Re: [E-devel] Fwd: About release, snapshots and openBSD port
On Mon, 14 Nov 2011 01:30:09 -0500 Youness Alaoui said: > --- Resending from my server, it seems gmail's IP has been > blocked by sourceforge because of abuse ... > > Thanks Stefan for another well written email, I guess that > psychology minor is indeed useful :) > Thanks Mike also for some of the things you said.. I didn't > like most of it, but I did find some interesting points that > you've made, the most important one being that this > discussion should have been taken off list and I agree with > that. > > Anyways, this discussion is clearly leading nowhere at this > point, and I can see how my reactions weren't the most > adequate. I think it's time to close this chapter of the > drama, and for that (and to avoid writing another long > email), I will refrain from commenting on anything you guys > said. > Instead, I would like to simply apologize to raster in case > I ever offended you with anything I've said. This was not a > personal vendetta against you and I have nothing against > you, but I did not like our interactions in the past and I > wanted to make you aware of that. > That being said, I hope we can all move on and continue > working together towards a common goal, with no bad blood > within the community. thanks man... and ... in future.. if you think i'm talking down to you or making you feel bad.. please don't go away and "let the feeling fester". i kind of expect you to say your piece there and then. if you think i de-motivated you by saying "don't do that - it won't work" then disagree with me. either i'll spend the time convincing you of my point (and you'll come away thinking that you just saved yourself some work), or you may convince me that you are right and that you just had to make the right points. as people have said - if i still disagree, i normally issue the challenge: "prove me wrong". i'd HOPE thats a motivator if you truly believe you are right. sometimes it can't be proven - so it'll have to use convincing in other ways. if i offended you - i didn't intend to, so i'm sorry if i did. i almost never intend to offend, and when i do, it's plain as daylight that i do. i won't tiptoe around it. :) > Again sorry for my previous outbursts, and sorry if I > annoyed or offended anyone. > > Thanks, > KaKaRoTo > > > On Sun, Nov 13, 2011 at 06:31:55PM +0100, Stefan Schmidt wrote: > > Hello. > > > > [Long delay, mothers birthday, sick, etc] > > > > > > On Sat, 2011-11-12 at 21:58, Youness Alaoui wrote: > > > > > > Thank you for this well written and thought out email, I agree with you on > > > everything you said (even the bits in which you criticize me), so thanks > > > again for that. > > > > The psychology minor should be worth at least something. :) > > > > > I would just like to add a few explanations, you seem to see me as someone > > > who barks up at raster and tries to change him by forcing him into a > > > corner, and you are right to believe that because I guess that's what I > > > show somehow. However that is and was not my initial intention, so here is > > > "my story" : > > > Initially, I've had a few interactions with raster which always seemed to > > > end up with me feeling bad because of how he talks to me, I kept feeling > > > almost bullied, but I didn't give it too much attention, I was told by > > > others not to take it personal as that's just how raster is. My excitement > > > for the project was getting hit everytime I spoke to raster. I cannot > > > point out a log and say "this sentence was harsh", it was just the > > > general mood of the discussions, the way he talks to you makes you feel > > > dumb and he seems condescending, even if he's trying to be nice. And > > > while I understand the stress issues you've brought up, I did not take > > > these into consideration at the time, as all I could see was someone's > > > attitude being that of a condescending leader who takes charge, is very > > > stubborn, and doesn't accept any criticism. As a side joke, someone told > > > me that he was able to change raster's opinion "once", and it was an > > > accomplishment. So I believe he is stubborn, he sees his designs, his > > > ideas as better than everyone else's and he understands everything while > > > others cannot understand what he knows, so when you give a suggestion, he > > > turns it down in such a way that it feels "I know better, you are stupid, > > > your intellect cannot begin to grasp the infinite knowledge needed to > > > understand the issue at hand, so I will tell you what to do and you must > > > accept it".. this is not what he says, but this is what it feels when you > > > talk to him, and in the end, he looks arrogant and almost like a bully. > > > I'm not saying that's who he is, I'm just saying that's what it feels > > > like to others who talk to him (ie. me in this case). > > > This attitude made me feel bad a few times and demotivated me, thankfully, > > > I've had some excellent chats with other devs in #e.fr
Re: [E-devel] Fwd: About release, snapshots and openBSD port
--- Resending from my server, it seems gmail's IP has been blocked by sourceforge because of abuse ... Thanks Stefan for another well written email, I guess that psychology minor is indeed useful :) Thanks Mike also for some of the things you said.. I didn't like most of it, but I did find some interesting points that you've made, the most important one being that this discussion should have been taken off list and I agree with that. Anyways, this discussion is clearly leading nowhere at this point, and I can see how my reactions weren't the most adequate. I think it's time to close this chapter of the drama, and for that (and to avoid writing another long email), I will refrain from commenting on anything you guys said. Instead, I would like to simply apologize to raster in case I ever offended you with anything I've said. This was not a personal vendetta against you and I have nothing against you, but I did not like our interactions in the past and I wanted to make you aware of that. That being said, I hope we can all move on and continue working together towards a common goal, with no bad blood within the community. Again sorry for my previous outbursts, and sorry if I annoyed or offended anyone. Thanks, KaKaRoTo On Sun, Nov 13, 2011 at 06:31:55PM +0100, Stefan Schmidt wrote: > Hello. > > [Long delay, mothers birthday, sick, etc] > > > On Sat, 2011-11-12 at 21:58, Youness Alaoui wrote: > > > > Thank you for this well written and thought out email, I agree with you on > > everything you said (even the bits in which you criticize me), so thanks > > again for that. > > The psychology minor should be worth at least something. :) > > > I would just like to add a few explanations, you seem to see me as someone > > who barks up at raster and tries to change him by forcing him into a > > corner, and you are right to believe that because I guess that's what I > > show somehow. However that is and was not my initial intention, so here is > > "my story" : > > Initially, I've had a few interactions with raster which always seemed to > > end up with me feeling bad because of how he talks to me, I kept feeling > > almost bullied, but I didn't give it too much attention, I was told by > > others not to take it personal as that's just how raster is. My excitement > > for the project was getting hit everytime I spoke to raster. I cannot point > > out a log and say "this sentence was harsh", it was just the general mood > > of the discussions, the way he talks to you makes you feel dumb and he > > seems condescending, even if he's trying to be nice. And while I understand > > the stress issues you've brought up, I did not take these into > > consideration at the time, as all I could see was someone's attitude being > > that of a condescending leader who takes charge, is very stubborn, and > > doesn't accept any criticism. As a side joke, someone told me that he was > > able to change raster's opinion "once", and it was an accomplishment. So I > > believe he is stubborn, he sees his designs, his ideas as better than > > everyone else's and he understands everything while others cannot > > understand what he knows, so when you give a suggestion, he