Re: [E-devel] Egui - EFL gui builder

[Tom Hacohen]

On 03/05/13 17:35, Gustavo Sverzut Barbieri wrote:
> On Fri, May 3, 2013 at 12:33 PM, Tom Hacohen  > wrote:
>
> On 03/05/13 16:03, Gustavo Sverzut Barbieri wrote:
>
> On Fri, May 3, 2013 at 8:35 AM, Cedric BAIL  > wrote:
>
> On Fri, May 3, 2013 at 8:13 PM, Gustavo Sverzut Barbieri
> mailto:barbi...@profusion.mobi>>
> wrote:
>
> It is not about generating code, people just don't get it
>
>
> For people to get it, we need many things to improve the
> situation in
> Elev8. We need to polish its introduction in Enlightenment
> and provide
> an easy way to distribute gadget/apps. Along with some
> documentation
> that would help spread it and show case what it is good for.
> In my opinion JS is not a tool good for everything. Any
> application
> that require a team to maintain it over time with a more
> than 1000
> lines of code is going to suffer with it. Hopefully that
> still leave a
> lot of application possible. I am thinking about all the
> configuration
> tools here : connman, cups, transmission, ... It should also
> be good
> for webservice integration like reddit and friends. And
> finally it
> should be good for casual game to. We should be able to code
> elemines
> or efbb more easily in Elev8 (We need an easy-game helper
> maybe :-)).
> But JS wont be good for an integrated communication
> suite, an IDE, a
> web browser, ... So we need tool to help the development of
> both side.
> In the JS/EasyUI world, it is mostly integration with E and
> distribution of application. In C, it is more an IDE that we
> need.
> Both work are orthogonal in my opinion.
>
>
> This is complete nonsense. With JS you can modularize as well as
> in C,
> actually the language constructs makes it easier to modularize.
>
> The performance of a hundred thousand lines of code with JS is
> not an
> issue, as the sensitive areas are basically done in C (with
> elev8/efl),
> also the V8 can optimize quite well some loops and access, thus
> moot point.
> Moreover, from the hundred thousand lines case, you're often
> executing
> small parts of it at the same time, afterall you can't fit much
> in one user
> screen.
>
> As for your points "JS won't be good", let's review it with reality:
>  - communication suite: the best communication suite out
> there is written
> in HTML5 + JS, it is called Gmail + Gtalk
>  - an IDE: adobe and others disagree, http://brackets.io/ is
> fully JS and
> HTML5. Let's not forget that we both use Emacs, that is written
> mostly in
> Elisp, that is far from being as optimized as JS nowadays;
>  - web browser: the browser itself is a very thin layer, I
> can't see why
> a browser chrome couldn't be written in JS.. the heavy work is
> all in
> WebKit/Blink, you just need to get some signals and update the
> title,
> progress...
>
> I just don't understand why people don't understand. Also I don't
> understand why I still bother to write this stuff.
>
>
> I understand!
>
> But the problem is that there are no decent examples for what you
> are describing, not for the efl anyway.
>
> I've said it before, had you written econnman in elev8, everyone
> would have been able to see the benefits.
>
> Just write a nice, modular, simple example that people can base
> their work on. The problem is the lack of "skeleton" code. Or at
> least, that's the way I see it.
>
>
> http://svn.enlightenment.org/svn/e/trunk/PROTO/easyui/easy-connman.js
>
> what's up with that?

Was kept a highly guarded secret? First time I'm seeing that.

Anyhow though, it's not an example of a nicely split project, but it is 
something I'll start on using, and we should consider putting into e.

--
Tom.


--
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Re: [E-devel] Egui - EFL gui builder

[Gustavo Sverzut Barbieri]

i found your mail so disturbing I'm refraining to reply to it publicly.

tl;dr: rip elev8, the stillbirth


On Sat, May 4, 2013 at 9:30 AM, Cedric BAIL  wrote:

> On Sat, May 4, 2013 at 12:03 AM, Gustavo Sverzut Barbieri
>  wrote:
> > On Fri, May 3, 2013 at 8:35 AM, Cedric BAIL  wrote:
> >> On Fri, May 3, 2013 at 8:13 PM, Gustavo Sverzut Barbieri
> >>  wrote:
> >> > It is not about generating code, people just don't get it
> >>
> >> For people to get it, we need many things to improve the situation in
> >> Elev8. We need to polish its introduction in Enlightenment and provide
> >> an easy way to distribute gadget/apps. Along with some documentation
> >> that would help spread it and show case what it is good for.
> >>   In my opinion JS is not a tool good for everything. Any application
> >> that require a team to maintain it over time with a more than 1000
> >> lines of code is going to suffer with it. Hopefully that still leave a
> >> lot of application possible. I am thinking about all the configuration
> >> tools here : connman, cups, transmission, ... It should also be good
> >> for webservice integration like reddit and friends. And finally it
> >> should be good for casual game to. We should be able to code elemines
> >> or efbb more easily in Elev8 (We need an easy-game helper maybe :-)).
> >>   But JS wont be good for an integrated communication suite, an IDE, a
> >> web browser, ... So we need tool to help the development of both side.
> >> In the JS/EasyUI world, it is mostly integration with E and
> >> distribution of application. In C, it is more an IDE that we need.
> >> Both work are orthogonal in my opinion.
> >
> > This is complete nonsense. With JS you can modularize as well as in C,
> > actually the language constructs makes it easier to modularize.
>
> No it doesn't. It force you to do it carefully. You have weird scope
> rules and no type checking. That is a great source of pain for any one
> working in team on the same JS. Oh, and you also have no compiler,
> static analyzer, valgrind, callgrind and massif. Chrome has some good
> tools like a debugger and some performance analysis, but far from what
> you get by going native and elev8 has none of those.
>
> > The performance of a hundred thousand lines of code with JS is not an
> > issue, as the sensitive areas are basically done in C (with elev8/efl),
> > also the V8 can optimize quite well some loops and access, thus moot
> point.
> > Moreover, from the hundred thousand lines case, you're often executing
> > small parts of it at the same time, afterall you can't fit much in one
> user
> > screen.
>
> Number of lines of code is all about maintenance of code, not
> performance that's another topic. If you do any of those small games
> and small application, you are not going to hit any performance issue
> for sure and no maintenance issue to. But for anything bigger and you
> are going to ask for a lot of trouble. Didn't you never ask yourself
> why there is no open source php/html5 what so ever application that
> does provide the same kind of tool that gmail/gtalk does ? It is an
> imap client and a xmpp client, so nothing complex to implement... So
> where are the alternative that work ?
>
> > As for your points "JS won't be good", let's review it with reality:
> >- communication suite: the best communication suite out there is
> written
> > in HTML5 + JS, it is called Gmail + Gtalk
> >- an IDE: adobe and others disagree, http://brackets.io/ is fully JS
> and
> > HTML5. Let's not forget that we both use Emacs, that is written mostly in
> > Elisp, that is far from being as optimized as JS nowadays;
> >- web browser: the browser itself is a very thin layer, I can't see
> why
> > a browser chrome couldn't be written in JS.. the heavy work is all in
> > WebKit/Blink, you just need to get some signals and update the title,
> > progress...
>
> The last time I checked, Gmail, Gtalk, Facebook and LinkedIn where
> native on both iOS and Android. They did that because they had
> performance, maintenance and debugging issue. I will let you review
> those proper article. Also according to some Facebook article I read,
> they needed only a very few number of people to redo it natively. I am
> going to bet that their HTML5 team is way bigger to do the same task.
> And for the general argument of HTML5 is so good, the first thing
> I do when I switch my laptop to battery is to turn off my web browser
> and powertop instantly gratify me of 2 more hours of autonomy. There
> is still a long way to go to have a silver bullet there. And that's
> only application done by the most HTML5 engaged company. If they can't
> manage it properly, a small team is not going to make it. That's my
> point here.
>
>Also you forget the main point of HTML5, the one that is the most
> important, instant deployment. It is this feature alone that make this
> technology so useful. And we have nothing close to that in elev8.
> Elev8 will never takeoff, i

