Re: [expert] Fundamental problem with Linux on the mass markey desktop?
For all the reasons different operating systems exist, so exists reasons for using each. It's a matter of rational choice. One needs look at ones requirements, then pick the proper OS. Linux is great for some things, as is Mac, and even Windows. Each has it's place. Use what works for you. Ric Ron Johnson wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 The constantly changing APIs/libraries. Moving from mdk7.2 to 8.0 required a complete reinstall to make sure no ghosts from the past remain to cause problems. This is because massive amounts of upgraded libraries were introduced, and many directories were moved. As we have seen so many threads here on this list, upgrading a mdk7.2 system in these 8.0 days requires compiling SRPMs, and many times, they won't work because of the aforementioned upgraded libraries and moved directories. Just recently, I upgraded from KDE 2.1.1 to 2.2. *Definitely* not something that non-geeks would ever contemplate or be able to do. Noone could contemplate it on a dial-up line. Take for example my wife. She's been using the same Win98 box with Office97 for 3 years. The only upgrade has been to IE5.5. She *likes* it that way. Could she be a happy, unchanging linux desktop user for 3 years from 1998? Don't think so. Could she be a happy linux desktop user for the 3 years starting now? NO. Soon, qt3 will be released. Then KDE3 will be re- leased. Then will RPMs (or even SRPMs) created for KDE3 run on her 2.2. Of course not, since mdk can't create *RPMs of new programs for old releases, even the last one, since the new programs use so many new features. Only when you can install a new RPM on a 3yo kernel/desktop will linux be ready for the mass market desktop. Comments? - -- ++ | Ron Johnson, Jr.Home: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | | Jefferson, LA USA | || | ~500K sq mi are needed for the population of the world to | ! live, 4 persons per lot, in lots that are 60'x150'.| ! That is California, Texas and Missouri.! ! Alternatively, France, Spain and The United Kingdom. | ++ -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE7mbAOjTz5dS9Us5wRAr9xAJ0T5oMwAnpko5DDWfqWhaCFSyO+2wCfbj03 z0PSfAD16WvWrtbqO5UhJ4Q= =nIZd -END PGP SIGNATURE- Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com message.footer Content-Type: text/plain Content-Encoding: 8bit Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] Fundamental problem with Linux on the mass markey desktop?
Ron Johnson wrote: You have nothing else to do with your phone line, or have gotten a 2nd modem-only line. Or he runs the download over night, and restarts it the next night. After, all, a CD only takes about 65 hours on my 33.6 modem. ;-) Randy Kramer Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] Fundamental problem with Linux on the mass markey desktop?
On Sun, 9 Sep 2001, civileme wrote: On Saturday 08 September 2001 12:38, Michael D. Viron wrote: At 05:01 PM 09/08/2001 +0200, joy_ping wrote: On Sat, 8 Sep 2001, Ron Johnson wrote: Moving from mdk7.2 to 8.0 required a complete reinstall to make sure no ghosts from the past remain to cause problems. this is a mandrake thing i think. cause they have some misteries directory organisation, and they changed it so hard, that it is completly different from the further releases. its not only unusable for other software, its unusable for the mandrake-made-updatetools too!! The Mysterious Directory Organizaion you speak of is available at various web sites. I happen to keep a copy because I refer to it often in my job as a QA engineer. http://perso.mandrakesoft.com/~civileme/fhs-2.2.pdf im started to read this doc and i agree with you that its a normal and good thing to make such kind of standartization, cause every linux-distribution seemed to made its own structure and was not very compatible with the other ones. but lets tell the truth: if mandrake made this really great step, with changing the directory-structure, updating some important libs, specially glibc, updating gcc (this is a special point too), for my taste you had to wait one - three months more till you released the 8.0 one, cause this 8.0 was not a real 0 one it was more an 7.9 i think. and the reason for this 0 release was not a rational one, depending on a development of a distribution, it was cause mandrake was going public on the financial market. please dont tell me the 8.0 release had nothing to do with the going public thing. its clear that your managment wanted this release BEFORE you were gone to the stock market. but anyway i installed the 8.0 release on one of our webservers and its running fine till now, but for a heavy-equipped router (4 networkcards, wireless, etc), im sad to tell you i choosed a debian distribution, cause i was afraid to change a mk-8.0-distro in a way that this router would work. r. z. Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] Fundamental problem with Linux on the mass markey desktop?
