Re: [Emc-users] USB - Serial question

[ken.strauss]

UDCON = UDCON & 0xFE;
The above compiles without error for an Arduino Leonardo. I'll try it in the
shop tomorrow.
Thanks!


-Original Message-
From: John Dammeyer  
Sent: December 4, 2020 7:02 PM
To: 'Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)' 
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] USB - Serial question

I don't have an Arduino here that has the ATmega16U4 so I can't try this.
Perhaps someone else can?

Page 281 of the linked data sheet shows UDCON bit 0 holds the Detach Bit.
Googling access to Arduino registers implies that you can just use the data
sheet name to get to the register.

So theoretically this statement in the init() function should disable the
USB.  Ie. It will disappear or won't show up.  
UDCON = UDCON & 0xFE;

Now in the main line monitor one of the port pins that you have connected to
a button and set up as an input.  

If the USB device doesn't show up then you know the DETACH bit has worked.  

When the mainline loop blinking the LED sees the button press execute this:
UDCON = UDCON | 0x01;

Now check the PC to see if the USB port shows up.

If that works then you have an easy way to logically remove the USB
connection.  Initialize all hardware.  Then logically plug the USB cable
back in.

John Dammeyer

> -Original Message-
> From: John Dammeyer [mailto:jo...@autoartisans.com]
> Sent: December-04-20 10:22 AM
> To: 'Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)'
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] USB - Serial question
> 
> Still requires an output. Whether it's DTR, Power, a Relay or the #RESET
signal.
> 
> Page 272 and 273 talks about the DETACH bit.
> https://ww1.microchip.com/downloads/en/DeviceDoc/Atmel-7766-8-bit-AVR-
> ATmega16U4-32U4_Datasheet.pdf
> 
> It's worth a try in that blink application working with that bit to see if
Path Pilot no longer sees the serial port once the detach is set.
> And then re-enumerated if cleared 120 seconds later.
> 
> John Dammeyer
> 
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Martin Dobbins [mailto:tu...@hotmail.com]
> > Sent: December-04-20 10:02 AM
> > To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> > Subject: Re: [Emc-users] USB - Serial question
> >
> > Hi Ken,
> >
> > PJRC's version of Arduino is somewhat different, I wonder if DTR is 
> > what you need?  If you can read the serial.dtr as shown here, then I'm
pretty sure you can hold DTR low until you are ready to send/receive data:
> >
> > https://www.pjrc.com/teensy/td_serial.html
> >
> > Martin
> >
> > 
> >
> >
> > Your suggestion sounded great so I did a few tests. I loaded a PCJR 
> > Teensy LC (ARM Cortex-M0+) and a genuine Arduinio Leonardo 
> > (ATmega32u4) with the standard BLINK program --  
> >
> > > Emc-users mailing list
> > > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ___
> > > Emc-users mailing list
> > > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> > -users mailing list
> > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
> >
> >
> >
> > ___
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> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
> >
> > ___
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> 
> 
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Re: [Emc-users] USB - Serial question

[John Dammeyer]

I don't have an Arduino here that has the ATmega16U4 so I can't try this.  
Perhaps someone else can?

Page 281 of the linked data sheet shows UDCON bit 0 holds the Detach Bit.  
Googling access to Arduino registers implies that you can just use the data 
sheet name to get to the register.

So theoretically this statement in the init() function should disable the USB.  
Ie. It will disappear or won't show up.  
UDCON = UDCON & 0xFE;

Now in the main line monitor one of the port pins that you have connected to a 
button and set up as an input.  

If the USB device doesn't show up then you know the DETACH bit has worked.  

When the mainline loop blinking the LED sees the button press execute this:
UDCON = UDCON | 0x01;

Now check the PC to see if the USB port shows up.

If that works then you have an easy way to logically remove the USB connection. 
 Initialize all hardware.  Then logically plug the USB cable back in.

John Dammeyer

> -Original Message-
> From: John Dammeyer [mailto:jo...@autoartisans.com]
> Sent: December-04-20 10:22 AM
> To: 'Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)'
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] USB - Serial question
> 
> Still requires an output. Whether it's DTR, Power, a Relay or the #RESET 
> signal.
> 
> Page 272 and 273 talks about the DETACH bit.
> https://ww1.microchip.com/downloads/en/DeviceDoc/Atmel-7766-8-bit-AVR-ATmega16U4-32U4_Datasheet.pdf
> 
> It's worth a try in that blink application working with that bit to see if 
> Path Pilot no longer sees the serial port once the detach is set.
> And then re-enumerated if cleared 120 seconds later.
> 
> John Dammeyer
> 
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Martin Dobbins [mailto:tu...@hotmail.com]
> > Sent: December-04-20 10:02 AM
> > To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> > Subject: Re: [Emc-users] USB - Serial question
> >
> > Hi Ken,
> >
> > PJRC's version of Arduino is somewhat different, I wonder if DTR is what 
> > you need?  If you can read the serial.dtr as shown here, then
> > I'm pretty sure you can hold DTR low until you are ready to send/receive 
> > data:
> >
> > https://www.pjrc.com/teensy/td_serial.html
> >
> > Martin
> >
> > 
> >
> >
> > Your suggestion sounded great so I did a few tests. I loaded a PCJR Teensy
> > LC (ARM Cortex-M0+) and a genuine Arduinio Leonardo (ATmega32u4) with the
> > standard BLINK program --
> >  
> >
> > > Emc-users mailing list
> > > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ___
> > > Emc-users mailing list
> > > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> > -users mailing list
> > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
> >
> >
> >
> > ___
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> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
> >
> > ___
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> 
> 
> 
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Re: [Emc-users] USB - Serial question