Re: [E-devel] Egui - EFL gui builder

[Cedric BAIL]

On Sat, May 4, 2013 at 12:03 AM, Gustavo Sverzut Barbieri
 wrote:
> On Fri, May 3, 2013 at 8:35 AM, Cedric BAIL  wrote:
>> On Fri, May 3, 2013 at 8:13 PM, Gustavo Sverzut Barbieri
>>  wrote:
>> > It is not about generating code, people just don't get it
>>
>> For people to get it, we need many things to improve the situation in
>> Elev8. We need to polish its introduction in Enlightenment and provide
>> an easy way to distribute gadget/apps. Along with some documentation
>> that would help spread it and show case what it is good for.
>>   In my opinion JS is not a tool good for everything. Any application
>> that require a team to maintain it over time with a more than 1000
>> lines of code is going to suffer with it. Hopefully that still leave a
>> lot of application possible. I am thinking about all the configuration
>> tools here : connman, cups, transmission, ... It should also be good
>> for webservice integration like reddit and friends. And finally it
>> should be good for casual game to. We should be able to code elemines
>> or efbb more easily in Elev8 (We need an easy-game helper maybe :-)).
>>   But JS wont be good for an integrated communication suite, an IDE, a
>> web browser, ... So we need tool to help the development of both side.
>> In the JS/EasyUI world, it is mostly integration with E and
>> distribution of application. In C, it is more an IDE that we need.
>> Both work are orthogonal in my opinion.
>
> This is complete nonsense. With JS you can modularize as well as in C,
> actually the language constructs makes it easier to modularize.

No it doesn't. It force you to do it carefully. You have weird scope
rules and no type checking. That is a great source of pain for any one
working in team on the same JS. Oh, and you also have no compiler,
static analyzer, valgrind, callgrind and massif. Chrome has some good
tools like a debugger and some performance analysis, but far from what
you get by going native and elev8 has none of those.

> The performance of a hundred thousand lines of code with JS is not an
> issue, as the sensitive areas are basically done in C (with elev8/efl),
> also the V8 can optimize quite well some loops and access, thus moot point.
> Moreover, from the hundred thousand lines case, you're often executing
> small parts of it at the same time, afterall you can't fit much in one user
> screen.

Number of lines of code is all about maintenance of code, not
performance that's another topic. If you do any of those small games
and small application, you are not going to hit any performance issue
for sure and no maintenance issue to. But for anything bigger and you
are going to ask for a lot of trouble. Didn't you never ask yourself
why there is no open source php/html5 what so ever application that
does provide the same kind of tool that gmail/gtalk does ? It is an
imap client and a xmpp client, so nothing complex to implement... So
where are the alternative that work ?

> As for your points "JS won't be good", let's review it with reality:
>- communication suite: the best communication suite out there is written
> in HTML5 + JS, it is called Gmail + Gtalk
>- an IDE: adobe and others disagree, http://brackets.io/ is fully JS and
> HTML5. Let's not forget that we both use Emacs, that is written mostly in
> Elisp, that is far from being as optimized as JS nowadays;
>- web browser: the browser itself is a very thin layer, I can't see why
> a browser chrome couldn't be written in JS.. the heavy work is all in
> WebKit/Blink, you just need to get some signals and update the title,
> progress...

The last time I checked, Gmail, Gtalk, Facebook and LinkedIn where
native on both iOS and Android. They did that because they had
performance, maintenance and debugging issue. I will let you review
those proper article. Also according to some Facebook article I read,
they needed only a very few number of people to redo it natively. I am
going to bet that their HTML5 team is way bigger to do the same task.
And for the general argument of HTML5 is so good, the first thing
I do when I switch my laptop to battery is to turn off my web browser
and powertop instantly gratify me of 2 more hours of autonomy. There
is still a long way to go to have a silver bullet there. And that's
only application done by the most HTML5 engaged company. If they can't
manage it properly, a small team is not going to make it. That's my
point here.

   Also you forget the main point of HTML5, the one that is the most
important, instant deployment. It is this feature alone that make this
technology so useful. And we have nothing close to that in elev8.
Elev8 will never takeoff, if we don't have at least that feature.

   I do think there is path to make that happen, because I do think
that elev8 is useful for a certain number of case. So I do think we
need to polish and prepare for inclusion Elev8 as an Enlightenment
module with a simple way to download and install new gadget. At the
same time prepar

Re: [E-devel] Egui - EFL gui builder

[Gustavo Sverzut Barbieri]

On 03/05/2013, at 23:22, Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) 
 wrote:

> On Fri, 3 May 2013 13:37:18 -0300 Gustavo Sverzut Barbieri
>  said:
> 
>> On Fri, May 3, 2013 at 12:38 PM, Carsten Haitzler 
>> wrote:
>> 
>>> On Fri, 3 May 2013 12:03:22 -0300 Gustavo Sverzut Barbieri
>>>  said:
>>> 
 On Fri, May 3, 2013 at 8:35 AM, Cedric BAIL  wrote:
 
> On Fri, May 3, 2013 at 8:13 PM, Gustavo Sverzut Barbieri
>  wrote:
>> It is not about generating code, people just don't get it
> 
> For people to get it, we need many things to improve the situation in
> Elev8. We need to polish its introduction in Enlightenment and provide
> an easy way to distribute gadget/apps. Along with some documentation
> that would help spread it and show case what it is good for.
>  In my opinion JS is not a tool good for everything. Any application
> that require a team to maintain it over time with a more than 1000
> lines of code is going to suffer with it. Hopefully that still leave a
> lot of application possible. I am thinking about all the configuration
> tools here : connman, cups, transmission, ... It should also be good
> for webservice integration like reddit and friends. And finally it
> should be good for casual game to. We should be able to code elemines
> or efbb more easily in Elev8 (We need an easy-game helper maybe :-)).
>  But JS wont be good for an integrated communication suite, an IDE, a
> web browser, ... So we need tool to help the development of both side.
> In the JS/EasyUI world, it is mostly integration with E and
> distribution of application. In C, it is more an IDE that we need.
> Both work are orthogonal in my opinion.
 
