I "lived" at school. :-)
>
> Dave
>
I expect those days are over everywhere now due to a tragic accident where
a Yale student had a fatal incident involving long hair and a lathe.
Around here, students have full access to a very nice shop, but they have
to have a funding source to use it.  Deep pockets aren't a funding source,
they have to be spending money from a school budget.  After the Yale
incident, they required us to tell the safety office about any rotating
machinery we had in our labs.  I'm pretty disappointed about this whole
situation, a mechanical engineering school of any merit should have student
shops.
Eric
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Re: [Emc-users] Brushless Servo Selection?

[andy pugh]

On 16 June 2012 14:46, Eric Keller  wrote:

>  a mechanical engineering school of any merit should have student
> shops.

We had a machine shop course as part of my Physics degree. The theory
was that we were likely to be having experimental rigs built, and
having some concept of machinability would be handy.

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Re: [Emc-users] Brushless Servo Selection?

[andy pugh]

On 16 June 2012 08:22, Peter Blodow  wrote:

> To express angular momentum, we have to multiply force by the length of
> the lever, i.e. one meter. So we arrive at the unit DNm = 10 Nm ^= 1
> kpm, and the world is in almost perfect order again.

There is a similar situation with the engine controllers I work on,
where there is a tendency to use heck Pascals (hPa) which are
coincidentally almost exactly the same as millibars.
I do think that this is purely a happy coincidence, as the Pascal
depends purely on the definitions of the kilogram and meter, with no
reference to atmospheric constants.
I think that the kg to Newton correspondence (9.81) might be less
accidental, being vaguely linked to the original definition of the
meter as the length of a "seconds pendulum"

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Re: [Emc-users] Brushless Servo Selection?

[andy pugh]

On 15 June 2012 18:40, Kirk Wallace  wrote:

> 48 Volts or rather -48 Volts DC is common for telephone equipment, so
> there may be cheap supplies available, if one knows where to look.

Very cheap indeed are these "fruit machine" power supplies:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/261031048815
With 10A at 50V they look like a potentially very useful CNC supply.

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Re: [Emc-users] Brushless Servo Selection?

[Dave]

On 6/16/2012 11:02 AM, andy pugh wrote:
> On 15 June 2012 18:40, Kirk Wallace  wrote:
>
>
>> 48 Volts or rather -48 Volts DC is common for telephone equipment, so
>> there may be cheap supplies available, if one knows where to look.
>>  
> Very cheap indeed are these "fruit machine" power supplies:
> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/261031048815
> With 10A at 50V they look like a potentially very useful CNC supply.
>
>

Fruit machines??   What is a fruit machine?

Do you know what we call them in the US?

Dave

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Re: [Emc-users] Brushless Servo Selection?

[Dave]

On 6/16/2012 9:46 AM, Eric Keller wrote:
> On Sat, Jun 16, 2012 at 9:31 AM, Dave  wrote:
>
>
>> The school was very unique in that they encouraged students to use the
>> machines and the facilities after hours.  They had a shop supervisor who
>> was paid to stay late most weekday nights.  Even the garage was
>> available, so we could put our cars on the lifts to do repairs and
>> modifications.   When I wasn't chasing girls, I "lived" at school. :-)
>>
>> Dave
>>
>>  
> I expect those days are over everywhere now due to a tragic accident where
> a Yale student had a fatal incident involving long hair and a lathe.
> Around here, students have full access to a very nice shop, but they have
> to have a funding source to use it.  Deep pockets aren't a funding source,
> they have to be spending money from a school budget.  After the Yale
> incident, they required us to tell the safety office about any rotating
> machinery we had in our labs.  I'm pretty disappointed about this whole
> situation, a mechanical engineering school of any merit should have student
> shops.
> Eric
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>

When I was in school they were pushing really hard to get women into the 
program plus back in those days some of the guys had fairly long hair 
also (even I had a lot more hair then than I do now!)

Shop safety was very important.  If you didn't have safety classes and 
your hair tied back they wouldn't let you close to the machines.  We had 
to check in with the guy running the shop at the time to get cutters, 
bits, etc.
Ties (we actually wore them sometimes) were not allowed around 
machines.   The unfortunate fact is that stuff happens, and people 
sometimes die.  They will get over that,  but it might take a while 
unfortunately.
Administrators seem to think that they can eliminate any chance of 
people getting hurt - but it is not possible.

Machinery can be dangerous.I've been around a few industrial 
accidents where people have been killed.  In hindsight they are always 
preventable.  But people sometimes do the wrong things.

 >>a mechanical engineering school of any merit should have student

shops.

I agree.  If they eliminate it and another school does not, then they will be 
at a disadvantage.

Dave

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Re: [Emc-users] Brushless Servo Selection?

[John Prentice]

>
> Fruit machines??   What is a fruit machine?
>
> Do you know what we call them in the US?
>
> Dave


Slot Machine or One arm bandit I think.

Fruit machine is from graphics commonly used on the rotating drums.

I note the supplies are multi-output switchers. The cross-regulation between 
different outputs might be a problem

John Prentice 


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Re: [Emc-users] Brushless Servo Selection?

[Peter Blodow]

Andy,
1 Pa = 1 N/sq. meter, a very impractical unit. Therefore, the "bar" as 
the most commonly used pressure unit of today, not a SI unit, is only 
accepted as an exception to be near the previously used "atmosphere" = 1 
kp/sq.cm.
1 hPa (hectoPascal) = 100 Pa (greek: hekaton = hundred). The heck with it.
1 bar = 100 000 Pa = 1.02 kp/sq.cm, so 1 mbar = 1.02 hPa.
The lenght of a "1 meter pendulum" giving exactly one second is about 
0.994  m, a bare coincidence. The meter was first defined as 1/40 000 of 
the earth's circumference and later on by the length of the 
platimum-iridium specimen in Paris. The factor of 9.81 is owed to the 
earth's a acceleration of a falling piece of mass measured to be g = 
9.81 m/s squared, purely accidental.

Greetings
Peter

andy pugh schrieb:
> There is a similar situation with the engine controllers I work on,
> where there is a tendency to use heck Pascals (hPa) which are
> coincidentally almost exactly the same as millibars.
> I do think that this is purely a happy coincidence, as the Pascal
> depends purely on the definitions of the kilogram and meter, with no
> reference to atmospheric constants.
> I think that the kg to Newton correspondence (9.81) might be less
> accidental, being vaguely linked to the original definition of the
> meter as the length of a "seconds pendulum"
>
>   


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Re: [Emc-users] Brushless Servo Selection?

[Peter Blodow]

Dave,
funny thing is that European lathes in those days you were describing, 
many still working today,  were equipped with inch lead screws, so that 
in order to cut mm threads they have to use a 127 teeth gear in the gear 
case to drive the lead screw. This way, our industry wanted to become 
compatible with the British and American manufacturers for export
And although we are using metric units here in Germany since the late 
1880ies, we still buy heating and water pipes, fittings etc. in inch 
measures. When I sometimes bring my timber to be cut to our local 
sawmill, I specify 3/4 inch or one inch boards to be made out of it, 
although they will be measured as 20 or 25 mm boards.
By the way, how come that in this mailing list everybody speaks in 
inches - you were writing about the metric revolution?

Peter


Dave schrieb:
> I was in engineering college from 76 to 81 and remember some discussion 
> about this.   Fortunately there was not too much to discuss
> as they had already decided that SI was the way to go and we had 
> recently selected "new" books.   At the same time the "metric" 
> revolution was in full swing and they were changing out all of their 
> machine tools in the school shop so they
> would all be metric.   They were removing manual machines that were 
> setup in inches and replacing them with machines setup in millimeters.  
> Many of the machines were old so I was happy to see them go and be 
> replaced with new machines.
> The school was very unique in that they encouraged students to use the 
> machines and the facilities after hours.  They had a shop supervisor who 
> was paid to stay late most weekday nights.  Even the garage was 
> available, so we could put our cars on the lifts to do repairs and 
> modifications.   When I wasn't chasing girls, I "lived" at school. :-)
>
> Dave
>   


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Re: [Emc-users] Brushless Servo Selection?

