[Emc-users] Working on Pendant and debouncer PCBs, comments welcome.

[Chris Albertson]

I am going to have JLPCB make some PCBs for me.  They cost only $2 each but
DHL shipping from China is $25 so it makes sense to wait until I have
several projects ready and give then a batch of designs.  They populate the
board now for the price of the components, so it is a great deal.  They do
all the SMT soldering for you.

Two things might interest people here, a USB connected pendant and a
hardware switch debouncer.

The switch debouncer will handle 6 switches, it accepts a raw switch and
outputs a reliably debounced signal.  It will use an RC lowpass filter and
a 74HC014 Schmitt trigger. With an LED for each switch.  Yes, you can do
the debounce in software but this will handle the noise with hardware.  I'm
still deciding about connectors.  Screw terminals or JST?  Or both.

The pendant is more complex and I'm not sure of the details but here are
proposed features:

   - It will connect with USB.
   - There are three knobs.  All are of the continuous rotation type with
   A/B quadrature output.
  - The main knob is a CNC "MPG" handwheel with 100 "clicks" per
  revolution.
  - The other two are much smaller with about 20 clicks per
  revolution and also a push-button click operation, like on a car radio.
  These two knobs replace the more common selector switches.
  - There is a character-only LCD screen that can display four lines of
   text, 20 characters long
   - There are no labels printed on the front panel.  The current function
   of the two small knobs is displayed on the last line of the LCD

The goal is first off a "clean look" with both low complexity and
open-ended design.  I think using a character display and rotary controls
does this.   This pendant could run a 6 axis robot arm or a lathe depending
on the programming.

*One question:Does a pendant need a "activate" button* on the side such
that the controls are disabled if you don't hold the button down.  You
don't want to jog a mill by accident if the wheel is bumped.

I'm making this for myself but I'm designing this as if it were an actual
product.   So I ask "What would be useful?

I've decided I don't like the idea of a standard red E-Stop button because
someone might confuse it with the hard-wired kind.  USB can not support
that.  But I do want a way to quickly stop the machine.  I think pressing
both small knobs at the same time will stop and re-set everything.  It will
set the e-stop hal pin and reset the pendant to default.  (Yes e-stop could
fail if there is a bug in the software)

[image: Simple Pendant v2.jpg]








Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California
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Re: [Emc-users] Working on Pendant and debouncer PCBs, comments welcome.

[John Dammeyer]

 
> I've decided I don't like the idea of a standard red E-Stop button because
> someone might confuse it with the hard-wired kind.  USB can not support
> that.  But I do want a way to quickly stop the machine.  I think pressing
> both small knobs at the same time will stop and re-set everything.  It will
> set the e-stop hal pin and reset the pendant to default.  (Yes e-stop could
> fail if there is a bug in the software)
> 
> Chris Albertson
> Redondo Beach, California

For my ELS I have a STOP button.  Press it and it is like a feed hold.  The 
current move completes and then the system stops.  So it doesn't stop in the 
middle of threading but moves the Z until it's finished that pass and then 
stops.  If START is pressed again it then withdraws the tool (X axis) and 
continues back to the begin position.

But if you press and hold the STOP button for a second or so it stops motion 
now.  And if the tool bit is in the middle of threading you will trash the 
thread.  But if it's headed in the wrong direction because you entered a 
Positive END position rather than a negative one from the 0 start position then 
pressing and holding STOP prevents it from going too far in the wrong direction.

One button, one finger, two operations depending on how long it's held.

John Dammeyer



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Re: [Emc-users] Working on Pendant and debouncer PCBs, comments welcome.

[TJoseph Powderly]

Re pendant. The heidenhain controls use a box with strong magnets on rear.
Between the magnets is a deadman switch
(suitably runner dome covered for industrial use )
You can slap it onto any flat surface and the deaman is satisfied.
You can hold it in your hand,,, left hand... thumb on left side,
left forefinger on button, remaining fingers on right side.
On the front are keys and any lcd. On right is an estop
and a deeply dimpled wheel to turn an encoder for motion.
You put a fingertip in a dimple and lay a finger on the outside ribs,
the ribs give you a ergonomic detent very natural to use.
You can jog and handwheel as you like IF the deadman is satisfied.
hth
tomp

On Mon, Jun 8, 2020 at 11:02 AM Chris Albertson
 wrote:
>
> I am going to have JLPCB make some PCBs for me.  They cost only $2 each but
> DHL shipping from China is $25 so it makes sense to wait until I have
> several projects ready and give then a batch of designs.  They populate the
> board now for the price of the components, so it is a great deal.  They do
> all the SMT soldering for you.
>
> Two things might interest people here, a USB connected pendant and a
> hardware switch debouncer.
>
> The switch debouncer will handle 6 switches, it accepts a raw switch and
> outputs a reliably debounced signal.  It will use an RC lowpass filter and
> a 74HC014 Schmitt trigger. With an LED for each switch.  Yes, you can do
> the debounce in software but this will handle the noise with hardware.  I'm
> still deciding about connectors.  Screw terminals or JST?  Or both.
>
> The pendant is more complex and I'm not sure of the details but here are
> proposed features:
>
>- It will connect with USB.
>- There are three knobs.  All are of the continuous rotation type with
>A/B quadrature output.
>   - The main knob is a CNC "MPG" handwheel with 100 "clicks" per
>   revolution.
>   - The other two are much smaller with about 20 clicks per
>   revolution and also a push-button click operation, like on a car radio.
>   These two knobs replace the more common selector switches.
>   - There is a character-only LCD screen that can display four lines of
>text, 20 characters long
>- There are no labels printed on the front panel.  The current function
>of the two small knobs is displayed on the last line of the LCD
>
> The goal is first off a "clean look" with both low complexity and
> open-ended design.  I think using a character display and rotary controls
> does this.   This pendant could run a 6 axis robot arm or a lathe depending
> on the programming.
>
> *One question:Does a pendant need a "activate" button* on the side such
> that the controls are disabled if you don't hold the button down.  You
> don't want to jog a mill by accident if the wheel is bumped.
>
> I'm making this for myself but I'm designing this as if it were an actual
> product.   So I ask "What would be useful?
>
> I've decided I don't like the idea of a standard red E-Stop button because
> someone might confuse it with the hard-wired kind.  USB can not support
> that.  But I do want a way to quickly stop the machine.  I think pressing
> both small knobs at the same time will stop and re-set everything.  It will
> set the e-stop hal pin and reset the pendant to default.  (Yes e-stop could
> fail if there is a bug in the software)
>
> [image: Simple Pendant v2.jpg]
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Chris Albertson
> Redondo Beach, California
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Re: [Emc-users] Working on Pendant and debouncer PCBs, comments welcome.