[Frank Tkalcevic]

Atmel Studio (the free development IDE for programming Atmel/PIC AVRs
(windows only)) will import an Arduino project.  This includes all the
source for all the libraries that are used.  This makes it easier to
customise libraries.  Programming without an ISP tool is a bit tricky - I
think you need to do that from the command line.


-Original Message-
From: ken.stra...@gmail.com [mailto:ken.stra...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Saturday, 5 December 2020 2:45 AM
To: 'Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)'
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] USB - Serial question

Your suggestion sounded great so I did a few tests. I loaded a PCJR Teensy
LC (ARM Cortex-M0+) and a genuine Arduinio Leonardo (ATmega32u4) with the
standard BLINK program -- the Arduino equivalent of the Linux HELLOWORLD.
For those unfamiliar with the Arduino world both of these boards have native
USB support rather than using a FT232 or other separate chip. The BLINK
program requires no extra hardware but uses an Arduino pin to blink the
onboard LED. The program is only a few lines and there is no explicit code
to enable serial communication or do anything USB related. Hidden from the
user, several thousand bytes of system routines to control interrupts,
timers, USB, etc. are loaded together with the 5 line user program.

Results:
As soon as the Teensy LC is plugged in, lsusb shows a new USB device with
VID/PID of 16c0/04d3. PathPilot shows a status message that a USB device has
been connected.

As soon as the Arduino Leonardo is plugged in, lsusb shows a new USB device
with VID/PID of 2341-8036.  PathPilot shows a status message that a USB
device has been connected.

Conclusion:
The standard Arduino ecosystem does not easily allow USB enumeration to be
delayed. Everything is open source software so I'm sure that one can
disable/enable the on-chip USB but doing so is beyond my expertise. 

-Original Message-
From: Chris Albertson  
Sent: December 3, 2020 12:49 PM
To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) 
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] USB - Serial question

On Thu, Dec 3, 2020 at 5:13 AM  wrote:

> Even if the FT232 RXD/TXD/DSR/CTS/etc pins are left floating it is 
> recognized by Linux as soon as it is plugged in. For example, lsusb 
> lists it.
>

I'm sorry I am still not clear.The FT232 has two ports.   One has RS232
lines and the other has USB data lines. Letting the RS232 port float would
do nothing, just like you are seeing.

When you plug in the FT232 it starts a conversation with the PC even if
there is nothing connected to the serial port and the FT232 chip is
detected.

so simple solutions *DO NOT USE AN FT232 CHIP*.   The reason is that this
chip does not do what you want.  Simply use the USB pins that are built into
the MCU

Assuming you do this, now you have control over when and if the USB device
talks to the Linux computer.  Simply wait until you are ready.

The FT232 chip was designed to do one simple job and that is allit can do.
But it is not the job you need done,  That said, holding the reset pin low
might work but you better do that in hardware with a pull-down o there is
no race condition between the MCU and FT232.   But again why hassle with
the FT232 chip?  Every reasonable MCU has USB built-in.



> -Original Message-
> From: Chris Albertson 
> Sent: December 3, 2020 12:52 AM
> To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) 
> 
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] USB - Serial question
>
> Does it work that way?
>
> On Wed, Dec 2, 2020 at 8:12 PM  wrote:
>
> > That would be great but if the USB-serial has power then it is found 
> > in the USB enumeration even if the MCU is busy
>
>
> Really?  How is it enumerated without the need for the MCU to send data?
>  Getting power is not enough.  The Linux side needs to see an "ACK" 
> from the setup.
>
>
>
> > and ignoring the serial data stream.
> >
>
> There is no serial data stream, not until after the USB device sends "ACK"
> and is enumerated as a serial device.   That has not yet happened
>
> That is why I was considering holding a FT232 in RESET
>
>
> If you use an FT232 then maybe it is simply pre-programmed and some hack
is
> required because you can't access the code inside the chip.   I think this
> is an argument for not using FT232  Just connect the USB pins fom the MCU
> directly. and then you have control over what happens.   I would not
> suggest a hardware solution when what needs to be done is in the 
> standard protocall.
>
> If this USB device is based on an MCU that is supported by Arduino IDE
then
> there is example code in the IDE.  See where XXX.begin is called.   Where
> XXX is "mouse" or "keyboard"   What you do is not call the .begin method
> until you want Linux to notice the device.XXX is a wrapper of subclass
> aroud something like "pluggableUSB".You can experiment with an Arduino
> and see that it can have any delay t like between being plugged in and 
> being noticed as a new device.
>
> until everything is
> > ready to process commands. The relay in the USB 

