Re: [expert] List Bitching - some suggestions
On Thu, 09 Mar 2000, you wrote: > - Original Message - > From: Jean-Michel Dault <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: Ramon Gandia <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Thursday, March 09, 2000 7:24 PM > Subject: Re: [expert] List Bitching > > > > > > Maybe we can add a signature to the mailing list messages so that everyone > > sees mandrakeuser.org on each e-mail? > > > > Jean-Michel Dault > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Perhaps you can have the sig point to a www.linuxmandrake.com (or directly > to a www.mandrakeuser.org) page that has 1) a link to mandrakeuser.org 2) a > brief HOWTO on how to search the mail list archives 3) a link to the new > Mandrake tutorial pages 4) a brief HOWTO on how to search DejaNews and 5) a > link to the LDP search engine. You could even put the link to this special > page in the bookmarks for kfm/konqueror and Netscape. It would certainly > help answer a lot of questions. > > Hoyt I have seen other lists that do exactly this, although without the HOWTO. A simple reminder to search the list archive prior to posting and a pointer to the archive can be a worthwhile increase in bandwith use and it only takes a line or two. My only complaint here is that many archives have rather clumsy search capability and some have none, other than browsing. It needs to be easy before people will use it. -- The spirit of man is the candle of the Lord, searching all the inward parts of the belly. (Proverbs 20:27) -- Thomas K. Gamble [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [expert] List Bitching
Audreywell said. Alan Audrey Beck wrote: > > "Carl A. Cook" wrote: > ... > > Did I sound angry? Notice I said "long-running" and modem BRAND. > > Of course there should be questions about PPP and use with Linux. > > And no questions should be off-limits. But why belabor all the various > > brands there are when there are surely more important issues people > > would rather ask about but are reluctant to? > ... > > Well, as long as I can get information, I'll keep reading it. I have NO > problem with reading about modems/brands/good/bad/yes/no etc. I've > learned a lot reading them. If it's something you don't want to read, > then don't read it. Just pick from topics that sound good to you. And > it does apply to Mandrake. Maybe I've read it before in the list, but > that doesn't mean that someone new has. Yes, look in the archives. But > how would they even know such a discussion even existed? > > Keep the flow of information. Even about what modems work or not and > why.
Re: [expert] List Bitching
"Carl A. Cook" wrote: ... > Did I sound angry? Notice I said "long-running" and modem BRAND. > Of course there should be questions about PPP and use with Linux. > And no questions should be off-limits. But why belabor all the various > brands there are when there are surely more important issues people > would rather ask about but are reluctant to? ... Well, as long as I can get information, I'll keep reading it. I have NO problem with reading about modems/brands/good/bad/yes/no etc. I've learned a lot reading them. If it's something you don't want to read, then don't read it. Just pick from topics that sound good to you. And it does apply to Mandrake. Maybe I've read it before in the list, but that doesn't mean that someone new has. Yes, look in the archives. But how would they even know such a discussion even existed? Keep the flow of information. Even about what modems work or not and why.
Re: [expert] List Bitching
John Aldrich wrote: > > > I think a good compromise would be a WEEKLY posting of the location > of the FAQ. Especially for the first couple months. Perhaps, after a > generous period we could slow it down from a weekly to a semi-monthly > to a monthly posting. > John John think about this for a minute. Just because WE get used to the posts, and change it to semi-monthly, does not mean that newbies don't pop up all the time. I actually think that DAILY, plus sig files are the way to go. Most newcomers will sign up, save the welcome message without reading it (no need to read it until its time to unsubscribe), lurk for a day or even a few hours, then ask the QUESTION. If the alert to the fax is over 24 hours away, that person is just not going to see it. We will then have another WinModem question on the list, etc. The suggestions I hear are: 1. Daily postings of LINKS to the FAQ. 2. Weekly or less frequent LINKS to the FAQ. 3. The actual FAQ itself. 4. Signature files appended to all posts with the LINK to FAQ. The idea being to save bandwidth, improve signal-to-noise ratio for those that remain here, and reduce the aggravation factor to newcomers (newbies as well as users of other distros that have migrated to Mandrake). I am in favor of 1+4, or just 1 if Mandrake cannot add 4. This issue was discussed endlessly in the RedHat list, and the end result was that RedHat Inc would NOT do anything, therefore the idea died on the vine. YOu cannot actually do anything about this issue unless Mandrake gives at least its tacit consent. To do it without their OK would be a good way to Tick the Frogs and get kicked off the list. :-). -- Ramon Gandia = Sysadmin == Nook Net http://www.nook.net[EMAIL PROTECTED] 285 West First Avenue tel. 907-443-7575 P.O. Box 970 fax. 907-443-2487 Nome, Alaska 99762-0970 Alaska Toll Free. 888-443-7525
Re: [expert] List Bitching
