Re: [expert] Mandrake RPM updates
This is probably a difficult ask. But what I would like to see
is a longer time between versions (eg. 12+ months) for the regular
desktop edition, and a simple, reliable method for updating
packages in the meantime for those who want to (for all those
things that don't qualify for Mandrake's Update facility).
I often grab things from cooker - generally source RPMs - to
install myself. But as time goes by, depencancy issues and library
incompatibilities increase until I give up and simply wait for the
next Mandrake upgrade. It would be nice if this was different.
I'm not really expecting all this to happen, but at least I have
got it off my chest.
Brian.
From: Vincent Danen [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [expert] Mandrake RPM updates
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2003 10:44:32 -0700
On Fri Feb 07, 2003 at 02:14:34PM +0800, Franki wrote:
I totally agree.. Vincent made a statement that mdk was a desktop OS..
and
that as such had no obligations to be a server..
Having said that, Corporate Server 2.1 is now available, and it is a
server OS. The support timeframe will likely be 3-4 years, possibly
more. I'm not 100% sure on this yet (not my call).
I understand doing updates yourself is a bore and PITA (oh boy do I
know!), and reinstalling a server every 18mos is also a nuisance.
Corporate Server will alleviate this. It will have 12-18mos between
versions, so will be a much slower pace than the main distrib (Mandrake
Linux), and should certainly meet your needs.
There is a PR on the mandrakesoft.com website about it; I don't have
the URL handy at the moment.
--
MandrakeSoft Security; http://www.mandrakesecure.net/
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Re: [expert] Mandrake RPM updates
On Fri Feb 07, 2003 at 02:14:34PM +0800, Franki wrote:
I totally agree.. Vincent made a statement that mdk was a desktop OS.. and
that as such had no obligations to be a server..
Having said that, Corporate Server 2.1 is now available, and it is a
server OS. The support timeframe will likely be 3-4 years, possibly
more. I'm not 100% sure on this yet (not my call).
I understand doing updates yourself is a bore and PITA (oh boy do I
know!), and reinstalling a server every 18mos is also a nuisance.
Corporate Server will alleviate this. It will have 12-18mos between
versions, so will be a much slower pace than the main distrib (Mandrake
Linux), and should certainly meet your needs.
There is a PR on the mandrakesoft.com website about it; I don't have
the URL handy at the moment.
--
MandrakeSoft Security; http://www.mandrakesecure.net/
lynx -source http://linsec.ca/vdanen.asc | gpg --import
{FE6F2AFD : 88D8 0D23 8D4B 3407 5BD7 66F9 2043 D0E5 FE6F 2AFD}
msg65727/pgp0.pgp
Description: PGP signature
Re: [expert] Mandrake RPM updates
On Fri, Feb 07, 2003 at 10:44 -0700, Vincent Danen wrote: There is a PR on the mandrakesoft.com website about it; I don't have the URL handy at the moment. May I help: The announcement is available at http://www.mandrakesoft.com/company/press/briefs?n=/mandrakesoft/news/2409 (Beware of line breaks!) More information on the product itself is available at http://www.mandrakesoft.com/products/corporate-server wobo -- If you don't understand or are scared by any of the above ask your parents or an adult to help you. Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] Mandrake RPM updates
On Fri Feb 07, 2003 at 07:22:34PM +0100, Wolfgang Bornath wrote:
There is a PR on the mandrakesoft.com website about it; I don't have
the URL handy at the moment.
May I help:
The announcement is available at
http://www.mandrakesoft.com/company/press/briefs?n=/mandrakesoft/news/2409
(Beware of line breaks!)
More information on the product itself is available at
http://www.mandrakesoft.com/products/corporate-server
Awesome... thanks, wobo.
--
MandrakeSoft Security; http://www.mandrakesecure.net/
lynx -source http://linsec.ca/vdanen.asc | gpg --import
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RE: [expert] Mandrake RPM updates
I could find no download for CS2.1, so I assume its purchase only???
I don't mind them paying for it, but I'd like to try it out first...
See basically, I don't need wizards and GUI stuff for the most part..
I have my standard config files.. which once I have installed a system, I
copy them accross
and my server is almost done..
To have to pay for support I'd very likely never use is abit rough..
(I bought a powerpack and never used the support portion of that either.)
I just want a basic system with the server apps, and updates for what is
installed..
chroot all around would be good, but apart from that, there isn't much else
I need.
Just to support mandrake, I would make the boss buy at least one copy, but
I'd have to try it
before we outlayed the cash.. if it isn't want I want, then no deal...
anyone in my position would
feel the same way.
I am worried that I'd have compilation issues with stuff I load, wondering
what is different between it and other packages.
wondering how compatable it is with other mandrake rpms... that sort of
stuff..
Also how it handles hardware raid, scsi drives stuff like that..
what is the word on this? i have not even seen a list of the kernel and
package version..
Do you have any info to pass on??
Is CS2.1 the first mandrake to NOT be free software??? I ask because there
is no download version...
rgds
Franki
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Vincent Danen
Sent: Saturday, 8 February 2003 1:45 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [expert] Mandrake RPM updates
On Fri Feb 07, 2003 at 02:14:34PM +0800, Franki wrote:
I totally agree.. Vincent made a statement that mdk was a desktop OS.. and
that as such had no obligations to be a server..
Having said that, Corporate Server 2.1 is now available, and it is a
server OS. The support timeframe will likely be 3-4 years, possibly
more. I'm not 100% sure on this yet (not my call).
I understand doing updates yourself is a bore and PITA (oh boy do I
know!), and reinstalling a server every 18mos is also a nuisance.
Corporate Server will alleviate this. It will have 12-18mos between
versions, so will be a much slower pace than the main distrib (Mandrake
Linux), and should certainly meet your needs.
There is a PR on the mandrakesoft.com website about it; I don't have
the URL handy at the moment.
--
MandrakeSoft Security; http://www.mandrakesecure.net/
lynx -source http://linsec.ca/vdanen.asc | gpg --import
{FE6F2AFD : 88D8 0D23 8D4B 3407 5BD7 66F9 2043 D0E5 FE6F 2AFD}
Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft?
Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] Mandrake RPM updates
On Fri, Feb 07, 2003 at 11:34 -0700, Vincent Danen wrote: On Fri Feb 07, 2003 at 07:22:34PM +0100, Wolfgang Bornath wrote: The announcement is available at http://www.mandrakesoft.com/company/press/briefs?n=/mandrakesoft/news/2409 (Beware of line breaks!) More information on the product itself is available at http://www.mandrakesoft.com/products/corporate-server Awesome... thanks, wobo. Oh, it's not so hard to do, you know? Just hop over to the Mandrake Website, see the newsflash right before your eyes and hit the link. There are people whose job it is to provide this for the benefit of the Mandrake users. (Hint, hint!) ;) wobo -- If you don't understand or are scared by any of the above ask your parents or an adult to help you. Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] Mandrake RPM updates
On Friday 07 February 2003 01:44 pm, Wolfgang Bornath wrote: On Fri, Feb 07, 2003 at 11:34 -0700, Vincent Danen wrote: On Fri Feb 07, 2003 at 07:22:34PM +0100, Wolfgang Bornath wrote: The announcement is available at http://www.mandrakesoft.com/company/press/briefs?n=/mandrakesoft/news/2 409 (Beware of line breaks!) More information on the product itself is available at http://www.mandrakesoft.com/products/corporate-server Awesome... thanks, wobo. Oh, it's not so hard to do, you know? Just hop over to the Mandrake Website, see the newsflash right before your eyes and hit the link. There are people whose job it is to provide this for the benefit of the Mandrake users. (Hint, hint!) ;) wobo wooo wobo Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] Mandrake RPM updates
On Sat, Feb 08, 2003 at 03:10 +0800, Franki wrote: I could find no download for CS2.1, so I assume its purchase only??? Yes, read the announcement. I don't mind them paying for it, but I'd like to try it out first... See basically, I don't need wizards and GUI stuff for the most part.. It's not about wizards, it's a corporate server pack. I have my standard config files.. which once I have installed a system, I copy them accross and my server is almost done.. To have to pay for support I'd very likely never use is abit rough.. (I bought a powerpack and never used the support portion of that either.) I just want a basic system with the server apps, and updates for what is installed.. So you don't need the Corporate Server. Buy the ProSuite. The Corporate Server is a package consisting of the software, the support and the access to updates and the much longer support lifetime. Just to support mandrake, I would make the boss buy at least one copy, but I'd have to try it before we outlayed the cash.. if it isn't want I want, then no deal... anyone in my position would feel the same way. It's based on the current version of Mandrake Linux. Look at the website for more information (I posted the addresses). what is the word on this? i have not even seen a list of the kernel and package version.. Because you haven't looked for it. It's on the website http://www.mandrakesoft.com/products/corporate-server Is CS2.1 the first mandrake to NOT be free software??? I ask because there is no download version... You don't understand. Mandrake Linux GPL version is the base system. It's free and downloadable. All other products also consist of a mixture of Free Software and commercial apps (PowerPack, ProSuite, Corporate Server). If you define Free Software by the question whether you can download it or not you should have a look at the GPL and some more documents about Free Software and the GPL. According to your definition the PowerPack and ProSuite are also not free because you cannot download them. wobo -- If you don't understand or are scared by any of the above ask your parents or an adult to help you. Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] Mandrake RPM updates
On Friday 07 February 2003 10:10 am, Franki wrote: I could find no download for CS2.1, so I assume its purchase only??? I don't mind them paying for it, but I'd like to try it out first... You have done that, by trying out Mandrake's offerings. The most stable are chosen and put together with wizards to aim at the W2K market with its ranks of point-and-click sysadmins. Since W2K is destined for the trash heap in January, this is a good time to announce and give people a chance to strategize a switch. See basically, I don't need wizards and GUI stuff for the most part.. I have my standard config files.. which once I have installed a system, I copy them accross and my server is almost done.. Well then, you can get what you need from a ProSuite that uses the same packages, and then just follow the security updates. To have to pay for support I'd very likely never use is abit rough.. (I bought a powerpack and never used the support portion of that either.) I just want a basic system with the server apps, and updates for what is installed.. chroot all around would be good, but apart from that, there isn't much else I need. Just to support mandrake, I would make the boss buy at least one copy, but I'd have to try it before we outlayed the cash.. if it isn't want I want, then no deal... anyone in my position would feel the same way. I am worried that I'd have compilation issues with stuff I load, wondering what is different between it and other packages. wondering how compatable it is with other mandrake rpms... that sort of stuff.. Also how it handles hardware raid, scsi drives stuff like that.. Well, those issues have been covered--this is proven software from Mandrake releases, not something new and improved. what is the word on this? i have not even seen a list of the kernel and package version.. Kernel 2.4 Do you have any info to pass on?? Is CS2.1 the first mandrake to NOT be free software??? I ask because there is no download version... It is a mix like most sale packages, and it doesn't change the fact that most of the packages appeared in one or more download editions (with the exception of the wizards) rgds Franki Civileme Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] Mandrake RPM updates
This time civileme [EMAIL PROTECTED] becomes daring and writes: On Friday 07 February 2003 10:10 am, Franki wrote: I could find no download for CS2.1, so I assume its purchase only??? I don't mind them paying for it, but I'd like to try it out first... You have done that, by trying out Mandrake's offerings. The most stable are chosen and put together with wizards to aim at the W2K market with its ranks of point-and-click sysadmins. Since W2K is destined for the trash heap in January, this is a good time to announce and give people a chance to strategize a switch. Since it seems like comparisons with debian are in vogue lately in the mdk community, here goes another one :) cooker = unstable mandrake linux = testing corporate server = stable With cooker you are in the bleeding edge and hunt the bugs. Changes hourly. With mandrake linux, you get a very usable system for all desktops and small servers, and get to hunt the non-critical bugs left. Changes every 6 months, bugfixes between. With corporate server you get the rock-stable box for a monster critical server, no/extremely few bugs. Change every couple of years, bugfixes between. What do you think about that? :) Vox -- Think of the Linux community as a niche economy isolated by its beliefs. Kind of like the Amish, except that our religion requires us to use _higher_ technology than everyone else. -- Donald B. Marti Jr. msg65739/pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [expert] Mandrake RPM updates
On Fri, Feb 07, 2003 at 17:12 -0600, Vox wrote: Since it seems like comparisons with debian are in vogue lately in the mdk community, here goes another one :) cooker = unstable mandrake linux = testing corporate server = stable With cooker you are in the bleeding edge and hunt the bugs. Changes hourly. With mandrake linux, you get a very usable system for all desktops and small servers, and get to hunt the non-critical bugs left. Changes every 6 months, bugfixes between. With corporate server you get the rock-stable box for a monster critical server, no/extremely few bugs. Change every couple of years, bugfixes between. What do you think about that? :) IMHO that tells it roughly. cooker for the geek - no $$$ but great help for the distro mandrake linux for the user - few $$$ but nagging all the time corposerv for the *real* work - demanding but brings the $$$ (Don't take that too serious) wobo -- If you don't understand or are scared by any of the above ask your parents or an adult to help you. Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] Mandrake RPM updates
Win95 was released in the fall of 94 in Korea... which is where I was when it came out. On Wed, 2003-02-05 at 04:24, et wrote: On Wednesday 05 February 2003 05:05 am, Anne Wilson wrote: On Wednesday 05 Feb 2003 9:03 am, James Sparenberg wrote: Great. after september 30 this year I won't have a single supportable box U Gentlemen. Are you going to give me new laptops with my 9.1 distro? It wouldn't be a problem if I could manage to get software that would last as long as my hardware... well... let's see 8 years on Win95 ... 6 on 98 .. h me thinks the product life cycle is t short. if you are under the impression that M$ has an 8 year product suport for win95, you might try asking M$ what support they offer for win95, and consider that sept 2004 win95 will be 8 years old, as it was 1 year old in 1996 Could someone clarify, please? Does this mean that there will be no security fixes after those dates? If those continue we would be no worse off than with any windows distro. After all, if it works for us now it will continue to do so. But without security updates it's a whole new ball game. Anne __ Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com -- James Sparenberg [EMAIL PROTECTED] Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] Mandrake RPM updates