[TJoseph Powderly]

sorry that pic is not an hr33, this is

On Mon, Jun 8, 2020 at 11:02 AM Chris Albertson
 wrote:
>
> I am going to have JLPCB make some PCBs for me.  They cost only $2 each but
> DHL shipping from China is $25 so it makes sense to wait until I have
> several projects ready and give then a batch of designs.  They populate the
> board now for the price of the components, so it is a great deal.  They do
> all the SMT soldering for you.
>
> Two things might interest people here, a USB connected pendant and a
> hardware switch debouncer.
>
> The switch debouncer will handle 6 switches, it accepts a raw switch and
> outputs a reliably debounced signal.  It will use an RC lowpass filter and
> a 74HC014 Schmitt trigger. With an LED for each switch.  Yes, you can do
> the debounce in software but this will handle the noise with hardware.  I'm
> still deciding about connectors.  Screw terminals or JST?  Or both.
>
> The pendant is more complex and I'm not sure of the details but here are
> proposed features:
>
>- It will connect with USB.
>- There are three knobs.  All are of the continuous rotation type with
>A/B quadrature output.
>   - The main knob is a CNC "MPG" handwheel with 100 "clicks" per
>   revolution.
>   - The other two are much smaller with about 20 clicks per
>   revolution and also a push-button click operation, like on a car radio.
>   These two knobs replace the more common selector switches.
>   - There is a character-only LCD screen that can display four lines of
>text, 20 characters long
>- There are no labels printed on the front panel.  The current function
>of the two small knobs is displayed on the last line of the LCD
>
> The goal is first off a "clean look" with both low complexity and
> open-ended design.  I think using a character display and rotary controls
> does this.   This pendant could run a 6 axis robot arm or a lathe depending
> on the programming.
>
> *One question:Does a pendant need a "activate" button* on the side such
> that the controls are disabled if you don't hold the button down.  You
> don't want to jog a mill by accident if the wheel is bumped.
>
> I'm making this for myself but I'm designing this as if it were an actual
> product.   So I ask "What would be useful?
>
> I've decided I don't like the idea of a standard red E-Stop button because
> someone might confuse it with the hard-wired kind.  USB can not support
> that.  But I do want a way to quickly stop the machine.  I think pressing
> both small knobs at the same time will stop and re-set everything.  It will
> set the e-stop hal pin and reset the pendant to default.  (Yes e-stop could
> fail if there is a bug in the software)
>
> [image: Simple Pendant v2.jpg]
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Chris Albertson
> Redondo Beach, California
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Re: [Emc-users] Working on Pendant and debouncer PCBs, comments welcome.

[Jon Elson]

On 06/07/2020 10:59 PM, Chris Albertson wrote:

*One question:Does a pendant need a "activate" button* on the side such
that the controls are disabled if you don't hold the button down.  You
don't want to jog a mill by accident if the wheel is bumped.
YES !!!  I have mine set up that way.  Make sure the button 
can be held by your index finger while your thumb can turn 
the skirt on the MPG dial, this allows one-hand jogging to 
touch-off.


On this picture, the button at the lower left is the jog 
enable, the one above it is a momentary E-stop.

http://pico-systems.com/images/mmpendant.jpg


Jon


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Re: [Emc-users] Working on Pendant and debouncer PCBs, comments welcome.

[André Meier]

Have you seen this DIY Handwheel projekt?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y1_VYIPNtuk&t=629s

André


Am Mo., 8. Juni 2020 um 17:54 Uhr schrieb Jon Elson :

> On 06/07/2020 10:59 PM, Chris Albertson wrote:
> > *One question:Does a pendant need a "activate" button* on the side
> such
> > that the controls are disabled if you don't hold the button down.  You
> > don't want to jog a mill by accident if the wheel is bumped.
> YES !!!  I have mine set up that way.  Make sure the button
> can be held by your index finger while your thumb can turn
> the skirt on the MPG dial, this allows one-hand jogging to
> touch-off.
>
> On this picture, the button at the lower left is the jog
> enable, the one above it is a momentary E-stop.
> http://pico-systems.com/images/mmpendant.jpg
>
>
> Jon
>
>
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Re: [Emc-users] Working on Pendant and debouncer PCBs, comments welcome.

[Chris Albertson]

No, I had not seen this one.   I like the shape of the case I might use
parts of the case profile.   This looks like it might fit the hand well.
He also had a great idea to design the case so that it can be mirrored for
left or right-handed use.

