Re: [Emc-users] Running PathPilot on non-Tormach Machines

[andrew beck]

And I have several CNC machines here for testing.

If you guys need someone to test stuff

One if them is a linear rail machine that really really feels the lack in
the current TP so would be good to see the difference

On Thu, 2 Feb 2023, 06:51 John Dammeyer,  wrote:

> I've just been emailed that my second BoB has been shipped.  Once that
> arrives I have:
> Pi4 + Mesa 7i92H + 2xBoB + power supplies.
> I'd also be willing to test, assuming I can be sent an img file to do a
> stock newbie type installation for an open loop stepper controlled CNC
> router or a mill.
>
> I'd use an existing hal/ini file combination and make whatever changes are
> required for the Tormach based install.  I'd look at using the I/O modeled
> after the image for the Clearpath CNC
> https://www.centroidcnc.com/centroid_diy/acorn_cnc_controller.html
> But create an image with the components I'm using.
> John
>
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Sam Sokolik [mailto:samco...@gmail.com]
> > Sent: January-31-23 7:43 AM
> > To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> > Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Running PathPilot on non-Tormach Machines
> >
> > I would certainly go back into testing mode if Rob merged the TP
> changes..
> > :)  That is stuff you can setup and let run..
> >
> > sam
> >
> > On Tue, Jan 31, 2023 at 7:05 AM andy pugh  wrote:
> >
> > > On Mon, 30 Jan 2023 at 11:16, Rick Moscoloni 
> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hi Andy, could this be merged to master? or are proprietary?
> > >
> > > It has been offered to us, but it doesn't merge cleanly as it predates
> > > the Joints-Axes changes.
> > >
> > > Rob Ellenberg said, (April 2021)
> > > There has been some divergence in the TP but not an impossible amount.
> > > The main challenge there is getting the associated emccanon changes
> > > merged, because max velocity / acceleration is calculated differently,
> > > and all those changes are mixed in with things like the coordinate
> > > transform overhaul (so we have to either tease that out again or port
> > > a big chunk of interp changes too). Do you know of anyone in the
> > > community who would be willing to do testing? I've added some unit
> > > tests for the TP / blending improvements, so it won't take as much
> > > functional testing to prove out the basics.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > atp
> > > "A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
> > > designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
> > > lunatics."
> > > � George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912
> > >
> > >
> > > ___
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> > > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
> > >
> >
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Re: [Emc-users] Running PathPilot on non-Tormach Machines

[John Dammeyer]

I've just been emailed that my second BoB has been shipped.  Once that arrives 
I have:
Pi4 + Mesa 7i92H + 2xBoB + power supplies.
I'd also be willing to test, assuming I can be sent an img file to do a stock 
newbie type installation for an open loop stepper controlled CNC router or a 
mill. 

I'd use an existing hal/ini file combination and make whatever changes are 
required for the Tormach based install.  I'd look at using the I/O modeled 
after the image for the Clearpath CNC
https://www.centroidcnc.com/centroid_diy/acorn_cnc_controller.html 
But create an image with the components I'm using.
John

> -Original Message-
> From: Sam Sokolik [mailto:samco...@gmail.com]
> Sent: January-31-23 7:43 AM
> To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Running PathPilot on non-Tormach Machines
> 
> I would certainly go back into testing mode if Rob merged the TP changes..
> :)  That is stuff you can setup and let run..
> 
> sam
> 
> On Tue, Jan 31, 2023 at 7:05 AM andy pugh  wrote:
> 
> > On Mon, 30 Jan 2023 at 11:16, Rick Moscoloni  wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi Andy, could this be merged to master? or are proprietary?
> >
> > It has been offered to us, but it doesn't merge cleanly as it predates
> > the Joints-Axes changes.
> >
> > Rob Ellenberg said, (April 2021)
> > There has been some divergence in the TP but not an impossible amount.
> > The main challenge there is getting the associated emccanon changes
> > merged, because max velocity / acceleration is calculated differently,
> > and all those changes are mixed in with things like the coordinate
> > transform overhaul (so we have to either tease that out again or port
> > a big chunk of interp changes too). Do you know of anyone in the
> > community who would be willing to do testing? I've added some unit
> > tests for the TP / blending improvements, so it won't take as much
> > functional testing to prove out the basics.
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > atp
> > "A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
> > designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
> > lunatics."
> > � George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912
> >
> >
> > ___
> > Emc-users mailing list
> > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
> >
> 
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Re: [Emc-users] Running PathPilot on non-Tormach Machines

[Rick Moscoloni]

Andy, thanks for the answer.

El mar, 31 ene 2023 a las 10:05, andy pugh () escribió:

> On Mon, 30 Jan 2023 at 11:16, Rick Moscoloni  wrote:
> >
> > Hi Andy, could this be merged to master? or are proprietary?
>
> It has been offered to us, but it doesn't merge cleanly as it predates
> the Joints-Axes changes.
>
> Rob Ellenberg said, (April 2021)
> There has been some divergence in the TP but not an impossible amount.
> The main challenge there is getting the associated emccanon changes
> merged, because max velocity / acceleration is calculated differently,
> and all those changes are mixed in with things like the coordinate
> transform overhaul (so we have to either tease that out again or port
> a big chunk of interp changes too). Do you know of anyone in the
> community who would be willing to do testing? I've added some unit
> tests for the TP / blending improvements, so it won't take as much
> functional testing to prove out the basics.
>
>
>
> --
> atp
> "A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
> designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
> lunatics."
> — George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912
>
>
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Re: [Emc-users] Running PathPilot on non-Tormach Machines

[Sam Sokolik]

I would certainly go back into testing mode if Rob merged the TP changes..
:)  That is stuff you can setup and let run..

sam

On Tue, Jan 31, 2023 at 7:05 AM andy pugh  wrote:

> On Mon, 30 Jan 2023 at 11:16, Rick Moscoloni  wrote:
> >
> > Hi Andy, could this be merged to master? or are proprietary?
>
> It has been offered to us, but it doesn't merge cleanly as it predates
> the Joints-Axes changes.
>
> Rob Ellenberg said, (April 2021)
> There has been some divergence in the TP but not an impossible amount.
> The main challenge there is getting the associated emccanon changes
> merged, because max velocity / acceleration is calculated differently,
> and all those changes are mixed in with things like the coordinate
> transform overhaul (so we have to either tease that out again or port
> a big chunk of interp changes too). Do you know of anyone in the
> community who would be willing to do testing? I've added some unit
> tests for the TP / blending improvements, so it won't take as much
> functional testing to prove out the basics.
>
>
>
> --
> atp
> "A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
> designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
> lunatics."
> — George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912
>
>
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Re: [Emc-users] Running PathPilot on non-Tormach Machines

[andy pugh]

On Mon, 30 Jan 2023 at 11:16, Rick Moscoloni  wrote:
>
> Hi Andy, could this be merged to master? or are proprietary?

It has been offered to us, but it doesn't merge cleanly as it predates
the Joints-Axes changes.

Rob Ellenberg said, (April 2021)
There has been some divergence in the TP but not an impossible amount.
The main challenge there is getting the associated emccanon changes
merged, because max velocity / acceleration is calculated differently,
and all those changes are mixed in with things like the coordinate
transform overhaul (so we have to either tease that out again or port
a big chunk of interp changes too). Do you know of anyone in the
community who would be willing to do testing? I've added some unit
tests for the TP / blending improvements, so it won't take as much
functional testing to prove out the basics.



--
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912


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Re: [Emc-users] Running PathPilot on non-Tormach Machines

[Rick Moscoloni]

Hi Andy, could this be merged to master? or are proprietary?

El mar, 24 ene 2023 a las 16:58, Andy Pugh () escribió:

>
>
> > On 24 Jan 2023, at 18:03, Eric Keller  wrote:
> >
> > Doesn't Pathpilot have better motion planning for more than 3 axes?
>
> Yes, it has full 9-axis blending.
>
>
>
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Re: [Emc-users] Running PathPilot on non-Tormach Machines

[Gregg Eshelman via Emc-users]

Windows has had a Hardware Abstraction Layer and Application Programming 
Interface for a long time, the objective is to make it much easier for hardware 
companies to interface their hardware with the software.

A manufacturer of a device like a 4th axis could provide the software required 
to operate it as a 'plugin' to the CNC operating system's universal software 
interface.

On Thursday, January 26, 2023 at 11:34:28 AM MST, Bari  
wrote: 

How many CNC machine startup's have there been in the past few years? 
Maybe a handful in some niche markets? The vendors in China offer the 
popular CNC controllers that we all are accustomed to or use ARM 
controllers similar to NVEM.

There have been several additive manufacturing start ups in the past few 
years but their investors and business strategy requires them to start 
from scratch and reinvent the wheels of PC controllers, Mesa FPGAs and 
LCNC. They don't want anything to be shared with their competition even 
though it can shave years off of getting a machine to market.


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Re: [Emc-users] Running PathPilot on non-Tormach Machines

[Chris Albertson]

On Thu, Jan 26, 2023 at 6:11 PM John Dammeyer 
wrote:

> > From: Chris Albertson [mailto:albertson.ch...@gmail.com]
> >
> > On Thu, Jan 26, 2023 at 5:03 PM John Dammeyer 
> > wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > I should probably buy another high speed 16GB or 32GB MicroSD in prep
> for
> > > creating a 2.9 system that runs Path Pilot.
> > >
> >
> > Skip the SD card.  Pi4 runs faster with a USB3 SSD.This used to be an
> > expensive luxury but now if you have a spare USB3 external drive it's
> free.
>
> That's not a bad idea.  I'll look into that.  I have a USB to 2.5" hard
> drive adaptor.
>
> >
> > Another option is a server to hold the Pi4's files.  It is not as slow as
> > you might think if you use 1Gb Ethernet.  Then it is fun to do a "df" on
> > the Pi4 and see that it has 12TB of free space, but the real advantage is
> > the files live on the server that uses a versioned file system and is
> > continuously backed up.
>
> No idea if 1 GB Ethernet can be put onto a USB3.  I'm using the Ethernet
> connector on the Pi for MESA 7i92H.
>

NFS does run over WiFi.  I'm not sure of the performance.I have a Pi4
inside a robot and all the Python code to run the robot lives on the server
and is NFS mounted over WiFi but.

In your case the files wuld live on the local USB drive and you's likely
only use NFS for moving files or common things that you want on every
computer (like a ~/Downloads, /gcode and such

> >
> > Chris Albertson
> > Redondo Beach, California
>
> John
>
>
>
>
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-- 

Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California

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Re: [Emc-users] Running PathPilot on non-Tormach Machines

[gene heskett]

On 1/26/23 20:01, John Dammeyer wrote:

So at the moment this is where I sit with the Pi4B (1GB) on the lab bench.
http://www.autoartisans.com/mill/Pi4-LinuxCNC-hardware.jpg

The Chinese BoB is at the top left.  The other two BoBs are ones I had kicking 
around.  The board in the yellow box takes TTL step/dir/enable and Fault and 
converts it into the correct format DB-25 for Bergerda AC Servo drives with 
differential signals rather than TTL.  There's also a little expansion board 
that takes PWM and changes it to 0-10V.

The little blue dongle is the CANUSB that talks to a module which controls Mist 
Motor Speed and signals to load or unload the draw bar.

And it does run LinuxCNC AXIS 2.8.2
http://www.autoartisans.com/mill/LinuxCNC-2.8-Pi4B-1GB.png

I should probably buy another high speed 16GB or 32GB MicroSD in prep for 
creating a 2.9 system that runs Path Pilot.

Within the os size limits, the bigger the u-sd, the longer it lives. I 
have had zero failures with 64G cards. Numerous with 8, and a few with 16.



Actually should probably pick up a tiny milling machine and do a conversion on 
it with this hardware in mind.
John



Excellent idea, but make it a big enough machine to be useful.
Take care and stay well, John.

Cheers, Gene Heskett.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 



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Re: [Emc-users] Running PathPilot on non-Tormach Machines

[John Dammeyer]

> From: Chris Albertson [mailto:albertson.ch...@gmail.com]
> 
> On Thu, Jan 26, 2023 at 5:03 PM John Dammeyer 
> wrote:
> 
> >
> > I should probably buy another high speed 16GB or 32GB MicroSD in prep for
> > creating a 2.9 system that runs Path Pilot.
> >
> 
> Skip the SD card.  Pi4 runs faster with a USB3 SSD.This used to be an
> expensive luxury but now if you have a spare USB3 external drive it's free.

That's not a bad idea.  I'll look into that.  I have a USB to 2.5" hard drive 
adaptor.

> 
> Another option is a server to hold the Pi4's files.  It is not as slow as
> you might think if you use 1Gb Ethernet.  Then it is fun to do a "df" on
> the Pi4 and see that it has 12TB of free space, but the real advantage is
> the files live on the server that uses a versioned file system and is
> continuously backed up.

No idea if 1 GB Ethernet can be put onto a USB3.  I'm using the Ethernet 
connector on the Pi for MESA 7i92H.
> 
> Chris Albertson
> Redondo Beach, California

John




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Re: [Emc-users] Running PathPilot on non-Tormach Machines

[Chris Albertson]

On Thu, Jan 26, 2023 at 5:03 PM John Dammeyer 
wrote:

>
> I should probably buy another high speed 16GB or 32GB MicroSD in prep for
> creating a 2.9 system that runs Path Pilot.
>

Skip the SD card.  Pi4 runs faster with a USB3 SSD.This used to be an
expensive luxury but now if you have a spare USB3 external drive it's free.

Another option is a server to hold the Pi4's files.  It is not as slow as
you might think if you use 1Gb Ethernet.  Then it is fun to do a "df" on
the Pi4 and see that it has 12TB of free space, but the real advantage is
the files live on the server that uses a versioned file system and is
continuously backed up.

-- 

Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California

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Re: [Emc-users] Running PathPilot on non-Tormach Machines

[John Dammeyer]

So at the moment this is where I sit with the Pi4B (1GB) on the lab bench.
http://www.autoartisans.com/mill/Pi4-LinuxCNC-hardware.jpg

The Chinese BoB is at the top left.  The other two BoBs are ones I had kicking 
around.  The board in the yellow box takes TTL step/dir/enable and Fault and 
converts it into the correct format DB-25 for Bergerda AC Servo drives with 
differential signals rather than TTL.  There's also a little expansion board 
that takes PWM and changes it to 0-10V.

The little blue dongle is the CANUSB that talks to a module which controls Mist 
Motor Speed and signals to load or unload the draw bar.

And it does run LinuxCNC AXIS 2.8.2
http://www.autoartisans.com/mill/LinuxCNC-2.8-Pi4B-1GB.png

I should probably buy another high speed 16GB or 32GB MicroSD in prep for 
creating a 2.9 system that runs Path Pilot.

Actually should probably pick up a tiny milling machine and do a conversion on 
it with this hardware in mind.
John




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Re: [Emc-users] Running PathPilot on non-Tormach Machines

[rehenry]

> On 1/26/23 13:43, rehe...@fast-air.net wrote:
>>
>> The HIWIN AC drive manual mentioned recently in another thread begins
>> with
>> a couple fascinating cautions.
>>
>> * Do not dismantle or modify the product.
>>
>> * Before installing or using the product, check the external appearance.
>>
>> * Do not try to repair any product malfunctions.
>>
>> If we applied this thinking to EMC... pardon me, LCNC we would do
>> nothing
>> at all with it.
>>
>> EMC was an experiment by the NIST. (National Institute of Standards and
>> Technology) It moved into the open when Matt Shaver asked NIST if their
>> stuff was open source.  At that point Matt was a NOOB, as was John Elson
>> and Dan Falck soon after.
>>
>> I'm probably misquoting Robert Heinlein, but he taught me that, "We
>> learn
>> from mistakes, if we learn at all."  So let's rejoice in our civil
>> NOOBS,
>> and ignore the less than civil ones... help when we are able. and take
>> pleasure in LCNC and those who enjoy it.
>>
>> I remember watching a German built 6 axis mini hexapod, half the size of
>> a
>> sheet of paper jumping around on Till's desk.  The EMC was running on an
>> old 486 processor.  Damn that was thrilling.
>>
>> Ray
>>
>
> Ray Henry, a voice from the past! I'm the Gene in an Econoline van that
> stole most of your butternut for 50 bucks all those years ago. Some of
> it is the paneling in my kitchen cabinets now.  And gets the oohs and
> aahs by visiting frogs. And thanks for the impromptu picnic in your back
> yard the night before.
>
> I hope your health is holding up, I'm 88, alone now with a chest full of
> new parts but doing well for the years.
>
> Take care and stay well
>
> Cheers, Gene Heskett.
> --
> "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
>   soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
> -Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
> If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
>   - Louis D. Brandeis
> Genes Web page 

Hi Gene.  Been reading posts and appreciate your continued work with the
project.  Forgot about your "theft" glad that you got good use out of it.

Ray


>
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Re: [Emc-users] Running PathPilot on non-Tormach Machines

[John Dammeyer]

Hi Chris,
I've book marked your posting.
https://forum.linuxcnc.org/pathpilot/45286-pathpilot-v2-source-code?start=30
Looking forward to see if you get a link to the code.
John


> -Original Message-
> From: Chris Albertson [mailto:albertson.ch...@gmail.com]
> Sent: January-25-23 2:11 PM
> To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Running PathPilot on non-Tormach Machines
> 
> The root of the issue here is that LCNC is not a product.  It is a
> development environment where a person can, with some effort, develop a
> product.
> 
> Then the problem is that as a group, machinists tend not to have computer
> skills or much interest in learning computer skills.  What we see on this
> email list is the one-in-the-thousand exception.  Most machinists just want
> to make parts and not futz with the tools, especially if the tools involve
> computers.
> 
> We are still in a transition period.  Today most machinists are older men
> who actually hate and resent CNC.  They spent a lifetime learning to turn
> handwheels and now some voodoo-magic boxes they don't understand completely
> outclasses their hard-won skill.The new class of machinist are
> different.  They are more like engineers then blue color factory
> machinists.  These new guys see g-code as the product and parts as the
> byproduct and most of this new generation is not used to making anything by
> hand.
> 
> We are still in the transitional period where we see a mix of the old guys
> who have adapted to new ways, new people who have never made anything by
> hand and the few of us on this list who actualy like to mess with tools.
> 
> Torrmach did a good thing by turning LCNC into a marketable product.
> 
> On Wed, Jan 25, 2023 at 1:30 PM John Dammeyer 
> wrote:
> 
> > Hi Todd,
> > First of all that LCNC can run 8 head/spindle gang... machine has nothing
> > to do with the subject line.
> >
> > And the grumble I often hear from people who have attempted or looked into
> > LinuxCNC for their system is nicely summarized by your statement:
> >
> > " Linuxcnc isn't for everyone.  The companies willing to support and hold
> > the hand of a green noob who isn't interested in learning anything, charge
> > accordingly."
> >
> > Or as generally interpreted by most:  "F Off if you are a green noob and
> > can't figure out LCNC or Linux"
> >
> > Personally I think the theme of the original post and conversation was how
> > easy is it to create a turnkey system that runs Path Pilot on non Tormach
> > Hardware.
> >
> > IMHO, a lot more people would be interested in LCNC if there was a simple
> > easy to follow, step by step method of setting up a 4 axis mill.  The
> > menu's for setting up motors etc. in AXIS either for the parallel port
> > (almost extinct) or the MESA boards is really good but doesn't go far
> > enough.
> >
> > There are a few youtube videos out there that show how to select motors
> > based on mass of the system and acme or ball screw or belt reduction.  But
> > the learning curve is steep and is just easier with systems that are not
> > LCNC.
> >
> > John
> >
> > > -Original Message-
> > > From: Todd Zuercher [mailto:to...@pgrahamdunn.com]
> > > Sent: January-24-23 11:45 AM
> > > To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> > > Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Running PathPilot on non-Tormach Machines
> > >
> > > I'd like see the retrofit CNC package on the market (other than
> > Linuxcnc) that can run an 8 head/spindle gang
> > > router, with individual Z axis and VFD control for each spindle.  I'm
> > sorry but freedom of customization comes
> > > at the cost of complexity.  If you want the freedom to be able to
> > use/run almost anything, you're going to
> > > have to know something about both the hardware and software.  You want
> > simple buy some simple 4 axis all
> > > in one stepper box and plug it in.
> > >
> > > Linuxcnc isn't for everyone.  The companies willing to support and hold
> > the hand of a green noob who isn't
> > > interested in learning anything, charge accordingly.
> > >
> > > Todd Zuercher
> > > P. Graham Dunn Inc.
> > > 630 Henry Street
> > > Dalton, Ohio 44618
> > > Phone:  (330)828-2105ext. 2031
> > >
> > > -Original Message-
> > > From: John Dammeyer 
> > > Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2023 1:39 PM
> > > To: 'Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)'  > >
> > > Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Running PathPilot on non-Tormach 

Re: [Emc-users] Running PathPilot on non-Tormach Machines

[gene heskett]

On 1/26/23 13:43, rehe...@fast-air.net wrote:


The HIWIN AC drive manual mentioned recently in another thread begins with
a couple fascinating cautions.