I got nothing to do with Mandrake execpt purchase the software and enjoy it and this list. I seemed to me that the fact the kernal changed from 2.2.x to 2.4.x and KDE had moved from a 1.0.x had a LOT more to do with it than the IPO. Of course i did not have the great ability to read minds you seem to have. I would wonder (I bet you know this too though) why you would be afraid to change MANDRAKE but not debian. im started to read this doc and i agree with you that its a normal and good thing to make such kind of standartization, cause every linux-distribution seemed to made its own structure and was not very compatible with the other ones. but lets tell the truth: if mandrake made this really great step, with changing the directory-structure, updating some important libs, specially glibc, updating gcc (this is a special point too), for my taste you had to wait one - three months more till you released the 8.0 one, cause this 8.0 was not a real 0 one it was more an 7.9 i think. and the reason for this 0 release was not a rational one, depending on a development of a distribution, it was cause mandrake was going public on the financial market. please dont tell me the 8.0 release had nothing to do with the going public thing. its clear that your managment wanted this release BEFORE you were gone to the stock market. but anyway i installed the 8.0 release on one of our webservers and its running fine till now, but for a heavy-equipped router (4 networkcards, wireless, etc), im sad to tell you i choosed a debian distribution, cause i was afraid to change a mk-8.0-distro in a way that this router would work. r. z. Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name=message.footer Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Description: Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] Fundamental problem with Linux on the mass markey desktop?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Sunday 09 September 2001 05:58 am, Randy Kramer wrote: Ron Johnson wrote: You have nothing else to do with your phone line, or have gotten a 2nd modem-only line. Or he runs the download over night, and restarts it the next night. After, all, a CD only takes about 65 hours on my 33.6 modem. ;-) So It would take EIGHT nights (presuming he starts it when he goes to sleep, and sleeps 8 hours). grin A 56K modem might only take 6 nights... - -- ++ | Ron Johnson, Jr.Home: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | | Jefferson, LA USA | || | 484,246 sq mi are needed for 6 billion people to live, 4 ! ! persons per lot, in lots that are 60'x150'.| ! That is ~ California, Texas and Missouri. ! ! Alternatively, France, Spain and The United Kingdom. | ++ -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE7m9VajTz5dS9Us5wRAvuBAJ4jF5mAw6UFpw9nik1qAUIpWWtROwCfVlbp KpgQKUyZ9cuVvLx0bpYBTqw= =5Fj4 -END PGP SIGNATURE- Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] Fundamental problem with Linux on the mass markey desktop?
On Sat, 8 Sep 2001, Ron Johnson wrote: Moving from mdk7.2 to 8.0 required a complete reinstall to make sure no ghosts from the past remain to cause problems. this is a mandrake thing i think. cause they have some misteries directory organisation, and they changed it so hard, that it is completly different from the further releases. its not only unusable for other software, its unusable for the mandrake-made-updatetools too!! im know upgrading (since severel weeks) my mk 7.1 box, to a linux-from-scratch release, and it works better than an mk 8.0 update i think. only one thing that brings me up is that the rpm-tools wich provided by this release dont work. for example when i make rpm -e --nodeps something, there are still some librarys and docs lying around wich i have to delete manually. dont know, maybe the database is not set up properly, i didnt changed anything on this rpm-shit. This is because massive amounts of upgraded libraries were introduced, and many directories were moved. As we have seen so many threads here on this list, upgrading a mdk7.2 system in these 8.0 days requires compiling SRPMs, and many times, they won't work because of the aforementioned upgraded libraries and moved directories. Just recently, I upgraded from KDE 2.1.1 to 2.2. *Definitely* not something that non-geeks would ever contemplate or be able to do. Noone could contemplate it on a dial-up