--- Resending from my server, it seems gmail's IP has been
blocked by sourceforge because of abuse ... ----
Thanks Stefan for another well written email, I guess that
psychology minor is indeed useful :)
Thanks Mike also for some of the things you said.. I didn't
like most of it, but I did find some interesting points that
you've made, the most important one being that this
discussion should have been taken off list and I agree with
that.
Anyways, this discussion is clearly leading nowhere at this
point, and I can see how my reactions weren't the most
adequate. I think it's time to close this chapter of the
drama, and for that (and to avoid writing another long
email), I will refrain from commenting on anything you guys
said.
Instead, I would like to simply apologize to raster in case
I ever offended you with anything I've said. This was not a
personal vendetta against you and I have nothing against
you, but I did not like our interactions in the past and I
wanted to make you aware of that.
That being said, I hope we can all move on and continue
working together towards a common goal, with no bad blood
within the community.
Again sorry for my previous outbursts, and sorry if I
annoyed or offended anyone.
Thanks,
KaKaRoTo
On Sun, Nov 13, 2011 at 06:31:55PM +0100, Stefan Schmidt wrote:
> Hello.
>
> [Long delay, mothers birthday, sick, etc]
>
>
> On Sat, 2011-11-12 at 21:58, Youness Alaoui wrote:
> >
> > Thank you for this well written and thought out email, I agree with you on
> > everything you said (even the bits in which you criticize me), so thanks
> > again for that.
>
> The psychology minor should be worth at least something. :)
>
> > I would just like to add a few explanations, you seem to see me as someone
> > who barks up at raster and tries to change him by forcing him into a
> > corner, and you are right to believe that because I guess that's what I
> > show somehow. However that is and was not my initial intention, so here is
> > "my story" :
> > Initially, I've had a few interactions with raster which always seemed to
> > end up with me feeling bad because of how he talks to me, I kept feeling
> > almost bullied, but I didn't give it too much attention, I was told by
> > others not to take it personal as that's just how raster is. My excitement
> > for the project was getting hit everytime I spoke to raster. I cannot point
> > out a log and say "this sentence was harsh", it was just the general mood
> > of the discussions, the way he talks to you makes you feel dumb and he
> > seems condescending, even if he's trying to be nice. And while I understand
> > the stress issues you've brought up, I did not take these into
> > consideration at the time, as all I could see was someone's attitude being
> > that of a condescending leader who takes charge, is very stubborn, and
> > doesn't accept any criticism. As a side joke, someone told me that he was
> > able to change raster's opinion "once", and it was an accomplishment. So I
> > believe he is stubborn, he sees his designs, his ideas as better than
> > everyone else's and he understands everything while others cannot
> > understand what he knows, so when you give a suggestion, he turns it down
> > in such a way that it feels "I know better, you are stupid, your intellect
> > cannot begin to grasp the infinite knowledge needed to understand the issue
> > at hand, so I will tell you what to do and you must accept it".. this is
> > not what he says, but this is what it feels when you talk to him, and in
> > the end, he looks arrogant and almost like a bully. I'm not saying that's
> > who he is, I'm just saying that's what it feels like to others who talk to
> > him (ie. me in this case).
> > This attitude made me feel bad a few times and demotivated me, thankfully,
> > I've had some excellent chats with other devs in #e.fr and the community
> > there is warm and welcoming and now I usually just hang there instead of
> > #edevelop.
> > Now I've seen many people talk the same about raster, many feel the same
> > way, and many simply tell me not to talk to him, or that we shouldn't
> > discuss anything with him, and I've seen a lot of 'hate', anger,
> > disappointment with some of the things he does, but noone seems to just
> > tell him. One thing I really hate, it's that excuse of "he is like that, so
> > let him". That sentence pisses me off to no extent and I usually reply with
> > "he's a pedophile, so let him rape children because that's just how he
> > is?", it's an extreme counter example, and that's how I always feel when
> > people have to tiptoe around someone else's defects. If someone
> > is being an ass, you tell him he's an ass and he must fix
> > himself, you should not have to endure him just because it's his
> > personality. Everytime, the pedophile example pops to my mind,
> > and I get frustrated when I see people tiptoeing around others.