* Do not dismantle or modify the product.

* Before installing or using the product, check the external appearance.

* Do not try to repair any product malfunctions.

If we applied this thinking to EMC... pardon me, LCNC we would do nothing
at all with it.

EMC was an experiment by the NIST. (National Institute of Standards and
Technology) It moved into the open when Matt Shaver asked NIST if their
stuff was open source.  At that point Matt was a NOOB, as was John Elson
and Dan Falck soon after.

I'm probably misquoting Robert Heinlein, but he taught me that, "We learn
from mistakes, if we learn at all."  So let's rejoice in our civil NOOBS,
and ignore the less than civil ones... help when we are able. and take
pleasure in LCNC and those who enjoy it.

I remember watching a German built 6 axis mini hexapod, half the size of a
sheet of paper jumping around on Till's desk.  The EMC was running on an
old 486 processor.  Damn that was thrilling.

Ray



Ray Henry, a voice from the past! I'm the Gene in an Econoline van that 
stole most of your butternut for 50 bucks all those years ago. Some of 
it is the paneling in my kitchen cabinets now.  And gets the oohs and 
aahs by visiting frogs. And thanks for the impromptu picnic in your back 
yard the night before.


I hope your health is holding up, I'm 88, alone now with a chest full of 
new parts but doing well for the years.


Take care and stay well

Cheers, Gene Heskett.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 



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Re: [Emc-users] Running PathPilot on non-Tormach Machines

[John Dammeyer]

And another addendum.
https://forum.linuxcnc.org/9-installing-linuxcnc/47796-install-rt-kernel-and-linuxcnc-2-9-on-rpi4#260565


> -Original Message-
> From: John Dammeyer [mailto:jo...@autoartisans.com]
> Sent: January-26-23 10:41 AM
> To: 'Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)'
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Running PathPilot on non-Tormach Machines
> 
> Just an addendum.  Likely Peter at MESA can create a different 7i92 file that 
> fills the need for the Chinese BoB.
> Here's a comment that is inside my Pi4 MESA hal file.
> Note I identify the .pin file for the MESA.
> Note too that there is no secondary function on pin 1 which is configured as 
> an output for the machine enable
> signal.
> 
> No beginner is going to want to start cutting traces to redirect one of the 
> PWM output modules to the first
> DB25-1.  So to truly make the 7i92H compatible with the Chinese BoB it needs 
> a different .pin file.  But there's
> no point if we can't first create a Tormach Pi4 LCNC image file.
> 
> # external I/O signals
> # IO Connections for P2 MESA 7i92_C11Gx2D.pin  (from file)
> # Pin#  I/O   Pri. funcSec. func   Chan  Pin funcPin Dir
> 
> #  1  0   IOPort   None   
> machine-is-
> enabled (output)
> John
> 
> > -Original Message-
> > From: dave engvall [mailto:dengv...@charter.net]
> > Sent: January-26-23 10:09 AM
> > To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Running PathPilot on non-Tormach Machines
> >
> > Different strokes for different people.
> > Tormach supplies a niche market and is surviving. :-)
> > I went the other way and bought a machine with a dead control at
> > auction. Trucked it in, shoved it thru the door of my shop and then
> > spent the next year getting it running, New servo amps, servo-to-go
> > card,? encoders on the ballscrew, etc. Not for someone that wants a
> > turnkey op. Resale is not good; e.g. Mazak converted at Galesburg went
> > out the door for way under 1K$ and that had the tool change working, new
> > driver cards, and I think new amps. Labor of love or a challenge but
> > certainly not a business opportunity!
> >
> > I must admit the subject prompted a lot of traffic.
> >
> > Dave
> > On 1/26/23 8:45 AM, ken.stra...@sympatico.ca wrote:
> > > Nor do I! That is why I sent a pile of cash to Tormach instead of trying 
> > > to
> > > roll my own. It just works and allows me to make chips without worrying
> > > about editing files or applying updates that break things or... Others
> > > obviously favour different choices!
> > >
> > > -Original Message-
> > > From: Stuart Stevenson 
> > > Sent: January 26, 2023 11:38 AM
> > > To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) 
> > > Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Running PathPilot on non-Tormach Machines
> > >
> > >   "Define a set of hardware that works and make their own distribution 
> > > with
> > > only one user interface.  It doesn't surprise me that nobody wants to do
> > > this thankless task."
> > >
> > > Perhaps thankless but Tormach has built a presumably profitable business 
> > > by
> > > doing exactly that.
> > >
> > > And then packaging and selling the hardware to match.
> > > An added dimension many (me included) do not want to tackle.
> > >
> > > Overall, I am very impressed (and satisfied) with the capability and
> > > progress.
> > >
> > > thanks
> > > Stuart
> > >
> > >
> > > On Thu, Jan 26, 2023 at 9:33 AM  wrote:
> > >
> > >> "Define a set of hardware that works and make their own distribution
> > >> with only one user interface.  It doesn't surprise me that nobody
> > >> wants to do this thankless task."
> > >>
> > >> Perhaps thankless but Tormach has built a presumably profitable
> > >> business by doing exactly that.
> > >>
> > >> -Original Message-
> > >> From: Eric Keller 
> > >> Sent: January 26, 2023 10:01 AM
> > >> To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> > >> 
> > >> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Running PathPilot on non-Tormach Machines
> > >>
> > >> On Thu, Jan 26, 2023 at 8:24 AM  wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> To me this is the minimum level of magic required to make a
> > >>> commercially viable product. The vast majority of po

Re: [Emc-users] Running PathPilot on non-Tormach Machines

[John Dammeyer]

Just an addendum.  Likely Peter at MESA can create a different 7i92 file that 
fills the need for the Chinese BoB.  Here's a comment that is inside my Pi4 
MESA hal file.
Note I identify the .pin file for the MESA.  
Note too that there is no secondary function on pin 1 which is configured as an 
output for the machine enable signal.

No beginner is going to want to start cutting traces to redirect one of the PWM 
output modules to the first DB25-1.  So to truly make the 7i92H compatible with 
the Chinese BoB it needs a different .pin file.  But there's no point if we 
can't first create a Tormach Pi4 LCNC image file.

# external I/O signals
# IO Connections for P2 MESA 7i92_C11Gx2D.pin  (from file)
# Pin#  I/O   Pri. funcSec. func   Chan  Pin funcPin Dir

#  1  0   IOPort   None 
machine-is-enabled (output)
John

> -Original Message-
> From: dave engvall [mailto:dengv...@charter.net]
> Sent: January-26-23 10:09 AM
> To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Running PathPilot on non-Tormach Machines
> 
> Different strokes for different people.
> Tormach supplies a niche market and is surviving. :-)
> I went the other way and bought a machine with a dead control at
> auction. Trucked it in, shoved it thru the door of my shop and then
> spent the next year getting it running, New servo amps, servo-to-go
> card,� encoders on the ballscrew, etc. Not for someone that wants a
> turnkey op. Resale is not good; e.g. Mazak converted at Galesburg went
> out the door for way under 1K$ and that had the tool change working, new
> driver cards, and I think new amps. Labor of love or a challenge but
> certainly not a business opportunity!
> 
> I must admit the subject prompted a lot of traffic.
> 
> Dave
> On 1/26/23 8:45 AM, ken.stra...@sympatico.ca wrote:
> > Nor do I! That is why I sent a pile of cash to Tormach instead of trying to
> > roll my own. It just works and allows me to make chips without worrying
> > about editing files or applying updates that break things or... Others
> > obviously favour different choices!
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Stuart Stevenson 
> > Sent: January 26, 2023 11:38 AM
> > To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) 
> > Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Running PathPilot on non-Tormach Machines
> >
> >   "Define a set of hardware that works and make their own distribution with
> > only one user interface.  It doesn't surprise me that nobody wants to do
> > this thankless task."
> >
> > Perhaps thankless but Tormach has built a presumably profitable business by
> > doing exactly that.
> >
> > And then packaging and selling the hardware to match.
> > An added dimension many (me included) do not want to tackle.
> >
> > Overall, I am very impressed (and satisfied) with the capability and
> > progress.
> >
> > thanks
> > Stuart
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Jan 26, 2023 at 9:33 AM  wrote:
> >
> >> "Define a set of hardware that works and make their own distribution
> >> with only one user interface.  It doesn't surprise me that nobody
> >> wants to do this thankless task."
> >>
> >> Perhaps thankless but Tormach has built a presumably profitable
> >> business by doing exactly that.
> >>
> >> -Original Message-
> >> From: Eric Keller 
> >> Sent: January 26, 2023 10:01 AM
> >> To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> >> 
> >> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Running PathPilot on non-Tormach Machines
> >>
> >> On Thu, Jan 26, 2023 at 8:24 AM  wrote:
> >>
> >>> To me this is the minimum level of magic required to make a
> >>> commercially viable product. The vast majority of potential users
> >>> are uncomfortable (or don't want to bother) with manually modifying
> >>> configuration files. Of course the power of LinuxCNC is due to the
> >>> possibility of configuring things for all sorts of hardware. Without
> >>> magic the flexibility means that it will never be mainstream.
> >> Nobody wants to give up the flexibility though.  The problem that lcnc
> >> has is aptly summarized in this thread where someone gave up because
> >> they wanted to use an Rpi4 and ethercat.  That's fine, and there are
> >> plenty of people that have ethercat running with lcnc, maybe even on a
> >> Rpi4.  But both the
> >> Rpi4 and ethercat require a bit of messing around, I think, and
> >> neither are really mainline lcnc.  Getting a 3 axis running on 

Re: [Emc-users] Running PathPilot on non-Tormach Machines

[Bari]

How many CNC machine startup's have there been in the past few years? 
Maybe a handful in some niche markets? The vendors in China offer the 
popular CNC controllers that we all are accustomed to or use ARM 
controllers similar to NVEM.


There have been several additive manufacturing start ups in the past few 
years but their investors and business strategy requires them to start 
from scratch and reinvent the wheels of PC controllers, Mesa FPGAs and 
LCNC. They don't want anything to be shared with their competition even 
though it can shave years off of getting a machine to market.


On 1/26/23 10:37, Stuart Stevenson wrote:

  "Define a set of hardware that works and make their own distribution with
only one user interface.  It doesn't surprise me that nobody wants to do
this thankless task."

Perhaps thankless but Tormach has built a presumably profitable business by
doing exactly that.

And then packaging and selling the hardware to match.
An added dimension many (me included) do not want to tackle.

Overall, I am very impressed (and satisfied) with the capability and
progress.

thanks
Stuart


On Thu, Jan 26, 2023 at 9:33 AM  wrote:


"Define a set of hardware that works and make their own distribution with
only one user interface.  It doesn't surprise me that nobody wants to do
this thankless task."

Perhaps thankless but Tormach has built a presumably profitable business by
doing exactly that.

-Original Message-
From: Eric Keller 
Sent: January 26, 2023 10:01 AM
To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) 
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Running PathPilot on non-Tormach Machines

On Thu, Jan 26, 2023 at 8:24 AM  wrote:


To me this is the minimum level of magic required to make a
commercially viable product. The vast majority of potential users are
uncomfortable (or don't want to bother) with manually modifying
configuration files. Of course the power of LinuxCNC is due to the
possibility of configuring things for all sorts of hardware. Without
magic the flexibility means that it will never be mainstream.

Nobody wants to give up the flexibility though.  The problem that lcnc has
is aptly summarized in this thread where someone gave up because they
wanted
to use an Rpi4 and ethercat.  That's fine, and there are plenty of people
that have ethercat running with lcnc, maybe even on a Rpi4.  But both the
Rpi4 and ethercat require a bit of messing around, I think, and neither are
really mainline lcnc.  Getting a 3 axis running on a Mesa board on a PC
with
decent latency (another sticking point, unfortunately) is trivial.  Someone
mentioned 4 axis.  The problem with that is that everyone has their own 4th
axis.  This is also the problem with lcnc in general.  I would say more
than
90% of the problems I see with people having trouble setting up lcnc is
they
have a totally nonstandard install that wouldn't work with any other
software either.  So they can't get it to work with lcnc, buy something
standard, and go install Mach. And then badmouth lcnc any time the subject
comes up.

The people that want to make lcnc more popular could do something about it,
I think.  Define a set of hardware that works and make their own
distribution with only one user interface.  It doesn't surprise me that
nobody wants to do this thankless task.
Eric Keller
Boalsburg, Pennsylvania


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Re: [Emc-users] Running PathPilot on non-Tormach Machines

[John Dammeyer]

I have LCNC running on a Pi4 with the wired Ethernet to the 7i92H to two 
different BoBs.  One of them, the Chinese one, will have an identical friend in 
a month or so.  (assuming it ever arrives).  That's the BoB I reverse 
engineered and for which I now have a schematic.

The reason it was easy to make work is because I downloaded the Pi4 LCNC  image 
file and created the MicroSD card. Then copied over my PC based .ini and .hal 
files for the Mesa 7i92H and tweaked them for the Pi.  This all works.  I even 
have a CAN hat installed and send messages for the beginnings of a tool changer 
module and some user buttons and indicators on the AXIS screen.

But I also get the latency message 'once' on this system and have no idea why.  
However I think once I get the second BoB I'll dig further into that.

The advantage of the Mesa 7i92H is that for MACH3 users or beginners it's still 
just standard parallel ports.   And so yes.  Inputs are limited.  And yes you 
can't do closed loop servos.  And yes it's limited on I/O for complicated tool 
changers.  And yes those are all really important for those who want really 
precision machines.

But we're talking hobby types here. People who on some MACH systems haven't 
even bothered with limit or home switches.  

BTW, I've also done a BeagleBone Black with a cape and MachineKit and actually 
moved motors on my mill.  But that cape required NO limit switches.  I had to 
cut traces and change some things on the cape to get NC to work.  And when 
MachineKit support vanished so did the BBB.

So for those hobby types I think the Tormach interface (which originally used 
MACH3) would be more attractive.  But I don't even know where to start to 
create a Pi4 based Tormach LCNC.

So... If whoever put together the Pi4 LCNC with the AXIS screen would do a 
Tormach port, I likely could do the rest as far as the HAL and INI files for 
the COTS BoBs.   I'd even put together a machine drawing on how to connect.

Could almost run it on my mill except that I use the DB25-1 for Machine Enable 
and DB25-17 for a charge pump.  The smaller machines and hobby types would 
likely use stepper motors and neither of those absolutely require Enable or 
Charge Pump since the Chinese BoB doesn't have either as an input.

The Chinese BoB uses DB25-1 as an optional 0-10V out for VFD control (PWM with 
filter).  It also has a relay output on DB25-17 for something like Mist or 
Flood Coolant.  Most hobby users would likely use  VFD and coolant or just the 
relay for Spindle ON/OFF with belt changes or manual turn a knob speed.

Now my existing Spindle motor is an AC Servo and I use Step/Dir but it does 
also handle 0-10V.  The second Parallel port output on the 7i92 goes to the 
Chinese BoB and there I have the quadrature encoding for power tapping.

So yes, if you have an 8 axis spindle or whatever with ancient DC servos, 
resolvers etc on a 5000# piece of old iron then the Pi4 with 7i92H isn't for 
you.  But lately the push on some groups is on for the ClearPath or other 
step-servos (quite expensive compared to AC servos but what the heck).  

These people buy a new Precision Mathews mini mill and buy a turnkey with 
diagrams CNC controller locked into whatever that manufacturer will give them.  

I'd just like to see LCNC there with this marvelous support group instead.

John


> -Original Message-
> From: Eric Keller [mailto:keller...@gmail.com]
> Sent: January-26-23 7:01 AM
> To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Running PathPilot on non-Tormach Machines
> 
> On Thu, Jan 26, 2023 at 8:24 AM  wrote:
> 
> > To me this is the minimum level of magic required to make a commercially
> > viable product. The vast majority of potential users are uncomfortable (or
> > don't want to bother) with manually modifying configuration files. Of course
> > the power of LinuxCNC is due to the possibility of configuring things for
> > all sorts of hardware. Without magic the flexibility means that it will
> > never be mainstream.
> 
> Nobody wants to give up the flexibility though.  The problem that lcnc
> has is aptly summarized in this thread where someone gave up because
> they wanted to use an Rpi4 and ethercat.  That's fine, and there are
> plenty of people that have ethercat running with lcnc, maybe even on a
> Rpi4.  But both the Rpi4 and ethercat require a bit of messing around,
> I think, and neither are really mainline lcnc.  Getting a 3 axis
> running on a Mesa board on a PC with decent latency (another sticking
> point, unfortunately) is trivial.  Someone mentioned 4 axis.  The
> problem with that is that everyone has their own 4th axis.  This is
> also the problem with lcnc in general.  I would say more than 90% of
> the problems I see with people having trouble setting up lcnc is they
> have a totally nonstandard install that wouldn't work with any other
> s

Re: [Emc-users] Running PathPilot on non-Tormach Machines

[rehenry]

The HIWIN AC drive manual mentioned recently in another thread begins with
a couple fascinating cautions.

* Do not dismantle or modify the product.

* Before installing or using the product, check the external appearance.

* Do not try to repair any product malfunctions.

If we applied this thinking to EMC... pardon me, LCNC we would do nothing
at all with it.

EMC was an experiment by the NIST. (National Institute of Standards and
Technology) It moved into the open when Matt Shaver asked NIST if their
stuff was open source.  At that point Matt was a NOOB, as was John Elson
and Dan Falck soon after.

I'm probably misquoting Robert Heinlein, but he taught me that, "We learn
from mistakes, if we learn at all."  So let's rejoice in our civil NOOBS,
and ignore the less than civil ones... help when we are able. and take
pleasure in LCNC and those who enjoy it.

I remember watching a German built 6 axis mini hexapod, half the size of a
sheet of paper jumping around on Till's desk.  The EMC was running on an
old 486 processor.  Damn that was thrilling.

Ray


> I remember when Tormach started, they were supplying cnc machines loaded
> with Mach 3, they decided to go a different route as their product range
> increased.
>
> To quote part of their description:
>
> "If it's available, it's included. We eliminated the headaches of costly
> upgrades or a al carte pricing that holds advanced features behind a
> paywall."
>
> The nice thing about this is it is open source, you can get hold of it for
> no cost and, if you are a geek, you can take a look at how it was all put
> together. Nice!  Modify it also if you want. Nice!
>
> Try doing that with a Windows based commercial system.
>
> Martin




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Re: [Emc-users] Running PathPilot on non-Tormach Machines

[dave engvall]

Different strokes for different people.
Tormach supplies a niche market and is surviving. :-)
I went the other way and bought a machine with a dead control at 
auction. Trucked it in, shoved it thru the door of my shop and then 
spent the next year getting it running, New servo amps, servo-to-go 
card,  encoders on the ballscrew, etc. Not for someone that wants a 
turnkey op. Resale is not good; e.g. Mazak converted at Galesburg went 
out the door for way under 1K$ and that had the tool change working, new 
driver cards, and I think new amps. Labor of love or a challenge but 
certainly not a business opportunity!


I must admit the subject prompted a lot of traffic.

Dave
On 1/26/23 8:45 AM, ken.stra...@sympatico.ca wrote:

Nor do I! That is why I sent a pile of cash to Tormach instead of trying to
roll my own. It just works and allows me to make chips without worrying
about editing files or applying updates that break things or... Others
obviously favour different choices!

-Original Message-
From: Stuart Stevenson 
Sent: January 26, 2023 11:38 AM
To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) 
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Running PathPilot on non-Tormach Machines

  "Define a set of hardware that works and make their own distribution with
only one user interface.  It doesn't surprise me that nobody wants to do
this thankless task."

Perhaps thankless but Tormach has built a presumably profitable business by
doing exactly that.

And then packaging and selling the hardware to match.
An added dimension many (me included) do not want to tackle.

Overall, I am very impressed (and satisfied) with the capability and
progress.

thanks
Stuart


On Thu, Jan 26, 2023 at 9:33 AM  wrote:


"Define a set of hardware that works and make their own distribution
with only one user interface.  It doesn't surprise me that nobody
wants to do this thankless task."

Perhaps thankless but Tormach has built a presumably profitable
business by doing exactly that.

-Original Message-
From: Eric Keller 
Sent: January 26, 2023 10:01 AM
To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)

Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Running PathPilot on non-Tormach Machines

On Thu, Jan 26, 2023 at 8:24 AM  wrote:


To me this is the minimum level of magic required to make a
commercially viable product. The vast majority of potential users
are uncomfortable (or don't want to bother) with manually modifying
configuration files. Of course the power of LinuxCNC is due to the
possibility of configuring things for all sorts of hardware. Without
magic the flexibility means that it will never be mainstream.

Nobody wants to give up the flexibility though.  The problem that lcnc
has is aptly summarized in this thread where someone gave up because
they wanted to use an Rpi4 and ethercat.  That's fine, and there are
plenty of people that have ethercat running with lcnc, maybe even on a
Rpi4.  But both the
Rpi4 and ethercat require a bit of messing around, I think, and
neither are really mainline lcnc.  Getting a 3 axis running on a Mesa
board on a PC with decent latency (another sticking point,
unfortunately) is trivial.  Someone mentioned 4 axis.  The problem
with that is that everyone has their own 4th axis.  This is also the
problem with lcnc in general.  I would say more than 90% of the
problems I see with people having trouble setting up lcnc is they have
a totally nonstandard install that wouldn't work with any other
software either.  So they can't get it to work with lcnc, buy
something standard, and go install Mach. And then badmouth lcnc any
time the subject comes up.

The people that want to make lcnc more popular could do something
about it, I think.  Define a set of hardware that works and make their
own distribution with only one user interface.  It doesn't surprise me
that nobody wants to do this thankless task.
Eric Keller
Boalsburg, Pennsylvania


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Addressee is the intended audience.
If you are not the addressee then my consent is not given for you to read
this email furthermore it is my wish you would close this without saving or
reading, and cease and desist from saving or opening my private
correspondence.
Thank you for honoring my wish.

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Re: [Emc-users] Running PathPilot on non-Tormach Machines

[ken.strauss]

Nor do I! That is why I sent a pile of cash to Tormach instead of trying to
roll my own. It just works and allows me to make chips without worrying
about editing files or applying updates that break things or... Others
obviously favour different choices!

-Original Message-
From: Stuart Stevenson  
Sent: January 26, 2023 11:38 AM
To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) 
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Running PathPilot on non-Tormach Machines

 "Define a set of hardware that works and make their own distribution with
only one user interface.  It doesn't surprise me that nobody wants to do
this thankless task."

Perhaps thankless but Tormach has built a presumably profitable business by
doing exactly that.

And then packaging and selling the hardware to match.
An added dimension many (me included) do not want to tackle.

Overall, I am very impressed (and satisfied) with the capability and
progress.

thanks
Stuart


On Thu, Jan 26, 2023 at 9:33 AM  wrote:

> "Define a set of hardware that works and make their own distribution 
> with only one user interface.  It doesn't surprise me that nobody 
> wants to do this thankless task."
>
> Perhaps thankless but Tormach has built a presumably profitable 
> business by doing exactly that.
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Eric Keller 
> Sent: January 26, 2023 10:01 AM
> To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) 
> 
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Running PathPilot on non-Tormach Machines
>
> On Thu, Jan 26, 2023 at 8:24 AM  wrote:
>
> > To me this is the minimum level of magic required to make a 
> > commercially viable product. The vast majority of potential users 
> > are uncomfortable (or don't want to bother) with manually modifying 
> > configuration files. Of course the power of LinuxCNC is due to the 
> > possibility of configuring things for all sorts of hardware. Without 
> > magic the flexibility means that it will never be mainstream.
>
> Nobody wants to give up the flexibility though.  The problem that lcnc 
> has is aptly summarized in this thread where someone gave up because 
> they wanted to use an Rpi4 and ethercat.  That's fine, and there are 
> plenty of people that have ethercat running with lcnc, maybe even on a 
> Rpi4.  But both the
> Rpi4 and ethercat require a bit of messing around, I think, and 
> neither are really mainline lcnc.  Getting a 3 axis running on a Mesa 
> board on a PC with decent latency (another sticking point, 
> unfortunately) is trivial.  Someone mentioned 4 axis.  The problem 
> with that is that everyone has their own 4th axis.  This is also the 
> problem with lcnc in general.  I would say more than 90% of the 
> problems I see with people having trouble setting up lcnc is they have 
> a totally nonstandard install that wouldn't work with any other 
> software either.  So they can't get it to work with lcnc, buy 
> something standard, and go install Mach. And then badmouth lcnc any 
> time the subject comes up.
>
> The people that want to make lcnc more popular could do something 
> about it, I think.  Define a set of hardware that works and make their 
> own distribution with only one user interface.  It doesn't surprise me 
> that nobody wants to do this thankless task.
> Eric Keller
> Boalsburg, Pennsylvania
>
>
> ___
> Emc-users mailing list
> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>
>
>
> ___
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> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>


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reading, and cease and desist from saving or opening my private
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Thank you for honoring my wish.

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Re: [Emc-users] Running PathPilot on non-Tormach Machines

[Stuart Stevenson]

 "Define a set of hardware that works and make their own distribution with
only one user interface.  It doesn't surprise me that nobody wants to do
this thankless task."

Perhaps thankless but Tormach has built a presumably profitable business by
doing exactly that.

And then packaging and selling the hardware to match.
An added dimension many (me included) do not want to tackle.

Overall, I am very impressed (and satisfied) with the capability and
progress.

thanks
Stuart


On Thu, Jan 26, 2023 at 9:33 AM  wrote:

> "Define a set of hardware that works and make their own distribution with
> only one user interface.  It doesn't surprise me that nobody wants to do
> this thankless task."
>
> Perhaps thankless but Tormach has built a presumably profitable business by
> doing exactly that.
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Eric Keller 
> Sent: January 26, 2023 10:01 AM
> To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) 
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Running PathPilot on non-Tormach Machines
>
> On Thu, Jan 26, 2023 at 8:24 AM  wrote:
>
> > To me this is the minimum level of magic required to make a
> > commercially viable product. The vast majority of potential users are
> > uncomfortable (or don't want to bother) with manually modifying
> > configuration files. Of course the power of LinuxCNC is due to the
> > possibility of configuring things for all sorts of hardware. Without
> > magic the flexibility means that it will never be mainstream.
>
> Nobody wants to give up the flexibility though.  The problem that lcnc has
> is aptly summarized in this thread where someone gave up because they
> wanted
> to use an Rpi4 and ethercat.  That's fine, and there are plenty of people
> that have ethercat running with lcnc, maybe even on a Rpi4.  But both the
> Rpi4 and ethercat require a bit of messing around, I think, and neither are
> really mainline lcnc.  Getting a 3 axis running on a Mesa board on a PC
> with
> decent latency (another sticking point, unfortunately) is trivial.  Someone
> mentioned 4 axis.  The problem with that is that everyone has their own 4th
> axis.  This is also the problem with lcnc in general.  I would say more
> than
> 90% of the problems I see with people having trouble setting up lcnc is
> they
> have a totally nonstandard install that wouldn't work with any other
> software either.  So they can't get it to work with lcnc, buy something
> standard, and go install Mach. And then badmouth lcnc any time the subject
> comes up.
>
> The people that want to make lcnc more popular could do something about it,
> I think.  Define a set of hardware that works and make their own
> distribution with only one user interface.  It doesn't surprise me that
> nobody wants to do this thankless task.
> Eric Keller
> Boalsburg, Pennsylvania
>
>
> ___
> Emc-users mailing list
> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>
>
>
> ___
> Emc-users mailing list
> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>


-- 
Addressee is the intended audience.
If you are not the addressee then my consent is not given for you to read
this email furthermore it is my wish you would close this without saving or
reading, and cease and desist from saving or opening my private
correspondence.
Thank you for honoring my wish.

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Re: [Emc-users] Running PathPilot on non-Tormach Machines

[ken.strauss]

"Define a set of hardware that works and make their own distribution with
only one user interface.  It doesn't surprise me that nobody wants to do
this thankless task."

Perhaps thankless but Tormach has built a presumably profitable business by
doing exactly that.

-Original Message-
From: Eric Keller  
Sent: January 26, 2023 10:01 AM
To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) 
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Running PathPilot on non-Tormach Machines

On Thu, Jan 26, 2023 at 8:24 AM  wrote:

> To me this is the minimum level of magic required to make a 
> commercially viable product. The vast majority of potential users are 
> uncomfortable (or don't want to bother) with manually modifying 
> configuration files. Of course the power of LinuxCNC is due to the 
> possibility of configuring things for all sorts of hardware. Without 
> magic the flexibility means that it will never be mainstream.

Nobody wants to give up the flexibility though.  The problem that lcnc has
is aptly summarized in this thread where someone gave up because they wanted
to use an Rpi4 and ethercat.  That's fine, and there are plenty of people
that have ethercat running with lcnc, maybe even on a Rpi4.  But both the
Rpi4 and ethercat require a bit of messing around, I think, and neither are
really mainline lcnc.  Getting a 3 axis running on a Mesa board on a PC with
decent latency (another sticking point, unfortunately) is trivial.  Someone
mentioned 4 axis.  The problem with that is that everyone has their own 4th
axis.  This is also the problem with lcnc in general.  I would say more than
90% of the problems I see with people having trouble setting up lcnc is they
have a totally nonstandard install that wouldn't work with any other
software either.  So they can't get it to work with lcnc, buy something
standard, and go install Mach. And then badmouth lcnc any time the subject
comes up.

The people that want to make lcnc more popular could do something about it,
I think.  Define a set of hardware that works and make their own
distribution with only one user interface.  It doesn't surprise me that
nobody wants to do this thankless task.
Eric Keller
Boalsburg, Pennsylvania


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Re: [Emc-users] Running PathPilot on non-Tormach Machines

[Eric Keller]

On Thu, Jan 26, 2023 at 8:24 AM  wrote:

> To me this is the minimum level of magic required to make a commercially
> viable product. The vast majority of potential users are uncomfortable (or
> don't want to bother) with manually modifying configuration files. Of course
> the power of LinuxCNC is due to the possibility of configuring things for
> all sorts of hardware. Without magic the flexibility means that it will
> never be mainstream.

Nobody wants to give up the flexibility though.  The problem that lcnc
has is aptly summarized in this thread where someone gave up because
they wanted to use an Rpi4 and ethercat.  That's fine, and there are
plenty of people that have ethercat running with lcnc, maybe even on a
Rpi4.  But both the Rpi4 and ethercat require a bit of messing around,
I think, and neither are really mainline lcnc.  Getting a 3 axis
running on a Mesa board on a PC with decent latency (another sticking
point, unfortunately) is trivial.  Someone mentioned 4 axis.  The
problem with that is that everyone has their own 4th axis.  This is
also the problem with lcnc in general.  I would say more than 90% of
the problems I see with people having trouble setting up lcnc is they
have a totally nonstandard install that wouldn't work with any other
software either.  So they can't get it to work with lcnc, buy
something standard, and go install Mach. And then badmouth lcnc any
time the subject comes up.

The people that want to make lcnc more popular could do something
about it, I think.  Define a set of hardware that works and make their
own distribution with only one user interface.  It doesn't surprise me
that nobody wants to do this thankless task.
Eric Keller
Boalsburg, Pennsylvania


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Re: [Emc-users] Running PathPilot on non-Tormach Machines

[ken.strauss]

Yes, my Tormach shipped with Mach3. The Mach3 configuration was "locked" so
you couldn't make any changes.

-Original Message-
From: Martin Dobbins  
Sent: January 26, 2023 9:29 AM
To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) 
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Running PathPilot on non-Tormach Machines

I remember when Tormach started, they were supplying cnc machines loaded
with Mach 3, they decided to go a different route as their product range
increased.

To quote part of their description:

"If it's available, it's included. We eliminated the headaches of costly
upgrades or a al carte pricing that holds advanced features behind a
paywall."

The nice thing about this is it is open source, you can get hold of it for
no cost and, if you are a geek, you can take a look at how it was all put
together. Nice!  Modify it also if you want. Nice!

Try doing that with a Windows based commercial system.

Martin

From: ken.stra...@sympatico.ca 
Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2023 7:20 AM
To: 'Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)' 
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Running PathPilot on non-Tormach Machines

Pathpilot is a single bootable image for a variety of Tormach hardware -- at
least 6 traditional CNC mills, a CNC router and at least 3 CNC lathes (not
all current products). It also support 3 different MESA boards, two
different ATC, two different 4th axis, two different probes, touch and
non-touch screens, several different pendants, accessory boards to control
relays to control bar pullers and other devices, automatic coolant pointing,
etc, etc. At boot the Mesa cards are updated to the correct firmware and the
appropriate HAL files are magically selected based on a few user questions
regarding the machine that is being controlled.

To me this is the minimum level of magic required to make a commercially
viable product. The vast majority of potential users are uncomfortable (or
don't want to bother) with manually modifying configuration files. Of course
the power of LinuxCNC is due to the possibility of configuring things for
all sorts of hardware. Without magic the flexibility means that it will
never be mainstream.

-Original Message-
From: John Dammeyer 
Sent: January 26, 2023 12:11 AM
To: 'Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)' 
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Running PathPilot on non-Tormach Machines

Well in real life neither Linux, MacOS or Windows is really a product.  For
that matter the number of times my Android phone wants to update/upgrade the
OS or apps is breathtaking so Android on the phone is also not a product.
It's an OS and a program that interfaces to the product which is the
hardware.  None of them run without hardware.

And Tormach also isn't selling LinuxCNC as a product.  They are selling
hardware that uses LinuxCNC that they have modified and due to the rules are
more or less required to keep it open source.. sort of.

I'm guessing that when someone downloads the Tormach version of LCNC that it
comes with the .hal and .ini files.  And in those files should be the
information that describes the hardware from an connection perspective?

So it should theoretically be possible to use that information to instead
talk to different hardware.  (the product).   But that information must be
available so you know whether to use an NC or NO limit/home switch.  Unless
you want to start editing .hal and .ini files.

I ordered a second cheap BoB so I have two identical units to plug into my
spare Mesa 7i92 which is connected to the Pi4 running LinuxCNC.

Perhaps you or someone can create a version of LinuxCNC that uses the
Tormach user interface that runs on a Pi4.  I have no idea how to do that.
I've never wanted to dive that deep into LinuxCNC.

John


> -Original Message-
> From: Chris Albertson [mailto:albertson.ch...@gmail.com]
> Sent: January-25-23 2:11 PM
> To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Running PathPilot on non-Tormach Machines
>
> The root of the issue here is that LCNC is not a product.  It is a 
> development environment where a person can, with some effort, develop 
> a product.
>
> Then the problem is that as a group, machinists tend not to have 
> computer skills or much interest in learning computer skills.  What we 
> see on this email list is the one-in-the-thousand exception.  Most 
> machinists just want to make parts and not futz with the tools, 
> especially if the tools involve computers.
>
> We are still in a transition period.  Today most machinists are older 
> men who actually hate and resent CNC.  They spent a lifetime learning 
> to turn handwheels and now some voodoo-magic boxes they don't 
> understand
completely
> outclasses their hard-won skill.The new class of machinist are
> different.  They are more like engineers then blue color factory 
> machinists.  These new guys see g-code as the product and parts as the 
> byproduct

Re: [Emc-users] Running PathPilot on non-Tormach Machines

[Martin Dobbins]

I remember when Tormach started, they were supplying cnc machines loaded with 
Mach 3, they decided to go a different route as their product range increased.

To quote part of their description:

"If it's available, it's included. We eliminated the headaches of costly 
upgrades or a al carte pricing that holds advanced features behind a paywall."

The nice thing about this is it is open source, you can get hold of it for no 
cost and, if you are a geek, you can take a look at how it was all put 
together. Nice!  Modify it also if you want. Nice!

Try doing that with a Windows based commercial system.

Martin

From: ken.stra...@sympatico.ca 
Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2023 7:20 AM
To: 'Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)' 
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Running PathPilot on non-Tormach Machines

Pathpilot is a single bootable image for a variety of Tormach hardware -- at
least 6 traditional CNC mills, a CNC router and at least 3 CNC lathes (not
all current products). It also support 3 different MESA boards, two
different ATC, two different 4th axis, two different probes, touch and
non-touch screens, several different pendants, accessory boards to control
relays to control bar pullers and other devices, automatic coolant pointing,
etc, etc. At boot the Mesa cards are updated to the correct firmware and the
appropriate HAL files are magically selected based on a few user questions
regarding the machine that is being controlled.

To me this is the minimum level of magic required to make a commercially
viable product. The vast majority of potential users are uncomfortable (or
don't want to bother) with manually modifying configuration files. Of course
the power of LinuxCNC is due to the possibility of configuring things for
all sorts of hardware. Without magic the flexibility means that it will
never be mainstream.

-Original Message-
From: John Dammeyer 
Sent: January 26, 2023 12:11 AM
To: 'Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)' 
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Running PathPilot on non-Tormach Machines

Well in real life neither Linux, MacOS or Windows is really a product.  For
that matter the number of times my Android phone wants to update/upgrade the
OS or apps is breathtaking so Android on the phone is also not a product.
It's an OS and a program that interfaces to the product which is the
hardware.  None of them run without hardware.

And Tormach also isn't selling LinuxCNC as a product.  They are selling
hardware that uses LinuxCNC that they have modified and due to the rules are
more or less required to keep it open source.. sort of.

I'm guessing that when someone downloads the Tormach version of LCNC that it
comes with the .hal and .ini files.  And in those files should be the
information that describes the hardware from an connection perspective?

So it should theoretically be possible to use that information to instead
talk to different hardware.  (the product).   But that information must be
available so you know whether to use an NC or NO limit/home switch.  Unless
you want to start editing .hal and .ini files.

I ordered a second cheap BoB so I have two identical units to plug into my
spare Mesa 7i92 which is connected to the Pi4 running LinuxCNC.

Perhaps you or someone can create a version of LinuxCNC that uses the
Tormach user interface that runs on a Pi4.  I have no idea how to do that.
I've never wanted to dive that deep into LinuxCNC.

