Re: [Emc-users] [Fwd: Jog wheel ?]

[Gene Heskett]

On Friday 15 June 2007, Jeff Epler wrote:
>If it is actually being sent from the device, I'm sure the Linux kernel
>is suppressing the "relative axis changed by zero counts" message to
>hal_input.  If the OS didn't take care to do this (something that always
>makes sense with a device that is actually a relative axis) I'm sure it
>would work a tiny bit less poorly.
>
>Jeff

ISTR, some time back, seeing a thread on hidraw go by on lkml.  Perhaps it may 
have some clues?

-- 
Cheers, Gene
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Fascinating is a word I use for the unexpected.
-- Spock, "The Squire of Gothos", stardate 2124.5

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Re: [Emc-users] [Fwd: Jog wheel ?]

[Jeff Epler]

If it is actually being sent from the device, I'm sure the Linux kernel
is suppressing the "relative axis changed by zero counts" message to
hal_input.  If the OS didn't take care to do this (something that always
makes sense with a device that is actually a relative axis) I'm sure it
would work a tiny bit less poorly.

Jeff

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Re: [Emc-users] [Fwd: Jog wheel ?]

[John Prentice]

Jeff Comments below:

- Original Message - 
From: "Jeff Epler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)" 
Sent: Friday, June 15, 2007 5:48 AM
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] [Fwd: Jog wheel ?]


> Here at the CNC workshop I had an opportunity to plug in a device which
> identifies as
>I: Bus=0003 Vendor=0b33 Product=0020 Version=0117
>N: Name="Contour Design ShuttleXpress"
> The bottom of the device says
>Shuttle Xpress
>Model No. S-XPRS
>S/N: 0 0 4 7 x x x
> and there doesn't seem to be a date code.
>
> While this device is recognized by hal_input, it behaves very oddly--the
> way it operates is at odds with other similar devices.  I don't think
> this device would be useful with emc without device-specific hacks, and
> even then it would be problematic.  Read on if you'd like a longer
> explanation.
>


I got some good advice from Emc-developers earlier in the year about driving 
this device but never did manage to get it going with EMC2 because of the 
sort of strange numbers your test have just shown. However, although I think 
the hardware is idiosyncratic, it does generate sensible values for buttons, 
inner wheel and the spring loaded ring under the built-in HID driver of Win 
Xp  - two wrongs make a right do I hear :=) In particular you do get zero 
reports,

>  For instance, imagine you use the shuttle to
> jog in one of 8 slow speeds.  When you let go of the shuttle, it snaps
> back to the unreported "zero" position, but there's no report for that.
> There's no guarantee it reports "1" either.  So you can't tell for "a
> few seconds" (until a report of a held position would have arrived) that
> you've returned the shuttle to home.  Do you want your machine to keep
> jogging for 5 seconds after you stopped?  A resounding "No!".
>
> The jogwheel already isn't very useful due to its small number of
> reports per revolution (10), and the fact that 1 report out of 256 is
> lost (what's worse, the lost position will be at varying positions of
> the spinner since 256 is not a multiple of 12).
>
> As a result of this experience, I do not recommend the Shuttle Xpress to
> anyone who hopes to use it with emc2.

I must, however, disagree with this conclusion. If it could be interfaced it 
would be a valuable jogging tool.

If you program the 7 (forward and reverse) speeds of the ring in geometric 
progression to 100% of  rapid speed it turns out to be very ergonomic. You 
can jog end to end of a big table (or big Z) at high speed and end with a 
very gentle touch to the time honoured Rizla.

The inner wheel is then useful to put on a few thou of cut with a few 
clicks. I know of people who use the ring speeds for manual machining - say 
facing off stock with a fly cutter.

Two of the devices driving X and Z of a lathe are very good for tool setup 
work - quicker than conventional MPGs because of the geometric range of 
speeds - and perfectly usable for manual turning like facing off a length of 
stock.

Now the product is not IP65 protected and would not survive a pallet lifter 
driven over it but at the price and as it uses no precious I/O pins I 
believe it is worth the effort of getting it to work.

John Prentice 




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Re: [Emc-users] [Fwd: Jog wheel ?]

[Jeff Epler]

It seems that others were seeing this behavior from the shuttlexpress as
far back as 2004:
http://lists.ardour.org/pipermail/ardour-dev-ardour.org/2004-February.txt.gz

Jeff

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Re: [Emc-users] [Fwd: Jog wheel ?]

[Jeff Epler]

Here at the CNC workshop I had an opportunity to plug in a device which
identifies as 
I: Bus=0003 Vendor=0b33 Product=0020 Version=0117
N: Name="Contour Design ShuttleXpress"
The bottom of the device says
Shuttle Xpress
Model No. S-XPRS
S/N: 0 0 4 7 x x x
and there doesn't seem to be a date code.

While this device is recognized by hal_input, it behaves very oddly--the
way it operates is at odds with other similar devices.  I don't think
this device would be useful with emc without device-specific hacks, and
even then it would be problematic.  Read on if you'd like a longer
explanation.