line. you dont have to use KDE! i use mostly blackbox, but for some applications im updating my gnome-setup too, and i do it on a dial-up-line. Take for example my wife. She's been using the same Win98 box with Office97 for 3 years. The only upgrade has been to IE5.5. She *likes* it that way. Could she be a happy, unchanging linux desktop user for 3 years from 1998? Don't think so. i remebering from my ms-times when i have to upgrade some nt-boxes, there were severel so called 'service-packs', it takes sometimes a whole day in a small office to make such kind of update-orgy. if your wife is happy with her ugly windows-desk than she could be happy with a mk 6.1 with a fvwm 0.001 too i think. but the risk to getting a virus that destroys all her data is somehow higher on her windows box i think. Could she be a happy linux desktop user for the 3 years starting now? NO. Soon, qt3 will be released. Then KDE3 will be re- leased. Then will RPMs (or even SRPMs) created for KDE3 run on her 2.2. Of course not, since mdk can't create *RPMs of new programs for old releases, even the last one, since the new programs use so many new features. Only when you can install a new RPM on a 3yo kernel/desktop will linux be ready for the mass market desktop. Comments? - -- ++ | Ron Johnson, Jr.Home: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | | Jefferson, LA USA | || | ~500K sq mi are needed for the population of the world to | ! live, 4 persons per lot, in lots that are 60'x150'.| ! That is California, Texas and Missouri.! ! Alternatively, France, Spain and The United Kingdom. | ++ -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE7mbAOjTz5dS9Us5wRAr9xAJ0T5oMwAnpko5DDWfqWhaCFSyO+2wCfbj03 z0PSfAD16WvWrtbqO5UhJ4Q= =nIZd -END PGP SIGNATURE- Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] Fundamental problem with Linux on the mass markey desktop?
At 05:01 PM 09/08/2001 +0200, joy_ping wrote: On Sat, 8 Sep 2001, Ron Johnson wrote: Moving from mdk7.2 to 8.0 required a complete reinstall to make sure no ghosts from the past remain to cause problems. this is a mandrake thing i think. cause they have some misteries directory organisation, and they changed it so hard, that it is completly different from the further releases. its not only unusable for other software, its unusable for the mandrake-made-updatetools too!! No, this isn't a Mandrake specific thing. This happens occassionally on any release of a new .0 version. For example, when RedHat released 7.0 many things broke, which were then fixed in 7.1 (for example, they included rpm 4.x, which is backwards compatible with 3.x--but the reverse isn't true-- rpm 3.x isn't necessarily upwards compatible with 4.x) . im know upgrading (since severel weeks) my mk 7.1 box, to a linux-from-scratch release, and it works better than an mk 8.0 update i think. only one thing that brings me up is that the rpm-tools wich provided by this release dont work. for example when i make rpm -e --nodeps something, there are still some librarys and docs lying around wich i have to delete manually. dont know, maybe the database is not set up properly, i didnt changed anything on this rpm-shit. Actually, rpm -e --nodeps will only delete core binary files--it will not delete the libraries required to run the program. If you want to fully remove a program, you have to run rpm -e packagename. If that still doesn't remove everything--well, it's several orders of magnitude worse with windows, which doesn't necessarily remove everything either. This is because massive amounts of upgraded libraries were introduced, and many directories were moved. As we have seen so many threads here on this list, upgrading a mdk7.2 system in these 8.0 days requires compiling SRPMs, and many times, they won't work because of the aforementioned upgraded libraries and moved directories. Not true--I've successfully compiled and installed some cooker srpms to work with a Mandrake 7.2 install. What moved directories? As far as I remember there have been no directory changes since 7.0 --the libraries may be newer version, but they have not changed where they put stuff. -- Michael Viron Registered Linux User #81978 Senior Systems Administration Consultant Web Spinners, University of West Florida Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] Fundamental problem with Linux on the mass markey desktop?