John


> -Original Message-
> From: Chris Albertson [mailto:albertson.ch...@gmail.com]
> Sent: January-25-23 2:11 PM
> To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Running PathPilot on non-Tormach Machines
>
> The root of the issue here is that LCNC is not a product.  It is a
> development environment where a person can, with some effort, develop
> a product.
>
> Then the problem is that as a group, machinists tend not to have
> computer skills or much interest in learning computer skills.  What we
> see on this email list is the one-in-the-thousand exception.  Most
> machinists just want to make parts and not futz with the tools,
> especially if the tools involve computers.
>
> We are still in a transition period.  Today most machinists are older
> men who actually hate and resent CNC.  They spent a lifetime learning
> to turn handwheels and now some voodoo-magic boxes they don't understand
completely
> outclasses their hard-won skill.The new class of machinist are
> different.  They are more like engineers then blue color factory
> machinists.  These new guys see g-code as the product and parts as the
> byproduct and most of this new generation is not used to making
> anything by hand.
>
> We are still in the transitional period where we see a mix of the old
> guys who have adapted to new ways, new people who have never made
> anything by hand and the few of us on this list who actualy like to mess
with tool

Re: [Emc-users] Running PathPilot on non-Tormach Machines

[ken.strauss]

Pathpilot is a single bootable image for a variety of Tormach hardware -- at
least 6 traditional CNC mills, a CNC router and at least 3 CNC lathes (not
all current products). It also support 3 different MESA boards, two
different ATC, two different 4th axis, two different probes, touch and
non-touch screens, several different pendants, accessory boards to control
relays to control bar pullers and other devices, automatic coolant pointing,
etc, etc. At boot the Mesa cards are updated to the correct firmware and the
appropriate HAL files are magically selected based on a few user questions
regarding the machine that is being controlled. 

To me this is the minimum level of magic required to make a commercially
viable product. The vast majority of potential users are uncomfortable (or
don't want to bother) with manually modifying configuration files. Of course
the power of LinuxCNC is due to the possibility of configuring things for
all sorts of hardware. Without magic the flexibility means that it will
never be mainstream.

-Original Message-
From: John Dammeyer  
Sent: January 26, 2023 12:11 AM
To: 'Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)' 
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Running PathPilot on non-Tormach Machines

Well in real life neither Linux, MacOS or Windows is really a product.  For
that matter the number of times my Android phone wants to update/upgrade the
OS or apps is breathtaking so Android on the phone is also not a product.
It's an OS and a program that interfaces to the product which is the
hardware.  None of them run without hardware.  

And Tormach also isn't selling LinuxCNC as a product.  They are selling
hardware that uses LinuxCNC that they have modified and due to the rules are
more or less required to keep it open source.. sort of.

I'm guessing that when someone downloads the Tormach version of LCNC that it
comes with the .hal and .ini files.  And in those files should be the
information that describes the hardware from an connection perspective?

So it should theoretically be possible to use that information to instead
talk to different hardware.  (the product).   But that information must be
available so you know whether to use an NC or NO limit/home switch.  Unless
you want to start editing .hal and .ini files.

I ordered a second cheap BoB so I have two identical units to plug into my
spare Mesa 7i92 which is connected to the Pi4 running LinuxCNC.  

Perhaps you or someone can create a version of LinuxCNC that uses the
Tormach user interface that runs on a Pi4.  I have no idea how to do that.
I've never wanted to dive that deep into LinuxCNC.

John


> -Original Message-
> From: Chris Albertson [mailto:albertson.ch...@gmail.com]
> Sent: January-25-23 2:11 PM
> To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Running PathPilot on non-Tormach Machines
> 
> The root of the issue here is that LCNC is not a product.  It is a 
> development environment where a person can, with some effort, develop 
> a product.
> 
> Then the problem is that as a group, machinists tend not to have 
> computer skills or much interest in learning computer skills.  What we 
> see on this email list is the one-in-the-thousand exception.  Most 
> machinists just want to make parts and not futz with the tools, 
> especially if the tools involve computers.
> 
> We are still in a transition period.  Today most machinists are older 
> men who actually hate and resent CNC.  They spent a lifetime learning 
> to turn handwheels and now some voodoo-magic boxes they don't understand
completely
> outclasses their hard-won skill.The new class of machinist are
> different.  They are more like engineers then blue color factory 
> machinists.  These new guys see g-code as the product and parts as the 
> byproduct and most of this new generation is not used to making 
> anything by hand.
> 
> We are still in the transitional period where we see a mix of the old 
> guys who have adapted to new ways, new people who have never made 
> anything by hand and the few of us on this list who actualy like to mess
with tools.
> 
> Torrmach did a good thing by turning LCNC into a marketable product.
> 
> On Wed, Jan 25, 2023 at 1:30 PM John Dammeyer 
> wrote:
> 
> > Hi Todd,
> > First of all that LCNC can run 8 head/spindle gang... machine has 
> > nothing to do with the subject line.
> >
> > And the grumble I often hear from people who have attempted or 
> > looked into LinuxCNC for their system is nicely summarized by your
statement:
> >
> > " Linuxcnc isn't for everyone.  The companies willing to support and 
> > hold the hand of a green noob who isn't interested in learning 
> > anything, charge accordingly."
> >
> > Or as generally interpreted by most:  "F Off if you are a green noob 
> > and can't figure

Re: [Emc-users] Running PathPilot on non-Tormach Machines

[John Dammeyer]

Well in real life neither Linux, MacOS or Windows is really a product.  For 
that matter the number of times my Android phone wants to update/upgrade the OS 
or apps is breathtaking so Android on the phone is also not a product.  It's an 
OS and a program that interfaces to the product which is the hardware.  None of 
them run without hardware.  

And Tormach also isn't selling LinuxCNC as a product.  They are selling 
hardware that uses LinuxCNC that they have modified and due to the rules are 
more or less required to keep it open source.. sort of.

I'm guessing that when someone downloads the Tormach version of LCNC that it 
comes with the .hal and .ini files.  And in those files should be the 
information that describes the hardware from an connection perspective?

So it should theoretically be possible to use that information to instead talk 
to different hardware.  (the product).   But that information must be available 
so you know whether to use an NC or NO limit/home switch.  Unless you want to 
start editing .hal and .ini files.

I ordered a second cheap BoB so I have two identical units to plug into my 
spare Mesa 7i92 which is connected to the Pi4 running LinuxCNC.  

Perhaps you or someone can create a version of LinuxCNC that uses the Tormach 
user interface that runs on a Pi4.  I have no idea how to do that.  I've never 
wanted to dive that deep into LinuxCNC.

John


> -Original Message-
> From: Chris Albertson [mailto:albertson.ch...@gmail.com]
> Sent: January-25-23 2:11 PM
> To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Running PathPilot on non-Tormach Machines
> 
> The root of the issue here is that LCNC is not a product.  It is a
> development environment where a person can, with some effort, develop a
> product.
> 
> Then the problem is that as a group, machinists tend not to have computer
> skills or much interest in learning computer skills.  What we see on this
> email list is the one-in-the-thousand exception.  Most machinists just want
> to make parts and not futz with the tools, especially if the tools involve
> computers.
> 
> We are still in a transition period.  Today most machinists are older men
> who actually hate and resent CNC.  They spent a lifetime learning to turn
> handwheels and now some voodoo-magic boxes they don't understand completely
> outclasses their hard-won skill.The new class of machinist are
> different.  They are more like engineers then blue color factory
> machinists.  These new guys see g-code as the product and parts as the
> byproduct and most of this new generation is not used to making anything by
> hand.
> 
> We are still in the transitional period where we see a mix of the old guys
> who have adapted to new ways, new people who have never made anything by
> hand and the few of us on this list who actualy like to mess with tools.
> 
> Torrmach did a good thing by turning LCNC into a marketable product.
> 
> On Wed, Jan 25, 2023 at 1:30 PM John Dammeyer 
> wrote:
> 
> > Hi Todd,
> > First of all that LCNC can run 8 head/spindle gang... machine has nothing
> > to do with the subject line.
> >
> > And the grumble I often hear from people who have attempted or looked into
> > LinuxCNC for their system is nicely summarized by your statement:
> >
> > " Linuxcnc isn't for everyone.  The companies willing to support and hold
> > the hand of a green noob who isn't interested in learning anything, charge
> > accordingly."
> >
> > Or as generally interpreted by most:  "F Off if you are a green noob and
> > can't figure out LCNC or Linux"
> >
> > Personally I think the theme of the original post and conversation was how
> > easy is it to create a turnkey system that runs Path Pilot on non Tormach
> > Hardware.
> >
> > IMHO, a lot more people would be interested in LCNC if there was a simple
> > easy to follow, step by step method of setting up a 4 axis mill.  The
> > menu's for setting up motors etc. in AXIS either for the parallel port
> > (almost extinct) or the MESA boards is really good but doesn't go far
> > enough.
> >
> > There are a few youtube videos out there that show how to select motors
> > based on mass of the system and acme or ball screw or belt reduction.  But
> > the learning curve is steep and is just easier with systems that are not
> > LCNC.
> >
> > John
> >
> > > -Original Message-
> > > From: Todd Zuercher [mailto:to...@pgrahamdunn.com]
> > > Sent: January-24-23 11:45 AM
> > > To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> > > Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Running PathPilot on non-Tormach Machines
> > >
> > > I'd like see the retrofit CNC pac

Re: [Emc-users] Running PathPilot on non-Tormach Machines

[gene heskett]

hine Controller (EMC)
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Running PathPilot on non-Tormach Machines

I'd like see the retrofit CNC package on the market (other than

Linuxcnc) that can run an 8 head/spindle gang

router, with individual Z axis and VFD control for each spindle.  I'm

sorry but freedom of customization comes

at the cost of complexity.  If you want the freedom to be able to

use/run almost anything, you're going to

have to know something about both the hardware and software.  You want

simple buy some simple 4 axis all

in one stepper box and plug it in.

Linuxcnc isn't for everyone.  The companies willing to support and hold

the hand of a green noob who isn't

interested in learning anything, charge accordingly.

Todd Zuercher
P. Graham Dunn Inc.
630 Henry Street
Dalton, Ohio 44618
Phone:  (330)828-2105ext. 2031

-Original Message-
From: John Dammeyer 
Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2023 1:39 PM
To: 'Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)' 
From: Andy Pugh [mailto:bodge...@gmail.com]

On 24 Jan 2023, at 15:38, ken.stra...@sympatico.ca wrote:

But seriously, in my opinion a major impediment to the widescale
adoption of LinuxCNC is the lack of an appealing and intuitive UI.


There are around 12 user interfaces. Are you saying that they are

_all_ terrible?




I'll jump in on this one.   They are _all_ great and they are _all_

terrible.


Imagine your average home shop machinist.  His kids are finally out the

door and he's at an income level

where he's got his lathe with a DRO and he just bought a small mill.  He

starts looking at CNC.


At work and at home he uses Windows.  And he's bought into the free

Fusion 360 con job for CAD/CAM and is

now looking at how to add CNC to his mill.

OMG.  What a hodge podge of systems.

So he starts on the various groups looking for what is available

including even AliExpress which has CNC boxes

for $300.

Not having used CNC before and not knowing anyone local the youtube

videos become his other source of

information and education.  The most interesting ones appear to be ones

with 10's of thousands of

subscribers that in fact are really long mostly to have multiple

advertisers.  But at the time he's not aware that

the videos are short on information, long on con for supporting lots of

advertising.


IMHO, the more advertisements in really long videos the more likely the

poster is there to monetize than to

actually provide useful help.   How interesting to watch a milling

cutter for 2 minutes go back and forth

making chips.  Oh, and now another advertisement.

So someone on a forum recommends MESA.


https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fstore.mesanet.com%2Findex.php%3F



route%3Dproduct%2Fproduct%26path%3D83_84%26product_id%3D215=05%7C01%7Ctoddz%40pgra

hamdunn.com

%7C040364ad9343477cf2fb08dafe3a6977%7C5758544c573f47cebee96c3e0806fb43%7C0%



7C0%7C638101824085494729%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiL



CJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C=QsuaNDdgukaAklsVBzraskOqkJrgDYP%2B7

e9BcWa62nI%3D=0
Hmm.  Out of stock.  And even if it were, there's no diagram like the

ACORN one.  So no idea where to start...


Oh but then someone suggests


https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fstore.mesanet.com%2Findex.php%3F



route%3Dproduct%2Fproduct%26product_id%3D381%26search%3D7i92=05%7C01%7Ctoddz%40pgra

hamdunn.com

%7C040364ad9343477cf2fb08dafe3a6977%7C5758544c573f47cebee96c3e0806fb43%7C0%



7C0%7C638101824085494729%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiL



CJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C=lNSWiCwuqqIMsYjHAEfR9JqJAjsWNK9DeF

9GsKztVJg%3D=0

Now I need to wire to it.  A suggestion comes up for two of these and

cheap too.



https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.aliexpress.com%2Fitem%2F33

015669728.html=05%7C01%7Ctoddz%40pgrahamdunn.com

%7C040364ad9343477cf2fb08dafe3a697



7%7C5758544c573f47cebee96c3e0806fb43%7C0%7C0%7C638101824085494729%7CUnknown%7CTWFpb



GZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7

C=LclFcxiqe05h7ZMNmrFS3%2Fri1wQ7cRfBl1KFG0z51OQ%3D=0

Next motors and power supplies.  What to buy?  People rave about these

new step-servos.  One brand in

particular.  But what size?  Direct coupled or with belts and pulleys?

So back to the internet and youtube.  Ah, this guy has a mill like

mine.  He used the Leadshine step servos and

ACORN.   Ordered, installed as per the youtube video.  Making chips.

And he doesn't have to wade through deciding which of _all_ 12 or so

LCNC user interfaces to use.


The above is I think the typical thought processes.

I'm still using AXIS.  Can't be bothered to spend the time trying to

figure out whether I should spend $400 for a

touch screen HDMI 21" screen or some other user interface.  Really miss

the MACROs from MACH3 though.  I

think that's what's called the conversa

Re: [Emc-users] Running PathPilot on non-Tormach Machines

[ken.strauss]

There is no 5-axis Tormach so I doubt it. Certainly the screen layout would
have to change significantly to accommodate the display of the 5th axis.
See https://tormach.com/machines/mills/770m.html for an example screen shot
showing the conversational screen for thread milling.

-Original Message-
From: andrew beck  
Sent: January 25, 2023 8:32 PM
To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) 
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Running PathPilot on non-Tormach Machines

Ken can pathpilot do 5 axis?



On Thu, 26 Jan 2023, 12:29 ,  wrote:

> My understanding is that it is open source.
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Murray Lindeblom 
> Sent: January 25, 2023 5:48 PM
> To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) 
> 
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Running PathPilot on non-Tormach Machines
>
> The question I would like answered is does Tormack make PathPilot an 
> open source project or is it a proprietary wrapper on Linuxcnc?
> Murray
>
> On Wed, 25 Jan 2023 at 16:35, Linden via Emc-users < 
> emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net> wrote:
>
> > Well said. I see the same both in Europe and North America in all 
> > the various fields of industry I deal with.
> >
> > On January 25, 2023 2:11:20 p.m. PST, Chris Albertson < 
> > albertson.ch...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >The root of the issue here is that LCNC is not a product.  It is a 
> > >development environment where a person can, with some effort, 
> > >develop a product.
> > >
> > >Then the problem is that as a group, machinists tend not to have 
> > >computer skills or much interest in learning computer skills.  What 
> > >we see on this email list is the one-in-the-thousand exception.  
> > >Most machinists just
> > want
> > >to make parts and not futz with the tools, especially if the tools 
> > >involve computers.
> > >
> > >We are still in a transition period.  Today most machinists are 
> > >older men who actually hate and resent CNC.  They spent a lifetime 
> > >learning to turn handwheels and now some voodoo-magic boxes they 
> > >don't understand
> > completely
> > >outclasses their hard-won skill.The new class of machinist are
> > >different.  They are more like engineers then blue color factory 
> > >machinists.  These new guys see g-code as the product and parts as 
> > >the byproduct and most of this new generation is not used to making 
> > >anything
> > by
> > >hand.
> > >
> > >We are still in the transitional period where we see a mix of the 
> > >old guys who have adapted to new ways, new people who have never 
> > >made anything by hand and the few of us on this list who actualy 
> > >like to mess
> with tools.
> > >
> > >Torrmach did a good thing by turning LCNC into a marketable product.
> > >
> > >On Wed, Jan 25, 2023 at 1:30 PM John Dammeyer 
> > >
> > >wrote:
> > >
> > >> Hi Todd,
> > >> First of all that LCNC can run 8 head/spindle gang... machine has
> > nothing
> > >> to do with the subject line.
> > >>
> > >> And the grumble I often hear from people who have attempted or 
> > >> looked
> > into
> > >> LinuxCNC for their system is nicely summarized by your statement:
> > >>
> > >> " Linuxcnc isn't for everyone.  The companies willing to support 
> > >> and
> > hold
> > >> the hand of a green noob who isn't interested in learning 
> > >> anything,
> > charge
> > >> accordingly."
> > >>
> > >> Or as generally interpreted by most:  "F Off if you are a green 
> > >> noob and can't figure out LCNC or Linux"
> > >>
> > >> Personally I think the theme of the original post and 
> > >> conversation was
> > how
> > >> easy is it to create a turnkey system that runs Path Pilot on non
> > Tormach
> > >> Hardware.
> > >>
> > >> IMHO, a lot more people would be interested in LCNC if there was 
> > >> a
> > simple
> > >> easy to follow, step by step method of setting up a 4 axis mill.
> > >> The menu's for setting up motors etc. in AXIS either for the 
> > >> parallel port (almost extinct) or the MESA boards is really good 
> > >> but doesn't go far enough.
> > >>
> > >> There are a few youtube videos out there that show how to select 
> > >> motors based on mass of the system and acme or ball screw or belt
> reduction.
> >

Re: [Emc-users] Running PathPilot on non-Tormach Machines

[andrew beck]

Ken can pathpilot do 5 axis?