On Wed, 2003-02-05 at 12:12, Vincent Danen wrote: On Wed Feb 05, 2003 at 06:44:05PM +, Anne Wilson wrote: Great. after september 30 this year I won't have a single supportable box U Gentlemen. Are you going to give me new laptops with my 9.1 distro? It wouldn't be a problem if I could manage to get software that would last as long as my hardware... well... let's see 8 years on Win95 ... 6 on 98 .. h me thinks the product life cycle is t short. Don't even begin comparing us to Microsoft. You should know better. How much cash does Microsoft have in reserve? How much does MandrakeSoft? There has to be a limit as to what is affordable in the way of support. When it comes down to it, only security is an issue to someone continuing to use an older distro if they choose to do so. If maintaining security updates is too difficult, might it be feasible to maintain a page of link to security updates that those running crucial servers could use? Since those users are most likely to compile their own, it sounds feasible. What do you think? That's what MandrakeSecure, the [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list, updates for newer distribs, are all for. Put it this way: Subscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] (you should already be subscribed if you care about security anyways)... you will be alerted on new updates whether they are security or bugfix. The advisory indicates what packages are updated, for what distrib, and what the problem is. Visit http://www.mandrakesecure.net/advisories/ if you don't want to subscribe. The advisories for each platform are there. Download the src.rpm indicated in the advisory. Either attempt to rebuild it for your old distrib, or extract the patches and apply it to whatever version you're currently using (backporting is likely necessary). The information is already all there, and I'm willing to bet that people who haven't upgraded their 7.1 machines are using this information to keep their 7.1 system relatively current. This is true and up until 9.0 came out this was possible. (too many changes.) What I'm think of is a situation where you got 1000 of these puppies ranging from 7.1 through 9.0 it can be a nightmare. My severs aren't that many. I do agree that things should have a life. But a reasonable life. how about support for a series. 7.x support dead in June. 8.x dead at the end of the year. 9.x goes on until Say... we are into the 10 series? In 1997 I bought a copy of NT4 for 159 bucks. Support for this ends at the end of this year so I can spread my costs over 5 years. Here though I pay 69.95 twice a year(I only download beta's and if I really need the hardware support). and I don't get support or updates in the sense that for example. No kernel yet released for 8.2 will work right on my i815 and i830 boxes (but 9.0 works fine.) so if I'm an 8.2 user... I'm stuck with a 70 dollar set of frisbee's. No I can't download the kernel and build it. The extra dependencies on things like DocBook etc etc etc. creates a nightmare of apps to build. and many of them don't compile on anything earlier than 9.0. My point is not that it shouldn't have a life. But rather that the support life is too short. This has dramatically increased the TCO of linux in many a CEO/CTO's mind. (More time spent in upgrades, remember they were complaining about every 2 years with MS!) The disks cost less yes... but the percieved cost of the personel needed to install of these boxes + the risk of data loss during upgrades is a very real concern for them. James -- James Sparenberg [EMAIL PROTECTED] Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] Mandrake RPM updates
On Wed, 2003-02-05 at 06:15, et wrote: I have noticed that Redhat, and M$ has lately published listing reguardiing expected support cycles, and all of them are shorter than what most people expect for manufactured products, but this is the way of things, and even more so with computers, since the hardware is planned to be obsolete in 3 to 4 years anyway. This is the sweet spot I'm talking about IF support cycles matched hardware life it would be IMHO a better proposition. In other words doing support life by series not by release. The the life cycle of the series would more closely match the life of the hardware. The problem now is to hit the sweet spot in Corporate world in such a way that they want/need MDK's support and are willing to pay for it! Product life cycle is cool. I still feel it's a little short. James the real problem (from my narrow little pinhole viewpoint) is the need for applications needing all the computing power available. while most companies got P3 M$ windows boxes, they still use them to emmulate access to a termanel off the server, or run word. stuff they could have done with the wyse monochrom termanal they threw away to have pretty colors. __ Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com -- James Sparenberg [EMAIL PROTECTED] Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] Mandrake RPM updates
On Thursday 06 February 2003 03:38 am, James Sparenberg wrote: On Wed, 2003-02-05 at 06:15, et wrote: I have noticed that Redhat, and M$ has lately published listing reguardiing expected support cycles, and all of them are shorter than what most people expect for manufactured products, but this is the way of things, and even more so with computers, since the hardware is planned to be obsolete in 3 to 4 years anyway. This is the sweet spot I'm talking about IF support cycles matched hardware life it would be IMHO a better proposition. In other words doing support life by series not by release. The the life cycle of the series would more closely match the life of the hardware. The problem now is to hit the sweet spot in Corporate world in such a way that they want/need MDK's support and are willing to pay for it! Product life cycle is cool. I still feel it's a little short. I think it is worth mentioning, (more for someone that is just looking thru the archives and comes across this thread) that the support we are talking about is actully package sucurity updates, and not I just got given a Mandrake 7.2 cd, how do I get it installed letters to the mail lists. I am pretty sure that those kinda questions will still get some attention, just not to be worried about by Mandrake Paid Employees. James the real problem (from my narrow little pinhole viewpoint) is the need for applications needing all the computing power available. while most companies got P3 M$ windows boxes, they still use them to emmulate access to a termanel off the server, or run word. stuff they could have done with the wyse monochrom termanal they threw away to have pretty colors. __ Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] Mandrake RPM updates
On Thursday 06 February 2003 03:38 am, James Sparenberg wrote: On Wed, 2003-02-05 at 06:15, et wrote: I have noticed that Redhat, and M$ has lately published listing reguardiing expected support cycles, and all of them are shorter than what most people expect for manufactured products, but this is the way of things, and even more so with computers, since the hardware is planned to be obsolete in 3 to 4 years anyway. This is the sweet spot I'm talking about IF support cycles matched hardware life it would be IMHO a better proposition. In other words doing support life by series not by release. The the life cycle of the series would more closely match the life of the hardware. The problem now is to hit the sweet spot in Corporate world in such a way that they want/need MDK's support and are willing to pay for it! Product life cycle is cool. I still feel it's a little short. James the real problem (from my narrow little pinhole viewpoint) is the need for applications needing all the computing power available. while most companies got P3 M$ windows boxes, they still use them to emmulate access to a termanel off the server, or run word. stuff they could have done with the wyse monochrom termanal they threw away to have pretty colors. __ Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com I would like to see a free support and a paid for support level that is extended, but that seems to be what they tried to do... support th server series longer than the desktop series. that said, I firmly believe the powerpack makes for a damn sweet serveer too, that can fillin as a desktop when needed Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] Mandrake RPM updates
On Wednesday 05 Feb 2003 10:46 pm, Vincent Danen wrote: So if this part of the support is going to continue there really isn't any need to panic? I'm not sure what you mean, but I'll take a stab at it. Will MandrakeSecure continue to publish advisories? Yes. Will advisories continue to go to the mailing lists? Yes. Will update srpms still remain publically available? Absolutely. It depends on how much work you want to do. You can either update to a newer distrib, and do the work to do the migration, or do the work patching/maintaining your old distrib. It's up to you... the tools will always be there. I think that's all we need to know. Thank you Vincent Anne -- Registered Linux User No.293302 Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
RE: [expert] Mandrake RPM updates
90% of the server apps are on the Desktop install anyway. Correct? Like Apache, Sendmail, etc. Rob -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of et Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2003 6:27 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [expert] Mandrake RPM updates On Thursday 06 February 2003 03:38 am, James Sparenberg wrote: On Wed, 2003-02-05 at 06:15, et wrote: I have noticed that Redhat, and M$ has lately published listing reguardiing expected support cycles, and all of them are shorter than what most people expect for manufactured products, but this is the way of things, and even more so with computers, since the hardware is planned to be obsolete in 3 to 4 years anyway. This is the sweet spot I'm talking about IF support cycles matched hardware life it would be IMHO a better proposition. In other words doing support life by series not by release. The the life cycle of the series would more closely match the life of the hardware. The problem now is to hit the sweet spot in Corporate world in such a way that they want/need MDK's support and are willing to pay for it! Product life cycle is cool. I still feel it's a little short. James the real problem (from my narrow little pinhole viewpoint) is the need for applications needing all the computing power available. while most companies got P3 M$ windows boxes, they still use them to emmulate access to a termanel off the server, or run word. stuff they could have done with the wyse monochrom termanal they threw away to have pretty colors. __ Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com I would like to see a free support and a paid for support level that is extended, but that seems to be what they tried to do... support th server series longer than the desktop series. that said, I firmly believe the powerpack makes for a damn sweet serveer too, that can fillin as a desktop when needed Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] Mandrake RPM updates
On Thu Feb 06, 2003 at 12:30:34AM -0800, James Sparenberg wrote:
My responses on this thread will be brief. I invite everyone to read
the thread that was on the discuss mailing list; archives are here:
http://archives.mandrakelinux.com/discuss/2003-02/
[...]