On Thu, 9 Mar 2000, Hoyt wrote: > > - Original Message - > From: Rich Clark <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Thursday, March 09, 2000 6:04 AM > Subject: Re: [expert] List Bitching > > > > > Maybe what the list needs is a FAQ page posted somewhere. Someone > > subscribes to the list, they get the nice new welcome note from the list > > manager that gives them pointers about how to post, what to post and where > > to look for answers *before* they post the same question that's been asked > > and answered countless times before. Everyone else has a FAQ, why don't > > we? > > > > This has been suggested before, a volunteer actually wrote a doc about it > and, as it has happened so many times, the effort was officially ignored. > Given my irregular correspondence with Mandrake about some of these issues, > they seem to misunderstand what the users are saying and apply inappropriate > remedies. Still, they have made significant improvements in documentation > and support. > > As long as I am writing, let me state that the purposes of this mail list > could better be served in a discussion forum venue. That would provide an > easier way to follow threads and be easier to moderate. Many companies > sponsor their own discussion forums and servers, why not Mandrake? > > And why has Mandrake not done anything more significant on the docs side? I > gather from this list and the cooker list that Mandrake collectively has a > predisposition to add the latest gadgets and features, often embracing beta > code, at the expense of documentation in order to rapidly differentiate > itself from RedHat (there's some Mandrake corporate angst about that). A > number of bugs or issued remain unresolved while new packages are added at a > frenetic pace. On the other hand, I have seen bug fixes be applied within > minutes of a post to this list or to the cooker list; it's just a matter of > priorities. Mandrake sets the priorities. > > My suggestion is for the Mandrake users to reclaim their Linux birthright > and solve the problems themselves. We can do this by supporting Tom at > MandrakeUser.Org. This support can be accomplished by 1) identifying those > annoying bugs and suggesting solutions (and creating patches if possible) > and 2) writing HOWTOs and documentation. In other words, we should become > part of the solution. > > Hoyt > > > > > __ > NetZero - Defenders of the Free World > Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at > http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html > Excellent idea. I'll think on it a while and see what I can come up with personally. -- Rich Clark Sign the petition at http://www.libranet.com/petition.html Help bring us more Linux Drivers
Re: [expert] List Bitching
On Thu, 09 Mar 2000, you wrote: > Maybe we can add a signature to the mailing list messages so that everyone > sees mandrakeuser.org on each e-mail? > Heh. Yeahright. I'm subbed to the KDE list. Do you have any idea how many times people post there requesting to be taken off the list? Sheesh...the blasted removal instructions are IN THE FOOTER! People are just stupid. Unless you post a message with "FAQ" in the subject, most of 'em won't see it. And most of THOSE won't see the FAQ message...but a few will. John
Re: [expert] List Bitching
On Thu, 09 Mar 2000, you wrote: > No daily, please! Monthly, rather. > > Perhaps the message that goes out when one has sucessfully joined the list > can include a pointer to the FAQ for the benefit of new subscribers. This > was not done when I joined the list late last year. > > Another way to handle the problem is for the mail list processor to insert > a line at the top of each message, something to the effect of "Use the > FAQ, Luke! " should do it. > > I think a good compromise would be a WEEKLY posting of the location of the FAQ. Especially for the first couple months. Perhaps, after a generous period we could slow it down from a weekly to a semi-monthly to a monthly posting. John
Re: [expert] List Bitching
Jean-Michel Dault wrote: > > Maybe we can add a signature to the mailing list messages so that everyone > sees mandrakeuser.org on each e-mail? > > Jean-Michel Dault > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Sounds like a Definte Winner! I never even knew where the FAQ was until a week after I signed up on the list. That would be Perfect! -- Albert E. Whale [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.hky.com/aewhale.html -- Sr. Database, Internet and Unix Systems Consultant Pennsylvania Parenthood Initiative - PAPI http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/4688/papi.htm The Father's Rights Network - http://www.hky.com/frn/frnhome.html Parents without Partners - Past President Co-Founder of The Purple Heart Foundation
Re: [expert] List Bitching
Jean-Michel Dault wrote: > > Maybe we can add a signature to the mailing list messages so that everyone > sees mandrakeuser.org on each e-mail? Redhat does/did that. It was at the very end, below the sender's regular signature with the obligatory ASCII-toons, etc. Not too many people paid attention to it. If you frequent Usenet, or othr lists, they have periodic postings with Subjects like Mandrake-FAQ. These are heads-up to readers, specially newcomers. As was mentioned, I think that a daily FAQ will easily save one or more messages a day. If the Subject is carefully chosen, it will be easy to filter out (Mandrake and FAQ are both bad words to filter on. But maybe Mandrake-O-FAQ might work. Procmail users can comment on this. But we need to hear from Mandrake, Inc. on this. It is their list, after all. -- Ramon Gandia = Sysadmin == Nook Net http://www.nook.net[EMAIL PROTECTED] 285 West First Avenue tel. 907-443-7575 P.O. Box 970 fax. 907-443-2487 Nome, Alaska 99762-0970 Alaska Toll Free. 888-443-7525
Re: [expert] List Bitching - some suggestions
- Original Message - From: Jean-Michel Dault <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Ramon Gandia <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Thursday, March 09, 2000 7:24 PM Subject: Re: [expert] List Bitching > > Maybe we can add a signature to the mailing list messages so that everyone > sees mandrakeuser.org on each e-mail? > > Jean-Michel Dault > [EMAIL PROTECTED] Perhaps you can have the sig point to a www.linuxmandrake.com (or directly to a www.mandrakeuser.org) page that has 1) a link to mandrakeuser.org 2) a brief HOWTO on how to search the mail list archives 3) a link to the new Mandrake tutorial pages 4) a brief HOWTO on how to search DejaNews and 5) a link to the LDP search engine. You could even put the link to this special page in the bookmarks for kfm/konqueror and Netscape. It would certainly help answer a lot of questions. Hoyt __ NetZero - Defenders of the Free World Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html
Re: [expert] List Bitching