 This is complete nonsense. With JS you can modularize as well as in C,
 actually the language constructs makes it easier to modularize.
 
 The performance of a hundred thousand lines of code with JS is not an
 issue, as the sensitive areas are basically done in C (with elev8/efl),
 also the V8 can optimize quite well some loops and access, thus moot
>>> point.
 Moreover, from the hundred thousand lines case, you're often executing
 small parts of it at the same time, afterall you can't fit much in one
>>> user
 screen.
 
 As for your points "JS won't be good", let's review it with reality:
   - communication suite: the best communication suite out there is
>>> written
 in HTML5 + JS, it is called Gmail + Gtalk
   - an IDE: adobe and others disagree, http://brackets.io/ is fully JS
>>> and
 HTML5. Let's not forget that we both use Emacs, that is written mostly in
 Elisp, that is far from being as optimized as JS nowadays;
   - web browser: the browser itself is a very thin layer, I can't see
>>> why
 a browser chrome couldn't be written in JS.. the heavy work is all in
 WebKit/Blink, you just need to get some signals and update the title,
 progress...
 
 I just don't understand why people don't understand. Also I don't
 understand why I still bother to write this stuff.
>>> 
>>> performance wise js is fun as long as you can pass off the heavy lifting to
>>> native code and it's doing the logic/direction at the higher level. no
>>> problem
>>> with that.
>>> 
>>> the issues here are:
>>> 
>>> 1. the actual target audience is currently developing apps with efl as
>>> native.
>>> they like it that way. they want it that way. changing that desire is very
>>> hard, so let's service the desire and make things easier
>>> 2. the intent is to support elev8 later as well, but first service the
>>> desire
>>> of the people who are paying for it.
>>> 3. it's impossible to sensibly tell people to "write in elev8/js" vs native
>>> because it is so limited/crippled right now. we have a long way to go to
>>> fill
>>> it out with functionality first so it can be even close to native in terms
>>> of
>>> what it can do (even if slowly or whatever - which is not something i
>>> intent to
>>> argue about given the other reasons).
>> 
>> limited like what? even the fs module that I hugely dislike is in there,
>> there is http, dbus and other methods to communicate.
> 
> bare rect, bare image, bare edje, bare image, bare text, bare textblock, bare
> emotion,

Ahahah. Are you checking reality lately? Other than debug and tests, these are 
unused for applications.

Moreover, if this is the big deal, it is not something big to fix. But it's 
just not worth because it won't change a thing, it will always be ignored and 
will bitrot.



> no evas map controls, proxy src controls,

This is correct, was in the plan by means of properties. Not as done in C as it 
is unusable by average user, even with the utile helpers. :-( nonetheless you 
can get the effect with edje, so to some extent (not all) you can get the 
effects. 



> animators must be tied to
> elm objects only, no animator timeline (animators run over specific time
> interval

Re: [E-devel] Egui - EFL gui builder

[The Rasterman]

On Fri, 3 May 2013 13:37:18 -0300 Gustavo Sverzut Barbieri
 said:

> On Fri, May 3, 2013 at 12:38 PM, Carsten Haitzler wrote:
> 
> > On Fri, 3 May 2013 12:03:22 -0300 Gustavo Sverzut Barbieri
> >  said:
> >
> > > On Fri, May 3, 2013 at 8:35 AM, Cedric BAIL  wrote:
> > >
> > > > On Fri, May 3, 2013 at 8:13 PM, Gustavo Sverzut Barbieri
> > > >  wrote:
> > > > > It is not about generating code, people just don't get it
> > > >
> > > > For people to get it, we need many things to improve the situation in
> > > > Elev8. We need to polish its introduction in Enlightenment and provide
> > > > an easy way to distribute gadget/apps. Along with some documentation
> > > > that would help spread it and show case what it is good for.
> > > >   In my opinion JS is not a tool good for everything. Any application
> > > > that require a team to maintain it over time with a more than 1000
> > > > lines of code is going to suffer with it. Hopefully that still leave a
> > > > lot of application possible. I am thinking about all the configuration
> > > > tools here : connman, cups, transmission, ... It should also be good
> > > > for webservice integration like reddit and friends. And finally it
> > > > should be good for casual game to. We should be able to code elemines
> > > > or efbb more easily in Elev8 (We need an easy-game helper maybe :-)).
> > > >   But JS wont be good for an integrated communication suite, an IDE, a
> > > > web browser, ... So we need tool to help the development of both side.
> > > > In the JS/EasyUI world, it is mostly integration with E and
> > > > distribution of application. In C, it is more an IDE that we need.
> > > > Both work are orthogonal in my opinion.
> > > >
> > >
> > > This is complete nonsense. With JS you can modularize as well as in C,
> > > actually the language constructs makes it easier to modularize.
> > >
> > > The performance of a hundred thousand lines of code with JS is not an
> > > issue, as the sensitive areas are basically done in C (with elev8/efl),
> > > also the V8 can optimize quite well some loops and access, thus moot
> > point.
> > > Moreover, from the hundred thousand lines case, you're often executing
> > > small parts of it at the same time, afterall you can't fit much in one
> > user
> > > screen.
> > >
> > > As for your points "JS won't be good", let's review it with reality:
> > >- communication suite: the best communication suite out there is
> > written
> > > in HTML5 + JS, it is called Gmail + Gtalk
> > >- an IDE: adobe and others disagree, http://brackets.io/ is fully JS
> > and
> > > HTML5. Let's not forget that we both use Emacs, that is written mostly in
> > > Elisp, that is far from being as optimized as JS nowadays;
> > >- web browser: the browser itself is a very thin layer, I can't see
> > why
> > > a browser chrome couldn't be written in JS.. the heavy work is all in
> > > WebKit/Blink, you just need to get some signals and update the title,
> > > progress...
> > >
> > > I just don't understand why people don't understand. Also I don't
> > > understand why I still bother to write this stuff.
> >
> > performance wise js is fun as long as you can pass off the heavy lifting to
> > native code and it's doing the logic/direction at the higher level. no
> > problem
> > with that.
> >
> > the issues here are:
> >
> > 1. the actual target audience is currently developing apps with efl as
> > native.
> > they like it that way. they want it that way. changing that desire is very
> > hard, so let's service the desire and make things easier
> > 2. the intent is to support elev8 later as well, but first service the
> > desire
> > of the people who are paying for it.
> > 3. it's impossible to sensibly tell people to "write in elev8/js" vs native
> > because it is so limited/crippled right now. we have a long way to go to
> > fill
> > it out with functionality first so it can be even close to native in terms
> > of
> > what it can do (even if slowly or whatever - which is not something i
> > intent to
> > argue about given the other reasons).
> >
> 
> limited like what? even the fs module that I hugely dislike is in there,
> there is http, dbus and other methods to communicate.

bare rect, bare image, bare edje, bare image, bare text, bare textblock, bare
emotion, no evas map controls, proxy src controls, animators must be tied to
elm objects only, no animator timeline (animators run over specific time
interval and pass in interval position 0->1), no eet, no efreet, no ephysics,
ecore-ipc, ecore-audio, ecore-imf, eeze, ephysics, ethumb...

