Re: [expert] LM 7.2 and beyond (part 2)
[snip] Excellent Ideas. To carry it (run script from floppy) farther... the first part of the install would ensure an internet connection, the second part would call into play someone's (sorry forgot who) idea of a web based script that would allow a user to select from packages to load and either write a script to floppy/hard disk to install the remainder of the available packages from the CD's (assuming that local access is faster than d/ling from inet.) As long as you don't mean that the installation is dependant on an internet connection ... Also, think modular. Any configuration that gets done should be available after install (my sugestion is webmin's perl scripts, since they are already used/available after installation), and should preferably take advantage of existing apps (ie webmin). It should also be possible to "save" any part of the installation procedure (ok, maybe not hardware issues), like package selection, startup services etc independantly. Buchan -- Joseph S Gardner Senior Designer / Technical Support Kirby Co., Cleveland, OH [EMAIL PROTECTED] The box said, "Requires Windows 3.x or better", so I got Linux. Registered Linux user #1696600 Keep in touch with http://mandrakeforum.com: Subscribe the "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" mailing list. -- |--| Buchan MilneMechanical Engineer, Network Manager Cellphone +27824722231 email mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Centre for Automotive Engineering http://www.cae.co.za South Africas first satellite:http://sunsat.ee.sun.ac.za Control Models http://www.control.co.za |Registered Linux User #182071-| Keep in touch with http://mandrakeforum.com: Subscribe the "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" mailing list.
Re: [expert] LM 7.2 and beyond (part 2)
Buchan Milne wrote: [snip] Excellent Ideas. To carry it (run script from floppy) farther... the first part of the install would ensure an internet connection, the second part would call into play someone's (sorry forgot who) idea of a web based script that would allow a user to select from packages to load and either write a script to floppy/hard disk to install the remainder of the available packages from the CD's (assuming that local access is faster than d/ling from inet.) As long as you don't mean that the installation is dependant on an internet connection ... Also, think modular. Any configuration that gets done should be available after install (my sugestion is webmin's perl scripts, since they are already used/available after installation), and should preferably take advantage of existing apps (ie webmin). It should also be possible to "save" any part of the installation procedure (ok, maybe not hardware issues), like package selection, startup services etc independantly. Buchan -- Joseph S Gardner Senior Designer / Technical Support Kirby Co., Cleveland, OH [EMAIL PROTECTED] The box said, "Requires Windows 3.x or better", so I got Linux. Registered Linux user #1696600 Keep in touch with http://mandrakeforum.com: Subscribe the "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" mailing list. -- |--| Buchan MilneMechanical Engineer, Network Manager Cellphone +27824722231 email mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Centre for Automotive Engineering http://www.cae.co.za South Africas first satellite:http://sunsat.ee.sun.ac.za Control Models http://www.control.co.za |Registered Linux User #182071-| - Keep in touch with http://mandrakeforum.com: Subscribe the "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" mailing list. What I was thinking of was actually a lot simpler. I just wanted a script that could step it's way through a custom install. I was assuming that most of the info would be residing on the CDs. Remember, this whole thing has to fit on a floppy, so don't elaborate it too much. Besides, though I wanted the CD to write a basic script to the floppy, the idea was that it would then be edited by the sysAdmin. Customizations would be for things like, how to deal with differently sized hard disks, etc. The more ambitious suggestions are probably better saved for a post-install phase. (I.e., first get it going well, then modify it.) -- (c) Charles Hixson -- Addition of advertisements or hyperlinks to products specifically prohibited Keep in touch with http://mandrakeforum.com: Subscribe the "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" mailing list.
Re: [expert] LM 7.2 and beyond (part 2)
"Austin L. Denyer" wrote: This is my opinion. I sit on both edges of the OS fence (I use M$ aat work and Linux at home.) Unfortunately, I can not see giving most of the users I work with any linux packages at all. They would never get past the installations. Does this mean they are ignorant. Yep! But, you would not want me doing brain surgery either. I think LM should be working towards an "ignorant user" install option as well (I like the ideas in the previous message!). If you really want to convince the companies of "proprietary products" that the platform is one they need to pay attention to, then we have to convince the general public of the value of Linux as well. That is never going to happen when they can not do the first 5% (installation) in relative ease and lack of thought. M$ has the right idea when it comes to that 95% of the market that is computer tech illiterate. They take away the choices. It keeps them (the user) from being overwhelmed. To me, an "ignorant user" pacakge would come with a desktop or two to choose from at install time, but only one gets installed. Yeah - this flies in the face of what most of us want on our systems. But, before we are going to get the "masses" to use Linux/Un*x of any type, the confusion of installation (read too many choices) has to vanish. The installation package would also contain the mainstream "products" that are being used and agressively developed in the Linux/Un*x world. But, only one or two choices from each type, and GUI based. Embrace what has worked for M$ (ease of use up front, limited choices to the end user, ...) and extend it beyond their ability (Read stability, powere, etc in addition). I hate being forced to make money on M$ products, and would love to see M$ replaced with a sane platform. Believe it or not, it starts at the installation for most of my users. Outside of the use of FUD, these are the time proven tactics that M$ has used to squash competition and large scale innovation, and win support of the masses. What does everyone else think? I agree. We need a 'newbie' install option that makes all the technical decisions for you, as well as the other install options for those with more knowledge. Also, we could use a more 'user-friendly' way for the 'newbie' to install additional packages at a later date. An option to automagically install/download dependencies would be useful too - apologies if this is already in the newer releases; I am still on 7.0 until the weekend. Some Windoze applications have a 'basic' and 'expert' interface. The basic interface hides the complicated stuff from the user, but the expert interface still allows all functionality for the more experienced user. Another member of the group recommended taking out the repeated packages with similar functionality - I don't think that would work. There would be far too many holy wars re-started as to what is taken out. A better approach would be to more clearly indicate the pros and cons of the applications included, so that the user is better placed to make an informed decision as to what he wants. Just my $0.02 (Florida residents add 7% sales tax) Regards, Ozz. - Keep in touch with http://mandrakeforum.com: Subscribe the "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" mailing list. Perhaps a two part installer. Part one is totally automated, and sets up everything that it can be really sure about. Then the second phase which should have, say 4 level 1 choices, each of which have an update variant: a) Easy Install : assume that the user doesn't have any idea about what's going one. Obey the rule "First, do no harm". Automated install that asks as few questions as possible. b) Power User : This title is chosen to make the user feel good. It actually refers to the skill level of someone who writes Excel macros. A bit adventurous. Give them lots of choices that are harmless. Be sure that their network connections are safe. c) Customized: This guy is expected to be able to handle fdisk, set up partitions, choose what should be formatted, etc. This is the one that has choices on network access that read (1)wide open, (2)normal, (3)cautious, (4)paranoid. Applications are in groups, but the user can open up the group to select or deselect any package that is chosen. E.g., if the user select Editors, the opened list will show ed, edlin, vim, joe, ... all selected. The user is allowed to choose to unselect particular ones. d) Expert: This isn't really a standard installer. It starts with three choices: 1) recovery: Assumes that the software has already been installed, and that it needs fixing. This has a large pallet of tools, as it doesn't assume that the versions already installed on the disk are reliable. (You may think you've been rooted.) 2) installer: This one lists all of the packages,
Re: [expert] LM 7.2 and beyond (part 2)