In a traditional HID "relative" axis, each report holds the difference
between this report and the prior report.  So for instance on a USB
mouse with the wheel being repeatedly clicked in the second direction
the reports would look like "1, 1, 1, 1" with an occasional 2.  A report
of 0 is never given.  In a HID "absolute" axis, each report holds the
current position of the item.  So for instance on a USB joystick moving
an axis from left to right the reports might look like "-100, ..., -50,
..., 0, ..., 50, ..., 100" and on the release of the axis it would go to
"0" as it self-centers.

The ShuttleXpress reports both of its axes as relative, even though the
shuttle portion is absolute.  But in the case of both axes, the
reporting is of values appropriate to an absolute axis, not a relative
one.

So when you move the shuttle to the right, it gives a report of "1, 2,
3, 4, 5, 6, 7".  When you release it, it snaps back and may report an
intermediate value like "3", but never reports "0".  If you move the shuttle
part way to the right and rock it, it gives a report like "3, 4, 3, 4,
3, 4" and the counts quickly accumulate.  If you hold the shuttle in
place, it gives repeated reports like "7, 7, 7" every few seconds.
Since hal_input adds the reported value to the accumulated value, this
means the shown "counts" value has gone up to a value like 168 by now,
even though the current position of the shuttle is centered.

But it gets worse!  Rotate the jogwheel.  It behaves in the same way:
reporting 1, 2, 3, which again sums up to a wildly large "count".  There
are at least two more odd things.  After 255 or before 1, the next
detent gives you "no count" (i.e., zero).  And if both the shuttle and
the jog are displaced from the location they report as 0 counts, they
both count up like gangbusters.

All this works together to make the device completely unusable with
hal_input.  I spent a fair part of the evening trying to figure out a
way to turn the events I get from the Linux input driver into something
sane (even if it meant a separate HAL driver from hal_input), and I
can't figure that out yet.  For instance, imagine you use the shuttle to
jog in one of 8 slow speeds.  When you let go of the shuttle, it snaps
back to the unreported "zero" position, but there's no report for that.
There's no guarantee it reports "1" either.  So you can't tell for "a
few seconds" (until a report of a held position would have arrived) that
you've returned the shuttle to home.  Do you want your machine to keep
jogging for 5 seconds after you stopped?  A resounding "No!".

The jogwheel already isn't very useful due to its small number of
reports per revolution (10), and the fact that 1 report out of 256 is
lost (what's worse, the lost position will be at varying positions of
the spinner since 256 is not a multiple of 12).

As a result of this experience, I do not recommend the Shuttle Xpress to
anyone who hopes to use it with emc2.

Jeff

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Re: [Emc-users] [Fwd: Jog wheel ?]

[Kasparov, Aram]

Hi.

I am interesting if you will be at third CNC show in Galesburg Il. (Sometimes 
at June.)

I did already paid for jog wheel 
http://littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=2938 
<https://owa.kyosys.com/exchweb/bin/redir.asp?URL=http://littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=2938>
 

Switches I can get locally.

Thank you,

Aram K 



From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of Stephen Wille Padnos
Sent: Thu 3/8/2007 2:00 PM
To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] [Fwd: Jog wheel ?]



Andy Holcomb wrote:

>http://littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=2938
>
>Can EMC II use a jog wheel yet?
> 
>
Sure, but only if you want to use it for spindle speed override,
feedrate override, or axis jogging :)  It's probably possible to use one
for single-stepping through G-code as well, but I don't think anyone has
done a sample config for that yet.  (You still wouldn't be able to step
backwards, since EMC2 can't do that)

>If so what is required?
> 
>
All you need is a couple of extra input pins and some software
configuration work.  These can be on a parallel port or any other
hardware supported by EMC2.  You can use software pulse counting for a
handwheel, since the pulse rate will be low.  I don't see a sample
configuration that has jogwheel support in it, but I know there's
information in the wiki at <http://wiki.linuxcnc.org>.

>Andy
> 
>
If you need a hand, just email away or join us on IRC.
- Steve

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Re: [Emc-users] [Fwd: Jog wheel ?]

[John Prentice]

Anybody - greetings:

I have been trying to get a .rules file to work to rename my Shuttle device.

BUS=="USB", SYSFS{idProduct}=="0020", SYSFS{idVendor}=="0b33", MODE="660", 
GROUP="plugdev"

works fine. Device appears in /dev/input as mouse2 but with correct plugdev 
Group.

If I change the .rules file to

BUS=="USB", SYSFS{idProduct}=="0020", SYSFS{idVendor}=="0b33", MODE="660", 
GROUP="plugdev", NAME="xpress"

then the line seems to be ignored as device comes as mouse2 and group is 
root (as per default with no rule).

I have tried lots of different positions in the line for NAME=  - everything 
seems to make the line be invalid (ignored).

(a) It it illegal to name a USB device like this?
(b) Where might I expect to find the error logged (if anywhere)?

I can get away with the long name from the driver in /proc/bus/input/devices 
as I currently only have one device (a lathe would be good with two - one 
day)

===

Jeff Epler wrote:


>I fixed the bug that caused "-KRAL" to be required.

Thanks
>
> Though I don't generally use pdb, it seems to be possible:
>$ realtime start
>$ pdb hal_input -L keyboard
>> /home/jepler/emc2.head/bin/hal_input(18)?()
>-> import linux_event, sys, os, fcntl, hal, select, time, glob, fnmatch

I get that far but will have to do more work on my (very basic) Python 
skills to get it all running in context of EMC so I can see the events.