turns it down > > in such a way that it feels "I know better, you are stupid, your intellect > > cannot begin to grasp the infinite knowledge needed to understand the issue > > at hand, so I will tell you what to do and you must accept it".. this is > > not what he says, but this is what it feels when you talk to him, and in > > the end, he looks arrogant and almost like a bully. I'm not saying that's > > who he is, I'm just saying that's what it feels like to others who talk to > > him (ie. me in this case). > > This attitude made me feel bad a few times and demotivated me, thankfully, > > I've had some excellent chats with other devs in #e.fr and the community > > there is warm and welcoming and now I usually just hang there instead of > > #edevelop. > > Now I've seen many people talk the same about raster, many feel the same > > way, and many simply tell me not to talk to him, or that we shouldn't > > discuss anything with him, and I've seen a lot of 'hate', anger, > > disappointment with some of the things he does, but noone seems to just > > tell him. One thing I really hate, it's that excuse of "he is like that, so > > let him". That sentence pisses me off to no extent and I usually reply with > > "he's a pedophile, so let him rape children because that's just how he > > is?", it's an extreme counter example, and that's how I always feel when > > people have to tiptoe around someone else's defects. If someone > > is being an ass, you tell him he's an ass and he must fix > > himself, you should not have to endure him just because it's his > > personality. Everytime, the pedophile example pops to my mind, > > and I get frustrated when I see people tiptoeing around others. > > Well, the unpleasent example aside, tiptoeing around other peoples > defects
Re: [E-devel] Fwd: About release, snapshots and openBSD port
Hello. [Long delay, mothers birthday, sick, etc] On Sat, 2011-11-12 at 21:58, Youness Alaoui wrote: > > Thank you for this well written and thought out email, I agree with you on > everything you said (even the bits in which you criticize me), so thanks > again for that. The psychology minor should be worth at least something. :) > I would just like to add a few explanations, you seem to see me as someone > who barks up at raster and tries to change him by forcing him into a > corner, and you are right to believe that because I guess that's what I > show somehow. However that is and was not my initial intention, so here is > "my story" : > Initially, I've had a few interactions with raster which always seemed to > end up with me feeling bad because of how he talks to me, I kept feeling > almost bullied, but I didn't give it too much attention, I was told by > others not to take it personal as that's just how raster is. My excitement > for the project was getting hit everytime I spoke to raster. I cannot point > out a log and say "this sentence was harsh", it was just the general mood > of the discussions, the way he talks to you makes you feel dumb and he > seems condescending, even if he's trying to be nice. And while I understand > the stress issues you've brought up, I did not take these into > consideration at the time, as all I could see was someone's attitude being > that of a condescending leader who takes charge, is very stubborn, and > doesn't accept any criticism. As a side joke, someone told me that he was > able to change raster's opinion "once", and it was an accomplishment. So I > believe he is stubborn, he sees his designs, his ideas as better than > everyone else's and he understands everything while others cannot > understand what he knows, so when you give a suggestion, he turns it down > in such a way that it feels "I know better, you are stupid, your intellect > cannot begin to grasp the infinite knowledge needed to understand the issue > at hand, so I will tell you what to do and you must accept it".. this is > not what he says, but this is what it feels when you talk to him, and in > the end, he looks arrogant and almost like a bully. I'm not saying that's > who he is, I'm just saying that's what it feels like to others who talk to > him (ie. me in this case). > This attitude made me feel bad a few times and demotivated me, thankfully, > I've had some excellent chats with other devs in #e.fr and the community > there is warm and welcoming and now I usually just hang there instead of > #edevelop. > Now I've seen many people talk the same about raster, many feel the same > way, and many simply tell me not to talk to him, or that we shouldn't > discuss anything with him, and I've seen a lot of 'hate', anger, > disappointment with some of the things he does, but noone seems to just > tell him. One thing I really hate, it's that excuse of "he is like that, so > let him". That sentence pisses me off to no extent and I usually reply with > "he's a pedophile, so let him rape children because that's just how he > is?", it's an extreme counter example, and that's how I always feel when > people have to tiptoe around someone else's defects. If someone > is being an ass, you tell him he's an ass and he must fix > himself, you should not have to endure him just because it's his > personality. Everytime, the pedophile example pops to my mind, > and I get frustrated when I see people tiptoeing around others. Well, the unpleasent example aside, tiptoeing around other peoples defects is what other people actually call social skills. :) If you work with people you need to understand what they are capable of and what not. And then you need to arrange it that mostly the advantages are visible. You want change people. You may change their opinions on some aspects of a discussion and they maybe tell you that they will change (if you are the boss), but people only change from within not from the outside. Giving hints and help for the change is possible, but the change itself can not be done from the outside. > I have a lot of respect for raster, I know his skills and I'm the first to > say that he is a very talented developer. But that talent does not excuse > his behavior, if I feel offended by someone, I will tell them, I will not > keep it to myself just because I respect his programming skills. But either > way, I decided not to confront raster because it is simply not my place to > do so. But then your complain came in bursts. Held back to long and then expressed in mails he is likely to get offended by. (And you should really look for better examples, nearer to the topic and not handicapped with such problematic topics. My witch hunt term was a bad example here as well.) > Then we've had that discussion about the release, and while I was politely > trying to explain my point of view, I get increasingly pissed at raster > (and his faithful followers) ignoring some of our arguments and > con
Re: [E-devel] Fwd: About release, snapshots and openBSD port
Hello. On Sun, 2011-11-13 at 19:21, Carsten Haitzler wrote: > On Sun, 13 Nov 2011 10:11:28 +0100 Jonathan Armani said: > > > My last mail because I'm *amazed* about what this thread became. > > it's become a witch hunt on me. mostly by kakaroto. Hmm, maybe I should have avoided this term. We should stop using it now as it does not make the situation any easier. > > No they have not, stop saying that please and go look at the OpenBSD tree. > > well the patches were there in your pkging tree for bsd... you mean to say you > don't apply the patches when you make packages? seriously - i would like to > know. i know the packaging processes for deb and redhat - and patches in the > pkging "tree" are there because they are applied. unless openbsd has some > other > policy that means you have patches and only selectively apply some? Maybe a experimental tree not used for the final packaging. Having different tree for different developers is not uncommon. > > I'm disapointed. All we did was working in the dark we some people, > > now you came and did only show the bad > > stuff to the light (NO EVEN FROM ME), and I simply did not accept that > > and all the wrong things said here. > > look - i don't want to offend you - or other devs, but i struggle to see what > i > did wrong - i was asked to look at the patches by vincent. i did that. the > fact > that my comments were public in #e.fr seems to bother you a lot. maybe you and > vincent need to have a secret patch place which no one will ever show to the > public or ask for review until its ready - but i reviewed as asked by vincent. Lets try with some friendly education here. :) The last part of this does really not help to de-escalate this situation. Yeah, you get attacked here by others but if every side keeps making snide remarks it does not help at all. regards Stefan Schmidt PS Sorry for the long delays between the mails. I'm at the birthday party of my mother right now and its hard to find the time to read and think through answers of these mails. -- RSA(R) Conference 2012 Save $700 by Nov 18 Register now http://p.sf.net/sfu/rsa-sfdev2dev1 ___ enlightenment-devel mailing list enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel
Re: [E-devel] Fwd: About release, snapshots and openBSD port
Hello. On Sun, 2011-11-13 at 10:11, Jonathan Armani wrote: > > I never said I was insulted by Raster, I said I'm bored because I got > comment on code I did not even write / > asked for a review, You did not ask, but Vincent did. No doubt in a positive manner to get you guys some feedback on parts he feels raster has more experience with. This part really sounds like a classic miscommunication to me. Vincent wanted to help and pointed raster to the repo with the patches. Perhaps not knowing that they also include some of your experimental stuff which was not ready yet. Raster looked there and found the API break, something that would need more explanation why its needed we all agree I think, and pointed out that this is bad. Same for the mempool changes which could be changed in one place. He put it blunt and you took it personal even if you did not write the patches. The classics of small combinations of misunderstanding resulting in something bigger then every single part would be able to. > I was pissed because there was a lot of work > already done and the mail raster wrote > here was absolutly not representative of it. This looks more like the core problem to me here. You took offense when raster was saying that he never has seen stuff from you or the other openbsd guys before. Which makes your previous work and spent time looking wasted. So I took a moment to look through the svn log to identify the patches that you may referring to. What I found are a lot patches commited by Vincent mentioning the OpenBSD team. Why not all have been attributed to you it looks like the team did a lot groundwork already. Something raster would have been able to see if he had read the svn log carefully (Vincent has many other commits as well). If the own work seems to get ignored and played down by someone else it hurts and feels un-respectful. To de-escalate something like this it often helps to point out to the specific work you and your team have already been. Sure, raster should have had a look on its own, too. > Please read my first mail again, I will not talk out of my ass, I > didn't even know Raster personally, the problem > here was mainly the tone. Well, tone is something that is tightly combined with behaviour and hard to change (see my other mail). Obviously it is possible to write a nicer mail when you want to do it, but normally writing a mail is a self expression in text form (a medium pretty hard for side effects of communication like gestic, facial expression and other things) and this self expression is part of the behaviour. Over the years I did learn to take people how they are, not getting offended easily and find my way working with them. Still everybody should work on their own skills to work better with other people, including raster, but its hard. > I'm disapointed. All we did was working in the dark we some people, > now you came and did only show the bad > stuff to the light (NO EVEN FROM ME), and I simply did not accept that > and all the wrong things said here. For the technical part Mike already offered you to handle further patches if you or someone else in your team is still motivated to do so. And I think Vincent is also available for help if someone asks him. He always is. :) regards Stefan Schmidt -- RSA(R) Conference 2012 Save $700 by Nov 18 Register now http://p.sf.net/sfu/rsa-sfdev2dev1 ___ enlightenment-devel mailing list enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel
Re: [E-devel] Fwd: About release, snapshots and openBSD port
On Sun, 13 Nov 2011 10:11:28 +0100 Jonathan Armani said: > My last mail because I'm *amazed* about what this thread became. it's become a witch hunt on me. mostly by kakaroto. > I never said I was insulted by Raster, I said I'm bored because I got > comment on code I did not even write / > asked for a review, I was pissed because there was a lot of work > already done and the mail raster wrote > here was absolutly not representative of it. i'm sorry about that - but could you have at least been civil and said "vtorri has been putting in some of our patches" and pointed me to them? as they were not mailed to this list for review - i didn't see them. if i had, i would have marked them for review. i don't read every commit and every line of them in gory detail. there's too much volume. so please, don't get upset that i didn't see them. you've been submitting them through the french connection, and i'm not going to review everything a long time developer like vtorri does because i trust his work. you should have been happy that there is willingness to help openbsd on my part - even though i don't use it. > Please read my first mail again, I will not talk out of my ass, I > didn't even know Raster personally, the problem > here was mainly the tone. > > There were a lot a background work, now you are only taking some > experimantal patches and keep saying > "LOOK HOW THAT WAS BAD". that's the part that makes you sound offended. if it didn't bother/offend you - why would you care that i said "look how that was bad"? > > armani has a very > > thin skin and simply got pissed off at someone saying the patches (which > > many he didn't even write, but he took offence anyway) were bad. > > Did I said I was insulted in my previous mail ? on IRC ? Did your read > what I said ? "So you come from nowhere and make all this work looking bad, here and on irc, that's amazing." <- that line says it. > > the breaking of api. that means current openbsd packages have > > broken api's. > > No they have not, stop saying that please and go look at the OpenBSD tree. well the patches were there in your pkging tree for bsd... you mean to say you don't apply the patches when you make packages? seriously - i would like to know. i know the packaging processes for deb and redhat - and patches in the pkging "tree" are there because they are applied. unless openbsd has some other policy that means you have patches and only selectively apply some? > > that's what armani, and kakaroto are saying i did. i DIDNT.; read the logs. > > i'm not apologizing for what i didn't do. > > Where did I say that ? > > I'm disapointed. All we did was working in the dark we some people, > now you came and did only show the bad > stuff to the light (NO EVEN FROM ME), and I simply did not accept that > and all the wrong things said here. look - i don't want to offend you - or other devs, but i struggle to see what i did wrong - i was asked to look at the patches by vincent. i did that. the fact that my comments were public in #e.fr seems to bother you a lot. maybe you and vincent need to have a secret patch place which no one will ever show to the public or ask for review until its ready - but i reviewed as asked by vincent. > That only engage me. > > > > > > On Sun, Nov 13, 2011 at 5:47 AM, Carsten Haitzler > wrote: > > On Sun, 13 Nov 2011 02:26:00 +0100 Stefan Schmidt > > said: > > > >> Hello. > >> > >> I have not joined any of these flame wares before as I don't think to > >> change anything significant but only start to hurt peoples feelings > >> for each other. But I had to join here as it started to look like a > >> witch hunt on raster here. Please take a moment when reading this. > >> Thanks for your time. > >> > >> On Sat, 2011-11-12 at 13:43, Youness Alaoui wrote: > >> > > >> > you don't seem to read what I wrote, you ignore the facts.. the facts are > >> > not the commits or how bad they were, the facts were your attitude and > >> > condescending bullshit. but yeah,you don't seem to be able to acknowledge > >> > that, since you're perfect and everyone else is wrong. > >> > >> Great, personal insults are getting us really forward here. This is > >> one of the social skills you are calling here for. Discussing with > >> others without getting into personal insults. Given this mail and the > >> long rant where you "behaved like a dick" (citation from you) are > >> letting me wonder if you are able to call others for things you do not > >> handle very well on your own. Something to thing about. > >> > >> > Thank you Vincent and Gustavo for sharing your concerns about this, and > >> > it's too sad that the new contributor has become another victim of > >> > raster's poor social skills. That's what I wanted to avoid, that's what > >> > I wanted raster to understand, and I was hoping for him to reply with > >> > something like "sorry if I offended you, that wasn't my purpose" and > >> > that's it, the guy stays with us, but I guess r