> the only thing is missing now is the option to create a bare rectangle,
> which is doubtful in real life given that most UI elements are edje
> elements... and they exist in eui right now

you missed my comment "cannot write efbb". you need raw images, direct map
controls etc. just to begin with...

> -- 
> Gustavo Sverzut Barbieri
> http://profusion.mobi embedded systems
> --

Re: [E-devel] Egui - EFL gui builder

[Gustavo Sverzut Barbieri]

On Fri, May 3, 2013 at 12:38 PM, Carsten Haitzler wrote:

> On Fri, 3 May 2013 12:03:22 -0300 Gustavo Sverzut Barbieri
>  said:
>
> > On Fri, May 3, 2013 at 8:35 AM, Cedric BAIL  wrote:
> >
> > > On Fri, May 3, 2013 at 8:13 PM, Gustavo Sverzut Barbieri
> > >  wrote:
> > > > It is not about generating code, people just don't get it
> > >
> > > For people to get it, we need many things to improve the situation in
> > > Elev8. We need to polish its introduction in Enlightenment and provide
> > > an easy way to distribute gadget/apps. Along with some documentation
> > > that would help spread it and show case what it is good for.
> > >   In my opinion JS is not a tool good for everything. Any application
> > > that require a team to maintain it over time with a more than 1000
> > > lines of code is going to suffer with it. Hopefully that still leave a
> > > lot of application possible. I am thinking about all the configuration
> > > tools here : connman, cups, transmission, ... It should also be good
> > > for webservice integration like reddit and friends. And finally it
> > > should be good for casual game to. We should be able to code elemines
> > > or efbb more easily in Elev8 (We need an easy-game helper maybe :-)).
> > >   But JS wont be good for an integrated communication suite, an IDE, a
> > > web browser, ... So we need tool to help the development of both side.
> > > In the JS/EasyUI world, it is mostly integration with E and
> > > distribution of application. In C, it is more an IDE that we need.
> > > Both work are orthogonal in my opinion.
> > >
> >
> > This is complete nonsense. With JS you can modularize as well as in C,
> > actually the language constructs makes it easier to modularize.
> >
> > The performance of a hundred thousand lines of code with JS is not an
> > issue, as the sensitive areas are basically done in C (with elev8/efl),
> > also the V8 can optimize quite well some loops and access, thus moot
> point.
> > Moreover, from the hundred thousand lines case, you're often executing
> > small parts of it at the same time, afterall you can't fit much in one
> user
> > screen.
> >
> > As for your points "JS won't be good", let's review it with reality:
> >- communication suite: the best communication suite out there is
> written
> > in HTML5 + JS, it is called Gmail + Gtalk
> >- an IDE: adobe and others disagree, http://brackets.io/ is fully JS
> and
> > HTML5. Let's not forget that we both use Emacs, that is written mostly in
> > Elisp, that is far from being as optimized as JS nowadays;
> >- web browser: the browser itself is a very thin layer, I can't see
> why
> > a browser chrome couldn't be written in JS.. the heavy work is all in
> > WebKit/Blink, you just need to get some signals and update the title,
> > progress...
> >
> > I just don't understand why people don't understand. Also I don't
> > understand why I still bother to write this stuff.
>
> performance wise js is fun as long as you can pass off the heavy lifting to
> native code and it's doing the logic/direction at the higher level. no
> problem
> with that.
>
> the issues here are:
>
> 1. the actual target audience is currently developing apps with efl as
> native.
> they like it that way. they want it that way. changing that desire is very
> hard, so let's service the desire and make things easier
> 2. the intent is to support elev8 later as well, but first service the
> desire
> of the people who are paying for it.
> 3. it's impossible to sensibly tell people to "write in elev8/js" vs native
> because it is so limited/crippled right now. we have a long way to go to
> fill
> it out with functionality first so it can be even close to native in terms
> of
> what it can do (even if slowly or whatever - which is not something i
> intent to
> argue about given the other reasons).
>

limited like what? even the fs module that I hugely dislike is in there,
there is http, dbus and other methods to communicate.

the only thing is missing now is the option to create a bare rectangle,
which is doubtful in real life given that most UI elements are edje
elements... and they exist in eui right now

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Re: [E-devel] Egui - EFL gui builder

[Gustavo Sverzut Barbieri]

On Fri, May 3, 2013 at 12:33 PM, Tom Hacohen wrote:

> On 03/05/13 16:03, Gustavo Sverzut Barbieri wrote:
>
>> On Fri, May 3, 2013 at 8:35 AM, Cedric BAIL  wrote:
>>
>>  On Fri, May 3, 2013 at 8:13 PM, Gustavo Sverzut Barbieri
>>>  wrote:
>>>
 It is not about generating code, people just don't get it

>>>
>>> For people to get it, we need many things to improve the situation in
>>> Elev8. We need to polish its introduction in Enlightenment and provide
>>> an easy way to distribute gadget/apps. Along with some documentation
>>> that would help spread it and show case what it is good for.
>>>In my opinion JS is not a tool good for everything. Any application
>>> that require a team to maintain it over time with a more than 1000
>>> lines of code is going to suffer with it. Hopefully that still leave a
>>> lot of application possible. I am thinking about all the configuration
>>> tools here : connman, cups, transmission, ... It should also be good
>>> for webservice integration like reddit and friends. And finally it
>>> should be good for casual game to. We should be able to code elemines
>>> or efbb more easily in Elev8 (We need an easy-game helper maybe :-)).
>>>But JS wont be good for an integrated communication suite, an IDE, a
>>> web browser, ... So we need tool to help the development of both side.
>>> In the JS/EasyUI world, it is mostly integration with E and
>>> distribution of application. In C, it is more an IDE that we need.
>>> Both work are orthogonal in my opinion.
>>>
>>>
>> This is complete nonsense. With JS you can modularize as well as in C,
>> actually the language constructs makes it easier to modularize.
>>
>> The performance of a hundred thousand lines of code with JS is not an
>> issue, as the sensitive areas are basically done in C (with elev8/efl),
>> also the V8 can optimize quite well some loops and access, thus moot
>> point.
>> Moreover, from the hundred thousand lines case, you're often executing
>> small parts of it at the same time, afterall you can't fit much in one
>> user
>> screen.
>>
>> As for your points "JS won't be good", let's review it with reality:
>> - communication suite: the best communication suite out there is
>> written
>> in HTML5 + JS, it is called Gmail + Gtalk
>> - an IDE: adobe and others disagree, http://brackets.io/ is fully JS
>> and
>> HTML5. Let's not forget that we both use Emacs, that is written mostly in
>> Elisp, that is far from being as optimized as JS nowadays;
>> - web browser: the browser itself is a very thin layer, I can't see
>> why
>> a browser chrome couldn't be written in JS.. the heavy work is all in
>> WebKit/Blink, you just need to get some signals and update the title,
>> progress...
>>
>> I just don't understand why people don't understand. Also I don't
>> understand why I still bother to write this stuff.
>>
>
> I understand!
>
> But the problem is that there are no decent examples for what you are
> describing, not for the efl anyway.
>
> I've said it before, had you written econnman in elev8, everyone would
> have been able to see the benefits.
>
> Just write a nice, modular, simple example that people can base their work
> on. The problem is the lack of "skeleton" code. Or at least, that's the way
> I see it.


http://svn.enlightenment.org/svn/e/trunk/PROTO/easyui/easy-connman.js

what's up with that?