[gene heskett]

On Saturday, June 16, 2012 12:14:55 PM Eric Keller did opine:

> On Sat, Jun 16, 2012 at 9:31 AM, Dave  wrote:
> > The school was very unique in that they encouraged students to use the
> > machines and the facilities after hours.  They had a shop supervisor
> > who was paid to stay late most weekday nights.  Even the garage was
> > available, so we could put our cars on the lifts to do repairs and
> > modifications.   When I wasn't chasing girls, I "lived" at school.   
> >  :-)
> > 
> > Dave
> 
> I expect those days are over everywhere now due to a tragic accident
> where a Yale student had a fatal incident involving long hair and a
> lathe. Around here, students have full access to a very nice shop, but
> they have to have a funding source to use it.  Deep pockets aren't a
> funding source, they have to be spending money from a school budget. 
> After the Yale incident, they required us to tell the safety office
> about any rotating machinery we had in our labs.  I'm pretty
> disappointed about this whole situation, a mechanical engineering
> school of any merit should have student shops.
> Eric

When will the friggin lawyers understand that you can't save stupid from 
himself?

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Cheers, Gene
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[Emc-users] 5i25 detected, but not the 7i77 yet

[Maximilian H]

Hello,

I have now spend the last few hours trying to create a first lab setup
with the mesanet 5i25 and the 7i77, but the 7i77 is not recognized at
all. In general I have been setting up and running a few machines with
the 7i43 cards since 2008 now-so I am not a total noob.

The 5i25 is installed in a pci slot. The 7i77 is connected to the 5i25
with a ribbon cable that is connected to the P3 on the 5i25. W2 is
down,i.e. the 5i25 does not supply +5V to the 7i77. The ribbon cable is
45cm long. Pin1 on the 5i25's p3 db25 is on pin1 on the 7i77.

The 7i77 has +5V and GND on TB1 and +12V on TB2 (12V on pin1 and GND on
pin 8.) W1 is on the left side, i.e. VIN gets power from VFIELD. W5 is
on the right side, i.e. the 7i77 uses power from TB1. Measured voltages
are +4,98V on TB1 and +12,02V on TB2.

The computer runs ubuntu 10.04 32 bits from linuxcnc installation cd.

Linuxcnc is at version 2.5 from the repository.

The 5i25 is installed in a pci slot and recognized when I loadrt hm2_pci
without any num_encoders in the config parameter. But from various post
I see that the 7i77 should be recognized when hm2_pci is loaded, which
it is not in my case.

LEDs CR1, CR7, R61 and CR3 are lid up on the 7i77.

Can somebody perhaps point me in the right direction ?

More details:

>From lspci -v:
03:01.0 DPIO module: Device 2718:5125
Subsystem: Device 2718:5125
Flags: fast devsel, IRQ 16
Memory at febf (32-bit, non-prefetchable) [size=64K]

Now when I run halrun and loadrt the following happens:

First terminal:
$ halrun
halcmd: loadrt hostmot2

Second terminal:
[ 6918.164123] I-pipe: Domain RTAI registered.
[ 6918.164131] RTAI[hal]: <3.8.1> mounted over IPIPE-NOTHREADS 2.6-03.
[ 6918.164132] RTAI[hal]: compiled with gcc version 4.4.3 (Ubuntu
4.4.3-4ubuntu5) .
[ 6918.164156] RTAI[hal]: mounted (IPIPE-NOTHREADS, IMMEDIATE (INTERNAL
IRQs DISPATCHED), ISOL_CPUS_MASK: 0).
[ 6918.164158] PIPELINE layers:
[ 6918.164160] fb154e20 9ac15d93 RTAI 200
[ 6918.164162] c085cb20 0 Linux 100
[ 6918.179447] RTAI[malloc]: global heap size = 2097152 bytes, .
[ 6918.179588] RTAI[sched]: IMMEDIATE, MP, USER/KERNEL SPACE: , kstacks pool size = 524288 bytes.
[ 6918.179593] RTAI[sched]: hard timer type/freq = APIC/12503538(Hz);
default timing: periodic; linear timed lists.
[ 6918.179596] RTAI[sched]: Linux timer freq = 250 (Hz), TimeBase freq =
2600669000 hz.
[ 6918.179598] RTAI[sched]: timer setup = 999 ns, resched latency = 2944 ns.
[ 6918.179672] RTAI[usi]: enabled.
[ 6918.226253] RTAI[math]: loaded.
[ 6925.687839] hm2: loading Mesa HostMot2 driver version 0.15

In the following examples I always did an unloadrt hm2_pci to clean up
before attempting to load hm2_pci again.
-
So far so good, now in the first "halrun" terminal

halcmd: loadrt hm2_pci config="num_encoders=6 num_stepgens=0 num_pwmgens=6"
insmod: error inserting
'/usr/realtime-2.6.32-122-rtai/modules/linuxcnc/hm2_pci.ko': -1 Invalid
parameters
:3: exit value: 1
:3: insmod failed, returned -1
See the output of 'dmesg' for more information.

In the second terminal:
[ 7094.230021] hm2_pci: loading Mesa AnyIO HostMot2 driver version 0.7
[ 7094.230062] hm2_pci :03:01.0: PCI INT A -> GSI 16 (level, low) ->
IRQ 16
[ 7094.230065] hm2_pci: discovered 5i25 at :03:01.0
[ 7094.230615] hm2/hm2_5i25.0: config.num_encoders=6, but only 2 are
available, not loading driver
[ 7094.230619] hm2/hm2_5i25.0: failed to parse Module Descriptor 2
[ 7094.230625] hm2_5i25.0: board fails HM2 registration
[ 7094.230641] hm2_pci :03:01.0: PCI INT A disabled
[ 7094.230651] hm2_pci: probe of :03:01.0 failed with error -22
-
I also tried this loadrt line, but that does fail to see the 7i77 too,
but the 5i25 is recognized, but only gives two encoders (from where?).

halcmd: loadrt hm2_pci config="num_stepgens=0 num_pwmgens=6"

[ 7186.682013] hm2_pci: loading Mesa AnyIO HostMot2 driver version 0.7
[ 7186.682054] hm2_pci :03:01.0: PCI INT A -> GSI 16 (level, low) ->
IRQ 16
[ 7186.682057] hm2_pci: discovered 5i25 at :03:01.0
[ 7186.682723] hm2/hm2_5i25.0: Smart Serial Firmware Version 31
[ 7186.738177] hm2/hm2_5i25.0: 34 I/O Pins used:
[ 7186.738181] hm2/hm2_5i25.0: IO Pin 000 (P3-01): IOPort
[ 7186.738183] hm2/hm2_5i25.0: IO Pin 001 (P3-14): IOPort
[ 7186.738185] hm2/hm2_5i25.0: IO Pin 002 (P3-02): IOPort
[ 7186.738187] hm2/hm2_5i25.0: IO Pin 003 (P3-15): IOPort
[ 7186.738189] hm2/hm2_5i25.0: IO Pin 004 (P3-03): IOPort
[ 7186.738191] hm2/hm2_5i25.0: IO Pin 005 (P3-16): IOPort
[ 7186.738193] hm2/hm2_5i25.0: IO Pin 006 (P3-04): IOPort
[ 7186.738195] hm2/hm2_5i25.0: IO Pin 007 (P3-17): IOPort
[ 7186.738196] hm2/hm2_5i25.0: IO Pin 008 (P3-05): IOPort
[ 7186.738198] hm2/hm2_5i25.0: IO Pin 009 (P3-06): IOPort
[ 7186.738200] hm2/hm2_5i25.0: IO Pin 010 (P3-07): IOPo

Re: [Emc-users] Brushless Servo Selection?