Re: [E-devel] Fwd: About release, snapshots and openBSD port
On Sun, 13 Nov 2011 10:11:28 +0100 Jonathan Armani wrote: > My last mail because I'm *amazed* about what this thread became. > > > I never said I was insulted by Raster, I said I'm bored because I got > comment on code I did not even write / > asked for a review, I was pissed because there was a lot of work > already done and the mail raster wrote > here was absolutly not representative of it. > > Please read my first mail again, I will not talk out of my ass, I > didn't even know Raster personally, the problem > here was mainly the tone. > > There were a lot a background work, now you are only taking some > experimantal patches and keep saying > "LOOK HOW THAT WAS BAD". > > > armani has a very > > thin skin and simply got pissed off at someone saying the patches (which > > many he didn't even write, but he took offence anyway) were bad. > > Did I said I was insulted in my previous mail ? on IRC ? Did your read > what I said ? > > > the breaking of api. that means current openbsd packages have > > broken api's. > > No they have not, stop saying that please and go look at the OpenBSD tree. > > > that's what armani, and kakaroto are saying i did. i DIDNT.; read the logs. > > i'm not apologizing for what i didn't do. > > Where did I say that ? > > I'm disapointed. All we did was working in the dark we some people, > now you came and did only show the bad > stuff to the light (NO EVEN FROM ME), and I simply did not accept that > and all the wrong things said here. > > That only engage me. > > > > > > On Sun, Nov 13, 2011 at 5:47 AM, Carsten Haitzler > wrote: > > On Sun, 13 Nov 2011 02:26:00 +0100 Stefan Schmidt > > said: > > > >> Hello. > >> > >> I have not joined any of these flame wares before as I don't think to > >> change anything significant but only start to hurt peoples feelings > >> for each other. But I had to join here as it started to look like a > >> witch hunt on raster here. Please take a moment when reading this. > >> Thanks for your time. > >> > >> On Sat, 2011-11-12 at 13:43, Youness Alaoui wrote: > >> > > >> > you don't seem to read what I wrote, you ignore the facts.. the facts are > >> > not the commits or how bad they were, the facts were your attitude and > >> > condescending bullshit. but yeah,you don't seem to be able to acknowledge > >> > that, since you're perfect and everyone else is wrong. > >> > >> Great, personal insults are getting us really forward here. This is > >> one of the social skills you are calling here for. Discussing with > >> others without getting into personal insults. Given this mail and the > >> long rant where you "behaved like a dick" (citation from you) are > >> letting me wonder if you are able to call others for things you do not > >> handle very well on your own. Something to thing about. > >> > >> > Thank you Vincent and Gustavo for sharing your concerns about this, and > >> > it's too sad that the new contributor has become another victim of > >> > raster's poor social skills. That's what I wanted to avoid, that's what > >> > I wanted raster to understand, and I was hoping for him to reply with > >> > something like "sorry if I offended you, that wasn't my purpose" and > >> > that's it, the guy stays with us, but I guess raster has too much pride > >> > and is too self-centered to recognize his own faults. > >> > >> And you wanted that to happen by forcing him into a corner? > >> > >> That is almost always the best recipe to get the opposite of what you > >> wanted. Forcing people trigger over reactions from them. Self > >> protection, naturally for humans. Changing the behaviour of people is > >> a long and exhausting process. Nothing you can do by sending of > >> several mails. And before people even accept what they here from > >> others they need to respect them. Respect them for their doings and > >> ideas they have come up with over time. Again nothing you can achieve > >> in some weeks. > >> > >> > I think I will follow Vincent's advice and not reply to this thread > >> > anymore, raster clearly showed he has no comprehension of what people are > >> > trying to tell him here, so this is just an endless drama with no > >> > possible resolution. > >> > >> Black and white thinking all around. Sadly we live in a grey world. > >> Nothing is only black or only white. Lets have a look at what problems > >> we have here and what possible solutions we can come up with. (That > >> what we should aim for in the end, a solution bringing the project > >> forward). > >> > >> Raster is stressed out. Short on time and running at the edge of what > >> is possible for him all the time. Thats a fact and on of the biggest > >> problems here. Stress calls out on people making hard decisions and > >> one of this is being brusque to others. I have observed this a lot at > >> myself when being in stressful times. Family and friends had the > >> pleasure to get me in such a mood. And even after I recognized this > >> at myself (the first step, you kn
Re: [E-devel] Fwd: About release, snapshots and openBSD port
On Sat, 12 Nov 2011 21:58:12 -0500 Youness Alaoui wrote: > Hi Stefan, > > Thank you for this well written and thought out email, I agree with you on > everything you said (even the bits in which you criticize me), so thanks > again for that. > I would just like to add a few explanations, you seem to see me as someone > who barks up at raster and tries to change him by forcing him into a > corner, and you are right to believe that because I guess that's what I > show somehow. However that is and was not my initial intention, so here is > "my story" : > Initially, I've had a few interactions with raster which always seemed to > end up with me feeling bad because of how he talks to me, I kept feeling > almost bullied, but I didn't give it too much attention, I was told by > others not to take it personal as that's just how raster is. My excitement > for the project was getting hit everytime I spoke to raster. I cannot point > out a log and say "this sentence was harsh", it was just the general mood > of the discussions, the way he talks to you makes you feel dumb and he > seems condescending, even if he's trying to be nice. And while I understand > the stress issues you've brought up, I did not take these into > consideration at the time, as all I could see was someone's attitude being > that of a condescending leader who takes charge, is very stubborn, and > doesn't accept any criticism. As a side joke, someone told me that he was > able to change raster's opinion "once", and it was an accomplishment. So I > believe he is stubborn, he sees his designs, his ideas as better than > everyone else's and he understands everything while others cannot > understand what he knows, so when you give a suggestion, he turns it down > in such a way that it feels "I know better, you are stupid, your intellect > cannot begin to grasp the infinite knowledge needed to understand the issue > at hand, so I will tell you what to do and you must accept it".. this is > not what he says, but this is what it feels when you talk to him, and in > the end, he looks arrogant and almost like a bully. I'm not saying that's > who he is, I'm just saying that's what it feels like to others who talk to > him (ie. me in this case). You should probably keep in mind that you're talking about someone who epitomizes the word "specialist" in the field that he works/plays in. If he seems condescending, it's possible that you may be misinterpreting his points based on the lack of emotion expressed through text. If not, then it's probably something which he has seen fail previously and tried to dissuade you from doing. It's a running joke that "Rule #1 of #edevelop: raster is always right," but this is actually the case the VAST majority of the time and experience plays a huge part here. On a personal level, I've never felt insulted by raster's attitude. Considering that he is the project leader for a massive amount of code, a group of transient developers who have close to zero organizational skills (we release HOW often?), and tons of stuff for his paid job aside from this, I'm seriously surprised that he isn't even more surly than he is. I get annoyed and crochety when someone asks one stupid question, but he's happy to talk in #e for hours to users who obviously haven't got a clue and don't know what google is. > This attitude made me feel bad a few times and demotivated me, thankfully, > I've had some excellent chats with other devs in #e.fr and the community > there is warm and welcoming and now I usually just hang there instead of > #edevelop. This is the internet. People are naturally more extreme here since they never have to deal with the face to face interaction which goes along with offline conversations. As a result, people are more direct and to the point; I know I am. I don't want to sound like a total dick (though those who know me well know that this is a preface to me sounding like a total dick), but harden the fuck up. It's not like he's calling you mentally retarded and insulting your mother, he's probably just telling you that one of your ideas won't work. Either prove him wrong or accept that he's right. > Now I've seen many people talk the same about raster, many feel the same > way, and many simply tell me not to talk to him, or that we shouldn't > discuss anything with him, and I've seen a lot of 'hate', anger, > disappointment with some of the things he does, but noone seems to just > tell him. One thing I really hate, it's that excuse of "he is like that, so > let him". That sentence pisses me off to no extent and I usually reply with > "he's a pedophile, so let him rape children because that's just how he > is?", it's an extreme counter example, and that's how I always feel when Wow. Let me pause this while I call you Hitler for no reason, even though I acknowledge it to be unfair and irrelevant. Resuming... > people have to tiptoe around someone else's defects. If someone is being an > ass, you tell him he's an ass and h
Re: [E-devel] Fwd: About release, snapshots and openBSD port
My last mail because I'm *amazed* about what this thread became. I never said I was insulted by Raster, I said I'm bored because I got comment on code I did not even write / asked for a review, I was pissed because there was a lot of work already done and the mail raster wrote here was absolutly not representative of it. Please read my first mail again, I will not talk out of my ass, I didn't even know Raster personally, the problem here was mainly the tone. There were a lot a background work, now you are only taking some experimantal patches and keep saying "LOOK HOW THAT WAS BAD". > armani has a very > thin skin and simply got pissed off at someone saying the patches (which many > he didn't even write, but he took offence anyway) were bad. Did I said I was insulted in my previous mail ? on IRC ? Did your read what I said ? > the breaking of api. that means current openbsd packages have > broken api's. No they have not, stop saying that please and go look at the OpenBSD tree. > that's what armani, and kakaroto are saying i did. i DIDNT.; read the logs. > i'm > not apologizing for what i didn't do. Where did I say that ? I'm disapointed. All we did was working in the dark we some people, now you came and did only show the bad stuff to the light (NO EVEN FROM ME), and I simply did not accept that and all the wrong things said here. That only engage me. On Sun, Nov 13, 2011 at 5:47 AM, Carsten Haitzler wrote: > On Sun, 13 Nov 2011 02:26:00 +0100 Stefan Schmidt > said: > >> Hello. >> >> I have not joined any of these flame wares before as I don't think to >> change anything significant but only start to hurt peoples feelings >> for each other. But I had to join here as it started to look like a >> witch hunt on raster here. Please take a moment when reading this. >> Thanks for your time. >> >> On Sat, 2011-11-12 at 13:43, Youness Alaoui wrote: >> > >> > you don't seem to read what I wrote, you ignore the facts.. the facts are >> > not the commits or how bad they were, the facts were your attitude and >> > condescending bullshit. but yeah,you don't seem to be able to acknowledge >> > that, since you're perfect and everyone else is wrong. >> >> Great, personal insults are getting us really forward here. This is >> one of the social skills you are calling here for. Discussing with >> others without getting into personal insults. Given this mail and the >> long rant where you "behaved like a dick" (citation from you) are >> letting me wonder if you are able to call others for things you do not >> handle very well on your own. Something to thing about. >> >> > Thank you Vincent and Gustavo for sharing your concerns about this, and >> > it's too sad that the new contributor has become another victim of raster's >> > poor social skills. That's what I wanted to avoid, that's what I wanted >> > raster to understand, and I was hoping for him to reply with something like >> > "sorry if I offended you, that wasn't my purpose" and that's it, the guy >> > stays with us, but I guess raster has too much pride and is too >> > self-centered to recognize his own faults. >> >> And you wanted that to happen by forcing him into a corner? >> >> That is almost always the best recipe to get the opposite of what you >> wanted. Forcing people trigger over reactions from them. Self >> protection, naturally for humans. Changing the behaviour of people is >> a long and exhausting process. Nothing you can do by sending of >> several mails. And before people even accept what they here from >> others they need to respect them. Respect them for their doings and >> ideas they have come up with over time. Again nothing you can achieve >> in some weeks. >> >> > I think I will follow Vincent's advice and not reply to this thread >> > anymore, raster clearly showed he has no comprehension of what people are >> > trying to tell him here, so this is just an endless drama with no possible >> > resolution. >> >> Black and white thinking all around. Sadly we live in a grey world. >> Nothing is only black or only white. Lets have a look at what problems >> we have here and what possible solutions we can come up with. (That >> what we should aim for in the end, a solution bringing the project >> forward). >> >> Raster is stressed out. Short on time and running at the edge of what >> is possible for him all the time. Thats a fact and on of the biggest >> problems here. Stress calls out on people making hard decisions and >> one of this is being brusque to others. I have observed this a lot at >> myself when being in stressful times. Family and friends had the >> pleasure to get me in such a mood. And even after I recognized this >> at myself (the first step, you know), it is very hard to change at >> all. Again, behaviour changes are the hardest. >> >> The work part of raster stress we can't influence much. He has to >> handle this on its own. And I personally hope that he realizes how >> near he comes a actual burnout if he keeps goi
Re: [E-devel] Fwd: About release, snapshots and openBSD port