Re: [Emc-users] USB - Serial question

[Chris Albertson]

There are dozens of solutions.  maybe the Udev rule tigers a Python scrip
that waits for an "I'm ready" signal before it makes the device?   Or the
rules looks for a "myMill" device ID

I suggest reading USB documentation and standards and also how Udev works
on Linux.
This is not bad
https://linuxconfig.org/tutorial-on-how-to-write-basic-udev-rules-in-linux
Wikipedia is not a bad intro to USB either
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USB_(Communications)


On Fri, Dec 4, 2020 at 11:47 AM  wrote:

> You are correct. I have a udev rule to connect to my particular VID/PID.
> The
> problem is trying to talk before I'm really ready.
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Chris Albertson 
> Sent: December 4, 2020 1:41 PM
> To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) 
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] USB - Serial question
>
> So PP will try and "talk" to every serial port on your computer?   I doubt
> it is that dumb.   I bet there is a Udev rule that triggers something and
> you can edit the rules to look for the exact type of device or manufacturer
> ID.
>
> On Fri, Dec 4, 2020 at 10:09 AM  wrote:
>
> > Thanks for I'm unsure how that helps. My widget interfaces to
> > LinuxCNC/PathPilot as a serial device rather than as a mouse or keyboard.
> > What should my entry in udev/rules.d look like?
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Chris Albertson 
> > Sent: December 4, 2020 12:36 PM
> > To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> > 
> > Subject: Re: [Emc-users] USB - Serial question
> >
> > With Arduino, the test is not to simply plug in the device.  Look at
> > File->Examples->USB and run the sketch.
> >
> > While the Arduino itself shows as a serial device, the example shows
> > you how to enumerate some other device, like a mouse, keyboard, or
> > mass
> > storage.   This would be done only AFTER the .begin() is called.
> >
> > The idea is that you enumerate a "MyCNCmill" device or whatever else you
> > want to call it.   Verify it works by placing a 30 second delay in the
> > example code.
> >
> > ___
> > Emc-users mailing list
> > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
> >
> >
> >
> > ___
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> >
>
>
> --
>
> Chris Albertson
> Redondo Beach, California
>
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Re: [Emc-users] USB - Serial question

[ken.strauss]

You are correct. I have a udev rule to connect to my particular VID/PID. The
problem is trying to talk before I'm really ready.

-Original Message-
From: Chris Albertson  
Sent: December 4, 2020 1:41 PM
To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) 
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] USB - Serial question

So PP will try and "talk" to every serial port on your computer?   I doubt
it is that dumb.   I bet there is a Udev rule that triggers something and
you can edit the rules to look for the exact type of device or manufacturer
ID.

On Fri, Dec 4, 2020 at 10:09 AM  wrote:

> Thanks for I'm unsure how that helps. My widget interfaces to 
> LinuxCNC/PathPilot as a serial device rather than as a mouse or keyboard.
> What should my entry in udev/rules.d look like?
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Chris Albertson 
> Sent: December 4, 2020 12:36 PM
> To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) 
> 
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] USB - Serial question
>
> With Arduino, the test is not to simply plug in the device.  Look at
> File->Examples->USB and run the sketch.
>
> While the Arduino itself shows as a serial device, the example shows 
> you how to enumerate some other device, like a mouse, keyboard, or 
> mass
> storage.   This would be done only AFTER the .begin() is called.
>
> The idea is that you enumerate a "MyCNCmill" device or whatever else you
> want to call it.   Verify it works by placing a 30 second delay in the
> example code.
>
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Re: [Emc-users] USB - Serial question

[Chris Albertson]

So PP will try and "talk" to every serial port on your computer?   I doubt
it is that dumb.   I bet there is a Udev rule that triggers something and
you can edit the rules to look for the exact type of device or manufacturer
ID.

On Fri, Dec 4, 2020 at 10:09 AM  wrote:

> Thanks for I'm unsure how that helps. My widget interfaces to
> LinuxCNC/PathPilot as a serial device rather than as a mouse or keyboard.
> What should my entry in udev/rules.d look like?
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Chris Albertson 
> Sent: December 4, 2020 12:36 PM
> To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) 
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] USB - Serial question
>
> With Arduino, the test is not to simply plug in the device.  Look at
> File->Examples->USB and run the sketch.
>
> While the Arduino itself shows as a serial device, the example shows you
> how
> to enumerate some other device, like a mouse, keyboard, or mass
> storage.   This would be done only AFTER the .begin() is called.
>
> The idea is that you enumerate a "MyCNCmill" device or whatever else you
> want to call it.   Verify it works by placing a 30 second delay in the
> example code.
>
> ___
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>
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Re: [Emc-users] USB - Serial question

[Martin Dobbins]

I don't think so when reading this from the link below, serial.dtr is not a 
standard Arduino ide function:

"On a standard Arduino, the DTR and RTS signals are present on pins of the FTDI 
chip, but they are not connected to anything. You can solder wires between I/O 
pins and the FTDI chip if you need these signals."

