Re: [Emc-users] Bldc commutatation

[Gene Heskett]

On Tuesday 14 August 2018 23:54:16 jeremy youngs wrote:

> On Tue, Aug 14, 2018, 7:37 PM andy pugh  wrote:
> > On 15 August 2018 at 01:21, jeremy youngs  
wrote:
> > > What is the difference between ==> and => ?
> >
> > They don't do anything. You can leave them out.
>
> Sorry I should have given more information Andy , in the net command .
> As I understand it discerns flow ? But just 2 arguments will do the
> same , of course with net ?
>
> > > Also what command will show the pins of my current mesa 7i90
> >
> > configuration
> >
> > halcmd show pin
>
> I wasn't as clear on this as I could have been but I don't know the
> question I want to ask 😥😥😥 my 7i90 is fully functional , hooked to
> my optiplex 720 , there is no pi yet .

Aha! On the optiplex, you ARE using the parport interface of the 7i90. 
This will not work for the pi, and you will need to reprogram the 7i90 
with the same configuration, but with SPI as part of the filename, doing 
that on the optiplex. Once thats done and everything is rebooted, the 
card won't be seen by the optiplex, but will by the pi when the cableing 
is correct.

Jon, whats the url to find your little interface adapter pcb on OSHPark?

Jeremy will need that and 3 120 ohm chip resistors and the matching 
header connectors to hook the pi up to the 7i90.

> I found the pin information in the scrolling through halscope , with
> my config print I was able to look at existing Hal file and sort the
> pins , signals and parameters that I need to get together.

Good and I apologize for the confusion I caused by assuming you were 
actually running it on the pi. The optiplex and the parport this makes 
available is a different critter entirely. The files I sent will not run 
on the optiplex, but should run on a real pi.  The diff is the 
interface, and thats huge. Your card is presently setup with 
7i90_epp_rest_of_filename.bit, will need reprogrammed by mesaflash to a
7i90_spi_rest_of_filename.bit when you are ready to put it on the pi.

> Thank you 
> for your patience , I will return to this . My biggest issue was one
> of not knowing what the hm27i90 pins were named so I could net them to
> the right ones 😀😀😀. I will find success . Good day gents.
>
> > --
> > atp
> > "A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
> > designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
> > lunatics."
> > — George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1916
> >
> >
> > 
> >-- Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's
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-- 
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--
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 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

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Re: [Emc-users] Bldc commutatation

[jeremy youngs]

On Tue, Aug 14, 2018, 7:37 PM andy pugh  wrote:

> On 15 August 2018 at 01:21, jeremy youngs  wrote:
> > What is the difference between ==> and => ?
>
> They don't do anything. You can leave them out.
>

Sorry I should have given more information Andy , in the net command . As I
understand it discerns flow ? But just 2 arguments will do the same , of
course with net ?

>
> > Also what command will show the pins of my current mesa 7i90
> configuration
>
> halcmd show pin
>
I wasn't as clear on this as I could have been but I don't know the
question I want to ask 😥😥😥 my 7i90 is fully functional , hooked to my
optiplex 720 , there is no pi yet .
I found the pin information in the scrolling through halscope , with my
config print I was able to look at existing Hal file and sort the pins ,
signals and parameters that I need to get together . Thank you for your
patience , I will return to this . My biggest issue was one of not knowing
what the hm27i90 pins were named so I could net them to the right ones
😀😀😀. I will find success . Good day gents.

>
> --
> atp
> "A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
> designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
> lunatics."
> — George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1916
>
>
> --
> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
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Re: [Emc-users] Bldc commutatation

[Gene Heskett]

On Tuesday 14 August 2018 20:36:02 andy pugh wrote:

> On 15 August 2018 at 01:21, jeremy youngs  wrote:
> > What is the difference between ==> and => ?
>
> They don't do anything. You can leave them out.
>
> > Also what command will show the pins of my current mesa 7i90
> > configuration
>
> halcmd show pin

But Andy, I don't think that will work for the 7i90 stuffs until he 
actually has the pi and the 7i90 talking to each other. I've not been 
able to ascertain that yet. He may see other pins in that report, but 
not the 7i90.

-- 
Cheers, Gene Heskett
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

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Re: [Emc-users] Bldc commutatation

[Gene Heskett]

On Tuesday 14 August 2018 20:21:42 jeremy youngs wrote:

> What is the difference between ==> and => ?

In a .hal file, they are ignored I'm told as they are put there for the 
human readers to see which direction the signal is flowing.

In an xml file, 
 is the ending, and can span any number of 
lines
As for the ==>, or <==, I don't recall using it.

> Also what command will show the pins of my current mesa 7i90
> configuration ?

That will be shown in the terminal LCNC is run in, when you get the 
config correct. That includes the short jumper with terminations from 
the pi 3b header to the 26 pin header on the end of the 7i90.

> I need to know what those pins are , so I can reassign them to A-VALUE
> and B-value . I understand the name doesn't matter generally , but the
> 2 pins already exist in this configuration and I don't know how to get
> the information from my config .
> Thank you

And you are trying to short circuit things, get the pi actually talking 
to the 7i90 first. Then you'll add this stuff.

I am not fam enough with bldc motors to help much there. Anybody who is, 
feel free to play froggy and jump right in here.

What I would do is strip that .hal file I you sent by starting a new one 
and putting only the stuff you see loadrt-ing the card and driver for 
starters.  And addf the card read, then the two watchdog functions and 
addf the card write.  Make them members of the servo-thread. 

Make that 'register' the card, which will output all that, copy/paste it 
to a file for future reference and once thats working, add the rest of 
the controls needed as you go addf-ing them after the watchdog stuff and 
before the card write.

-- 
Cheers, Gene Heskett
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

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Re: [Emc-users] Bldc commutatation

[andy pugh]

On 15 August 2018 at 01:21, jeremy youngs  wrote:
> What is the difference between ==> and => ?

They don't do anything. You can leave them out.

> Also what command will show the pins of my current mesa 7i90 configuration

halcmd show pin

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1916

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Re: [Emc-users] Bldc commutatation

[jeremy youngs]

What is the difference between ==> and => ?
Also what command will show the pins of my current mesa 7i90 configuration
?
I need to know what those pins are , so I can reassign them to A-VALUE and
B-value . I understand the name doesn't matter generally , but the 2 pins
already exist in this configuration and I don't know how to get the
information from my config .
Thank you
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Re: [Emc-users] Bldc commutatation

[jeremy youngs]

On Tue, Aug 14, 2018, 12:26 PM Gene Heskett  wrote:

> On Tuesday 14 August 2018 11:46:38 jeremy youngs wrote:
>
> > On Tue, Aug 14, 2018, 3:28 AM andy pugh  wrote:
> > > On 14 August 2018 at 02:52, jeremy youngs 
> wrote:
> > > > Now it gives this
> > >
> > > The error is "setp needs 2 arguments, only one given" and tells you
> > > that the problem is on line 15 in qi.hal
> > >
> > > Line 15 in qi.hal says "setp hm2_7i90.0.pwmgen.00.scale"
> > > But has no value provided to set the scale to.
> > >
> > > Is this directly proportional ? I.e a value of 1 is 1% duty cycle
> > > max , 99 would be 99% and 100 = 100?
> >
> > I ask this also because my h-bridge ( driving x,y,z all need 99% max
> > as they are charge pumped) and can this scale be set at each axis ?
>
> Sure. Running my 1hp+ spindles with Jon's (Pico Systems) pwm-servo amps,
> which have a same requirements, thats part of my hal files. So is
> restarting the "boot" up of these amps everytime they are restarted from
> zero speed.
> Great , that is a very simple solution even I can follow
>