On Sun, 13 Nov 2011 02:26:00 +0100 Stefan Schmidt said: > Hello. > > I have not joined any of these flame wares before as I don't think to > change anything significant but only start to hurt peoples feelings > for each other. But I had to join here as it started to look like a > witch hunt on raster here. Please take a moment when reading this. > Thanks for your time. > > On Sat, 2011-11-12 at 13:43, Youness Alaoui wrote: > > > > you don't seem to read what I wrote, you ignore the facts.. the facts are > > not the commits or how bad they were, the facts were your attitude and > > condescending bullshit. but yeah,you don't seem to be able to acknowledge > > that, since you're perfect and everyone else is wrong. > > Great, personal insults are getting us really forward here. This is > one of the social skills you are calling here for. Discussing with > others without getting into personal insults. Given this mail and the > long rant where you "behaved like a dick" (citation from you) are > letting me wonder if you are able to call others for things you do not > handle very well on your own. Something to thing about. > > > Thank you Vincent and Gustavo for sharing your concerns about this, and > > it's too sad that the new contributor has become another victim of raster's > > poor social skills. That's what I wanted to avoid, that's what I wanted > > raster to understand, and I was hoping for him to reply with something like > > "sorry if I offended you, that wasn't my purpose" and that's it, the guy > > stays with us, but I guess raster has too much pride and is too > > self-centered to recognize his own faults. > > And you wanted that to happen by forcing him into a corner? > > That is almost always the best recipe to get the opposite of what you > wanted. Forcing people trigger over reactions from them. Self > protection, naturally for humans. Changing the behaviour of people is > a long and exhausting process. Nothing you can do by sending of > several mails. And before people even accept what they here from > others they need to respect them. Respect them for their doings and > ideas they have come up with over time. Again nothing you can achieve > in some weeks. > > > I think I will follow Vincent's advice and not reply to this thread > > anymore, raster clearly showed he has no comprehension of what people are > > trying to tell him here, so this is just an endless drama with no possible > > resolution. > > Black and white thinking all around. Sadly we live in a grey world. > Nothing is only black or only white. Lets have a look at what problems > we have here and what possible solutions we can come up with. (That > what we should aim for in the end, a solution bringing the project > forward). > > Raster is stressed out. Short on time and running at the edge of what > is possible for him all the time. Thats a fact and on of the biggest > problems here. Stress calls out on people making hard decisions and > one of this is being brusque to others. I have observed this a lot at > myself when being in stressful times. Family and friends had the > pleasure to get me in such a mood. And even after I recognized this > at myself (the first step, you know), it is very hard to change at > all. Again, behaviour changes are the hardest. > > The work part of raster stress we can't influence much. He has to > handle this on its own. And I personally hope that he realizes how > near he comes a actual burnout if he keeps going like this for more > months. > > But now to the things we can change. You and Gustavo are trying to > change this project in a direction that should be more welcoming for > developers and users. Making the community grow. I welcome this move, > but doing something like this can not happen by bringing everything > down that happened so far. Raster brought this all to the point what > we have today. Motivating people on the road and de-motivating people > on the road. Again, very natural as we don't live in flower-power > land. :) > > So to change to bring in change to this community you need to earn the > respect of the other developers here before steering the way forward. > Bluntly speaking nobody wants to accept orders from people he does not > respect or being paid by. And even the last part may be very hard > sometimes. ;) > > For the matters at hand the following could be done: > > o Tarballs: Everyone seem to speak about daily tarballs. What I read > from the openbsd guys have not been daily tarballs but tarballs for > an alpha or rc to check if everything is fine beofre the actual > release. Such tarballs are fine and have already been acknowledged > and done before. They will even get some QA. And QA is something > that differs from daily tarballs, like your script or a simple make > disctheck, will produce. SOLUTION: Wait for the alpha and rc > tarballs. yup. exactly my point. :) > o OpenBSD patches: Vincent asked raster to have a look at the patches. >
Re: [E-devel] Fwd: About release, snapshots and openBSD port
On Sat, 12 Nov 2011 13:43:06 -0500 Youness Alaoui said: 1. you provided a script to do something that wasn't asked for - the request was not to give them a script. it was for us to do it - and you still haven't acknowledged that that is no better than what they have now, so what is the point? 2. i'm not apologizing for something i didn't actually do. as you didn't read the facts and refuse to, your "condescending bullshit" line is in itself condescending bullshit - you pretend to know what happened when you won't even look. > On Fri, Nov 11, 2011 at 10:26 PM, Carsten Haitzler > wrote: > > > On Fri, 11 Nov 2011 21:49:46 -0500 Youness Alaoui > > said: > > > > WE were asked to generate the tarballs. WE... not him. if he wants > > tarballs he > > can make them himself. i would never have said no. i can't and won't stop > > him - > > he can make the tarballs all he likes! but WE were asked to make them. that > > means one of us - presumably me, has to generate them UPLOAD them and then > > TELL > > SOMEONE they are uploaded and exist! if HE wants tarballs and wants to > > build > > them himself.. absolutely. go ahead! by all means! he can also just use > > make > > dist which is simpler. but that isn't what was asked for. > > > > 1 - read what I wrote, I said that for now he used the script, until the > script gets put on a server on which I don't have access > 2 - why "presumably me" ? > > > > > > > I haven't proven your point, I don't see where I did. On the contrary, I > > > proved that you can create a simple script that does it. Who asked for > > any > > > announcements? who even asked for uploads? The guy used my script to > > > generate the tarballs from svn on his own machine and then used the > > > tarballs in his build system and was happy about it. Ideally, the script > > > should run on a server in a cron job and copy the files to a publically > > > available directory, I'm not uploading the files because I don't have > > > access to such server. But that is outside the scope of what was asked, I > > > helped him get what he wanted, he's happy about it, he'll continue > > porting > > > to BSD or whatever he wants to do with it. In the end, we didn't lose a > > > contributor, and that's the final goal that was reached (who btw said > > that > > > he got demotivated after talking to you because of the way you spoke). > > > Of course, it's less useful than a make distcheck, that's why an actual > > > build system would be needed for continuous integration checks, but that > > is > > > besides the point. They wanted a tarball, I provided a tarball, nothing > > > more, nothing less. > > > Stop assuming what the other person wants, and then make judgment calls > > on > > > what you think they may or may not want. That's not how you can build > > your > > > community, by closing all doors in the face of everyone who wants to > > help. > > > > dude... did you READ AT ALL WHAT VTORRI ASKED FOR? my god! you really want > > to > > just run around with your opinions without ever reading the facts. they > > asked > > to HAVE daily snapshots. they aren't asking how THEY can do it themselves. > > they > > are asking for them to BE done for them. you OFFERED an alternative. > > > > man - YOU demotivate ME. your snide comments, grandstanding on your soapbox > > without ever bothering to READ the discussion or facts at hand - which you > > very > > clearly didn't bother to read, or your understanding of english is not so > > great. when someone asks to have snapshots - they