[Peter Blodow]

You can't save anybody from himself, but I understand that nobody will 
be made responsible for the stupid killing themselves. This is the 
consequence of today's "holy law" that nowadays nothing can happen 
without someone being responsible (even if nobody really is). Makes a 
lot of money for the lawyers.

Peter

gene heskett schrieb:
> On Saturday, June 16, 2012 12:14:55 PM Eric Keller did opine:
>   
> When will the friggin lawyers understand that you can't save stupid from 
> himself?
>   


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Re: [Emc-users] Brushless Servo Selection?

[gene heskett]

On Saturday, June 16, 2012 12:27:40 PM andy pugh did opine:

> On 15 June 2012 18:40, Kirk Wallace  wrote:
> > 48 Volts or rather -48 Volts DC is common for telephone equipment, so
> > there may be cheap supplies available, if one knows where to look.
> 
> Very cheap indeed are these "fruit machine" power supplies:
> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/261031048815
> With 10A at 50V they look like a potentially very useful CNC supply.

20 UKP + 12 ukp postage?  Needs 230 vac?  I think I'll pass.

Cheers, Gene
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My web page: 
audophile, n:
Someone who listens to the equipment instead of the music.

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Re: [Emc-users] Brushless Servo Selection?

[andy pugh]

On 16 June 2012 17:01, Peter Blodow  wrote:
> Andy,
> 1 Pa = 1 N/sq. meter, a very impractical unit.

I know this stuff, I have a physics degree.
In fact many years ago the NPL invited me along to a colloquium
discussing how best to re-define the kilogram.
(Because it is currently based on a lump of platinum-iridium, not on
any "portable" physical constants. In fact the master kilogram and the
sub-standards are all drifting in different directions, and that is
causing some concern. I think the current plan is to use a perfect
sphere of silicon, and then relate the kg back to the meter (which can
be re-built from the wavelength of a particular light source). The NPL
were looking at using a rotating Watt Balance at the time)

-- 
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Re: [Emc-users] Brushless Servo Selection?

[Dave]

>>By the way, how come that in this mailing list everybody speaks in
inches - you were writing about the metric revolution?<<

That is the really goofy thing.. the end result was that we are now about half 
and half, english and metric.

After the big metric push back in the late 70's, the car companies went fully 
metric by about the mid to late 80's, but many US made goods are still english.

In my tool chest I have a full set of english and metric sockets which gets 
quite bulky.

The said, if I want to buy english nuts and bolts, I can buy them by them in 
bulk pound (weight measure) in grades 2-8 at a local tractor/farm equipment 
supply store.

If I want to buy metric bolts and nuts locally I have to either buy them from 
an industrial supply store (limited hours) or buy them one at a time at a price 
which can be 3-4 times the bulk price of similar english fasteners.

So the use of english fasteners in the US is reinforced by the availability of 
cheap and available english fasteners.   Ironically most of those fasteners are 
made in Asia or China.

The metric system has some issues..   Buying a 2x4 which is 10 feet long and 
specifying that in millimeters seems crazy.  Pipe fittings would be ok for 
diameter but if I want to but a piece of 2" pipe which is 21 feet long, 
specifying 51 mm in diameter and 6.x meters long seems totally counter 
intuitive.  I guess the advantage is that fractions become non-existent which 
would be a big improvement.

Dave



On 6/16/2012 12:13 PM, Peter Blodow wrote:
> Dave,
> funny thing is that European lathes in those days you were describing,
> many still working today,  were equipped with inch lead screws, so that
> in order to cut mm threads they have to use a 127 teeth gear in the gear
> case to drive the lead screw. This way, our industry wanted to become
> compatible with the British and American manufacturers for export
> And although we are using metric units here in Germany since the late
> 1880ies, we still buy heating and water pipes, fittings etc. in inch
> measures. When I sometimes bring my timber to be cut to our local
> sawmill, I specify 3/4 inch or one inch boards to be made out of it,
> although they will be measured as 20 or 25 mm boards.
> By the way, how come that in this mailing list everybody speaks in
> inches - you were writing about the metric revolution?
>
> Peter
>
>
> Dave schrieb:
>
>> I was in engineering college from 76 to 81 and remember some discussion
>> about this.   Fortunately there was not too much to discuss
>> as they had already decided that SI was the way to go and we had
>> recently selected "new" books.   At the same time the "metric"
>> revolution was in full swing and they were changing out all of their
>> machine tools in the school shop so they
>> would all be metric.   They were removing manual machines that were
>> setup in inches and replacing them with machines setup in millimeters.
>> Many of the machines were old so I was happy to see them go and be
>> replaced with new machines.
>> The school was very unique in that they encouraged students to use the
>> machines and the facilities after hours.  They had a shop supervisor who
>> was paid to stay late most weekday nights.  Even the garage was
>> available, so we could put our cars on the lifts to do repairs and
>> modifications.   When I wasn't chasing girls, I "lived" at school. :-)
>>
>> Dave
>>
>>  
>
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Re: [Emc-users] Brushless Servo Selection?

[gene heskett]

On Saturday, June 16, 2012 12:31:47 PM Peter Blodow did opine:

> Dave,
> funny thing is that European lathes in those days you were describing,
> many still working today,  were equipped with inch lead screws, so that
> in order to cut mm threads they have to use a 127 teeth gear in the gear
> case to drive the lead screw. This way, our industry wanted to become
> compatible with the British and American manufacturers for export
> And although we are using metric units here in Germany since the late
> 1880ies, we still buy heating and water pipes, fittings etc. in inch
> measures. When I sometimes bring my timber to be cut to our local
> sawmill, I specify 3/4 inch or one inch boards to be made out of it,
> although they will be measured as 20 or 25 mm boards.
> By the way, how come that in this mailing list everybody speaks in
> inches - you were writing about the metric revolution?
> 
> Peter
> 
Peter, I was all on that hay ride for as long as it lasted.  But when the 
gas stations that first put in pumps that measured liters made note that 
their monthly usage pumped into the customers tanks dropped to 10% because 
folks would just drive on down the street where they could buy gas by the 
gallon, a unit they had used all their lives, that effect brought the 
metric conversion of the US to a screeching halt.  The rest of the system 
did go metric, but that today is entirely the effect of all the 
manufacturing having been exported.  Had they put dual displays in the gas 
pumps for a few years, so folks could see at a glance what they were 
paying, they might have been able to let the gallons displays gradually 
fail, but some numbed nuts bean counter apparently wouldn't consider that 
idea.  Instead, we took very careful aim and shot ourselves in both feet.

I suspect real estate was also to be a holdout, hell, nobody around here 
has a clue what a hectar is, not even me.
 
> Dave schrieb:
> > I was in engineering college from 76 to 81 and remember some
> > discussion about this.   Fortunately there was not too much to
> > discuss
> > as they had already decided that SI was the way to go and we had
> > recently selected "new" books.   At the same time the "metric"
> > revolution was in full swing and they were changing out all of their
> > machine tools in the school shop so they
> > would all be metric.   They were removing manual machines that were
> > setup in inches and replacing them with machines setup in millimeters.
> > Many of the machines were old so I was happy to see them go and be
> > replaced with new machines.
> > The school was very unique in that they encouraged students to use the
> > machines and the facilities after hours.  They had a shop supervisor
> > who was paid to stay late most weekday nights.  Even the garage was
> > available, so we could put our cars on the lifts to do repairs and
> > modifications.   When I wasn't chasing girls, I "lived" at school.   
> >  :-)
> > 
> > Dave
> 
> 
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Cheers, Gene
-- 
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 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
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A diplomatic husband said to his wife, "How do you expect me to remember
your birthday when you never look any older?"