Visit http://www.mandrakesecure.net/advisories/ if you don't want to
subscribe. The advisories for each platform are there.
Download the src.rpm indicated in the advisory. Either attempt to
rebuild it for your old distrib, or extract the patches and apply it to
whatever version you're currently using (backporting is likely
necessary).
The information is already all there, and I'm willing to bet that
people who haven't upgraded their 7.1 machines are using this
information to keep their 7.1 system relatively current.
This is true and up until 9.0 came out this was possible. (too many
changes.) What I'm think of is a situation where you got 1000 of these
puppies ranging from 7.1 through 9.0 it can be a nightmare. My severs
aren't that many. I do agree that things should have a life. But a
reasonable life. how about support for a series. 7.x support dead in
June. 8.x dead at the end of the year. 9.x goes on until Say...
we are into the 10 series?
The policy is already in place. We're not modifying it. 7.2 is the
only 7.x currently supported. It's been available for 26mos now. It's
time for it to die.
And, if we follow our current release cycle, 9.1 will reach the end of
it's life when 10.0 is out (desktop support). It will reach it's full
EOL when 10.1 is out. So 9.x is being supported until 10.x is
available.
In 1997 I bought a copy of NT4 for 159 bucks. Support for this ends at
the end of this year so I can spread my costs over 5 years. Here though
Again, you're comparing Microsoft with an extremely large cash reserve
and *far* more resources to MandrakeSoft, which is currently in chapter
11. Draw your own conclusion as to how much we can afford to support.
I pay 69.95 twice a year(I only download beta's and if I really need the
hardware support). and I don't get support or updates in the sense that
for example. No kernel yet released for 8.2 will work right on my i815
and i830 boxes (but 9.0 works fine.) so if I'm an 8.2 user... I'm stuck
with a 70 dollar set of frisbee's. No I can't download the kernel and
build it. The extra dependencies on things like DocBook etc etc etc.
creates a nightmare of apps to build. and many of them don't compile on
anything earlier than 9.0.
For kernel stuff, you need to talk to the kernel guys. If I attempted
to fix this, I'd likely break everything in the process.
And compiling a kernel from source isn't that bad. urpmi kernel-source
and all the deps come with it.
My point is not that it shouldn't have a life. But rather that the
support life is too short. This has dramatically increased the TCO of
linux in many a CEO/CTO's mind. (More time spent in upgrades, remember
they were complaining about every 2 years with MS!) The disks cost less
yes... but the percieved cost of the personel needed to install of these
boxes + the risk of data loss during upgrades is a very real concern for
them.
I agree, to some extent. MandrakeLinux is a desktop OS, not a server
OS. If you choose to use it as such, you have to deal with the risk.
This is why we announced the policy, so one can plan accordingly.
Corporate Server 2.1 was announced today. This will have a longer
support life and it may be the solution you are looking for.
--
MandrakeSoft Security; http://www.mandrakesecure.net/
lynx -source http://linsec.ca/vdanen.asc | gpg --import
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Re: [expert] Mandrake RPM updates
On Thu Feb 06, 2003 at 07:27:23AM -0500, et wrote:
[...]
I would like to see a free support and a paid for support level that is
extended, but that seems to be what they tried to do... support th server
series longer than the desktop series. that said, I firmly believe the
powerpack makes for a damn sweet serveer too, that can fillin as a desktop
when needed
This is your choice. Powerpack is not sold, advertised, or priced as a
server OS. Please don't expect us to support it as such when that is
not it's intent. Powerpack is a desktop OS for power users.
No one is stopping you from using Powerpack as your server. Just
understand it has an 18mos life cycle.
--
MandrakeSoft Security; http://www.mandrakesecure.net/
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Re: [expert] Mandrake RPM updates
On Thu Feb 06, 2003 at 10:23:55AM +, Anne Wilson wrote:
So if this part of the support is going to continue there really isn't
any need to panic?
I'm not sure what you mean, but I'll take a stab at it. Will
MandrakeSecure continue to publish advisories? Yes. Will advisories
continue to go to the mailing lists? Yes. Will update srpms still
remain publically available? Absolutely.
It depends on how much work you want to do. You can either update to a
newer distrib, and do the work to do the migration, or do the work
patching/maintaining your old distrib. It's up to you... the tools
will always be there.
I think that's all we need to know. Thank you Vincent
The other thing to note, Anne, is that Corporate Server 2.1 was
announced today. It has a much longer support life than Mandrake Linux
does. It may fill your needs.
--
MandrakeSoft Security; http://www.mandrakesecure.net/
lynx -source http://linsec.ca/vdanen.asc | gpg --import
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Re: [expert] Mandrake RPM updates
On Wednesday 05 February 2003 11:38 pm, James Sparenberg wrote: On Wed, 2003-02-05 at 06:15, et wrote: I have noticed that Redhat, and M$ has lately published listing reguardiing expected support cycles, and all of them are shorter than what most people expect for manufactured products, but this is the way of things, and even more so with computers, since the hardware is planned to be obsolete in 3 to 4 years anyway. This is the sweet spot I'm talking about IF support cycles matched hardware life it would be IMHO a better proposition. In other words doing support life by series not by release. The the life cycle of the series would more closely match the life of the hardware. The problem now is to hit the sweet spot in Corporate world in such a way that they want/need MDK's support and are willing to pay for it! Product life cycle is cool. I still feel it's a little short. James the real problem (from my narrow little pinhole viewpoint) is the need for applications needing all the computing power available. while most companies got P3 M$ windows boxes, they still use them to emmulate access to a termanel off the server, or run word. stuff they could have done with the wyse monochrom termanal they threw away to have pretty colors. __ Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com Well 3-4 years of supporting old things in a system as dynamic as GNU/linux is going to co$t. Perhaps the most useful activity to make this happen is to form a club for such support and see if you get enough subscriptions to support the effort. No one can offer that length of support and remain competitive with other distros in terms of selling price. MIcrosoft could support things for longer because their software does not change as often. the win95 kernel and the win 98 kernel were byte-for-byte identical. Expect to see MS dropping win2K next January. (Horrid flash--writers of job descriptions will have fits as they try to require 4 years experience with the latest release of windows or linux) Happy motoring!!! Civileme Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] Mandrake RPM updates
Well, I think the end of life stuff sucks. Yes, it's inevitable, but it still sucks. I for one haven't upgraded my 7.2 server (other than applying patches) since it was installed. Why? Answer: It works, It works, It works! It is inefficient to think about spending 3-5 days of a backup, HD format, re-install, reconfigure, reload, test, (fix what used to work, but now for some reason unexplained doesn't), QA and harden a new server when the one you have provides 100% of what you need (and believe me 7.2 is widely installed and has few shortcommings) So no, I don't repave each time a got to have a number larger than RH release comes out. If their is a needed capability that is offered in the new release, then I would. However, ssh, apache, php, mysql, pptpd, ipsec, samba (no XP clients), BIND 8, and the rest still work just fine under 7.2. -- David C. Rankin, J.D., P.E. Rankin * Bertin, PLLC 510 Ochiltree Street Nacogdoches, Texas 75961 (936) 715-9333 - Original Message - From: Mark Chou [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 5:44 PM Subject: [expert] Mandrake RPM updates Now that Mandrake has announced their product end-of-life policy (http://www.mandrakelinux.com/en/productlifetime.php3), I really need a sustainable upgrade strategy. I've always struggled with rpm updates, basically downloadling source rpms and building them myself. Mandrake package dependencies also happen to be particularly 'unkempt,' often includes things that really aren't necessary. My most important MDK box, a gateway/firewall, is still basically MDK8.0 (console only). What do most of you do to keep your machines up to date with necessary features and security updates? Do you pretty much re-pave each time for a newer MDK distro, or do you build your own from sources? Any time-saving hints, like rsync, etc, which would save download time? What are the best practices? Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
RE: [expert] Mandrake RPM updates