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Re: [E-devel] Egui - EFL gui builder

[Tom Hacohen]

On 03/05/13 16:42, Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote:
> On Fri, 03 May 2013 16:33:08 +0100 Tom Hacohen  said:
>
>> On 03/05/13 16:03, Gustavo Sverzut Barbieri wrote:
>>> On Fri, May 3, 2013 at 8:35 AM, Cedric BAIL  wrote:
>>>
 On Fri, May 3, 2013 at 8:13 PM, Gustavo Sverzut Barbieri
  wrote:
> It is not about generating code, people just don't get it

 For people to get it, we need many things to improve the situation in
 Elev8. We need to polish its introduction in Enlightenment and provide
 an easy way to distribute gadget/apps. Along with some documentation
 that would help spread it and show case what it is good for.
 In my opinion JS is not a tool good for everything. Any application
 that require a team to maintain it over time with a more than 1000
 lines of code is going to suffer with it. Hopefully that still leave a
 lot of application possible. I am thinking about all the configuration
 tools here : connman, cups, transmission, ... It should also be good
 for webservice integration like reddit and friends. And finally it
 should be good for casual game to. We should be able to code elemines
 or efbb more easily in Elev8 (We need an easy-game helper maybe :-)).
 But JS wont be good for an integrated communication suite, an IDE, a
 web browser, ... So we need tool to help the development of both side.
 In the JS/EasyUI world, it is mostly integration with E and
 distribution of application. In C, it is more an IDE that we need.
 Both work are orthogonal in my opinion.

>>>
>>> This is complete nonsense. With JS you can modularize as well as in C,
>>> actually the language constructs makes it easier to modularize.
>>>
>>> The performance of a hundred thousand lines of code with JS is not an
>>> issue, as the sensitive areas are basically done in C (with elev8/efl),
>>> also the V8 can optimize quite well some loops and access, thus moot point.
>>> Moreover, from the hundred thousand lines case, you're often executing
>>> small parts of it at the same time, afterall you can't fit much in one user
>>> screen.
>>>
>>> As for your points "JS won't be good", let's review it with reality:
>>>  - communication suite: the best communication suite out there is 
>>> written
>>> in HTML5 + JS, it is called Gmail + Gtalk
>>>  - an IDE: adobe and others disagree, http://brackets.io/ is fully JS 
>>> and
>>> HTML5. Let's not forget that we both use Emacs, that is written mostly in
>>> Elisp, that is far from being as optimized as JS nowadays;
>>>  - web browser: the browser itself is a very thin layer, I can't see why
>>> a browser chrome couldn't be written in JS.. the heavy work is all in
>>> WebKit/Blink, you just need to get some signals and update the title,
>>> progress...
>>>
>>> I just don't understand why people don't understand. Also I don't
>>> understand why I still bother to write this stuff.
>>
>> I understand!
>>
>> But the problem is that there are no decent examples for what you are
>> describing, not for the efl anyway.
>>
>> I've said it before, had you written econnman in elev8, everyone would
>> have been able to see the benefits.
>>
>> Just write a nice, modular, simple example that people can base their
>> work on. The problem is the lack of "skeleton" code. Or at least, that's
>> the way I see it.
>
> i don't think this is the problem... i couldn't implement efbb in elev8 right
> now. we need to expand elev8's api (i take back there being no timer - i found
> it. it wasnt in the elm module but in core).
>
> one big thing that could help is using elev8 for e's config. that's a start. 
> we
> can use it for a bunch of simple/dinky apps. but asking people already 
> invested
> in using native code and api's to drop massive amounts of functionality just 
> to
> use elev8 is not going to win friends. :)
>

Maybe it's not *the* problem, but I do think it's somewhere on the top 
of the list. Yes, writing the configs for e would be awesome.

Is elev8 a library already?

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Re: [E-devel] Egui - EFL gui builder

[The Rasterman]

On Fri, 03 May 2013 16:33:08 +0100 Tom Hacohen  said:

> On 03/05/13 16:03, Gustavo Sverzut Barbieri wrote:
> > On Fri, May 3, 2013 at 8:35 AM, Cedric BAIL  wrote:
> >
> >> On Fri, May 3, 2013 at 8:13 PM, Gustavo Sverzut Barbieri
> >>  wrote:
> >>> It is not about generating code, people just don't get it
> >>
> >> For people to get it, we need many things to improve the situation in
> >> Elev8. We need to polish its introduction in Enlightenment and provide
> >> an easy way to distribute gadget/apps. Along with some documentation
> >> that would help spread it and show case what it is good for.
> >>In my opinion JS is not a tool good for everything. Any application
> >> that require a team to maintain it over time with a more than 1000
> >> lines of code is going to suffer with it. Hopefully that still leave a
> >> lot of application possible. I am thinking about all the configuration
> >> tools here : connman, cups, transmission, ... It should also be good
> >> for webservice integration like reddit and friends. And finally it
> >> should be good for casual game to. We should be able to code elemines
> >> or efbb more easily in Elev8 (We need an easy-game helper maybe :-)).
> >>But JS wont be good for an integrated communication suite, an IDE, a
> >> web browser, ... So we need tool to help the development of both side.
> >> In the JS/EasyUI world, it is mostly integration with E and
> >> distribution of application. In C, it is more an IDE that we need.
> >> Both work are orthogonal in my opinion.
> >>
> >
> > This is complete nonsense. With JS you can modularize as well as in C,
> > actually the language constructs makes it easier to modularize.
> >
> > The performance of a hundred thousand lines of code with JS is not an
> > issue, as the sensitive areas are basically done in C (with elev8/efl),
> > also the V8 can optimize quite well some loops and access, thus moot point.
> > Moreover, from the hundred thousand lines case, you're often executing
> > small parts of it at the same time, afterall you can't fit much in one user
> > screen.
> >
> > As for your points "JS won't be good", let's review it with reality:
> > - communication suite: the best communication suite out there is written
> > in HTML5 + JS, it is called Gmail + Gtalk
> > - an IDE: adobe and others disagree, http://brackets.io/ is fully JS and
> > HTML5. Let's not forget that we both use Emacs, that is written mostly in
> > Elisp, that is far from being as optimized as JS nowadays;
> > - web browser: the browser itself is a very thin layer, I can't see why
> > a browser chrome couldn't be written in JS.. the heavy work is all in
> > WebKit/Blink, you just need to get some signals and update the title,
> > progress...
> >
> > I just don't understand why people don't understand. Also I don't
> > understand why I still bother to write this stuff.
> 
> I understand!
> 
> But the problem is that there are no decent examples for what you are 
> describing, not for the efl anyway.
> 
> I've said it before, had you written econnman in elev8, everyone would 
> have been able to see the benefits.
> 
> Just write a nice, modular, simple example that people can base their 
> work on. The problem is the lack of "skeleton" code. Or at least, that's 
> the way I see it.