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Re: [Emc-users] Brushless Servo Selection?

[Dave]

On 6/16/2012 12:16 PM, gene heskett wrote:
> On Saturday, June 16, 2012 12:14:55 PM Eric Keller did opine:
>
>
>> On Sat, Jun 16, 2012 at 9:31 AM, Dave  wrote:
>>  
>>> The school was very unique in that they encouraged students to use the
>>> machines and the facilities after hours.  They had a shop supervisor
>>> who was paid to stay late most weekday nights.  Even the garage was
>>> available, so we could put our cars on the lifts to do repairs and
>>> modifications.   When I wasn't chasing girls, I "lived" at school.
>>>   :-)
>>>
>>> Dave
>>>
>> I expect those days are over everywhere now due to a tragic accident
>> where a Yale student had a fatal incident involving long hair and a
>> lathe. Around here, students have full access to a very nice shop, but
>> they have to have a funding source to use it.  Deep pockets aren't a
>> funding source, they have to be spending money from a school budget.
>> After the Yale incident, they required us to tell the safety office
>> about any rotating machinery we had in our labs.  I'm pretty
>> disappointed about this whole situation, a mechanical engineering
>> school of any merit should have student shops.
>> Eric
>>  
> When will the friggin lawyers understand that you can't save stupid from
> himself?
>
>

They already understand that.   But since they can still make loads of $ 
from idiots doing stupid things, why stop?

Remember the lady that sued McDonalds for having the coffee too hot!

Now all of our McDonalds coffee is just above cool.   :-(  And the women 
and the lawyers made some serious cash.

Dave


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Re: [Emc-users] 5i25 detected, but not the 7i77 yet

[andy pugh]

On 16 June 2012 17:23, Maximilian H  wrote:

> [ 7094.230615] hm2/hm2_5i25.0: config.num_encoders=6, but only 2 are
> available, not loading driver

My first guess would be that the 5i25 does not contain the correct
firmware for the 7i77 for some reason.

If you turn on debug logging then the driver will print the firmware
version and config into dmesg.
You can turn on debug logging with:
echo 5 > /proc/rtapi/debug
But only when rtai is running, so it needs to be done from a different
terminal window to halcmd.

The "Support Software" download from mesanet.com has a linux tool for
flashing the firmware, and various firmwares.

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Re: [Emc-users] 5i25 detected, but not the 7i77 yet

[Peter C. Wallace]

On Sat, 16 Jun 2012, andy pugh wrote:

> Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2012 17:45:09 +0100
> From: andy pugh 
> Reply-To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)"
> 
> To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)" 
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] 5i25 detected, but not the 7i77 yet
> 
> On 16 June 2012 17:23, Maximilian H  wrote:
>
>> [ 7094.230615] hm2/hm2_5i25.0: config.num_encoders=6, but only 2 are
>> available, not loading driver
>
> My first guess would be that the 5i25 does not contain the correct
> firmware for the 7i77 for some reason.
>
>

That would be my thought as well (only 2 encoders found when all 
enabled suggests a 7I76x2 config to me)


Other things to note

1. There are no PWM gens used with 7I77s (or standard 7I76 configs)
so invoking one will always cause a error

2. I would use a config line like this as I have seen some trouble  (possibly
fixed) with wildcard (missing specs) sserial configs

BOARD=5i25
CONFIG="num_encoders=6 sserial_port_0=000xxx"

Peter Wallace
Mesa Electronics

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Re: [Emc-users] Brushless Servo Selection?

[Jon Elson]

Peter Blodow wrote:
> By the way, how come that in this mailing list everybody speaks in 
> inches - you were writing about the metric revolution?
>   
Well, in the US, the metric revolution came and went.  Certain 
industries (aircraft
manufacturing and auto manufacturing) have gone totally metric, but must 
other
stuff has not.  We had traffic signs in km and km/h for a while, but 
then they all
got pulled out and we went back to miles and MPH.  They are only somewhat
teaching our kids the metric system, at least until high school 
chemistry and
physics classes.

Even our Chinese-liaison PCB manufacturer wants the design files in inch 
units,
they then convert to mm before sending the designs to China for 
manufacturing.

When my boss designs some scientific apparatus in mm and hands the 
drawing to
our shop, they dutifully convert the whole drawing to inches before 
making the
parts.

Thanks goodness the local hardware store has a rack of boxes of metric 
fasteners,
so when I need something I can get them.

Jon

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Re: [Emc-users] Brushless Servo Selection?

[Mike Bennett]

Gene

They solved the litres issue in the UK but making it illegal to sell most 
things in anything but metric units.  However we still measure distance in 
miles, so what units should we be working out our fuel economy?  Miles per 
litre?

At least we can still buy beer in pints ( 20oz ones of course :-) )

Mike



On 16 Jun 2012, at 17:41, gene heskett  wrote:

>> 
> Peter, I was all on that hay ride for as long as it lasted.  But when the 
> gas stations that first put in pumps that measured liters made note that 
> their monthly usage pumped into the customers tanks dropped to 10% because 
> folks would just drive on down the street where they could buy gas by the 
> gallon, a unit they had used all their lives, that effect brought the 
> metric conversion of the US to a screeching halt.  The rest of the system 
> did go metric, but that today is entirely the effect of all the 
> manufacturing having been exported.  Had they put dual displays in the gas 
> pumps for a few years, so folks could see at a glance what they were 
> paying, they might have been able to let the gallons displays gradually 
> fail, but some numbed nuts bean counter apparently wouldn't consider that 
> idea.  Instead, we took very careful aim and shot ourselves in both feet.
> 
> I suspect real estate was also to be a holdout, hell, nobody around here 
> has a clue what a hectar is, not even me.
> 
>> 

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[Emc-users] (no subject)

[Luis Antonio de Andrade]

http://carnequina.com/wp-content/themes/decoder/kgohng.html?nbb=jc.kffn&jkk=cn.kjkk&jki=hfvs
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Re: [Emc-users] Brushless Servo Selection?

[andy pugh]

On 16 June 2012 18:05, Jon Elson  wrote:

> Well, in the US, the metric revolution came and went.  Certain
> industries (aircraft
> manufacturing and auto manufacturing) have gone totally metric

Not entirely.
Part of our ECU code is being written by Ford in the USA, to plug into
the code written in France, the UK and Germany by the supplier and the
designer.
Imagine my annoyance to find that the very first thing that the US
code did was convert the incoming temperature signal to Fahrenheit,
then convert it back again at the output port.

Considering that the numbers are all scaled representations of the
real values as 16-bit ints this makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

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Re: [Emc-users] Brushless Servo Selection?

[Dave]

>>I suspect real estate was also to be a holdout, hell, nobody around here
has a clue what a hectar is, not even me.<<

I think that Hectars are english also, as well as fathoms, etc.

You need to get your head wrapped around square meters.   (Good luck with 
that!)  I don't have a meter stick, but I have several yard sticks.
So how can you estimate realestate in square meters if you don't even have a 
meter stick??

But I have two feet and my shoes are right at 13 inches.. so if I walk toe to 
toe .  ;-)  (I do that more than I care to admit.)