Maybe we can add a signature to the mailing list messages so that everyone sees mandrakeuser.org on each e-mail? Jean-Michel Dault [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Thu, 9 Mar 2000, Ramon Gandia wrote: > Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2000 02:56:20 -0900 > From: Ramon Gandia <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Re: [expert] List Bitching > > Rich Clark wrote: > > > > Maybe what the list needs is a FAQ page posted somewhere. Someone > > subscribes to the list, they get the nice new welcome note from the list > > manager that gives them pointers about how to post, what to post and where > > to look for answers *before* they post the same question that's been asked > > and answered countless times before. Everyone else has a FAQ, why don't > > we? > > We have a FAQ - sort of - at http://www.mandrakeuser.org > What we need is someone that can set up a Cron job to send an > email on a daily basis to THIS (and the Newbie) list advertising > the FAQ. > > This same suggestion was made a year and a half ago on the RedHat > list, and there was a tremendous outcry against it. The reasoning > went that there was too much email messages as it was without > cluttering it more with a daily "here is the FAQ" message. Some > of us thought that one daily message or maybe three times a week, > would reduce the overall number of messages posted asking > questions. > > At any rate, over at RedHat, DJB and the powers that be nixed > the idea. Perhaps it would be better received at Mandrake. The > cron generated email message is trivial to implement. Whatever > is done is going to require the approval of Mandrake as this is > THEIR list. > > > -- > Ramon Gandia = Sysadmin == Nook Net > http://www.nook.net[EMAIL PROTECTED] > 285 West First Avenue tel. 907-443-7575 > P.O. Box 970 fax. 907-443-2487 > Nome, Alaska 99762-0970 Alaska Toll Free. 888-443-7525 >
Re: [expert] List Bitching
if daily saves one message it breaks even, if two then we are well ahead!! - Original Message - From: "Charles Curley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Thursday, March 09, 2000 12:51 PM Subject: Re: [expert] List Bitching > No daily, please! Monthly, rather. > > Perhaps the message that goes out when one has sucessfully joined the list > can include a pointer to the FAQ for the benefit of new subscribers. This > was not done when I joined the list late last year. > > Another way to handle the problem is for the mail list processor to insert > a line at the top of each message, something to the effect of "Use the > FAQ, Luke! " should do it. > > > On Thu, Mar 09, 2000 at 02:56:20AM -0900, Ramon Gandia wrote: > -> Rich Clark wrote: > -> > > -> > Maybe what the list needs is a FAQ page posted somewhere. Someone > -> > subscribes to the list, they get the nice new welcome note from the list > -> > manager that gives them pointers about how to post, what to post and where > -> > to look for answers *before* they post the same question that's been asked > -> > and answered countless times before. Everyone else has a FAQ, why don't > -> > we? > -> > -> We have a FAQ - sort of - at http://www.mandrakeuser.org > -> What we need is someone that can set up a Cron job to send an > -> email on a daily basis to THIS (and the Newbie) list advertising > -> the FAQ. > > -- > > -- C^2 > > No windows were crashed in the making of this email. > > Looking for fine software and/or web pages? > http://w3.trib.com/~ccurley
Re: [expert] List Bitching
Hoytcheck this out if you think they've been idle concerning docs. http://www.linux-mandrake.com/en/fdoc.php3 Alan Hoyt wrote: > > - Original Message - > From: Rich Clark <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Thursday, March 09, 2000 6:04 AM > Subject: Re: [expert] List Bitching > > > Maybe what the list needs is a FAQ page posted somewhere. Someone > > subscribes to the list, they get the nice new welcome note from the list > > manager that gives them pointers about how to post, what to post and where > > to look for answers *before* they post the same question that's been asked > > and answered countless times before. Everyone else has a FAQ, why don't > > we? > > > > This has been suggested before, a volunteer actually wrote a doc about it > and, as it has happened so many times, the effort was officially ignored. > Given my irregular correspondence with Mandrake about some of these issues, > they seem to misunderstand what the users are saying and apply inappropriate > remedies. Still, they have made significant improvements in documentation > and support. > > As long as I am writing, let me state that the purposes of this mail list > could better be served in a discussion forum venue. That would provide an > easier way to follow threads and be easier to moderate. Many companies > sponsor their own discussion forums and servers, why not Mandrake? > > And why has Mandrake not done anything more significant on the docs side? I > gather from this list and the cooker list that Mandrake collectively has a > predisposition to add the latest gadgets and features, often embracing beta > code, at the expense of documentation in order to rapidly differentiate > itself from RedHat (there's some Mandrake corporate angst about that). A > number of bugs or issued remain unresolved while new packages are added at a > frenetic pace. On the other hand, I have seen bug fixes be applied within > minutes of a post to this list or to the cooker list; it's just a matter of > priorities. Mandrake sets the priorities. > > My suggestion is for the Mandrake users to reclaim their Linux birthright > and solve the problems themselves. We can do this by supporting Tom at > MandrakeUser.Org. This support can be accomplished by 1) identifying those > annoying bugs and suggesting solutions (and creating patches if possible) > and 2) writing HOWTOs and documentation. In other words, we should become > part of the solution. > > Hoyt > > __ > NetZero - Defenders of the Free World > Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at > http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html
Re: [expert] List Bitching