i don't think this is the problem... i couldn't implement efbb in elev8 right
now. we need to expand elev8's api (i take back there being no timer - i found
it. it wasnt in the elm module but in core).

one big thing that could help is using elev8 for e's config. that's a start. we
can use it for a bunch of simple/dinky apps. but asking people already invested
in using native code and api's to drop massive amounts of functionality just to
use elev8 is not going to win friends. :)

-- 
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Re: [E-devel] Egui - EFL gui builder

[The Rasterman]

On Fri, 3 May 2013 12:03:22 -0300 Gustavo Sverzut Barbieri
 said:

> On Fri, May 3, 2013 at 8:35 AM, Cedric BAIL  wrote:
> 
> > On Fri, May 3, 2013 at 8:13 PM, Gustavo Sverzut Barbieri
> >  wrote:
> > > It is not about generating code, people just don't get it
> >
> > For people to get it, we need many things to improve the situation in
> > Elev8. We need to polish its introduction in Enlightenment and provide
> > an easy way to distribute gadget/apps. Along with some documentation
> > that would help spread it and show case what it is good for.
> >   In my opinion JS is not a tool good for everything. Any application
> > that require a team to maintain it over time with a more than 1000
> > lines of code is going to suffer with it. Hopefully that still leave a
> > lot of application possible. I am thinking about all the configuration
> > tools here : connman, cups, transmission, ... It should also be good
> > for webservice integration like reddit and friends. And finally it
> > should be good for casual game to. We should be able to code elemines
> > or efbb more easily in Elev8 (We need an easy-game helper maybe :-)).
> >   But JS wont be good for an integrated communication suite, an IDE, a
> > web browser, ... So we need tool to help the development of both side.
> > In the JS/EasyUI world, it is mostly integration with E and
> > distribution of application. In C, it is more an IDE that we need.
> > Both work are orthogonal in my opinion.
> >
> 
> This is complete nonsense. With JS you can modularize as well as in C,
> actually the language constructs makes it easier to modularize.
> 
> The performance of a hundred thousand lines of code with JS is not an
> issue, as the sensitive areas are basically done in C (with elev8/efl),
> also the V8 can optimize quite well some loops and access, thus moot point.
> Moreover, from the hundred thousand lines case, you're often executing
> small parts of it at the same time, afterall you can't fit much in one user
> screen.
> 
> As for your points "JS won't be good", let's review it with reality:
>- communication suite: the best communication suite out there is written
> in HTML5 + JS, it is called Gmail + Gtalk
>- an IDE: adobe and others disagree, http://brackets.io/ is fully JS and
> HTML5. Let's not forget that we both use Emacs, that is written mostly in
> Elisp, that is far from being as optimized as JS nowadays;
>- web browser: the browser itself is a very thin layer, I can't see why
> a browser chrome couldn't be written in JS.. the heavy work is all in
> WebKit/Blink, you just need to get some signals and update the title,
> progress...
> 
> I just don't understand why people don't understand. Also I don't
> understand why I still bother to write this stuff.

performance wise js is fun as long as you can pass off the heavy lifting to
native code and it's doing the logic/direction at the higher level. no problem
with that.

the issues here are:

1. the actual target audience is currently developing apps with efl as native.
they like it that way. they want it that way. changing that desire is very
hard, so let's service the desire and make things easier
2. the intent is to support elev8 later as well, but first service the desire
of the people who are paying for it.
3. it's impossible to sensibly tell people to "write in elev8/js" vs native
because it is so limited/crippled right now. we have a long way to go to fill
it out with functionality first so it can be even close to native in terms of
what it can do (even if slowly or whatever - which is not something i intent to
argue about given the other reasons).

> -- 
> Gustavo Sverzut Barbieri
> http://profusion.mobi embedded systems
> --
> MSN: barbi...@gmail.com
> Skype: gsbarbieri
> Mobile: +55 (19) 9225-2202
> --
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> 


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Re: [E-devel] Egui - EFL gui builder

[Tom Hacohen]

On 03/05/13 16:03, Gustavo Sverzut Barbieri wrote:
> On Fri, May 3, 2013 at 8:35 AM, Cedric BAIL  wrote:
>
>> On Fri, May 3, 2013 at 8:13 PM, Gustavo Sverzut Barbieri
>>  wrote:
>>> It is not about generating code, people just don't get it
>>
>> For people to get it, we need many things to improve the situation in
>> Elev8. We need to polish its introduction in Enlightenment and provide
>> an easy way to distribute gadget/apps. Along with some documentation
>> that would help spread it and show case what it is good for.
>>In my opinion JS is not a tool good for everything. Any application
>> that require a team to maintain it over time with a more than 1000
>> lines of code is going to suffer with it. Hopefully that still leave a
>> lot of application possible. I am thinking about all the configuration
>> tools here : connman, cups, transmission, ... It should also be good
>> for webservice integration like reddit and friends. And finally it
>> should be good for casual game to. We should be able to code elemines
>> or efbb more easily in Elev8 (We need an easy-game helper maybe :-)).
>>But JS wont be good for an integrated communication suite, an IDE, a
>> web browser, ... So we need tool to help the development of both side.
>> In the JS/EasyUI world, it is mostly integration with E and
>> distribution of application. In C, it is more an IDE that we need.
>> Both work are orthogonal in my opinion.
>>
>
> This is complete nonsense. With JS you can modularize as well as in C,
> actually the language constructs makes it easier to modularize.
>
> The performance of a hundred thousand lines of code with JS is not an
> issue, as the sensitive areas are basically done in C (with elev8/efl),
> also the V8 can optimize quite well some loops and access, thus moot point.
> Moreover, from the hundred thousand lines case, you're often executing
> small parts of it at the same time, afterall you can't fit much in one user
> screen.
>
> As for your points "JS won't be good", let's review it with reality:
> - communication suite: the best communication suite out there is written
> in HTML5 + JS, it is called Gmail + Gtalk
> - an IDE: adobe and others disagree, http://brackets.io/ is fully JS and
> HTML5. Let's not forget that we both use Emacs, that is written mostly in
> Elisp, that is far from being as optimized as JS nowadays;
> - web browser: the browser itself is a very thin layer, I can't see why
> a browser chrome couldn't be written in JS.. the heavy work is all in
> WebKit/Blink, you just need to get some signals and update the title,
> progress...
>
> I just don't understand why people don't understand. Also I don't
> understand why I still bother to write this stuff.

I understand!