PJRC also has datasheets each of the chips he uses and for the LC additionally 
a manual with "all the useful programming info"

https://www.pjrc.com/teensy/datasheets.html






Isn't DTR a signal controlled by the host (LinuxCNC) rather than the micro?

-Original Message-
From: Martin Dobbins 
Sent: December 4, 2020 1:02 PM
To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) 
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] USB - Serial question

Hi Ken,

PJRC's version of Arduino is somewhat different, I wonder if DTR is what you
need?  If you can read the serial.dtr as shown here, then I'm pretty sure
you can hold DTR low until you are ready to send/receive data:

https://www.pjrc.com/teensy/td_serial.html

Martin




Your suggestion sounded great so I did a few tests. I loaded a PCJR Teensy
LC (ARM Cortex-M0+) and a genuine Arduinio Leonardo (ATmega32u4) with the
standard BLINK program --  

> Emc-users mailing list
> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>
>
>
> ___
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Re: [Emc-users] USB - Serial question

[John Dammeyer]

Still requires an output. Whether it's DTR, Power, a Relay or the #RESET signal.

Page 272 and 273 talks about the DETACH bit.  
https://ww1.microchip.com/downloads/en/DeviceDoc/Atmel-7766-8-bit-AVR-ATmega16U4-32U4_Datasheet.pdf

It's worth a try in that blink application working with that bit to see if Path 
Pilot no longer sees the serial port once the detach is set.  And then 
re-enumerated if cleared 120 seconds later.

John Dammeyer

> -Original Message-
> From: Martin Dobbins [mailto:tu...@hotmail.com]
> Sent: December-04-20 10:02 AM
> To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] USB - Serial question
> 
> Hi Ken,
> 
> PJRC's version of Arduino is somewhat different, I wonder if DTR is what you 
> need?  If you can read the serial.dtr as shown here, then
> I'm pretty sure you can hold DTR low until you are ready to send/receive data:
> 
> https://www.pjrc.com/teensy/td_serial.html
> 
> Martin
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your suggestion sounded great so I did a few tests. I loaded a PCJR Teensy
> LC (ARM Cortex-M0+) and a genuine Arduinio Leonardo (ATmega32u4) with the
> standard BLINK program --
>  
> 
> > Emc-users mailing list
> > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
> >
> >
> >
> > ___
> > Emc-users mailing list
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> >
> 
> 
> --
> 
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> 
> 
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Re: [Emc-users] USB - Serial question

[ken.strauss]

Isn't DTR a signal controlled by the host (LinuxCNC) rather than the micro? 

-Original Message-
From: Martin Dobbins  
Sent: December 4, 2020 1:02 PM
To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) 
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] USB - Serial question

Hi Ken,

PJRC's version of Arduino is somewhat different, I wonder if DTR is what you
need?  If you can read the serial.dtr as shown here, then I'm pretty sure
you can hold DTR low until you are ready to send/receive data:

https://www.pjrc.com/teensy/td_serial.html

Martin




Your suggestion sounded great so I did a few tests. I loaded a PCJR Teensy
LC (ARM Cortex-M0+) and a genuine Arduinio Leonardo (ATmega32u4) with the
standard BLINK program --  

> Emc-users mailing list
> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>
>
>
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Re: [Emc-users] USB - Serial question

[ken.strauss]

Thanks for I'm unsure how that helps. My widget interfaces to
LinuxCNC/PathPilot as a serial device rather than as a mouse or keyboard.
What should my entry in udev/rules.d look like?

-Original Message-
From: Chris Albertson  
Sent: December 4, 2020 12:36 PM
To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) 
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] USB - Serial question

With Arduino, the test is not to simply plug in the device.  Look at
File->Examples->USB and run the sketch.

While the Arduino itself shows as a serial device, the example shows you how
to enumerate some other device, like a mouse, keyboard, or mass
storage.   This would be done only AFTER the .begin() is called.

The idea is that you enumerate a "MyCNCmill" device or whatever else you
want to call it.   Verify it works by placing a 30 second delay in the
example code.

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Re: [Emc-users] USB - Serial question

[Martin Dobbins]

Hi Ken,

PJRC's version of Arduino is somewhat different, I wonder if DTR is what you 
need?  If you can read the serial.dtr as shown here, then I'm pretty sure you 
can hold DTR low until you are ready to send/receive data:

https://www.pjrc.com/teensy/td_serial.html

Martin




Your suggestion sounded great so I did a few tests. I loaded a PCJR Teensy
LC (ARM Cortex-M0+) and a genuine Arduinio Leonardo (ATmega32u4) with the
standard BLINK program --
 

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Re: [Emc-users] USB - Serial question

[Chris Albertson]

With Arduino, the test is not to simply plug in the device.  Look at
File->Examples->USB and run the sketch.