Dave



On 6/16/2012 12:41 PM, gene heskett wrote:
> On Saturday, June 16, 2012 12:31:47 PM Peter Blodow did opine:
>
>
>> Dave,
>> funny thing is that European lathes in those days you were describing,
>> many still working today,  were equipped with inch lead screws, so that
>> in order to cut mm threads they have to use a 127 teeth gear in the gear
>> case to drive the lead screw. This way, our industry wanted to become
>> compatible with the British and American manufacturers for export
>> And although we are using metric units here in Germany since the late
>> 1880ies, we still buy heating and water pipes, fittings etc. in inch
>> measures. When I sometimes bring my timber to be cut to our local
>> sawmill, I specify 3/4 inch or one inch boards to be made out of it,
>> although they will be measured as 20 or 25 mm boards.
>> By the way, how come that in this mailing list everybody speaks in
>> inches - you were writing about the metric revolution?
>>
>> Peter
>>
>>  
> Peter, I was all on that hay ride for as long as it lasted.  But when the
> gas stations that first put in pumps that measured liters made note that
> their monthly usage pumped into the customers tanks dropped to 10% because
> folks would just drive on down the street where they could buy gas by the
> gallon, a unit they had used all their lives, that effect brought the
> metric conversion of the US to a screeching halt.  The rest of the system
> did go metric, but that today is entirely the effect of all the
> manufacturing having been exported.  Had they put dual displays in the gas
> pumps for a few years, so folks could see at a glance what they were
> paying, they might have been able to let the gallons displays gradually
> fail, but some numbed nuts bean counter apparently wouldn't consider that
> idea.  Instead, we took very careful aim and shot ourselves in both feet.
>
> I suspect real estate was also to be a holdout, hell, nobody around here
> has a clue what a hectar is, not even me.
>
>
>> Dave schrieb:
>>  
>>> I was in engineering college from 76 to 81 and remember some
>>> discussion about this.   Fortunately there was not too much to
>>> discuss
>>> as they had already decided that SI was the way to go and we had
>>> recently selected "new" books.   At the same time the "metric"
>>> revolution was in full swing and they were changing out all of their
>>> machine tools in the school shop so they
>>> would all be metric.   They were removing manual machines that were
>>> setup in inches and replacing them with machines setup in millimeters.
>>> Many of the machines were old so I was happy to see them go and be
>>> replaced with new machines.
>>> The school was very unique in that they encouraged students to use the
>>> machines and the facilities after hours.  They had a shop supervisor
>>> who was paid to stay late most weekday nights.  Even the garage was
>>> available, so we could put our cars on the lifts to do repairs and
>>> modifications.   When I wasn't chasing girls, I "lived" at school.
>>>   :-)
>>>
>>> Dave
>>>
>> 
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>>  
>
> Cheers, Gene
>


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Re: [Emc-users] Brushless Servo Selection?

[Dave]

I remember Italy was km/hr years ago.  I thought the UK was in km/hr also.

So at this point, I guess it is a safe bet that the UK will not be going 
to the Euro anytime soon?   ;-)

Dave

On 6/16/2012 1:08 PM, Mike Bennett wrote:
> Gene
>
> They solved the litres issue in the UK but making it illegal to sell most 
> things in anything but metric units.  However we still measure distance in 
> miles, so what units should we be working out our fuel economy?  Miles per 
> litre?
>
> At least we can still buy beer in pints ( 20oz ones of course :-) )
>
> Mike
>
>
>
> On 16 Jun 2012, at 17:41, gene heskett  wrote:
>
>
>>>
>> Peter, I was all on that hay ride for as long as it lasted.  But when the
>> gas stations that first put in pumps that measured liters made note that
>> their monthly usage pumped into the customers tanks dropped to 10% because
>> folks would just drive on down the street where they could buy gas by the
>> gallon, a unit they had used all their lives, that effect brought the
>> metric conversion of the US to a screeching halt.  The rest of the system
>> did go metric, but that today is entirely the effect of all the
>> manufacturing having been exported.  Had they put dual displays in the gas
>> pumps for a few years, so folks could see at a glance what they were
>> paying, they might have been able to let the gallons displays gradually
>> fail, but some numbed nuts bean counter apparently wouldn't consider that
>> idea.  Instead, we took very careful aim and shot ourselves in both feet.
>>
>> I suspect real estate was also to be a holdout, hell, nobody around here
>> has a clue what a hectar is, not even me.
>>
>>  
>>>
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Re: [Emc-users] Brushless Servo Selection?

[Dave]

On 6/16/2012 1:45 PM, andy pugh wrote:
> On 16 June 2012 18:05, Jon Elson  wrote:
>
>
>> Well, in the US, the metric revolution came and went.  Certain
>> industries (aircraft
>> manufacturing and auto manufacturing) have gone totally metric
>>  
> Not entirely.
> Part of our ECU code is being written by Ford in the USA, to plug into
> the code written in France, the UK and Germany by the supplier and the
> designer.
> Imagine my annoyance to find that the very first thing that the US
> code did was convert the incoming temperature signal to Fahrenheit,
> then convert it back again at the output port.
>
> Considering that the numbers are all scaled representations of the
> real values as 16-bit ints this makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.
>
>

That is really funny.

The problem is that us Americans can't think in anything but 
Fahrenheit!   ;-)

Dave

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Re: [Emc-users] Brushless Servo Selection?

[andy pugh]

On 16 June 2012 18:48, Dave  wrote:
>>>I suspect real estate was also to be a holdout, hell, nobody around here
> has a clue what a hectar is, not even me.<<
>
> I think that Hectars are english also, as well as fathoms, etc.

No, the Hectare is metric.

An Are is an area 1km x 1km. A Hectare is 1/100 of that. So, a hectare
is the area of a square 100m on a side.
(1 million square metres to the Are, 10,000m^2 to the hectare.)

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Re: [Emc-users] Brushless Servo Selection?

[Viesturs Lācis]

2012/6/16 andy pugh :
> On 16 June 2012 18:48, Dave  wrote:
I suspect real estate was also to be a holdout, hell, nobody around here
>> has a clue what a hectar is, not even me.<<
>>
>> I think that Hectars are english also, as well as fathoms, etc.
>
> No, the Hectare is metric.
>
> An Are is an area 1km x 1km. A Hectare is 1/100 of that. So, a hectare
> is the area of a square 100m on a side.
> (1 million square metres to the Are, 10,000m^2 to the hectare.)

1/100 is centi - centimeter is 1/100 of meter.
Hectolitre is 100 litres, so I guess hectare is 100 ares, which means
that 1 is area of 10x10 m.

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Re: [Emc-users] Brushless Servo Selection?

[Viesturs Lācis]

2012/6/16 John Prentice :
>
>>
>> Fruit machines??   What is a fruit machine?
>>
>> Do you know what we call them in the US?
>>
>> Dave
>
>
> Slot Machine or One arm bandit I think.

The same that look like Mach3 :))

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Re: [Emc-users] Brushless Servo Selection?

[andy pugh]

On 16 June 2012 20:02, Viesturs Lācis  wrote:

> 1/100 is centi - centimeter is 1/100 of meter.
> Hectolitre is 100 litres, so I guess hectare is 100 ares, which means
> that 1 is area of 10x10 m.

You are quite right, I don't know how I got that wrong.
Except that hecto and centi are _not_ prefixes in the SI system.

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Re: [Emc-users] Brushless Servo Selection?

[Peter Blodow]

> I know this stuff, I have a physics degree.
>   
Sorry, didn't mean to insult you.
> In fact many years ago the NPL invited me along to a colloquium
> discussing how best to re-define the kilogram.
> (Because it is currently based on a lump of platinum-iridium, not on
> any "portable" physical constants. In fact the master kilogram and the
> sub-standards are all drifting in different directions, and that is
> causing some concern. I think the current plan is to use a perfect
> sphere of silicon, 
>   
...which my collegues at the PTB (German Federal Physical-Technologiocal 
Institute) at Braunschweig have been doing for the last, say, 15 years. 
Filing single atoms from a sphere, puuuh...

Peter


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Re: [Emc-users] Brushless Servo Selection?