But the problem is that there are no decent examples for what you are 
describing, not for the efl anyway.

I've said it before, had you written econnman in elev8, everyone would 
have been able to see the benefits.

Just write a nice, modular, simple example that people can base their 
work on. The problem is the lack of "skeleton" code. Or at least, that's 
the way I see it.

--
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Re: [E-devel] Egui - EFL gui builder

[Gustavo Sverzut Barbieri]

On Fri, May 3, 2013 at 8:35 AM, Cedric BAIL  wrote:

> On Fri, May 3, 2013 at 8:13 PM, Gustavo Sverzut Barbieri
>  wrote:
> > It is not about generating code, people just don't get it
>
> For people to get it, we need many things to improve the situation in
> Elev8. We need to polish its introduction in Enlightenment and provide
> an easy way to distribute gadget/apps. Along with some documentation
> that would help spread it and show case what it is good for.
>   In my opinion JS is not a tool good for everything. Any application
> that require a team to maintain it over time with a more than 1000
> lines of code is going to suffer with it. Hopefully that still leave a
> lot of application possible. I am thinking about all the configuration
> tools here : connman, cups, transmission, ... It should also be good
> for webservice integration like reddit and friends. And finally it
> should be good for casual game to. We should be able to code elemines
> or efbb more easily in Elev8 (We need an easy-game helper maybe :-)).
>   But JS wont be good for an integrated communication suite, an IDE, a
> web browser, ... So we need tool to help the development of both side.
> In the JS/EasyUI world, it is mostly integration with E and
> distribution of application. In C, it is more an IDE that we need.
> Both work are orthogonal in my opinion.
>

This is complete nonsense. With JS you can modularize as well as in C,
actually the language constructs makes it easier to modularize.

The performance of a hundred thousand lines of code with JS is not an
issue, as the sensitive areas are basically done in C (with elev8/efl),
also the V8 can optimize quite well some loops and access, thus moot point.
Moreover, from the hundred thousand lines case, you're often executing
small parts of it at the same time, afterall you can't fit much in one user
screen.

As for your points "JS won't be good", let's review it with reality:
   - communication suite: the best communication suite out there is written
in HTML5 + JS, it is called Gmail + Gtalk
   - an IDE: adobe and others disagree, http://brackets.io/ is fully JS and
HTML5. Let's not forget that we both use Emacs, that is written mostly in
Elisp, that is far from being as optimized as JS nowadays;
   - web browser: the browser itself is a very thin layer, I can't see why
a browser chrome couldn't be written in JS.. the heavy work is all in
WebKit/Blink, you just need to get some signals and update the title,
progress...

I just don't understand why people don't understand. Also I don't
understand why I still bother to write this stuff.



-- 
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http://profusion.mobi embedded systems
--
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Skype: gsbarbieri
Mobile: +55 (19) 9225-2202
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Re: [E-devel] Egui - EFL gui builder

[Cedric BAIL]

On Fri, May 3, 2013 at 8:13 PM, Gustavo Sverzut Barbieri
 wrote:
> It is not about generating code, people just don't get it

For people to get it, we need many things to improve the situation in
Elev8. We need to polish its introduction in Enlightenment and provide
an easy way to distribute gadget/apps. Along with some documentation
that would help spread it and show case what it is good for.
  In my opinion JS is not a tool good for everything. Any application
that require a team to maintain it over time with a more than 1000
lines of code is going to suffer with it. Hopefully that still leave a
lot of application possible. I am thinking about all the configuration
tools here : connman, cups, transmission, ... It should also be good
for webservice integration like reddit and friends. And finally it
should be good for casual game to. We should be able to code elemines
or efbb more easily in Elev8 (We need an easy-game helper maybe :-)).
  But JS wont be good for an integrated communication suite, an IDE, a
web browser, ... So we need tool to help the development of both side.
In the JS/EasyUI world, it is mostly integration with E and
distribution of application. In C, it is more an IDE that we need.
Both work are orthogonal in my opinion.

Cedric

> On 03/05/2013, at 05:33, Tom Hacohen  wrote:
>> On 03/05/13 00:34, Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote:
>>> On Thu, 2 May 2013 16:30:21 -0300 Gustavo Sverzut Barbieri
>>>  said:
>>>
>>> none of our "users" are programming in javascript... and almost no amount of
>>> suggesting changes that. i want to see elev8 used more, but even *WE* don't 
>>> use
>>> it currently for anything really.
>>>
>>> one big issue is that it's just too limited. a small subset of efl is
>>> accessible. animators i can tie to elm objects, but i can't use timers. no 
>>> jobs.
>>> i can't make basic evas rectangles, images, play with evas map, and only a
>>> subset of elm widgets are there etc. etc. - i couldn't write efbb in elev8.
>>>
>>> there's much more that also just isn't there. at least at this stage i have
>>> nothing "trivial" that can fit into what elev8 can do, as anything else i am
>>> working on is big and chunky (enlightenment, terminology), and asking 
>>> others to
>>> fit themselves into the subset of things that elev8 can do is a big ask 
>>> right
>>> now.
>>>
>>> also there is just only so much in the way of time and resources to go 
>>> around -
>>> we can't do everything. while a gui builder that can generate elev8 js has 
>>> been
>>> discussed and is something no one is against at all, it just isn't the 
>>> actual
>>> task at hand. some other day/time/in the future maybe, but if i had N people
>>> available, i'd sooner have them filling out elev8 to cover a much larger 
>>> amount
>>> of efl's api as per above before then writing a js back-end for the gui 
>>> builder
>>> as per the original subject (as it'd need a FULL widget set compliment to 
>>> work
>>> there).
>>
>> With that being said, JS output is also planned IIRC, no?
>>
>> --
>> Tom.
>>
>>
>> --
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Re: [E-devel] Egui - EFL gui builder

[Gustavo Sverzut Barbieri]

It is not about generating code, people just don't get it

--Gustavo

Sent from my iPhone

On 03/05/2013, at 05:33, Tom Hacohen  wrote:

> On 03/05/13 00:34, Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote:
>> On Thu, 2 May 2013 16:30:21 -0300 Gustavo Sverzut Barbieri
>>  said:
>> 
>> none of our "users" are programming in javascript... and almost no amount of
>> suggesting changes that. i want to see elev8 used more, but even *WE* don't 
>> use
>> it currently for anything really.
>> 
>> one big issue is that it's just too limited. a small subset of efl is
>> accessible. animators i can tie to elm objects, but i can't use timers. no 
>> jobs.
>> i can't make basic evas rectangles, images, play with evas map, and only a
>> subset of elm widgets are there etc. etc. - i couldn't write efbb in elev8.
>> 
>> there's much more that also just isn't there. at least at this stage i have
>> nothing "trivial" that can fit into what elev8 can do, as anything else i am
>> working on is big and chunky (enlightenment, terminology), and asking others 
>> to
>> fit themselves into the subset of things that elev8 can do is a big ask right
>> now.
>> 
>> also there is just only so much in the way of time and resources to go 
>> around -
>> we can't do everything. while a gui builder that can generate elev8 js has 
>> been
>> discussed and is something no one is against at all, it just isn't the actual
>> task at hand. some other day/time/in the future maybe, but if i had N people
>> available, i'd sooner have them filling out elev8 to cover a much larger 
>> amount
>> of efl's api as per above before then writing a js back-end for the gui 
>> builder
>> as per the original subject (as it'd need a FULL widget set compliment to 
>> work
>> there).
> 
> With that being said, JS output is also planned IIRC, no?
> 
> --
> Tom.
> 
> 
> --
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Re: [E-devel] Egui - EFL gui builder