So sprach »Michael D. Viron« am 2001-09-08 um 11:38:30 -0500 : work with a Mandrake 7.2 install. What moved directories? As far as I remember there have been no directory changes since 7.0 --the libraries may That's not true. Directory structure nowadays is much more compliant to LSB. Well, for example /usr/share/man, or /var/www or . Alexander Skwar -- How to quote: http://learn.to/quote (german) http://quote.6x.to (english) Homepage: http://www.digitalprojects.com | http://www.iso-top.de iso-top.de - Die günstige Art an Linux Distributionen zu kommen Uptime: 20 hours 10 minutes Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] Fundamental problem with Linux on the mass markey desktop?
On Saturday 08 September 2001 00:43, you wrote: The constantly changing APIs/libraries. Moving from mdk7.2 to 8.0 required a complete reinstall to make sure no ghosts from the past remain to cause problems. This is because massive amounts of upgraded libraries were introduced, and many directories were moved. As we have seen so many threads here on this list, upgrading a mdk7.2 system in these 8.0 days requires compiling SRPMs, and many times, they won't work because of the aforementioned upgraded libraries and moved directories. Just recently, I upgraded from KDE 2.1.1 to 2.2. *Definitely* not something that non-geeks would ever contemplate or be able to do. Noone could contemplate it on a dial-up line. Take for example my wife. She's been using the same Win98 box with Office97 for 3 years. The only upgrade has been to IE5.5. She *likes* it that way. Could she be a happy, unchanging linux desktop user for 3 years from 1998? Don't think so. Could she be a happy linux desktop user for the 3 years starting now? NO. Soon, qt3 will be released. Then KDE3 will be re- leased. Then will RPMs (or even SRPMs) created for KDE3 run on her 2.2. Of course not, since mdk can't create *RPMs of new programs for old releases, even the last one, since the new programs use so many new features. Only when you can install a new RPM on a 3yo kernel/desktop will linux be ready for the mass market desktop. Comments? Windows XP is intended to Replace Win9x Family, soon all win9x applications will be a ghost from the past. DOS its gone... no more support, its a fact of life. Things change so quickly that is really hard to keep up with all of them. And Linux will soon replace many desktops... that also is a fact! ;-) sk Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] Fundamental problem with Linux on the mass markey desktop?
makes you wonder tho.. since dos is gone why not release the source freely? hmmm, maybe some secrets in the closet? better to burn down the neighborhood than to have the skeleton found? On Saturday 08 September 2001 13:09, you had thoughts to the concept of: On Saturday 08 September 2001 00:43, you wrote: The constantly changing APIs/libraries. Moving from mdk7.2 to 8.0 required a complete reinstall to make sure no ghosts from the past remain to cause problems. This is because massive amounts of upgraded libraries were introduced, and many directories were moved. As we have seen so many threads here on this list, upgrading a mdk7.2 system in these 8.0 days requires compiling SRPMs, and many times, they won't work because of the aforementioned upgraded libraries and moved directories. Just recently, I upgraded from KDE 2.1.1 to 2.2. *Definitely* not something that non-geeks would ever contemplate or be able to do. Noone could contemplate it on a dial-up line. Take for example my wife. She's been using the same Win98 box with Office97 for 3 years. The only upgrade has been to IE5.5. She *likes* it that way. Could she be a happy, unchanging linux desktop user for 3 years from 1998? Don't think so. Could she be a happy linux desktop user for the 3 years starting now? NO. Soon, qt3 will be released. Then KDE3 will be re- leased. Then will RPMs (or even SRPMs) created for KDE3 run on her 2.2. Of course not, since mdk can't create *RPMs of new programs for old releases, even the last one, since the new programs use so many new features. Only when you can install a new RPM on a 3yo kernel/desktop will linux be ready for the mass market desktop. Comments? Windows XP is intended to Replace Win9x Family, soon all win9x applications will be a ghost from the past. DOS its gone... no more support, its a fact of life. Things change so quickly that is really hard to keep up with all of them. And Linux will soon replace many desktops... that also is a fact! ;-) sk Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; name=message.footer Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Description: Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] Fundamental problem with Linux on the mass markey desktop?