> Also , if I cd linuxcnc , servo Matson ( machine name ) will that load
> > the hostmot2 7i90 configuration? Then I can look at the hm2/7i90 pins
> > to properly net them . I took the 7i90 lines from the original servo
> > Matson Hal file , so they would be on the same pins as my 7i90 is set
> > up for ( the pwm and enable pin) will I have to change the pin
> > definition of the enable bit to pwmgen and will it need an address
> > different than pwmgen 02? Pwmgen 02 is net to A-out and it seems ok
> > with that .I assigned a value to scale and it then balked at line 18
> > needs 2 arguments , the issue for me is I don't know which hm2 7i90
> > pin to net to b-value I have changed a/b out back to their original
> > syntax of value , it was ok with the a-value assignment but did not
> > like the b-value assignment to the enable pin .
>
> The enable pin in a lot of this defaults to enabled if not connected at
> the amplifiers input. You don't feed it a pulse in any event. Its either
> on or off.
>
> The pin is already assigned in mess firmware , I do not want to use it as
> an enable , I want to use it for pwm , I need to assign it a pwm function
> but am unsure how to do that , and I have misplaced the script to allow me
> to see the mess configuration , even though you can name a pin whatever you
> want , I really want b-value to come out as a pwm on the existing enable
> pin and I am amiff as to how to actually do this , once the scale was
> assigned it was happy with the A-VALUE assignment.
>
> If handled correctly, this can make your H-bridges into a full, 4
> quadrant driver, meaning it will stop as quickly as it starts,
> recovering the energy by dumping it back into the psu, so direction
> reverses are done using the full power of the motor. My G0704 can
> reverse from 2k revs in the direction its running to 2k revs in the
> opposite direction in around 400 milliseconds. In fact I have a limit3
> in that path to slow it so the current limit 'chirp' from the driver is
> much less noticeable. The recovered energy from the stop is used to
> start it up in the reverse direction, so the psu voltage actually rises
> above the filter caps ratings while the slowdown is taking place, then
> returns to the normal run voltage once its back up to speed in the other
> direction. The caps in the psu won't fuss as the very momentary
> overvoltage just tends to re-form the caps for full rated voltage.
>
So far bench testing has shown this to be in fact very stiff ,

>
> So the which critter is which confusion remains. Would you like to see
> the stuff I'm running? It obviously won't run your bldc motors but might
> be informational enough to help. I won't clutter the list with 3000 LOC,
> but they'll send as PM to you. Maybe gzipped. Just ask.
>
> Yes, please . Also please don't zip it . As I only have my phone for
> access . Thank you
>
> --
> Cheers, Gene Heskett
> --
> "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
>  soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
> -Ed Howdershelt (Author)
> Genes Web page 
>
>
> --
> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
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Re: [Emc-users] Bldc commutatation

[Gene Heskett]

On Tuesday 14 August 2018 11:46:38 jeremy youngs wrote:

> On Tue, Aug 14, 2018, 3:28 AM andy pugh  wrote:
> > On 14 August 2018 at 02:52, jeremy youngs  
wrote:
> > > Now it gives this
> >
> > The error is "setp needs 2 arguments, only one given" and tells you
> > that the problem is on line 15 in qi.hal
> >
> > Line 15 in qi.hal says "setp hm2_7i90.0.pwmgen.00.scale"
> > But has no value provided to set the scale to.
> >
> > Is this directly proportional ? I.e a value of 1 is 1% duty cycle
> > max , 99 would be 99% and 100 = 100?
>
> I ask this also because my h-bridge ( driving x,y,z all need 99% max
> as they are charge pumped) and can this scale be set at each axis ?

Sure. Running my 1hp+ spindles with Jon's (Pico Systems) pwm-servo amps, 
which have a same requirements, thats part of my hal files. So is 
restarting the "boot" up of these amps everytime they are restarted from 
zero speed.
 
> Also , if I cd linuxcnc , servo Matson ( machine name ) will that load
> the hostmot2 7i90 configuration? Then I can look at the hm2/7i90 pins
> to properly net them . I took the 7i90 lines from the original servo
> Matson Hal file , so they would be on the same pins as my 7i90 is set
> up for ( the pwm and enable pin) will I have to change the pin
> definition of the enable bit to pwmgen and will it need an address
> different than pwmgen 02? Pwmgen 02 is net to A-out and it seems ok
> with that .I assigned a value to scale and it then balked at line 18
> needs 2 arguments , the issue for me is I don't know which hm2 7i90
> pin to net to b-value I have changed a/b out back to their original
> syntax of value , it was ok with the a-value assignment but did not
> like the b-value assignment to the enable pin .

The enable pin in a lot of this defaults to enabled if not connected at 
the amplifiers input. You don't feed it a pulse in any event. Its either 
on or off.

If handled correctly, this can make your H-bridges into a full, 4 
quadrant driver, meaning it will stop as quickly as it starts, 
recovering the energy by dumping it back into the psu, so direction 
reverses are done using the full power of the motor. My G0704 can 
reverse from 2k revs in the direction its running to 2k revs in the 
opposite direction in around 400 milliseconds. In fact I have a limit3 
in that path to slow it so the current limit 'chirp' from the driver is 
much less noticeable. The recovered energy from the stop is used to 
start it up in the reverse direction, so the psu voltage actually rises 
above the filter caps ratings while the slowdown is taking place, then 
returns to the normal run voltage once its back up to speed in the other 
direction. The caps in the psu won't fuss as the very momentary 
overvoltage just tends to re-form the caps for full rated voltage.

...

So the which critter is which confusion remains. Would you like to see 
the stuff I'm running? It obviously won't run your bldc motors but might 
be informational enough to help. I won't clutter the list with 3000 LOC, 
but they'll send as PM to you. Maybe gzipped. Just ask.

-- 
Cheers, Gene Heskett
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

--
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Re: [Emc-users] Bldc commutatation

[jeremy youngs]

Also , this should all run and operate from terminal when we get it right ,
correct?
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Re: [Emc-users] Bldc commutatation

[jeremy youngs]

On Tue, Aug 14, 2018, 3:28 AM andy pugh  wrote:

> On 14 August 2018 at 02:52, jeremy youngs  wrote:
>
> > Now it gives this
>
> The error is "setp needs 2 arguments, only one given" and tells you
> that the problem is on line 15 in qi.hal
>
> Line 15 in qi.hal says "setp hm2_7i90.0.pwmgen.00.scale"
> But has no value provided to set the scale to.
>
> Is this directly proportional ? I.e a value of 1 is 1% duty cycle max , 99
> would be 99% and 100 = 100?

I ask this also because my h-bridge ( driving x,y,z all need 99% max as
they are charge pumped) and can this scale be set at each axis ?

Also , if I cd linuxcnc , servo Matson ( machine name ) will that load the
hostmot2 7i90 configuration? Then I can look at the hm2/7i90 pins to
properly net them . I took the 7i90 lines from the original servo Matson
Hal file , so they would be on the same pins as my 7i90 is set up for ( the
pwm and enable pin) will I have to change the pin definition of the enable
bit to pwmgen and will it need an address different than pwmgen 02? Pwmgen
02 is net to A-out and it seems ok with that .I assigned a value to scale
and it then balked at line 18 needs 2 arguments , the issue for me is I
don't know which hm2 7i90 pin to net to b-value I have changed a/b out back
to their original syntax of value , it was ok with the a-value assignment
but did not like the b-value assignment to the enable pin .
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Re: [Emc-users] Bldc commutatation

[Dave Cole]

On 8/14/2018 10:02 AM, andy pugh wrote:

So, we have all lost interest in commutation now and I can stop
following this thread?
Sorry, I think I assisted in sending this message thread into the 
ditch.  :-/

I suspect the original issue still exists.