I totally agree with this. WHY WHY WHY? well then again security issues and updates and features Rob -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of David Rankin Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2003 10:34 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [expert] Mandrake RPM updates Well, I think the end of life stuff sucks. Yes, it's inevitable, but it still sucks. I for one haven't upgraded my 7.2 server (other than applying patches) since it was installed. Why? Answer: It works, It works, It works! It is inefficient to think about spending 3-5 days of a backup, HD format, re-install, reconfigure, reload, test, (fix what used to work, but now for some reason unexplained doesn't), QA and harden a new server when the one you have provides 100% of what you need (and believe me 7.2 is widely installed and has few shortcommings) So no, I don't repave each time a got to have a number larger than RH release comes out. If their is a needed capability that is offered in the new release, then I would. However, ssh, apache, php, mysql, pptpd, ipsec, samba (no XP clients), BIND 8, and the rest still work just fine under 7.2. -- David C. Rankin, J.D., P.E. Rankin * Bertin, PLLC 510 Ochiltree Street Nacogdoches, Texas 75961 (936) 715-9333 - Original Message - From: Mark Chou [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 5:44 PM Subject: [expert] Mandrake RPM updates Now that Mandrake has announced their product end-of-life policy (http://www.mandrakelinux.com/en/productlifetime.php3), I really need a sustainable upgrade strategy. I've always struggled with rpm updates, basically downloadling source rpms and building them myself. Mandrake package dependencies also happen to be particularly 'unkempt,' often includes things that really aren't necessary. My most important MDK box, a gateway/firewall, is still basically MDK8.0 (console only). What do most of you do to keep your machines up to date with necessary features and security updates? Do you pretty much re-pave each time for a newer MDK distro, or do you build your own from sources? Any time-saving hints, like rsync, etc, which would save download time? What are the best practices? - --- Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
RE: [expert] Mandrake RPM updates
Yep, I totally agree.. Vincent made a statement that mdk was a desktop OS.. and that as such had no obligations to be a server.. I wasn't totally aware of that, I have seen blurb on the website about how mandrake makes good servers.. and that many of the examples that mandrake give in their newsletters are about mandrake as servers... As sad as it is to me,, I will probably swap to redhat or debian for servers in future, because a reload every 18 months is alittle to much for me.. we have 20 servers in our system.. and thats alot of work, not to mention that I have setup many small business's with mandrake 8.1/8.1 and 9.0 boxes... all of which don't have a long lifespan ahead.. I can only hope that when mandrake gets back in the black they will rethink this to some degree.. One of the reasons I have been parading to our dept heads that linux is better then winsucks is the longevity of the product... The only way to really get that now it seems.. is to use stable debian.. rgds Frank -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of David Rankin Sent: Friday, 7 February 2003 12:34 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [expert] Mandrake RPM updates Well, I think the end of life stuff sucks. Yes, it's inevitable, but it still sucks. I for one haven't upgraded my 7.2 server (other than applying patches) since it was installed. Why? Answer: It works, It works, It works! It is inefficient to think about spending 3-5 days of a backup, HD format, re-install, reconfigure, reload, test, (fix what used to work, but now for some reason unexplained doesn't), QA and harden a new server when the one you have provides 100% of what you need (and believe me 7.2 is widely installed and has few shortcommings) So no, I don't repave each time a got to have a number larger than RH release comes out. If their is a needed capability that is offered in the new release, then I would. However, ssh, apache, php, mysql, pptpd, ipsec, samba (no XP clients), BIND 8, and the rest still work just fine under 7.2. -- David C. Rankin, J.D., P.E. Rankin * Bertin, PLLC 510 Ochiltree Street Nacogdoches, Texas 75961 (936) 715-9333 - Original Message - From: Mark Chou [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 5:44 PM Subject: [expert] Mandrake RPM updates Now that Mandrake has announced their product end-of-life policy (http://www.mandrakelinux.com/en/productlifetime.php3), I really need a sustainable upgrade strategy. I've always struggled with rpm updates, basically downloadling source rpms and building them myself. Mandrake package dependencies also happen to be particularly 'unkempt,' often includes things that really aren't necessary. My most important MDK box, a gateway/firewall, is still basically MDK8.0 (console only). What do most of you do to keep your machines up to date with necessary features and security updates? Do you pretty much re-pave each time for a newer MDK distro, or do you build your own from sources? Any time-saving hints, like rsync, etc, which would save download time? What are the best practices? Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
RE: [expert] Mandrake RPM updates
As sad as it is to me,, I will probably swap to redhat or debian for servers in future, because a reload every 18 months is alittle to much for me.. we have 20 servers in our system.. and thats alot of work, not to mention that I have setup many small business's with mandrake 8.1/8.1 and 9.0 boxes... all of which don't have a long lifespan ahead.. RH Advanced Server is released every 18 months, desktop releases are every 6 monthsjust FYI if you dont want to update every 18 months, good luck on it. Rob Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
RE: [expert] Mandrake RPM updates
The one thing that draws me to Mandrake is the fact that it is more geared toward the desktop. I truly believe that the future of linux depends on getting the common person to use it instead of windows and most people use a desktop and do not have a server. As far as I am concerned Mandrake makes a nice server too. If you have 20 servers in your system, why not switch to the new corporate server just released? just my opinion... Walt On Fri, 2003-02-07 at 01:14, Franki wrote: Yep, I totally agree.. Vincent made a statement that mdk was a desktop OS.. and that as such had no obligations to be a server.. I wasn't totally aware of that, I have seen blurb on the website about how mandrake makes good servers.. and that many of the examples that mandrake give in their newsletters are about mandrake as servers... As sad as it is to me,, I will probably swap to redhat or debian for servers in future, because a reload every 18 months is alittle to much for me.. we have 20 servers in our system.. and thats alot of work, not to mention that I have setup many small business's with mandrake 8.1/8.1 and 9.0 boxes... all of which don't have a long lifespan ahead.. I can only hope that when mandrake gets back in the black they will rethink this to some degree.. One of the reasons I have been parading to our dept heads that linux is better then winsucks is the longevity of the product... The only way to really get that now it seems.. is to use stable debian.. rgds Frank -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of David Rankin Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
RE: [expert] Mandrake RPM updates
On Thu, 2003-02-06 at 22:14, Franki wrote: Yep, I totally agree.. Vincent made a statement that mdk was a desktop OS.. and that as such had no obligations to be a server.. I wasn't totally aware of that, I have seen blurb on the website about how mandrake makes good servers.. and that many of the examples that mandrake give in their newsletters are about mandrake as servers... As sad as it is to me,, I will probably swap to redhat Don't go RH same situation, UNLESS you pay extra for extra support. Slack is good... and reliable. or debian for servers in future, because a reload every 18 months is alittle to much for me.. we have 20 servers in our system.. and thats alot of work, not to mention that I have setup many small business's with mandrake 8.1/8.1 and 9.0 boxes... all of which don't have a long lifespan ahead.. I can only hope that when mandrake gets back in the black they will rethink this to some degree.. One of the reasons I have been parading to our dept heads that linux is better then winsucks is the longevity of the product... The only way to really get that now it seems.. is to use stable debian.. rgds Frank -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of David Rankin Sent: Friday, 7 February 2003 12:34 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [expert] Mandrake RPM updates Well, I think the end of life stuff sucks. Yes, it's inevitable, but it still sucks. I for one haven't upgraded my 7.2 server (other than applying patches) since it was installed. Why? Answer: It works, It works, It works! It is inefficient to think about spending 3-5 days of a backup, HD format, re-install, reconfigure, reload, test, (fix what used to work, but now for some reason unexplained doesn't), QA and harden a new server when the one you have provides 100% of what you need (and believe me 7.2 is widely installed and has few shortcommings) So no, I don't repave each time a got to have a number larger than RH release comes out. If their is a needed capability that is offered in the new release, then I would. However, ssh, apache, php, mysql, pptpd, ipsec, samba (no XP clients), BIND 8, and the rest still work just fine under 7.2. -- David C. Rankin, J.D., P.E. Rankin * Bertin, PLLC 510 Ochiltree Street Nacogdoches, Texas 75961 (936) 715-9333 - Original Message - From: Mark Chou [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 5:44 PM Subject: [expert] Mandrake RPM updates Now that Mandrake has announced their product end-of-life policy (http://www.mandrakelinux.com/en/productlifetime.php3), I really need a sustainable upgrade strategy. I've always struggled with rpm updates, basically downloadling source rpms and building them myself. Mandrake package dependencies also happen to be particularly 'unkempt,' often includes things that really aren't necessary. My most important MDK box, a gateway/firewall, is still basically MDK8.0 (console only). What do most of you do to keep your machines up to date with necessary features and security updates? Do you pretty much re-pave each time for a newer MDK distro, or do you build your own from sources? Any time-saving hints, like rsync, etc, which would save download time? What are the best practices? Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com __ Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com -- James Sparenberg [EMAIL PROTECTED] Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
RE: [expert] Mandrake RPM updates
On Thu, 2003-02-06 at 22:26, walt wrote: The one thing that draws me to Mandrake is the fact that it is more geared toward the desktop. I truly believe that the future of linux depends on getting the common person to use it instead of windows and most people use a desktop and do not have a server. As far as I am concerned Mandrake makes a nice server too. If you have 20 servers in your system, why not switch to the new corporate server just released? the old one works ... is reliable. and if you dare mention to the sysadmin that you want him to lose is 200+ days of uptime he/she might strangle you *grin* James just my opinion... Walt On Fri, 2003-02-07 at 01:14, Franki wrote: Yep, I totally agree.. Vincent made a statement that mdk was a desktop OS.. and that as such had no obligations to be a server.. I wasn't totally aware of that, I have seen blurb on the website about how mandrake makes good servers.. and that many of the examples that mandrake give in their newsletters are about mandrake as servers... As sad as it is to me,, I will probably swap to redhat or debian for servers in future, because a reload every 18 months is alittle to much for me.. we have 20 servers in our system.. and thats alot of work, not to mention that I have setup many small business's with mandrake 8.1/8.1 and 9.0 boxes... all of which don't have a long lifespan ahead.. I can only hope that when mandrake gets back in the black they will rethink this to some degree.. One of the reasons I have been parading to our dept heads that linux is better then winsucks is the longevity of the product... The only way to really get that now it seems.. is to use stable debian.. rgds Frank -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of David Rankin __ Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com -- James Sparenberg [EMAIL PROTECTED] Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] Mandrake RPM updates
On Thu, 2003-02-06 at 13:13, civileme wrote: On Wednesday 05 February 2003 11:38 pm, James Sparenberg wrote: On Wed, 2003-02-05 at 06:15, et wrote: I have noticed that Redhat, and M$ has lately published listing reguardiing expected support cycles, and all of them are shorter than what most people expect for manufactured products, but this is the way of things, and even more so with computers, since the hardware is planned to be obsolete in 3 to 4 years anyway. This is the sweet spot I'm talking about IF support cycles matched hardware life it would be IMHO a better proposition. In other words doing support life by series not by release. The the life cycle of the series would more closely match the life of the hardware. The problem now is to hit the sweet spot in Corporate world in such a way that they want/need MDK's support and are willing to pay for it! Product life cycle is cool. I still feel it's a little short. James the real problem (from my narrow little pinhole viewpoint) is the need for applications needing all the computing power available. while most companies got P3 M$ windows boxes, they still use them to emmulate access to a termanel off the server, or run word. stuff they could have done with the wyse monochrom termanal they threw away to have pretty colors. __ Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com Well 3-4 years of supporting old things in a system as dynamic as GNU/linux is going to co$t. Perhaps the most useful activity to make this happen is to form a club for such support and see if you get enough subscriptions to support the effort. No one can offer that length of support and remain competitive with other distros in terms of selling price. MIcrosoft could support things for longer because their software does not change as often. the win95 kernel and the win 98 kernel were byte-for-byte identical. Expect to see MS dropping win2K next January. (Horrid flash--writers of job descriptions will have fits as they try to require 4 years experience with the latest release of windows or linux) Hey fits well with 15 years of Java experience. *grin*. Happy motoring!!! Civileme __ Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com -- James Sparenberg [EMAIL PROTECTED] Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] Mandrake RPM updates
On Thu, 2003-02-06 at 23:23, James Sparenberg wrote: On Thu, 2003-02-06 at 13:13, civileme wrote: On Wednesday 05 February 2003 11:38 pm, James Sparenberg wrote: On Wed, 2003-02-05 at 06:15, et wrote: I have noticed that Redhat, and M$ has lately published listing reguardiing expected support cycles, and all of them are shorter than what most people expect for manufactured products, but this is the way of things, and even more so with computers, since the hardware is planned to be obsolete in 3 to 4 years anyway. This is the sweet spot I'm talking about IF support cycles matched hardware life it would be IMHO a better proposition. In other words doing support life by series not by release. The the life cycle of the series would more closely match the life of the hardware. The problem now is to hit the sweet spot in Corporate world in such a way that they want/need MDK's support and are willing to pay for it! Product life cycle is cool. I still feel it's a little short. James the real problem (from my narrow little pinhole viewpoint) is the need for applications needing all the computing power available. while most companies got P3 M$ windows boxes, they still use them to emmulate access to a termanel off the server, or run word. stuff they could have done with the wyse monochrom termanal they threw away to have pretty colors. __ Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com Well 3-4 years of supporting old things in a system as dynamic as GNU/linux is going to co$t. Perhaps the most useful activity to make this happen is to form a club for such support and see if you get enough subscriptions to support the effort. No one can offer that length of support and remain competitive with other distros in terms of selling price. MIcrosoft could support things for longer because their software does not change as often. the win95 kernel and the win 98 kernel were byte-for-byte identical. Expect to see MS dropping win2K next January. (Horrid flash--writers of job descriptions will have fits as they try to require 4 years experience with the latest release of windows or linux) Hey fits well with 15 years of Java experience. *grin*. Happy motoring!!! Civileme Oh my goodness Just had a serious thought wouldn't it suck to be an mcse right now. Cause if I know M$ it's a whole new program not just a class to update your skills. James Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] Mandrake RPM updates
Great. after september 30 this year I won't have a single supportable box U Gentlemen. Are you going to give me new laptops with my 9.1 distro? It wouldn't be a problem if I could manage to get software that would last as long as my hardware... well... let's see 8 years on Win95 ... 6 on 98 .. h me thinks the product life cycle is t short. James On Tue, 2003-02-04 at 15:44, Mark Chou wrote: Now that Mandrake has announced their product end-of-life policy (http://www.mandrakelinux.com/en/productlifetime.php3), I really need a sustainable upgrade strategy. I've always struggled with rpm updates, basically downloadling source rpms and building them myself. Mandrake package dependencies also happen to be particularly 'unkempt,' often includes things that really aren't necessary. My most important MDK box, a gateway/firewall, is still basically MDK8.0 (console only). What do most of you do to keep your machines up to date with necessary features and security updates? Do you pretty much re-pave each time for a newer MDK distro, or do you build your own from sources? Any time-saving hints, like rsync, etc, which would save download time? What are the best practices? Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] Mandrake RPM updates