As a really crude approach I have tried some "print"s in the hal_input 
update() method.  Early tests suggest that the kernel driver (thinking 
device is a mouse) is giving funny events. But it needs some more testing 
(and research on what the kernel usb drivers do) :=)

John Prentice 




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Re: [Emc-users] [Fwd: Jog wheel ?]

[Jeff Epler]

I fixed the bug that caused "-KRAL" to be required.  

Though I don't generally use pdb, it seems to be possible:
$ realtime start
$ pdb hal_input -L keyboard
> /home/jepler/emc2.head/bin/hal_input(18)?()
-> import linux_event, sys, os, fcntl, hal, select, time, glob, fnmatch

Jeff

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Re: [Emc-users] [Fwd: Jog wheel ?]

[John Prentice]

Jeff

Thanks.   With  hal_input -KRAL Event3

I see the device, it has pins, the buttons go true and false (although the 
numbering is very odd) and the counts/positions move when you turn the 
Shuttle's "bits" - although in a very peculiar and interrelated way :=)

Lots of things to explore - whether I can get it recognised by its "Bus= " 
stuff, why the default with no -KRxx argument does not load any device and 
what events the blooming thing actually sends. But as it talks to me that is 
all possible.

I think I will try to modify and run your code more or less freestanding so 
I can use the Python debugger - and see what the device is actually sending.

Thanks again - watch this space (but not holding your breath)

John Prentice

- Original Message - 
From: "Jeff Epler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)" 
Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2007 4:43 PM
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] [Fwd: Jog wheel ?]


> hal_input will take exclusive control of the device when you put a "+"
> as the first character of the input specifier:
>loadusr hal_input +mouse2
> but hal_input won't work with /dev/input/mouseN -- only with
> /dev/input/eventN.  There should be an eventN device file created when
> you plug in your device.
>




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Re: [Emc-users] [Fwd: Jog wheel ?]

[Jeff Epler]

hal_input will take exclusive control of the device when you put a "+"
as the first character of the input specifier:
loadusr hal_input +mouse2
but hal_input won't work with /dev/input/mouseN -- only with
/dev/input/eventN.  There should be an eventN device file created when
you plug in your device.

Jeff

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Re: [Emc-users] [Fwd: Jog wheel ?]

[John Prentice]

Jeff

Thanks - it's tough becoming a newbie again :=)

I noticed that with a standard system plugging in the shuttle wheel gives a 
new input device "mouse2" and the jog ring works like the scroll wheel.

I set up the rule  (including == in the pattern!) and get no error message. 
However I get no new device other than mouse2

So I set up a shuttle.hal file with:loadusr hal_input mouse2  (it is in 
group plugdev)

and put HALFILE = shuttle.hal in my EMC2 .ini file

No errors starting EMC-AXIS (from Trunk) (although there are if one 
misspells as laodusr  - so I must be executing it :=)

The odd thing is I see no new Signals nor indeed any input component in 
Machine>Show Hal Configuration

Can you suggest: (a) how to stop the device being automatically seen as a 
mouse and (b) what tests I can do to see what I might be doing wrong with my 
hal_input

Thanks

John Prentice


- Original Message - 
From: "Jeff Epler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)" 
Sent: Friday, March 09, 2007 9:57 PM
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] [Fwd: Jog wheel ?]


> Based on the vendor and product you showed me, I would try creating
> /etc/udev/rules.d/shuttle.rules with the line
>SYSFS{idProduct}=="0020", SYSFS{idVendor}=="0b33", MODE="660", 
> GROUP="plugdev"
> then unplug and re-plug the device, and list the directory /dev/input to
> see if there is a device with group 'plugdev', which should be readable
> by your user.
>
> Then try
>loadusr hal_input ShuttleXPress
> and try 'show pin' to see what hal_input found
>
> You shouln't need a -ANYTHING flag.  The only real use for that is if
> you want to control keyboard LEDs but not use keyboard keys:
>loadusr hal_input -L keyboard
> (it looks like the documentation for -KRAL isn't quite right, aside from
> being confusing -- -K covers keys and buttons, contrary to what I wrote
> in the manpage)
>
> Jeff




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Re: [Emc-users] [Fwd: Jog wheel ?]

[Jeff Epler]

Based on the vendor and product you showed me, I would try creating
/etc/udev/rules.d/shuttle.rules with the line
SYSFS{idProduct}=="0020", SYSFS{idVendor}=="0b33", MODE="660", 
GROUP="plugdev"
then unplug and re-plug the device, and list the directory /dev/input to
see if there is a device with group 'plugdev', which should be readable
by your user.

Then try
loadusr hal_input ShuttleXPress
and try 'show pin' to see what hal_input found

You shouln't need a -ANYTHING flag.  The only real use for that is if
you want to control keyboard LEDs but not use keyboard keys:
loadusr hal_input -L keyboard
(it looks like the documentation for -KRAL isn't quite right, aside from
being confusing -- -K covers keys and buttons, contrary to what I wrote
in the manpage)

Jeff

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Re: [Emc-users] [Fwd: Jog wheel ?]

[John Prentice]

Jeff

Thanks for this suggestion. It shows the power of such a modular system - I 
am conditioned by too many special cases :=)

I was using EMC2 2.0 under Ubuntu so I decided it would be best to compile 
Trunk - just completed OK.

less on /proc/bus/input/devices has the Shuttle as:

I: Bus=0003 Vendor=0b33 Product=0020 Version=0117
N: Name="Contour Design ShuttleXPress"
P: Phys=usb-:00:1d.1-2/input0
S: Sysfs=/class/input/input6
H: Handlers=mouse2 event5
B: EV=7
B: KEY= 1fff 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
B: REL=180

I am struggling with the -KRAL switches and the Input Specification syntax.

How does -B for buttons fit in?

Could you give me an example of a suitable Input Spec to map my two HID axes 
and 5 buttons?

Similary I am in trouble with the udev. The udev manual pages are too 
general for me and I cannot see how to relate your SYSFS example in 
hal_input doc. to the data I have.

A bit of hand-holding would be much appreciated.

I will post a wiki page for others who expressed interest when I get it 
going.

Thanks

John Prentice

- Original Message - 
From: "Jeff Epler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)" 
Sent: Friday, March 09, 2007 1:56 PM
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] [Fwd: Jog wheel ?]


> John,
> I can't make any promises, but I believe that hal_input, which will be
> a part of emc 2.2, will support most HID devices recognized by Linux.
>
> How's your Linux and emc expertise level?  You should be able to try out
> this driver with emc 2.1 by copying a few files from the development
> version:
>hal_input.py (copy to /usr/bin/hal_input, and "chmod +x"):
> 
> http://cvs.linuxcnc.org/cvs/emc2/src/hal/user_comps/hal_input.py?rev=1.11;content-type=text%2Fplain
>linux_input.py (copy to /usr/lib/python2.4/site-packages/):
> 
> http://cvs.linuxcnc.org/cvs/emc2/lib/python/linux_event.py?rev=1.5&content-type=text/plain
>
> There is a manual page here:
>http://linuxcnc.org/docs/devel/html/man/man1/hal_input.1.html
>
> Once you've installed the driver, the trick is to first find out how to
> give the device proper permissions (section PERMISSIONS AND UDEV in the
> manual page), and second to find out how to tell hal_input to use that
> device (section INPUT SPECIFICATION in the manual page)
>
> Jeff




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Re: [Emc-users] [Fwd: Jog wheel ?]

[Gene Heskett]

On Friday 09 March 2007, John Prentice wrote:
>Hi,
>
>- Original Message -
>From: "Stephen Wille Padnos" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
>
>> You're probably thinking of the Griffin PowerMate:
>> 
>> It used to be available in black as well, but it looks like it isn't
>> any more.
>>
>> Although it's probably a quadrature encoder inside, I think it's only
>> 32 counts per rev (at 4x).  I believe that X (Linux) gets events like
>> a keyboard, so it may work with the input driver, possibly after some
>> modifications.  It has 5 basic operations: rotation CW or CCW, button
>> press (and release of course), and rotation CW/CCW while the button is
>> pressed.  It's not RT in any case, so it could be used with halui or a
>> GUI, but not as a jogwheel as Andy was wanting.
>
>and I believe the "encoder" is metallic contacts.
>
>If you want a very controllable movement for jogging to a "touch",
> rather than one click is a thou, for manual machining it is worth
> looking at:
>
>http://www.contourdesign.com/shuttlepro/shuttlexpress.htm
>
>5 buttons (axis selection?), a spring loaded ring with 7 steps each side
> of centre (continuous jog at 7 different speeds - make them geometric
> ratios), a centre "jog" wheel (coarse steps but fine for the last few
> thou).

Now that I may have, I have an editing controller that matches that 
description, made by panasonic for the dvc-pro stuffs.  Spring loaded, 
center off outside dial, and a continuous inner dial with a finger 
depression so you can spin it.  NDI how to go about interfaceing it with 
emc though, hints welcome obviously.

>I removed my "real" MPG from a mill in preference for this $60 device .
> You can whip from and to end of end to end of an axis at full rapid but
> slow to a kissing touch with great safety. IMO a case of not having to
> emulate how handles connected to the old racks of TTL controlled
> machines :=)
>
>Not done it with EMC2, but device is a well behaved HID (Vendor Id
> 0x0B33, Product Id 0x33) so it might not be too hard. Don't bother with
> the driver that comes with it (Win only I think anyhow). I would send
> someone $60 to buy a wheel if that got us a HAL module for it
> (seriously).
>
>John Prentice
>
And I'd go for another $50 myself.

>ps its brother Shuttle Pro has more buttons but I don't think I would
>remember which does what and no easy way to label them :=)
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: [Emc-users] [Fwd: Jog wheel ?]

[Jeff Epler]

John,
I can't make any promises, but I believe that hal_input, which will be
a part of emc 2.2, will support most HID devices recognized by Linux.