[Kent A. Reed]

On 6/16/2012 2:54 PM, andy pugh wrote:
> On 16 June 2012 18:48, Dave  wrote:
 I suspect real estate was also to be a holdout, hell, nobody around here
>> has a clue what a hectar is, not even me.<<
>>
>> I think that Hectars are english also, as well as fathoms, etc.
> No, the Hectare is metric.
>
> An Are is an area 1km x 1km. A Hectare is 1/100 of that. So, a hectare
> is the area of a square 100m on a side.
> (1 million square metres to the Are, 10,000m^2 to the hectare.)
>

Real estate is all about land records. Even in the relatively young US, 
land records now stretch back 300 years. No way anybody is going to be 
in a hurry to convert them to some newfangled system of units. GPS is no 
panacea. Almost no one's land deed, and certainly not mine, is described 
in terms that are easily confirmed by GPS survey, and even if I 
resurveyed my property I'd have to convince all my adjoining neighbors 
to go along as well as the county-record office before I could use the 
new measures in a sale of my property.  Taint a cheap proposition even 
if everyone is being reasonable about it, and how often are people 
reasonable about land? Things are changing in land management , more 
because of the spread of GIS than anything else, but they are changing 
very slowly considering the technologies involved were settled decades ago.

Standards, including units of measure, are intimately tied to commerce; 
hence my former employer, NIST, nee NBS, is in the US Department of 
Commerce.

There have been least three official attempts at metrification in the 
USA in my lifetime, several of which NBS played a role in. None really 
took root (I exclude engineers and scientists) although many items on 
the shelves of stores I frequent are now marked in both "English" and 
"metric" units. Simplistically, I think it's because export of goods and 
services accounts for little more than 10 percent of our gross domestic 
product. That's a little tail on a big dog.

This is a people problem that is not unique to the US. Look at the UK. 
Even though export accounts for some 30 percent of its GDP I know from 
firsthand experience that there is still a sizable resistance to SI. In 
neither the US nor the UK has legislation and its implementing 
regulations been completely successful. Lots of trade will give those 
who have the ability to change a monetary incentive to do so and lots of 
time will allow those who can't change to die away.

Standards are intimately tied to agreements as well. 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kilogram gives a nice sampling of the work 
that has been going into reaching international agreement on the 
redefinition of the kilogram.

Regards,
Kent


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Re: [Emc-users] Brushless Servo Selection?

[Viesturs Lācis]

2012/6/16 andy pugh :
>
> You are quite right, I don't know how I got that wrong.
> Except that hecto and centi are _not_ prefixes in the SI system.
>

Could be, I do not know for sure...

BTW the metric vs imperial systems and UK being somewhere inbetween
(litres from metric system and miles from imperial), I just remembered
one interesting moment from a metrology class:
In whole mainland Europe screw threads are metric, pipe threads are in
imperial units. Which does not make much of a sense to me, why would
they be separated, but then professor mentioned that pipe threads in
UK are not imperial (I _think_ that screw threads are imperial in
UK)...
So I think that pipe thread in UK has to be metric, which makes me
think that English people are doing this on purpose :))

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Re: [Emc-users] 5i25 detected, but not the 7i77 yet

[Maximilian H]

Hello Andy, Hello Peter,

thanks for your fast replies. I will try the firmware tool in the
support software 5i25.zip that you suggested + the loadrt line without
the pwmgens on Monday.

Thanks
BR
Max.



> On Sat, 16 Jun 2012, andy pugh wrote:
> 
>> Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2012 17:45:09 +0100
>> From: andy pugh 
>> Reply-To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)"
>> 
>> To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)" 
>> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] 5i25 detected, but not the 7i77 yet
>>
>> On 16 June 2012 17:23, Maximilian H  wrote:
>>
>>> [ 7094.230615] hm2/hm2_5i25.0: config.num_encoders=6, but only 2 are
>>> available, not loading driver
>>
>> My first guess would be that the 5i25 does not contain the correct
>> firmware for the 7i77 for some reason.
>>
>>
> 
> That would be my thought as well (only 2 encoders found when all 
> enabled suggests a 7I76x2 config to me)
> 
> 
> Other things to note
> 
> 1. There are no PWM gens used with 7I77s (or standard 7I76 configs)
> so invoking one will always cause a error
> 
> 2. I would use a config line like this as I have seen some trouble  (possibly
> fixed) with wildcard (missing specs) sserial configs
> 
> BOARD=5i25
> CONFIG="num_encoders=6 sserial_port_0=000xxx"
> 
> Peter Wallace
> Mesa Electronics
> 
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Re: [Emc-users] Brushless Servo Selection?

[Peter Blodow]

andy pugh schrieb:
>
> You are quite right, I don't know how I got that wrong.
> Except that hecto and centi are _not_ prefixes in the SI system.
>
>   
Yes they are. Hekto-, deka-, deci- and centi- (100, 10, 1/10, 1/100 
rsp.) are the only ones with the decimal exponents not being multiples 
of three, but just the same widely used whenever SI-units are used at 
all, probably the most frequently used ones of all of them.

Example: women's clothes are measured in cm, beer barrels and all beer 
production are measured in hectoliters. Want more?

Peter.

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[Emc-users] making a new component

[lloyd wilson]

I'm trying to compile a new component built as a modification of the 
homann modio package and can't get the makefile to cooperate; it keeps 
exiting with a complaint about not finding the comp program.

The compile environment is healthy; I just did a make of the linuxcnc 
package without complaint, so I assume that the make environment for 
modio hasn't kept up with the evolution of the overall system.

Has anyone encountered a similar issue & found the magic to get the 
compile system to cooperate?

thanks

ldw

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Re: [Emc-users] Brushless Servo Selection?

[andy pugh]

On 16 June 2012 21:25, Peter Blodow  wrote:

>> Except that hecto and centi are _not_ prefixes in the SI system.

> Yes they are. Hekto-, deka-, deci- and centi- (100, 10, 1/10, 1/100
> rsp.) are the only ones with the decimal exponents not being multiples
> of three,

Wikipedia seems to agree. I was certainly taught that it was improper
to use those prefixes though.

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Re: [Emc-users] making a new component

[Kirk Wallace]

On Sat, 2012-06-16 at 16:51 -0400, lloyd wilson wrote:
> I'm trying to compile a new component built as a modification of the 
> homann modio package and can't get the makefile to cooperate; it keeps 
> exiting with a complaint about not finding the comp program.
> 
> The compile environment is healthy; I just did a make of the linuxcnc 
> package without complaint, so I assume that the make environment for 
> modio hasn't kept up with the evolution of the overall system.
> 
> Has anyone encountered a similar issue & found the magic to get the 
> compile system to cooperate?
> 
> thanks
> 
> ldw

The first things that come to mind are, these files

homann_modio.c or other custom modio.c
Makefile
modbus.c
modbus.h
findbindir
find-libdir
find-modinc

all need to be in the same directory. You need to run make from the same
directory. The find series of files need to be executable. I recall
modbus.c and modbus.h are from a 2.? release of libmodbus which is now
up to rev. 3.0.3. and not compatible.

The sample set of files uses a component, conv_u32_bits, which converts
a u32 word to separate bit pins. The component needs to be built with
the comp program to get the sample to work.

I think the sample files where used with EMC 2.4 with Ubuntu 8.04 so
other versions might have issues. I may have the the ModIO sample
working on LinuxCNC 2.5 / Ubuntu 10.4 on one of my PC's, but I would
need to check to make sure.

-- 
Kirk Wallace
http://www.wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/
http://www.wallacecompany.com/E45/index.html
California, USA


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Re: [Emc-users] making a new component

[andy pugh]

On 16 June 2012 21:51, lloyd wilson  wrote:
> I'm trying to compile a new component built as a modification of the
> homann modio package and can't get the makefile to cooperate; it keeps
> exiting with a complaint about not finding the comp program.