Dave

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Re: [Emc-users] Bldc commutatation

[andy pugh]

So, we have all lost interest in commutation now and I can stop
following this thread?

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1916

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Re: [Emc-users] Bldc commutatation

[Gene Heskett]

On Tuesday 14 August 2018 07:43:54 Dave Cole wrote:

> Gene,
>
> Although Google gathers more data that I would like, they really
> aren't that hard to deal with.
> Click on this link.    This is a picture in my Google drive folder.
>
> https://drive.google.com/open?id=1raznXmbhijqdhgkBom66q5j_-krhqbZMZQ
>
Which looks like it ought to be ok up to 4 or 5 hundred lbs.

> I use Google drive all of the time, and it never seems to be an issue.
>
> FWIW, that is a newly crimped fitting for the lifelines on my boat.
>
> Although they have layers of security, I have a business email that
> someone has been trying to break into for the last few weeks from
> South America.

All my email is right here, and behind dd-wrt, with passwds long enough 
to discourage anything but a key logger, 20 chars absolute min length. I 
used to watch dd-wrt's logs, but that got boring. In 15 years of running 
dd-wrt as a guard dog, the only one thats come in was asked to, and 
given the credentials.

> I have no idea why, but Google has been fending off the attacks very
> effectively.  So I am ok with their security.

Well, I think they were broken into once, years ago now, and whoever got 
in didn't get much. Unlike yahoo, who seems like they upload stuff for 
up to 5 million folks every 6 months or so. Marissa doesn't believe in 
high priced tech help.  And it shows, I'm on several yahoo hosted 
mailing lists, and am getting 3 to 7 copies of everything, sent out at 
2-5 minute intervals. Started about a month ago, and no signs of it 
abating.

> Dave
>
Anyway, I think we are started in getting Jeremy running. But I'm not the 
best one to post tuts, and I know it. And I  know nothing about bldc 
motors and their drivers. And he seems intent on crippling the pi by 
exporting the gui.  I tried, and it literally crawled, seconds behind 
the actual machines movement. The pi can run its framebuffer video at 7 
or 8 frames a second and thats tolerable. I've rebuilt the spindle bore 
bent, using itself to refresh the MT5 bore, so now an er-40 adapter runs 
within a thou 3 to 4" away from the collet. I've refaced the backing 
plates and redrilled the 3 jaw version so its running true (for a 3 jaw 
Bison) and have done the same with a 4 jaw now.  Both have been equipt 
with clamps to keep them from unscrewing on a quick as it can spindle 
reversal, so I'm making progress at restoring its precision. I think the 
spindle was bent when at some point way back in time, it fell over, 
landing  on the compound hard enough to total it, and a 30 lb bison's 
weight was enough to put about a 4 thou bend in the spindle from that 
sudden stop. LinuxCNC doesn't need a compound, so thats now a nice 
looking carved block of cast iron I did on The Little Monster 7x12, 
relatively easy once I'd done the same thing to TLM. And I've since put 
tapered gibs in TLM. Whole new machine in performance now. Makes 
anything I can swing in its 5" 4 jaw. I used it, and the micromill doing 
EDM to make parts to cnc the sheldon.

Really accurate tailstock alignment, and bed wear are the remaining yet 
to be completed items on the Sheldon. Bed wear I can use LCNC to 
compensate for to a large degree by starting with accurate measurements, 
which I'll have to make stuff to do as all I have ATM is a couple of 
accurate dials.

But right now I need to get dressed and run a small trash trailer to the 
landfill, about a 35 or 40 mile round trip. And some kin is driving in 
from 430 miles north today, maybe I can beat them back. Busy busy.

-- 
Cheers, Gene Heskett
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

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Re: [Emc-users] Bldc commutatation

[Dave Cole]

Gene,

Although Google gathers more data that I would like, they really aren't 
that hard to deal with.

Click on this link.    This is a picture in my Google drive folder.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1raznXmbhijqdhgkBom66q5j_-krhqbZMZQ

I use Google drive all of the time, and it never seems to be an issue.

FWIW, that is a newly crimped fitting for the lifelines on my boat.

Although they have layers of security, I have a business email that 
someone has been trying to break into for the last few weeks from South 
America.
I have no idea why, but Google has been fending off the attacks very 
effectively.  So I am ok with their security.


Dave


On 8/14/2018 2:42 AM, Gene Heskett wrote:

On Monday 13 August 2018 22:24:26 Dave Cole wrote:


Is not you.  The links are wrong.

Is this intentional on the part of google? Answer is obvious.


In Google drive, if you right click the document and click share link,
it will copy the share link to the clipboard.
Then paste into your email.

That sounds like its up to Jeremy to fix.  And he can fix it a lot
quicker using a pastebin.

I was clicking on the link, which ran into googles login, and all
references to the link I clicked on were erased by the multiple steps
the login takes, and it then took me to my accounts initialization,
which because of all the personal info needed to do that, was never
completed. These bastards thirst for your personal data they can sell
knows no bounds. Screw em and the camel that rode in on them.

Jeremy: all they are really interested in is a "captive user" just like
Microsoft. Don't let them lock you up like that.


Dave

On 8/13/2018 10:06 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:

On Monday 13 August 2018 21:52:44 jeremy youngs wrote:

I loadrt hostmot2

And 7i90 at the top so it can find the 7i90 pins ( it was failing
to do that )
Now it gives this , I'm close , I can feel it , but I'm also
ignorant ant trying , lol. Sometimes that's all a steer can do to .
terminal qi.jpg


qi.hal.jpg


I have a google account, but they have put so damned much security
in front of these files that I cannot access them. Even after they
sent me an access code, I guess its only good for my stuff. So find
someplace to put them besides google please.  pastebin.ca comes to
mind.


Thank you
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Re: [Emc-users] Bldc commutatation

[Gene Heskett]

On Monday 13 August 2018 23:03:51 jeremy youngs wrote:

> What does # before line mean ?

Thats an unread by LCNC comment line. Put there to prompt my fading 
memory as to what I was doing.
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--
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 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

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Re: [Emc-users] Bldc commutatation

[Gene Heskett]

On Monday 13 August 2018 22:58:48 jeremy youngs wrote:

> *bldc.**N**.encoder-offset* s32 rw [if personality & 0x0A] (default:
> *0*)
>
> The offset, in encoder counts, between the motor electrical zero and
> the encoder zero modulo the number of counts per electrical revolution
>
A 1000 line ABX endoder has 4000 edges, which is whats counted. This I 
take it is how they sync the bldc drive? I've not dealt with those 
motors, mine are all steppers so I'm learning too. This would mean you'd 
need to re-calibrate that anytime the encoder shaft setscrews are 
loosened. I assume that the index pulse s/b very close to the motors 
power up zero?  And that this value is the error from the ideal 
condition?
>
> I believe it's this line , my encoder is set to 1000 ppr , 1/2
> revolution per electrical revolution = 2000 counts  I don't know
> why it stacked up like this
>
> On Mon, Aug 13, 2018, 9:45 PM jeremy youngs  
wrote:
> > Try this
> > https://photos.app.goo.gl/wk5hmCqTuujFq9vc8
> > Thank you

I need to go get a bit of sleep, we'll have company for an hour or so 
today, kin driving in from New York to see the missus.