No daily, please! Monthly, rather. Perhaps the message that goes out when one has sucessfully joined the list can include a pointer to the FAQ for the benefit of new subscribers. This was not done when I joined the list late last year. Another way to handle the problem is for the mail list processor to insert a line at the top of each message, something to the effect of "Use the FAQ, Luke! " should do it. On Thu, Mar 09, 2000 at 02:56:20AM -0900, Ramon Gandia wrote: -> Rich Clark wrote: -> > -> > Maybe what the list needs is a FAQ page posted somewhere. Someone -> > subscribes to the list, they get the nice new welcome note from the list -> > manager that gives them pointers about how to post, what to post and where -> > to look for answers *before* they post the same question that's been asked -> > and answered countless times before. Everyone else has a FAQ, why don't -> > we? -> -> We have a FAQ - sort of - at http://www.mandrakeuser.org -> What we need is someone that can set up a Cron job to send an -> email on a daily basis to THIS (and the Newbie) list advertising -> the FAQ. -- -- C^2 No windows were crashed in the making of this email. Looking for fine software and/or web pages? http://w3.trib.com/~ccurley
Re: [expert] List Bitching
I think advertising the existence of a LM FAQ is a good idea. Richard On Thu, 09 Mar 2000, you wrote: > Rich Clark wrote: > > > > Maybe what the list needs is a FAQ page posted somewhere. Someone > > subscribes to the list, they get the nice new welcome note from the list > > manager that gives them pointers about how to post, what to post and where > > to look for answers *before* they post the same question that's been asked > > and answered countless times before. Everyone else has a FAQ, why don't > > we? > > We have a FAQ - sort of - at http://www.mandrakeuser.org > What we need is someone that can set up a Cron job to send an > email on a daily basis to THIS (and the Newbie) list advertising > the FAQ. > > This same suggestion was made a year and a half ago on the RedHat > list, and there was a tremendous outcry against it. The reasoning > went that there was too much email messages as it was without > cluttering it more with a daily "here is the FAQ" message. Some > of us thought that one daily message or maybe three times a week, > would reduce the overall number of messages posted asking > questions. > > At any rate, over at RedHat, DJB and the powers that be nixed > the idea. Perhaps it would be better received at Mandrake. The > cron generated email message is trivial to implement. Whatever > is done is going to require the approval of Mandrake as this is > THEIR list. > > > -- > Ramon Gandia = Sysadmin == Nook Net > http://www.nook.net[EMAIL PROTECTED] > 285 West First Avenue tel. 907-443-7575 > P.O. Box 970 fax. 907-443-2487 > Nome, Alaska 99762-0970 Alaska Toll Free. 888-443-7525
Re: [expert] List Bitching
- Original Message - From: Rich Clark <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Thursday, March 09, 2000 6:04 AM Subject: Re: [expert] List Bitching > Maybe what the list needs is a FAQ page posted somewhere. Someone > subscribes to the list, they get the nice new welcome note from the list > manager that gives them pointers about how to post, what to post and where > to look for answers *before* they post the same question that's been asked > and answered countless times before. Everyone else has a FAQ, why don't > we? > This has been suggested before, a volunteer actually wrote a doc about it and, as it has happened so many times, the effort was officially ignored. Given my irregular correspondence with Mandrake about some of these issues, they seem to misunderstand what the users are saying and apply inappropriate remedies. Still, they have made significant improvements in documentation and support. As long as I am writing, let me state that the purposes of this mail list could better be served in a discussion forum venue. That would provide an easier way to follow threads and be easier to moderate. Many companies sponsor their own discussion forums and servers, why not Mandrake? And why has Mandrake not done anything more significant on the docs side? I gather from this list and the cooker list that Mandrake collectively has a predisposition to add the latest gadgets and features, often embracing beta code, at the expense of documentation in order to rapidly differentiate itself from RedHat (there's some Mandrake corporate angst about that). A number of bugs or issued remain unresolved while new packages are added at a frenetic pace. On the other hand, I have seen bug fixes be applied within minutes of a post to this list or to the cooker list; it's just a matter of priorities. Mandrake sets the priorities. My suggestion is for the Mandrake users to reclaim their Linux birthright and solve the problems themselves. We can do this by supporting Tom at MandrakeUser.Org. This support can be accomplished by 1) identifying those annoying bugs and suggesting solutions (and creating patches if possible) and 2) writing HOWTOs and documentation. In other words, we should become part of the solution. Hoyt __ NetZero - Defenders of the Free World Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html
Re: [expert] List Bitching
On Thu, 09 Mar 2000, you wrote: > > > > We have a FAQ - sort of - at http://www.mandrakeuser.org > > What we need is someone that can set up a Cron job to send an > > email on a daily basis to THIS (and the Newbie) list advertising > > the FAQ. > > > Is this website listed in the welcome message that is sent out to new list > users? If not, maybe it should. I would not like having the same FAQ > emailed to me on daily basis. > Err...I think the idea was to send an email ADVERTISING the FAQ, not emailing the FAQ itself. John
Re: [expert] List Bitching
On Thu, 9 Mar 2000, Ramon Gandia wrote: > Rich Clark wrote: > > > > Maybe what the list needs is a FAQ page posted somewhere. Someone > > subscribes to the list, they get the nice new welcome note from the list > > manager that gives them pointers about how to post, what to post and where > > to look for answers *before* they post the same question that's been asked > > and answered countless times before. Everyone else has a FAQ, why don't > > we? > > We have a FAQ - sort of - at http://www.mandrakeuser.org > What we need is someone that can set up a Cron job to send an > email on a daily basis to THIS (and the Newbie) list advertising > the FAQ. > Is this website listed in the welcome message that is sent out to new list users? If not, maybe it should. I would not like having the same FAQ emailed to me on daily basis.