While the Arduino itself shows as a serial device, the example shows you
how to enumerate some other device, like a mouse, keyboard, or mass
storage.   This would be done only AFTER the .begin() is called.

The idea is that you enumerate a "MyCNCmill" device or whatever else you
want to call it.   Verify it works by placing a 30 second delay in the
example code.

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Re: [Emc-users] USB - Serial question

[ken.strauss]

John wrote: "But just as easily it can run for 7.654 to 8.765 hours and then 
suddenly hang with no apparent reason and no easy way to debug." 
There are lots of reasons for such random failures but in my experience they 
are often the result of over allocating RAM for data and thus leaving too 
little stack space.

There is definitely a ton of stuff happening in the background and it is all 
orchestrated by thousands of lines of mostly uncommented and buggy C++ code. It 
was created by independent developers who, lacking clear documentation, are apt 
to introduce race conditions, out of bounds parameters and other gotchas. The 
situation is worsened due to premiums on execution speed and limiting RAM 
usage. This mess is never seen by the casual user and I dare not tread there to 
save a $1 chip!

-Original Message-
From: John Dammeyer  
Sent: December 4, 2020 11:57 AM
To: 'Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)' 
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] USB - Serial question

Glad you did the tests to figure that out.  There is a ton of stuff going on 
under the covers in the Arduino world which is why it's used by amateurs to do 
thousands of different projects.   But just as easily it can run for 7.654 to 
8.765 hours and then suddenly hang with no apparent reason and no easy way to 
debug.  

I have an ESP8266 Arduino compatible WiFi module that runs LED light shows like 
that.  All works fine while you have a PC plugged into the USB connection.  And 
then suddenly the show  vanishes.  And a while later restarts from scratch.

But it sounds like you are back to your original premise.  It's unlikely you 
could shut off the internal USB since it likely is identified by the PC before 
your program is ever run.  

What you could try in the init() function is to disable the internal USB and 
then sit in the blink while loop.  See if then it's enumerated but lost so Path 
Pilot won't see it anymore until you do.  Count 1000 blinks and then enable it 
again.  Of course, you have to know what other things to set up since disabling 
it may also require other registers to be initialized again.

Alternatively use an extra output on the Arduino module and either hold an 
FT232 in reset, pull that Data Line low, control power to the FT232H or control 
a relay to break the connection.  

I just built a module this week for a project that requires control over power. 
 Photo attached.  The cover is a tight fit and the long edges hold the PC board 
and connector firmly to the bottom.  The blink LED status output in the module 
is used to drive a transistor which drives the relay.  It's no longer used for 
blinky operations.

John Dammeyer

> -Original Message-
> From: ken.stra...@gmail.com [mailto:ken.stra...@gmail.com]
> Sent: December-04-20 7:43 AM
> To: 'Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)'
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] USB - Serial question
> 
> Your suggestion sounded great so I did a few tests. I loaded a PCJR 
> Teensy LC (ARM Cortex-M0+) and a genuine Arduinio Leonardo 
> (ATmega32u4) with the standard BLINK program -- the Arduino equivalent of the 
> Linux HELLOWORLD.
> For those unfamiliar with the Arduino world both of these boards have 
> native USB support rather than using a FT232 or other separate chip. 
> The BLINK program requires no extra hardware but uses an Arduino pin 
> to blink the onboard LED. The program is only a few lines and there is 
> no explicit code to enable serial communication or do anything USB 
> related. Hidden from the user, several thousand bytes of system 
> routines to control interrupts, timers, USB, etc. are loaded together with 
> the 5 line user program.
> 
> Results:
> As soon as the Teensy LC is plugged in, lsusb shows a new USB device 
> with VID/PID of 16c0/04d3. PathPilot shows a status message that a USB 
> device has been connected.
> 
> As soon as the Arduino Leonardo is plugged in, lsusb shows a new USB 
> device with VID/PID of 2341-8036.  PathPilot shows a status message 
> that a USB device has been connected.
> 
> Conclusion:
> The standard Arduino ecosystem does not easily allow USB enumeration 
> to be delayed. Everything is open source software so I'm sure that one 
> can disable/enable the on-chip USB but doing so is beyond my expertise.
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Chris Albertson 
> Sent: December 3, 2020 12:58 PM
> To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) 
> 
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] USB - Serial question
> 
> The problem is with the USB device.  If a FT232 chip is used it seems 
> to be doing the enumeration as soon as it is plugged in.
> The simple solution is to avoid using the FT232 and use something else 
> where you have control over when and if enumeration occurs.
> 
> The good news is that this "something else is free and you already 
> have it
> -- the USB pins in the microcontroller.
> 
> In the Arduino IDE what start the enumeration is the ".begin()" method that
> is called on the USB connection object.   Look in the IDE
> 

Re: [Emc-users] new motor/vfd has arrived.