How's your Linux and emc expertise level?  You should be able to try out
this driver with emc 2.1 by copying a few files from the development
version:
hal_input.py (copy to /usr/bin/hal_input, and "chmod +x"):

http://cvs.linuxcnc.org/cvs/emc2/src/hal/user_comps/hal_input.py?rev=1.11;content-type=text%2Fplain
linux_input.py (copy to /usr/lib/python2.4/site-packages/):

http://cvs.linuxcnc.org/cvs/emc2/lib/python/linux_event.py?rev=1.5&content-type=text/plain

There is a manual page here:
http://linuxcnc.org/docs/devel/html/man/man1/hal_input.1.html

Once you've installed the driver, the trick is to first find out how to
give the device proper permissions (section PERMISSIONS AND UDEV in the
manual page), and second to find out how to tell hal_input to use that
device (section INPUT SPECIFICATION in the manual page)

Jeff

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Re: [Emc-users] [Fwd: Jog wheel ?]

[John Prentice]

Hi,

- Original Message - 
From: "Stephen Wille Padnos" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

> You're probably thinking of the Griffin PowerMate:
> 
> It used to be available in black as well, but it looks like it isn't any
> more.
>
> Although it's probably a quadrature encoder inside, I think it's only 32
> counts per rev (at 4x).  I believe that X (Linux) gets events like a
> keyboard, so it may work with the input driver, possibly after some
> modifications.  It has 5 basic operations: rotation CW or CCW, button
> press (and release of course), and rotation CW/CCW while the button is
> pressed.  It's not RT in any case, so it could be used with halui or a
> GUI, but not as a jogwheel as Andy was wanting.

and I believe the "encoder" is metallic contacts.

If you want a very controllable movement for jogging to a "touch", rather 
than one click is a thou, for manual machining it is worth looking at:

http://www.contourdesign.com/shuttlepro/shuttlexpress.htm

5 buttons (axis selection?), a spring loaded ring with 7 steps each side of 
centre (continuous jog at 7 different speeds - make them geometric ratios), 
a centre "jog" wheel (coarse steps but fine for the last few thou).

I removed my "real" MPG from a mill in preference for this $60 device . You 
can whip from and to end of end to end of an axis at full rapid but slow to 
a kissing touch with great safety. IMO a case of not having to emulate how 
handles connected to the old racks of TTL controlled machines :=)

Not done it with EMC2, but device is a well behaved HID (Vendor Id 0x0B33, 
Product Id 0x33) so it might not be too hard. Don't bother with the driver 
that comes with it (Win only I think anyhow). I would send someone $60 to 
buy a wheel if that got us a HAL module for it (seriously).

John Prentice

ps its brother Shuttle Pro has more buttons but I don't think I would 
remember which does what and no easy way to label them :=)




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Re: [Emc-users] [Fwd: Jog wheel ?]

[Jon Elson]

John Kasunich wrote:

>Jon Elson wrote:
>  
>
>>John Kasunich wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>The Pico systems boards (USC and UPC) have opto-22 modules on most of 
>>>their I/O, which isn't good for encoder signals.
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>>In fact, they do work.  You should be able to go to at least 100,000 
>>counts a second through the optocoupler - so it is definitely not the
>>limiting factor.  
>>
>>
>
>I thought opto-22 input modules came in 120V AC and 24V DC flavors?
>Encoder outputs are neither.  If there is a 5V input module then I stand 
>corrected.
>
>  
>
I have Opto-22 compatible OUTPUT positions on all the controller 
products (the PPMC
board set, and the USC and UPC boards.)  But, I have been using 
Fairchild H11A217D
optocouplers for the INPUTS.  They are not pluggable, and have a 
built-in isolated
~5 V power supply, so all you need is a contact closure.  They were 
intended for
limit and home switches, drive fault and E-stop relays, etc.  But, other 
than the
restriction that the driver can only sense them once per servo cycle, 
the inputs
should work for any digital signal, as long as it will pull the input to 
ext ground.
That's one of the catches, that the digital input ground is floating, so 
you have to
tie the ext. ground to the ground for the encoder.  And, the floating 
supply really
doesn't have any spare current to power an encoder.

Jon

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Re: [Emc-users] [Fwd: Jog wheel ?]

[John Kasunich]

Stephen Wille Padnos wrote:
> John Kasunich wrote:
> 
>> I thought opto-22 input modules came in 120V AC and 24V DC flavors?
>> Encoder outputs are neither.  If there is a 5V input module then I stand 
>> corrected.
>>  
>>
> Those are the outputs, not the inputs.  The inputs are just IC-based 
> optoisolators, and should work at many KHz.

Duh.  Sorry.

Regards,

John

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Re: [Emc-users] [Fwd: Jog wheel ?]

[Stephen Wille Padnos]

John Kasunich wrote:

>Jon Elson wrote:
>  
>
>>John Kasunich wrote:
>>
>>
>>>The Pico systems boards (USC and UPC) have opto-22 modules on most of 
>>>their I/O, which isn't good for encoder signals.
>>>  
>>>
>>In fact, they do work.  You should be able to go to at least 100,000 
>>counts a second through the optocoupler - so it is definitely not the
>>limiting factor.  
>>
>>
>
>I thought opto-22 input modules came in 120V AC and 24V DC flavors?
>Encoder outputs are neither.  If there is a 5V input module then I stand 
>corrected.
>  
>
Those are the outputs, not the inputs.  The inputs are just IC-based 
optoisolators, and should work at many KHz.

- Steve


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Re: [Emc-users] [Fwd: Jog wheel ?]