On Thu, 26 Jan 2023, 12:29 ,  wrote:

> My understanding is that it is open source.
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Murray Lindeblom 
> Sent: January 25, 2023 5:48 PM
> To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) 
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Running PathPilot on non-Tormach Machines
>
> The question I would like answered is does Tormack make PathPilot an open
> source project or is it a proprietary wrapper on Linuxcnc?
> Murray
>
> On Wed, 25 Jan 2023 at 16:35, Linden via Emc-users <
> emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net> wrote:
>
> > Well said. I see the same both in Europe and North America in all the
> > various fields of industry I deal with.
> >
> > On January 25, 2023 2:11:20 p.m. PST, Chris Albertson <
> > albertson.ch...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >The root of the issue here is that LCNC is not a product.  It is a
> > >development environment where a person can, with some effort, develop
> > >a product.
> > >
> > >Then the problem is that as a group, machinists tend not to have
> > >computer skills or much interest in learning computer skills.  What
> > >we see on this email list is the one-in-the-thousand exception.  Most
> > >machinists just
> > want
> > >to make parts and not futz with the tools, especially if the tools
> > >involve computers.
> > >
> > >We are still in a transition period.  Today most machinists are older
> > >men who actually hate and resent CNC.  They spent a lifetime learning
> > >to turn handwheels and now some voodoo-magic boxes they don't
> > >understand
> > completely
> > >outclasses their hard-won skill.The new class of machinist are
> > >different.  They are more like engineers then blue color factory
> > >machinists.  These new guys see g-code as the product and parts as
> > >the byproduct and most of this new generation is not used to making
> > >anything
> > by
> > >hand.
> > >
> > >We are still in the transitional period where we see a mix of the old
> > >guys who have adapted to new ways, new people who have never made
> > >anything by hand and the few of us on this list who actualy like to mess
> with tools.
> > >
> > >Torrmach did a good thing by turning LCNC into a marketable product.
> > >
> > >On Wed, Jan 25, 2023 at 1:30 PM John Dammeyer
> > >
> > >wrote:
> > >
> > >> Hi Todd,
> > >> First of all that LCNC can run 8 head/spindle gang... machine has
> > nothing
> > >> to do with the subject line.
> > >>
> > >> And the grumble I often hear from people who have attempted or
> > >> looked
> > into
> > >> LinuxCNC for their system is nicely summarized by your statement:
> > >>
> > >> " Linuxcnc isn't for everyone.  The companies willing to support
> > >> and
> > hold
> > >> the hand of a green noob who isn't interested in learning anything,
> > charge
> > >> accordingly."
> > >>
> > >> Or as generally interpreted by most:  "F Off if you are a green
> > >> noob and can't figure out LCNC or Linux"
> > >>
> > >> Personally I think the theme of the original post and conversation
> > >> was
> > how
> > >> easy is it to create a turnkey system that runs Path Pilot on non
> > Tormach
> > >> Hardware.
> > >>
> > >> IMHO, a lot more people would be interested in LCNC if there was a
> > simple
> > >> easy to follow, step by step method of setting up a 4 axis mill.
> > >> The menu's for setting up motors etc. in AXIS either for the
> > >> parallel port (almost extinct) or the MESA boards is really good
> > >> but doesn't go far enough.
> > >>
> > >> There are a few youtube videos out there that show how to select
> > >> motors based on mass of the system and acme or ball screw or belt
> reduction.
> > But
> > >> the learning curve is steep and is just easier with systems that
> > >> are not LCNC.
> > >>
> > >> John
> > >>
> > >> > -Original Message-
> > >> > From: Todd Zuercher [mailto:to...@pgrahamdunn.com]
> > >> > Sent: January-24-23 11:45 AM
> > >> > To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> > >> > Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Running PathPilot on non-Tormach
> > >> > Machines
>

Re: [Emc-users] Running PathPilot on non-Tormach Machines

[ken.strauss]

My understanding is that it is open source.

-Original Message-
From: Murray Lindeblom  
Sent: January 25, 2023 5:48 PM
To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) 
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Running PathPilot on non-Tormach Machines

The question I would like answered is does Tormack make PathPilot an open
source project or is it a proprietary wrapper on Linuxcnc?
Murray

On Wed, 25 Jan 2023 at 16:35, Linden via Emc-users <
emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net> wrote:

> Well said. I see the same both in Europe and North America in all the 
> various fields of industry I deal with.
>
> On January 25, 2023 2:11:20 p.m. PST, Chris Albertson < 
> albertson.ch...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >The root of the issue here is that LCNC is not a product.  It is a 
> >development environment where a person can, with some effort, develop 
> >a product.
> >
> >Then the problem is that as a group, machinists tend not to have 
> >computer skills or much interest in learning computer skills.  What 
> >we see on this email list is the one-in-the-thousand exception.  Most 
> >machinists just
> want
> >to make parts and not futz with the tools, especially if the tools 
> >involve computers.
> >
> >We are still in a transition period.  Today most machinists are older 
> >men who actually hate and resent CNC.  They spent a lifetime learning 
> >to turn handwheels and now some voodoo-magic boxes they don't 
> >understand
> completely
> >outclasses their hard-won skill.The new class of machinist are
> >different.  They are more like engineers then blue color factory 
> >machinists.  These new guys see g-code as the product and parts as 
> >the byproduct and most of this new generation is not used to making 
> >anything
> by
> >hand.
> >
> >We are still in the transitional period where we see a mix of the old 
> >guys who have adapted to new ways, new people who have never made 
> >anything by hand and the few of us on this list who actualy like to mess
with tools.
> >
> >Torrmach did a good thing by turning LCNC into a marketable product.
> >
> >On Wed, Jan 25, 2023 at 1:30 PM John Dammeyer 
> >
> >wrote:
> >
> >> Hi Todd,
> >> First of all that LCNC can run 8 head/spindle gang... machine has
> nothing
> >> to do with the subject line.
> >>
> >> And the grumble I often hear from people who have attempted or 
> >> looked
> into
> >> LinuxCNC for their system is nicely summarized by your statement:
> >>
> >> " Linuxcnc isn't for everyone.  The companies willing to support 
> >> and
> hold
> >> the hand of a green noob who isn't interested in learning anything,
> charge
> >> accordingly."
> >>
> >> Or as generally interpreted by most:  "F Off if you are a green 
> >> noob and can't figure out LCNC or Linux"
> >>
> >> Personally I think the theme of the original post and conversation 
> >> was
> how
> >> easy is it to create a turnkey system that runs Path Pilot on non
> Tormach
> >> Hardware.
> >>
> >> IMHO, a lot more people would be interested in LCNC if there was a
> simple
> >> easy to follow, step by step method of setting up a 4 axis mill.  
> >> The menu's for setting up motors etc. in AXIS either for the 
> >> parallel port (almost extinct) or the MESA boards is really good 
> >> but doesn't go far enough.
> >>
> >> There are a few youtube videos out there that show how to select 
> >> motors based on mass of the system and acme or ball screw or belt
reduction.
> But
> >> the learning curve is steep and is just easier with systems that 
> >> are not LCNC.
> >>
> >> John
> >>
> >> > -Original Message-
> >> > From: Todd Zuercher [mailto:to...@pgrahamdunn.com]
> >> > Sent: January-24-23 11:45 AM
> >> > To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> >> > Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Running PathPilot on non-Tormach 
> >> > Machines
> >> >
> >> > I'd like see the retrofit CNC package on the market (other than
> >> Linuxcnc) that can run an 8 head/spindle gang
> >> > router, with individual Z axis and VFD control for each spindle.  
> >> > I'm
> >> sorry but freedom of customization comes
> >> > at the cost of complexity.  If you want the freedom to be able to
> >> use/run almost anything, you're going to
> >> > have to know something about both the hardware and software.  You 
> >> > want

Re: [Emc-users] Running PathPilot on non-Tormach Machines

[Murray Lindeblom]

The question I would like answered is does Tormack make PathPilot an open
source project or is it a proprietary wrapper on Linuxcnc?
Murray

On Wed, 25 Jan 2023 at 16:35, Linden via Emc-users <
emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net> wrote:

> Well said. I see the same both in Europe and North America in all the
> various fields of industry I deal with.
>
> On January 25, 2023 2:11:20 p.m. PST, Chris Albertson <
> albertson.ch...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >The root of the issue here is that LCNC is not a product.  It is a
> >development environment where a person can, with some effort, develop a
> >product.
> >
> >Then the problem is that as a group, machinists tend not to have computer
> >skills or much interest in learning computer skills.  What we see on this
> >email list is the one-in-the-thousand exception.  Most machinists just
> want
> >to make parts and not futz with the tools, especially if the tools involve
> >computers.
> >
> >We are still in a transition period.  Today most machinists are older men
> >who actually hate and resent CNC.  They spent a lifetime learning to turn
> >handwheels and now some voodoo-magic boxes they don't understand
> completely
> >outclasses their hard-won skill.The new class of machinist are
> >different.  They are more like engineers then blue color factory
> >machinists.  These new guys see g-code as the product and parts as the
> >byproduct and most of this new generation is not used to making anything
> by
> >hand.
> >
> >We are still in the transitional period where we see a mix of the old guys
> >who have adapted to new ways, new people who have never made anything by
> >hand and the few of us on this list who actualy like to mess with tools.
> >
> >Torrmach did a good thing by turning LCNC into a marketable product.
> >
> >On Wed, Jan 25, 2023 at 1:30 PM John Dammeyer 
> >wrote:
> >
> >> Hi Todd,
> >> First of all that LCNC can run 8 head/spindle gang... machine has
> nothing
> >> to do with the subject line.
> >>
> >> And the grumble I often hear from people who have attempted or looked
> into
> >> LinuxCNC for their system is nicely summarized by your statement:
> >>
> >> " Linuxcnc isn't for everyone.  The companies willing to support and
> hold
> >> the hand of a green noob who isn't interested in learning anything,
> charge
> >> accordingly."
> >>
> >> Or as generally interpreted by most:  "F Off if you are a green noob and
> >> can't figure out LCNC or Linux"
> >>
> >> Personally I think the theme of the original post and conversation was
> how
> >> easy is it to create a turnkey system that runs Path Pilot on non
> Tormach
> >> Hardware.
> >>
> >> IMHO, a lot more people would be interested in LCNC if there was a
> simple
> >> easy to follow, step by step method of setting up a 4 axis mill.  The
> >> menu's for setting up motors etc. in AXIS either for the parallel port
> >> (almost extinct) or the MESA boards is really good but doesn't go far
> >> enough.
> >>
> >> There are a few youtube videos out there that show how to select motors
> >> based on mass of the system and acme or ball screw or belt reduction.
> But
> >> the learning curve is steep and is just easier with systems that are not
> >> LCNC.
> >>
> >> John
> >>
> >> > -Original Message-
> >> > From: Todd Zuercher [mailto:to...@pgrahamdunn.com]
> >> > Sent: January-24-23 11:45 AM
> >> > To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> >> > Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Running PathPilot on non-Tormach Machines
> >> >
> >> > I'd like see the retrofit CNC package on the market (other than
> >> Linuxcnc) that can run an 8 head/spindle gang
> >> > router, with individual Z axis and VFD control for each spindle.  I'm
> >> sorry but freedom of customization comes
> >> > at the cost of complexity.  If you want the freedom to be able to
> >> use/run almost anything, you're going to
> >> > have to know something about both the hardware and software.  You want
> >> simple buy some simple 4 axis all
> >> > in one stepper box and plug it in.
> >> >
> >> > Linuxcnc isn't for everyone.  The companies willing to support and
> hold
> >> the hand of a green noob who isn't
> >> > interested in learning anything, charge accordingly.
> >> >
> >> > Todd Zuercher
> >&g

Re: [Emc-users] Running PathPilot on non-Tormach Machines

[Linden via Emc-users]

Well said. I see the same both in Europe and North America in all the various 
fields of industry I deal with. 

On January 25, 2023 2:11:20 p.m. PST, Chris Albertson 
 wrote:
>The root of the issue here is that LCNC is not a product.  It is a
>development environment where a person can, with some effort, develop a
>product.
>
>Then the problem is that as a group, machinists tend not to have computer
>skills or much interest in learning computer skills.  What we see on this
>email list is the one-in-the-thousand exception.  Most machinists just want
>to make parts and not futz with the tools, especially if the tools involve
>computers.
>
>We are still in a transition period.  Today most machinists are older men
>who actually hate and resent CNC.  They spent a lifetime learning to turn
>handwheels and now some voodoo-magic boxes they don't understand completely
>outclasses their hard-won skill.The new class of machinist are
>different.  They are more like engineers then blue color factory
>machinists.  These new guys see g-code as the product and parts as the
>byproduct and most of this new generation is not used to making anything by
>hand.
>
>We are still in the transitional period where we see a mix of the old guys
>who have adapted to new ways, new people who have never made anything by
>hand and the few of us on this list who actualy like to mess with tools.
>
>Torrmach did a good thing by turning LCNC into a marketable product.
>
>On Wed, Jan 25, 2023 at 1:30 PM John Dammeyer 
>wrote:
>
>> Hi Todd,
>> First of all that LCNC can run 8 head/spindle gang... machine has nothing
>> to do with the subject line.
>>
>> And the grumble I often hear from people who have attempted or looked into
>> LinuxCNC for their system is nicely summarized by your statement:
>>
>> " Linuxcnc isn't for everyone.  The companies willing to support and hold
>> the hand of a green noob who isn't interested in learning anything, charge
>> accordingly."
>>
>> Or as generally interpreted by most:  "F Off if you are a green noob and
>> can't figure out LCNC or Linux"
>>
>> Personally I think the theme of the original post and conversation was how
>> easy is it to create a turnkey system that runs Path Pilot on non Tormach
>> Hardware.
>>
>> IMHO, a lot more people would be interested in LCNC if there was a simple
>> easy to follow, step by step method of setting up a 4 axis mill.  The
>> menu's for setting up motors etc. in AXIS either for the parallel port
>> (almost extinct) or the MESA boards is really good but doesn't go far
>> enough.
>>
>> There are a few youtube videos out there that show how to select motors
>> based on mass of the system and acme or ball screw or belt reduction.  But
>> the learning curve is steep and is just easier with systems that are not
>> LCNC.
>>
>> John
>>
>> > -Original Message-
>> > From: Todd Zuercher [mailto:to...@pgrahamdunn.com]
>> > Sent: January-24-23 11:45 AM
>> > To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
>> > Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Running PathPilot on non-Tormach Machines
>> >
>> > I'd like see the retrofit CNC package on the market (other than
>> Linuxcnc) that can run an 8 head/spindle gang
>> > router, with individual Z axis and VFD control for each spindle.  I'm
>> sorry but freedom of customization comes
>> > at the cost of complexity.  If you want the freedom to be able to
>> use/run almost anything, you're going to
>> > have to know something about both the hardware and software.  You want
>> simple buy some simple 4 axis all
>> > in one stepper box and plug it in.
>> >
>> > Linuxcnc isn't for everyone.  The companies willing to support and hold
>> the hand of a green noob who isn't
>> > interested in learning anything, charge accordingly.
>> >
>> > Todd Zuercher
>> > P. Graham Dunn Inc.
>> > 630 Henry Street
>> > Dalton, Ohio 44618
>> > Phone:  (330)828-2105ext. 2031
>> >
>> > -Original Message-
>> > From: John Dammeyer 
>> > Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2023 1:39 PM
>> > To: 'Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)' > >
>> > Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Running PathPilot on non-Tormach Machines
>> >
>> > [EXTERNAL EMAIL] Be sure links are safe.
>> >
>> > > From: Andy Pugh [mailto:bodge...@gmail.com]
>> > > > On 24 Jan 2023, at 15:38, ken.stra...@sympatico.ca wrote:
>> > > >
>> > > > But seriously, in my opinion a major impediment to the wid

Re: [Emc-users] Running PathPilot on non-Tormach Machines

[Chris Albertson]

The root of the issue here is that LCNC is not a product.  It is a
development environment where a person can, with some effort, develop a
product.

Then the problem is that as a group, machinists tend not to have computer
skills or much interest in learning computer skills.  What we see on this
email list is the one-in-the-thousand exception.  Most machinists just want
to make parts and not futz with the tools, especially if the tools involve
computers.

We are still in a transition period.  Today most machinists are older men
who actually hate and resent CNC.  They spent a lifetime learning to turn
handwheels and now some voodoo-magic boxes they don't understand completely
outclasses their hard-won skill.The new class of machinist are
different.  They are more like engineers then blue color factory
machinists.  These new guys see g-code as the product and parts as the
byproduct and most of this new generation is not used to making anything by
hand.

We are still in the transitional period where we see a mix of the old guys
who have adapted to new ways, new people who have never made anything by
hand and the few of us on this list who actualy like to mess with tools.

Torrmach did a good thing by turning LCNC into a marketable product.

On Wed, Jan 25, 2023 at 1:30 PM John Dammeyer 
wrote:

> Hi Todd,
> First of all that LCNC can run 8 head/spindle gang... machine has nothing
> to do with the subject line.
>
> And the grumble I often hear from people who have attempted or looked into
> LinuxCNC for their system is nicely summarized by your statement:
>
> " Linuxcnc isn't for everyone.  The companies willing to support and hold
> the hand of a green noob who isn't interested in learning anything, charge
> accordingly."
>
> Or as generally interpreted by most:  "F Off if you are a green noob and
> can't figure out LCNC or Linux"
>
> Personally I think the theme of the original post and conversation was how
> easy is it to create a turnkey system that runs Path Pilot on non Tormach
> Hardware.
>
> IMHO, a lot more people would be interested in LCNC if there was a simple
> easy to follow, step by step method of setting up a 4 axis mill.  The
> menu's for setting up motors etc. in AXIS either for the parallel port
> (almost extinct) or the MESA boards is really good but doesn't go far
> enough.
>
> There are a few youtube videos out there that show how to select motors
> based on mass of the system and acme or ball screw or belt reduction.  But
> the learning curve is steep and is just easier with systems that are not
> LCNC.
>
> John
>
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Todd Zuercher [mailto:to...@pgrahamdunn.com]
> > Sent: January-24-23 11:45 AM
> > To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> > Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Running PathPilot on non-Tormach Machines
> >
> > I'd like see the retrofit CNC package on the market (other than
> Linuxcnc) that can run an 8 head/spindle gang
> > router, with individual Z axis and VFD control for each spindle.  I'm
> sorry but freedom of customization comes
> > at the cost of complexity.  If you want the freedom to be able to
> use/run almost anything, you're going to
> > have to know something about both the hardware and software.  You want
> simple buy some simple 4 axis all
> > in one stepper box and plug it in.
> >
> > Linuxcnc isn't for everyone.  The companies willing to support and hold
> the hand of a green noob who isn't
> > interested in learning anything, charge accordingly.
> >
> > Todd Zuercher
> > P. Graham Dunn Inc.
> > 630 Henry Street
> > Dalton, Ohio 44618
> > Phone:  (330)828-2105ext. 2031
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: John Dammeyer 
> > Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2023 1:39 PM
> > To: 'Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)'  >
> > Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Running PathPilot on non-Tormach Machines
> >
> > [EXTERNAL EMAIL] Be sure links are safe.
> >
> > > From: Andy Pugh [mailto:bodge...@gmail.com]
> > > > On 24 Jan 2023, at 15:38, ken.stra...@sympatico.ca wrote:
> > > >
> > > > But seriously, in my opinion a major impediment to the widescale
> > > > adoption of LinuxCNC is the lack of an appealing and intuitive UI.
> > >
> > > There are around 12 user interfaces. Are you saying that they are
> _all_ terrible?
> > >
> >
> > I'll jump in on this one.   They are _all_ great and they are _all_
> terrible.
> >
> > Imagine your average home shop machinist.  His kids are finally out the
> door and he's at an income level
> > where he's got his lathe with a DRO and he just bought a small mill.  He
> starts looking at C

Re: [Emc-users] Running PathPilot on non-Tormach Machines

[John Dammeyer]

Hi Todd,
First of all that LCNC can run 8 head/spindle gang... machine has nothing to do 
with the subject line.

And the grumble I often hear from people who have attempted or looked into 
LinuxCNC for their system is nicely summarized by your statement:

" Linuxcnc isn't for everyone.  The companies willing to support and hold the 
hand of a green noob who isn't interested in learning anything, charge 
accordingly."

Or as generally interpreted by most:  "F Off if you are a green noob and can't 
figure out LCNC or Linux"

Personally I think the theme of the original post and conversation was how easy 
is it to create a turnkey system that runs Path Pilot on non Tormach Hardware.  

IMHO, a lot more people would be interested in LCNC if there was a simple easy 
to follow, step by step method of setting up a 4 axis mill.  The menu's for 
setting up motors etc. in AXIS either for the parallel port (almost extinct) or 
the MESA boards is really good but doesn't go far enough.

There are a few youtube videos out there that show how to select motors based 
on mass of the system and acme or ball screw or belt reduction.  But the 
learning curve is steep and is just easier with systems that are not LCNC.  