ask for tarballs, which > > need > > to be generated and uploaded. we can generate them on the server, but a > > cron > > job is no better than a random svn checkout done by them. if you READ the > > emails and READ the irc discussion you might have the facts. > > > > on email i asked what's so hard about svn. on irc i got the response that > > they > > have no idea when to svn checkout because they don't know if it works or > > not. > > put that together with a cron job either done by them OR us is the same > > thing. > > nothing has improved. > > > > pointless email as you're simply not reading the actual content. > > > you don't seem to read what I wrote, you ignore the facts.. the facts are > not the commits or how bad they were, the facts were your attitude and > condescending bullshit. but yeah,you don't seem to be able to acknowledge > that, since you're perfect and everyone else is wrong. > > Thank you Vincent and Gustavo for sharing your concerns about this, and > it's too sad that the new contributor has become another victim of raster's > poor social skills. That's what I wanted to avoid, that's what I wanted > raster to understand, and I was hoping for him to reply with something like > "sorry if I offended you, that wasn't my purpose" and that's it, the guy > stays with us, but I guess raster has too much pride and is too > self-centered to recognize his own faults. > I think I will follow Vincent's advice and not reply to t
Re: [E-devel] Fwd: About release, snapshots and openBSD port
Hi Stefan, Thank you for this well written and thought out email, I agree with you on everything you said (even the bits in which you criticize me), so thanks again for that. I would just like to add a few explanations, you seem to see me as someone who barks up at raster and tries to change him by forcing him into a corner, and you are right to believe that because I guess that's what I show somehow. However that is and was not my initial intention, so here is "my story" : Initially, I've had a few interactions with raster which always seemed to end up with me feeling bad because of how he talks to me, I kept feeling almost bullied, but I didn't give it too much attention, I was told by others not to take it personal as that's just how raster is. My excitement for the project was getting hit everytime I spoke to raster. I cannot point out a log and say "this sentence was harsh", it was just the general mood of the discussions, the way he talks to you makes you feel dumb and he seems condescending, even if he's trying to be nice. And while I understand the stress issues you've brought up, I did not take these into consideration at the time, as all I could see was someone's attitude being that of a condescending leader who takes charge, is very stubborn, and doesn't accept any criticism. As a side joke, someone told me that he was able to change raster's opinion "once", and it was an accomplishment. So I believe he is stubborn, he sees his designs, his ideas as better than everyone else's and he understands everything while others cannot understand what he knows, so when you give a suggestion, he turns it down in such a way that it feels "I know better, you are stupid, your intellect cannot begin to grasp the infinite knowledge needed to understand the issue at hand, so I will tell you what to do and you must accept it".. this is not what he says, but this is what it feels when you talk to him, and in the end, he looks arrogant and almost like a bully. I'm not saying that's who he is, I'm just saying that's what it feels like to others who talk to him (ie. me in this case). This attitude made me feel bad a few times and demotivated me, thankfully, I've had some excellent chats with other devs in #e.fr and the community there is warm and welcoming and now I usually just hang there instead of #edevelop. Now I've seen many people talk the same about raster, many feel the same way, and many simply tell me not to talk to him, or that we shouldn't discuss anything with him, and I've seen a lot of 'hate', anger, disappointment with some of the things he does, but noone seems to just tell him. One thing I really hate, it's that excuse of "he is like that, so let him". That sentence pisses me off to no extent and I usually reply with "he's a pedophile, so let him rape children because that's just how he is?", it's an extreme counter example, and that's how I always feel when people have to tiptoe around someone else's defects. If someone is being an ass, you tell him he's an ass and he must fix himself, you should not have to endure him just because it's his personality. Everytime, the pedophile example pops to my mind, and I get frustrated when I see people tiptoeing around others. I have a lot of respect for raster, I know his skills and I'm the first to say that he is a very talented developer. But that talent does not excuse his behavior, if I feel offended by someone, I will tell them, I will not keep it to myself just because I respect his programming skills. But either way, I decided not to confront raster because it is simply not my place to do so. Then we've had that discussion about the release, and while I was politely trying to explain my point of view, I get increasingly pissed at raster (and his faithful followers) ignoring some of our arguments and concentrating on the simple "I do not like/want this" but what ticked me off is when raster, the master of being rude, tells me that I'm the one being rude because I give my opinion, and he has the audacity of basically saying my opinion means nothing because I'm not a major contributor (== I'm not him). I am usually nice and polite, but when someone pisses me off and I reach a certain threshold (which I admit, is often quite low), I explode, at which point, there is no limits to what I can say. So when raster yelled at me and said that I'm rude, I did not accept that so I decided to let him know what I think of him exactly. He ignored pretty much everything I said though. In this specific thread, I did not start the drama (I don't believe I did), one of the new contributors says he is also pissed at raster for the way he spoke to him, and I replied to raster basically telling him "hint, hint, read back what I wrote in anger last time, because you ignored it, but now maybe you'll realize there was truth in it", at which point he finally decides to snap at me and start yelling and taking it personal (which he refrained from doing in the initial outburst ema
Re: [E-devel] Fwd: About release, snapshots and openBSD port
On Sun, 13 Nov 2011 02:26:00 +0100 Stefan Schmidt wrote: > Hello. > > I have not joined any of these flame wares before as I don't think to > change anything significant but only start to hurt peoples feelings > for each other. But I had to join here as it started to look like a > witch hunt on raster here. Please take a moment when reading this. > Thanks for your time. > > On Sat, 2011-11-12 at 13:43, Youness Alaoui wrote: > > > > you don't seem to read what I wrote, you ignore the facts.. the facts are > > not the commits or how bad they were, the facts were your attitude and > > condescending bullshit. but yeah,you don't seem to be able to acknowledge > > that, since you're perfect and everyone else is wrong. > > Great, personal insults are getting us really forward here. This is > one of the social skills you are calling here for. Discussing with > others without getting into personal insults. Given this mail and the > long rant where you "behaved like a dick" (citation from you) are > letting me wonder if you are able to call others for things you do not > handle very well on your own. Something to thing about. > > > Thank you Vincent and Gustavo for sharing your concerns about this, and > > it's too sad that the new contributor has become another victim of raster's > > poor social skills. That's what I wanted to avoid, that's what I wanted > > raster to understand, and I was hoping for him to reply with something like > > "sorry if I offended you, that wasn't my purpose" and that's it, the guy > > stays with us, but I guess raster has too much pride and is too > > self-centered to recognize his own faults. > > And you wanted that to happen by forcing him into a