[John Kasunich]

Jon Elson wrote:
> John Kasunich wrote:
> 
>> The Pico systems boards (USC and UPC) have opto-22 modules on most of 
>> their I/O, which isn't good for encoder signals.
>>
> In fact, they do work.  You should be able to go to at least 100,000 
> counts a second through the optocoupler - so it is definitely not the
> limiting factor.  

I thought opto-22 input modules came in 120V AC and 24V DC flavors?
Encoder outputs are neither.  If there is a 5V input module then I stand 
corrected.

Regards,

John Kasunich



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Re: [Emc-users] [Fwd: Jog wheel ?]

[Jon Elson]

John Kasunich wrote:

>I need to type slower, or read before I hit send.
>
>John Kasunich wrote:
>
>  
>
>>Andy Holcomb wrote:
>>
>>
>>>http://littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=2938
>>>  
>>>
>
>Nice.  Pricey too...
>
>  
>
>>>Can EMC II use a jog wheel yet?
>>>  
>>>
>
>Yes.
>
>  
>
>>>If so what is required?
>>>  
>>>
>>A jog wheel.  The ability to count the pulses it makes.  Hardware pins 
>>to get the pulses into the system.  A few lines of HAL code to hook it up.
>>
>>The wheel you linked to has 40 counts per rev which is typical. 
>>
>>
>
>400, not 40
>  
>
OK, that makes a difference.  If it is a 100 cycle/rev encoder which 
will provide 400 counts/rev,
then you may not want to run it through the digital inputs of any of the 
Pico Systems products,
as it will get jumpy somewhere around 1 - 2 RPS, due to the 1000/sec 
sampling of the inputs
by the ppmc driver.  Hooking it through a spare encoder input would be 
fine, as the quadrature
transitions would be correctly counted, and the total position would be 
made available on a hal
pin 1000 times a second.  Otherwise, you could turn up the servo update 
rate or rig the jog
wheel through a second parallel port to the software encoder counter.

Jon

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Re: [Emc-users] [Fwd: Jog wheel ?]

[Jon Elson]

John Kasunich wrote:

>The Pico systems boards (USC and UPC) have opto-22 modules on most of 
>their I/O, which isn't good for encoder signals.
>
In fact, they do work.  You should be able to go to at least 100,000 
counts a second
through the optocoupler - so it is definitely not the limiting factor.  
Of course, the
computer's servo loop will not be reading the digital inputs anywhere 
near that
fast.  Normally, the digital inputs are only sampled at the servo update 
rate (this is
a driver design limitation) so an encoder shouldn't count over, say, 500 
counts a
second to avoid missed pulses.  With a 40 count/rev encoder, that would 
still
allow you to handle 10 RPS.

One thing is that the digital inputs are ISOLATED, so you have to have a 
common
ground between the encoder and the digital input ground.

Jon

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Re: [Emc-users] [Fwd: Jog wheel ?]

[Gene Heskett]

On Thursday 08 March 2007, Stephen Wille Padnos wrote:
>Gene Heskett wrote:
>>[snip]
>>
>>>If you rich and have three wheels, you can hook one to each axis
>>>permanently.
>>
>>Yeah, rich we aren't.  There is another product, whose link escapes me
>>ATM, with similar definition, but it can be had for as little as $29 &
>>ship, and has a USB output.  No idea how to drag that in and hook it up
>>to hal, but at that price it might be worth a look.  Internally it is a
>>quadrature system from the clues given.  A solid looking milled alu
>> knob of about 2" diameter, it seems like it would be suitable. I
>> thought I had it bookmarked but cannot find it now.  Me, goes off
>> muttering about the old mans stupidity for not bookmarking it.  I
>> recall I found it with a google search though, and its available from
>> several dealers who do business on the net at prices ranging up to
>> $59.95 US.  It didn't have the spinner, but that's fixable.  After
>> all, that is what we do isn't it?
>
>You're probably thinking of the Griffin PowerMate:
>
>It used to be available in black as well, but it looks like it isn't any
>more.

Yes, that's the one.  Obligatory comment about old farts and short term 
memory can be inserted here :)

>Although it's probably a quadrature encoder inside, I think it's only 32
>counts per rev (at 4x).  I believe that X (Linux) gets events like a
>keyboard, so it may work with the input driver, possibly after some
>modifications.  It has 5 basic operations: rotation CW or CCW, button
>press (and release of course), and rotation CW/CCW while the button is
>pressed.  It's not RT in any case, so it could be used with halui or a
>GUI, but not as a jogwheel as Andy was wanting.
>
Well, the usb would call it unreal time due to its lags, but I'd think it 
would be usable once one got used to the lag.  It should be good for fine 
tuning a cut by that last .0002".

>See you
>- Steve
>
>
>
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 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
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Re: [Emc-users] [Fwd: Jog wheel ?]