On Sat, 8 Sep 2001 15:43, you wrote: Just recently, I upgraded from KDE 2.1.1 to 2.2. *Definitely* not something that non-geeks would ever contemplate or be able to do. Noone could contemplate it on a dial-up line. poohba!!! Not only have I upgraded to KDE 2.2 via modem, but have also ditched that and gone to texstar's KDE, and am also running most of cooker -by dialup. I guess you don't remember downloading anything from a BBS at 300baud, do you (aaah Wildcat!!!)?? cheers Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] Fundamental problem with Linux on the mass markey desktop?
On Sun, 9 Sep 2001 07:37, you wrote: On Sat, 8 Sep 2001 15:43, you wrote: Just recently, I upgraded from KDE 2.1.1 to 2.2. *Definitely* not something that non-geeks would ever contemplate or be able to do. Noone could contemplate it on a dial-up line. poohba!!! Not only have I upgraded to KDE 2.2 via modem, but have also ditched that and gone to texstar's KDE, and am also running most of cooker -by dialup. I guess you don't remember downloading anything from a BBS at 300baud, do you (aaah Wildcat!!!)?? cheers That would depend on what sort of deal you have with your ISP. Last year I downloaded every package required to update to 7.2 which took about 5 days. I was also *not* paying per MB then. This year I ordered the CD's as the update to 8.0 would have cost me around $200 to download the individual packages. Unless a package is released as a security update, I no longer download from cooker either. -- CYA, Muzza. Mandrake Linux 8.0 Kernel version 2.4.7-12.3mdk Current Linux uptime: 7 days 16 hours 24 minutes. Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] Fundamental problem with Linux on the mass markey desktop?
Ron Johnson wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 The constantly changing APIs/libraries. Moving from mdk7.2 to 8.0 required a complete reinstall to make sure no ghosts from the past remain to cause problems. This is because massive amounts of upgraded libraries were introduced, and many directories were moved. As we have seen so many threads here on this list, upgrading a mdk7.2 system in these 8.0 days requires compiling SRPMs, and many times, they won't work because of the aforementioned upgraded libraries and moved directories. Just recently, I upgraded from KDE 2.1.1 to 2.2. *Definitely* not something that non-geeks would ever contemplate or be able to do. Noone could contemplate it on a dial-up line. Take for example my wife. She's been using the same Win98 box with Office97 for 3 years. The only upgrade has been to IE5.5. She *likes* it that way. Could she be a happy, unchanging linux desktop user for 3 years from 1998? Don't think so. Could she be a happy linux desktop user for the 3 years starting now? NO. Soon, qt3 will be released. Then KDE3 will be re- leased. Then will RPMs (or even SRPMs) created for KDE3 run on her 2.2. Of course not, since mdk can't create *RPMs of new programs for old releases, even the last one, since the new programs use so many new features. Only when you can install a new RPM on a 3yo kernel/desktop will linux be ready for the mass market desktop. Comments? Hi, I am sorry but I really have to disagree with you. I started out using Mandrake 7.0 and have been using Mandrake releases ever since. The latest version 8.0 despite it's very few (but very,very annoying newtork set-up bugs) is an OS and desktop that I would quite happy to use for three years without changing it. It makes windows software look positively clunkey and as for ease of use if you are a windows type USER and not a geek as you put it the complexity of it is not relevent. I was so impressed with 8.0 I decided to use it at my workplace; in combination with Star Office it does most of what windows can do and in the majority of cases a good deal faster and intuitively. On the point of the three year update why should your dear wife be unhappy with keeping KDE for three years since the only change she has had is to the internet browser? My goodness you have a choice of at least three different browsers and as for desktops I think there are probably five (although I haven't counted) I don't have the Power Pack but I suspect there will be more than a few more on that. Remember all this is in one release. I have to confess that when I started out with Linux I had similar views but I was set straight by Civeleme and now admit to being a convert, there is no way I would want to go back to windows blues. Notwithstanding that Microsoft are deserving of the fate of Sodom and Gommorah for the way that they conduct their business. (Sorry couldn't resist it after some of their latest stunts). How will Linux go forward? That is the question in my mind having realised that the standard of the OS is more capable of competing against the best commercial offerings. The greatest hurdle is the capitalist society in which many of us live. I believe that this list (and the Linux cause) would be better served by lively minds trying come up with means of promoting the Linux cause AND making a living rather than posting deliberately provocative and negative emails. The GPL is a most wonderful thing but it will take minds as skilful as those that conceived it to get the best from it. I believe that it may be the older citizens of some societies that might provide the key. I know many old people who have taken up computing in their 60's or after retirement, many of these have grandchildren. Imagine if you will a Linux provider writing or porting some of those little educational games that I recall buying for my childrens edification when there was only DOS. Grandfather showing little Billie how to make the tree get bigger by spelling the word right and all the time expounding the virtues of the GPL to the childs father and how if anything goes wrong someone just dials up from the internet and fixes it for them. Alas not for free but for a modest sum. To some this may be an idealistic image but it is one that Linux and the FSF can honestly claim for itself and one which Microsoft certainly cannot. Colin H Close P.S. My apologies to any that are offended by this post. Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] Fundamental problem with Linux on the mass markey desktop?