[andy pugh]

On Fri, 4 Dec 2020 at 15:41, Eric Keller  wrote:

> https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B082KKG55T?pf_rd_r=065XPWF7ZTHWN85F18N6_rd_p=9d9090dd-8b99-4ac3-b4a9-90a1db2ef53b
> I'm curious what the rationale is for alligator clips.

They are a fairly "universal" connector, I suppose. You can clip on to
a header pin, clip to a short length of wire in a cage clamp etc.

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912


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Re: [Emc-users] USB - Serial question

[ken.strauss]

Your suggestion sounded great so I did a few tests. I loaded a PCJR Teensy
LC (ARM Cortex-M0+) and a genuine Arduinio Leonardo (ATmega32u4) with the
standard BLINK program -- the Arduino equivalent of the Linux HELLOWORLD.
For those unfamiliar with the Arduino world both of these boards have native
USB support rather than using a FT232 or other separate chip. The BLINK
program requires no extra hardware but uses an Arduino pin to blink the
onboard LED. The program is only a few lines and there is no explicit code
to enable serial communication or do anything USB related. Hidden from the
user, several thousand bytes of system routines to control interrupts,
timers, USB, etc. are loaded together with the 5 line user program.

Results:
As soon as the Teensy LC is plugged in, lsusb shows a new USB device with
VID/PID of 16c0/04d3. PathPilot shows a status message that a USB device has
been connected.

As soon as the Arduino Leonardo is plugged in, lsusb shows a new USB device
with VID/PID of 2341-8036.  PathPilot shows a status message that a USB
device has been connected.

Conclusion:
The standard Arduino ecosystem does not easily allow USB enumeration to be
delayed. Everything is open source software so I'm sure that one can
disable/enable the on-chip USB but doing so is beyond my expertise. 

-Original Message-
From: Chris Albertson  
Sent: December 3, 2020 12:49 PM
To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) 
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] USB - Serial question

On Thu, Dec 3, 2020 at 5:13 AM  wrote:

> Even if the FT232 RXD/TXD/DSR/CTS/etc pins are left floating it is 
> recognized by Linux as soon as it is plugged in. For example, lsusb 
> lists it.
>

I'm sorry I am still not clear.The FT232 has two ports.   One has RS232
lines and the other has USB data lines. Letting the RS232 port float would
do nothing, just like you are seeing.

When you plug in the FT232 it starts a conversation with the PC even if
there is nothing connected to the serial port and the FT232 chip is
detected.

so simple solutions *DO NOT USE AN FT232 CHIP*.   The reason is that this
chip does not do what you want.  Simply use the USB pins that are built into
the MCU

Assuming you do this, now you have control over when and if the USB device
talks to the Linux computer.  Simply wait until you are ready.

The FT232 chip was designed to do one simple job and that is allit can do.
But it is not the job you need done,  That said, holding the reset pin low
might work but you better do that in hardware with a pull-down o there is
no race condition between the MCU and FT232.   But again why hassle with
the FT232 chip?  Every reasonable MCU has USB built-in.



> -Original Message-
> From: Chris Albertson 
> Sent: December 3, 2020 12:52 AM
> To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) 
> 
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] USB - Serial question
>
> Does it work that way?
>
> On Wed, Dec 2, 2020 at 8:12 PM  wrote:
>
> > That would be great but if the USB-serial has power then it is found 
> > in the USB enumeration even if the MCU is busy
>
>
> Really?  How is it enumerated without the need for the MCU to send data?
>  Getting power is not enough.  The Linux side needs to see an "ACK" 
> from the setup.
>
>
>
> > and ignoring the serial data stream.
> >
>
> There is no serial data stream, not until after the USB device sends "ACK"
> and is enumerated as a serial device.   That has not yet happened
>
> That is why I was considering holding a FT232 in RESET
>
>
> If you use an FT232 then maybe it is simply pre-programmed and some hack
is
> required because you can't access the code inside the chip.   I think this
> is an argument for not using FT232  Just connect the USB pins fom the MCU
> directly. and then you have control over what happens.   I would not
> suggest a hardware solution when what needs to be done is in the 
> standard protocall.
>
> If this USB device is based on an MCU that is supported by Arduino IDE
then
> there is example code in the IDE.  See where XXX.begin is called.   Where
> XXX is "mouse" or "keyboard"   What you do is not call the .begin method
> until you want Linux to notice the device.XXX is a wrapper of subclass
> aroud something like "pluggableUSB".You can experiment with an Arduino
> and see that it can have any delay t like between being plugged in and 
> being noticed as a new device.
>
> until everything is
> > ready to process commands. The relay in the USB cable suggested by 
> > John would do what you suggest.
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Chris Albertson 
> > Sent: December 2, 2020 10:33 PM
> > To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) 
> > 
> > Subject: Re: [Emc-users] USB - Serial question
> >
> > So PP does the scan of USB devices and does not see your device. It 
> > will not see your device because it is still initializing and is 
> > ignoring the "set up"
> > packets.   Finally, your device responds and then PP responds to the
> > connection.   The trick is to NOT connect until 