Is the component written in C or in "comp"?

If the latter, then you don't compile it with make, you use
sudo comp --install compname.comp

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Re: [Emc-users] Brushless Servo Selection?

[Peter Blodow]

Viesturs,
don't confuse US and British units although they are both called 
imperial units (since when do Americans care about emperors?) - they are 
not necessarily the same as you come to details. Screws can be a lot 
different, for example. I have an old English combined circular wood saw 
and table router with thread holes in the table where US screws don't 
fit. British imperial gallons are different from US gallons. 
Furthermore, there are American metric screws that won't fit into 
European nuts of the same specifications because the radii of the 
thread's edges are different - it's all a whole mess as long as there 
are no efforts of unification. In this respect, we are living in an era 
not much different from the middle ages because every country wants to 
protect their products from other manufacturers instead of making joint 
efforts to compete only in quality and price of the optimal products.

British pipe threads are based on inch standard and compatible with all 
other countries' pipes and fittings, imperial or not.

Peter

Viesturs La-cis schrieb:
> 2012/6/16 andy pugh :
>   
>> You are quite right, I don't know how I got that wrong.
>> Except that hecto and centi are _not_ prefixes in the SI system.
>>
>> 
>
> Could be, I do not know for sure...
>
> BTW the metric vs imperial systems and UK being somewhere inbetween
> (litres from metric system and miles from imperial), I just remembered
> one interesting moment from a metrology class:
> In whole mainland Europe screw threads are metric, pipe threads are in
> imperial units. Which does not make much of a sense to me, why would
> they be separated, but then professor mentioned that pipe threads in
> UK are not imperial (I _think_ that screw threads are imperial in
> UK)...
> So I think that pipe thread in UK has to be metric, which makes me
> think that English people are doing this on purpose :))
>
>   


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Re: [Emc-users] Brushless Servo Selection?

[gene heskett]

On Saturday, June 16, 2012 06:40:41 PM Mike Bennett did opine:

> Gene
> 
> They solved the litres issue in the UK but making it illegal to sell
> most things in anything but metric units.  However we still measure
> distance in miles, so what units should we be working out our fuel
> economy?  Miles per litre?
> 
> At least we can still buy beer in pints ( 20oz ones of course :-) )
> 
> Mike
Chuckle.  So that explains Fosters, which comes in a huge can.  I used to 
like it, but that was before carrying a glucose meter in my hip pocket.
 
> 
> On 16 Jun 2012, at 17:41, gene heskett  wrote:
> > Peter, I was all on that hay ride for as long as it lasted.  But when
> > the gas stations that first put in pumps that measured liters made
> > note that their monthly usage pumped into the customers tanks dropped
> > to 10% because folks would just drive on down the street where they
> > could buy gas by the gallon, a unit they had used all their lives,
> > that effect brought the metric conversion of the US to a screeching
> > halt.  The rest of the system did go metric, but that today is
> > entirely the effect of all the manufacturing having been exported. 
> > Had they put dual displays in the gas pumps for a few years, so folks
> > could see at a glance what they were paying, they might have been
> > able to let the gallons displays gradually fail, but some numbed nuts
> > bean counter apparently wouldn't consider that idea.  Instead, we
> > took very careful aim and shot ourselves in both feet.
> > 
> > I suspect real estate was also to be a holdout, hell, nobody around
> > here has a clue what a hectar is, not even me.
> 
> 
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Cheers, Gene
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Re: [Emc-users] Brushless Servo Selection?

[gene heskett]

On Saturday, June 16, 2012 06:44:09 PM Dave did opine:

> >>I suspect real estate was also to be a holdout, hell, nobody around
> >>here
> 
> has a clue what a hectar is, not even me.<<
> 
> I think that Hectars are english also, as well as fathoms, etc.
> 
> You need to get your head wrapped around square meters.   (Good luck
> with that!)  I don't have a meter stick, but I have several yard
> sticks. So how can you estimate realestate in square meters if you
> don't even have a meter stick??
> 
> But I have two feet and my shoes are right at 13 inches.. so if I walk
> toe to toe .  ;-)  (I do that more than I care to admit.)
> 
And in my prime, my pace even for my short legs, often put me at 91 or 92 
paces from end zone to end zone of a football field.  But not recently, the 
hip joints out voted me.

> Dave
> 
> On 6/16/2012 12:41 PM, gene heskett wrote:
> > On Saturday, June 16, 2012 12:31:47 PM Peter Blodow did opine:
> >> Dave,
> >> funny thing is that European lathes in those days you were
> >> describing, many still working today,  were equipped with inch lead
> >> screws, so that in order to cut mm threads they have to use a 127
> >> teeth gear in the gear case to drive the lead screw. This way, our
> >> industry wanted to become compatible with the British and American
> >> manufacturers for export And although we are using metric units
> >> here in Germany since the late 1880ies, we still buy heating and
> >> water pipes, fittings etc. in inch measures. When I sometimes
> >> bring my timber to be cut to our local sawmill, I specify 3/4 inch
> >> or one inch boards to be made out of it, although they will be
> >> measured as 20 or 25 mm boards.
> >> By the way, how come that in this mailing list everybody speaks in
> >> inches - you were writing about the metric revolution?
> >> 
> >> Peter
> > 
> > Peter, I was all on that hay ride for as long as it lasted.  But when
> > the gas stations that first put in pumps that measured liters made
> > note that their monthly usage pumped into the customers tanks dropped
> > to 10% because folks would just drive on down the street where they
> > could buy gas by the gallon, a unit they had used all their lives,
> > that effect brought the metric conversion of the US to a screeching
> > halt.  The rest of the system did go metric, but that today is
> > entirely the effect of all the manufacturing having been exported. 
> > Had they put dual displays in the gas pumps for a few years, so folks
> > could see at a glance what they were paying, they might have been
> > able to let the gallons displays gradually fail, but some numbed nuts
> > bean counter apparently wouldn't consider that idea.  Instead, we
> > took very careful aim and shot ourselves in both feet.
> > 
> > I suspect real estate was also to be a holdout, hell, nobody around
> > here has a clue what a hectar is, not even me.
> > 
> >> Dave schrieb:
> >>> I was in engineering college from 76 to 81 and remember some
> >>> discussion about this.   Fortunately there was not too much to
> >>> discuss
> >>> as they had already decided that SI was the way to go and we had
> >>> recently selected "new" books.   At the same time the "metric"
> >>> revolution was in full swing and they were changing out all of their
> >>> machine tools in the school shop so they
> >>> would all be metric.   They were removing manual machines that were
> >>> setup in inches and replacing them with machines setup in
> >>> millimeters. Many of the machines were old so I was happy to see
> >>> them go and be replaced with new machines.
> >>> The school was very unique in that they encouraged students to use
> >>> the machines and the facilities after hours.  They had a shop
> >>> supervisor who was paid to stay late most weekday nights.  Even the
> >>> garage was available, so we could put our cars on the lifts to do
> >>> repairs and modifications.   When I wasn't chasing girls, I "lived"
> >>> at school.
> >>> 
> >>>   :-)
> >>> 
> >>> Dave
> >> 
> >> -
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> >> ___
> >> Emc-users mailing list
> >> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
> > 
> > Cheers, Gene
> 
> 
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> htt

Re: [Emc-users] Brushless Servo Selection?

[gene heskett]

On Saturday, June 16, 2012 06:46:59 PM andy pugh did opine:

> On 16 June 2012 18:48, Dave  wrote:
> >>>I suspect real estate was also to be a holdout, hell, nobody around
> >>>here
> > 
> > has a clue what a hectar is, not even me.<<
> > 
> > I think that Hectars are english also, as well as fathoms, etc.
> 
> No, the Hectare is metric.
> 
> An Are is an area 1km x 1km. A Hectare is 1/100 of that. So, a hectare
> is the area of a square 100m on a side.
> (1 million square metres to the Are, 10,000m^2 to the hectare.)