C.H. You appear to have your head in the sand. I love Linux, I love it more than I tolerate Windows, but changes must be made. This is because I eschew a world run by Microsoft, not because I advocate it. I should be able to *upgrade* to another version of Linux, not because Windows can do this (effectively they cannot), but because I am going to invest more of myself intosetting up my Linux box, to be exactly what I want, than I will spend banging my head against the brick wall that is Windows. Are there bugs in Linux apps? Yes. Are they fixed rapidly? Yes. Therefore does it make sense to keep the same version of apps for years? Of course not! I am responding to you in KMail 2.1.2, which is wonderful; compared to what I am using now the earlier version of KMail was atrocious (comparisons with MS crap aside), and here is the salient point, compared with what will be available, this is severely lacking. So what do we do but to keep receiving the great bounties of upgrades? I mean these are real, measurable improvements, not marketting gimmicks. Why would you pass them up? mg On Sunday 09 September 2001 01:58, C.H. Close wrote: Ron Johnson wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 The constantly changing APIs/libraries. Moving from mdk7.2 to 8.0 required a complete reinstall to make sure no ghosts from the past remain to cause problems. This is because massive amounts of upgraded libraries were introduced, and many directories were moved. As we have seen so many threads here on this list, upgrading a mdk7.2 system in these 8.0 days requires compiling SRPMs, and many times, they won't work because of the aforementioned upgraded libraries and moved directories. Just recently, I upgraded from KDE 2.1.1 to 2.2. *Definitely* not something that non-geeks would ever contemplate or be able to do. Noone could contemplate it on a dial-up line. Take for example my wife. She's been using the same Win98 box with Office97 for 3 years. The only upgrade has been to IE5.5. She *likes* it that way. Could she be a happy, unchanging linux desktop user for 3 years from 1998? Don't think so. Could she be a happy linux desktop user for the 3 years starting now? NO. Soon, qt3 will be released. Then KDE3 will be re- leased. Then will RPMs (or even SRPMs) created for KDE3 run on her 2.2. Of course not, since mdk can't create *RPMs of new programs for old releases, even the last one, since the new programs use so many new features. Only when you can install a new RPM on a 3yo kernel/desktop will linux be ready for the mass market desktop. Comments? Hi, I am sorry but I really have to disagree with you. I started out using Mandrake 7.0 and have been using Mandrake releases ever since. The latest version 8.0 despite it's very few (but very,very annoying newtork set-up bugs) is an OS and desktop that I would quite happy to use for three years without changing it. It makes windows software look positively clunkey and as for ease of use if you are a windows type USER and not a geek as you put it the complexity of it is not relevent. I was so impressed with 8.0 I decided to use it at my workplace; in combination with Star Office it does most of what windows can do and in the majority of cases a good deal faster and intuitively. On the point of the three year update why should your dear wife be unhappy with keeping KDE for three years since the only change she has had is to the internet browser? My goodness you have a choice of at least three different browsers and as for desktops I think there are probably five (although I haven't counted) I don't have the Power Pack but I suspect there will be more than a few more on that. Remember all this is in one release. I have to confess that when I started out with Linux I had similar views but I was set straight by Civeleme and now admit to being a convert, there is no way I would want to go back to windows blues. Notwithstanding that Microsoft are deserving of the fate of Sodom and Gommorah for the way that they conduct their business. (Sorry couldn't resist it after some of their latest stunts). How will Linux go forward? That is the question in my mind having realised that the standard of the OS is more capable of competing against the best commercial offerings. The greatest hurdle is the capitalist society in which many of us live. I believe that this list (and the Linux cause) would be better served by lively minds trying come up with means of promoting the Linux cause AND making a living rather than posting deliberately provocative and negative emails. The GPL is a most wonderful thing but it will take minds as skilful as those that conceived it to get the best from it. I believe that it may be the older citizens of some societies that might provide the key. I know many old people who have taken up computing in their 60's or after
Re: [expert] Fundamental problem with Linux on the mass markey desktop?