John

> -Original Message-
> From: Todd Zuercher [mailto:to...@pgrahamdunn.com]
> Sent: January-24-23 11:45 AM
> To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Running PathPilot on non-Tormach Machines
> 
> I'd like see the retrofit CNC package on the market (other than Linuxcnc) 
> that can run an 8 head/spindle gang
> router, with individual Z axis and VFD control for each spindle.  I'm sorry 
> but freedom of customization comes
> at the cost of complexity.  If you want the freedom to be able to use/run 
> almost anything, you're going to
> have to know something about both the hardware and software.  You want simple 
> buy some simple 4 axis all
> in one stepper box and plug it in.
> 
> Linuxcnc isn't for everyone.  The companies willing to support and hold the 
> hand of a green noob who isn't
> interested in learning anything, charge accordingly.
> 
> Todd Zuercher
> P. Graham Dunn Inc.
> 630 Henry Street
> Dalton, Ohio 44618
> Phone:  (330)828-2105ext. 2031
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: John Dammeyer 
> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2023 1:39 PM
> To: 'Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)' 
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Running PathPilot on non-Tormach Machines
> 
> [EXTERNAL EMAIL] Be sure links are safe.
> 
> > From: Andy Pugh [mailto:bodge...@gmail.com]
> > > On 24 Jan 2023, at 15:38, ken.stra...@sympatico.ca wrote:
> > >
> > > But seriously, in my opinion a major impediment to the widescale
> > > adoption of LinuxCNC is the lack of an appealing and intuitive UI.
> >
> > There are around 12 user interfaces. Are you saying that they are _all_ 
> > terrible?
> >
> 
> I'll jump in on this one.   They are _all_ great and they are _all_ terrible.
> 
> Imagine your average home shop machinist.  His kids are finally out the door 
> and he's at an income level
> where he's got his lathe with a DRO and he just bought a small mill.  He 
> starts looking at CNC.
> 
> At work and at home he uses Windows.  And he's bought into the free Fusion 
> 360 con job for CAD/CAM and is
> now looking at how to add CNC to his mill.
> 
> OMG.  What a hodge podge of systems.
> 
> So he starts on the various groups looking for what is available including 
> even AliExpress which has CNC boxes
> for $300.
> 
> Not having used CNC before and not knowing anyone local the youtube videos 
> become his other source of
> information and education.  The most interesting ones appear to be ones with 
> 10's of thousands of
> subscribers that in fact are really long mostly to have multiple advertisers. 
>  But at the time he's not aware that
> the videos are short on information, long on con for supporting lots of 
> advertising.
> 
> IMHO, the more advertisements in really long videos the more likely the 
> poster is there to monetize than to
> actually provide useful help.   How interesting to watch a milling cutter for 
> 2 minutes go back and forth
> making chips.  Oh, and now another advertisement.
> 
> So someone on a forum recommends MESA.
> https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fstore.mesanet.com%2Findex.php%3F
> route%3Dproduct%2Fproduct%26path%3D83_84%26product_id%3D215=05%7C01%7Ctoddz%40pgra
> hamdunn.com%7C040364ad9343477cf2fb08dafe3a6977%7C5758544c573f47cebee96c3e0806fb43%7C0%
> 7C0%7C638101824085494729%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiL
> CJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C=QsuaNDdgukaAklsVBzraskOqkJrgDYP%2B7
> e9BcWa62nI%3D=0
>

Re: [Emc-users] Running PathPilot on non-Tormach Machines

[Stuart Stevenson]

Heh - I didn't read all the "comments". This thread seems like a "few"
others.

Made me think
"Peter Paul Almond Joy has nuts - Peter Paul Mound don't"
I don't care much for Mounds or Almond Joy but I sure LOVED Peter Paul
Almond Clusters!
They haven't made Almond Clusters for decades.  

"*Intuitive*" is such a magic word. Every control interface becomes
"intuitive" after running it for a while.
Then the next control interface isn't "intuitive" - YET.

The machine maintenance/service manuals are not intuitive to start reading.
Once you learn Jinglish (Japanese English or any other ?lish combination)
then the intuition is realized.

I put (ca 1997) OpenCNC on three five axis mills before 'finding' EMC2.
When I left MPM in 2013 one mill was still controlled by OpenCNC. The
operators liked the control as well as the Haas/Cinci/Fanuc/Fadal controls
on machines in the shop.

OpenCNC had to develop an EXACT match interface for machine controls in one
of the big three in Detroit. They did and the operators had no clue they
were running OpenCNC.

THE most intuitive control I ever ran was the Moog control on a Moog mill.
That may have been influenced by my previous experience though.

A "FANUC" interface choice might be something people would look at to begin
the journey into LinuxCNC.

I talked to a man just yesterday about machines and controls. When I
mentioned LinuxCNC his eyes glazed over and his voice dropped into a
sarcastic tone. I just let it pass and went on. I have known him since
1991. He has just rented a building and wanted me to see his shop. If it
isn't Fanuc/Siemens/et al then it is not worth exploring. His focus is
custom projects. HE HAS NO CLUE what is available. I will try to show him
but will not try to beat it into him.

Better documentation will help.
Copious examples will help.
Complete software will help.

Lots to do.
thanks
Stuart

___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] Running PathPilot on non-Tormach Machines

[andrew beck]

t;
> As it stands, LCNC feels like there are lots of people doing their own
> thing, with no thought to a more overall plan to make LCNC a more mature
> product.
> The comment that springs to mind is "Jack of all trades, master of none".
>
> Moray
>
>
> On Tue, 24 Jan 2023 at 20:12, John Dammeyer 
> wrote:
>
> > Hi Rob,
> > No.  I use AlibreCAD and the now old and discontinued AlibreCAM which is
> > the integrated Mecsoft VisualCAM.
> >
> > As for I/O I think you might be missing the point.  I've certainly had
> > enough people stress to me the ease of setting up their Centroid system.
> > They are happy with 3 axis and possibly 4.
> >
> > The almost vitriol resistance to LinuxCNC is really quite amazing
> > considering how powerful it is.  But it's not easy to set up.  As the
> > tutorial on Tormach's install shows, get the wrong MESA version and it
> > resets and updates and you lose everything.  Handy if you have a Tormach
> > and don't want to think about the underlying OS.  Difficult when you get
> > into asking users to start editing files on non-Tormach machines.
> >
> > So here's a suggestion since you were originally asking about Tormach.
> > Why not create a tutorial with diagrams for a simple 4 axis system using
> > the Raspberry Pi4,  7i92 from MESA (7 in stock today) and two of the
> > Chinese BoBs.  (I reverse engineered them so I have the schematic).
> >
> > Of course this should also specify exactly how to set up one of the
> common
> > smaller mills.   Maybe something like this:
> >
> >
> https://www.busybeetools.com/products/milling-machine-with-digital-readout-cx601.html
> > Drawings for the brackets.  Motor selection.  Power supply.  The works.
> >
> > Or even just AXIS instead of Tormach.
> >
> > The point is I've had absolutely no luck in convincing anyone to move
> from
> > MACH3 or any other CNC 'package' to LinuxCNC.  Why?  That's the question
> we
> > need to answer.
> >
> > John
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > -Original Message-
> > > From: Rob C [mailto:rclandro...@gmail.com]
> > > Sent: January-24-23 11:04 AM
> > > To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> > > Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Running PathPilot on non-Tormach Machines
> > >
> > > have you tried nativecam?
> > >
> > > easy to add to axis (when you've done it before).
> > >
> > > centroid acorn is nice, but very expensive and has very few iOS
> (compared
> > > to Mesa hardware and linuxcnc) and only 4x step and direction
> ports..
> > > your choice.
> > >
> > > On Tue, 24 Jan 2023, 18:42 John Dammeyer, 
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > > > From: Andy Pugh [mailto:bodge...@gmail.com]
> > > > > > On 24 Jan 2023, at 15:38, ken.stra...@sympatico.ca wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > But seriously, in my opinion a major impediment to the widescale
> > > > adoption of
> > > > > > LinuxCNC is the lack of an appealing and intuitive UI.
> > > > >
> > > > > There are around 12 user interfaces. Are you saying that they are
> > _all_
> > > > terrible?
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > I'll jump in on this one.   They are _all_ great and they are _all_
> > > > terrible.
> > > >
> > > > Imagine your average home shop machinist.  His kids are finally out
> the
> > > > door and he's at an income level where he's got his lathe with a DRO
> > and he
> > > > just bought a small mill.  He starts looking at CNC.
> > > >
> > > > At work and at home he uses Windows.  And he's bought into the free
> > Fusion
> > > > 360 con job for CAD/CAM and is now looking at how to add CNC to his
> > mill.
> > > >
> > > > OMG.  What a hodge podge of systems.
> > > >
> > > > So he starts on the various groups looking for what is available
> > including
> > > > even AliExpress which has CNC boxes for $300.
> > > >
> > > > Not having used CNC before and not knowing anyone local the youtube
> > videos
> > > > become his other source of information and education.  The most
> > interesting
> > > > ones appear to be ones with 10's of thousands of subscribers that in
> > fact
> > > > are really long mostly to have multiple advertisers.  But at the time
> > he's
> > > > not aware that the videos are short o

Re: [Emc-users] Running PathPilot on non-Tormach Machines

[Moray Cuthill via Emc-users]

nd two of the
> Chinese BoBs.  (I reverse engineered them so I have the schematic).
>
> Of course this should also specify exactly how to set up one of the common
> smaller mills.   Maybe something like this:
>
> https://www.busybeetools.com/products/milling-machine-with-digital-readout-cx601.html
> Drawings for the brackets.  Motor selection.  Power supply.  The works.
>
> Or even just AXIS instead of Tormach.
>
> The point is I've had absolutely no luck in convincing anyone to move from
> MACH3 or any other CNC 'package' to LinuxCNC.  Why?  That's the question we
> need to answer.
>
> John
>
>
>
>
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Rob C [mailto:rclandro...@gmail.com]
> > Sent: January-24-23 11:04 AM
> > To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> > Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Running PathPilot on non-Tormach Machines
> >
> > have you tried nativecam?
> >
> > easy to add to axis (when you've done it before).
> >
> > centroid acorn is nice, but very expensive and has very few iOS (compared
> > to Mesa hardware and linuxcnc) and only 4x step and direction ports..
> > your choice.
> >
> > On Tue, 24 Jan 2023, 18:42 John Dammeyer, 
> wrote:
> >
> > > > From: Andy Pugh [mailto:bodge...@gmail.com]
> > > > > On 24 Jan 2023, at 15:38, ken.stra...@sympatico.ca wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > But seriously, in my opinion a major impediment to the widescale
> > > adoption of
> > > > > LinuxCNC is the lack of an appealing and intuitive UI.
> > > >
> > > > There are around 12 user interfaces. Are you saying that they are
> _all_
> > > terrible?
> > > >
> > >
> > > I'll jump in on this one.   They are _all_ great and they are _all_
> > > terrible.
> > >
> > > Imagine your average home shop machinist.  His kids are finally out the
> > > door and he's at an income level where he's got his lathe with a DRO
> and he
> > > just bought a small mill.  He starts looking at CNC.
> > >
> > > At work and at home he uses Windows.  And he's bought into the free
> Fusion
> > > 360 con job for CAD/CAM and is now looking at how to add CNC to his
> mill.
> > >
> > > OMG.  What a hodge podge of systems.
> > >
> > > So he starts on the various groups looking for what is available
> including
> > > even AliExpress which has CNC boxes for $300.
> > >
> > > Not having used CNC before and not knowing anyone local the youtube
> videos
> > > become his other source of information and education.  The most
> interesting
> > > ones appear to be ones with 10's of thousands of subscribers that in
> fact
> > > are really long mostly to have multiple advertisers.  But at the time
> he's
> > > not aware that the videos are short on information, long on con for
> > > supporting lots of advertising.
> > >
> > > IMHO, the more advertisements in really long videos the more likely the
> > > poster is there to monetize than to actually provide useful help.   How
> > > interesting to watch a milling cutter for 2 minutes go back and forth
> > > making chips.  Oh, and now another advertisement.
> > >
> > > So someone on a forum recommends MESA.
> > >
> > >
> http://store.mesanet.com/index.php?route=product/product=83_84_id=215
> > > Hmm.  Out of stock.  And even if it were, there's no diagram like the
> > > ACORN one.  So no idea where to start...
> > >
> > > Oh but then someone suggests
> > >
> > >
> http://store.mesanet.com/index.php?route=product/product_id=381=7i92
> > >
> > > Now I need to wire to it.  A suggestion comes up for two of these and
> > > cheap too.
> > > https://www.aliexpress.com/item/33015669728.html
> > >
> > > Next motors and power supplies.  What to buy?  People rave about these
> new
> > > step-servos.  One brand in particular.  But what size?  Direct coupled
> or
> > > with belts and pulleys?
> > >
> > > So back to the internet and youtube.  Ah, this guy has a mill like
> mine.
> > > He used the Leadshine step servos and ACORN.   Ordered, installed as
> per
> > > the youtube video.  Making chips.
> > >
> > > And he doesn't have to wade through deciding which of _all_ 12 or so
> LCNC
> > > user interfaces to use.
> > >
> > > The above is I think the typical thought processes.
> > >
&

Re: [Emc-users] Running PathPilot on non-Tormach Machines

[Todd Zuercher]

I'd like see the retrofit CNC package on the market (other than Linuxcnc) that 
can run an 8 head/spindle gang router, with individual Z axis and VFD control 
for each spindle.  I'm sorry but freedom of customization comes at the cost of 
complexity.  If you want the freedom to be able to use/run almost anything, 
you're going to have to know something about both the hardware and software.  
You want simple buy some simple 4 axis all in one stepper box and plug it in.

Linuxcnc isn't for everyone.  The companies willing to support and hold the 
hand of a green noob who isn't interested in learning anything, charge 
accordingly.

Todd Zuercher
P. Graham Dunn Inc.
630 Henry Street 
Dalton, Ohio 44618
Phone:  (330)828-2105ext. 2031

-Original Message-
From: John Dammeyer  
Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2023 1:39 PM
To: 'Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)' 
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Running PathPilot on non-Tormach Machines

[EXTERNAL EMAIL] Be sure links are safe.

> From: Andy Pugh [mailto:bodge...@gmail.com]
> > On 24 Jan 2023, at 15:38, ken.stra...@sympatico.ca wrote:
> >
> > But seriously, in my opinion a major impediment to the widescale 
> > adoption of LinuxCNC is the lack of an appealing and intuitive UI.
>
> There are around 12 user interfaces. Are you saying that they are _all_ 
> terrible?
>

I'll jump in on this one.   They are _all_ great and they are _all_ terrible.

Imagine your average home shop machinist.  His kids are finally out the door 
and he's at an income level where he's got his lathe with a DRO and he just 
bought a small mill.  He starts looking at CNC.

At work and at home he uses Windows.  And he's bought into the free Fusion 360 
con job for CAD/CAM and is now looking at how to add CNC to his mill.

OMG.  What a hodge podge of systems.

So he starts on the various groups looking for what is available including even 
AliExpress which has CNC boxes for $300.

Not having used CNC before and not knowing anyone local the youtube videos 
become his other source of information and education.  The most interesting 
ones appear to be ones with 10's of thousands of subscribers that in fact are 
really long mostly to have multiple advertisers.  But at the time he's not 
aware that the videos are short on information, long on con for supporting lots 
of advertising.

IMHO, the more advertisements in really long videos the more likely the poster 
is there to monetize than to actually provide useful help.   How interesting to 
watch a milling cutter for 2 minutes go back and forth making chips.  Oh, and 
now another advertisement.

So someone on a forum recommends MESA.
https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fstore.mesanet.com%2Findex.php%3Froute%3Dproduct%2Fproduct%26path%3D83_84%26product_id%3D215=05%7C01%7Ctoddz%40pgrahamdunn.com%7C040364ad9343477cf2fb08dafe3a6977%7C5758544c573f47cebee96c3e0806fb43%7C0%7C0%7C638101824085494729%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C=QsuaNDdgukaAklsVBzraskOqkJrgDYP%2B7e9BcWa62nI%3D=0
Hmm.  Out of stock.  And even if it were, there's no diagram like the ACORN 
one.  So no idea where to start...

Oh but then someone suggests
https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fstore.mesanet.com%2Findex.php%3Froute%3Dproduct%2Fproduct%26product_id%3D381%26search%3D7i92=05%7C01%7Ctoddz%40pgrahamdunn.com%7C040364ad9343477cf2fb08dafe3a6977%7C5758544c573f47cebee96c3e0806fb43%7C0%7C0%7C638101824085494729%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C=lNSWiCwuqqIMsYjHAEfR9JqJAjsWNK9DeF9GsKztVJg%3D=0

Now I need to wire to it.  A suggestion comes up for two of these and cheap too.
https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.aliexpress.com%2Fitem%2F33015669728.html=05%7C01%7Ctoddz%40pgrahamdunn.com%7C040364ad9343477cf2fb08dafe3a6977%7C5758544c573f47cebee96c3e0806fb43%7C0%7C0%7C638101824085494729%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C=LclFcxiqe05h7ZMNmrFS3%2Fri1wQ7cRfBl1KFG0z51OQ%3D=0

Next motors and power supplies.  What to buy?  People rave about these new 
step-servos.  One brand in particular.  But what size?  Direct coupled or with 
belts and pulleys?

So back to the internet and youtube.  Ah, this guy has a mill like mine.  He 
used the Leadshine step servos and ACORN.   Ordered, installed as per the 
youtube video.  Making chips.

And he doesn't have to wade through deciding which of _all_ 12 or so LCNC user 
interfaces to use.

The above is I think the typical thought processes.

I'm still using AXIS.  Can't be bothered to spend the time trying to figure out 
whether I should spend $400 for a touch screen HDMI 21" screen or some other 
user interface.  Really miss the MACROs from MACH3 though.  I think that's 
what's called th

Re: [Emc-users] Running PathPilot on non-Tormach Machines

[gene heskett]

On 1/24/23 15:10, John Dammeyer wrote:

Hi Rob,
No.  I use AlibreCAD and the now old and discontinued AlibreCAM which is the 
integrated Mecsoft VisualCAM.

As for I/O I think you might be missing the point.  I've certainly had enough 
people stress to me the ease of setting up their Centroid system.  They are 
happy with 3 axis and possibly 4.

The almost vitriol resistance to LinuxCNC is really quite amazing considering 
how powerful it is.  But it's not easy to set up.  As the tutorial on Tormach's 
install shows, get the wrong MESA version and it resets and updates and you 
lose everything.  Handy if you have a Tormach and don't want to think about the 
underlying OS.  Difficult when you get into asking users to start editing files 
on non-Tormach machines.

So here's a suggestion since you were originally asking about Tormach.  Why not 
create a tutorial with diagrams for a simple 4 axis system using the Raspberry 
Pi4,  7i92 from MESA (7 in stock today) and two of the Chinese BoBs.  (I 
reverse engineered them so I have the schematic).

Of course this should also specify exactly how to set up one of the common 
smaller mills.   Maybe something like this:
https://www.busybeetools.com/products/milling-machine-with-digital-readout-cx601.html
Drawings for the brackets.  Motor selection.  Power supply.  The works.

Or even just AXIS instead of Tormach.

The point is I've had absolutely no luck in convincing anyone to move from 
MACH3 or any other CNC 'package' to LinuxCNC.  Why?  That's the question we 
need to answer.

John

[...]
Be carefull what you ask for John. I'm all in favor of the growth, but 
really, if this list is suddenly flooded with winders escapees, there 
aren't enough of us to take care of $dayjob, and support the 
re-education of 10x the windoze educated. IMO the growth should be paced 
at the level where there are enough of us that can answer the questions 
that will arise.


Those that do have winders have a leg up on me. I refuse to contaminate 
my mind with winblows stuff, I have only bought one machine, an hp lappy 
I bought to go on the road when I was doing some broadcast consulting 
after I retired, It only took about 3 days for me to stick a linux 
install cd in the drive. That die was cast when the broadcom radio in 
the lappy could not be used by the xp that it came with.  Today I build 
my own or buy used w/o an hd or the windows sticker.