I hope you aren't having a snap quiz on this tomorrow.  Cause I likely 
won't remember it even that long. :(

Cheers, Gene
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Re: [Emc-users] making a new component

[lloyd wilson]

Thanks for the quick reply; all files are in the same directory, which 
I've tried placing in linuxcnc root and in the src directory; no change. 
The find* scripts exist & are executable; find-modinc is the script that 
goes thud, even if run from the command line. Since this is a C program, 
not a comp, is that step needed in the make process?

-ldw


On 06/16/2012 06:20 PM, Kirk Wallace wrote:
> On Sat, 2012-06-16 at 16:51 -0400, lloyd wilson wrote:
>> I'm trying to compile a new component built as a modification of the
>> homann modio package and can't get the makefile to cooperate; it keeps
>> exiting with a complaint about not finding the comp program.
>>
>> The compile environment is healthy; I just did a make of the linuxcnc
>> package without complaint, so I assume that the make environment for
>> modio hasn't kept up with the evolution of the overall system.
>>
>> Has anyone encountered a similar issue&  found the magic to get the
>> compile system to cooperate?
>>
>> thanks
>>
>> ldw
> The first things that come to mind are, these files
>
> homann_modio.c or other custom modio.c
> Makefile
> modbus.c
> modbus.h
> findbindir
> find-libdir
> find-modinc
>
> all need to be in the same directory. You need to run make from the same
> directory. The find series of files need to be executable. I recall
> modbus.c and modbus.h are from a 2.? release of libmodbus which is now
> up to rev. 3.0.3. and not compatible.
>
> The sample set of files uses a component, conv_u32_bits, which converts
> a u32 word to separate bit pins. The component needs to be built with
> the comp program to get the sample to work.
>
> I think the sample files where used with EMC 2.4 with Ubuntu 8.04 so
> other versions might have issues. I may have the the ModIO sample
> working on LinuxCNC 2.5 / Ubuntu 10.4 on one of my PC's, but I would
> need to check to make sure.
>

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[Emc-users] Workshop Servo tuning seminar

[Bruce Klawiter]

Hello Jon,

I was hoping to go to the CNC Workshop to attend and video tape your seminar on 
servo tuning.
Do you know if there is a way I can attend this without paying the $150.00, I 
am only going to see you and nothing else.
Just thought I'd ask as all I want to do is attend the servo tuning seminar and 
can't spend $150.00 on just that.

Regards,
Bruce
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Re: [Emc-users] making a new component

[Kirk Wallace]

On Sat, 2012-06-16 at 19:22 -0400, lloyd wilson wrote:
> Thanks for the quick reply; all files are in the same directory, which 
> I've tried placing in linuxcnc root and in the src directory; no change. 
> The find* scripts exist & are executable; find-modinc is the script that 
> goes thud, even if run from the command line. Since this is a C program, 
> not a comp, is that step needed in the make process?
> 
> -ldw

>From this link:
http://git.mah.priv.at/gitweb/vfs11-vfd.git/blob/master:/find-modinc 

it looks like it uses "which" to try to find "comp". if successful, it
sets the "bindir" shell variable, with other variables dependent on
"bindir".

"which comp" at the command line should be equivalent, or "whereis
comp", or just "comp" to see if comp is found.

I noticed here:
http://www.linuxcnc.org/index.php/english/component/kunena/?func=view&catid=10&id=18963
 

that LinuxCNC 2.5 now has comp in the linuxcnc-dev package rather than
the older emc2-dev. 
http://www.linuxcnc.org/docview/html/hal/comp.html 

It looks like you will need to get comp running first, so find-modinc
can find it.


-- 
Kirk Wallace
http://www.wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/
http://www.wallacecompany.com/E45/index.html
California, USA


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Re: [Emc-users] making a new component

[Kirk Wallace]

On Sat, 2012-06-16 at 23:24 +0100, andy pugh wrote:
> On 16 June 2012 21:51, lloyd wilson  wrote:
> > I'm trying to compile a new component built as a modification of the
> > homann modio package and can't get the makefile to cooperate; it keeps
> > exiting with a complaint about not finding the comp program.
> 
> Is the component written in C or in "comp"?
> 
> If the latter, then you don't compile it with make, you use
> sudo comp --install compname.comp
> 

I think the file Llyyd is trying to compile is a modified version of
homann_modio.c:
http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?ModIO 

Which is based on the Modbus VFD VFS11 component:
http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?VFD_Modbus 

When I made up homann_modio.c and assembled the support files I really
didn't understand Makefiles or formal Linux development (still don't). I
just monkeyed with it until it started working. I would have liked to
have had a professional quality page for this, but maybe someone smarter
than me might clean this up.

-- 
Kirk Wallace
http://www.wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/
http://www.wallacecompany.com/E45/index.html
California, USA


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Re: [Emc-users] making a new component

[lloyd wilson]

Curious - I still have a previous source environment (emc2-dev), as well 
as a new environment
(linuxcnc-dev). Running 'which comp' from new environment gives null 
response:

lloyd@lloyd-acer:~/linuxcnc-dev$ which comp
lloyd@lloyd-acer:~/linuxcnc-dev$

  running from old environment finds comp - in the new environment :

  lloyd@lloyd-acer:~/emc2-dev$ which comp
  /home/lloyd/linuxcnc-dev/bin/comp

seems there is some environment variable out of alignment - and my *nix 
experience is at least a decade out of date


On 06/16/2012 10:03 PM, Kirk Wallace wrote:
> On Sat, 2012-06-16 at 19:22 -0400, lloyd wilson wrote:
>> Thanks for the quick reply; all files are in the same directory, which
>> I've tried placing in linuxcnc root and in the src directory; no change.
>> The find* scripts exist&  are executable; find-modinc is the script that
>> goes thud, even if run from the command line. Since this is a C program,
>> not a comp, is that step needed in the make process?
>>
>> -ldw
> > From this link:
> http://git.mah.priv.at/gitweb/vfs11-vfd.git/blob/master:/find-modinc
>
> it looks like it uses "which" to try to find "comp". if successful, it
> sets the "bindir" shell variable, with other variables dependent on
> "bindir".
>
> "which comp" at the command line should be equivalent, or "whereis
> comp", or just "comp" to see if comp is found.
>
> I noticed here:
> http://www.linuxcnc.org/index.php/english/component/kunena/?func=view&catid=10&id=18963
>
> that LinuxCNC 2.5 now has comp in the linuxcnc-dev package rather than
> the older emc2-dev.
> http://www.linuxcnc.org/docview/html/hal/comp.html
>
> It looks like you will need to get comp running first, so find-modinc
> can find it.
>
>

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Re: [Emc-users] Workshop Servo tuning seminar

[Jon Elson]

Bruce Klawiter wrote:
> Hello Jon,
>
> I was hoping to go to the CNC Workshop to attend and video tape your seminar 
> on servo tuning.
> Do you know if there is a way I can attend this without paying the $150.00, I 
> am only going to see you and nothing else.
> Just thought I'd ask as all I want to do is attend the servo tuning seminar 
> and can't spend $150.00 on just that.
>   
I can't do anything, but you need to email or call George Bulliss at 
Village Press.  There is a
Saturday-only admission that is cheaper.

Hope my talk is worth all that trouble.

Jon

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Re: [Emc-users] quick boot

[Przemek Klosowski]

On Thu, Jun 14, 2012 at 8:56 PM, Stuart Stevenson  wrote:

> I don't understand why the controller would be robust enough for a machine
> tool and not for a car.

One reason might be the temperature ranges. A machine shop should stay
between 5°C and 30°C
while automotive temperature range is from -40°C to +125°C.

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