On Saturday 08 September 2001 12:38, Michael D. Viron wrote: At 05:01 PM 09/08/2001 +0200, joy_ping wrote: On Sat, 8 Sep 2001, Ron Johnson wrote: Moving from mdk7.2 to 8.0 required a complete reinstall to make sure no ghosts from the past remain to cause problems. this is a mandrake thing i think. cause they have some misteries directory organisation, and they changed it so hard, that it is completly different from the further releases. its not only unusable for other software, its unusable for the mandrake-made-updatetools too!! The Mysterious Directory Organizaion you speak of is available at various web sites. I happen to keep a copy because I refer to it often in my job as a QA engineer. http://perso.mandrakesoft.com/~civileme/fhs-2.2.pdf This is what is known as standardization It is required by the linux standard base. It is an effort to make it possible for independent software vendors to write applications that will run on linux, not just a specific distribution platform. Now as far as integrated menus, that is used by Debian, Connectiva, and Mandrake. Some Desktops don't like it, preferring their own menuiong systems, and we have tried to accommodate the one making the most noise by allowing users to choose under GNOME which menu they wish to see. Obviously, anyone installing software not supplied by mandrake, particularly on desktops, is likely to have less than fully supported upgrade. The Update is less than satisfactory in any case, and seems to remain so, but the story is no different for anyone else. Remember the horros stories of those who did an upgrade from W95 to W98? And if they had 3rd part software? From 7.2 to 8.0 is a particularly steep grade. New libraries, especially glibc which broke binary compatibility with what went before, rpm 4 instead of rpm 3, a new compiler, a new library naming policy (to prevent the same situation from occurring again, and a new packaging policy dictated by the new library naming policy). This made the UPgrade really steep, because one package in 7.2 might be three in 8.0, something no update program was equipped to deal with including rpm. But there is no mystery on any of this, just ask, and read. Civileme Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] Fundamental problem with Linux on the mass markey desktop?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Saturday 08 September 2001 06:37 pm, John Haywood wrote: On Sat, 8 Sep 2001 15:43, you wrote: Just recently, I upgraded from KDE 2.1.1 to 2.2. *Definitely* not something that non-geeks would ever contemplate or be able to do. Noone could contemplate it on a dial-up line. poohba!!! Not only have I upgraded to KDE 2.2 via modem, but have also ditched that and gone to texstar's KDE, and am also running most of cooker -by dialup. You have nothing else to do with your phone line, or have gotten a 2nd modem-only line. I guess you don't remember downloading anything from a BBS at 300baud, do you (aaah Wildcat!!!)?? Sure! On my KayPro 2 with an AnchorSignalman direct connect modem. One night, unforfortunately, I fell asleep while d/l'ing a set of big files. Wow. That was a *big* phone bill for a college student. - -- ++ | Ron Johnson, Jr.Home: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | | Jefferson, LA USA | || | 495,632 sq mi are needed for 6 billion people to live, 4 ! ! persons per lot, in lots that are 60'x150'.| ! That is ~ California, Texas and Missouri. ! ! Alternatively, France, Spain and The United Kingdom. | ++ -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE7mvFZjTz5dS9Us5wRAomhAJ9dKqU6A1knGPbAgDpYcPP5TT2LQQCdHCQc e+bP+vr7spuDmxZkFbuFzsU= =1U8g -END PGP SIGNATURE- Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] Fundamental problem with Linux on the mass markey desktop?