The 20 characters wide display would not fit but the part with the jog
wheel and "deadman" jog enable button are usable.  He has some good ideas
to borrow.

This pendant seems to depend on a Mesa card that can connect to RS442 and
on Smart Serial.

I see the builder has a link to JLPCB.   These guys will make first rate
quality PCBs for $2 each.It is a real game-changer for hobby
electrics.  I'd like to build a real-time interface card that works for
LinuxCNC and ROS that an end-user could have for under $30.


On Mon, Jun 8, 2020 at 10:04 AM André Meier  wrote:

> Have you seen this DIY Handwheel projekt?
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y1_VYIPNtuk&t=629s
>
> André
>
>
> Am Mo., 8. Juni 2020 um 17:54 Uhr schrieb Jon Elson <
> el...@pico-systems.com
> >:
>
> > On 06/07/2020 10:59 PM, Chris Albertson wrote:
> > > *One question:Does a pendant need a "activate" button* on the side
> > such
> > > that the controls are disabled if you don't hold the button down.  You
> > > don't want to jog a mill by accident if the wheel is bumped.
> > YES !!!  I have mine set up that way.  Make sure the button
> > can be held by your index finger while your thumb can turn
> > the skirt on the MPG dial, this allows one-hand jogging to
> > touch-off.
> >
> > On this picture, the button at the lower left is the jog
> > enable, the one above it is a momentary E-stop.
> > http://pico-systems.com/images/mmpendant.jpg
> >
> >
> > Jon
> >
> >
> > ___
> > Emc-users mailing list
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> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
> >
>
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-- 

Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California

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Re: [Emc-users] Working on Pendant and debouncer PCBs, comments welcome.

[John Dammeyer]

My TI Delfino F28379D Launchpad kit just arrived.  This has dual processors, 
dual floating point units, QEI modules, CAN bus and a fair amount of memory.  
And around $40 with shipping.  There's lots of support for using these as AC 
Servo motor controllers but I'm still looking at ELS replacements for my PIC18F 
series board and potentially that ELS-MILL unit which in many ways would be 
more like a smart pendent.

https://www.ti.com/tool/LAUNCHXL-F28379D

It doesn't have Ethernet but can be a USB device.   Or for that matter a SPI 
bus device.

I'll post progress reports under a different subject line once I find more than 
5 minutes to play with it.

John Dammeyer




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Re: [Emc-users] Working on Pendant and debouncer PCBs, comments welcome.

[Chris Albertson]

$40?  I've been using these whenever I can ebay.com/itm/STM32F103C8T6

I use them as it where were a giant DIP chip  At $2.80 each you can buy in
bulk and just have some around.   Mostly the pins are 5V tolerant

But the deciding factor is the software environment. The STM32 works with
the Arduino IDE as well as GCC/Eclipse and Arm's "mbed" ecosystem and STM's
"stm cube".  THere are also a few RTOSes if yu need a realtime OS.   So
there ar many software option.   For really simple stuff the Arduino IDE
works but I've used a multi-tasking RTOS too.And you can't beat the
price.These will certainly handle a pendant.

What they can't handle, I found is two A/B encoders that are both
running at high speed (11,000 RPM) and a serial port and a couple of PID
loops.  For that I use the bigger version of about the same thing  that
cost $14. st.com/.../nucleo-f446re.html

 This one has hardware floating-point and a faster clock.   THere is a $7
"motor control shield that works to control up to about 12 amp DC motor  so
you get to control and drive a couple servoes with encoders for about $35
with off the shelf hardware (no solder.)  ebay.com/itm/Dual-VNH2SP30

The VHN chip was design for aautomotive use for seat adjustment and
windsheild wipers

f you are going to build an open-source project, you need a
software environment that  potential contributors can use.   Software is
usually the weak link for most hobby builders   Most are not up to using
GCC and Eclipse.

On Mon, Jun 8, 2020 at 1:23 PM John Dammeyer  wrote:

> My TI Delfino F28379D Launchpad kit just arrived.  This has dual
> processors, dual floating point units, QEI modules, CAN bus and a fair
> amount of memory.  And around $40 with shipping.  There's lots of support
> for using these as AC Servo motor controllers but I'm still looking at ELS
> replacements for my PIC18F series board and potentially that ELS-MILL unit
> which in many ways would be more like a smart pendent.
>
> https://www.ti.com/tool/LAUNCHXL-F28379D
>
> It doesn't have Ethernet but can be a USB device.   Or for that matter a
> SPI bus device.
>
> I'll post progress reports under a different subject line once I find more
> than 5 minutes to play with it.
>
> John Dammeyer
>
>
>
>
> ___
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-- 

Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California

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Re: [Emc-users] Working on Pendant and debouncer PCBs, comments welcome.

[John Dammeyer]

> -Original Message-
> From: Chris Albertson [mailto:albertson.ch...@gmail.com]
> 
> f you are going to build an open-source project, you need a
> software environment that  potential contributors can use.   Software is
> usually the weak link for most hobby builders   Most are not up to using
> GCC and Eclipse.

When I first designed the ELS back in 2006 I had that philosophy.  I started 
using a 16 bit DSP which had the QEI encoder module, CAN, even Barrel Shifter.  
However, I bought into the idea that it should work on an easy and free 
development environment.  So we ended up with a MACH2/3 1PPR counting for the 
spindle because I chose the 8 bit PIC.  And I did get a couple of people who 
contributed with some bug fixes.  But overall not.

So this time I'm going to follow my own advice and do what I tell clients and 
students.  
1. Define the project and what you want it to do.  
2. Determine what parts/products and development environment will satisfy those 
needs.