corner? > > That is almost always the best recipe to get the opposite of what you > wanted. Forcing people trigger over reactions from them. Self > protection, naturally for humans. Changing the behaviour of people is > a long and exhausting process. Nothing you can do by sending of > several mails. And before people even accept what they here from > others they need to respect them. Respect them for their doings and > ideas they have come up with over time. Again nothing you can achieve > in some weeks. > > > I think I will follow Vincent's advice and not reply to this thread > > anymore, raster clearly showed he has no comprehension of what people are > > trying to tell him here, so this is just an endless drama with no possible > > resolution. > > Black and white thinking all around. Sadly we live in a grey world. > Nothing is only black or only white. Lets have a look at what problems > we have here and what possible solutions we can come up with. (That > what we should aim for in the end, a solution bringing the project > forward). > > Raster is stressed out. Short on time and running at the edge of what > is possible for him all the time. Thats a fact and on of the biggest > problems here. Stress calls out on people making hard decisions and > one of this is being brusque to others. I have observed this a lot at > myself when being in stressful times. Family and friends had the > pleasure to get me in such a mood. And even after I recognized this > at myself (the first step, you know), it is very hard to change at > all. Again, behaviour changes are the hardest. > > The work part of raster stress we can't influence much. He has to > handle this on its own. And I personally hope that he realizes how > near he comes a actual burnout if he keeps going like this for more > months. > > But now to the things we can change. You and Gustavo are trying to > change this project in a direction that should be more welcoming for > developers and users. Making the community grow. I welcome this move, > but doing something like this can not happen by bringing everything > down that happened so far. Raster brought this all to the point what > we have today. Motivating people on the road and de-motivating people > on the road. Again, very natural as we don't live in flower-power > land. :) > > So to change to bring in change to this community you need to earn the > respect of the other developers here before steering the way forward. > Bluntly speaking nobody wants to accept orders from people he does not > respect or being paid by. And even the last part may be very hard > sometimes. ;) > > For the matters at hand the following could be done: > > o Tarballs: Everyone seem to speak about daily tarballs. What I read > from the openbsd guys have not been daily tarballs but tarballs for > an alpha or rc to check if everything is fine beofre the actual > release. Such tarballs are fine and have already been acknowledged > and done before. They will even get some QA. And QA is something > that differs from daily tarballs, like your script or a simple make > disctheck, will produce. SOLUTION: Wait for the alpha and rc > tarballs. > > o OpenBSD patches: Vincent asked raster to have a look at the patches. > He did look and point
Re: [E-devel] Fwd: About release, snapshots and openBSD port
Hello. I have not joined any of these flame wares before as I don't think to change anything significant but only start to hurt peoples feelings for each other. But I had to join here as it started to look like a witch hunt on raster here. Please take a moment when reading this. Thanks for your time. On Sat, 2011-11-12 at 13:43, Youness Alaoui wrote: > > you don't seem to read what I wrote, you ignore the facts.. the facts are > not the commits or how bad they were, the facts were your attitude and > condescending bullshit. but yeah,you don't seem to be able to acknowledge > that, since you're perfect and everyone else is wrong. Great, personal insults are getting us really forward here. This is one of the social skills you are calling here for. Discussing with others without getting into personal insults. Given this mail and the long rant where you "behaved like a dick" (citation from you) are letting me wonder if you are able to call others for things you do not handle very well on your own. Something to thing about. > Thank you Vincent and Gustavo for sharing your concerns about this, and > it's too sad that the new contributor has become another victim of raster's > poor social skills. That's what I wanted to avoid, that's what I wanted > raster to understand, and I was hoping for him to reply with something like > "sorry if I offended you, that wasn't my purpose" and that's it, the guy > stays with us, but I guess raster has too much pride and is too > self-centered to recognize his own faults. And you wanted that to happen by forcing him into a corner? That is almost always the best recipe to get the opposite of what you wanted. Forcing people trigger over reactions from them. Self protection, naturally for humans. Changing the behaviour of people is a long and exhausting process. Nothing you can do by sending of several mails. And before people even accept what they here from others they need to respect them. Respect them for their doings and ideas they have come up with over time. Again nothing you can achieve in some weeks. > I think I will follow Vincent's advice and not reply to this thread > anymore, raster clearly showed he has no comprehension of what people are > trying to tell him here, so this is just an endless drama with no possible > resolution. Black and white thinking all around. Sadly we live in a grey world. Nothing is only black or only white. Lets have a look at what problems we have here and what possible solutions we can come up with. (That what we should aim for in the end, a solution bringing the project forward). Raster is stressed out. Short on time and running at the edge of what is possible for him all the time. Thats a fact and on of the biggest problems here. Stress calls out on people making hard decisions and one of this is being brusque to others. I have observed this a lot at myself when being in stressful times. Family and friends had the pleasure to get me in such a mood. And even after I recognized this at myself (the first step, you know), it is very hard to change at all. Again, behaviour changes are the hardest. The work part of raster stress we can't influence much. He has to handle this on its own. And I personally hope that he realizes how near he comes a actual burnout if he keeps going like this for more months. But now to the things we can change. You and Gustavo are trying to change this project in a direction that should be more welcoming for developers and users. Making the community grow. I welcome this move, but doing something like this can not happen by bringing everything down that happened so far. Raster brought this all to the point what we have today. Motivating people on the road and de-motivating people on the road. Again, very natural as we don't live in flower-power land. :) So to change to bring in change to this community you need to earn the respect of the other developers here before steering the way forward. Bluntly speaking nobody wants to accept orders from people he does not respect or being paid by. And even the last part may be very hard sometimes. ;) For the matters at hand the following could be done: o Tarballs: Everyone seem to speak about daily tarballs. What I read from the openbsd guys have not been daily tarballs but tarballs for an alpha or rc to check if everything is fine beofre the actual release. Such tarballs are fine and have already been acknowledged and done before. They will even get some QA. And QA is something that differs from daily tarballs, like your script or a simple make disctheck, will produce. SOLUTION: Wait for the alpha and rc tarballs. o OpenBSD patches: Vincent asked raster to have a look at the patches. He did look and pointed out what was wrong. Agreed, a bit to blunt maybe. He did mention better options though. Something that people like to ignore in this thread. (BSD specific malloc changes in mempool instead on every file using it, not changing API/ABI with