Re: [Emc-users] USB - Serial question

[ken.strauss]

Your suggestion sounded great so I did a few tests. I loaded a PCJR Teensy
LC (ARM Cortex-M0+) and a genuine Arduinio Leonardo (ATmega32u4) with the
standard BLINK program -- the Arduino equivalent of the Linux HELLOWORLD.
For those unfamiliar with the Arduino world both of these boards have native
USB support rather than using a FT232 or other separate chip. The BLINK
program requires no extra hardware but uses an Arduino pin to blink the
onboard LED. The program is only a few lines and there is no explicit code
to enable serial communication or do anything USB related. Hidden from the
user, several thousand bytes of system routines to control interrupts,
timers, USB, etc. are loaded together with the 5 line user program.

Results:
As soon as the Teensy LC is plugged in, lsusb shows a new USB device with
VID/PID of 16c0/04d3. PathPilot shows a status message that a USB device has
been connected.

As soon as the Arduino Leonardo is plugged in, lsusb shows a new USB device
with VID/PID of 2341-8036.  PathPilot shows a status message that a USB
device has been connected.

Conclusion:
The standard Arduino ecosystem does not easily allow USB enumeration to be
delayed. Everything is open source software so I'm sure that one can
disable/enable the on-chip USB but doing so is beyond my expertise. 

-Original Message-
From: Chris Albertson  
Sent: December 3, 2020 12:58 PM
To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) 
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] USB - Serial question

The problem is with the USB device.  If a FT232 chip is used it seems to be
doing the enumeration as soon as it is plugged in.
The simple solution is to avoid using the FT232 and use something else where
you have control over when and if enumeration occurs.

The good news is that this "something else is free and you already have it
-- the USB pins in the microcontroller.

In the Arduino IDE what start the enumeration is the ".begin()" method that
is called on the USB connection object.   Look in the IDE
File->Examples->USB to see an example
The example that is built into the IDE uses a keyboard or mouse object but
these are subclasses of something called (from my poor memory)
"PluggableUSB" and the source code for PluggableUSB explains hove to make
you own class that maybe you would call "MyCNC".Then when you call
MyCNC.begin() the enumeration occurs and never before the call to
MyCNC.begin()

You can experiment with the examples provided.


On Thu, Dec 3, 2020 at 5:23 AM  wrote:

> Les Newell wrote:
> Another option is to regularly poll the serial buffer using
> Serial.available() while you are initializing. If you don't spend too 
> much time in each loop() cycle, serialEvent() does most of the work for
you.
>
> Polling with Serial.available is my current approach for normal 
> processing
> -- moving steppers, actuating pneumatics, controlling pump, etc -- and 
> I'll probably extend it to handling initialization.
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Les Newell 
> Sent: December 3, 2020 7:28 AM
> To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] USB - Serial question
>
> I'm a software guy so here are some possible software solutions.
> Why not wait for PathPilot to send it's setup query then do your 
> initialization? You still have plenty of time to do your 
> initialization while the machine is being homed etc.
> Another option is to regularly poll the serial buffer using
> Serial.available() while you are initializing. If you don't spend too 
> much time in each loop() cycle, serialEvent() does most of the work for
you.
> The hardest option would be to write your own serial interrupt routine 
> and do all of your serial in the ISR. You need to be comfortable with 
> talking directly to the ATMega hardware registers to do this.
>
> Les
>
>
>
> On 03/12/2020 00:53, ken.stra...@gmail.com wrote:
> > Chris wrote:  I think USB takes care of this for you.  "set up"
> > packets are sent by the host (the PC) and never by the device 
> > (mouse, disk, or whatever) The device never starts doing anything 
> > until after it
> hears from the host.
> >
> > You've precisely described my problem!  I need to do somewhat time 
> > consuming initialization -- home some steppers, actuate a pneumatic 
> > cylinder, prime a pump, verify coolant pressure, etc. Soon after 
> > PathPilot starts it scans for my USB device and, if found, sends a 
> > query to ensure that I'm actually alive. If I ignore or reject the 
> > alive query then PathPilot ignores me until my USB disconnects and 
> > then
> reconnects.
> >
> > My problem is that I may not yet know if I will ever be alive and 
> > ready when I'm first asked. I have a plan to queue any host requests 
> > received while I'm still initializing.
> >
> > Probably more explanation than you wanted!
>
>
>
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Re: [Emc-users] new motor/vfd has arrived.