>
> Well, the unpleasent example aside, tiptoeing around other peoples
> defects is what other people actually call social skills. :)
>
> If you work with people you need to understand what they are capable
> of and what not. And then you need to arrange it that mostly the
> advantages are visible. You want change people. You may change their
> opinions on some aspects of a discussion and they maybe tell you that
> they will change (if you are the boss), but people only change from
> within not from the outside. Giving hints and help for the change is
> possible, but the change itself can not be done from the outside.
>
> > I have a lot of respect for raster, I know his skills and I'm the first to
> > say that he is a very talented developer. But that talent does not excuse
> > his behavior, if I feel offended by someone, I will tell them, I will not
> > keep it to myself just because I respect his programming skills. But either
> > way, I decided not to confront raster because it is simply not my place to
> > do so.
>
> But then your complain came in bursts. Held back to long and then
> expressed in mails he is likely to get offended by. (And you
> should really look for better examples, nearer to the topic and
> not handicapped with such problematic topics. My witch hunt term
> was a bad example here as well.)
>
> > Then we've had that discussion about the release, and while I was politely
> > trying to explain my point of view, I get increasingly pissed at raster
> > (and his faithful followers) ignoring some of our arguments and
> > concentrating on the simple "I do not like/want this" but what ticked me
> > off is when raster, the master of being rude, tells me that I'm the one
> > being rude because I give my opinion, and he has the audacity of basically
> > saying my opinion means nothing because I'm not a major contributor (== I'm
> > not him). I am usually nice and polite, but when someone pisses me off and
> > I reach a certain threshold (which I admit, is often quite low), I explode,
> > at which point, there is no limits to what I can say. So when raster yelled
> > at me and said that I'm rude, I did not accept that so I decided to let him
> > know what I think of him exactly. He ignored pretty much everything I said
> > though.
>
> If I think about the long mail you wrote I would say you could be
> happy that he ignored almost everything targetted at him
> personally. :)
>
> > In this specific thread, I did not start the drama (I don't believe I did),
> > one of the new contributors says he is also pissed at raster for the way he
> > spoke to him, and I replied to raster basically telling him "hint, hint,
> > read back what I wrote in anger last time, because you ignored it, but now
> > maybe you'll realize there was truth in it", at which point he finally
> > decides to snap at me and start yelling and taking it personal (which he
> > refrained from doing in the initial outburst email).
>
>
>
> > Now, I'm not trying to change raster or to force him into a corner. I'm
> > trying to make him realize what he's doing
>
> That is really just two sides of the same medal. Jelling at him to
> realize something is always forcing the person in some corner
> where he does react differently. The same was happening to you as
> you described above. You wrote that you have felt bad after
> talking with him. That is exactly the same. He was not giving you
> enough space in the discussions and you have been standing back to
> the wall in a corner. Making you feel bad.
>
> > because I honestly believe that
> > he's killing the project in some way. He's building the project, but
> > killing it at the same time. I don't think he has much leadership skills,
> > he demotivates people, he drives away contributors, he makes decisions that
> > are what he thinks is right and you cannot contradict it even if you know
> > it's the wrong move.
>
> How would you know that they are wrong? Fromyour own projects/work
> experience certainly. That a different communit and or workplace.
> Strategies that work somewhere are not bound to work elsewhere.
> This community needs to find strategies. Ideas from elsewhere
> should be welcome but that does not mean they need to be taken as
> is.
>
> Take me as an example. I would switch to git, I would change the
> coding style, I would handle releases in a different way. This may
> attract new developers, but it certainly will also drive others
> away. But I'm not trying to bring this all in here as it is
> already established in a very old project. I respect what is here
> and deal with it instead of changing every project I work on. And
> who knows if such changes really bring in so many new developers.
> Neither of us is able to predict the future. Its always a challenge
> to find the balance between keeping what you have and doing
> something new. Growing is even more of a challenge. While the EFL
> libs are getting momentum the E17 WM does not as much and I don't
> see the big market of interest develoeprs in E17 just waiting to
> join us.
>
> > I think that's pretty much "my story" as to this whole deal and I hope you
> > can understand me better, I'll answer your specific comments inlined below.
>
> To be honest, not much new turned up in here what I did not figure
> out from all the other mails I read. But it helped to summarize it
> and let me respond to kind in an easier fashion. Thanks for this.
>
> > On Sat, Nov 12, 2011 at 8:26 PM, Stefan Schmidt
> > <ste...@datenfreihafen.org>wrote:
> >
> > > I have not joined any of these flame wares before as I don't think to
> > > change anything significant but only start to hurt peoples feelings
> > > for each other. But I had to join here as it started to look like a
> > > witch hunt on raster here. Please take a moment when reading this.
> > > Thanks for your time.
> > >
> > Not a witch hunt on raster, honestly. Simply frustration at a dying
> > community. If someone else is causing issues, I will speak out just the
> > same (and if I am the one causing issues, I would not want it any other way
> > than people calling me out for my mistakes).
>
> You can't treat different people the same way. Simply not
> possible. And while you wanted to be called out like this, maybe
> not exatcly the same way you did it in some mails, it may not fit
> for others.
>
> > > On Sat, 2011-11-12 at 13:43, Youness Alaoui wrote:
> > > >
> > > > you don't seem to read what I wrote, you ignore the facts.. the facts
> > > > are
> > > > not the commits or how bad they were, the facts were your attitude and
> > > > condescending bullshit. but yeah,you don't seem to be able to
> > > > acknowledge
> > > > that, since you're perfect and everyone else is wrong.
> > >
> > > Great, personal insults are getting us really forward here. This is
> > > one of the social skills you are calling here for. Discussing with
> > > others without getting into personal insults. Given this mail and the
> > > long rant where you "behaved like a dick" (citation from you) are
> > > letting me wonder if you are able to call others for things you do not
> > > handle very well on your own. Something to thing about.
> > >
> >
> > Sorry, I don't see the personal insult in the quoted text. I do see sarcasm
> > though.
>
> And putting it into sarcasm does not hurt people? Its often used
> that way but does not make it any better.
>
> > I know quite well my issues, I am usually a nice person until you make me
> > snap, at which point, you won't recognize me. I have absolutely no problem
> > in being a dick towards people who, I believe, deserve it. I'm a
> > "reactionary dick" if you want..
>
> But it own your private "social skills to improved" list. :)
>
> > I see raster as being a dick by default.
> > However, I am pointing out what annoys me in raster's behavior, and I
> > believe I am entitled to do that without the need for me to perfect.. noone
> > is perfect anyways, so no reason for me to shut up until I fix my own
> > personal issues.
>
> Surely you don't need to shut up. I need to point out that you
> could improve the tone of your mails when comlaining about the
> tone of others.
>
> > He may not respect me, so he has no reason to listen to me and change his
> > behavior. But I was hoping to maybe trigger others to finally speak out. I
> > see a lot of people angry at raster but noone talks, if I can get people he
> > knows and respect to finally speak their mind, maybe he'll listen to them.
>
> Maybe they don't see the situation not as the same drame, with a
> dying community, as you do.
>
> > > But now to the things we can change. You and Gustavo are trying to
> > > change this project in a direction that should be more welcoming for
> > > developers and users. Making the community grow. I welcome this move,
> > > but doing something like this can not happen by bringing everything
> > > down that happened so far. Raster brought this all to the point what
> > > we have today. Motivating people on the road and de-motivating people
> > > on the road. Again, very natural as we don't live in flower-power
> > > land. :)
> > >
> > /me wants to live in flower-power-land :)
>
> Hmm, I once had some routing informtion to it, but considered it
> to boring to go there. Thus I stayed active in the overall FOSS
> community. :)
>
> I left some parts out form your mail to focus on the important
> topics. I hope it did not destroy any meanings of it.
>
> > > For the matters at hand the following could be done:
> > >
> > > o Tarballs: Everyone seem to speak about daily tarballs. What I read
> > > from the openbsd guys have not been daily tarballs but tarballs for
> > > an alpha or rc to check if everything is fine beofre the actual
> > > release. Such tarballs are fine and have already been acknowledged
> > > and done before. They will even get some QA. And QA is something
> > > that differs from daily tarballs, like your script or a simple make
> > > disctheck, will produce. SOLUTION: Wait for the alpha and rc
> > > tarballs.
> > >
> > Tarballs as is are important, even non-QA-ed daily tarballs. And like I
> > told Jonathan, if he wants a guarantee that the tarball is good quality,
> > then he can just assume it is.
>
> Can you explain me why?
>
> I'm doing, and still do, release and distro engineering for
> embedded Linux system. Covering way to many software components.
> Thus I have to deal with the incoming software either as tarball,
> SCM, files or whatever. Some of them are actually releases other
> are tracking the bleeding edge of the development repos.
>
> If I take a tarball from a daily build, which is non-QA-ed by
> default I assume I could take a revision of the repo instead. If I
> take a release I expect a minimu set on QA from it. Depends on the
> project of course.
>
> Back to the topic. If daily tarballs are needed they can be done
> by anyone and automatically uploaded somewhere. You could do it,
> Jonathan could do it or others. What I read out from the mails was
> that tarballs have been requested for alpha and rc's.
>
> > > o OpenBSD patches: Vincent asked raster to have a look at the patches.
> > > He did look and pointed out what was wrong. Agreed, a bit to blunt
> > > maybe. He did mention better options though. Something that people
> > > like to ignore in this thread. (BSD specific malloc changes in
> > > mempool instead on every file using it, not changing API/ABI without
> > > discussing it here). SOLUTION: To calm this down you or Vincent or
> > > someone else can keep working with them to gte the changes in. That
> > > involves understanding why so much changes are needed and bringing
> > > it up here to discuss about a solution. Uninteresting work like
> > > reviewing patches from the ml and putting them into svn. But it
> > > helps to balance the load. Raster is nobody who calls others for
> > > doing things for him. He waits until he comes to it and does them
> > > alone. To me that looks like he lost his faith in this because it
> > > did not work out well in many cases. Sure, that is something he
> > > needs to improve. That is nothing that stops others from stepping up
> > > and doing it without being asked for though. Mike, Vincent, Cedric
> > > and others are reviewing patches here on the ml. That takes of load
> > > from raster. He did not ask them to do it.
> > > For your tarball script you could do the same. Why must it happen on
> > > the main machine? You can host them yourself and when they are
> > > really becoming popular they can get moved. Not enough capabilities
> > > for hosting? I bet e.fr or others can help out there.
> > >
> > I just think if the tarballs need to be public, they'd better be on a
> > public machine. I was thinking one of the e.fr machines out there or
> > whatever. I don't know yet how you guys would like to set it up.
>
> Talk to them. Getting a account there should be easy. Heck, even
> Mike got an account there ;) And uploading them automatically in
> your public_html is also easy enough.
>
> > > Phew, long mail. To long actually. The main point here is that it does
> > > not help to forcing raster into a corner here. He is the main driver
> > > of the project and if people like to expand it need to be done in a
> > > way that do not offend the people that are already working on it.
> > > People earn respect and faith of others in their work by actual
> > > doings. There must not be a leader who is always right and delegates
> > > work into his hierarchy of minions. You have a pet peeve topic? You
> > > want to improve it? Don't ask for permission, do it and improve the
> > > situation gradually.
> > >
> > Not very long email (I've seen and done worse) :)
> > As explained above, I just speak my mind, if I see something that bothers
> > me, I will do it,
>
> I down what to change this. Speaking up is good. Waiting for some
> ours to calm down and being polite in any case helps to
> de-escalate though. :)
>
> > I believe in brainstorming, I believe in people contributing as a group,
> > but I've learned in the short time I've been here, that the consensus is
> > "if you want something done, do it without telling anyone". I find it sad.
>
> Well, its more like doing it and discussing afterwards is people
> scream. Thats why so many spankies are around here. :)
>
> If you think about this resources being wasted it can make one
> sad, agreed. I you think about it as several steps to the final
> result it can make you happy. :)
>
> > That's it for my long email, sorry for taking up your time reading all of
> > that, I hope you can understand my motivations and my feelings a bit better.
> > Thank you again for your email, I really enjoyed reading your opinion on
> > the subject.
>
> You are welcome.
>
> regards
> Stefan Schmidt
>
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