[Stephen Wille Padnos]

Gene Heskett wrote:

>[snip]
>  
>
>>If you rich and have three wheels, you can hook one to each axis
>>permanently.
>>
>>
>
>Yeah, rich we aren't.  There is another product, whose link escapes me 
>ATM, with similar definition, but it can be had for as little as $29 & 
>ship, and has a USB output.  No idea how to drag that in and hook it up 
>to hal, but at that price it might be worth a look.  Internally it is a 
>quadrature system from the clues given.  A solid looking milled alu knob 
>of about 2" diameter, it seems like it would be suitable. I thought I had 
>it bookmarked but cannot find it now.  Me, goes off muttering about the 
>old mans stupidity for not bookmarking it.  I recall I found it with a 
>google search though, and its available from several dealers who do 
>business on the net at prices ranging up to $59.95 US.  It didn't have 
>the spinner, but that's fixable.  After all, that is what we do isn't it?
>  
>
You're probably thinking of the Griffin PowerMate: 

It used to be available in black as well, but it looks like it isn't any 
more.

Although it's probably a quadrature encoder inside, I think it's only 32 
counts per rev (at 4x).  I believe that X (Linux) gets events like a 
keyboard, so it may work with the input driver, possibly after some 
modifications.  It has 5 basic operations: rotation CW or CCW, button 
press (and release of course), and rotation CW/CCW while the button is 
pressed.  It's not RT in any case, so it could be used with halui or a 
GUI, but not as a jogwheel as Andy was wanting.

See you
- Steve


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Re: [Emc-users] [Fwd: Jog wheel ?]

[Gene Heskett]

On Thursday 08 March 2007, John Kasunich wrote:
>Andy Holcomb wrote:
>> http://littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=2938
>
>Yes.
>
>> Can EMC II use a jog wheel yet?
>> If so what is required?
>
>A jog wheel.  The ability to count the pulses it makes.  Hardware pins
>to get the pulses into the system.  A few lines of HAL code to hook it
> up.
>
>The wheel you linked to has 40 counts per rev which is typical.

Mmm, the propaganda claims 100.

>Assuming you aren't going to spin it faster than 10 revs per second,
>that works out to a maximum of 4000 counts per cycle.  EMC2 can easily
>count that speed in software.  (The limit is probably more than twice
>that, even on a slow PC.)  So all you need is two free general purpose
>digital input pins.  Parport pins work fine, as do extra inputs from
>motenc or mesa cards, or a variety of other general digital input cards
>(8255 based, etc).
>
>The Pico systems boards (USC and UPC) have opto-22 modules on most of
>their I/O, which isn't good for encoder signals.  However, those boards
>have 4 encoder channels.  If you have a three axis mill, or a 2 axis
>lathe with spindle encoder, you should still have an encoder channel
>free to count the jog wheel.  Using a hardware counter to count 4000
>counts per second is overkill, but if its there, might as well use it.
>
>You can do a variety of things with the jogwheel.  AXIS provides HAL
>pins that can be used to make the wheel control whatever axis is
>selected in the GUI.  I'm not sure if the other GUIs can do that or not.
>  You can also select the axis to jog using onscreen buttons with pyVCP,
>or real buttons and/or selector switches.  You can also select different
>scale factors, again with onscreen buttons or real ones.  For example,
>you could select between 1.000 inch per rev (0.010 per click) and 0.01
>inch per rev (0.0001 per click).
>
>If you rich and have three wheels, you can hook one to each axis
>permanently.

Yeah, rich we aren't.  There is another product, whose link escapes me 
ATM, with similar definition, but it can be had for as little as $29 & 
ship, and has a USB output.  No idea how to drag that in and hook it up 
to hal, but at that price it might be worth a look.  Internally it is a 
quadrature system from the clues given.  A solid looking milled alu knob 
of about 2" diameter, it seems like it would be suitable. I thought I had 
it bookmarked but cannot find it now.  Me, goes off muttering about the 
old mans stupidity for not bookmarking it.  I recall I found it with a 
google search though, and its available from several dealers who do 
business on the net at prices ranging up to $59.95 US.  It didn't have 
the spinner, but that's fixable.  After all, that is what we do isn't it?

>Regards,
>
>John Kasunich
>
>
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Re: [Emc-users] [Fwd: Jog wheel ?]

[andyholcomb]

I will try that, thanks Steve

Andy

Stephen Wille Padnos wrote:

>Well, that's the easy part ;)
>
>Download the EMC2-Ubuntu liveCD and install away.  It's available at 
>.  The liveCD 
>has pretty big memory requirements - most people have found that you 
>need 256-512M RAM in the machine for the install.  You can go down to 
>128-256M after installing (the more the merrier though, as usual).
>
>- Steve
>
>Andy Holcomb wrote:
>
>  
>
>>Thanks for the help John, now all I need to do is get emc II up and 
>>running on my machine  :-)
>>
>>Andy
>>
>>
>
>[snip]
>
>-
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>  
>


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Re: [Emc-users] [Fwd: Jog wheel ?]

[Stephen Wille Padnos]

Well, that's the easy part ;)

Download the EMC2-Ubuntu liveCD and install away.  It's available at 
.  The liveCD 
has pretty big memory requirements - most people have found that you 
need 256-512M RAM in the machine for the install.  You can go down to 
128-256M after installing (the more the merrier though, as usual).

- Steve

Andy Holcomb wrote:

> Thanks for the help John, now all I need to do is get emc II up and 
> running on my machine  :-)
>
> Andy

[snip]

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Re: [Emc-users] [Fwd: Jog wheel ?]