Not the other way around.  So the worst thing anyone can ever do is state I 
want to build  this project and it has to use an Arduino because it's really 
popular.   Don't know if the Arduino will do it but it's really popular and 
everyone uses it.

That's like saying I really like this little truck and I want to move gravel.  
And it's such a popular truck. I read more of these have been sold than any 
other.  So it must be the right truck.  

Of course ignoring that for each trip that truck limits the amount of gravel to 
1/2 ton and to get the project done you need 10 tons per trip.  But really so 
many people can drive a half ton truck and you don't need a special license or 
all that extra insurance.  And gravel is gravel right?

So if I want a processor that has two 200 MHz cores and two separate floating 
point units tightly coupled with shared memory so that I can have real time 
motion on one and trajectory planning on the other then maybe an 8bit Arduino 
isn't quite there.  Nor are the ST processors that I've looked at.  

In fact I'd use a BeagleBone Black with its two PRU's before I'd use the 
Arduino environment. 

John


> 
> On Mon, Jun 8, 2020 at 1:23 PM John Dammeyer  wrote:
> 
> > My TI Delfino F28379D Launchpad kit just arrived.  This has dual
> > processors, dual floating point units, QEI modules, CAN bus and a fair
> > amount of memory.  And around $40 with shipping.  There's lots of support
> > for using these as AC Servo motor controllers but I'm still looking at ELS
> > replacements for my PIC18F series board and potentially that ELS-MILL unit
> > which in many ways would be more like a smart pendent.
> >
> > https://www.ti.com/tool/LAUNCHXL-F28379D
> >
> > It doesn't have Ethernet but can be a USB device.   Or for that matter a
> > SPI bus device.
> >
> > I'll post progress reports under a different subject line once I find more
> > than 5 minutes to play with it.
> >
> > John Dammeyer
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ___
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> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
> >
> 
> 
> --
> 
> Chris Albertson
> Redondo Beach, California
> 
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Re: [Emc-users] Working on Pendant and debouncer PCBs, comments welcome.

[Groups]

Hi John,

Have a look at the Teensy 4.1. 
https://www.pjrc.com/teensy-4-1-released/
600Mhz Cortex-M7. In a long dip form factor. Arduino development compatible for 
US$27

https://www.pjrc.com/store/teensy41.html

Cheers. 

Peter Homann - (from my mobile)
http://www.homanndesigns.com

> On 9 Jun 2020, at 9:16 am, John Dammeyer  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
>> -Original Message-
>> From: Chris Albertson [mailto:albertson.ch...@gmail.com]
>> 
>> f you are going to build an open-source project, you need a
>> software environment that  potential contributors can use.   Software is
>> usually the weak link for most hobby builders   Most are not up to using
>> GCC and Eclipse.
> 
> When I first designed the ELS back in 2006 I had that philosophy.  I started 
> using a 16 bit DSP which had the QEI encoder module, CAN, even Barrel 
> Shifter.  However, I bought into the idea that it should work on an easy and 
> free development environment.  So we ended up with a MACH2/3 1PPR counting 
> for the spindle because I chose the 8 bit PIC.  And I did get a couple of 
> people who contributed with some bug fixes.  But overall not.
> 
> So this time I'm going to follow my own advice and do what I tell clients and 
> students.  
> 1. Define the project and what you want it to do.  
> 2. Determine what parts/products and development environment will satisfy 
> those needs.
> 
> Not the other way around.  So the worst thing anyone can ever do is state I 
> want to build  this project and it has to use an Arduino because it's really 
> popular.   Don't know if the Arduino will do it but it's really popular and 
> everyone uses it.
> 
> That's like saying I really like this little truck and I want to move gravel. 
>  And it's such a popular truck. I read more of these have been sold than any 
> other.  So it must be the right truck.  
> 
> Of course ignoring that for each trip that truck limits the amount of gravel 
> to 1/2 ton and to get the project done you need 10 tons per trip.  But really 
> so many people can drive a half ton truck and you don't need a special 
> license or all that extra insurance.  And gravel is gravel right?
> 
> So if I want a processor that has two 200 MHz cores and two separate floating 
> point units tightly coupled with shared memory so that I can have real time 
> motion on one and trajectory planning on the other then maybe an 8bit Arduino 
> isn't quite there.  Nor are the ST processors that I've looked at.  
> 
> In fact I'd use a BeagleBone Black with its two PRU's before I'd use the 
> Arduino environment. 
> 
> John
> 
> 
>> 
>>> On Mon, Jun 8, 2020 at 1:23 PM John Dammeyer  wrote:
>>> 
>>> My TI Delfino F28379D Launchpad kit just arrived.  This has dual
>>> processors, dual floating point units, QEI modules, CAN bus and a fair
>>> amount of memory.  And around $40 with shipping.  There's lots of support
>>> for using these as AC Servo motor controllers but I'm still looking at ELS
>>> replacements for my PIC18F series board and potentially that ELS-MILL unit
>>> which in many ways would be more like a smart pendent.
>>> 
>>> https://www.ti.com/tool/LAUNCHXL-F28379D
>>> 
>>> It doesn't have Ethernet but can be a USB device.   Or for that matter a
>>> SPI bus device.
>>> 
>>> I'll post progress reports under a different subject line once I find more
>>> than 5 minutes to play with it.
>>> 
>>> John Dammeyer
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> ___
>>> Emc-users mailing list
>>> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> --
>> 
>> Chris Albertson
>> Redondo Beach, California
>> 
>> ___
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> 
> 
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Re: [Emc-users] Working on Pendant and debouncer PCBs, comments welcome.