Re: [expert] List Bitching
Ramon Gandia wrote: > > Ivan Trail wrote: > > > > On Wed, 08 Mar 2000, you wrote: > > > > > > > > > And what is this long-running modem brand talk? May we please discuss >Linux-related issues? > > > Maybe people are uncomfortable to speak of what they really need for fear of >being flamed as > > > newbies, a practice of =assholes= who stink pretty bad after a while.(yeah, >I said that) > > > > I agree. I was on the newbie list for about a month and got tired of having > > 80-100 emails to sort through on the subject "installing linux". The list has > > it's place, and was a great source of help but after I got it installed I > > couldn't get a decent response on a tougher question. Here I have answered > > most of my problems by reading what other people have asked. > > > > I am not trying to start another flame, but here is my suggestion to remedy > > this problem: > > > > Impliment several, more specific, mailing lists. ie. one for installation > > help, one for driver development, one for people who actually like too much > > caffiene ;^) You get the point. I used to ber on atleast four different > > mailing lists from Red Hat at any one time. the redhat place has probably > > fifteen to twenty different lists to choose from. So maybe some of you experts > > in a specific area of linux could volunteer to host a mailing list. I would do > > so but I can't even find actors to help with the scripting language thing, thus > > I am far from an expert. > > > > just my two cents worth, with NO REFUNDS! > > And my 3 cents will make it a Nickel: > > These mailing lists have two sorts of people on it. Group 1 > are the newcomers that have legitimate questions to ask. Not > exacty Newbies, but 'newcomer.' Group 2 are the rest of the > grouchos that answer them or seek the Truth. > > You, sir, probably belong to neither group. You are looking at > a social place, and want to see ever expanding level of expertise > on this list. This is not the intent. The mailing lists have > a place, and it is to help the Mandrake user. By their very > nature, the people asking are those that do not know the > answers. > > There is an influx of new people all the time. It is wrong to > get angry or be dissapointed just because a Newcomer is having > problem with Modems, his WinModem don't work, or his PPP link > won't come up. We see these questions asked ALL THE TIME, and > they are going to be asked all the time each and every week > from now until Hell Freezes Over. That is the way it is. > Once the newcomer gets his questions answered, he will move > on or become one of the grouchos answering questions. > > To make it plain, I have received VERY LITTLE help from this > list, although I do get a surprise once in a while. I am > here to answer some questions. I am an ISP, and what I know > is often of help to some newcomers. Others on this list > know Perl, or PHP, or Sendmail, oretc. That is what is > all about. > > If you get tired of the Questions and their answers; if the > list is repetitive to you, or sounds trivial, then I would > say that you have outgrown it. Nothing to get angry about. > Hang around if you want, or move on. Maybe to return later. > > Linux is a long, tall ladder. We all climb this ladder of > learning. As we slowly climb, we see those above and ask for > help, and at the same time we reach down and help pull up > those below us. While we move up this ladder, we have to > recognize that new people are getting on the lower rungs all > the time. > > I, and a few others that pitched in, answered and discussed > some questions regarding Modemsand Supermount. Frankly, > I had posted about this four or five times already. And > it will happen again because next week, sure as all get out, > some newcomer will want to know how come his "SupraExpress > 56i PCI Modem will not be recognized or work with Linux". > So, it starts over. Thats the way it was, is, and will be. > > -- > Ramon Gandia = Sysadmin == Nook Net > http://www.nook.net[EMAIL PROTECTED] > 285 West First Avenue tel. 907-443-7575 > P.O. Box 970 fax. 907-443-2487 > Nome, Alaska 99762-0970 Alaska Toll Free. 888-443-7525 Amen from a newcomer. -- Dennis Robertson 2/2 Sylvia Street NOOSAVILLE QLD 4566 AUSTRALIA Phone: 61 7 54742343 Mobile: 0419 535539 Fax: Phone first for setup.
Re: [expert] List Bitching
On Thu, 9 Mar 2000, Ramon Gandia wrote: > Rich Clark wrote: > > > > Maybe what the list needs is a FAQ page posted somewhere. Someone > > subscribes to the list, they get the nice new welcome note from the list > > manager that gives them pointers about how to post, what to post and where > > to look for answers *before* they post the same question that's been asked > > and answered countless times before. Everyone else has a FAQ, why don't > > we? > > We have a FAQ - sort of - at http://www.mandrakeuser.org > What we need is someone that can set up a Cron job to send an > email on a daily basis to THIS (and the Newbie) list advertising > the FAQ. > > This same suggestion was made a year and a half ago on the RedHat > list, and there was a tremendous outcry against it. The reasoning > went that there was too much email messages as it was without > cluttering it more with a daily "here is the FAQ" message. Some > of us thought that one daily message or maybe three times a week, > would reduce the overall number of messages posted asking > questions. > > At any rate, over at RedHat, DJB and the powers that be nixed > the idea. Perhaps it would be better received at Mandrake. The > cron generated email message is trivial to implement. Whatever > is done is going to require the approval of Mandrake as this is > THEIR list. > > > Ramon, I understand what you're saying. However, my idea is not for a weekly or daily posting of the FAQ. A new user subscribes to the list. The welcome message includes the guidelines for posting and a pointer to the FAQ. If they're not able to parse the info in the welcome message and find the FAQ for answers to their modem problem or their pppd problem or whatever else has been hashed and rehashed over and over again here, we can then say, "FAQ's here, http://FAQ.yadda-yadda.com, go read it." I tend to agree, the daily FAQ posting would be a bit much. Go with weekly or semi-weekly and it may be easier to deal with. -- Rich Clark Sign the petition at http://www.libranet.com/petition.html Help bring us more Linux Drivers
Re: [expert] List Bitching