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 I must agree with mike. The only reason to use the same s/w for 3 years is if it's adequate. For the wife's limited needs, Win98 O97 are adequate. IE4 was not. IE5 was not. IE5.5 is. However, I've installed new programs like digital camera utilities. Konq still has some formatting and jsp issues. History keeping (like Moz's Task|Tolls|History) is needed. KMail is adequate, as is the KDE desktop (don't know/care about GNOME; personal choice). When KDE3 comes out. I must upgrade all those libraries, or be left behind regarding new programs that come out. (Hopefully children's programs!!!) Too bad remote/network sound doesn't exist. I'd put an LTSP floppy in the wife's Compaq, and sound would come out of the speakers!!! On Saturday 08 September 2001 10:02 pm, mike wrote: C.H. You appear to have your head in the sand. I love Linux, I love it more than I tolerate Windows, but changes must be made. This is because I eschew a world run by Microsoft, not because I advocate it. I should be able to *upgrade* to another version of Linux, not because Windows can do this (effectively they cannot), but because I am going to invest more of myself intosetting up my Linux box, to be exactly what I want, than I will spend banging my head against the brick wall that is Windows. Are there bugs in Linux apps? Yes. Are they fixed rapidly? Yes. Therefore does it make sense to keep the same version of apps for years? Of course not! I am responding to you in KMail 2.1.2, which is wonderful; compared to what I am using now the earlier version of KMail was atrocious (comparisons with MS crap aside), and here is the salient point, compared with what will be available, this is severely lacking. So what do we do but to keep receiving the great bounties of upgrades? I mean these are real, measurable improvements, not marketting gimmicks. Why would you pass them up? mg On Sunday 09 September 2001 01:58, C.H. Close wrote: Ron Johnson wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 The constantly changing APIs/libraries. Moving from mdk7.2 to 8.0 required a complete reinstall to make sure no ghosts from the past remain to cause problems. This is because massive amounts of upgraded libraries were introduced, and many directories were moved. As we have seen so many threads here on this list, upgrading a mdk7.2 system in these 8.0 days requires compiling SRPMs, and many times, they won't work because of the aforementioned upgraded libraries and moved directories. Just recently, I upgraded from KDE 2.1.1 to 2.2. *Definitely* not something that non-geeks would ever contemplate or be able to do. Noone could contemplate it on a dial-up line. Take for example my wife. She's been using the same Win98 box with Office97 for 3 years. The only upgrade has been to IE5.5. She *likes* it that way. Could she be a happy, unchanging linux desktop user for 3 years from 1998? Don't think so. Could she be a happy linux desktop user for the 3 years starting now? NO. Soon, qt3 will be released. Then KDE3 will be re- leased. Then will RPMs (or even SRPMs) created for KDE3 run on her 2.2. Of course not, since mdk can't create *RPMs of new programs for old releases, even the last one, since the new programs use so many new features. Only when you can install a new RPM on a 3yo kernel/desktop will linux be ready for the mass market desktop. Comments? Hi, I am sorry but I really have to disagree with you. I started out using Mandrake 7.0 and have been using Mandrake releases ever since. The latest version 8.0 despite it's very few (but very,very annoying newtork set-up bugs) is an OS and desktop that I would quite happy to use for three years without changing it. It makes windows software look positively clunkey and as for ease of use if you are a windows type USER and not a geek as you put it the complexity of it is not relevent. I was so impressed with 8.0 I decided to use it at my workplace; in combination with Star Office it does most of what windows can do and in the majority of cases a good deal faster and intuitively. On the point of the three year update why should your dear wife be unhappy with keeping KDE for three years since the only change she has had is to the internet browser? My goodness you have a choice of at least three different browsers and as for desktops I think there are probably five (although I haven't counted) I don't have the Power Pack but I suspect there will be more than a few more on that. Remember all this is in one release. I have to confess that when I started out with Linux I had similar views but I was set straight by Civeleme and now admit to being a convert, there is no way I would want to go back to windows blues. Notwithstanding that Microsoft are