[Tom Hacohen]

On 03/05/13 00:34, Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote:
> On Thu, 2 May 2013 16:30:21 -0300 Gustavo Sverzut Barbieri
>  said:
>
> none of our "users" are programming in javascript... and almost no amount of
> suggesting changes that. i want to see elev8 used more, but even *WE* don't 
> use
> it currently for anything really.
>
> one big issue is that it's just too limited. a small subset of efl is
> accessible. animators i can tie to elm objects, but i can't use timers. no 
> jobs.
> i can't make basic evas rectangles, images, play with evas map, and only a
> subset of elm widgets are there etc. etc. - i couldn't write efbb in elev8.
>
> there's much more that also just isn't there. at least at this stage i have
> nothing "trivial" that can fit into what elev8 can do, as anything else i am
> working on is big and chunky (enlightenment, terminology), and asking others 
> to
> fit themselves into the subset of things that elev8 can do is a big ask right
> now.
>
> also there is just only so much in the way of time and resources to go around 
> -
> we can't do everything. while a gui builder that can generate elev8 js has 
> been
> discussed and is something no one is against at all, it just isn't the actual
> task at hand. some other day/time/in the future maybe, but if i had N people
> available, i'd sooner have them filling out elev8 to cover a much larger 
> amount
> of efl's api as per above before then writing a js back-end for the gui 
> builder
> as per the original subject (as it'd need a FULL widget set compliment to work
> there).

With that being said, JS output is also planned IIRC, no?

--
Tom.


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Re: [E-devel] Egui - EFL gui builder

[The Rasterman]

On Thu, 2 May 2013 16:30:21 -0300 Gustavo Sverzut Barbieri
 said:

none of our "users" are programming in javascript... and almost no amount of
suggesting changes that. i want to see elev8 used more, but even *WE* don't use
it currently for anything really.

one big issue is that it's just too limited. a small subset of efl is
accessible. animators i can tie to elm objects, but i can't use timers. no jobs.
i can't make basic evas rectangles, images, play with evas map, and only a
subset of elm widgets are there etc. etc. - i couldn't write efbb in elev8.

there's much more that also just isn't there. at least at this stage i have
nothing "trivial" that can fit into what elev8 can do, as anything else i am
working on is big and chunky (enlightenment, terminology), and asking others to
fit themselves into the subset of things that elev8 can do is a big ask right
now.

also there is just only so much in the way of time and resources to go around -
we can't do everything. while a gui builder that can generate elev8 js has been
discussed and is something no one is against at all, it just isn't the actual
task at hand. some other day/time/in the future maybe, but if i had N people
available, i'd sooner have them filling out elev8 to cover a much larger amount
of efl's api as per above before then writing a js back-end for the gui builder
as per the original subject (as it'd need a FULL widget set compliment to work
there).

> Hi,
> 
> It's bit sad to see this while EasyUI is forgotten. I know this is more
> because of Eo and to generate C code, but it would be more helpful to
> stimulate the usage of a higher level language for the app developers,
> EasyUI provides you with easier to use ui elements and simplifies the
> callbacks -- the most common bugs in our apps/software comes from callback
> misusage :-/
> 
> Regards,
> -- Gustavo
> 
> 
> 
> On Thu, May 2, 2013 at 11:29 AM, Yakov Goldberg  wrote:
> 
> > Hi all,
> > I'd like to introduce one of the projects which is currently going in
> > EFL-Israel branch :)
> >
> > I've prepared some introducing description, which can be found here:
> > http://yakov-g.blogspot.co.il/2013/04/egui-efl-gui-builder.html
> >
> > I will be happy to answer any questions and listen to your thoughts
> > about it.
> >
> > Yakov
> >
> > P.S. it's Thursday today, so I'll read your comments on Sunday.
> > ...running away :)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Introducing AppDynamics Lite, a free troubleshooting tool for Java/.NET
> > Get 100% visibility into your production application - at no cost.
> > Code-level diagnostics for performance bottlenecks with <2% overhead
> > Download for free and get started troubleshooting in minutes.
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> >
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Gustavo Sverzut Barbieri
> http://profusion.mobi embedded systems
> --
> MSN: barbi...@gmail.com
> Skype: gsbarbieri
> Mobile: +55 (19) 9225-2202
> --
> Get 100% visibility into Java/.NET code with AppDynamics Lite
> It's a free troubleshooting tool designed for production
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-- 
- Codito, ergo sum - "I code, therefore I am" --
The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler)ras...@rasterman.com


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Re: [E-devel] Egui - EFL gui builder

[Gustavo Sverzut Barbieri]

Hi,

It's bit sad to see this while EasyUI is forgotten. I know this is more
because of Eo and to generate C code, but it would be more helpful to
stimulate the usage of a higher level language for the app developers,
EasyUI provides you with easier to use ui elements and simplifies the
callbacks -- the most common bugs in our apps/software comes from callback
misusage :-/

Regards,
-- Gustavo



On Thu, May 2, 2013 at 11:29 AM, Yakov Goldberg  wrote:

> Hi all,
> I'd like to introduce one of the projects which is currently going in
> EFL-Israel branch :)
>
> I've prepared some introducing description, which can be found here:
> http://yakov-g.blogspot.co.il/2013/04/egui-efl-gui-builder.html
>
> I will be happy to answer any questions and listen to your thoughts
> about it.
>
> Yakov
>
> P.S. it's Thursday today, so I'll read your comments on Sunday.
> ...running away :)
>
>
>
>
> --
> Introducing AppDynamics Lite, a free troubleshooting tool for Java/.NET
> Get 100% visibility into your production application - at no cost.
> Code-level diagnostics for performance bottlenecks with <2% overhead
> Download for free and get started troubleshooting in minutes.
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>



-- 
Gustavo Sverzut Barbieri
http://profusion.mobi embedded systems
--
MSN: barbi...@gmail.com
Skype: gsbarbieri
Mobile: +55 (19) 9225-2202
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[E-devel] Egui - EFL gui builder

[Yakov Goldberg]

Hi all,
I'd like to introduce one of the projects which is currently going in 
EFL-Israel branch :)

I've prepared some introducing description, which can be found here:
http://yakov-g.blogspot.co.il/2013/04/egui-efl-gui-builder.html

I will be happy to answer any questions and listen to your thoughts 
about it.

Yakov

P.S. it's Thursday today, so I'll read your comments on Sunday.
...running away :)



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