Well put Ramon. You should keep that to post again , it will become a regular! - Original Message - From: "Ramon Gandia" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Thursday, March 09, 2000 3:20 AM Subject: Re: [expert] List Bitching > Ivan Trail wrote: > > > > On Wed, 08 Mar 2000, you wrote: > > > > > > > > > And what is this long-running modem brand talk? May we please discuss Linux-related issues? > > > Maybe people are uncomfortable to speak of what they really need for fear of being flamed as > > > newbies, a practice of =assholes= who stink pretty bad after a while. (yeah, I said that) > > > > I agree. I was on the newbie list for about a month and got tired of having > > 80-100 emails to sort through on the subject "installing linux". The list has > > it's place, and was a great source of help but after I got it installed I > > couldn't get a decent response on a tougher question. Here I have answered > > most of my problems by reading what other people have asked. > > > > I am not trying to start another flame, but here is my suggestion to remedy > > this problem: > > > > Impliment several, more specific, mailing lists. ie. one for installation > > help, one for driver development, one for people who actually like too much > > caffiene ;^) You get the point. I used to ber on atleast four different > > mailing lists from Red Hat at any one time. the redhat place has probably > > fifteen to twenty different lists to choose from. So maybe some of you experts > > in a specific area of linux could volunteer to host a mailing list. I would do > > so but I can't even find actors to help with the scripting language thing, thus > > I am far from an expert. > > > > just my two cents worth, with NO REFUNDS! > > And my 3 cents will make it a Nickel: > > These mailing lists have two sorts of people on it. Group 1 > are the newcomers that have legitimate questions to ask. Not > exacty Newbies, but 'newcomer.' Group 2 are the rest of the > grouchos that answer them or seek the Truth. > > You, sir, probably belong to neither group. You are looking at > a social place, and want to see ever expanding level of expertise > on this list. This is not the intent. The mailing lists have > a place, and it is to help the Mandrake user. By their very > nature, the people asking are those that do not know the > answers. > > There is an influx of new people all the time. It is wrong to > get angry or be dissapointed just because a Newcomer is having > problem with Modems, his WinModem don't work, or his PPP link > won't come up. We see these questions asked ALL THE TIME, and > they are going to be asked all the time each and every week > from now until Hell Freezes Over. That is the way it is. > Once the newcomer gets his questions answered, he will move > on or become one of the grouchos answering questions. > > To make it plain, I have received VERY LITTLE help from this > list, although I do get a surprise once in a while. I am > here to answer some questions. I am an ISP, and what I know > is often of help to some newcomers. Others on this list > know Perl, or PHP, or Sendmail, oretc. That is what is > all about. > > If you get tired of the Questions and their answers; if the > list is repetitive to you, or sounds trivial, then I would > say that you have outgrown it. Nothing to get angry about. > Hang around if you want, or move on. Maybe to return later. > > Linux is a long, tall ladder. We all climb this ladder of > learning. As we slowly climb, we see those above and ask for > help, and at the same time we reach down and help pull up > those below us. While we move up this ladder, we have to > recognize that new people are getting on the lower rungs all > the time. > > I, and a few others that pitched in, answered and discussed > some questions regarding Modemsand Supermount. Frankly, > I had posted about this four or five times already. And > it will happen again because next week, sure as all get out, > some newcomer will want to know how come his "SupraExpress > 56i PCI Modem will not be recognized or work with Linux". > So, it starts over. Thats the way it was, is, and will be. > > > -- > Ramon Gandia = Sysadmin == Nook Net > http://www.nook.net[EMAIL PROTECTED] > 285 West First Avenue tel. 907-443-7575 > P.O. Box 970 fax. 907-443-2487 > Nome, Alaska 99762-0970 Alaska Toll Free. 888-443-7525
Re: [expert] List Bitching
> You, sir, probably belong to neither group. You are looking at > a social place, and want to see ever expanding level of expertise > on this list. No shit. But me? Social? Sorry. > This is not the intent. The mailing lists have > a place, and it is to help the Mandrake user. By their very > nature, the people asking are those that do not know the > answers. Of course. And in order to make the list useful we need to =retain= as much expertise here as possible. In order for the 'experts' to stay around, it has to be worth their while; that's when MandrakeSoft should step in. > There is an influx of new people all the time. It is wrong to > get angry or be dissapointed just because a Newcomer is having > problem with Modems, his WinModem don't work, or his PPP link > won't come up. Did I sound angry? Notice I said "long-running" and modem BRAND. Of course there should be questions about PPP and use with Linux. And no questions should be off-limits. But why belabor all the various brands there are when there are surely more important issues people would rather ask about but are reluctant to? > To make it plain, I have received VERY LITTLE help from this > list, although I do get a surprise once in a while. I have received a small amount of help as well. Can you understand what I'm trying to do? Make the list so the 'experts' don't abandon a forum that can benefit all, which they had been doing in droves. And encourage openness, which is the opposite of tightassedness and fear. This will float all boats. > If you get tired of the Questions and their answers; if the > list is repetitive to you, or sounds trivial, then I would > say that you have outgrown it. Can't recall ever saying this... 8\ > Linux is a long, tall ladder. We all climb this ladder of > learning. As we slowly climb, we see those above and ask for > help, and at the same time we reach down and help pull up > those below us. While we move up this ladder, we have to > recognize that new people are getting on the lower rungs all > the time. Right.And this is life, as well. -- Carl A. Cook quantumATaugustmailDOTcom Sign the petition at http://www.libranet.com/petition.html Help bring us more Linux Drivers
Re: [expert] List Bitching