-- 
Cheers, Gene Heskett
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

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Re: [Emc-users] Bldc commutatation

[andy pugh]

On 14 August 2018 at 02:52, jeremy youngs  wrote:

> Now it gives this

The error is "setp needs 2 arguments, only one given" and tells you
that the problem is on line 15 in qi.hal

Line 15 in qi.hal says "setp hm2_7i90.0.pwmgen.00.scale"
But has no value provided to set the scale to.

-- 
atp
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designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
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Re: [Emc-users] Bldc commutatation

[Gene Heskett]

On Monday 13 August 2018 22:45:08 jeremy youngs wrote:

> Try this
> https://photos.app.goo.gl/wk5hmCqTuujFq9vc8
> Thank you

A bit smaller but worked fine.

-- 
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--
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 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

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Re: [Emc-users] Bldc commutatation

[Gene Heskett]

On Tuesday 14 August 2018 03:40:02 jeremy youngs wrote:

> The real solution Gene , is a pi , running a network , wifi to my
> phone so I don't have to take pics of screen shots. So , even after I
> added link sharing and did pastebin you cannot open them ?

The google shareing fixed it right up, never saw the pastebin links. I 
don't have the pi's radio enabled as thats a door into my local net the 
neighbors like to use 80GB one month before I noticed it.. So my network 
is all on cat5.

Go ahead and install a desktop, like XFCE on the pi, that should include 
a screen snapshot utility that you can use to export those snapshots.
Heres on of my screenshots, but it was captured from an ssh-Y login, 
using this machines ksnapshot:

Didn't work, I'll have to attach it. Lots of jpeg damage as its really 
shrunk, but you get the idea.

-- 
Cheers, Gene Heskett
--
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 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 
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Re: [Emc-users] Bldc commutatation

[Gene Heskett]

On Monday 13 August 2018 21:52:44 jeremy youngs wrote:

> I loadrt hostmot2
>
> And 7i90 at the top so it can find the 7i90 pins ( it was failing to
> do that )
> Now it gives this , I'm close , I can feel it , but I'm also ignorant
> ant trying , lol. Sometimes that's all a steer can do to .
>   terminal qi.jpg
> w?usp=drivesdk>
>
>   qi.hal.jpg
> w?usp=drivesdk>
>
You've not set a value for "scale" in line 15.

This is often done by setting it in the .ini file, which you can reuse 
once per axis and referencing it in the hal file like this, which 
turning into a how-to:

setp hm2_[HOSTMOT2](BOARD).0.stepgen.03.position-scale  [JOINT_0]SCALE

Where HOSTMOT2 and BOARD are also obtained from the bottom (usually) of 
the ini file.

Mine for that looks like this at the end of the .ini file:

[HOSTMOT2]
DRIVER=   hm2_rpspi
BOARD =   7i90
CONFIG=   "num_encoders=4 num_pwmgens=1 num_stepgens=4"

But that [HOSTMOT2] could be anyplace in the ini file as long as another 
[name] terminated that stanza.

And using the same lookup mechanism; Where [JOINT_0] is the JOINT_# 
stanza in the ini file, then it will search down that list for SCALE = 
and use that value. So you can have multiple SCALE's, one per [JOINT_#]

In my case that scale line in the ini under the [JOINT_0] is:
# scale is 200 steps/rev * 5 revs/inch times driver microstepping,
Which IIRC is 8. and its a 1/2 belt drive reduction from motor to a teeny 
ballscrew for X, 8mm or so, actually derived from fine tuning it with a 
dial indicator.
SCALE=   25685.

16 or 32 would move smoother, but then the rapids would exceed the motor 
drivers's opto input speeds. The opto's are usable to about 200 
kilohertz. Besides, thats equ to .389332295114 inch per step, "good 
enough for the girls I go with" :)

2 of those 4 encoders are reading the hand dials on the apron, and 4 
stepgens is because that 7i90 has blown gates and 2 of them don't work.
 
This is more than just fixing your instant problem, but also a how-to. I 
hope its not confusing the issue. You will also need a lengthy stanza of 
addf's in order to install these logic bits and pieces you've loadrt'd 
into the threads execution loop.  The addf's should be in the order of 
the signal as its processed, so that a fully processed signal read at 
the top arrives at the cards write line in one thread execution. Mix 
them up and the latency's will eat your lunch.

That addf chain starts like this:
addfhm2_[HOSTMOT2](BOARD).0.readservo-thread
addfwd-bite-reset   servo-thread
addfwatchdog-reset  servo-thread
everything else goes in here, and this is last:
addfhm2_[HOSTMOT2](BOARD).0.write   servo-thread

Then the first setp or net statements.  Keeps the .hal file a little 
neater. :) The order of addf's is the important detail.

-- 
Cheers & thanks for fixing google, Gene Heskett
--
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 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

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Re: [Emc-users] Bldc commutatation

[jeremy youngs]

The real solution Gene , is a pi , running a network , wifi to my phone so
I don't have to take pics of screen shots. So , even after I added link
sharing and did pastebin you cannot open them ?
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Re: [Emc-users] Bldc commutatation

[Gene Heskett]

On Monday 13 August 2018 22:24:26 Dave Cole wrote:

> Is not you.  The links are wrong.

Is this intentional on the part of google? Answer is obvious.

> In Google drive, if you right click the document and click share link,
> it will copy the share link to the clipboard.
> Then paste into your email.

That sounds like its up to Jeremy to fix.  And he can fix it a lot 
quicker using a pastebin.

I was clicking on the link, which ran into googles login, and all 
references to the link I clicked on were erased by the multiple steps 
the login takes, and it then took me to my accounts initialization, 
which because of all the personal info needed to do that, was never 
completed. These bastards thirst for your personal data they can sell 
knows no bounds. Screw em and the camel that rode in on them.

Jeremy: all they are really interested in is a "captive user" just like 
Microsoft. Don't let them lock you up like that.

> Dave
>
> On 8/13/2018 10:06 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > On Monday 13 August 2018 21:52:44 jeremy youngs wrote:
> >> I loadrt hostmot2
> >>
> >> And 7i90 at the top so it can find the 7i90 pins ( it was failing
> >> to do that )
> >> Now it gives this , I'm close , I can feel it , but I'm also
> >> ignorant ant trying , lol. Sometimes that's all a steer can do to .
> >> terminal qi.jpg
> >>  >>vie w?usp=drivesdk>
> >>
> >>qi.hal.jpg
> >>  >>vie w?usp=drivesdk>
> >
> > I have a google account, but they have put so damned much security
> > in front of these files that I cannot access them. Even after they
> > sent me an access code, I guess its only good for my stuff. So find
> > someplace to put them besides google please.  pastebin.ca comes to
> > mind.
> >
> >> Thank you
> >> ---
> >>---  Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the
> >> world's most engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org!
> >> http://sdm.link/slashdot
> >> ___
> >> Emc-users mailing list
> >> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>
> --
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-- 
Cheers, Gene Heskett
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

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Re: [Emc-users] Bldc commutatation

[jeremy youngs]

Sorry, this line

*bldc.**N**.drive-offset* float rw (default: *0*)

The angle, in degrees, applied to the commanded angle by the drive in
degrees. This value is only used during the homing sequence of drives with
incremental encoder feedback. It is used to back-calculate from commanded
angle to actual phase angle. It is only relevant to drives which expect
rotor-angle input rather than phase-angle demand. Should be 0 for most
drives.