[John Dammeyer]

> -Original Message-
> From: Groups [mailto:gro...@homanndesigns.com]
> Sent: June-08-20 5:21 PM
> To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Working on Pendant and debouncer PCBs, comments 
> welcome.
> 
> Hi John,
> 
> Have a look at the Teensy 4.1.
> https://www.pjrc.com/teensy-4-1-released/
> 600Mhz Cortex-M7. In a long dip form factor. Arduino development compatible 
> for US$27
> 
> https://www.pjrc.com/store/teensy41.html
> 
I don't need the link.  I just have to look in my box of Teensy boards.  A 
couple of 3.1.  A 3.2 and a 4.1.  Not to mention other ones they plug into to 
drive LED arrays.

Just can't stand the Arduino development environment.  But then I also made 
sure I wasn't brain damaged for life by making my first programming language 
Fortran.

I can send you the Arduino program that crashes regularly on an ESP8266 driving 
LEDs.  Haven't yet figured out why or how to trap it since it's in one of the 
libraries.  And unless someone has come up with a way to stop it when you 
compile in that environment it makes sure to erase all the intermediate files 
so you can't even look at what the compiler produces.  



> Cheers.
> 
> Peter Homann - (from my mobile)
> http://www.homanndesigns.com
> 
> > On 9 Jun 2020, at 9:16 am, John Dammeyer  wrote:
> >
> > ?
> >
> >> -Original Message-
> >> From: Chris Albertson [mailto:albertson.ch...@gmail.com]
> >>
> >> f you are going to build an open-source project, you need a
> >> software environment that  potential contributors can use.   Software is
> >> usually the weak link for most hobby builders   Most are not up to using
> >> GCC and Eclipse.
> >
> > When I first designed the ELS back in 2006 I had that philosophy.  I 
> > started using a 16 bit DSP which had the QEI encoder module,
> CAN, even Barrel Shifter.  However, I bought into the idea that it should 
> work on an easy and free development environment.  So
> we ended up with a MACH2/3 1PPR counting for the spindle because I chose the 
> 8 bit PIC.  And I did get a couple of people who
> contributed with some bug fixes.  But overall not.
> >
> > So this time I'm going to follow my own advice and do what I tell clients 
> > and students.
> > 1. Define the project and what you want it to do.
> > 2. Determine what parts/products and development environment will satisfy 
> > those needs.
> >
> > Not the other way around.  So the worst thing anyone can ever do is state I 
> > want to build  this project and it has to use an
> Arduino because it's really popular.   Don't know if the Arduino will do it 
> but it's really popular and everyone uses it.
> >
> > That's like saying I really like this little truck and I want to move 
> > gravel.  And it's such a popular truck. I read more of these have
> been sold than any other.  So it must be the right truck.
> >
> > Of course ignoring that for each trip that truck limits the amount of 
> > gravel to 1/2 ton and to get the project done you need 10
> tons per trip.  But really so many people can drive a half ton truck and you 
> don't need a special license or all that extra insurance.
> And gravel is gravel right?
> >
> > So if I want a processor that has two 200 MHz cores and two separate 
> > floating point units tightly coupled with shared memory so
> that I can have real time motion on one and trajectory planning on the other 
> then maybe an 8bit Arduino isn't quite there.  Nor are
> the ST processors that I've looked at.
> >
> > In fact I'd use a BeagleBone Black with its two PRU's before I'd use the 
> > Arduino environment.
> >
> > John
> >
> >
> >>
> >>> On Mon, Jun 8, 2020 at 1:23 PM John Dammeyer  
> >>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> My TI Delfino F28379D Launchpad kit just arrived.  This has dual
> >>> processors, dual floating point units, QEI modules, CAN bus and a fair
> >>> amount of memory.  And around $40 with shipping.  There's lots of support
> >>> for using these as AC Servo motor controllers but I'm still looking at ELS
> >>> replacements for my PIC18F series board and potentially that ELS-MILL unit
> >>> which in many ways would be more like a smart pendent.
> >>>
> >>> https://www.ti.com/tool/LAUNCHXL-F28379D
> >>>
> >>> It doesn't have Ethernet but can be a USB device.   Or for that matter a
> >>> SPI bus device.
> >>>
> >>> I'll post progr

Re: [Emc-users] Working on Pendant and debouncer PCBs, comments welcome.

[Chris Albertson]

THose parts, even the $2.80 development board are gross overkill for an ELS
system.   They have hardware quadrature counting up to a few MHz. and an
available real-time OS if you want.real

One compromise that I think really is worth making is to look at JLPSB's
short list is "basic" components.  They will solder any of those to a PCB
for free, just the cost of the part with some parts under a penny each.
Not having tomess with reflow oven, microscopes and hot is worth being
restricted to a short (800 item) list of parts.

On Mon, Jun 8, 2020 at 4:17 PM John Dammeyer  wrote:

>
>
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Chris Albertson [mailto:albertson.ch...@gmail.com]
> >
> > f you are going to build an open-source project, you need a
> > software environment that  potential contributors can use.   Software is
> > usually the weak link for most hobby builders   Most are not up to using
> > GCC and Eclipse.
>
> When I first designed the ELS back in 2006 I had that philosophy.  I
> started using a 16 bit DSP which had the QEI encoder module, CAN, even
> Barrel Shifter.  However, I bought into the idea that it should work on an
> easy and free development environment.  So we ended up with a MACH2/3 1PPR
> counting for the spindle because I chose the 8 bit PIC.  And I did get a
> couple of people who contributed with some bug fixes.  But overall not.
>
> So this time I'm going to follow my own advice and do what I tell clients
> and students.
> 1. Define the project and what you want it to do.
> 2. Determine what parts/products and development environment will satisfy
> those needs.
>
> Not the other way around.  So the worst thing anyone can ever do is state
> I want to build  this project and it has to use an Arduino because it's
> really popular.   Don't know if the Arduino will do it but it's really
> popular and everyone uses it.
>
> That's like saying I really like this little truck and I want to move
> gravel.  And it's such a popular truck. I read more of these have been sold
> than any other.  So it must be the right truck.
>
> Of course ignoring that for each trip that truck limits the amount of
> gravel to 1/2 ton and to get the project done you need 10 tons per trip.
> But really so many people can drive a half ton truck and you don't need a
> special license or all that extra insurance.  And gravel is gravel right?
>
> So if I want a processor that has two 200 MHz cores and two separate
> floating point units tightly coupled with shared memory so that I can have
> real time motion on one and trajectory planning on the other then maybe an
> 8bit Arduino isn't quite there.  Nor are the ST processors that I've looked
> at.
>
> In fact I'd use a BeagleBone Black with its two PRU's before I'd use the
> Arduino environment.
>
> John
>
>
> >
> > On Mon, Jun 8, 2020 at 1:23 PM John Dammeyer 
> wrote:
> >
> > > My TI Delfino F28379D Launchpad kit just arrived.  This has dual
> > > processors, dual floating point units, QEI modules, CAN bus and a fair
> > > amount of memory.  And around $40 with shipping.  There's lots of
> support
> > > for using these as AC Servo motor controllers but I'm still looking at
> ELS
> > > replacements for my PIC18F series board and potentially that ELS-MILL
> unit
> > > which in many ways would be more like a smart pendent.
> > >
> > > https://www.ti.com/tool/LAUNCHXL-F28379D
> > >
> > > It doesn't have Ethernet but can be a USB device.   Or for that matter
> a
> > > SPI bus device.
> > >
> > > I'll post progress reports under a different subject line once I find
> more
> > > than 5 minutes to play with it.
> > >
> > > John Dammeyer
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ___
> > > Emc-users mailing list
> > > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> > Chris Albertson
> > Redondo Beach, California
> >
> > ___
> > Emc-users mailing list
> > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>
>
>
> ___
> Emc-users mailing list
> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>


-- 

Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California

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Re: [Emc-users] Working on Pendant and debouncer PCBs, comments welcome.

[Groups]

Hi John,

Just bare-metal program it then with GCC. 
You can use the onboard boot loader to program it. 

If you want to connect a debugger you will have to hack out the SWD JTAG lines. 


Peter Homann - (from my mobile)
http://www.homanndesigns.com

> On 9 Jun 2020, at 12:31 pm, Chris Albertson  wrote:
> 
> THose parts, even the $2.80 development board are gross overkill for an ELS
> system.   They have hardware quadrature counting up to a few MHz. and an
> available real-time OS if you want.real
> 
> One compromise that I think really is worth making is to look at JLPSB's
> short list is "basic" components.  They will solder any of those to a PCB
> for free, just the cost of the part with some parts under a penny each.
> Not having tomess with reflow oven, microscopes and hot is worth being
> restricted to a short (800 item) list of parts.
> 
>> On Mon, Jun 8, 2020 at 4:17 PM John Dammeyer  wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> -Original Message-
>>> From: Chris Albertson [mailto:albertson.ch...@gmail.com]
>>> 
>>> f you are going to build an open-source project, you need a
>>> software environment that  potential contributors can use.   Software is
>>> usually the weak link for most hobby builders   Most are not up to using
>>> GCC and Eclipse.
>> 
>> When I first designed the ELS back in 2006 I had that philosophy.  I
>> started using a 16 bit DSP which had the QEI encoder module, CAN, even
>> Barrel Shifter.  However, I bought into the idea that it should work on an
>> easy and free development environment.  So we ended up with a MACH2/3 1PPR
>> counting for the spindle because I chose the 8 bit PIC.  And I did get a
>> couple of people who contributed with some bug fixes.  But overall not.
>> 
>> So this time I'm going to follow my own advice and do what I tell clients
>> and students.
>> 1. Define the project and what you want it to do.
>> 2. Determine what parts/products and development environment will satisfy
>> those needs.
>> 
>> Not the other way around.  So the worst thing anyone can ever do is state
>> I want to build  this project and it has to use an Arduino because it's
>> really popular.   Don't know if the Arduino will do it but it's really
>> popular and everyone uses it.
>> 
>> That's like saying I really like this little truck and I want to move
>> gravel.  And it's such a popular truck. I read more of these have been sold
>> than any other.  So it must be the right truck.
>> 
>> Of course ignoring that for each trip that truck limits the amount of
>> gravel to 1/2 ton and to get the project done you need 10 tons per trip.
>> But really so many people can drive a half ton truck and you don't need a
>> special license or all that extra insurance.  And gravel is gravel right?
>> 
>> So if I want a processor that has two 200 MHz cores and two separate
>> floating point units tightly coupled with shared memory so that I can have
>> real time motion on one and trajectory planning on the other then maybe an
>> 8bit Arduino isn't quite there.  Nor are the ST processors that I've looked
>> at.
>> 
>> In fact I'd use a BeagleBone Black with its two PRU's before I'd use the
>> Arduino environment.
>> 
>> John
>> 
>> 
>>> 
>>> On Mon, Jun 8, 2020 at 1:23 PM John Dammeyer 
>> wrote:
>>> 
 My TI Delfino F28379D Launchpad kit just arrived.  This has dual
 processors, dual floating point units, QEI modules, CAN bus and a fair
 amount of memory.  And around $40 with shipping.  There's lots of
>> support
 for using these as AC Servo motor controllers but I'm still looking at
>> ELS
 replacements for my PIC18F series board and potentially that ELS-MILL
>> unit
 which in many ways would be more like a smart pendent.
 
 https://www.ti.com/tool/LAUNCHXL-F28379D
 
 It doesn't have Ethernet but can be a USB device.   Or for that matter
>> a
 SPI bus device.
 