Rich Clark wrote: > > Maybe what the list needs is a FAQ page posted somewhere. Someone > subscribes to the list, they get the nice new welcome note from the list > manager that gives them pointers about how to post, what to post and where > to look for answers *before* they post the same question that's been asked > and answered countless times before. Everyone else has a FAQ, why don't > we? We have a FAQ - sort of - at http://www.mandrakeuser.org What we need is someone that can set up a Cron job to send an email on a daily basis to THIS (and the Newbie) list advertising the FAQ. This same suggestion was made a year and a half ago on the RedHat list, and there was a tremendous outcry against it. The reasoning went that there was too much email messages as it was without cluttering it more with a daily "here is the FAQ" message. Some of us thought that one daily message or maybe three times a week, would reduce the overall number of messages posted asking questions. At any rate, over at RedHat, DJB and the powers that be nixed the idea. Perhaps it would be better received at Mandrake. The cron generated email message is trivial to implement. Whatever is done is going to require the approval of Mandrake as this is THEIR list. -- Ramon Gandia = Sysadmin == Nook Net http://www.nook.net[EMAIL PROTECTED] 285 West First Avenue tel. 907-443-7575 P.O. Box 970 fax. 907-443-2487 Nome, Alaska 99762-0970 Alaska Toll Free. 888-443-7525
Re: [expert] List Bitching
Ivan Trail wrote: > Impliment several, more specific, mailing lists. ie. one for installation > help, one for driver development, one for people who actually like too much > caffiene ;^) You get the point. I used to ber on atleast four different > mailing lists from Red Hat at any one time. the redhat place has probably > fifteen to twenty different lists to choose from. So maybe some of you experts > in a specific area of linux could volunteer to host a mailing list. I would do > so but I can't even find actors to help with the scripting language thing, thus > I am far from an expert. > > just my two cents worth, with NO REFUNDS! As an Experienced Unix Admin, I would Gladly commit to sponsoring a Mailing or even Two, but in return I would like to see the Update facility become more 'bullet-proof'. This is no need for me to have to re-install a system instead of having to upgrade it. How About MandrakeSoft. Are you interested? -- Albert E. Whale [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.hky.com/aewhale.html -- Sr. Database, Internet and Unix Systems Consultant Pennsylvania Parenthood Initiative - PAPI http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/4688/papi.htm The Father's Rights Network - http://www.hky.com/frn/frnhome.html Parents without Partners - Past President Co-Founder of The Purple Heart Foundation
Re: [expert] List Bitching
On Wed, 8 Mar 2000, Ramon Gandia wrote: > Ivan Trail wrote: > > > > just my two cents worth, with NO REFUNDS! > > And my 3 cents will make it a Nickel: > > These mailing lists have two sorts of people on it. Group 1 > are the newcomers that have legitimate questions to ask. Not > exacty Newbies, but 'newcomer.' Group 2 are the rest of the > grouchos that answer them or seek the Truth. > > You, sir, probably belong to neither group. You are looking at > a social place, and want to see ever expanding level of expertise > on this list. This is not the intent. The mailing lists have > a place, and it is to help the Mandrake user. By their very > nature, the people asking are those that do not know the > answers. > > There is an influx of new people all the time. It is wrong to > get angry or be dissapointed just because a Newcomer is having > problem with Modems, his WinModem don't work, or his PPP link > won't come up. We see these questions asked ALL THE TIME, and > they are going to be asked all the time each and every week > from now until Hell Freezes Over. That is the way it is. > Once the newcomer gets his questions answered, he will move > on or become one of the grouchos answering questions. > > To make it plain, I have received VERY LITTLE help from this > list, although I do get a surprise once in a while. I am > here to answer some questions. I am an ISP, and what I know > is often of help to some newcomers. Others on this list > know Perl, or PHP, or Sendmail, oretc. That is what is > all about. > > If you get tired of the Questions and their answers; if the > list is repetitive to you, or sounds trivial, then I would > say that you have outgrown it. Nothing to get angry about. > Hang around if you want, or move on. Maybe to return later. > > Linux is a long, tall ladder. We all climb this ladder of > learning. As we slowly climb, we see those above and ask for > help, and at the same time we reach down and help pull up > those below us. While we move up this ladder, we have to > recognize that new people are getting on the lower rungs all > the time. > > I, and a few others that pitched in, answered and discussed > some questions regarding Modemsand Supermount. Frankly, > I had posted about this four or five times already. And > it will happen again because next week, sure as all get out, > some newcomer will want to know how come his "SupraExpress > 56i PCI Modem will not be recognized or work with Linux". > So, it starts over. Thats the way it was, is, and will be. > > > I agree with what has been said in this thread, that we're all here to learn and help others learn what we already know. Unfortunately, sometimes someone lets a bit of frustration surface in their writings, that sets off other people's triggers and a mini-flame war erupts. No big deal, I've seen it happen on lists and on USENET and on IRC and... *8P Maybe what the list needs is a FAQ page posted somewhere. Someone subscribes to the list, they get the nice new welcome note from the list manager that gives them pointers about how to post, what to post and where to look for answers *before* they post the same question that's been asked and answered countless times before. Everyone else has a FAQ, why don't we? -- Rich Clark Sign the petition at http://www.libranet.com/petition.html Help bring us more Linux Drivers
Re: [expert] List Bitching
Ivan Trail wrote: > > On Wed, 08 Mar 2000, you wrote: > > > > > > And what is this long-running modem brand talk? May we please discuss >Linux-related issues? > > Maybe people are uncomfortable to speak of what they really need for fear of being >flamed as > > newbies, a practice of =assholes= who stink pretty bad after a while.