*bldc.**N**.output-pattern* u32 rw

On Mon, Aug 13, 2018, 10:03 PM jeremy youngs  wrote:

> What does # before line mean ?
>
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Re: [Emc-users] Bldc commutatation

[jeremy youngs]

What does # before line mean ?
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Re: [Emc-users] Bldc commutatation

[jeremy youngs]

*bldc.**N**.encoder-offset* s32 rw [if personality & 0x0A] (default: *0*)

The offset, in encoder counts, between the motor electrical zero and the
encoder zero modulo the number of counts per electrical revolution


I believe it's this line , my encoder is set to 1000 ppr , 1/2 revolution
per electrical revolution = 2000 counts  I don't know why it stacked up
like this

On Mon, Aug 13, 2018, 9:45 PM jeremy youngs  wrote:

> Try this
> https://photos.app.goo.gl/wk5hmCqTuujFq9vc8
> Thank you
>
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Re: [Emc-users] Bldc commutatation

[jeremy youngs]

Try this
https://photos.app.goo.gl/wk5hmCqTuujFq9vc8
Thank you
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Re: [Emc-users] Bldc commutatation

[jeremy youngs]

On Mon, Aug 13, 2018, 9:09 PM Gene Heskett  wrote:

> On Monday 13 August 2018 21:52:44 jeremy youngs wrote:
>
> > I loadrt hostmot2
> >
> > And 7i90 at the top so it can find the 7i90 pins ( it was failing to
> > do that )
> > Now it gives this , I'm close , I can feel it , but I'm also ignorant
> > ant trying , lol. Sometimes that's all a steer can do to .
> >   terminal qi.jpg
> >  >w?usp=drivesdk>
> >
> >   qi.hal.jpg
> >  >w?usp=drivesdk>
> >
> I have a google account, but they have put so damned much security in
> front of these files that I cannot access them. Even after they sent me
> an access code, I guess its only good for my stuff.
> --
> I just turned link sharing on , manually , I thought I had it set on when
> I uploaded them. I am try to figure out how to load a pic to paste in now.
> An rpi is on the short list so I can get WiFi from my phone , I'll post
> pastebin when I figure that out, but you should be able to view them now.
> Thank you
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Re: [Emc-users] Bldc commutatation

[Dave Cole]

Is not you.  The links are wrong.
In Google drive, if you right click the document and click share link, 
it will copy the share link to the clipboard.

Then paste into your email.

Dave

On 8/13/2018 10:06 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:

On Monday 13 August 2018 21:52:44 jeremy youngs wrote:


I loadrt hostmot2

And 7i90 at the top so it can find the 7i90 pins ( it was failing to
do that )
Now it gives this , I'm close , I can feel it , but I'm also ignorant
ant trying , lol. Sometimes that's all a steer can do to .
   terminal qi.jpg


   qi.hal.jpg



I have a google account, but they have put so damned much security in
front of these files that I cannot access them. Even after they sent me
an access code, I guess its only good for my stuff. So find someplace to
put them besides google please.  pastebin.ca comes to mind.
  

Thank you
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Re: [Emc-users] Bldc commutatation

[Gene Heskett]

On Monday 13 August 2018 21:52:44 jeremy youngs wrote:

> I loadrt hostmot2
>
> And 7i90 at the top so it can find the 7i90 pins ( it was failing to
> do that )
> Now it gives this , I'm close , I can feel it , but I'm also ignorant
> ant trying , lol. Sometimes that's all a steer can do to .
>   terminal qi.jpg
> w?usp=drivesdk>
>
>   qi.hal.jpg
> w?usp=drivesdk>
>
I have a google account, but they have put so damned much security in 
front of these files that I cannot access them. Even after they sent me 
an access code, I guess its only good for my stuff. So find someplace to 
put them besides google please.  pastebin.ca comes to mind.
 
> Thank you
> --
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> most engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
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 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

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Re: [Emc-users] Bldc commutatation

[jeremy youngs]

I loadrt hostmot2
>
And 7i90 at the top so it can find the 7i90 pins ( it was failing to do
that )
Now it gives this , I'm close , I can feel it , but I'm also ignorant ant
trying , lol. Sometimes that's all a steer can do to .
  terminal qi.jpg


  qi.hal.jpg


Thank you
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Re: [Emc-users] Bldc commutatation

[andy pugh]

On 13 August 2018 at 15:34, jeremy youngs  wrote:
> Got the pin naming figure out , now to assign the pins to mesa card. I'm
> rather unclear about that , I would like them to come out to the pwm/
> direction pins currently assigned on 7i90

That is the only ones it makes sense to assign to.

bldc.0.A-value => hm2_7i90.0.pwmgen.00.value
bldc.0.A-on => hm2_5i25.0.pwmgen.00.enable

>  On reversing , does bldc swap u,v,w or does it invert the sine
> wave?

It does neither, it changes the direction in which the resultant
magnetic field is rotating.

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1916

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Re: [Emc-users] Bldc commutatation

[jeremy youngs]

Got the pin naming figure out , now to assign the pins to mesa card. I'm
rather unclear about that , I would like them to come out to the pwm/
direction pins currently assigned on 7i90 I think just copy and paste out
of current 7i90 config to the bldc config then attempt a start and see if
it goes . On reversing , does bldc swap u,v,w or does it invert the sine
wave? If it inverts then my pwm should be set to type 2? Correct?
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Re: [Emc-users] Bldc commutatation

[andy pugh]

On 13 August 2018 at 01:54, jeremy youngs  wrote:
> At 4.2 hal tutorial, connect pins to signals , the bldc docs don't give any
> signals , are there none to be net commanded ?

Signals are something that you make yourself. There are _no_
predefined signals in LinuxCNC.
The stepconf and pncconf wizards use a consistent set, but those can
be freely renamed if you want.

Think of signals as wire colours. There are some vague standards, but
if you want to use purple for +240V and red for GND it will all still
work.
Similarly you can connect a signal called coolant-temperature to
stepgen.0.step and the data on that signal will be X steps.

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1916

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Re: [Emc-users] Bldc commutatation

[jeremy youngs]

Bldc cfg=qi built , I don't get how to assign the Pins to the mesa card .
I found nothing in the 30 odd printed pages of hall tutorial that I have
will go to website and see if I can find clarification.
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Re: [Emc-users] Bldc commutatation

[jeremy youngs]

At 4.2 hal tutorial, connect pins to signals , the bldc docs don't give any
signals , are there none to be net commanded ?


>
>
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Re: [Emc-users] Bldc commutatation

[jeremy youngs]

On Sun, Aug 12, 2018, 7:13 PM andy pugh  wrote:

> On 12 August 2018 at 23:47, jeremy youngs  wrote:
>
> > There are a few other questions I have . I would like to loadrt cfg=ngiiq
>
> ngiiq makes no sense. You can't have gray-coded quadrature. And why
> two indexes?
>

Motors without Hall sensors may be homed in synchronous/direct mode. The
better of these options is to home to the encoder zero using the *iq* config
parameter. When the *init* pin goes high the motor will rotate (in a
direction determined by the *rev* pin) until the encoder indicates an
index-latch (the servo thread runs too slowly to rely on detecting an
encoder index directly). If there is no encoder index or its location
relative to motor zero can not be found, then an alternative is to use
*magnetic* homing using the *q*config. In this mode the motor

>
> > but it won't do that but I think adding this thread is my current hurdle.
>
> You don't need to add any threads, they will already be there
>
Addf for bldc , the function and syntax finally occurred to me , and I have
the bldc component on a 100 thread .