 I'll post progress reports under a different subject line once I find
>> more
 than 5 minutes to play with it.
 
 John Dammeyer
 
 
 
 
 ___
 Emc-users mailing list
 Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
 https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> --
>>> 
>>> Chris Albertson
>>> Redondo Beach, California
>>> 
>>> ___
>>> Emc-users mailing list
>>> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> ___
>> Emc-users mailing list
>> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> 
> Chris Albertson
> Redondo Beach, California
> 
> ___
> Emc-users mailing list
> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users



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h

Re: [Emc-users] Working on Pendant and debouncer PCBs, comments welcome.

[John Dammeyer]

> From: Chris Albertson [mailto:albertson.ch...@gmail.com]


> THose parts, even the $2.80 development board are gross overkill for an ELS
> system.   They have hardware quadrature counting up to a few MHz. and an
> available real-time OS if you want.real

I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this.  I think your definition of an 
ELS appears to be different from mine.   Plus I no longer care if I make 
something that requires a minimum of a BSc in Computer Science to understand 
and modify.

In reality the market for any sort of custom pendant is now pretty well zero.  
There are those who will build something from an Arduino or a Pi.  But they 
won't sell thousands or even hundreds.

I still like my ShuttleExpress on my MACH3 CNC router.   I'd buy another.
http://www.contourdesign.ca/product/shuttlexpress/

I've got one of those far east MPG pendants on the LinuxCNC/MACH3 dual boot 
system.  Works with either.  I finally got the display for the MODIO and I've 
had that working with MACH3.  Have yet to try the Modbus side of things for 
LinuxCNC.
It's like this one except wired.  Not wireless and I think it cost me $65.
https://www.amazon.ca/Autek-Wireless-Mac-Mach-Pendant-Handwheel/dp/B078HX2RM3/ref=sr_1_19


Other than the price of the processor, what is it specifically that you don't 
like about the TMS320F28379D.

John


> One compromise that I think really is worth making is to look at JLPSB's
> short list is "basic" components.  They will solder any of those to a PCB
> for free, just the cost of the part with some parts under a penny each.
> Not having tomess with reflow oven, microscopes and hot is worth being
> restricted to a short (800 item) list of parts.
> 
> On Mon, Jun 8, 2020 at 4:17 PM John Dammeyer  wrote:
> 



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Re: [Emc-users] Working on Pendant and debouncer PCBs, comments welcome.

[John Dammeyer]

Hi Peter,

I'm far more interested in the dual processor TMS320F28379D than the ST family.

I've already ported my ELS code over to a PIC32 and through a buffer board have 
a 40 pin ribbon cable plugged in place of the PIC18F.  

It will be trivial to lay out a board that does this and uses the 
PIC32MK1024MCF064 which has 6 quadrature encoder devices, four CAN modules,  
PWM for motor control etc.  And since I have an ICD-4 for programming and 
debugging I can't see changing to a different family that wouldn't do anything 
different.  And it's only $7.30 Cdn. in singles.  

The PIC32 is 120MHz.  Single core and currently executes the ELS interrupt 
routine in under 3uS.  The PIC18 took 35uS which is what limited my max step 
rate to 20kHz.  You might remember the issues I had with your step to 10V 
module requiring 25kHz to reach 10V.  I still have that in a box somewhere.

Anyway I'm pretty sure the 200Mhz F28379D will also not require much time.   
But that's the experiment.  Once I figure out how to use this new IDE for the 
TI device I'll port the ELS code to it. 

I believe with most far more interested in an electronic gearing Arduino the 
market for any sort of sophisticated ELS is zero.

John


> -Original Message-
> From: Groups [mailto:gro...@homanndesigns.com]
> Sent: June-08-20 8:21 PM
> To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Working on Pendant and debouncer PCBs, comments 
> welcome.
> 
> Hi John,
> 
> Just bare-metal program it then with GCC.
> You can use the onboard boot loader to program it.
> 
> If you want to connect a debugger you will have to hack out the SWD JTAG 
> lines.
> 
> 
> Peter Homann - (from my mobile)
> http://www.homanndesigns.com
> 
> > On 9 Jun 2020, at 12:31 pm, Chris Albertson  
> > wrote:
> >
> > ?THose parts, even the $2.80 development board are gross overkill for an ELS
> > system.   They have hardware quadrature counting up to a few MHz. and an
> > available real-time OS if you want.real
> >
> > One compromise that I think really is worth making is to look at JLPSB's
> > short list is "basic" components.  They will solder any of those to a PCB
> > for free, just the cost of the part with some parts under a penny each.
> > Not having tomess with reflow oven, microscopes and hot is worth being
> > restricted to a short (800 item) list of parts.
> >
> >> On Mon, Jun 8, 2020 at 4:17 PM John Dammeyer  
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>> -Original Message-
> >>> From: Chris Albertson [mailto:albertson.ch...@gmail.com]
> >>>
> >>> f you are going to build an open-source project, you need a
> >>> software environment that  potential contributors can use.   Software is
> >>> usually the weak link for most hobby builders   Most are not up to using
> >>> GCC and Eclipse.
> >>
> >> When I first designed the ELS back in 2006 I had that philosophy.  I
> >> started using a 16 bit DSP which had the QEI encoder module, CAN, even
> >> Barrel Shifter.  However, I bought into the idea that it should work on an
> >> easy and free development environment.  So we ended up with a MACH2/3 1PPR
> >> counting for the spindle because I chose the 8 bit PIC.  And I did get a
> >> couple of people who contributed with some bug fixes.  But overall not.
> >>
> >> So this time I'm going to follow my own advice and do what I tell clients
> >> and students.
> >> 1. Define the project and what you want it to do.
> >> 2. Determine what parts/products and development environment will satisfy
> >> those needs.
> >>
> >> Not the other way around.  So the worst thing anyone can ever do is state
> >> I want to build  this project and it has to use an Arduino because it's
> >> really popular.   Don't know if the Arduino will do it but it's really
> >> popular and everyone uses it.
> >>
> >> That's like saying I really like this little truck and I want to move
> >> gravel.  And it's such a popular truck. I read more of these have been sold
> >> than any other.  So it must be the right truck.
> >>
> >> Of course ignoring that for each trip that truck limits the amount of
> >> gravel to 1/2 ton and to get the project done you need 10 tons per trip.
> >> But really so many people can drive a half ton truck and you don't need a
> >> special license or all that extra insurance.  And gravel is gravel right?
> >>
> >> So if I want a processor that has two 200 MHz cores 