Cheers, Gene Heskett.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 



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Re: [Emc-users] Running PathPilot on non-Tormach Machines

[John Dammeyer]

Hi Rob,
No.  I use AlibreCAD and the now old and discontinued AlibreCAM which is the 
integrated Mecsoft VisualCAM.

As for I/O I think you might be missing the point.  I've certainly had enough 
people stress to me the ease of setting up their Centroid system.  They are 
happy with 3 axis and possibly 4.  

The almost vitriol resistance to LinuxCNC is really quite amazing considering 
how powerful it is.  But it's not easy to set up.  As the tutorial on Tormach's 
install shows, get the wrong MESA version and it resets and updates and you 
lose everything.  Handy if you have a Tormach and don't want to think about the 
underlying OS.  Difficult when you get into asking users to start editing files 
on non-Tormach machines.

So here's a suggestion since you were originally asking about Tormach.  Why not 
create a tutorial with diagrams for a simple 4 axis system using the Raspberry 
Pi4,  7i92 from MESA (7 in stock today) and two of the Chinese BoBs.  (I 
reverse engineered them so I have the schematic). 

Of course this should also specify exactly how to set up one of the common 
smaller mills.   Maybe something like this:
https://www.busybeetools.com/products/milling-machine-with-digital-readout-cx601.html
Drawings for the brackets.  Motor selection.  Power supply.  The works.

Or even just AXIS instead of Tormach.

The point is I've had absolutely no luck in convincing anyone to move from 
MACH3 or any other CNC 'package' to LinuxCNC.  Why?  That's the question we 
need to answer.

John




> -Original Message-
> From: Rob C [mailto:rclandro...@gmail.com]
> Sent: January-24-23 11:04 AM
> To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Running PathPilot on non-Tormach Machines
> 
> have you tried nativecam?
> 
> easy to add to axis (when you've done it before).
> 
> centroid acorn is nice, but very expensive and has very few iOS (compared
> to Mesa hardware and linuxcnc) and only 4x step and direction ports..
> your choice.
> 
> On Tue, 24 Jan 2023, 18:42 John Dammeyer,  wrote:
> 
> > > From: Andy Pugh [mailto:bodge...@gmail.com]
> > > > On 24 Jan 2023, at 15:38, ken.stra...@sympatico.ca wrote:
> > > >
> > > > But seriously, in my opinion a major impediment to the widescale
> > adoption of
> > > > LinuxCNC is the lack of an appealing and intuitive UI.
> > >
> > > There are around 12 user interfaces. Are you saying that they are _all_
> > terrible?
> > >
> >
> > I'll jump in on this one.   They are _all_ great and they are _all_
> > terrible.
> >
> > Imagine your average home shop machinist.  His kids are finally out the
> > door and he's at an income level where he's got his lathe with a DRO and he
> > just bought a small mill.  He starts looking at CNC.
> >
> > At work and at home he uses Windows.  And he's bought into the free Fusion
> > 360 con job for CAD/CAM and is now looking at how to add CNC to his mill.
> >
> > OMG.  What a hodge podge of systems.
> >
> > So he starts on the various groups looking for what is available including
> > even AliExpress which has CNC boxes for $300.
> >
> > Not having used CNC before and not knowing anyone local the youtube videos
> > become his other source of information and education.  The most interesting
> > ones appear to be ones with 10's of thousands of subscribers that in fact
> > are really long mostly to have multiple advertisers.  But at the time he's
> > not aware that the videos are short on information, long on con for
> > supporting lots of advertising.
> >
> > IMHO, the more advertisements in really long videos the more likely the
> > poster is there to monetize than to actually provide useful help.   How
> > interesting to watch a milling cutter for 2 minutes go back and forth
> > making chips.  Oh, and now another advertisement.
> >
> > So someone on a forum recommends MESA.
> >
> > http://store.mesanet.com/index.php?route=product/product=83_84_id=215
> > Hmm.  Out of stock.  And even if it were, there's no diagram like the
> > ACORN one.  So no idea where to start...
> >
> > Oh but then someone suggests
> >
> > http://store.mesanet.com/index.php?route=product/product_id=381=7i92
> >
> > Now I need to wire to it.  A suggestion comes up for two of these and
> > cheap too.
> > https://www.aliexpress.com/item/33015669728.html
> >
> > Next motors and power supplies.  What to buy?  People rave about these new
> > step-servos.  One brand in particular.  But what size?  Direct coupled or
> > with belts and pulleys?
> >
> > So back to the internet and youtube.  Ah, this guy has a mill like mine.
> > He 

Re: [Emc-users] Running PathPilot on non-Tormach Machines

[Andy Pugh]

> On 24 Jan 2023, at 18:03, Eric Keller  wrote:
> 
> Doesn't Pathpilot have better motion planning for more than 3 axes?

Yes, it has full 9-axis blending. 



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Re: [Emc-users] Running PathPilot on non-Tormach Machines

[ken.strauss]

No, I haven't tried nativecam. What does it give me that I don't have as
part of Pathpilot? Prettier UI? Cheaper than free? Trochoidal milling of
simple shapes? CAM directly  from STEP files? Better online tutorials? Do I
get what I already have including: zero effort installation (part of the
base install), documentation, thread milling, DXF import, speed/feed
suggestions, etc, etc?.

-Original Message-
From: Rob C  
Sent: January 24, 2023 2:04 PM
To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) 
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Running PathPilot on non-Tormach Machines

have you tried nativecam?

easy to add to axis (when you've done it before).

centroid acorn is nice, but very expensive and has very few iOS (compared to
Mesa hardware and linuxcnc) and only 4x step and direction ports..
your choice.

On Tue, 24 Jan 2023, 18:42 John Dammeyer,  wrote:

> > From: Andy Pugh [mailto:bodge...@gmail.com]
> > > On 24 Jan 2023, at 15:38, ken.stra...@sympatico.ca wrote:
> > >
> > > But seriously, in my opinion a major impediment to the widescale
> adoption of
> > > LinuxCNC is the lack of an appealing and intuitive UI.
> >
> > There are around 12 user interfaces. Are you saying that they are 
> > _all_
> terrible?
> >
>
> I'll jump in on this one.   They are _all_ great and they are _all_
> terrible.
>
> Imagine your average home shop machinist.  His kids are finally out 
> the door and he's at an income level where he's got his lathe with a 
> DRO and he just bought a small mill.  He starts looking at CNC.
>
> At work and at home he uses Windows.  And he's bought into the free 
> Fusion
> 360 con job for CAD/CAM and is now looking at how to add CNC to his mill.
>
> OMG.  What a hodge podge of systems.
>
> So he starts on the various groups looking for what is available 
> including even AliExpress which has CNC boxes for $300.
>
> Not having used CNC before and not knowing anyone local the youtube 
> videos become his other source of information and education.  The most 
> interesting ones appear to be ones with 10's of thousands of 
> subscribers that in fact are really long mostly to have multiple 
> advertisers.  But at the time he's not aware that the videos are short 
> on information, long on con for supporting lots of advertising.
>
> IMHO, the more advertisements in really long videos the more likely the
> poster is there to monetize than to actually provide useful help.   How
> interesting to watch a milling cutter for 2 minutes go back and forth 
> making chips.  Oh, and now another advertisement.
>
> So someone on a forum recommends MESA.
>
> http://store.mesanet.com/index.php?route=product/product=83_84
> oduct_id=215 Hmm.  Out of stock.  And even if it were, there's no 
> diagram like the ACORN one.  So no idea where to start...
>
> Oh but then someone suggests
>
> http://store.mesanet.com/index.php?route=product/product_id=38
> 1=7i92
>
> Now I need to wire to it.  A suggestion comes up for two of these and 
> cheap too.
> https://www.aliexpress.com/item/33015669728.html
>
> Next motors and power supplies.  What to buy?  People rave about these 
> new step-servos.  One brand in particular.  But what size?  Direct 
> coupled or with belts and pulleys?
>
> So back to the internet and youtube.  Ah, this guy has a mill like mine.
> He used the Leadshine step servos and ACORN.   Ordered, installed as per
> the youtube video.  Making chips.
>
> And he doesn't have to wade through deciding which of _all_ 12 or so 
> LCNC user interfaces to use.
>
> The above is I think the typical thought processes.
>
> I'm still using AXIS.  Can't be bothered to spend the time trying to 
> figure out whether I should spend $400 for a touch screen HDMI 21" 
> screen or some other user interface.  Really miss the MACROs from 
> MACH3 though.  I think that's what's called the conversational interface
on Tormach?
>
> John
>
>
>
>
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Re: [Emc-users] Running PathPilot on non-Tormach Machines

[Rob C]

have you tried nativecam?

easy to add to axis (when you've done it before).

centroid acorn is nice, but very expensive and has very few iOS (compared
to Mesa hardware and linuxcnc) and only 4x step and direction ports..
your choice.

On Tue, 24 Jan 2023, 18:42 John Dammeyer,  wrote:

> > From: Andy Pugh [mailto:bodge...@gmail.com]
> > > On 24 Jan 2023, at 15:38, ken.stra...@sympatico.ca wrote:
> > >
> > > But seriously, in my opinion a major impediment to the widescale
> adoption of
> > > LinuxCNC is the lack of an appealing and intuitive UI.
> >
> > There are around 12 user interfaces. Are you saying that they are _all_
> terrible?
> >
>
> I'll jump in on this one.   They are _all_ great and they are _all_
> terrible.
>
> Imagine your average home shop machinist.  His kids are finally out the
> door and he's at an income level where he's got his lathe with a DRO and he
> just bought a small mill.  He starts looking at CNC.
>
> At work and at home he uses Windows.  And he's bought into the free Fusion
> 360 con job for CAD/CAM and is now looking at how to add CNC to his mill.
>
> OMG.  What a hodge podge of systems.
>
> So he starts on the various groups looking for what is available including
> even AliExpress which has CNC boxes for $300.
>
> Not having used CNC before and not knowing anyone local the youtube videos
> become his other source of information and education.  The most interesting
> ones appear to be ones with 10's of thousands of subscribers that in fact
> are really long mostly to have multiple advertisers.  But at the time he's
> not aware that the videos are short on information, long on con for
> supporting lots of advertising.
>
> IMHO, the more advertisements in really long videos the more likely the
> poster is there to monetize than to actually provide useful help.   How
> interesting to watch a milling cutter for 2 minutes go back and forth
> making chips.  Oh, and now another advertisement.
>
> So someone on a forum recommends MESA.
>
> http://store.mesanet.com/index.php?route=product/product=83_84_id=215
> Hmm.  Out of stock.  And even if it were, there's no diagram like the
> ACORN one.  So no idea where to start...
>
> Oh but then someone suggests
>
> http://store.mesanet.com/index.php?route=product/product_id=381=7i92
>
> Now I need to wire to it.  A suggestion comes up for two of these and
> cheap too.
> https://www.aliexpress.com/item/33015669728.html
>
> Next motors and power supplies.  What to buy?  People rave about these new
> step-servos.  One brand in particular.  But what size?  Direct coupled or
> with belts and pulleys?
>
> So back to the internet and youtube.  Ah, this guy has a mill like mine.
> He used the Leadshine step servos and ACORN.   Ordered, installed as per
> the youtube video.  Making chips.
>
> And he doesn't have to wade through deciding which of _all_ 12 or so LCNC
> user interfaces to use.
>
> The above is I think the typical thought processes.
>
> I'm still using AXIS.  Can't be bothered to spend the time trying to
> figure out whether I should spend $400 for a touch screen HDMI 21" screen
> or some other user interface.  Really miss the MACROs from MACH3 though.  I
> think that's what's called the conversational interface on Tormach?
>
> John
>
>
>
>
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Re: [Emc-users] Running PathPilot on non-Tormach Machines

[John Dammeyer]

> From: Andy Pugh [mailto:bodge...@gmail.com]
> > On 24 Jan 2023, at 15:38, ken.stra...@sympatico.ca wrote:
> >
> > But seriously, in my opinion a major impediment to the widescale adoption of
> > LinuxCNC is the lack of an appealing and intuitive UI.
> 
> There are around 12 user interfaces. Are you saying that they are _all_ 
> terrible?
> 

I'll jump in on this one.   They are _all_ great and they are _all_ terrible.

Imagine your average home shop machinist.  His kids are finally out the door 
and he's at an income level where he's got his lathe with a DRO and he just 
bought a small mill.  He starts looking at CNC.  

At work and at home he uses Windows.  And he's bought into the free Fusion 360 
con job for CAD/CAM and is now looking at how to add CNC to his mill.  

OMG.  What a hodge podge of systems.

So he starts on the various groups looking for what is available including even 
AliExpress which has CNC boxes for $300.

Not having used CNC before and not knowing anyone local the youtube videos 
become his other source of information and education.  The most interesting 
ones appear to be ones with 10's of thousands of subscribers that in fact are 
really long mostly to have multiple advertisers.  But at the time he's not 
aware that the videos are short on information, long on con for supporting lots 
of advertising.

IMHO, the more advertisements in really long videos the more likely the poster 
is there to monetize than to actually provide useful help.   How interesting to 
watch a milling cutter for 2 minutes go back and forth making chips.  Oh, and 
now another advertisement.

So someone on a forum recommends MESA.  
http://store.mesanet.com/index.php?route=product/product=83_84_id=215
Hmm.  Out of stock.  And even if it were, there's no diagram like the ACORN 
one.  So no idea where to start...

Oh but then someone suggests
http://store.mesanet.com/index.php?route=product/product_id=381=7i92

Now I need to wire to it.  A suggestion comes up for two of these and cheap too.
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/33015669728.html

Next motors and power supplies.  What to buy?  People rave about these new 
step-servos.  One brand in particular.  But what size?  Direct coupled or with 
belts and pulleys?

So back to the internet and youtube.  Ah, this guy has a mill like mine.  He 
used the Leadshine step servos and ACORN.   Ordered, installed as per the 
youtube video.  Making chips.

And he doesn't have to wade through deciding which of _all_ 12 or so LCNC user 
interfaces to use.

The above is I think the typical thought processes.

I'm still using AXIS.  Can't be bothered to spend the time trying to figure out 
whether I should spend $400 for a touch screen HDMI 21" screen or some other 
user interface.  Really miss the MACROs from MACH3 though.  I think that's 
what's called the conversational interface on Tormach?

John




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Re: [Emc-users] Running PathPilot on non-Tormach Machines

[Andy Pugh]

> On 24 Jan 2023, at 15:38, ken.stra...@sympatico.ca wrote:
> 
> But seriously, in my opinion a major impediment to the widescale adoption of
> LinuxCNC is the lack of an appealing and intuitive UI.

There are around 12 user interfaces. Are you saying that they are _all_ 
terrible?



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Re: [Emc-users] Running PathPilot on non-Tormach Machines

[John Dammeyer]

> From: ken.stra...@sympatico.ca [mailto:ken.stra...@sympatico.ca]
> 
> Several have opined that Pathpilot is just a pretty face and that is largely
> correct. It does provide some nice features -- conversational machining
> including drilling, thread milling, facing; probing; import of .DXF, editing
> of Gcode, interface to DropBox, etc. I realize that most if not all are
> available in other implementations.
> 
> But seriously, in my opinion a major impediment to the widescale adoption of
> LinuxCNC is the lack of an appealing and intuitive UI.
> 
> From: Rob C 
> 
> am I missing something, this is all documented on the forum, with a number
> of users using tormach with non tormach machines.
> 
> https://forum.linuxcnc.org/pathpilot
> 
> Mesa 7i92 will work just fine (I have had it running before)
> 
> now I have seen the light, and just run linuxcnc with axis for mill, router
> and lathe, and qtplasmac for plasma.  it just works.  no it's not eye candy
> but life is about the taste of the coffee and not the shape or look of the
> mug / cup.
> 

Hi Ken,
One metal group I belong to, with over 1000 members, those who use CNC are 
mostly using dedicated CNC boxes or MACH.  A very small percentage are using 
LCNC.

The supporters of the ACORN system are big on ease of use and not having to 
learn Linux.
https://www.centroidcnc.com/centroid_diy/acornsix_cnc_controller.html

The supporters of MACH are big on not having to learn Linux.

As for the Tormach, here's what was said by one Tormach user who bought his 
used for his home shop.  At work he uses HAAS.

"-Pathpilot is a pretty user friendly control with some great options that I 
actually like better than Haas. It has some parts I don't like thoughThe 
conversational is something I've really come to love. Our Haas' at work don't 
have quick code, and I really wish they did after running mine."

The tutorial pages on the link provided by Rob C. are good but still require 
that large amount of Linux and LCNC knowledge.  Most people just don't want to 
go there.

If we wanted more people using LCNC (even if just with the Tormach install) 
then pages like the ACORN are mandatory.  Ie. you buy this, this and that.  You 
install and wire up this, this and that like this.  

For example Peter Homann in Australia, who used to manufacture a lot of add on 
boards for MACH switched to LCNC.
https://www.cnczone.com/forums/tormach-pathpilot-/429214-pathpilot-mesa-7i92h-geckodrive-g540.html

But as always, the LCNC or Tormach conversion information is all over the place 
and a newbie has no idea which web thread refers to what is up to date etc.  So 
they go with systems like the ACORN.
Even if this simple version looks like it's running a BeagleBone and therefore 
probably LCNC
https://www.centroidcnc.com/centroid_diy/acorn_cnc_controller.html

John




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Re: [Emc-users] Running PathPilot on non-Tormach Machines

[Eric Keller]

Doesn't Pathpilot have better motion planning for more than 3 axes?
Eric Keller
Boalsburg, Pennsylania

On Tue, Jan 24, 2023 at 9:38 AM  wrote:
>
> Several have opined that Pathpilot is just a pretty face and that is largely
> correct. It does provide some nice features -- conversational machining
> including drilling, thread milling, facing; probing; import of .DXF, editing
> of Gcode, interface to DropBox, etc. I realize that most if not all are
> available in other implementations.
>
> But seriously, in my opinion a major impediment to the widescale adoption of
> LinuxCNC is the lack of an appealing and intuitive UI.
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Rob C 
> Sent: January 24, 2023 1:55 AM
> To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) 
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Running PathPilot on non-Tormach Machines
>
> am I missing something, this is all documented on the forum, with a number
> of users using tormach with non tormach machines.
>
> https://forum.linuxcnc.org/pathpilot
>
> Mesa 7i92 will work just fine (I have had it running before)
>
> now I have seen the light, and just run linuxcnc with axis for mill, router
> and lathe, and qtplasmac for plasma.  it just works.  no it's not eye candy
> but life is about the taste of the coffee and not the shape or look of the
> mug / cup.
>
> I do use nativecam and also ngcgui again they just work.
>
> what benefit are you after using path pilot other than the gui appearance?
>
> a similar appearance can be done with using qtpyvcp and probe basic
>
> https://www.qtpyvcp.com/showcase/mill_vcps.html
>
> what do you think tormach is going to do better than linuxcnc? . other
> than the display interface?  (I am genuinely curious what the benefit is)
>
> rob
>
>
> On Tue, 24 Jan 2023, 06:04 andrew beck,  wrote:
>
> > Just a quick note.
> >
> > I think they run a standard mesa card.
> >
> >
> >
> > On Tue, 24 Jan 2023, 18:22 John Dammeyer,  wrote:
> >
> > > -Original Message-
> > > > From: Ron Ginger [mailto:rongin...@roadrunner.com]
> > > >
> > > > I would like to try to run PathPilot on my own mill. I now run
> > > > Mach4, but I would like to see how well PathPilot works.
> > > >
> > > > I see I can simply download a copy from the Tormach site.  what
> > > > interface board do I need?
> > > >
> > > > What is Tormachs position on this? I know they have to release the
> > > > code because it is based on open source, but do they oppose its use?
> > > >
> > > > thanks
> > > >
> > > > ron ginger
> > > >
> > >
> > > Hi Ron,
> > > Long time.
> > > Have you asked Tormach what kind of interface board they use?  I
> > > doubt it's a parallel port.
> > >
> > > My guess is if you use open source LCNC for your system.  Spend the
> > > time/money to create a custom user interface for it but don't want
> > everyone
> > > using it you'd likely use a customized piece of hardware as the
> > > break out board.
> > >
> > > However, unlike MACH, the two important files in LCNC are the .INI
> > > and .HAL files.  In the Tormach image those two will describe how
> > > they talk
> > to
> > > the machine hardware.
> > >
> > > For example I use a MESA 7i92H and for a while had dual boot for
> > > WIN-XP and LCNC to a PMDX-126 break out board.  It's Ethernet to the
> > > MESA which emulates two parallel ports onto the PMDX.
> > >
> > > Here's how I documented (for my own needs) the first parallel port
> > > with the DB-25 pins cross referenced to the MESA pins.
> > >
> > > Looking forward to what you find out.
> > > John Dammeyer
> > >
> > > # external I/O signals
> > > # IO Connections for P2 MESA 7i92_PMDX126Ax2D.pin  (modified from
> > > pin
> > file)
> > > # DBn.m_PMDX_Jn.m  I/O   Pri.func  Sec. func   Chan  Pin func
> > >   Pin DirSystem usage
> > >
> > > # P1.1_J6.2 0   IOPort None
> > >   (Out)  machine-is-enabled (output)
> > > # P1.14_J6.31   IOPort PWM  0PWM
> > >(Out)  spindle-vel-cmd-rps PWM (output)
> > > # P1.2_J4.2 2   IOPort StepGen  0Step/Table1
> > >(Out)  x axis step pulse (output)
> > > # P1.15_J12.9   3   IOPort None
> > >   (In)   max-x-y-min-z (input)
> > > # P1.3_J4.3 4   IOPort Ste

Re: [Emc-users] Running PathPilot on non-Tormach Machines

[ken.strauss]

Several have opined that Pathpilot is just a pretty face and that is largely
correct. It does provide some nice features -- conversational machining
including drilling, thread milling, facing; probing; import of .DXF, editing
of Gcode, interface to DropBox, etc. I realize that most if not all are
available in other implementations. 