>
> >  and will it be able to align with only 2 sinewaves
> > being controlled . And what to do with the extra pin
>
> You can just ignore the extra pin.
>
> I am very glad to hear that


>
> But you do need some way to convert the numerical value from the bldc
> component into a variable voltage on a hardware pin.
>
>
> https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.com%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F171992353893
>
I have 2 of these

Gone to get something to eat , then to step 4

> atp
>



"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
> designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
> lunatics."
> — George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1916
>
>
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Re: [Emc-users] Bldc commutatation

[andy pugh]

On 12 August 2018 at 23:47, jeremy youngs  wrote:

> There are a few other questions I have . I would like to loadrt cfg=ngiiq

ngiiq makes no sense. You can't have gray-coded quadrature. And why
two indexes?

> but it won't do that but I think adding this thread is my current hurdle.

You don't need to add any threads, they will already be there.

>  and will it be able to align with only 2 sinewaves
> being controlled . And what to do with the extra pin

You can just ignore the extra pin.

But you do need some way to convert the numerical value from the bldc
component into a variable voltage on a hardware pin.

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1916

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Re: [Emc-users] Bldc commutatation

[jeremy youngs]

>
> For driving a bare H-bridge
>
Thank you Andy.

I am here

Let’s see if that worked:
Show Threads

halcmd: show thread

Realtime Threads:
 Period  FP Name   ( Time, Max-Time )
 999855  YES   test-thread (0,0 )

It did. The period is not exactly 1,000,000 ns because of hardware
limitations, but we have a thread that runs at approximately the correct
rate, and which can handle floating point functions. The next step is to
connect the function to the thread:
Add Function

halcmd: addf siggen.0.update test-thread

Up till now, we’ve been using *halcmd* only to look at the HAL. However,
this time we used the *addf* (add function) command to actually change
something in the HAL. We told *halcmd* to add the function *siggen.0.update* to
the
  ngi/iq.jpg

It will run at cfg=nqi , when I addf I get this.
There are a few other questions I have . I would like to loadrt cfg=ngiiq
but it won't do that but I think adding this thread is my current hurdle. I
also will need to edit poles count and I'm curious as to what the reversing
scheme looks like , and will it be able to align with only 2 sinewaves
being controlled . And what to do with the extra pin
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Re: [Emc-users] Bldc commutatation

[andy pugh]

On 12 August 2018 at 20:52, jeremy youngs  wrote:
> *B* Bit level outputs. Either 3 or 6 logic-level outputs indicating which
> high or low gate drivers on an external drive should be used
>
> I don't quite follow this , define please

For driving a bare H-bridge.

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1916

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Re: [Emc-users] Bldc commutatation

[Gene Heskett]

On Saturday 11 August 2018 23:40:37 Jon Elson wrote:

> On 08/11/2018 08:03 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > On Saturday 11 August 2018 20:14:46 Jon Elson wrote:
> >> On 08/11/2018 03:37 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> >>> On Saturday 11 August 2018 15:29:43 andy pugh wrote:
>  On 11 August 2018 at 20:11, Gene Heskett
> 
>   wrote:
> > Where can I find a tut on how the resolver works?
> 
>  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resolver_(electrical)
> >>>
> >>> Quite simplified, covers the basics but makes little or no
> >>> mention of the
> >>> resolvers speed limits. So in both cases, the encoder is
> >>> king, and much
> >>> cheaper to implement.
> >>>
> >>> Thanks Andy.
> >>
> >> Analog Devices 2S1200 will track a two-pole resolver to
> >> 60,000 RPM (1000 RPS).
> >>
> >> Jon
> >
> > And the heat sink and fans are how big?
>
> The 2S1200 chip is CMOS, and runs completely cold.  Don't
> know about the 60K RPM motor.
> We have a thing that spins a sample in an MRI magnet field
> at work at 300K RPM (5000 RPS).
> it is a tiny ceramic thing with notches in it, it forms an
> air bearing and an air jet shoots at the notches to spin in
> like a turbine.  CRAZY technology.

Air bearings are nice. Run forever with no wear, if the air is truly 
clean.

> Jon

Dentists have been doing that at 150k revs for what, 30 years? :)

-- 
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--
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 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

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Re: [Emc-users] Bldc commutatation

[Gene Heskett]

On Sunday 12 August 2018 05:08:37 andy pugh wrote:

> On 12 August 2018 at 02:01, Gene Heskett  wrote:
> >> Resolvers are absolute and much tougher.
> >
> > It appears that Omron's use of precision bearings seems to
> > addressing the toughness aspect.
>
> Now fill your optical encoder with coolant and see how it goes.
>
> I may be sounding like a bit of a resolver fanboi, but that is because
> I am. I have even taken off an encoder to fit a resolver on one of my
> lathe servos.
>
> With a resolver that perfectly matches the motor it makes BLDC
> commutation very easy too. On the Z servo of my lathe absolutely all
> that is needed is:
>
> net z-angle hm2_5i24.0.resover.01.angle => hm2_5i24.0.8i20.0.1.angle
> net z-pid pid.1.out => hm2_5i25.0.8i20.0.1.current

I am probably a poor judge of that as my servo experience is not in the 
machine shop. I've quite some experience tuning servo's in broadcast 
gear, intending to play a tape while keeping the output within 5 ns of 
house time. Ampex, in the VR-1200, was the only maker that "got it 
right" so that could be done in about half an hour on a totalled diddled 
with machine. But they only tried for about 2 u-sec mechanical accuracy 
at the video out, the rest was done electronicly with varactor 
controlled delay lines which could get the off tape color burst to 
within 5ns by the 3rd of 8 cycles of color burst. There were still some 
mechanical residual errors that could cause the colors to shift in phase 
from the just corrected left side of the screen to the right side of the 
screen 50 some u-secs later, but that was eventually solved on later 
machines by servoing the shoe height based on the initial error of the 
next color burst. The shoe is a vacuum pumped tape holder that brought 
to tape to presumably the exact same radius of the head tips as they 
wore in service. A rate of wear highly determined by the environment, 
cooler and drier were better. Heads could wear about 1.75 thou, and head 
hardness determined how much they charged an hour.

Nebraska ETV, (where I spent about 8 years of my broadcasting time) since 
they have 2 time zones, built their delay center with 3 such machines 
(sold for about $125k/ea in those days, late 60's) in a clean room whose 
air was both dried and cooled to about 50F and precipitron cleaned, and 
a roll of blank tape went in and was continually reused until trimming 
the damaged ends made it too short to use anymore. Those machines were 
initially setup with soft heads rated for 500 hours use, so the 
projected cost/hour was around $1.50 US. But with cold dry clean air, 
the first head failure was at just over 7000 hours, and was a solder 
joint in the internal rotary transformer, (the head wheel has 4 tips, 
and is spun at 14400 rpms) which was fixed N.C. and returned as there 
was still a nearly a thou of tip left. So a 500 hour head actually ran 
for just under 10k hours. Over the life of those machines that saved 3x 
the cost of the clean room including the energy bill.  There's a lesson 
in that.

No, I don't know much about servo's in dirty shops.

-- 
Cheers, Gene Heskett
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

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Re: [Emc-users] Bldc commutatation

[jeremy youngs]

*B* Bit level outputs. Either 3 or 6 logic-level outputs indicating which
high or low gate drivers on an external drive should be used

I don't quite follow this , define please
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Re: [Emc-users] Bldc commutatation

[andy pugh]

On 12 August 2018 at 02:01, Gene Heskett  wrote:

>> Resolvers are absolute and much tougher.
>
> It appears that Omron's use of precision bearings seems to addressing the
> toughness aspect.

Now fill your optical encoder with coolant and see how it goes.

I may be sounding like a bit of a resolver fanboi, but that is because
I am. I have even taken off an encoder to fit a resolver on one of my
lathe servos.