(yeah, I >said that) > > I agree. I was on the newbie list for about a month and got tired of having > 80-100 emails to sort through on the subject "installing linux". The list has > it's place, and was a great source of help but after I got it installed I > couldn't get a decent response on a tougher question. Here I have answered > most of my problems by reading what other people have asked. > > I am not trying to start another flame, but here is my suggestion to remedy > this problem: > > Impliment several, more specific, mailing lists. ie. one for installation > help, one for driver development, one for people who actually like too much > caffiene ;^) You get the point. I used to ber on atleast four different > mailing lists from Red Hat at any one time. the redhat place has probably > fifteen to twenty different lists to choose from. So maybe some of you experts > in a specific area of linux could volunteer to host a mailing list. I would do > so but I can't even find actors to help with the scripting language thing, thus > I am far from an expert. > > just my two cents worth, with NO REFUNDS! And my 3 cents will make it a Nickel: These mailing lists have two sorts of people on it. Group 1 are the newcomers that have legitimate questions to ask. Not exacty Newbies, but 'newcomer.' Group 2 are the rest of the grouchos that answer them or seek the Truth. You, sir, probably belong to neither group. You are looking at a social place, and want to see ever expanding level of expertise on this list. This is not the intent. The mailing lists have a place, and it is to help the Mandrake user. By their very nature, the people asking are those that do not know the answers. There is an influx of new people all the time. It is wrong to get angry or be dissapointed just because a Newcomer is having problem with Modems, his WinModem don't work, or his PPP link won't come up. We see these questions asked ALL THE TIME, and they are going to be asked all the time each and every week from now until Hell Freezes Over. That is the way it is. Once the newcomer gets his questions answered, he will move on or become one of the grouchos answering questions. To make it plain, I have received VERY LITTLE help from this list, although I do get a surprise once in a while. I am here to answer some questions. I am an ISP, and what I know is often of help to some newcomers. Others on this list know Perl, or PHP, or Sendmail, oretc. That is what is all about. If you get tired of the Questions and their answers; if the list is repetitive to you, or sounds trivial, then I would say that you have outgrown it. Nothing to get angry about. Hang around if you want, or move on. Maybe to return later. Linux is a long, tall ladder. We all climb this ladder of learning. As we slowly climb, we see those above and ask for help, and at the same time we reach down and help pull up those below us. While we move up this ladder, we have to recognize that new people are getting on the lower rungs all the time. I, and a few others that pitched in, answered and discussed some questions regarding Modemsand Supermount. Frankly, I had posted about this four or five times already. And it will happen again because next week, sure as all get out, some newcomer will want to know how come his "SupraExpress 56i PCI Modem will not be recognized or work with Linux". So, it starts over. Thats the way it was, is, and will be. -- Ramon Gandia = Sysadmin == Nook Net http://www.nook.net[EMAIL PROTECTED] 285 West First Avenue tel. 907-443-7575 P.O. Box 970 fax. 907-443-2487 Nome, Alaska 99762-0970 Alaska Toll Free. 888-443-7525
Re: [expert] List Bitching
As a newbie I'd like to respond to this subject. This group of dedicated professionals have taken the time to answer many newbie questions for me for which I will be forever grateful. They are civilized; educated; knowledgable and genuinely nice people who do not deserve to be maligned for repetitive threads or long replies. I can learn something new from every message if I chose to read it. I do not need programing tools or server scripts, I need the basics! Yet programmers, IP's and sys admins take the time to help me navigate this strange new minefield called Linux. These folks earned the respect of their peers and should be given the same respect here. I hope some day to be able to respond in kind and I genuinely hope to be able to return to the community what was given so freely to me today. In the meantime I'm going to shut up and learn. Who knows, if I live long enough I may need Apache in my teepee or a quick script too. This group does it better (than the others I've been associated with) in the least amount of time with the least amount of fuss. I'm grateful this list is here and I'm proud to be associated with them. Everyone has an opinion and this is mine. If you want to flame me, please do, but leave it off the list. Pj Ivan Trail wrote: > > On Wed, 08 Mar 2000, you wrote: > > > > > > And what is this long-running modem brand talk? May we please discuss >Linux-related issues? > > Maybe people are uncomfortable to speak of what they really need for fear of being >flamed as > > newbies, a practice of =assholes= who stink pretty bad after a while.(yeah, I >said that) > > I agree. I was on the newbie list for about a month and got tired of having > 80-100 emails to sort through on the subject "installing linux". The list has > it's place, and was a great source of help but after I got it installed I > couldn't get a decent response on a tougher question. Here I have answered > most of my problems by reading what other people have asked. > > I am not trying to start another flame, but here is my suggestion to remedy > this problem: > > Impliment several, more specific, mailing lists. ie. one for installation > help, one for driver development, one for people who actually like too much > caffiene ;^) You get the point. I used to ber on atleast four different > mailing lists from Red Hat at any one time. the redhat place has probably > fifteen to twenty different lists to choose from. So maybe some of you experts > in a specific area of linux could volunteer to host a mailing list. I would do > so but I can't even find actors to help with the scripting language thing, thus I am >far from an expert. > > just my two cents worth, with NO REFUNDS!
Re: [expert] List Bitching
On Wed, 08 Mar 2000, you wrote: > > > And what is this long-running modem brand talk? May we please discuss Linux-related >issues? > Maybe people are uncomfortable to speak of what they really need for fear of being >flamed as > newbies, a practice of =assholes= who stink pretty bad after a while.(yeah, I >said that) I agree. I was on the newbie list for about a month and got tired of having 80-100 emails to sort through on the subject "installing linux". The list has it's place, and was a great source of help but after I got it installed I couldn't get a decent response on a tougher question. Here I have answered most of my problems by reading what other people have asked. I am not trying to start another flame, but here is my suggestion to remedy this problem: Impliment several, more specific, mailing lists. ie. one for installation help, one for driver development, one for people who actually like too much caffiene ;^) You get the point. I used to ber on atleast four different mailing lists from Red Hat at any one time. the redhat place has probably fifteen to twenty different lists to choose from. So maybe some of you experts in a specific area of linux could volunteer to host a mailing list. I would do so but I can't even find actors to help with the scripting language thing, thus I am far from an expert. just my two cents worth, with NO REFUNDS!