But seriously, in my opinion a major impediment to the widescale adoption of
LinuxCNC is the lack of an appealing and intuitive UI. 

-Original Message-
From: Rob C  
Sent: January 24, 2023 1:55 AM
To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) 
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Running PathPilot on non-Tormach Machines

am I missing something, this is all documented on the forum, with a number
of users using tormach with non tormach machines.

https://forum.linuxcnc.org/pathpilot

Mesa 7i92 will work just fine (I have had it running before)

now I have seen the light, and just run linuxcnc with axis for mill, router
and lathe, and qtplasmac for plasma.  it just works.  no it's not eye candy
but life is about the taste of the coffee and not the shape or look of the
mug / cup.

I do use nativecam and also ngcgui again they just work.

what benefit are you after using path pilot other than the gui appearance?

a similar appearance can be done with using qtpyvcp and probe basic

https://www.qtpyvcp.com/showcase/mill_vcps.html

what do you think tormach is going to do better than linuxcnc? . other
than the display interface?  (I am genuinely curious what the benefit is)

rob


On Tue, 24 Jan 2023, 06:04 andrew beck,  wrote:

> Just a quick note.
>
> I think they run a standard mesa card.
>
>
>
> On Tue, 24 Jan 2023, 18:22 John Dammeyer,  wrote:
>
> > -Original Message-
> > > From: Ron Ginger [mailto:rongin...@roadrunner.com]
> > >
> > > I would like to try to run PathPilot on my own mill. I now run 
> > > Mach4, but I would like to see how well PathPilot works.
> > >
> > > I see I can simply download a copy from the Tormach site.  what 
> > > interface board do I need?
> > >
> > > What is Tormachs position on this? I know they have to release the 
> > > code because it is based on open source, but do they oppose its use?
> > >
> > > thanks
> > >
> > > ron ginger
> > >
> >
> > Hi Ron,
> > Long time.
> > Have you asked Tormach what kind of interface board they use?  I 
> > doubt it's a parallel port.
> >
> > My guess is if you use open source LCNC for your system.  Spend the 
> > time/money to create a custom user interface for it but don't want
> everyone
> > using it you'd likely use a customized piece of hardware as the 
> > break out board.
> >
> > However, unlike MACH, the two important files in LCNC are the .INI 
> > and .HAL files.  In the Tormach image those two will describe how 
> > they talk
> to
> > the machine hardware.
> >
> > For example I use a MESA 7i92H and for a while had dual boot for 
> > WIN-XP and LCNC to a PMDX-126 break out board.  It's Ethernet to the 
> > MESA which emulates two parallel ports onto the PMDX.
> >
> > Here's how I documented (for my own needs) the first parallel port 
> > with the DB-25 pins cross referenced to the MESA pins.
> >
> > Looking forward to what you find out.
> > John Dammeyer
> >
> > # external I/O signals
> > # IO Connections for P2 MESA 7i92_PMDX126Ax2D.pin  (modified from 
> > pin
> file)
> > # DBn.m_PMDX_Jn.m  I/O   Pri.func  Sec. func   Chan  Pin func
> >   Pin DirSystem usage
> >
> > # P1.1_J6.2 0   IOPort None
> >   (Out)  machine-is-enabled (output)
> > # P1.14_J6.31   IOPort PWM  0PWM
> >(Out)  spindle-vel-cmd-rps PWM (output)
> > # P1.2_J4.2 2   IOPort StepGen  0Step/Table1
> >(Out)  x axis step pulse (output)
> > # P1.15_J12.9   3   IOPort None
> >   (In)   max-x-y-min-z (input)
> > # P1.3_J4.3 4   IOPort StepGen  0Dir/Table2
> >   (Out)  x axis dir signal (output)
> > # P1.16_J6.45   IOPort None
> >   (Out)  spindle-ccw output (output)
> > # P1.4_J3.2 6   IOPort StepGen  1Step/Table1
> >(Out)  y axis step pulse (output)
> > # P1.17_J6.57   IOPort StepGen  4Step/Table1
> >(Out)  Charge Pump frequency (output)
> > # P1.5_J3.3 8   IOPort StepGen  1Dir/Table2
> >   (Out)  y axis dir signal (output)
> > # P1.6_J2.2 9   IOPort StepGen  2Step/Table1
&g

Re: [Emc-users] Running PathPilot on non-Tormach Machines

[ken.strauss]

I have a Tormach and have been running Pathpilot for years. It "talks" to
several Mesa cards -- 7i92, 5i25 and 7i25(?). If no supported interface card
is found it stops with an error message. 

-Original Message-
From: Chris Albertson  
Sent: January 23, 2023 11:10 PM
To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) 
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Running PathPilot on non-Tormach Machines

On Sun, Jan 22, 2023 at 6:23 PM Ron Ginger  wrote:

>
> I see I can simply download a copy from the Tormach site.  what 
> interface board do I need?
>

I doubt Pathpilot talks directly to any interface board.  It is a user
interface and likely generates g-code.

Why not try it and tell us what happens?

-- 

Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California

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Re: [Emc-users] Running PathPilot on non-Tormach Machines

[Rob C]

am I missing something, this is all documented on the forum, with a number
of users using tormach with non tormach machines.

https://forum.linuxcnc.org/pathpilot

Mesa 7i92 will work just fine (I have had it running before)

now I have seen the light, and just run linuxcnc with axis for mill, router
and lathe, and qtplasmac for plasma.  it just works.  no it's not eye candy
but life is about the taste of the coffee and not the shape or look of the
mug / cup.

I do use nativecam and also ngcgui again they just work.

what benefit are you after using path pilot other than the gui appearance?

a similar appearance can be done with using qtpyvcp and probe basic

https://www.qtpyvcp.com/showcase/mill_vcps.html

what do you think tormach is going to do better than linuxcnc? . other
than the display interface?  (I am genuinely curious what the benefit is)

rob


On Tue, 24 Jan 2023, 06:04 andrew beck,  wrote:

> Just a quick note.
>
> I think they run a standard mesa card.
>
>
>
> On Tue, 24 Jan 2023, 18:22 John Dammeyer,  wrote:
>
> > -Original Message-
> > > From: Ron Ginger [mailto:rongin...@roadrunner.com]
> > >
> > > I would like to try to run PathPilot on my own mill. I now run Mach4,
> > > but I would like to see how well PathPilot works.
> > >
> > > I see I can simply download a copy from the Tormach site.  what
> > > interface board do I need?
> > >
> > > What is Tormachs position on this? I know they have to release the code
> > > because it is based on open source, but do they oppose its use?
> > >
> > > thanks
> > >
> > > ron ginger
> > >
> >
> > Hi Ron,
> > Long time.
> > Have you asked Tormach what kind of interface board they use?  I doubt
> > it's a parallel port.
> >
> > My guess is if you use open source LCNC for your system.  Spend the
> > time/money to create a custom user interface for it but don't want
> everyone
> > using it you'd likely use a customized piece of hardware as the break out
> > board.
> >
> > However, unlike MACH, the two important files in LCNC are the .INI and
> > .HAL files.  In the Tormach image those two will describe how they talk
> to
> > the machine hardware.
> >
> > For example I use a MESA 7i92H and for a while had dual boot for WIN-XP
> > and LCNC to a PMDX-126 break out board.  It's Ethernet to the MESA which
> > emulates two parallel ports onto the PMDX.
> >
> > Here's how I documented (for my own needs) the first parallel port with
> > the DB-25 pins cross referenced to the MESA pins.
> >
> > Looking forward to what you find out.
> > John Dammeyer
> >
> > # external I/O signals
> > # IO Connections for P2 MESA 7i92_PMDX126Ax2D.pin  (modified from pin
> file)
> > # DBn.m_PMDX_Jn.m  I/O   Pri.func  Sec. func   Chan  Pin func
> >   Pin DirSystem usage
> >
> > # P1.1_J6.2 0   IOPort None
> >   (Out)  machine-is-enabled (output)
> > # P1.14_J6.31   IOPort PWM  0PWM
> >(Out)  spindle-vel-cmd-rps PWM (output)
> > # P1.2_J4.2 2   IOPort StepGen  0Step/Table1
> >(Out)  x axis step pulse (output)
> > # P1.15_J12.9   3   IOPort None
> >   (In)   max-x-y-min-z (input)
> > # P1.3_J4.3 4   IOPort StepGen  0Dir/Table2
> >   (Out)  x axis dir signal (output)
> > # P1.16_J6.45   IOPort None
> >   (Out)  spindle-ccw output (output)
> > # P1.4_J3.2 6   IOPort StepGen  1Step/Table1
> >(Out)  y axis step pulse (output)
> > # P1.17_J6.57   IOPort StepGen  4Step/Table1
> >(Out)  Charge Pump frequency (output)
> > # P1.5_J3.3 8   IOPort StepGen  1Dir/Table2
> >   (Out)  y axis dir signal (output)
> > # P1.6_J2.2 9   IOPort StepGen  2Step/Table1
> >(Out)  z axis step pulse (output)
> > # P1.7_J2.3 10  IOPort StepGen  2Dir/Table2
> >   (Out)  z axis dir signal (output)
> > # P1.8_J1.2 11  IOPort StepGen  3Step/Table1
> >(Out)  a axis step pulse (output)
> > # P1.9_J1.2 12  IOPort StepGen  3Dir/Table2
> >   (Out)  a axis dir signal (output)
> > # P1.10_J13.4   13  IOPort None
> >   (In)   estop-external-in (input)
> > # P1.11_J12.3   14  IOPort QCount   0Quad-A
> >   (In)   min home-x (input)
> > # P1.12_J12.5   15  IOPort QCount   0Quad-B
> >   (In)   min home-y (input)
> > # P1.13_J12.7   16  IOPort QCount   0Quad-IDX
> >   (in)   max-home-z (input)
> >
> >
> >
> >
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>
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> 

Re: [Emc-users] Running PathPilot on non-Tormach Machines

[andrew beck]

Just a quick note.

I think they run a standard mesa card.



On Tue, 24 Jan 2023, 18:22 John Dammeyer,  wrote:

> -Original Message-
> > From: Ron Ginger [mailto:rongin...@roadrunner.com]
> >
> > I would like to try to run PathPilot on my own mill. I now run Mach4,
> > but I would like to see how well PathPilot works.
> >
> > I see I can simply download a copy from the Tormach site.  what
> > interface board do I need?
> >
> > What is Tormachs position on this? I know they have to release the code
> > because it is based on open source, but do they oppose its use?
> >
> > thanks
> >
> > ron ginger
> >
>
> Hi Ron,
> Long time.
> Have you asked Tormach what kind of interface board they use?  I doubt
> it's a parallel port.
>
> My guess is if you use open source LCNC for your system.  Spend the
> time/money to create a custom user interface for it but don't want everyone
> using it you'd likely use a customized piece of hardware as the break out
> board.
>
> However, unlike MACH, the two important files in LCNC are the .INI and
> .HAL files.  In the Tormach image those two will describe how they talk to
> the machine hardware.
>
> For example I use a MESA 7i92H and for a while had dual boot for WIN-XP
> and LCNC to a PMDX-126 break out board.  It's Ethernet to the MESA which
> emulates two parallel ports onto the PMDX.
>
> Here's how I documented (for my own needs) the first parallel port with
> the DB-25 pins cross referenced to the MESA pins.
>
> Looking forward to what you find out.
> John Dammeyer
>
> # external I/O signals
> # IO Connections for P2 MESA 7i92_PMDX126Ax2D.pin  (modified from pin file)
> # DBn.m_PMDX_Jn.m  I/O   Pri.func  Sec. func   Chan  Pin func
>   Pin DirSystem usage
>
> # P1.1_J6.2 0   IOPort None
>   (Out)  machine-is-enabled (output)
> # P1.14_J6.31   IOPort PWM  0PWM
>(Out)  spindle-vel-cmd-rps PWM (output)
> # P1.2_J4.2 2   IOPort StepGen  0Step/Table1
>(Out)  x axis step pulse (output)
> # P1.15_J12.9   3   IOPort None
>   (In)   max-x-y-min-z (input)
> # P1.3_J4.3 4   IOPort StepGen  0Dir/Table2
>   (Out)  x axis dir signal (output)
> # P1.16_J6.45   IOPort None
>   (Out)  spindle-ccw output (output)
> # P1.4_J3.2 6   IOPort StepGen  1Step/Table1
>(Out)  y axis step pulse (output)
> # P1.17_J6.57   IOPort StepGen  4Step/Table1
>(Out)  Charge Pump frequency (output)
> # P1.5_J3.3 8   IOPort StepGen  1Dir/Table2
>   (Out)  y axis dir signal (output)
> # P1.6_J2.2 9   IOPort StepGen  2Step/Table1
>(Out)  z axis step pulse (output)
> # P1.7_J2.3 10  IOPort StepGen  2Dir/Table2
>   (Out)  z axis dir signal (output)
> # P1.8_J1.2 11  IOPort StepGen  3Step/Table1
>(Out)  a axis step pulse (output)
> # P1.9_J1.2 12  IOPort StepGen  3Dir/Table2
>   (Out)  a axis dir signal (output)
> # P1.10_J13.4   13  IOPort None
>   (In)   estop-external-in (input)
> # P1.11_J12.3   14  IOPort QCount   0Quad-A
>   (In)   min home-x (input)
> # P1.12_J12.5   15  IOPort QCount   0Quad-B
>   (In)   min home-y (input)
> # P1.13_J12.7   16  IOPort QCount   0Quad-IDX
>   (in)   max-home-z (input)
>
>
>
>
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Re: [Emc-users] Running PathPilot on non-Tormach Machines

[John Dammeyer]

-Original Message-
> From: Ron Ginger [mailto:rongin...@roadrunner.com]
> 
> I would like to try to run PathPilot on my own mill. I now run Mach4,
> but I would like to see how well PathPilot works.
> 
> I see I can simply download a copy from the Tormach site.  what
> interface board do I need?
> 
> What is Tormachs position on this? I know they have to release the code
> because it is based on open source, but do they oppose its use?
> 
> thanks
> 
> ron ginger
> 

Hi Ron,
Long time.  
Have you asked Tormach what kind of interface board they use?  I doubt it's a 
parallel port.  

My guess is if you use open source LCNC for your system.  Spend the time/money 
to create a custom user interface for it but don't want everyone using it you'd 
likely use a customized piece of hardware as the break out board.

However, unlike MACH, the two important files in LCNC are the .INI and .HAL 
files.  In the Tormach image those two will describe how they talk to the 
machine hardware.  

For example I use a MESA 7i92H and for a while had dual boot for WIN-XP and 
LCNC to a PMDX-126 break out board.  It's Ethernet to the MESA which emulates 
two parallel ports onto the PMDX.

Here's how I documented (for my own needs) the first parallel port with the 
DB-25 pins cross referenced to the MESA pins.

Looking forward to what you find out.
John Dammeyer

# external I/O signals
# IO Connections for P2 MESA 7i92_PMDX126Ax2D.pin  (modified from pin file)
# DBn.m_PMDX_Jn.m  I/O   Pri.func  Sec. func   Chan  Pin func
Pin DirSystem usage

# P1.1_J6.2 0   IOPort None  
(Out)  machine-is-enabled (output)
# P1.14_J6.31   IOPort PWM  0PWM 
(Out)  spindle-vel-cmd-rps PWM (output)
# P1.2_J4.2 2   IOPort StepGen  0Step/Table1 
(Out)  x axis step pulse (output)
# P1.15_J12.9   3   IOPort None  
(In)   max-x-y-min-z (input)
# P1.3_J4.3 4   IOPort StepGen  0Dir/Table2  
(Out)  x axis dir signal (output)
# P1.16_J6.45   IOPort None  
(Out)  spindle-ccw output (output)
# P1.4_J3.2 6   IOPort StepGen  1Step/Table1 
(Out)  y axis step pulse (output)
# P1.17_J6.57   IOPort StepGen  4Step/Table1 
(Out)  Charge Pump frequency (output)
# P1.5_J3.3 8   IOPort StepGen  1Dir/Table2  
(Out)  y axis dir signal (output)
# P1.6_J2.2 9   IOPort StepGen  2Step/Table1 
(Out)  z axis step pulse (output)
# P1.7_J2.3 10  IOPort StepGen  2Dir/Table2  
(Out)  z axis dir signal (output)
# P1.8_J1.2 11  IOPort StepGen  3Step/Table1 
(Out)  a axis step pulse (output)
# P1.9_J1.2 12  IOPort StepGen  3Dir/Table2  
(Out)  a axis dir signal (output)
# P1.10_J13.4   13  IOPort None  
(In)   estop-external-in (input)
# P1.11_J12.3   14  IOPort QCount   0Quad-A  
(In)   min home-x (input)
# P1.12_J12.5   15  IOPort QCount   0Quad-B  
(In)   min home-y (input)
# P1.13_J12.7   16  IOPort QCount   0Quad-IDX
(in)   max-home-z (input)




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Re: [Emc-users] Running PathPilot on non-Tormach Machines

[Chris Albertson]

On Sun, Jan 22, 2023 at 6:23 PM Ron Ginger  wrote:

>
> I see I can simply download a copy from the Tormach site.  what
> interface board do I need?
>

I doubt Pathpilot talks directly to any interface board.  It is a user
interface and likely generates g-code.

Why not try it and tell us what happens?

-- 

Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California

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Re: [Emc-users] Running PathPilot on non-Tormach Machines

[andy pugh]

On Mon, 23 Jan 2023 at 02:23, Ron Ginger  wrote:

> I see I can simply download a copy from the Tormach site.  what
> interface board do I need?

I think that smgvbest on the forum is the expert on this.

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912


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