[Andy Holcomb]

Thanks for the help John, now all I need to do is get emc II up and
running on my machine  :-)

Andy

John Kasunich wrote:

  Andy Holcomb wrote:
  
  
http://littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=2938

  
  
Yes.

  
  
Can EMC II use a jog wheel yet?
If so what is required?

  
  
A jog wheel.  The ability to count the pulses it makes.  Hardware pins 
to get the pulses into the system.  A few lines of HAL code to hook it up.

The wheel you linked to has 40 counts per rev which is typical. 
Assuming you aren't going to spin it faster than 10 revs per second, 
that works out to a maximum of 4000 counts per cycle.  EMC2 can easily 
count that speed in software.  (The limit is probably more than twice 
that, even on a slow PC.)  So all you need is two free general purpose 
digital input pins.  Parport pins work fine, as do extra inputs from 
motenc or mesa cards, or a variety of other general digital input cards 
(8255 based, etc).

The Pico systems boards (USC and UPC) have opto-22 modules on most of 
their I/O, which isn't good for encoder signals.  However, those boards 
have 4 encoder channels.  If you have a three axis mill, or a 2 axis 
lathe with spindle encoder, you should still have an encoder channel 
free to count the jog wheel.  Using a hardware counter to count 4000 
counts per second is overkill, but if its there, might as well use it.

You can do a variety of things with the jogwheel.  AXIS provides HAL 
pins that can be used to make the wheel control whatever axis is 
selected in the GUI.  I'm not sure if the other GUIs can do that or not. 
  You can also select the axis to jog using onscreen buttons with pyVCP, 
or real buttons and/or selector switches.  You can also select different 
scale factors, again with onscreen buttons or real ones.  For example, 
you could select between 1.000 inch per rev (0.010 per click) and 0.01 
inch per rev (0.0001 per click).

If you rich and have three wheels, you can hook one to each axis 
permanently.

Regards,

John Kasunich

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Re: [Emc-users] [Fwd: Jog wheel ?]

[Stephen Wille Padnos]

Andy Holcomb wrote:

>http://littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=2938
>
>Can EMC II use a jog wheel yet?
>  
>
Sure, but only if you want to use it for spindle speed override, 
feedrate override, or axis jogging :)  It's probably possible to use one 
for single-stepping through G-code as well, but I don't think anyone has 
done a sample config for that yet.  (You still wouldn't be able to step 
backwards, since EMC2 can't do that)

>If so what is required?
>  
>
All you need is a couple of extra input pins and some software 
configuration work.  These can be on a parallel port or any other 
hardware supported by EMC2.  You can use software pulse counting for a 
handwheel, since the pulse rate will be low.  I don't see a sample 
configuration that has jogwheel support in it, but I know there's 
information in the wiki at .

>Andy
>  
>
If you need a hand, just email away or join us on IRC.
- Steve

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Re: [Emc-users] [Fwd: Jog wheel ?]

[John Kasunich]

I need to type slower, or read before I hit send.

John Kasunich wrote:

> Andy Holcomb wrote:
>> http://littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=2938

Nice.  Pricey too...

>> Can EMC II use a jog wheel yet?

Yes.

>> If so what is required?
> 
> A jog wheel.  The ability to count the pulses it makes.  Hardware pins 
> to get the pulses into the system.  A few lines of HAL code to hook it up.
> 
> The wheel you linked to has 40 counts per rev which is typical. 

400, not 40

> If you rich and have three wheels, you can hook one to each axis 

If you _are_ rich


Regards,

John

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Re: [Emc-users] [Fwd: Jog wheel ?]

[John Kasunich]

Andy Holcomb wrote:
> http://littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=2938

Yes.

> Can EMC II use a jog wheel yet?
> If so what is required?

A jog wheel.  The ability to count the pulses it makes.  Hardware pins 
to get the pulses into the system.  A few lines of HAL code to hook it up.

The wheel you linked to has 40 counts per rev which is typical. 
Assuming you aren't going to spin it faster than 10 revs per second, 
that works out to a maximum of 4000 counts per cycle.  EMC2 can easily 
count that speed in software.  (The limit is probably more than twice 
that, even on a slow PC.)  So all you need is two free general purpose 
digital input pins.  Parport pins work fine, as do extra inputs from 
motenc or mesa cards, or a variety of other general digital input cards 
(8255 based, etc).

The Pico systems boards (USC and UPC) have opto-22 modules on most of 
their I/O, which isn't good for encoder signals.  However, those boards 
have 4 encoder channels.  If you have a three axis mill, or a 2 axis 
lathe with spindle encoder, you should still have an encoder channel 
free to count the jog wheel.  Using a hardware counter to count 4000 
counts per second is overkill, but if its there, might as well use it.

You can do a variety of things with the jogwheel.  AXIS provides HAL 
pins that can be used to make the wheel control whatever axis is 
selected in the GUI.  I'm not sure if the other GUIs can do that or not. 
  You can also select the axis to jog using onscreen buttons with pyVCP, 
or real buttons and/or selector switches.  You can also select different 
scale factors, again with onscreen buttons or real ones.  For example, 
you could select between 1.000 inch per rev (0.010 per click) and 0.01 
inch per rev (0.0001 per click).

If you rich and have three wheels, you can hook one to each axis 
permanently.

Regards,

John Kasunich

-
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