On Wednesday 05 Feb 2003 9:03 am, James Sparenberg wrote: Great. after september 30 this year I won't have a single supportable box U Gentlemen. Are you going to give me new laptops with my 9.1 distro? It wouldn't be a problem if I could manage to get software that would last as long as my hardware... well... let's see 8 years on Win95 ... 6 on 98 .. h me thinks the product life cycle is t short. Could someone clarify, please? Does this mean that there will be no security fixes after those dates? If those continue we would be no worse off than with any windows distro. After all, if it works for us now it will continue to do so. But without security updates it's a whole new ball game. Anne -- Registered Linux User No.293302 Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] Mandrake RPM updates
On Wed, Feb 05, 2003 at 10:05:59AM +, Anne Wilson wrote: : On Wednesday 05 Feb 2003 9:03 am, James Sparenberg wrote: : Great. after september 30 this year I won't have a single : supportable box U Gentlemen. Are you going to give me new : laptops with my 9.1 distro? It wouldn't be a problem if I could manage : to get software that would last as long as my hardware... well... let's : see 8 years on Win95 ... 6 on 98 .. h me thinks the product : life cycle is t short. : : Could someone clarify, please? Does this mean that there will be no security : fixes after those dates? If those continue we would be no worse off than : with any windows distro. After all, if it works for us now it will continue : to do so. But without security updates it's a whole new ball game. Or any other Linux distro. Or most software programs for that matter. Personally, I'd rather see Mandrake do like everyone else and EOL a product rather than keep dumping time and money into something that get's them no return. --Jerry Open-Source software isn't a matter of life or death... ...It's much more important than that! Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] Mandrake RPM updates
On Wednesday 05 February 2003 05:05 am, Anne Wilson wrote: On Wednesday 05 Feb 2003 9:03 am, James Sparenberg wrote: Great. after september 30 this year I won't have a single supportable box U Gentlemen. Are you going to give me new laptops with my 9.1 distro? It wouldn't be a problem if I could manage to get software that would last as long as my hardware... well... let's see 8 years on Win95 ... 6 on 98 .. h me thinks the product life cycle is t short. if you are under the impression that M$ has an 8 year product suport for win95, you might try asking M$ what support they offer for win95, and consider that sept 2004 win95 will be 8 years old, as it was 1 year old in 1996 Could someone clarify, please? Does this mean that there will be no security fixes after those dates? If those continue we would be no worse off than with any windows distro. After all, if it works for us now it will continue to do so. But without security updates it's a whole new ball game. Anne Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
RE: [expert] Mandrake RPM updates
Microsoft have a 5 year time in which they support their product.. after that, all bets are off.. win95 has no new updates available, there are some that were created when it was supported, but there are no new ones.. win98 has just about finished its support cycle, and when they kill it, they will kill 98SE as well (even though technically, it was introduced almost a year after the first win98.) win2000 gets killed in 2005 etc etc.. People who setup servers don't like to change around alot.. I still have quite a few 7.2 boxes out there.. and now I have to upgrade just because I will have to manually update from tarballs for security fixes. Its a pain, but if it helps mandrake, then so be it.. I will upgrade the 7.2's to 9.1 or manually upgrade packages on the 7.2 boxes. Oh well, such is life.. rgds Frank -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of et Sent: Wednesday, 5 February 2003 8:25 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [expert] Mandrake RPM updates On Wednesday 05 February 2003 05:05 am, Anne Wilson wrote: On Wednesday 05 Feb 2003 9:03 am, James Sparenberg wrote: Great. after september 30 this year I won't have a single supportable box U Gentlemen. Are you going to give me new laptops with my 9.1 distro? It wouldn't be a problem if I could manage to get software that would last as long as my hardware... well... let's see 8 years on Win95 ... 6 on 98 .. h me thinks the product life cycle is t short. if you are under the impression that M$ has an 8 year product suport for win95, you might try asking M$ what support they offer for win95, and consider that sept 2004 win95 will be 8 years old, as it was 1 year old in 1996 Could someone clarify, please? Does this mean that there will be no security fixes after those dates? If those continue we would be no worse off than with any windows distro. After all, if it works for us now it will continue to do so. But without security updates it's a whole new ball game. Anne Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] Mandrake RPM updates
I have noticed that Redhat, and M$ has lately published listing reguardiing expected support cycles, and all of them are shorter than what most people expect for manufactured products, but this is the way of things, and even more so with computers, since the hardware is planned to be obsolete in 3 to 4 years anyway. the real problem (from my narrow little pinhole viewpoint) is the need for applications needing all the computing power available. while most companies got P3 M$ windows boxes, they still use them to emmulate access to a termanel off the server, or run word. stuff they could have done with the wyse monochrom termanal they threw away to have pretty colors. Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
RE: [expert] Mandrake RPM updates
The problem is the software manufacturers/programmers TRY to use ALL avail resources the HW can supportincluding what the languages they are writing in. If we could still create programs based on HW that is 5 years old using programming languages (real ones like C/C++/Java, Basic, early versions of VBno c# or .NET, etc) then the world would be a better place. This is of course in my opinion which i have dabbled in everything EXCEPT MS languageswont even go there. Rob -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of et Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2003 8:15 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [expert] Mandrake RPM updates I have noticed that Redhat, and M$ has lately published listing reguardiing expected support cycles, and all of them are shorter than what most people expect for manufactured products, but this is the way of things, and even more so with computers, since the hardware is planned to be obsolete in 3 to 4 years anyway. the real problem (from my narrow little pinhole viewpoint) is the need for applications needing all the computing power available. while most companies got P3 M$ windows boxes, they still use them to emmulate access to a termanel off the server, or run word. stuff they could have done with the wyse monochrom termanal they threw away to have pretty colors. Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] Mandrake RPM updates
On Wed Feb 05, 2003 at 01:03:42AM -0800, James Sparenberg wrote:
Great. after september 30 this year I won't have a single
supportable box U Gentlemen. Are you going to give me new
laptops with my 9.1 distro? It wouldn't be a problem if I could manage
to get software that would last as long as my hardware... well... let's
see 8 years on Win95 ... 6 on 98 .. h me thinks the product
life cycle is t short.
Don't even begin comparing us to Microsoft. You should know better.
How much cash does Microsoft have in reserve? How much does
MandrakeSoft?
'nuff said.
--
MandrakeSoft Security; http://www.mandrakesecure.net/
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Re: [expert] Mandrake RPM updates
On Wednesday 05 Feb 2003 6:24 pm, Vincent Danen wrote: On Wed Feb 05, 2003 at 01:03:42AM -0800, James Sparenberg wrote: Great. after september 30 this year I won't have a single supportable box U Gentlemen. Are you going to give me new laptops with my 9.1 distro? It wouldn't be a problem if I could manage to get software that would last as long as my hardware... well... let's see 8 years on Win95 ... 6 on 98 .. h me thinks the product life cycle is t short. Don't even begin comparing us to Microsoft. You should know better. How much cash does Microsoft have in reserve? How much does MandrakeSoft? There has to be a limit as to what is affordable in the way of support. When it comes down to it, only security is an issue to someone continuing to use an older distro if they choose to do so. If maintaining security updates is too difficult, might it be feasible to maintain a page of link to security updates that those running crucial servers could use? Since those users are most likely to compile their own, it sounds feasible. What do you think? Anne -- Registered Linux User No.293302 Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] Mandrake RPM updates
On Wed Feb 05, 2003 at 06:44:05PM +, Anne Wilson wrote:
Great. after september 30 this year I won't have a single
supportable box U Gentlemen. Are you going to give me new
laptops with my 9.1 distro? It wouldn't be a problem if I could manage
to get software that would last as long as my hardware... well... let's
see 8 years on Win95 ... 6 on 98 .. h me thinks the product
life cycle is t short.