Re: [Emc-users] Working on Pendant and debouncer PCBs, comments welcome.

[Chris Albertson]

With Teensy, you don't have to use the Arduino IDE.   It is a Cortex M7.
There are at least four good, professional-level development environments
all the way up the STM's "Cube"

A good compromise is ARM's Mbed.  It is almost as easy as Arduino but
includes a multi-tasking real-time OS with message queues and what you'd
expect or you can program in "bare metal".  They have an online compiler
you can use with no local install and they also have a command line version
that you can integrate with any IDE you have.  It is all open source.
https://os.mbed.com/docs/mbed-os/v6.0/introduction/index.html

The oline compiler is integrated with Git.  Users can contribut sample
programs and libraries and you can search for them and try them in the
online environment then move to the local computer

The M0 is fast enough for an ELS And $2.80 with free shipping makes it
worth having a few.  They are like the older Teensy.   The M7 is better but
physically much larger and costs more.


On Mon, Jun 8, 2020 at 6:10 PM John Dammeyer  wrote:

> > -Original Message-
> > From: Groups [mailto:gro...@homanndesigns.com]
> > Sent: June-08-20 5:21 PM
> > To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> > Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Working on Pendant and debouncer PCBs, comments
> welcome.
> >
> > Hi John,
> >
> > Have a look at the Teensy 4.1.
> > https://www.pjrc.com/teensy-4-1-released/
> > 600Mhz Cortex-M7. In a long dip form factor. Arduino development
> compatible for US$27
> >
> > https://www.pjrc.com/store/teensy41.html
> >
> I don't need the link.  I just have to look in my box of Teensy boards.  A
> couple of 3.1.  A 3.2 and a 4.1.  Not to mention other ones they plug into
> to drive LED arrays.
>
> Just can't stand the Arduino development environment.  But then I also
> made sure I wasn't brain damaged for life by making my first programming
> language Fortran.
>
> I can send you the Arduino program that crashes regularly on an ESP8266
> driving LEDs.  Haven't yet figured out why or how to trap it since it's in
> one of the libraries.  And unless someone has come up with a way to stop it
> when you compile in that environment it makes sure to erase all the
> intermediate files so you can't even look at what the compiler produces.
>
>
>
> > Cheers.
> >
> > Peter Homann - (from my mobile)
> > http://www.homanndesigns.com
> >
> > > On 9 Jun 2020, at 9:16 am, John Dammeyer 
> wrote:
> > >
> > > ?
> > >
> > >> -Original Message-
> > >> From: Chris Albertson [mailto:albertson.ch...@gmail.com]
> > >>
> > >> f you are going to build an open-source project, you need a
> > >> software environment that  potential contributors can use.   Software
> is
> > >> usually the weak link for most hobby builders   Most are not up to
> using
> > >> GCC and Eclipse.
> > >
> > > When I first designed the ELS back in 2006 I had that philosophy.  I
> started using a 16 bit DSP which had the QEI encoder module,
> > CAN, even Barrel Shifter.  However, I bought into the idea that it
> should work on an easy and free development environment.  So
> > we ended up with a MACH2/3 1PPR counting for the spindle because I chose
> the 8 bit PIC.  And I did get a couple of people who
> > contributed with some bug fixes.  But overall not.
> > >
> > > So this time I'm going to follow my own advice and do what I tell
> clients and students.
> > > 1. Define the project and what you want it to do.
> > > 2. Determine what parts/products and development environment will
> satisfy those needs.
> > >
> > > Not the other way around.  So the worst thing anyone can ever do is
> state I want to build  this project and it has to use an
> > Arduino because it's really popular.   Don't know if the Arduino will do
> it but it's really popular and everyone uses it.
> > >
> > > That's like saying I really like this little truck and I want to move
> gravel.  And it's such a popular truck. I read more of these have
> > been sold than any other.  So it must be the right truck.
> > >
> > > Of course ignoring that for each trip that truck limits the amount of
> gravel to 1/2 ton and to get the project done you need 10
> > tons per trip.  But really so many people can drive a half ton truck and
> you don't need a special license or all that extra insurance.
> > And gravel is gravel right?
> > >
> > > So if I want a processor that has two 200 MHz cores and two separate
> float