[Eric Keller]

U.S. listing of Andy's adapter
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B082KKG55T?pf_rd_r=065XPWF7ZTHWN85F18N6_rd_p=9d9090dd-8b99-4ac3-b4a9-90a1db2ef53b
I'm curious what the rationale is for alligator clips.
Eric Keller
Boalsburg, Pennsylvania



On Fri, Dec 4, 2020 at 6:59 AM andy pugh  wrote:

> On Fri, 4 Dec 2020 at 00:52, Gene Heskett  wrote:
>
> > I currently have a 5i25, driving a cnc4pc c1g bob on P2, with a 7i76D on
> > P3. I can use the spindle controls of the 7i76D or I might be able to
> > talk to it thru rs485. Which is the better control, and if its the
> > rs485, what module does that need
>
> RS485 is likely to give more info about what is going on inside the
> VFD, but will have worse real-time performance. So not as good for CSS
> on a lathe but probably OK on a mill.
> (Except it might introduce some dither on where the reverse is when
> rigid tapping)
>
> But RS485 is only an option if there is an existing LinuxCNC driver,
> or you want to write one.
>
> I am using this to hook up my high-speed spindle:
>
> https://www.amazon.co.uk/DSD-TECH-SH-U13-Alligator-Compatible-black/dp/B082KKG55T
> With the alligator clips cut off.
> No, before you say it, they probably won't deliver to you, but you can
> probably find the same thing  from a US vendor.
>
> --
> atp
> "A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
> designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
> lunatics."
> — George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912
>
>
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Re: [Emc-users] new motor/vfd has arrived.

[Gene Heskett]

On Friday 04 December 2020 06:24:06 andy pugh wrote:

> On Fri, 4 Dec 2020 at 00:52, Gene Heskett  wrote:
> > I currently have a 5i25, driving a cnc4pc c1g bob on P2, with a
> > 7i76D on P3. I can use the spindle controls of the 7i76D or I might
> > be able to talk to it thru rs485. Which is the better control, and
> > if its the rs485, what module does that need
>
> RS485 is likely to give more info about what is going on inside the
> VFD, but will have worse real-time performance. So not as good for CSS
> on a lathe but probably OK on a mill.

Ok, I'll run this one by the conventional means. Not that CSS is any 
great use on a BBLB gantry.

> (Except it might introduce some dither on where the reverse is when
> rigid tapping)

Not to even be tried w/o an encoder.  And I've not seen one of these 
spindles with an encoder yet. With a synchronous motor maybe but all I 
can see in my minds eye is burned up and broken tooling.  I do enough of 
that un-intentionally. :(

> But RS485 is only an option if there is an existing LinuxCNC driver,
> or you want to write one.
>
> I am using this to hook up my high-speed spindle:
> https://www.amazon.co.uk/DSD-TECH-SH-U13-Alligator-Compatible-black/dp
>/B082KKG55T With the alligator clips cut off.
> No, before you say it, they probably won't deliver to you, but you can
> probably find the same thing  from a US vendor.

I am usually on the lookout for such gizmo's but don't recall seeing it, 
looks and sounds handy as a test tool though.

But I don't expect to do any rigid tapping on any machine with one of 
these spindles.  Not enough torque and no encoder driven tach.  Thread 
milling maybe but haven't tripped over any mills small enough to do the 
threads I'd need. I do have one thread mill, but I bought it by mistake 
and if I ever need to thread a really really large hole, I do have 
a .750 inch diameter thread mill. :)

Thanks Andy.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 


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Re: [Emc-users] new motor/vfd has arrived.

[andy pugh]

On Fri, 4 Dec 2020 at 00:52, Gene Heskett  wrote:

> I currently have a 5i25, driving a cnc4pc c1g bob on P2, with a 7i76D on
> P3. I can use the spindle controls of the 7i76D or I might be able to
> talk to it thru rs485. Which is the better control, and if its the
> rs485, what module does that need

RS485 is likely to give more info about what is going on inside the
VFD, but will have worse real-time performance. So not as good for CSS
on a lathe but probably OK on a mill.
(Except it might introduce some dither on where the reverse is when
rigid tapping)

But RS485 is only an option if there is an existing LinuxCNC driver,
or you want to write one.

I am using this to hook up my high-speed spindle:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/DSD-TECH-SH-U13-Alligator-Compatible-black/dp/B082KKG55T
With the alligator clips cut off.
No, before you say it, they probably won't deliver to you, but you can
probably find the same thing  from a US vendor.

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912


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Re: [Emc-users] "External" homing

[andy pugh]

On Thu, 3 Dec 2020 at 20:53, Frederic RIBLE  wrote:

> However, I cannot find good reference about clean integration with
> LinuxCNC own homing logic.
> Especially re-using standard GUI homing button/status, and auto-mode
> inhibition when homing is not done

I suspect that it might be best to ignore the built-in homing.
Configure for immediate homing (ie zero HOME_SEARCH_VELOCITY) and then
handle to motion interlock with the motion pins.
(Maybe motion.feed-inhibit is appropriate:
http://linuxcnc.org/docs/2.8/html/man/man9/motion.9.html )

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912


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