With a resolver that perfectly matches the motor it makes BLDC
commutation very easy too. On the Z servo of my lathe absolutely all
that is needed is:

net z-angle hm2_5i24.0.resover.01.angle => hm2_5i24.0.8i20.0.1.angle
net z-pid pid.1.out => hm2_5i25.0.8i20.0.1.current

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1916

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Re: [Emc-users] Bldc commutatation

[Jon Elson]

On 08/11/2018 08:03 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:

On Saturday 11 August 2018 20:14:46 Jon Elson wrote:


On 08/11/2018 03:37 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:

On Saturday 11 August 2018 15:29:43 andy pugh wrote:

On 11 August 2018 at 20:11, Gene Heskett

 wrote:

Where can I find a tut on how the resolver works?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resolver_(electrical)

Quite simplified, covers the basics but makes little or no
mention of the
resolvers speed limits. So in both cases, the encoder is
king, and much
cheaper to implement.

Thanks Andy.

Analog Devices 2S1200 will track a two-pole resolver to
60,000 RPM (1000 RPS).

Jon

And the heat sink and fans are how big?

The 2S1200 chip is CMOS, and runs completely cold.  Don't 
know about the 60K RPM motor.
We have a thing that spins a sample in an MRI magnet field 
at work at 300K RPM (5000 RPS).
it is a tiny ceramic thing with notches in it, it forms an 
air bearing and an air jet shoots at the notches to spin in 
like a turbine.  CRAZY technology.


Jon

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Re: [Emc-users] Bldc commutatation

[Gene Heskett]

On Saturday 11 August 2018 20:14:46 Jon Elson wrote:

> On 08/11/2018 03:37 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > On Saturday 11 August 2018 15:29:43 andy pugh wrote:
> >> On 11 August 2018 at 20:11, Gene Heskett
> >>
> >>  wrote:
> >>> Where can I find a tut on how the resolver works?
> >>
> >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resolver_(electrical)
> >
> > Quite simplified, covers the basics but makes little or no
> > mention of the
> > resolvers speed limits. So in both cases, the encoder is
> > king, and much
> > cheaper to implement.
> >
> > Thanks Andy.
>
> Analog Devices 2S1200 will track a two-pole resolver to
> 60,000 RPM (1000 RPS).
>
> Jon

And the heat sink and fans are how big?
>
>
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--
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 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

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Re: [Emc-users] Bldc commutatation

[Gene Heskett]

On Saturday 11 August 2018 17:02:49 andy pugh wrote:

> On 11 August 2018 at 21:37, Gene Heskett  wrote:
> > Quite simplified, covers the basics but makes little or no mention
> > of the resolvers speed limits. So in both cases, the encoder is
> > king, and much cheaper to implement.
>
> Resolvers are absolute and much tougher.

It appears that Omron's use of precision bearings seems to addressing the 
toughness aspect. Mine, on the rear of the spindle motor with as high as 
a nominally 14/1 speed, seems to be bulletproof of anything but a 
setscrew in the drive untightened from the last re-assembly. I haven't 
tried it, but with the index still coming from the spindle, I'd imagine 
I can orient the spindle for a tool change to well with a degree. 
Meaning its absolute once an index has been seen after I change gears. 
And with the same type of logic chain as the tach and pid correction is 
done, either gear should be more than accurate enough to allow the next 
r8 to slide in and engage its drive pin. mpja has a small motor with an 
8" or so length of travel that should have the moxie to lower an r8, 
another smaller one to swing it halfway, then raise it to the top and 
swing it on over to the carousel and lower it into and empty socket 
there, a third motor moves the carousel to the next tool needed, engages 
it in the transfer arm, lifts it out of the carousel, swings back 
halfway, runs to the bottom of its travel, swings under the spindle, 
then lifts the new tool into the spindle, turning on the rattle wrench 
to loosen the drawbar, and tighten it again at the correct times.

First thing I'll need is a big sheet of 1/2" alu plate, bolted to the 
back of the post, to mount the bearings for both the carousel, and the 
transfer arm, shaft and serving as a reaction anchor for the motors that 
move stuff.

Oh, and another, shorter motorized screw anchored to the top of the post 
to lift the rattle wrench out of drawbar engagement. Or a fixed mount 
that engages when the Z is raised to the top of the post. That would 
only cost me the top half inch of Z, and I could lose that unless the 
drill is too long. So that shortcut is likely ruled out.

Thinking out loud...  Time to see if I can find some decently hard 1/2" 
thick sheet alu. And ask mpja just how much travel that particular 
motor/screw has since the little flyer doesn't say. And see how many 
outputs I have left on a 5i25's P2. Might have to spend another $200 for 
another 7i90HD & 3 ea 7i42TA's in order to get enough i in the i/o. In 
fact I'm sure of that.

> As for speed limits, that really only comes down to excitation
> frequency.

And the a/d conversions. High resolution takes time. And dual slope for 
accuracy is likely waaay too slow.

-- 
Cheers, Gene Heskett
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

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Re: [Emc-users] Bldc commutatation

[Jon Elson]

On 08/11/2018 03:37 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:

On Saturday 11 August 2018 15:29:43 andy pugh wrote:

On 11 August 2018 at 20:11, Gene Heskett 
 wrote:

Where can I find a tut on how the resolver works?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resolver_(electrical)
Quite simplified, covers the basics but makes little or no 
mention of the
resolvers speed limits. So in both cases, the encoder is 
king, and much

cheaper to implement.

Thanks Andy.

Analog Devices 2S1200 will track a two-pole resolver to 
60,000 RPM (1000 RPS).


Jon



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Re: [Emc-users] Bldc commutatation

[Jon Elson]

On 08/11/2018 02:29 PM, andy pugh wrote:
On 11 August 2018 at 20:11, Gene Heskett 
 wrote:



Where can I find a tut on how the resolver works?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resolver_(electrical)

Also, you can look at the Analog Devices 2S1200 chip, which 
is one classical way to get info from a resolver.


Jon



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Re: [Emc-users] Bldc commutatation

[jeremy youngs]

On Sat, Aug 11, 2018, 4:09 PM andy pugh  wrote:

>
> Yes, in "a" mode the bldc component can be used to convert resolver
> angle to commutation signals.
>


Sweet
>


Did your motor and drive start off life together?

No , I totally lucked into this motor from my favorite surplus outlet at
$200 to my door. I have swapped spindle motors 4 times in 2 years searching
for more power at liw speed. I figure at 6 hp , and 37.5 nm it ought to do
well. First I bought the wrong drive , then I bought the amt 31 encoder,
harness And programming cable only to find out that I did not need
bidirectional u,v,w signal for that drive.
I bought 2 wsdi bpu s3 32 30 drives 3 months ago for almost nothing. I have
verified these will function with sinusoidal commutatation by using 2 legs
of an old synchronous motor I had , I was also able to spin it with the
communication encoder , although I never got it stable , and I again
believe bilateral outpur us the issue. As I'm swinging an 8 inch facemill
the added torque of sinusoidal drive is very appealing.
Of note on the wsdi drive , I would have started with trying to get these
functional but it took me 3 months to get documentation .


If so, I would
> expect the resolvers to connect to the drive and for the drive to use
> the resolvers for commutation.
>
> My other possibilitiy is an amc resolver interface drive , it's around
> $400 so not in the near future
>
> > Correct me if I'm wrong been hashing docs in my spare time.
> > 1 open terminal , start hal session
> > 2 load bldc n qhi ??
>
> Not QHI if you don't have Hall sensors.
>
> > I seen an 8i20 confirmation on the forum , could I start with that ,
> > globally replace 8i20 with 7i90 ?
>
> No, the 8i20 is a motor driver, the 7i90 is an IO card.
>
> I will give it a shot sometime in the next 24
>
>
> --
>

atp
> "A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
> designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
> lunatics."
> — George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1916
>
>
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Re: [Emc-users] Bldc commutatation

[Eric Keller]

On Sat, Aug 11, 2018 at 4:37 PM Gene Heskett  wrote:

>
> Quite simplified, covers the basics but makes little or no mention of the
> resolvers speed limits. So in both cases, the encoder is king, and much
> cheaper to implement.
>
> I only have resolvers because I got them used, so encoders aren't always
cheaper.  STMBL reads resolvers. I have some motors I considered converting
to encoders, but that doesn't make sense now.  But resolvers have certainly
fallen out of favor from their peak. I'm sure they aren't going away.

I have some motors with three phase resolvers, apparently used for
commutation and position.
Eric Keller
Boalsburg, Pennsylvania
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Re: [Emc-users] Bldc commutatation

[andy pugh]

On 11 August 2018 at 21:41, jeremy youngs  wrote:
> 7i49, budget don't allow for it for a few weeks . I am busy in the shop
> with big jobs , yes I have contemplated the 7i49 . Can the communication
> signal be derived from the 7i49 ? If so then it's likely that will be my
> eventuality.

Yes, in "a" mode the bldc component can be used to convert resolver
angle to commutation signals.

Did your motor and drive start off life together? If so, I would
expect the resolvers to connect to the drive and for the drive to use
the resolvers for commutation.

> Correct me if I'm wrong been hashing docs in my spare time.
> 1 open terminal , start hal session
> 2 load bldc n qhi ??

Not QHI if you don't have Hall sensors.

> I seen an 8i20 confirmation on the forum , could I start with that ,
> globally replace 8i20 with 7i90 ?

No, the 8i20 is a motor driver, the 7i90 is an IO card.

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1916

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Re: [Emc-users] Bldc commutatation

[andy pugh]

On 11 August 2018 at 21:37, Gene Heskett  wrote:

> Quite simplified, covers the basics but makes little or no mention of the
> resolvers speed limits. So in both cases, the encoder is king, and much
> cheaper to implement.

Resolvers are absolute and much tougher.
As for speed limits, that really only comes down to excitation frequency.

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1916

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Re: [Emc-users] Bldc commutatation

[jeremy youngs]

7i49, budget don't allow for it for a few weeks . I am busy in the shop
with big jobs , yes I have contemplated the 7i49 . Can the communication
signal be derived from the 7i49 ? If so then it's likely that will be my
eventuality.

Correct me if I'm wrong been hashing docs in my spare time.
1 open terminal , start hal session
2 load bldc n qhi ??
Assign pins u,v to the pwm and direction pins
Write and wait till it works then save, copy and paste to hal file ?

I seen an 8i20 confirmation on the forum , could I start with that ,
globally replace 8i20 with 7i90 ? I would like to get this close this
weekend and contact kollmorgen to get the proper communication scheme and
what phase angle is needed for this motor .
Thank you
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Re: [Emc-users] Bldc commutatation

[Gene Heskett]

On Saturday 11 August 2018 15:29:43 andy pugh wrote:

> On 11 August 2018 at 20:11, Gene Heskett  wrote:
> > Where can I find a tut on how the resolver works?
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resolver_(electrical)

Quite simplified, covers the basics but makes little or no mention of the 
resolvers speed limits. So in both cases, the encoder is king, and much 
cheaper to implement.

Thanks Andy.

-- 
Cheers, Gene Heskett
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

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Re: [Emc-users] Bldc commutatation

[andy pugh]

On 11 August 2018 at 20:11, Gene Heskett  wrote:

> Where can I find a tut on how the resolver works?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resolver_(electrical)

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1916

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Re: [Emc-users] Bldc commutatation

[Ken Strauss]

I was also curious and found
https://www.motioncontroltips.com/faq-why-are-so-many-designers-replacing-re
solvers-with-encoders/

> -Original Message-
> From: Gene Heskett [mailto:ghesk...@shentel.net]
> Sent: Saturday, August 11, 2018 3:12 PM
> To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Bldc commutatation
>
> On Saturday 11 August 2018 15:03:28 andy pugh wrote:
>
> > On 11 August 2018 at 19:48, jeremy youngs  wrote:
> > > I am planning on ignoring them at this time . I have a cui encoder
> > > that can go on it.
> >
> > Does the budget extend to a 7i49?
> >
> > You can probably use a pair of 7i49 analogue outputs per drive to
> > create the two phase voltages. (and use the inputs to read the
> > resolvers)
>
> Kind of off topic for this thread, but:
>
> Where can I find a tut on how the resolver works?
>
> Theory, and how they maintain an absolute position, that sort of thing.
>
>
> --
> Cheers, Gene Heskett
> --
> "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
>  soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
> -Ed Howdershelt (Author)
> Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>
>
>

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Re: [Emc-users] Bldc commutatation

[Gene Heskett]

On Saturday 11 August 2018 15:03:28 andy pugh wrote:

> On 11 August 2018 at 19:48, jeremy youngs  wrote:
> > I am planning on ignoring them at this time . I have a cui encoder
> > that can go on it.
>
> Does the budget extend to a 7i49?
>
> You can probably use a pair of 7i49 analogue outputs per drive to
> create the two phase voltages. (and use the inputs to read the
> resolvers)

Kind of off topic for this thread, but:

Where can I find a tut on how the resolver works?

Theory, and how they maintain an absolute position, that sort of thing.


-- 
Cheers, Gene Heskett
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

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Re: [Emc-users] Bldc commutatation

[andy pugh]

On 11 August 2018 at 19:48, jeremy youngs  wrote:
> I am planning on ignoring them at this time . I have a cui encoder that can
> go on it.

Does the budget extend to a 7i49?

You can probably use a pair of 7i49 analogue outputs per drive to
create the two phase voltages. (and use the inputs to read the
resolvers)

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1916

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Re: [Emc-users] Bldc commutatation

[jeremy youngs]

I am planning on ignoring them at this time . I have a cui encoder that can
go on it.

On Sat, Aug 11, 2018, 1:24 PM andy pugh  wrote:

> On 10 August 2018 at 23:11, jeremy youngs  wrote:
> > Good day gents. Trying to get a handle on sinusoidal commutatation. I
> need
> > 2 pins 0-5 volt 120 degrees out of phase to commutate my drive .
> > http://www.linuxcnc.org/docs/html/man/man9/bldc.9.html#OPERATING%20MODES
> > I find this in the docs , and am curious if the 7i90 can be coaxed to do
> > this and I don't necessarily know where to begin. My motor is a
> kollmorgen
> > eb 404 , with resolver and no Halls
>
>
> How are you reading the resolvers?
> (Or are you ignoring the reseovers)
>
> --
> atp
> "A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
> designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
> lunatics."
> — George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1916
>
>
> --
> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
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Re: [Emc-users] Bldc commutatation

[andy pugh]

On 10 August 2018 at 23:11, jeremy youngs  wrote:
> Good day gents. Trying to get a handle on sinusoidal commutatation. I need
> 2 pins 0-5 volt 120 degrees out of phase to commutate my drive .
> http://www.linuxcnc.org/docs/html/man/man9/bldc.9.html#OPERATING%20MODES
> I find this in the docs , and am curious if the 7i90 can be coaxed to do
> this and I don't necessarily know where to begin. My motor is a kollmorgen
> eb 404 , with resolver and no Halls


How are you reading the resolvers?
(Or are you ignoring the reseovers)

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1916

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