Don't even begin comparing us to Microsoft. You should know better.
How much cash does Microsoft have in reserve? How much does
MandrakeSoft?
There has to be a limit as to what is affordable in the way of support. When
it comes down to it, only security is an issue to someone continuing to use
an older distro if they choose to do so. If maintaining security updates is
too difficult, might it be feasible to maintain a page of link to security
updates that those running crucial servers could use? Since those users are
most likely to compile their own, it sounds feasible. What do you think?
That's what MandrakeSecure, the [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing
list, updates for newer distribs, are all for.
Put it this way: Subscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] (you should
already be subscribed if you care about security anyways)... you will
be alerted on new updates whether they are security or bugfix. The
advisory indicates what packages are updated, for what distrib, and
what the problem is.
Visit http://www.mandrakesecure.net/advisories/ if you don't want to
subscribe. The advisories for each platform are there.
Download the src.rpm indicated in the advisory. Either attempt to
rebuild it for your old distrib, or extract the patches and apply it to
whatever version you're currently using (backporting is likely
necessary).
The information is already all there, and I'm willing to bet that
people who haven't upgraded their 7.1 machines are using this
information to keep their 7.1 system relatively current.
--
MandrakeSoft Security; http://www.mandrakesecure.net/
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Re: [expert] Mandrake RPM updates
On Wednesday 05 Feb 2003 8:12 pm, Vincent Danen wrote: That's what MandrakeSecure, the [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list, updates for newer distribs, are all for. Put it this way: Subscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] (you should already be subscribed if you care about security anyways)... you will be alerted on new updates whether they are security or bugfix. The advisory indicates what packages are updated, for what distrib, and what the problem is. Visit http://www.mandrakesecure.net/advisories/ if you don't want to subscribe. The advisories for each platform are there. Download the src.rpm indicated in the advisory. Either attempt to rebuild it for your old distrib, or extract the patches and apply it to whatever version you're currently using (backporting is likely necessary). The information is already all there, and I'm willing to bet that people who haven't upgraded their 7.1 machines are using this information to keep their 7.1 system relatively current. So if this part of the support is going to continue there really isn't any need to panic? Anne -- Registered Linux User No.293302 Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] Mandrake RPM updates
On Wed Feb 05, 2003 at 08:23:57PM +, Anne Wilson wrote:
That's what MandrakeSecure, the [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing
list, updates for newer distribs, are all for.
Put it this way: Subscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] (you should
already be subscribed if you care about security anyways)... you will
be alerted on new updates whether they are security or bugfix. The
advisory indicates what packages are updated, for what distrib, and
what the problem is.
Visit http://www.mandrakesecure.net/advisories/ if you don't want to
subscribe. The advisories for each platform are there.
Download the src.rpm indicated in the advisory. Either attempt to
rebuild it for your old distrib, or extract the patches and apply it to
whatever version you're currently using (backporting is likely
necessary).
The information is already all there, and I'm willing to bet that
people who haven't upgraded their 7.1 machines are using this
information to keep their 7.1 system relatively current.
So if this part of the support is going to continue there really isn't any
need to panic?
I'm not sure what you mean, but I'll take a stab at it. Will
MandrakeSecure continue to publish advisories? Yes. Will advisories
continue to go to the mailing lists? Yes. Will update srpms still
remain publically available? Absolutely.
It depends on how much work you want to do. You can either update to a
newer distrib, and do the work to do the migration, or do the work
patching/maintaining your old distrib. It's up to you... the tools
will always be there.
--
MandrakeSoft Security; http://www.mandrakesecure.net/
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Re: [expert] Mandrake RPM updates
On Tue, 2003-02-04 at 15:44, Mark Chou wrote: Now that Mandrake has announced their product end-of-life policy (http://www.mandrakelinux.com/en/productlifetime.php3), I really need a sustainable upgrade strategy. I've always struggled with rpm updates, basically downloadling source rpms and building them myself. Mandrake package dependencies also happen to be particularly 'unkempt,' often includes things that really aren't necessary. My most important MDK box, a gateway/firewall, is still basically MDK8.0 (console only). I would never use a full distribution for a system like that; have a look at http://leaf.sourceforge.net. What do most of you do to keep your machines up to date with necessary features and security updates? Do you pretty much re-pave each time for a newer MDK distro, or do you build your own from sources? Any time-saving hints, like rsync, etc, which would save download time? What are the best practices? I generally use Mandrake as a desktop and take whatever they suggest for an update; when I use it for a server I trim things down very carefully. I typically rebuild the crucial packages (e.g. the stuff that the box exists for) from src.rpm unless the box is high-security, in which case it doesn't have a compiler on it. __ Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com -- Jack Coates Monkeynoodle: A Scientific Venture... Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] Mandrake RPM updates
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Good afternoon, Mark... On Tuesday 04 February 2003 03:44 pm, Mark Chou wrote: What do most of you do to keep your machines up to date with necessary features and security updates? Do you pretty much re-pave each time for a newer MDK distro, or do you build your own from sources? Any time-saving hints, like rsync, etc, which would save download time? What are the best practices? I cannot speak for others, but the method I have used since I began using Mandrake as a workstation model is that I upgrade nearly every time a new distro is available. Plus, *anytiime* security fixes or upgrades are offered, I don't hesitate to download the upgrade and apply it without question. knocking on wood Thus far I have yet to be bitten by a security upgrade. Even the recent KDE upgrade went flawlessly, although I gather from reading comments that some did have problems. When a new distro comes out, such as 8.2 to 9.0, I wait a few days and watch the newsgroups (and this e-mail list among others) for any complaints of problems, and if none are perceived, I burn the CD's and write over the existing copy. Thus far, other than 8.0, I haven't had any trouble, and then it was because I was in too much of a hurry to do my homework. 8-( Thus far I have never used Mandrake as a server, although I understand it can be just as robust as RedHat when it comes to that. I just haven't gotten around to it yet. grin Dave - -- Dave Laird ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) The Used Kharma Lot / The Phoenix Project Web Page: http://www.kharma.net updated 01/20/2003 Usenet News server: news.kharma.net Musicians Calendar and Database access: http://www.kharma.net/calendar.html An automatic random thought For the Minute: Use a pun, go to jail. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+QF9paE1ENZP1A28RAnQAAJ0a6GKiASspirMNt5XpYemjmmSrdQCeLERT mxwI0rSX9QkZ7tLZuYoUffE= =UybP -END PGP SIGNATURE- Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] Mandrake RPM updates
Jack, If I were to install a linux firewall appliance today, I'd probably go with LEAF/LRP, or firewalls such as smoothwall, coyote, etc. However, 2+ years ago, when I embarked on this, I believe 2.4 kernels started penetrating the major distros, and one of the draws was stateful packet inspection (SPI), which didn't make it to LEAF/LRP for the longest time. I've pared down my MDK 8.0 firewall box to less than 250MB total, which I think is less than that of firewalls. It's only within recently memory that LEAF projects have even moved on to 2.4 kernel. And since my MDK fw was completely set up two years ago and running, there is really no compelling reason for me to switch to LEAF. LEAF also has other (perceived) drawbacks, such as too many variants, unclear if they are well tested for security flaws, etc. Thanks, Mark Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