Perhaps a two part installer. Part one is totally automated, and sets up everything that it can be really sure about. Then the second phase which should have, say 4 level 1 choices, each of which have an update variant: a) Easy Install : assume that the user doesn't have any idea about what's going one. Obey the rule "First, do no harm". Automated install that asks as few questions as possible. b) Power User : This title is chosen to make the user feel good. It actually refers to the skill level of someone who writes Excel macros. A bit adventurous. Give them lots of choices that are harmless. Be sure that their network connections are safe. c) Customized: This guy is expected to be able to handle fdisk, set up partitions, choose what should be formatted, etc. This is the one that has choices on network access that read (1)wide open, (2)normal, (3)cautious, (4)paranoid. Applications are in groups, but the user can open up the group to select or deselect any package that is chosen. E.g., if the user select Editors, the opened list will show ed, edlin, vim, joe, ... all selected. The user is allowed to choose to unselect particular ones. d) Expert: This isn't really a standard installer. It starts with three choices: 1) recovery: Assumes that the software has already been installed, and that it needs fixing. This has a large pallet of tools, as it doesn't assume that the versions already installed on the disk are reliable. (You may think you've been rooted.) 2) installer: This one lists all of the packages, and lets one install either the package, or selected files from the package. (Presumably the original install was done with one of the other levels. But you CAN select packages to install from here. It would just be very inconvenient to select many of them.) 3) scripted: This one starts with three options. a) "Write a basic installer script to the floppy" (Probably not necessary, but useful.) The basic installer script should be a disk that is bootable, given that the CD is inserted. It should be sufficient to do the customized install, and can be machine specific if it must, but I'd rather it wasn't. b) Edit the floppy script. c) Run the script from the floppy. What I really have in mind for this option is that SysAdmins would be able to set it up to do a custom install, but with all of the questions answered by the script. That way when a new machine came in, they could just take the CD and the floppy, and boot the machine with the CD in place, and the floppy in the drive. Possibly the computer would need to be set to boot from the CD, even when the floppy was present. Then they could depend on autoprobing to handle most hardware changes, but the script should be in, say, Python. That way complex choices could be made. The script would, for instance, ask the installer how big the disk was, and once it had the answer it would calculate how much space for each partition, what partition type, etc. -- (c) Charles Hixson Excellent Ideas. To carry it (run script from floppy) farther... the first part of the install would ensure an internet connection, the second part would call into play someone's (sorry forgot who) idea of a web based script that would allow a user to select from packages to load and either write a script to floppy/hard disk to install the remainder of the available packages from the CD's (assuming that local access is faster than d/ling from inet.) -- Joseph S Gardner Senior Designer / Technical Support Kirby Co., Cleveland, OH [EMAIL PROTECTED] The box said, "Requires Windows 3.x or better", so I got Linux. Registered Linux user #1696600 Keep in touch with http://mandrakeforum.com: Subscribe the "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" mailing list.
Re: [expert] LM 7.2 and beyond (part 2)
On Tue, 24 Oct 2000, Charles Hixson wrote: One thing to fix. If the X window installation goofs, then the install process is broken. There doesn't seem to be any way to switch to a text mode at that point. (Well, ok, this was an install of somebody else. But the point is important anyway.) X window locked up solid. This needs to be guarded against. There needs to be a reasonable way through this, so that at least a non-graphical install can be completed. -- (c) Charles Hixson -- Addition of advertisements or hyperlinks to products specifically prohibited Content-Type: text/plain; name="message.footer" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Description: DITTO!!! I've had this problem with both mandrake 6.1, 7.0 and 7.1. I can fix it up afterwards, but it hasn't been easy to figure it out. Keep in touch with http://mandrakeforum.com: Subscribe the "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" mailing list.
Re: [expert] LM 7.2 and beyond (part 2)
One thing to fix. If the X window installation goofs, then the install process is broken. There doesn't seem to be any way to switch to a text mode at that point. (Well, ok, this was an install of somebody else. But the point is important anyway.) X window locked up solid. This needs to be guarded against. There needs to be a reasonable way through this, so that at least a non-graphical install can be completed. -- (c) Charles Hixson -- Addition of advertisements or hyperlinks to products specifically prohibited Keep in touch with http://mandrakeforum.com: Subscribe the "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" mailing list.
Re: [expert] LM 7.2 and beyond (part 2)
kpackage and similar offer a graphic inetrface that is similar to add/remove programs - they just havent gone the step further and integrated extra module control, you have to do it. And as for tryng to add say, gxedit and having extra packages installed, thats called dependencies in linux - if you want it to work - you must install them! In short, linux does have the equivalent, working in a similar way, but it is quite primative in user facilities and operation compared to the microsoft product! I would dearly be able to look at a display and see what I need to install a package, before I download it, not after like linux does. Mandrake Update is also a form of auto-installation. And there are the debian folks who script apt-get so it runs in the background and keeps their system up to date - automatically. What Linux does give is more low level control, but paradoxicly what it needs is better high level control such as a better uninstall, be able to preview changes with little work and handhold those with little experiance, whilst keeping low level control. So whats the distinction - control (Linux), usability (MS). And food for thought, the more control you give someone, without the help or knowlege to control it, the more damage they can do. Dont confuse the design decisions made by MS with being unsophisticated, it is often VERY sohpisticated under the hood, particularly in gui design, where kde (which I use) and gnome (urk) are playing catchup. BillK I think you're missing one very basic distinction between the Windoze world and the Linux world (and thus the breadth of the problem of auto-installation). Keep in touch with http://mandrakeforum.com: Subscribe the "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" mailing list.
Re: [expert] LM 7.2 and beyond (part 2)
The different users would look like (and the most likely percentage of current computer users): *** This is my Gut feeling. .5% Guru - If the guru does not know the answer, normally, nobody does. 2% Advanced user - Can handle all day to day issues, plan, build and develop systems. Rarely needs reference material anymore. 5% Intermediate user - Can handle day to day issues, plan simple builds, but not ready to develop systems. 10% Beginning user - Can get into most "normal" applications and get their own work done. Has almost no idea about how it all works. 83.5% Newbie - Just installed Linux. Has no idea what to do next. Clicks on things and gets lost. I have no ideas if your numbers are correct but I will make this comment. The notion that you're going to hand Linux of any kind to a true newcomer to a computer and expect that they're going to actually install and run it is beyond reason. The same is almost as true for Windows. This is what keeps Apple afloat and makes the iMac popular. I'm not saying this to be perjorative towards Apple or you Bill but I think it's reasonable to make distinctions between true computer users (who can do things independently) and the vast masses who use computers at work with tech support. The Guru level would basically get the option on everything, and be able to see all packages, whereas the Newbie would get only the most uncomplicated stuff (read GUI or very simple shell.) The problem with tiered installations is that the Linux world is dependent upon the Internet for its support and for software access. I agree with you that lots of stuff needs to be eliminated and tied up for newbies but the minute they download a program from freshmeat they're in trouble with such a system. At this point, I think the best that a company like Mandrake can hope for is to provide products that will make gurus, gurus supporting application users, and your intermediate categories. My wife uses computers every day and yet couldn't get a modem or network card functioning if her life depended upon it even with Windows. My dad won't install W'95 or '98 on his system because it's "too complicated" to learn a new desktop from his 3.1 desktop. Linux is not designed for those people unless they have tech support. The popularity of Windows didn't come by it expanding outward from the home to business; it went the other way around. People with tech support learned enough about it (by using apps running on it) to want it at home. By the time it hit their desktop at home they already knew the basics of the operating system and probably still had access to someone who could answer questions for them. So it will be with Linux but we have to be patient. Cheers --- Larry Keep in touch with http://mandrakeforum.com: Subscribe the "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" mailing list.
Re: [expert] LM 7.2 and beyond (part 2)
Submitted 19-Oct-00 by Austin L. Denyer: I've not tried the latest releases, but upgrading 6.5 to 7.0 didn't work - I had to totally re-install. 6.5 wasn't really Mandrake; it was MacMillan's repackaging of Mandrake 6.1. They broke a lot of thing in it, which caused no end of headaches for many users. I was able to easily upgrade a 6.0 box to 6.1, then 7.0 and 7.1 as they came out. -- Anton GrahamGPG ID: 0x18F78541 [EMAIL PROTECTED] RSA key available upon request "It is as natural to man to die as to be born; and to a little infant, perhaps, the one is as painful as the other." -- Francis Bacon, Of Death Keep in touch with http://mandrakeforum.com: Subscribe the "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" mailing list.
Re: [expert] LM 7.2 and beyond (part 2)
On Fri, 20 Oct 2000 09:41:13 +0200, Marco Fioretti said: IMHO, it would be wonderful to do it on the www site BEFORE installing, something like this: 1) You get the package list from the site, and study it at your leisure, figuring out what you really need 2) On the WWW site, maybe in several sessions, you select the packages you choose, and 3) some CGI interface to RPM checks the dependencies saying "you should either add this or take that out". It shoud also tell you exactly how much HD space will be needed. Repeat steps 2 and 3 as many times as needed, maybe going back to the site the day after, until all dependencies are sorted out. 4) When the list is clean, it should be possible to save it on a floppy, so that 5) When you actually install, and must select packages you can just put the floppy in, and the installation program will install all and only those packages. (this is going to be though on laptops not having CDROm and FLOPPY useable together. Ah, well) Last but not least, all this should be possible also after installation. By this I mean that one installs, figures out in some weeks or months what he actually needs, and then, with the list said above, reconfigures everything with one keystroke, not running kpackage/rpm N times. Final note on point 2):at least in the first selection, one should have to select ONLY the **applications** (apache,window maker, perl, emacs...) not all the libraries they need, of which most people know nothing and care even less as long as the thing works. Just my two cents, Marco Fioretti Umm...if you swap the WWW bit for a console...isn't this what dselect does? which brings me to something I've always been curious about...is it problems with the RPM format that stops things like dselect and apt being implemented on Mandrake? OK I admit it...sometimes I wonder what a .deb based Mandrake would be like :) Andrew (I know...I'm waffling...its been a bad day) Keep in touch with http://mandrakeforum.com: Subscribe the "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" mailing list.
Re: [expert] LM 7.2 and beyond (part 2)
Larry Marshall wrote: Keep all the packages up-to-date Probably not a popular opinion but it makes more sense to keep most of those packages one version behind the cutting edge in your official distributions. All you need to do is look at what's going on right now with RH7.0 to see that being on the edge can spell lots of trouble. If you're going after the Windows user you can't have things crashing and being incompatible as they just aren't going to buy into the "download this and compile" model. This really depends on the package itself. Redhat was really stupid to release a package not supported by the developers. However, when, for example, samba 2.2.0 comes out, I would be very happy for Mandrake to ship a CD the next day that has RPMs on it. Why ? Because I know the samba team are almost religious about the stability of their software. They had samba 2.2.0-alpha0 running for more than 2 weeks without any problems before officially releasing the alpha0 snapshot. It comes down to a judgement call. I would advocate Mandrake even putting in cutting edge apps that are only available in the expert install. [snip] get rid of junk progs (WE NEED YOUR HELP HERE!) Maybe it would be an idea to have a web site where we can rate the current packages in Mandrake and elect new packages (I vote "no" from gnomba, and "yes" for LinNeighbourhood in advance!). You know what I think? I think you need to change the way you divide up the installation options. You're doing a really good job of letting experts select what they want installed. You do nothing to allow non-computer saavy people to do this. v7.2 seems to even drop the "normal/developer" option from the basic installation. In one way that makes sense why can't a less-than-expert person decide whether they want games on their machine or not? The "custom" installation did cater for this in 7.0/7.1, is it still there in 7.2? (I'm still waiting for my 7.2beta3 CDs to arrive) The server installation should be more detailed, like having tickboxes for the following services: -web server (apache) -database server (MySQL/PostgreSQL) -dynamic web content (mod*, php etc / zope) -mail server (postfix/sendmail + imap/pop3) -Windows file+print server (samba) -Mac file+print server (netatalk) -Internet configuration server (DNS/DHCP) -Firewall -IP Masquerading -ftp server -Unix file+print server (NFS/LPD) -terminal server (telnet/ssh) -proxy server -Remote administration (webmin) (more ?) This could even be done with the "normal" and "development" choices -Office (abi gnumeric) -Graphics (gimp etc) -Multimedia (xmms and friends) -Email After selecting the combination of these services/features, one might want to go on to a simple configuration screen for each one. For example, the "Windows File and Print" could have a screen that sets up workgroup name, joins an NT domain or configures a PDC, shares printers. If these "screens" are done well enough, and in a modular fashion, they could be built into DrakConf (and eventually replace linuxconf!!). You should look into the perl scripts that come with webmin. I think they could be used as a backend (as they currently are to the web interface) to a set of Mandrake front-ends. I really hate the amount of wasted effort in linux/oss software. There are so many projects that do similar things, yet aren't anywhere near where they should be. For this reason, I would hope that Mandrake rather support the development of webmin, for example, and make it's own cool (but ncurses also for us CLI people) frontends to webmins perl scripts. OK. Now I've given enough ideas to you mandrake to qualify for either shares when you guys IPO, or for a job when I'm finished studying (although I don't know what you would do with a mechanical engineer with lots of linux/samba/NT/html/Matlab experience), whichever happens first! Buchan -- |--| Buchan MilneMechanical Engineer, Network Manager Cellphone +27824722231 email mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Centre for Automotive Engineering http://www.cae.co.za South Africas first satellite:http://sunsat.ee.sun.ac.za Control Models http://www.control.co.za |Registered Linux User #182071-| Keep in touch with http://mandrakeforum.com: Subscribe the "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" mailing list.
Re: [expert] LM 7.2 and beyond (part 2)
I've not tried the latest releases, but upgrading 6.5 to 7.0 didn't work - I had to totally re-install. 6.5 wasn't really Mandrake; it was MacMillan's repackaging of Mandrake 6.1. They broke a lot of thing in it, which caused no end of headaches for many users. I was able to easily upgrade a 6.0 box to 6.1, then 7.0 and 7.1 as they came out. That would explain a lot of things. I have to admit that I was not overly impressed with 6.5 - I downloaded 7.0 in desperation... Anyway, I should have first-hand experience of 7.0 to 7.1 soon, as I'm hopefully getting a copy of 7.1 from one of our LUG members tomorrow. I'll let y'all know how it goes... Regards, Ozz. Keep in touch with http://mandrakeforum.com: Subscribe the "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" mailing list.
Re: [expert] LM 7.2 and beyond (part 2)
This is my opinion. I sit on both edges of the OS fence (I use M$ aat work and Linux at home.) Unfortunately, I can not see giving most of the users I work with any linux packages at all. They would never get past the installations. Does this mean they are ignorant. Yep! But, you would not want me doing brain surgery either. I think LM should be working towards an "ignorant user" install option as well (I like the ideas in the previous message!). If you really want to convince the companies of "proprietary products" that the platform is one they need to pay attention to, then we have to convince the general public of the value of Linux as well. That is never going to happen when they can not do the first 5% (installation) in relative ease and lack of thought. M$ has the right idea when it comes to that 95% of the market that is computer tech illiterate. They take away the choices. It keeps them (the user) from being overwhelmed. To me, an "ignorant user" pacakge would come with a desktop or two to choose from at install time, but only one gets installed. Yeah - this flies in the face of what most of us want on our systems. But, before we are going to get the "masses" to use Linux/Un*x of any type, the confusion of installation (read too many choices) has to vanish. The installation package would also contain the mainstream "products" that are being used and agressively developed in the Linux/Un*x world. But, only one or two choices from each type, and GUI based. Embrace what has worked for M$ (ease of use up front, limited choices to the end user, ...) and extend it beyond their ability (Read stability, powere, etc in addition). I hate being forced to make money on M$ products, and would love to see M$ replaced with a sane platform. Believe it or not, it starts at the installation for most of my users. Outside of the use of FUD, these are the time proven tactics that M$ has used to squash competition and large scale innovation, and win support of the masses. What does everyone else think? - Original Message - From: "Buchan Milne" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, October 20, 2000 7:30 AM Subject: Re: [expert] LM 7.2 and beyond (part 2) Larry Marshall wrote: Keep all the packages up-to-date Probably not a popular opinion but it makes more sense to keep most of those packages one version behind the cutting edge in your official distributions. All you need to do is look at what's going on right now with RH7.0 to see that being on the edge can spell lots of trouble. If you're going after the Windows user you can't have things crashing and being incompatible as they just aren't going to buy into the "download this and compile" model. This really depends on the package itself. Redhat was really stupid to release a package not supported by the developers. However, when, for example, samba 2.2.0 comes out, I would be very happy for Mandrake to ship a CD the next day that has RPMs on it. Why ? Because I know the samba team are almost religious about the stability of their software. They had samba 2.2.0-alpha0 running for more than 2 weeks without any problems before officially releasing the alpha0 snapshot. It comes down to a judgement call. I would advocate Mandrake even putting in cutting edge apps that are only available in the expert install. [snip] get rid of junk progs (WE NEED YOUR HELP HERE!) Maybe it would be an idea to have a web site where we can rate the current packages in Mandrake and elect new packages (I vote "no" from gnomba, and "yes" for LinNeighbourhood in advance!). You know what I think? I think you need to change the way you divide up the installation options. You're doing a really good job of letting experts select what they want installed. You do nothing to allow non-computer saavy people to do this. v7.2 seems to even drop the "normal/developer" option from the basic installation. In one way that makes sense why can't a less-than-expert person decide whether they want games on their machine or not? The "custom" installation did cater for this in 7.0/7.1, is it still there in 7.2? (I'm still waiting for my 7.2beta3 CDs to arrive) The server installation should be more detailed, like having tickboxes for the following services: -web server (apache) -database server (MySQL/PostgreSQL) -dynamic web content (mod*, php etc / zope) -mail server (postfix/sendmail + imap/pop3) -Windows file+print server (samba) -Mac file+print server (netatalk) -Internet configuration server (DNS/DHCP) -Firewall -IP Masquerading -ftp server -Unix file+print server (NFS/LPD) -terminal server (telnet/ssh) -proxy server -Remote administration (webmin) (more ?) This could even be done with the "normal" and "development" choices -Office (abi gn
Re: [expert] LM 7.2 and beyond (part 2)
This is my opinion. I sit on both edges of the OS fence (I use M$ aat work and Linux at home.) Unfortunately, I can not see giving most of the users I work with any linux packages at all. They would never get past the installations. Does this mean they are ignorant. Yep! But, you would not want me doing brain surgery either. I think LM should be working towards an "ignorant user" install option as well (I like the ideas in the previous message!). If you really want to convince the companies of "proprietary products" that the platform is one they need to pay attention to, then we have to convince the general public of the value of Linux as well. That is never going to happen when they can not do the first 5% (installation) in relative ease and lack of thought. M$ has the right idea when it comes to that 95% of the market that is computer tech illiterate. They take away the choices. It keeps them (the user) from being overwhelmed. To me, an "ignorant user" pacakge would come with a desktop or two to choose from at install time, but only one gets installed. Yeah - this flies in the face of what most of us want on our systems. But, before we are going to get the "masses" to use Linux/Un*x of any type, the confusion of installation (read too many choices) has to vanish. The installation package would also contain the mainstream "products" that are being used and agressively developed in the Linux/Un*x world. But, only one or two choices from each type, and GUI based. Embrace what has worked for M$ (ease of use up front, limited choices to the end user, ...) and extend it beyond their ability (Read stability, powere, etc in addition). I hate being forced to make money on M$ products, and would love to see M$ replaced with a sane platform. Believe it or not, it starts at the installation for most of my users. Outside of the use of FUD, these are the time proven tactics that M$ has used to squash competition and large scale innovation, and win support of the masses. What does everyone else think? I agree. We need a 'newbie' install option that makes all the technical decisions for you, as well as the other install options for those with more knowledge. Also, we could use a more 'user-friendly' way for the 'newbie' to install additional packages at a later date. An option to automagically install/download dependencies would be useful too - apologies if this is already in the newer releases; I am still on 7.0 until the weekend. Some Windoze applications have a 'basic' and 'expert' interface. The basic interface hides the complicated stuff from the user, but the expert interface still allows all functionality for the more experienced user. Another member of the group recommended taking out the repeated packages with similar functionality - I don't think that would work. There would be far too many holy wars re-started as to what is taken out. A better approach would be to more clearly indicate the pros and cons of the applications included, so that the user is better placed to make an informed decision as to what he wants. Just my $0.02 (Florida residents add 7% sales tax) Regards, Ozz. Keep in touch with http://mandrakeforum.com: Subscribe the "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" mailing list.
Re: [expert] LM 7.2 and beyond (part 2)
I sit on both edges of the OS fence (I use M$ aat work and Linux at home.) Unfortunately, I can not see giving most of the users I work with any linux packages at all. They would never get past the installations. Does this mean they are ignorant. Yep! But, you would not want me doing brain surgery either. Ignorant doesn't mean stupid but it often means they don't want to know :-) I agree with everything you say about needing to dumb-down Linux if it's going to replace Windows on home machines where the only support is the user. But let me ask you a question. How many of the people you work with could install Win 98 and get stuff like network connections, CDWriter operation and printer support functional without help? I think we sometime overstate the need for an auto-everything install for Linux as in most work environments there are support people who come running if Joe's MS Word won't load properly. We've bred a generation of people who are completely dependent upon tech support to keep the tool that is their livelyhood going. In that context, Linux is often easier for those tech people to maintain so whether the person sits looking at a Linux desktop behind their StarWriter window or W'98 with Word is largely a non-issue. I think LM should be working towards an "ignorant user" install option as well (I like the ideas in the previous message!). If you really want to I think you're right but it's a tough call what to include/exclude. The silly thing is that the first things the "ignorant" ones want to do is play music, games and connect to napster. I do believe that dumping the wide variety of interfaces would be a huge step forward. A simple "KDE vs Gnome/Enlightnement" option would make things much easier. Cheers --- Larry Keep in touch with http://mandrakeforum.com: Subscribe the "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" mailing list.
Re: [expert] LM 7.2 and beyond (part 2)
I agree. We need a 'newbie' install option that makes all the technical decisions for you, as well as the other install options for those with more knowledge. Do you view a RH installation as being this sort of installation? What about Corel? The problem I see with these installations is that if autodetection fails in any way, the user has no recourse. Also, we could use a more 'user-friendly' way for the 'newbie' to install additional packages at a later date. An option to automagically This is possible if you restrict your view to them actually buying them (or getting them) from a single place and restrict what applications you're talking about. It's easy to control installation if you're holding hte proprietary keys to setup/installation but given the nature of open source and the free range of application developers, you're asking a lot to generate standard installations. It might be nice if we could get the websites to better label whether this or that rpm requires compilation or not though. Another member of the group recommended taking out the repeated packages with similar functionality - I don't think that would work. There would be far too many holy wars re-started as to what is taken out. A better Agreed but the problem could be partially solved by presenting ONLY the KDE tool suite and/or GNOME suite. They could stick vi, vim, and emacs on the HD but not stick them on the menus. It gets downright overwhelming for a newbie to find no less than 8 basic editors and half a dozen formatting tools on his menu system when all he want to do is write a note. Cheers --- Larry Keep in touch with http://mandrakeforum.com: Subscribe the "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" mailing list.
Re: [expert] LM 7.2 and beyond (part 2)
On Fri, 20 Oct 2000 11:04:27 -0400 (EDT), Larry Marshall said: I think you're right but it's a tough call what to include/exclude. The silly thing is that the first things the "ignorant" ones want to do is play music, games and connect to napster. I do believe that dumping the wide variety of interfaces would be a huge step forward. A simple "KDE vs Gnome/Enlightnement" option would make things much easier. I kind of resent that Larry. smile I am one of those "ignorant" ones. Or at least I was. I came from Sinclair Basic (1981), through Commodore Basic, Microsoft/IBM Basic, Win 3.1, OS/2 v2.1, Warp 3, Warp 4, to Linux. Computer ignorant no, Linux ignorant, of course. But I am learning. With a lot of reading and help from some of you on these mailing lists. For which I am greatful. Not all of us have degrees in C++, Perl, etc. My biggest complaint is that the DOC files are written, of course, BY programmers but that they are written FOR programmers. I don't need to be spoon fed directions but to have to research every other word to decipher an instruction DOC is a task. The DOCs read like they are in foreign language. That would help many. I, personally, as an example, am having a problem getting diald (Dial-on Demand) to work. To me the DOCs don't tell me much. Stuff like if you want "something" do this, change this, etc. I am not sure what something is or if I need it or want it. Or where "this file" or "that file" is located. I have had help and suggestions from the lists but so far no luck. I won't give up. I might go crazy. ;-) But I won't give up. This little problem would probably drive most Windows users away. They have a "check-box" in their setup for auto dial. If they can find it. smile -- David Boles [EMAIL PROTECTED] Keep in touch with http://mandrakeforum.com: Subscribe the "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" mailing list.
Re: [expert] LM 7.2 and beyond (part 2)
I don't find the existing install that hard. If a ignorant user has enough space on the hard disk he or she could just go ahead and ignore all the geekoid stuff that somehow gets stuck on there unless you really pick and choose. There ought to be a warning, however, that choosing the simpleminded install will make linux the default bootup selection! : I think LM should be working towards an "ignorant user" install option as : well (I like the ideas in the previous message!). If you really want to : : I think you're right but it's a tough call what to include/exclude. The : silly thing is that the first things the "ignorant" ones want to do is : play music, games and connect to napster. I do believe that dumping the : wide variety of interfaces would be a huge step forward. A simple "KDE : vs Gnome/Enlightnement" option would make things much easier. : : Cheers --- Larry : : : : : Keep in touch with http://mandrakeforum.com: : Subscribe the "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" mailing list. : Keep in touch with http://mandrakeforum.com: Subscribe the "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" mailing list.
Re: [expert] LM 7.2 and beyond (part 2)
digiryde wrote: This is my opinion. I sit on both edges of the OS fence (I use M$ aat work and Linux at home.) Unfortunately, I can not see giving most of the users I work with any linux packages at all. They would never get past the installations. Does this mean they are ignorant. Yep! But, you would not want me doing brain surgery either. I think LM should be working towards an "ignorant user" install option as well (I like the ideas in the previous message!). If you really want to convince the companies of "proprietary products" that the platform is one they need to pay attention to, then we have to convince the general public of the value of Linux as well. That is never going to happen when they can not do the first 5% (installation) in relative ease and lack of thought. M$ has the right idea when it comes to that 95% of the market that is computer tech illiterate. They take away the choices. It keeps them (the user) from being overwhelmed. The whole point of this is that it would cater for users. Most people would NOT choose "custom/expert server" and be prompted with a choice of samba/dns/dhcp/sql etc, but a typical MCSE who hasn't might, and would find this much better than trying to find out what samba is useful for. To me, an "ignorant user" pacakge would come with a desktop or two to choose from at install time, but only one gets installed. Yeah - this flies in the face of what most of us want on our systems. But, before we are going to get the "masses" to use Linux/Un*x of any type, the confusion of installation (read too many choices) has to vanish. The installation package would also contain the mainstream "products" that are being used and agressively developed in the Linux/Un*x world. But, only one or two choices from each type, and GUI based. Embrace what has worked for M$ (ease of use up front, limited choices to the end user, ...) and extend it beyond their ability (Read stability, powere, etc in addition). I hate being forced to make money on M$ products, and would love to see M$ replaced with a sane platform. Believe it or not, it starts at the installation for most of my users. These users would choose "desktop" and be presented with the choice of office/web/email/productivity/multimedia/themes/games/. If someone can't realize what these are used for, they should consider whether they are capable of doing brain surgery or whatever it is they do (even being a secretary!). Most servers wouldn't have these installed, unless it's a "terminal server" which could even be another type of installation. I just made a detailed list of the kind of stuff I would like to see, since this is where I spend most of my time choosing packages (we run samba mostly, no NFS, no DNS, no DHCP, but do run SQL, apache.) Buchan Larry Marshall wrote: Keep all the packages up-to-date Probably not a popular opinion but it makes more sense to keep most of those packages one version behind the cutting edge in your official distributions. All you need to do is look at what's going on right now with RH7.0 to see that being on the edge can spell lots of trouble. If you're going after the Windows user you can't have things crashing and being incompatible as they just aren't going to buy into the "download this and compile" model. [snipping my own drivel ...] -- |--| Buchan MilneMechanical Engineer, Network Manager Cellphone +27824722231 email mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Centre for Automotive Engineering http://www.cae.co.za South Africas first satellite:http://sunsat.ee.sun.ac.za Control Models http://www.control.co.za |Registered Linux User #182071-| Keep in touch with http://mandrakeforum.com: Subscribe the "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" mailing list.
Re: [expert] LM 7.2 and beyond (part 2)
I agree. We need a 'newbie' install option that makes all the technical decisions for you, as well as the other install options for those with more knowledge. Do you view a RH installation as being this sort of installation? What about Corel? The problem I see with these installations is that if autodetection fails in any way, the user has no recourse. That is a difficult area for me to comment on, as I haven't installed RedHat since 5.1, and I have never used Corel. The only other distros I've played with are SlackWare UMSDOS and TurboLinux. Also, we could use a more 'user-friendly' way for the 'newbie' to install additional packages at a later date. An option to automagically This is possible if you restrict your view to them actually buying them (or getting them) from a single place and restrict what applications you're talking about. It's easy to control installation if you're holding hte proprietary keys to setup/installation but given the nature of open source and the free range of application developers, you're asking a lot to generate standard installations. It might be nice if we could get the websites to better label whether this or that rpm requires compilation or not though. RPM already checks for dependency issues. Surely it's not that great a step for it to check your CD or the ftp site for your distro to find the Another member of the group recommended taking out the repeated packages with similar functionality - I don't think that would work. There would be far too many holy wars re-started as to what is taken out. A better Agreed but the problem could be partially solved by presenting ONLY the KDE tool suite and/or GNOME suite. They could stick vi, vim, and emacs on the HD but not stick them on the menus. It gets downright overwhelming for a newbie to find no less than 8 basic editors and half a dozen formatting tools on his menu system when all he want to do is write a note. That is fine if the user has sackloads of hard disk space. Many don't - especially newbies who are trying it out on a dual-boot Windoze machine, or on a laptop. For example, I only have a 6Gb drive on this laptop, and need 4Gb of that for Windoze - and that is way too tight; it's nearly all gone. Out of the remaining 2Gb, once I take out the suspend partition and Linux Swap, I'm down to 1.7Gb. A full 7.0 installation, plus StarOffice 5.2 and I'm almost out - and that's before the data... Better descriptions of the individual packages would help. These don't need to be long, just to the point. For example, "vi - small, no frills, powerful but steep learning curve", "pico - similar to DOS Edit", "Emacs - best suited to those with ten fingers on each hand", etc. Regards, Ozz. Keep in touch with http://mandrakeforum.com: Subscribe the "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" mailing list.
Re: [expert] LM 7.2 and beyond (part 2)
That is a difficult area for me to comment on, as I haven't installed RedHat since 5.1, and I have never used Corel. The only other distros I've played with are SlackWare UMSDOS and TurboLinux. The reason I ask is that Corel's installation asks almost no questions except for basic password stuff. The result is that their installer breaks often during installations. RedHat's installer lets you test video and such and works quite well but it doesn't ask many questions either unless you go into expert mode. A bit of new input on this, I just installed SuSE7.0 on a machine. It's got some nice additions to the installer regime while also keeping things really simple. It seemed to autodetect all my hardware except for my ethernet card. It does let you intervene if it's detected wrong (a good idea in my view) but simply agreeing that it's detected your hardware properly, you can just press Next and move on. They've added a really nice feature that gives you two sets of onscreen arrow keys that let you adjust the size and orientation of your video. I thought it was a nice touch. They also seem to have a new user guide to Linux as an online tutorial. Haven't looked at the contents of this but it seems like a good idea. That is fine if the user has sackloads of hard disk space. Many don't - Good point. especially newbies who are trying it out on a dual-boot Windoze machine, or on a laptop. For example, I only have a 6Gb drive on this laptop, and need 4Gb of that for Windoze - and that is way too tight; it's nearly all gone. The problem I see with delivering stripped down version of Linux is that very quickly a user is going to read about some application, download it, and find that it's not "compatible" with their installation because they don't have this or that. Unix has always been a building block system and without a whole bunch of blocks available, one will surely be missing when new software is installed. I do think that it's silly to be providing, by default, things like Star Office, AbiWord, Word Perfect, etc. If that stuff is on the CDs that's great but they should be things you ADD to your normal 'newbie' installation, not something you have to remove as an 'expert' installer. Out of the remaining 2Gb, once I take out the suspend partition and Linux Swap, I'm down to 1.7Gb. A full 7.0 installation, plus StarOffice 5.2 and I'm almost out - and that's before the data... Data...no time for data creation :-) Better descriptions of the individual packages would help. These don't need to be long, just to the point. For example, "vi - small, no frills, powerful but steep learning curve", "pico - similar to DOS Edit", "Emacs - I agree but let's look at those examples. A newbie looks at this and says, "Yuck, I don't want any of those editors; I want Word Perfect." If you leave those out you might as well leave Pine out (some might argue that's a good idea too). But what does the newbie do, after he's done all this with the view that he does his editing with WP and he needs to add a line to fstab? What's he do if he loses his X installation? What's he do if he edits rc.sysinit and saves it as a Word Perfect file (grin)? I'm not really arguing that you're wrong but I am suggesting that excluding a lot of this stuff is a tough call, especially for the uninitiated. Cheers --- Larry Keep in touch with http://mandrakeforum.com: Subscribe the "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" mailing list.
Re: [expert] LM 7.2 and beyond (part 2)
The reason I ask is that Corel's installation asks almost no questions except for basic password stuff. The result is that their installer breaks often during installations. RedHat's installer lets you test video and such and works quite well but it doesn't ask many questions either unless you go into expert mode. I seem to recall that RedHat 5.1 was very hard to install on my laptop... A bit of new input on this, I just installed SuSE7.0 on a machine. It's got some nice additions to the installer regime while also keeping things really simple. It seemed to autodetect all my hardware except for my ethernet card. It does let you intervene if it's detected wrong (a good idea in my view) but simply agreeing that it's detected your hardware properly, you can just press Next and move on. They've added a really nice feature that gives you two sets of onscreen arrow keys that let you adjust the size and orientation of your video. I thought it was a nice touch. They also seem to have a new user guide to Linux as an online tutorial. Haven't looked at the contents of this but it seems like a good idea. I have no experience of SuSE, but I have heard some good reports. As and when my old pentium arrives from the UK (I recently emigrated to the USA, and I'm still having kit shipped over) I might give it a try. The problem I see with delivering stripped down version of Linux is that very quickly a user is going to read about some application, download it, and find that it's not "compatible" with their installation because they don't have this or that. Unix has always been a building block system and without a whole bunch of blocks available, one will surely be missing when new software is installed. However, if the updating proggie (in the Windoze world, 'add/remove programs') were to check the dependencies and either automagically install them at the same time, or download them from the relevent web site, then that problem would be solved. I hate to compare Linux to Windoze (in general Linux rocks, Windoze quivers) but the 'add/remove programs' bit will automagically tell you if you need additional stuff in order to run an application (albeit only stuff on their CD) and will automagically install it for you at the same time. The same goes for the Windoze Update facility that upgrades/adds applications over the Internet. If Billy Gates can do it, I'm sure the geniuses (genii?) behind the various Linux distros can do it too... I do think that it's silly to be providing, by default, things like Star Office, AbiWord, Word Perfect, etc. If that stuff is on the CDs that's great but they should be things you ADD to your normal 'newbie' installation, not something you have to remove as an 'expert' installer. I agree. Out of the remaining 2Gb, once I take out the suspend partition and Linux Swap, I'm down to 1.7Gb. A full 7.0 installation, plus StarOffice 5.2 and I'm almost out - and that's before the data... Data...no time for data creation :-) About the only thing I've had time for recently in Linux is to search for E.T.'s phone call... Better descriptions of the individual packages would help. These don't need to be long, just to the point. For example, "vi - small, no frills, powerful but steep learning curve", "pico - similar to DOS Edit", "Emacs - I agree but let's look at those examples. A newbie looks at this and says, "Yuck, I don't want any of those editors; I want Word Perfect." If you leave those out you might as well leave Pine out (some might argue that's a good idea too). But what does the newbie do, after he's done all this with the view that he does his editing with WP and he needs to add a line to fstab? What's he do if he loses his X installation? What's he do if he edits rc.sysinit and saves it as a Word Perfect file (grin)? My list above was not intended to be exclusive - I used those purely as an example. However, I agree with your points. There would need to be a note to inform the user that as well as the bells and whistles GUI word processor, he needs a basic non-GUI editor in case the pod bay doors won't open... I'm not really arguing that you're wrong but I am suggesting that excluding a lot of this stuff is a tough call, especially for the uninitiated. You are quite right. I have only really played with Linux so far. I set up a fax server on SlackWare UMSDOS a couple of years ago, and then started playing again about a year ago. I am fairly strong on computers in general, but pretty new to Linux. I find package selection very daunting, as I don't have a clue what most of them do... That is why I believe that the installer/updater is more user-friendly, both for newbies who don't always know what they want, and for experts who know exactly what they want, but don't want to spend all day selecting/deselecting packages... Regards, Ozz. Keep in touch with http://mandrakeforum.com: Subscribe the "[EMAIL
Re: [expert] LM 7.2 and beyond (part 2)
On Fri, 20 Oct 2000 23:39:23 Austin L. Denyer wrote:
I hate to compare Linux to Windoze (in general Linux rocks, Windoze quivers)
but the 'add/remove programs' bit will automagically tell you if you need
additional stuff in order to run an application (albeit only stuff on their
CD) and will automagically install it for you at the same time. The same
goes for the Windoze Update facility that upgrades/adds applications over
the Internet. If Billy Gates can do it, I'm sure the geniuses (genii?)
behind the various Linux distros can do it too...
I heavily disagree on that. One of the nice features of linux is that one
can almost know in what spents each byte on the disk. Look at one other thread
in this list, one about /var/log full of .x.gz files. People notices that.
Suppose a server in which the admin logs remotely. It has just the basic X
installed. (S)He decides that needs a GUI editor (to be used remotely).
Looks for one, sees gEdit (or kedit), and ends up ('automagically') with the
disk plenty of gnome (or kde) stuff (s)he didn't really neded (just try
xedit, or something just plain gtk).
And think in people outside USA. There internet connection (local calls) are
free. In Spain, for example, you can't say 'ok, spent this night downloading
StarOffice updates' @ not-sustained-50kbits (if you are lucky) and
@ nearly 1$/hour.
If linuxes start to auto-install thins very heavily, you will end with an
ILoveYou.rpm wandering over the net (rpm runs suid).
I'm just very happy with the actual way, use rpm or any graphical front end,
and look at the dependecies and decide if you want all that extra stuff or
look for another thing. If you need extra stuff, download and save it (for
the bad luck of a system crash, you don't need to download it again). That
is one of the things I don't like of MandrakeUpdate. It wipes the new rpms
that just installed.
My point of view it that if you can learn what a control panel is, where
is "My programs" and where is the menu in Word to insert a table, you also can
learn what is an rpm, what is a dependency and what is a kernel module.
--
Juan Antonio Magallon Lacarta mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Keep in touch with http://mandrakeforum.com:
Subscribe the "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" mailing list.
Re: [expert] LM 7.2 and beyond (part 2)
I hate to compare Linux to Windoze (in general Linux rocks, Windoze quivers) but the 'add/remove programs' bit will automagically tell you if you need additional stuff in order to run an application (albeit only stuff on their CD) and will automagically install it for you at the same time. The same goes for the Windoze Update facility that upgrades/adds applications over the Internet. If Billy Gates can do it, I'm sure the geniuses (genii?) behind the various Linux distros can do it too... I think you're missing one very basic distinction between the Windoze world and the Linux world (and thus the breadth of the problem of auto-installation). Microsoft developed a SINGLE platform to which all programs must be written. If they don't, they don't install and they don't run...period. It's pretty easy to guard the gate when it's that narrow. Even so, your suggestion that MS has solved the dependency problem with their add/remove function is simply not the case and anyone who's found themselves reinstalling the OS after removing applications will attest to that. Linux, on the other hand has done no such thing. There is a kernel and on top of that are several software platorms and software is written for any of them. This is what creates the problems of dependencies in the first place. If you want to take KDE and imbed it in the kernel (a really lousy idea) we can eliminate all this need for thinking when installing programs. Otherwise, you're going to have to worry about whether the right stuff is available to run the program you're installing. Cheers --- Larry Keep in touch with http://mandrakeforum.com: Subscribe the "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" mailing list.
Re: [expert] LM 7.2 and beyond (part 2)
It seems to me that there are several levels of Linux User installation being talked about. It is important then to know at whom we are aiming the system. Target Marketing - works wonders ;-) See is you agree with me, or set me straight. The different users would look like (and the most likely percentage of current computer users): *** This is my Gut feeling. .5% Guru - If the guru does not know the answer, normally, nobody does. 2% Advanced user - Can handle all day to day issues, plan, build and develop systems. Rarely needs reference material anymore. 5% Intermediate user - Can handle day to day issues, plan simple builds, but not ready to develop systems. 10% Beginning user - Can get into most "normal" applications and get their own work done. Has almost no idea about how it all works. 83.5% Newbie - Just installed Linux. Has no idea what to do next. Clicks on things and gets lost. I would envision an installation database tracking packages in "standard" installations (Firewall, Web Server, Mail Server, Developer Station, ...), and relating them to different users "abilities". Kind of like this... G = Guru, A = Advanced, I = Intermediate, B = Beginner, N = Newbie + = Install - = no install ? = Give option ** the next several lines need a mono-spaced font *** Install Type - Web | Firewall | Development | Workstation | Office Use | Personal | Gamer | User Type Package Apache +GAIBN | ?GA-IBN | ?GAI-BN ||||| SendMail ?GA+IBN | ?GA-IBN | ?GA+IBN ||||| vi ||||||| This matrix would then allow a user to select what they think they are based on something like the above (but better) definition, then to select what kind of installation they want to do. The Guru level would basically get the option on everything, and be able to see all packages, whereas the Newbie would get only the most uncomplicated stuff (read GUI or very simple shell.) The Guru's system would setup with Root login as normal. The Newbie's system would set up with all kinds of warnings (Are you sure? type stuff). The Guru's system would have normal direct access to the raw configurations of the system. The Newbie's system would wrap everything it could in "control panels" and leave the rest out. The Guru's system would have all directories wide open to the local user (normal). The Newbie's system would not have /etc or other *important* directories visible. (Please forgive me if this does not seem well thought out, it has been a 70+ hour week already, and the weekend still looms!) But, this is the kind of definitions I have to think about when I device systems of systems. To me it makes sense to go in that direction. It allows us all to contribute feedback that can be applied. It allows us to make use of the complaints we read about, and potentially restrict certain packages/ configurations to users who deem themselves more advanced. I think I will end my ramblings here. What does everyone else think? Keep in touch with http://mandrakeforum.com: Subscribe the "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" mailing list.
Re: [expert] LM 7.2 and beyond (part 2)
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: package selection during install is too much work to do. Absolutely IMHO, it would be wonderful to do it on the www site BEFORE installing, something like this: 1) You get the package list from the site, and study it at your leisure, figuring out what you really need 2) On the WWW site, maybe in several sessions, you select the packages you choose, and 3) some CGI interface to RPM checks the dependencies saying "you should either add this or take that out". It shoud also tell you exactly how much HD space will be needed. Repeat steps 2 and 3 as many times as needed, maybe going back to the site the day after, until all dependencies are sorted out. 4) When the list is clean, it should be possible to save it on a floppy, so that 5) When you actually install, and must select packages you can just put the floppy in, and the installation program will install all and only those packages. (this is going to be though on laptops not having CDROm and FLOPPY useable together. Ah, well) Last but not least, all this should be possible also after installation. By this I mean that one installs, figures out in some weeks or months what he actually needs, and then, with the list said above, reconfigures everything with one keystroke, not running kpackage/rpm N times. Final note on point 2):at least in the first selection, one should have to select ONLY the **applications** (apache,window maker, perl, emacs...) not all the libraries they need, of which most people know nothing and care even less as long as the thing works. Just my two cents, Marco Fioretti Keep in touch with http://mandrakeforum.com: Subscribe the "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" mailing list.
[expert] LM 7.2 and beyond (part 2)
LM 7.2 and beyond (part 2) (http://forum.mandrakesoft.com/article.php3?sid=20001019091828) Two days ago I asked your opinions about linux: where we are, what is good, what is bad, where should we go etc. Well, I got what I asked for: 71 answer so far. I'll try to summarize what You said so far, as a base for further discussion: First there were people who are basically asking to do exactly what we did so far: Keep all the packages up-to-date Add cool new programs to distro get rid of junk progs (WE NEED YOUR HELP HERE!) Offer our judgement on which programs should be installed, but let the user have the last word. Make instalation and usage easier Support more hardware Fix the bugs, close security holes Improve documentation Make servers easier to use too, not only Desktop machines (we just started doing this) Then there were people asking better support for particular class of devices or better integration of particular programs: Faxing USB, DVD, scanners, digital cameras other PDA-s (Psion) nettalk support wine configuration. There was some (rather light) cryticism of several points: bad ISDN support (this should be fixed in 7.2) neglecting the FAX software not uniform enough Too many programs doing the same thing Config programs do not tell you what they do. package selection during install is too much work to do. Some people wanted us to do impossible things like offering some commercial programs for free, solving DVD support problem (folks, this is political, not technical problem. We can not do much here, it is something you should do!), or basing the distro on closed-source code Others were asking for already existing features, or for features we just introduced in 7.2. I'll make sure to inform you better in the future... And finaly, there were few people who offered completely new ideas on what to do: Sell merchantising Pay someone to make some good UNICODE fonts Publish upgrade-packs instead of new distros. I hope I didn't forget anything important. If I did, please tell me and I will update this page. I intend to use it as a reference in further discussion. Keep in touch with http://mandrakeforum.com: Subscribe the "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" mailing list.
Re: [expert] LM 7.2 and beyond (part 2)
Publish upgrade-packs instead of new distros. This is probably one of the most important. What I (and I would think a lot of other users) need is an easier upgrade path. That is, one that doesn't require blowing away the previous installation and config files. Let's face it, even Micro$oft managed that (they just blow away every other operating system on one's machine in the process!) #;-D Regards, Ozz. Keep in touch with http://mandrakeforum.com: Subscribe the "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" mailing list.
Re: [expert] LM 7.2 and beyond (part 2)
On Thu, Oct 19, 2000 at 09:18:29AM -0700, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: LM 7.2 and beyond (part 2) (http://forum.mandrakesoft.com/article.php3?sid=20001019091828) Two days ago I asked your opinions about linux: where we are, what is good, what is bad, where should we go etc. Well, I got what I asked for: 71 answer so far. I'll try to summarize what You said so far, as a base for further discussion: Config programs do not tell you what they do. package selection during install is too much work to do. Let me add something here. Currently I believe Mandrake offers a server install and a desktop install (I haven't tried a 7.x installation, so I don't know). Fine as far as they go, but how about adding, possibly as a subset of the server install, a router/firewall install? This would add the appropriate software, e.g. IP chains tools, at install time. It would also tweak most config files, e.g. /etc/smb.config so that the computer's services were a) only visible on the lan(s) inside the firewall, b) visible to the Internet as well, depending on the user's choice at install time. This last requirment means a fair amount of sed/awk or perl work, so I don't know how feasible it is. In short, the router installation is up and running as a router, and secure, from the installation. Some people wanted us to do impossible things like offering some commercial programs for free, solving DVD support problem (folks, this is political, not technical problem. We can not do much here, it is something you should do!), or basing the distro on closed-source code Some people apparently don't know what we're doing here. :-) -- -- C^2 No windows were crashed in the making of this email. Looking for fine software and/or web pages? http://w3.trib.com/~ccurley PGP signature
Re: [expert] LM 7.2 and beyond (part 2)
This is probably one of the most important. What I (and I would think a lot of other users) need is an easier upgrade path. That is, one that doesn't require blowing away the previous installation and config files. Let's face it, even Micro$oft managed that (they just blow away every other operating system on one's machine in the process!) Uhm...that already exists doesn't it? I've upgraded from 7.0-7.1 without losing any of my setup. I've also done the upgrade from 7.1-7.2beta on one of my non-work computers. Where's the problem? Microsoft has managed to have an "upgrade" because they want to make you pay more money for an upgrade. What they provide is a new installation that looks to see if you have an old one (and thus can pay the lower price of the upgrade). But when you go from W'95-W'98 you overwrite the registry completely and they rearrange the directory structure sufficiently that you end up having to reinstall most third party applications. Keep in touch with http://mandrakeforum.com: Subscribe the "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" mailing list.
Re: [expert] LM 7.2 and beyond (part 2)
Absolutely! Jeff Malka [EMAIL PROTECTED] Registered Linux user 183185 - Original Message - From: Austin L. Denyer [EMAIL PROTECTED] This is probably one of the most important. What I (and I would think a lot of other users) need is an easier upgrade path. That is, one that doesn't require blowing away the previous installation and config files. Let's face it, even Micro$oft managed that (they just blow away every other operating system on one's machine in the process!) Keep in touch with http://mandrakeforum.com: Subscribe the "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" mailing list.
Re: [expert] LM 7.2 and beyond (part 2)
Keep all the packages up-to-date Probably not a popular opinion but it makes more sense to keep most of those packages one version behind the cutting edge in your official distributions. All you need to do is look at what's going on right now with RH7.0 to see that being on the edge can spell lots of trouble. If you're going after the Windows user you can't have things crashing and being incompatible as they just aren't going to buy into the "download this and compile" model. Add cool new programs to distro Here there's a tradeoff between what the computer geek wants and what you want to support. Most computer users aren't going to understand that a lot of these programs aren't supported since you're the guys distributing them. get rid of junk progs (WE NEED YOUR HELP HERE!) You know what I think? I think you need to change the way you divide up the installation options. You're doing a really good job of letting experts select what they want installed. You do nothing to allow non-computer saavy people to do this. v7.2 seems to even drop the "normal/developer" option from the basic installation. In one way that makes sense why can't a less-than-expert person decide whether they want games on their machine or not? Make instalation and usage easier Lots of stuff that could be discussed here but it seems that with 7.2 you're moving in the right direction. Support more hardware Adding CUPS and gimp-print as install options is a significant step forward in my view. Being able to set up adsl is nice too. What's REALLY lacking in Linux right now in terms of device support is the lowly, everyone's got one, non-scsi scanner. I've had several people get completely turned off to the idea of Linux when they find their scanner isn't supported and these have been people who seem to understand the problems with winmodem and are willing to buy a new modem. Improve documentation In my view the LM manuals are among the best I've seen. From both a marketing and user satisfaction point of view, however, you probably need to make better distinctions between software you're including that other people must document and the stuff you're supplying that's truly Mandrake-supported software. For the first category, it would be nice if some web pointers were provided to get that support. Faxing USB, DVD, scanners, digital cameras gPhoto does a pretty good job for most digital cameras. I noticed that it's part of 7.2. Sure would like that scanner support though. wine configuration. This would be nice but at some point, probably soon, the Linux community is going to have to decide whether they're going to promote the creation of Franken-windows ports or true ports of popular software. not uniform enough One of the things I find "odd" about the Linux community in general is that application installation isn't standardized. The notion of paths and things like /usr/local/bin were designed into UNIX to permit a standard installation of application software such that people wouldn't have to go chasing all over the place looking for applications. The /usr/local concept also allowed installation of apps on a separate partition so that clean installations of the OS could be done (including partition reformatting) without destroying those app installations. What we see in the Linux world is that an rpm installation often dumps the app into /usr/bin or worse into its own directory that isn't part of the standard path (eg - Acrobat rpms put acroread into /usr/local/Acrobat4.0. I doubt you have control of that much but this stuff needs to be standardized if rpms are going to be the mechanisms by which we install software. Too many programs doing the same thing Certainly true and a result of the geek approach and richness of the Linux world. But the "Do we drop kedit, emacs, xemacs, vi or vim?" sorts of questions aren't ones I'd want to answer. Better up front choice ability is probably a better solution. Config programs do not tell you what they do. In attempting to answer questions in [newbie] I find that GUI tools are a double-edged sword. People want to use them because they don't know how to do simple edits in the config files. But this leaves them as ignorant of what's going on as Windows users are. Sometimes this makes them happy; sometimes this leaves them confused. It might be useful to figure out what it is that's confusing them and fix that rather than dealing with trying to educate them. One example that comes to mind is the use of those config tools to edit fstab. You can do it and it even works sometimes :-) But let's suppose a person wants to change the name of their Windows partition from win_c to primitive. They jump into their GUI tool and change the name. Then they come to [newbie] asking "I changed the name of my Windows partition from win_c to primitive. Primitive seems to work but win_c still exists but none of the files are in it any
Re: [expert] LM 7.2 and beyond (part 2)
Uhm...that already exists doesn't it? I've upgraded from 7.0-7.1 without losing any of my setup. I've also done the upgrade from 7.1-7.2beta on one of my non-work computers. Where's the problem? I've not tried the latest releases, but upgrading 6.5 to 7.0 didn't work - I had to totally re-install. Microsoft has managed to have an "upgrade" because they want to make you pay more money for an upgrade. What they provide is a new installation that looks to see if you have an old one (and thus can pay the lower price of the upgrade). But when you go from W'95-W'98 you overwrite the registry completely and they rearrange the directory structure sufficiently that you end up having to reinstall most third party applications. Interesting - I've upgraded LOADS of machines from 95 to 98, and NEVER had any problems! Oh well. Regards, Ozz. Keep in touch with http://mandrakeforum.com: Subscribe the "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" mailing list.
