On Sun, 13 Nov 2011 02:26:00 +0100 Stefan Schmidt <ste...@datenfreihafen.org> wrote:
> Hello. > > I have not joined any of these flame wares before as I don't think to > change anything significant but only start to hurt peoples feelings > for each other. But I had to join here as it started to look like a > witch hunt on raster here. Please take a moment when reading this. > Thanks for your time. > > On Sat, 2011-11-12 at 13:43, Youness Alaoui wrote: > > > > you don't seem to read what I wrote, you ignore the facts.. the facts are > > not the commits or how bad they were, the facts were your attitude and > > condescending bullshit. but yeah,you don't seem to be able to acknowledge > > that, since you're perfect and everyone else is wrong. > > Great, personal insults are getting us really forward here. This is > one of the social skills you are calling here for. Discussing with > others without getting into personal insults. Given this mail and the > long rant where you "behaved like a dick" (citation from you) are > letting me wonder if you are able to call others for things you do not > handle very well on your own. Something to thing about. > > > Thank you Vincent and Gustavo for sharing your concerns about this, and > > it's too sad that the new contributor has become another victim of raster's > > poor social skills. That's what I wanted to avoid, that's what I wanted > > raster to understand, and I was hoping for him to reply with something like > > "sorry if I offended you, that wasn't my purpose" and that's it, the guy > > stays with us, but I guess raster has too much pride and is too > > self-centered to recognize his own faults. > > And you wanted that to happen by forcing him into a corner? > > That is almost always the best recipe to get the opposite of what you > wanted. Forcing people trigger over reactions from them. Self > protection, naturally for humans. Changing the behaviour of people is > a long and exhausting process. Nothing you can do by sending of > several mails. And before people even accept what they here from > others they need to respect them. Respect them for their doings and > ideas they have come up with over time. Again nothing you can achieve > in some weeks. > > > I think I will follow Vincent's advice and not reply to this thread > > anymore, raster clearly showed he has no comprehension of what people are > > trying to tell him here, so this is just an endless drama with no possible > > resolution. > > Black and white thinking all around. Sadly we live in a grey world. > Nothing is only black or only white. Lets have a look at what problems > we have here and what possible solutions we can come up with. (That > what we should aim for in the end, a solution bringing the project > forward). > > Raster is stressed out. Short on time and running at the edge of what > is possible for him all the time. Thats a fact and on of the biggest > problems here. Stress calls out on people making hard decisions and > one of this is being brusque to others. I have observed this a lot at > myself when being in stressful times. Family and friends had the > pleasure to get me in such a mood. And even after I recognized this > at myself (the first step, you know), it is very hard to change at > all. Again, behaviour changes are the hardest. > > The work part of raster stress we can't influence much. He has to > handle this on its own. And I personally hope that he realizes how > near he comes a actual burnout if he keeps going like this for more > months. > > But now to the things we can change. You and Gustavo are trying to > change this project in a direction that should be more welcoming for > developers and users. Making the community grow. I welcome this move, > but doing something like this can not happen by bringing everything > down that happened so far. Raster brought this all to the point what > we have today. Motivating people on the road and de-motivating people > on the road. Again, very natural as we don't live in flower-power > land. :) > > So to change to bring in change to this community you need to earn the > respect of the other developers here before steering the way forward. > Bluntly speaking nobody wants to accept orders from people he does not > respect or being paid by. And even the last part may be very hard > sometimes. ;) > > For the matters at hand the following could be done: > > o Tarballs: Everyone seem to speak about daily tarballs. What I read > from the openbsd guys have not been daily tarballs but tarballs for > an alpha or rc to check if everything is fine beofre the actual > release. Such tarballs are fine and have already been acknowledged > and done before. They will even get some QA. And QA is something > that differs from daily tarballs, like your script or a simple make > disctheck, will produce. SOLUTION: Wait for the alpha and rc > tarballs. > > o OpenBSD patches: Vincent asked raster to have a look at the patches. > He did look and pointed out what was wrong. Agreed, a bit to blunt > maybe. He did mention better options though. Something that people > like to ignore in this thread. (BSD specific malloc changes in > mempool instead on every file using it, not changing API/ABI without > discussing it here). SOLUTION: To calm this down you or Vincent or > someone else can keep working with them to gte the changes in. That > involves understanding why so much changes are needed and bringing > it up here to discuss about a solution. Uninteresting work like > reviewing patches from the ml and putting them into svn. But it > helps to balance the load. Raster is nobody who calls others for > doing things for him. He waits until he comes to it and does them > alone. To me that looks like he lost his faith in this because it > did not work out well in many cases. Sure, that is something he > needs to improve. That is nothing that stops others from stepping up > and doing it without being asked for though. Mike, Vincent, Cedric > and others are reviewing patches here on the ml. That takes of load > from raster. He did not ask them to do it. > For your tarball script you could do the same. Why must it happen on > the main machine? You can host them yourself and when they are > really becoming popular they can get moved. Not enough capabilities > for hosting? I bet e.fr or others can help out there. > > Phew, long mail. To long actually. The main point here is that it does > not help to forcing raster into a corner here. He is the main driver > of the project and if people like to expand it need to be done in a > way that do not offend the people that are already working on it. > People earn respect and faith of others in their work by actual > doings. There must not be a leader who is always right and delegates > work into his hierarchy of minions. You have a pet peeve topic? You > want to improve it? Don't ask for permission, do it and improve the > situation gradually. > > regards > Stefan Schmidt What a great and important mail. I have rarely read better. -- Mike Blumenkrantz Zentific: Doctor recommended, mother approved. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ RSA(R) Conference 2012 Save $700 by Nov 18 Register now http://p.sf.net/sfu/rsa-sfdev2dev1 _______________________________________________ enlightenment-devel mailing list enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel
