Re: [expert] Mandrake's Arrogance
On Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 12:21 -0400, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hoyt wrote: - Original Message - From: "Civileme" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, July 21, 2000 1:34 AM Subject: [expert] RIGHT CLICK--NEW - Folder Are you folks who are complaining running as _root_? This is something not to be done, for many reasons, including the fact that you get kicked from most IRC servers. I find it arrogant that Mandrake would deliberatly cripple the functionality of programs in order to prohibit certain behavior that they have decided is inappropriate. This kind of "I know better than you" unwelcomed paternalistic coercion is awfully Microsoft-ish. Is this the direction Mandrake is heading? Yuck! Hoyt Hear! Hear!! ... One of the several reasons I switched from Mandrake to SuSE!!!. Did you leave out the ";-)" intentionally? In case you meant this as a joke: it's a good one. wobo (switched from SuSE to Mandrake some time ago out of similar reasons!) -- GPG-Fingerprint: FE5A 0891 7027 8D1B 4E3F 73C1 AD9B D732 A698 82EE For Public Key mailto [EMAIL PROTECTED] with Subject: GPG-Request --- ISDN4LINUX-FAQ -- Deutsch: http://www.wolf-b.de/i4l/i4lfaq-de.html
Re: [expert] Mandrake's Arrogance
On Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 21:36 -0400, philomena wrote: If you're a SuSE fan then seems you're hanging around the wrong list, wouldn't you say ? :-) No. The opportunity to read other lists and/or newsgroups helped me get away from SuSE some time ago. It's always the knowledge about an existing alernative which makes changes possible. wobo -- GPG-Fingerprint: FE5A 0891 7027 8D1B 4E3F 73C1 AD9B D732 A698 82EE For Public Key mailto [EMAIL PROTECTED] with Subject: GPG-Request --- ISDN4LINUX-FAQ -- Deutsch: http://www.wolf-b.de/i4l/i4lfaq-de.html
Re: [expert] Mandrake's Arrogance
Sean, When configuring and doing things where root IS NEEDED is the exception obviously! I am talking about as a normal user. Of course you have to configure, tweak, install, etc. in root...THAT'S ITS JOB to administer the system. But when you are doing user stuff, like going online to get email, run browser/email programs, listen to online streams, IRC, ICQ, GAIM, whatever you are a user and being the root administrator is foolish. If you need administrator/root privileges...while you are user...it is right there...su in...do what you need and exit. What's the problem? Bambi Sean Middleditch wrote: Fran Parker wrote: Not everyone wants or needs to take the kind of chances you do. Not everyone wants or needs to, as you suggest, reinstall due to running as root and opening yourself up to invasion and loss. Not everyone wants or needs to take the unnecessary time to do that...su is not hard! I think you're being just a tad over-dramatic there... I have to run as root for very long periods of time (setting a server for DNS+HTTPD+dial in, and copying a Support Web system I made over, and setting up MySQL... about 4 hours logged in only as root getting this all set up) and never have any problems. The only serious issue I've had so far is when I installed my new motherboard, and that's because I deleted the parition /boot was mounted to (it needed to be redone to install lilo, since I wasn't using another hard-drive as primary any more). Other than that, I've never screwed up a system as root. If everyone wanted this kind of abuse ... they could have stayed with Windows and gotten all they wanted!
Re: [expert] Mandrake's Arrogance
The first thing a hacker wants to do when attacking your system is to gain root access so he can exploit you system completely. If you are running your system at root already you have saved him a lot of time and trouble. Also, to be effective a virus needs root access. When viruses start showing up against Linux, and they will as Linux gains more popularity, look out. By not using root all the time you can contain the virus to the user space is was collected in and the majority of the system will be unaffected. Root is very dangerous and I usually take my system off-line when using it. Best Regards, Bruce
Re: [expert] Mandrake's Arrogance
On Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 06:16:53PM -0400, Fireman71 wrote: Hmmm, i run root all the time and will continue to do so. couple of reasons. I got tired of typing su and sudo about every 3rd command. I got tired of not being able to cd into some of my directories. A reasonable complaint. May I suggest a more secure way to handle it? If you run X, run multiple desktops. I run eight, and often use them all. From the desktop, lauch a shell, then su - to each user you need open (except for the user under which you launched X). I have a desktop for root which usually has a couple of xterms and a copy of emacs running. I have several desktops for my personal login, ccurley, and two for ssh logins to other systems on my network, as needed. This way, root is a rodent click away. This is less secure than insisting on using su - or sudo all the time, but much easier. To secure the root window when I am not around, I have secured my desktop with a password enforced screen saver. This, even though I work in my home office and have excellent physical security for my facility. If you work without X, you can get the same effect with multiple open consoles. When i make a mistake as root and wipe out half my file system, so what, its no big deal to me. I am not NASA or the pentagon. I am a, in my opinion, typical homeuser. There is nothing installed on my system that would cause the world to end if it gets erased or deleted. It would only be me spending my time reinstalling everything. Big deal. Now yes i can see this when you get into systems that have several users, or at places such as banks, universities, governments, etc. But for the typical home user i dont see that it is that big a deal to run root so long as they arent going to go crying and whining that they erased half their files. If they are willing to accept that chance on their own machines i say get off their back and let them. On the face of it, this appears to be a reasonable argument, except: I guarantee that you will acquire bad habits. Let me give you an analogy: the first rule of firearm safety is that all guns are assumed to be loaded at all times, unless you know for a fact from your own inspection that 1) a gun is unloaded, and 2) it has not left your sight. Get in the habit of acting on that assumption, and you will be much safer around firearms. Some folks tell me they think that is overly paranoid. Fine. I'd rather clear a gun unnecessarily than have an accidental discharge (AD). OK, an AD can do far more damage than you wiping out your hard drive. Still, restoring your system, even assuming you have backups (you do have backups, don't you?), is a bloody nuisance. I'd rather switch to root from time to time than do a restore. It comes down to your habits. I'd rather have safe habits and running as root is an unsafe habit. If you have unsafe habits like that, remind me not to hire you for anything at all. I'd have to wonder what other unsafe habits you have. -- -- C^2 No windows were crashed in the making of this email. Looking for fine software and/or web pages? http://w3.trib.com/~ccurley PGP signature
Re: [expert] Mandrake's Arrogance
That is what I have been trying to say, obviously unsuccessfully. Thanks! Bambi Charles Curley wrote: On Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 06:16:53PM -0400, Fireman71 wrote: Hmmm, i run root all the time and will continue to do so. couple of reasons. I got tired of typing su and sudo about every 3rd command. I got tired of not being able to cd into some of my directories. A reasonable complaint. May I suggest a more secure way to handle it? If you run X, run multiple desktops. I run eight, and often use them all. From the desktop, lauch a shell, then su - to each user you need open (except for the user under which you launched X). I have a desktop for root which usually has a couple of xterms and a copy of emacs running. I have several desktops for my personal login, ccurley, and two for ssh logins to other systems on my network, as needed. This way, root is a rodent click away. This is less secure than insisting on using su - or sudo all the time, but much easier. To secure the root window when I am not around, I have secured my desktop with a password enforced screen saver. This, even though I work in my home office and have excellent physical security for my facility. If you work without X, you can get the same effect with multiple open consoles. When i make a mistake as root and wipe out half my file system, so what, its no big deal to me. I am not NASA or the pentagon. I am a, in my opinion, typical homeuser. There is nothing installed on my system that would cause the world to end if it gets erased or deleted. It would only be me spending my time reinstalling everything. Big deal. Now yes i can see this when you get into systems that have several users, or at places such as banks, universities, governments, etc. But for the typical home user i dont see that it is that big a deal to run root so long as they arent going to go crying and whining that they erased half their files. If they are willing to accept that chance on their own machines i say get off their back and let them. On the face of it, this appears to be a reasonable argument, except: I guarantee that you will acquire bad habits. Let me give you an analogy: the first rule of firearm safety is that all guns are assumed to be loaded at all times, unless you know for a fact from your own inspection that 1) a gun is unloaded, and 2) it has not left your sight. Get in the habit of acting on that assumption, and you will be much safer around firearms. Some folks tell me they think that is overly paranoid. Fine. I'd rather clear a gun unnecessarily than have an accidental discharge (AD). OK, an AD can do far more damage than you wiping out your hard drive. Still, restoring your system, even assuming you have backups (you do have backups, don't you?), is a bloody nuisance. I'd rather switch to root from time to time than do a restore. It comes down to your habits. I'd rather have safe habits and running as root is an unsafe habit. If you have unsafe habits like that, remind me not to hire you for anything at all. I'd have to wonder what other unsafe habits you have. -- -- C^2 No windows were crashed in the making of this email. Looking for fine software and/or web pages? http://w3.trib.com/~ccurley Part 1.2Type: application/pgp-signature
Re: [expert] Mandrake's Arrogance
Funny how you remember things your father used to say. Mine used to look at me and say, "Experience is a cruel teacher, but a fool can learn from no other." On Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 06:16:53PM -0400, Fireman71 wrote: Hmmm, i run root all the time and will continue to do so. couple of reasons. I got tired of typing su and sudo about every 3rd command. I got tired of not being able to cd into some of my directories. -- Kenneth Archer + San Antonio, Texas [EMAIL PROTECTED] ICQ #24980801 Powered by Linux ++ Mailed by Kmail
Re: [expert] Mandrake's Arrogance
On Sat, 22 Jul 2000, Ken Archer wrote: Funny how you remember things your father used to say. Mine used to look at me and say, "Experience is a cruel teacher, but a fool can learn from no other." Good one. While certain (safe) commands have had permissions modified to allow me to run them as a normal user (of a particular group). Having to type su or sudo (or whatever other program you use for the purpose) is a reminder that what you are about to do may have repercussions. For our flippant friend who thinks that he loses nothing if he trashes his install by running as root constantly, remember that may be true if you have nothing but the stock distribution on your drive(s). But if, like most people you have custom configurations and packages compiled specifically for your system, you could spend a week recovering from it. And if you don't back up (and we all know most people don't) it can take much longer. -- _ _|_|_ ( ) *Anton Graham /v\ / [EMAIL PROTECTED] /( )X (m_m) GPG ID: 18F78541 Penguin Powered!
Re: [expert] Mandrake's Arrogance
On Sat, 22 Jul 2000, you wrote: On Sat, 22 Jul 2000, Ken Archer wrote: Funny how you remember things your father used to say. Mine used to look at me and say, "Experience is a cruel teacher, but a fool can learn from no other." Good one. While certain (safe) commands have had permissions modified to allow me to run them as a normal user (of a particular group). Having to type su or sudo (or whatever other program you use for the purpose) is a reminder that what you are about to do may have repercussions. Yeah. I've changed the permissions on my XCDRoast such that I can now burn CDs as a non-root user. I really HATED having to open a console, type "xhost +localhost" and then su to root and run xcdroast. :-) THAT was a lot of pain. Then I got smart and made XCDRoast run SUID. :-) I did the same thing with RDATE. I *still* can't run HWCLOCK as a non-root user, but it's no big deal to su to root for that. Now, installing RPMs requires me to SU, but just running RPM queries does not. I'm glad RH fixed that in 6.2 In RH 6.0, I was not able to run RPM queries as a non-root user. John
Re: [expert] Mandrake's Arrogance
John Aldrich wrote: On Sat, 22 Jul 2000, you wrote: On Sat, 22 Jul 2000, Ken Archer wrote: Funny how you remember things your father used to say. Mine used to look at me and say, "Experience is a cruel teacher, but a fool can learn from no other." Good one. While certain (safe) commands have had permissions modified to allow me to run them as a normal user (of a particular group). Having to type su or sudo (or whatever other program you use for the purpose) is a reminder that what you are about to do may have repercussions. Yeah. I've changed the permissions on my XCDRoast such that I can now burn CDs as a non-root user. I really HATED having to open a console, type "xhost +localhost" and then su to root and run xcdroast. :-) THAT was a lot of pain. This seems to be a mandrake thing. Why, I dunno, cannot answer it.. But when I was running mdk 6.1, I used to have to do the xhost +localhost all the time! I don't know enough about Linux (yet) to know why, but I did. One of my local linux guru's helped me with that. With RH 6.2, I've NEVER had to do xhost +localhost.. I asked in the past and never got an answer.. WHAT it THIS, and WHY is this? I would *really* like to know.. Alan --
Re: [expert] Mandrake's Arrogance
I don't fully understand it, but in my 7.1 home directory, xhost+localhost is the first line in my .xinitrc file. I really don't remember when I put it there, but as the upgrades have come and gone, .xinitrc has remained the same in my home directory which stays the same from one version to the next. On Sat, 22 Jul 2000, you wrote: John Aldrich wrote: This seems to be a mandrake thing. Why, I dunno, cannot answer it.. But when I was running mdk 6.1, I used to have to do the xhost +localhost all the time! I don't know enough about Linux (yet) to know why, but I did. One of my local linux guru's helped me with that. With RH 6.2, I've NEVER had to do xhost +localhost.. I asked in the past and never got an answer.. WHAT it THIS, and WHY is this? I would *really* like to know.. Alan -- -- Kenneth Archer + San Antonio, Texas [EMAIL PROTECTED] ICQ #24980801 Powered by Linux ++ Mailed by Kmail
Re: [expert] Mandrake's Arrogance
Hoyt wrote: I find it arrogant that Mandrake would deliberatly cripple the functionality of programs in order to prohibit certain behavior that they have decided is inappropriate. This kind of "I know better than you" unwelcomed paternalistic coercion is awfully Microsoft-ish. Is this the direction Mandrake is heading? Yuck! Hi! I must agree with people who are saying "Running irc as root is DANGEROUS"! It really is! And if you select any kind of scurity level this should be disabled! bye, Alen
Re: [expert] Mandrake's Arrogance
From: "Civileme" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Are you folks who are complaining running as _root_? This is something not to be done, for many reasons, including the fact that you get kicked from most IRC servers. I find it arrogant that Mandrake would deliberatly cripple the functionality of programs in order to prohibit certain behavior that they have decided is inappropriate. This kind of "I know better than you" unwelcomed paternalistic coercion is awfully Microsoft-ish. Is this the direction Mandrake is heading? Yuck! Hoyt The problem arises from the fact that Mandrake is trying to serve two markets: servers and desktops. On servers, full multi-user mode is needed, to protect the computer from itself, and from users who do not know what they are doing. Server administrtors know to do admin activities as root, and normal user activities as a normal user. MS Windows, BeOS, MacOS... probably others, too, have no such distinction between "admins" and "users" (Windows NT being the sole exception, but even there, support in programs for multiple user accounts is sorely lacking). All these operating systems are designed to be run where the user has, at all times, full access to admin activities. People are used to doing these, without having to deal with the concept of their current "user id" (UID). Mandrake is not being arrogant here. This has nothing to do with crippling functionality, but rather with turning a multi-user operating system into something resembling a "desktop OS." I think it's ineveitable that these problems will arise. I don't know of a good way to solve it; do you? -Matt Stegman [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [expert] Mandrake's Arrogance
It's my guess that Mandrake is thinking...that A: by doing this, we aren't limiting any functionality, and B: it will prevent those who don't know from doing things they shouldn't just my opinion. --T. - Original Message - From: "Civileme" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, July 21, 2000 1:34 AM Subject: [expert] RIGHT CLICK--NEW - Folder Are you folks who are complaining running as _root_? This is something not to be done, for many reasons, including the fact that you get kicked from most IRC servers. I find it arrogant that Mandrake would deliberatly cripple the functionality of programs in order to prohibit certain behavior that they have decided is inappropriate. This kind of "I know better than you" unwelcomed paternalistic coercion is awfully Microsoft-ish. Is this the direction Mandrake is heading? Yuck! Hoyt
Re: [expert] Mandrake's Arrogance
On Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 10:51:18AM -0400, Hoyt wrote: - Original Message - From: "Civileme" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, July 21, 2000 1:34 AM Subject: [expert] RIGHT CLICK--NEW - Folder Are you folks who are complaining running as _root_? This is something not to be done, for many reasons, including the fact that you get kicked from most IRC servers. I find it arrogant that Mandrake would deliberatly cripple the functionality of programs in order to prohibit certain behavior that they have decided is inappropriate. This kind of "I know better than you" unwelcomed paternalistic coercion is awfully Microsoft-ish. Is this the direction Mandrake is heading? Yuck! Horsepucky. Root has all sorts of powers, and can easily shot himself in the foot. Unix by custom and by coding has for years enforced the notion that you do as little as possible as root -- only the necessary system administration functions. This is why, for example, root and other users have different paths. This isn't arrogance, it is humility. It is simply a sensible realization that some of us make mistakes (you may not, but I know I do) and so prefer to use Unix' built in security to limit those mistakes. This, btw, pre-dates the founding of Mandrake. While we're at it, Red Hat's mailing lists won't accept mail sent by root. Are you going to accuse them of being arrogant? Why don't you go back to NT or Windows -- you can do anything as administrator on NT, and no-one will be surprised when you delete the registry. -- -- C^2 No windows were crashed in the making of this email. Looking for fine software and/or web pages? http://w3.trib.com/~ccurley PGP signature
Re: [expert] Mandrake's Arrogance
Hoyt wrote: - Original Message - From: "Civileme" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, July 21, 2000 1:34 AM Subject: [expert] RIGHT CLICK--NEW - Folder Are you folks who are complaining running as _root_? This is something not to be done, for many reasons, including the fact that you get kicked from most IRC servers. I find it arrogant that Mandrake would deliberatly cripple the functionality of programs in order to prohibit certain behavior that they have decided is inappropriate. This kind of "I know better than you" unwelcomed paternalistic coercion is awfully Microsoft-ish. Is this the direction Mandrake is heading? Yuck! Hoyt Well, talk to the folks out on irc or try to run irc as root and see what happens. Most servers out there will log you off with a message, and not always a nice one. "Don't irc as root" was about the most polite I got. Anyway, nothing is prevented, just made a little harder to do, so that you remember you are in root. How do you think I stumbled across the server behavior? I appreciate the reminder so I don't endanger myself quite so much. Civileme
Re: [expert] Mandrake's Arrogance
[...] On Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 10:51:18AM -0400, Hoyt wrote: I find it arrogant that Mandrake would deliberatly cripple the functionality of programs in order to prohibit certain behavior that they have decided is inappropriate. This kind of "I know better than you" unwelcomed paternalistic coercion is awfully Microsoft-ish. Is this the direction Mandrake is heading? Yuck! You didn't get it. It is to Protect you and your Data that they are doing it. If you want to commit suicide, do it, but don't blame the others. -- A friend in need is a pest indeed. | Joerg Mertin : [EMAIL PROTECTED](Home)| | in Neuchâtel/Schweiz : [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Work)| | Stardust's LiNUX System : http://www.solsys.org | | PGP 2.6.3in Key on Demand : Data, Voice Fax: +41(0)32 / 725 52 54 | PGP fingerprint: 6D E9 7B 04 57 7B 65 42 B7 7A D0 AA 69 95 7C E1
Re: [expert] Mandrake's Arrogance
It's on http://www.forum.mandrakesoft.com/ Civileme Hoyt wrote: - Original Message - From: "Civileme" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, July 21, 2000 1:34 AM Subject: [expert] RIGHT CLICK--NEW - Folder Are you folks who are complaining running as _root_? This is something not to be done, for many reasons, including the fact that you get kicked from most IRC servers. I find it arrogant that Mandrake would deliberatly cripple the functionality of programs in order to prohibit certain behavior that they have decided is inappropriate. This kind of "I know better than you" unwelcomed paternalistic coercion is awfully Microsoft-ish. Is this the direction Mandrake is heading? Yuck! Hoyt
Re: [expert] Mandrake's Arrogance
On Fri, 21 Jul 2000, you wrote: - Original Message - From: "Civileme" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, July 21, 2000 1:34 AM Subject: [expert] RIGHT CLICK--NEW - Folder Are you folks who are complaining running as _root_? This is something not to be done, for many reasons, including the fact that you get kicked from most IRC servers. I find it arrogant that Mandrake would deliberatly cripple the functionality of programs in order to prohibit certain behavior that they have decided is inappropriate. This kind of "I know better than you" unwelcomed paternalistic coercion is awfully Microsoft-ish. Is this the direction Mandrake is heading? Yuck! Ok. So Mandrake "cripples" some stuff as root to discourage you from running as "root." They have also done so in the security levels, and I don' t hear anyone bitching about MS-like behavior with regards to functionality of some programs under the "high" and "paranoid" security levels. As is pointed out, there is good reason NOT to run as "root." Pretty much every distro out there will prevent you from telnetting into the box as "root" for security reasons (at least Mandrake and RedHat will. I *think* most other distros do as well!) I think it's a Bad Idea (tm) to cry "microsoft" anytime a linux distribution "cripples" something for security reasons. I don't hear anyone bitching about not being able to install RPMs as a user, yet that's *definitely* an "I know better than you" situation of a program being crippled. My $0.02: Shut up and stop running as "root" unless you're actively configuring stuff which requires "root" permissions. If you just want to be able to install an RPM or something, open a console window, su to root and run the rpm installer. Stop trying to defeat the security that's inherent in linux and run as a "user!" John
RE: [expert] Mandrake's Arrogance
Go John! I agree 100% with you!! -Original Message- From: John Aldrich [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, July 21, 2000 1:29 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [expert] Mandrake's Arrogance On Fri, 21 Jul 2000, you wrote: - Original Message - From: "Civileme" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, July 21, 2000 1:34 AM Subject: [expert] RIGHT CLICK--NEW - Folder Are you folks who are complaining running as _root_? This is something not to be done, for many reasons, including the fact that you get kicked from most IRC servers. I find it arrogant that Mandrake would deliberatly cripple the functionality of programs in order to prohibit certain behavior that they have decided is inappropriate. This kind of "I know better than you" unwelcomed paternalistic coercion is awfully Microsoft-ish. Is this the direction Mandrake is heading? Yuck! Ok. So Mandrake "cripples" some stuff as root to discourage you from running as "root." They have also done so in the security levels, and I don' t hear anyone bitching about MS-like behavior with regards to functionality of some programs under the "high" and "paranoid" security levels. As is pointed out, there is good reason NOT to run as "root." Pretty much every distro out there will prevent you from telnetting into the box as "root" for security reasons (at least Mandrake and RedHat will. I *think* most other distros do as well!) I think it's a Bad Idea (tm) to cry "microsoft" anytime a linux distribution "cripples" something for security reasons. I don't hear anyone bitching about not being able to install RPMs as a user, yet that's *definitely* an "I know better than you" situation of a program being crippled. My $0.02: Shut up and stop running as "root" unless you're actively configuring stuff which requires "root" permissions. If you just want to be able to install an RPM or something, open a console window, su to root and run the rpm installer. Stop trying to defeat the security that's inherent in linux and run as a "user!" John
RE: [expert] Mandrake's Arrogance
Besides these are just presets. You can disable Mandrake Security, install on "Come on in crackers!" and edit /etc/securetty and get in as root. All this is is a preset. By default a system should be configured to be pretty secure. Only an idiot would run thier day to day system usage as root. Yes, I generally have a few consoles opened su'd to root, and yes, I have a kdesu -c gmc Icon on my desktop for my root file mangement needs, but I only execute programs as root when I absolutely must because I know doing otherwise can cause incrediable damage to my system and/or open up serious security risks. You can reverse any default setting for Mandrake, but I think a big part of the reason we all like mandrake is the "slickness" and ease of use of the installation/admin tools. RedHat's nice, but mandrake has that extra polish. Recovering RedHat user, -David Talbot On Fri, 21 Jul 2000, you wrote: Go John! I agree 100% with you!! -Original Message- From: John Aldrich [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, July 21, 2000 1:29 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [expert] Mandrake's Arrogance On Fri, 21 Jul 2000, you wrote: - Original Message - From: "Civileme" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, July 21, 2000 1:34 AM Subject: [expert] RIGHT CLICK--NEW - Folder Are you folks who are complaining running as _root_? This is something not to be done, for many reasons, including the fact that you get kicked from most IRC servers. I find it arrogant that Mandrake would deliberatly cripple the functionality of programs in order to prohibit certain behavior that they have decided is inappropriate. This kind of "I know better than you" unwelcomed paternalistic coercion is awfully Microsoft-ish. Is this the direction Mandrake is heading? Yuck! Ok. So Mandrake "cripples" some stuff as root to discourage you from running as "root." They have also done so in the security levels, and I don' t hear anyone bitching about MS-like behavior with regards to functionality of some programs under the "high" and "paranoid" security levels. As is pointed out, there is good reason NOT to run as "root." Pretty much every distro out there will prevent you from telnetting into the box as "root" for security reasons (at least Mandrake and RedHat will. I *think* most other distros do as well!) I think it's a Bad Idea (tm) to cry "microsoft" anytime a linux distribution "cripples" something for security reasons. I don't hear anyone bitching about not being able to install RPMs as a user, yet that's *definitely* an "I know better than you" situation of a program being crippled. My $0.02: Shut up and stop running as "root" unless you're actively configuring stuff which requires "root" permissions. If you just want to be able to install an RPM or something, open a console window, su to root and run the rpm installer. Stop trying to defeat the security that's inherent in linux and run as a "user!" John -- -David Talbot Those who would trade freedom for security deserve neither. -B. Franklin
Re: [expert] Mandrake's Arrogance
My guru wasn't very polite about /root. He said something to the effect of, "Stay the he** out of root unless you are making a system change." It was good advise then and it is good advice today. Pj
Re: [expert] Mandrake's Arrogance
- Original Message - From: "Civileme" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, July 21, 2000 1:19 PM Subject: Re: [expert] Mandrake's Arrogance It's on http://www.forum.mandrakesoft.com/ Civileme And I posted some excerpts from the comments here in reply. Hoyt
Re: [expert] Mandrake's Arrogance
actually, microsoft took the other approach, the one you're suggesting is preferrable. they delivered a product (outlook) with all safety features off, all doors open. how many windows users knew to switch their scripting host off? that's right, almost nobody - that's why LOVEYOU caught on like a house on fire. i don't understand what your problem is with safety as default? if you want to dismantle your system security, feel free to - mandrake won't come chasing you down. just don't expect to be able to log in to irc servers around the world (as was mentioned), or to have your mail and posts to various lists accepted... other people may feel you're stupid enough not to listen to, or ignorant enough not to know better, hence nudging you in the right direction. it's their right. ...joakim On Fri, 21 Jul 2000, Michael R. Batchelor wrote: I find it arrogant that Mandrake would deliberatly cripple the functionality of programs in order to prohibit certain behavior that they have decided is inappropriate. This kind of "I know better than you" unwelcomed paternalistic coercion is awfully Microsoft-ish. Is this the direction Mandrake is heading? Yuck! I think it more like good solid design. We work machines in my line of work, and without safety limits it's easy to get killed or hurt very badly. So when we design something we put restrictions on what the operator can do. However, it's also necessary for someone to fix it occasionally, so we design a "maintenance mode" to defeat the safeties, but we don't make it easy to do by accident. (That's what root is, the UNIX "maintenance mode" user.) Now, after the machine is in the plant there is absolutely nothing in world to stop the plant personnel from shoving a pencil in the safety switch and running the machine with the doors open. And there is nothing in the world stopping you from reconfiguring anything on your machine to work any way you feel like it should work. But, in the same way it would be irresponsible of us to deliver a machine that's unsafe to operate, it would be irresponsible of Mandrake to deliver a configuration that's unsafe. (And if you really want to see somebody making decisions for you, install an OpenBSD system. It's locked up tight as a drum! And they do it on purpose!) Michael
Re: [expert] Mandrake's Arrogance
Hey Fellows, Please don't think we are arrogant, this seem to indicate we are dumb. Why do you think there is a root? We also do use user for such things as mutt, fetchmail, qmail and procmail at medium level security. The only time root is generally used is for configuration, installation and any other necessities. I must say configuration does not come to often and certainly not for five weeks after installation for 7.0 unlike 7.1. Simon On Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 10:51:18AM -0400, Hoyt wrote: - Original Message - From: "Civileme" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, July 21, 2000 1:34 AM Subject: [expert] RIGHT CLICK--NEW - Folder Are you folks who are complaining running as _root_? This is something not to be done, for many reasons, including the fact that you get kicked from most IRC servers. I find it arrogant that Mandrake would deliberatly cripple the functionality of programs in order to prohibit certain behavior that they have decided is inappropriate. This kind of "I know better than you" unwelcomed paternalistic coercion is awfully Microsoft-ish. Is this the direction Mandrake is heading? Yuck! Hoyt PGP signature
Re: [expert] Mandrake's Arrogance
Hoyt wrote: - Original Message - From: "Civileme" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, July 21, 2000 1:34 AM Subject: [expert] RIGHT CLICK--NEW - Folder Are you folks who are complaining running as _root_? This is something not to be done, for many reasons, including the fact that you get kicked from most IRC servers. I find it arrogant that Mandrake would deliberatly cripple the functionality of programs in order to prohibit certain behavior that they have decided is inappropriate. This kind of "I know better than you" unwelcomed paternalistic coercion is awfully Microsoft-ish. Is this the direction Mandrake is heading? Yuck! Hoyt Hear! Hear!! ... One of the several reasons I switched from Mandrake to SuSE!!!. simon
Re: [expert] Mandrake's Arrogance
Mandrake is not being arrogant here. This has nothing to do with crippling functionality, but rather with turning a multi-user operating system into something resembling a "desktop OS." I think it's ineveitable that these problems will arise. I don't know of a good way to solve it; do you? -Matt Stegman [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yes ... leave the OS be ... if you want to use it, you gotta learn about it!
RE: [expert] Mandrake's Arrogance
And people wonder how and why servers get hacked, and why there is so many open mail relays. Well I can tell ya, 1. Microsoft! (no need to explain this one) 2. Users who do not know what they are doing with the servers they are setting up on their broadband. People no longer take the time to RTFM or read the faq, mans, and howto's. I applaud Mandrake for making a semi secure distro! Hopefully we can stop the su abuse sometime soon. "They meaning of life is 42" Eric Peters Mail:[EMAIL PROTECTED] System Administrator Network Operations Inherent Technologies Inc. office (503)224-6751 ext 224 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, July 21, 2000 9:21 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [expert] Mandrake's Arrogance Hoyt wrote: - Original Message - From: "Civileme" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, July 21, 2000 1:34 AM Subject: [expert] RIGHT CLICK--NEW - Folder Are you folks who are complaining running as _root_? This is something not to be done, for many reasons, including the fact that you get kicked from most IRC servers. I find it arrogant that Mandrake would deliberatly cripple the functionality of programs in order to prohibit certain behavior that they have decided is inappropriate. This kind of "I know better than you" unwelcomed paternalistic coercion is awfully Microsoft-ish. Is this the direction Mandrake is heading? Yuck! Hoyt Hear! Hear!! ... One of the several reasons I switched from Mandrake to SuSE!!!. simon
Re: [expert] Mandrake's Arrogance
Is there sound in suse? On Fri, 21 Jul 2000, you wrote: Hoyt wrote: - Original Message - From: "Civileme" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, July 21, 2000 1:34 AM Subject: [expert] RIGHT CLICK--NEW - Folder Are you folks who are complaining running as _root_? This is something not to be done, for many reasons, including the fact that you get kicked from most IRC servers. I find it arrogant that Mandrake would deliberatly cripple the functionality of programs in order to prohibit certain behavior that they have decided is inappropriate. This kind of "I know better than you" unwelcomed paternalistic coercion is awfully Microsoft-ish. Is this the direction Mandrake is heading? Yuck! Hoyt Hear! Hear!! ... One of the several reasons I switched from Mandrake to SuSE!!!. simon
Re: [expert] Mandrake's Arrogance
Hmmm, i run root all the time and will continue to do so. couple of reasons. I got tired of typing su and sudo about every 3rd command. I got tired of not being able to cd into some of my directories. When i make a mistake as root and wipe out half my file system, so what, its no big deal to me. I am not NASA or the pentagon. I am a, in my opinion, typical homeuser. There is nothing installed on my system that would cause the world to end if it gets erased or deleted. It would only be me spending my time reinstalling everything. Big deal. Now yes i can see this when you get into systems that have several users, or at places such as banks, universities, governments, etc. But for the typical home user i dont see that it is that big a deal to run root so long as they arent going to go crying and whining that they erased half their files. If they are willing to accept that chance on their own machines i say get off their back and let them. As for the IRC stuff, I pulled up xchat in kde and started it up. It gave me two warnings. One when it started saying i shouldnt irc as root and then another when i tried to connect with root as my screen name. I changed my screenname and clicked connect. Logged in just fine. Got the channel list, joined a few rooms, etc. So apparently the only thing is that you cant use root as your screenname. At least that is what happened in my case. and btw, i logged onto Undernet US, irc.dal.net, irc.gimp.net, and irc.foxchat.net. I didnt have any problems what so ever. Just had to change my screenname from root and it looked like the two warnings were originating from the program xchat and not from the servers. Ian K. Harrell [EMAIL PROTECTED] Are you folks who are complaining running as _root_? This is something not to be done, for many reasons, including the fact that you get kicked from most IRC servers. Well, talk to the folks out on irc or try to run irc as root and see what happens. Most servers out there will log you off with a message, and not always a nice one. "Don't irc as root" was about the most polite I got. Anyway, nothing is prevented, just made a little harder to do, so that you remember you are in root. How do you think I stumbled across the server behavior? I appreciate the reminder so I don't endanger myself quite so much.
Re: [expert] Mandrake's Arrogance
My understanding is that this is a UNIX/LINUX thing, not a Mandrake thing. Other distros would have the same functionality (I use this word intentionally!) One needs to understand that Root is not a user! Root is administrator. Get that one and you will keep your system longer than anyone who uses a Windows-based system...including NT/2000 where users are generally only given domain USER rights, but are sometimes given admin capabilities. When they are given these extra privileges, they should be given two separate logins ... one for normal use and one for admin responsibilities to keep the network secure. Most network administrators know this, but some still don't get it. Bambi Hoyt wrote: - Original Message - From: "Civileme" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, July 21, 2000 1:34 AM Subject: [expert] RIGHT CLICK--NEW - Folder Are you folks who are complaining running as _root_? This is something not to be done, for many reasons, including the fact that you get kicked from most IRC servers. I find it arrogant that Mandrake would deliberatly cripple the functionality of programs in order to prohibit certain behavior that they have decided is inappropriate. This kind of "I know better than you" unwelcomed paternalistic coercion is awfully Microsoft-ish. Is this the direction Mandrake is heading? Yuck! Hoyt
Re: [expert] Mandrake's Arrogance
You are absolutely right Civileme! Bambi Civileme wrote: Hoyt wrote: - Original Message - From: "Civileme" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, July 21, 2000 1:34 AM Subject: [expert] RIGHT CLICK--NEW - Folder Are you folks who are complaining running as _root_? This is something not to be done, for many reasons, including the fact that you get kicked from most IRC servers. I find it arrogant that Mandrake would deliberatly cripple the functionality of programs in order to prohibit certain behavior that they have decided is inappropriate. This kind of "I know better than you" unwelcomed paternalistic coercion is awfully Microsoft-ish. Is this the direction Mandrake is heading? Yuck! Hoyt Well, talk to the folks out on irc or try to run irc as root and see what happens. Most servers out there will log you off with a message, and not always a nice one. "Don't irc as root" was about the most polite I got. Anyway, nothing is prevented, just made a little harder to do, so that you remember you are in root. How do you think I stumbled across the server behavior? I appreciate the reminder so I don't endanger myself quite so much. Civileme
Re: [expert] Mandrake's Arrogance
Exactly! Bambi John Aldrich wrote: On Fri, 21 Jul 2000, you wrote: - Original Message - From: "Civileme" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, July 21, 2000 1:34 AM Subject: [expert] RIGHT CLICK--NEW - Folder Are you folks who are complaining running as _root_? This is something not to be done, for many reasons, including the fact that you get kicked from most IRC servers. I find it arrogant that Mandrake would deliberatly cripple the functionality of programs in order to prohibit certain behavior that they have decided is inappropriate. This kind of "I know better than you" unwelcomed paternalistic coercion is awfully Microsoft-ish. Is this the direction Mandrake is heading? Yuck! Ok. So Mandrake "cripples" some stuff as root to discourage you from running as "root." They have also done so in the security levels, and I don' t hear anyone bitching about MS-like behavior with regards to functionality of some programs under the "high" and "paranoid" security levels. As is pointed out, there is good reason NOT to run as "root." Pretty much every distro out there will prevent you from telnetting into the box as "root" for security reasons (at least Mandrake and RedHat will. I *think* most other distros do as well!) I think it's a Bad Idea (tm) to cry "microsoft" anytime a linux distribution "cripples" something for security reasons. I don't hear anyone bitching about not being able to install RPMs as a user, yet that's *definitely* an "I know better than you" situation of a program being crippled. My $0.02: Shut up and stop running as "root" unless you're actively configuring stuff which requires "root" permissions. If you just want to be able to install an RPM or something, open a console window, su to root and run the rpm installer. Stop trying to defeat the security that's inherent in linux and run as a "user!" John
Re: [expert] Mandrake's Arrogance
You and your guru is absolutely right Pj! We have all seen what running without a net under Microsoft means! Bambi Pj wrote: My guru wasn't very polite about /root. He said something to the effect of, "Stay the he** out of root unless you are making a system change." It was good advise then and it is good advice today. Pj
Re: [expert] Mandrake's Arrogance
Great analogy Michael! Bambi "Michael R. Batchelor" wrote: I find it arrogant that Mandrake would deliberatly cripple the functionality of programs in order to prohibit certain behavior that they have decided is inappropriate. This kind of "I know better than you" unwelcomed paternalistic coercion is awfully Microsoft-ish. Is this the direction Mandrake is heading? Yuck! I think it more like good solid design. We work machines in my line of work, and without safety limits it's easy to get killed or hurt very badly. So when we design something we put restrictions on what the operator can do. However, it's also necessary for someone to fix it occasionally, so we design a "maintenance mode" to defeat the safeties, but we don't make it easy to do by accident. (That's what root is, the UNIX "maintenance mode" user.) Now, after the machine is in the plant there is absolutely nothing in world to stop the plant personnel from shoving a pencil in the safety switch and running the machine with the doors open. And there is nothing in the world stopping you from reconfiguring anything on your machine to work any way you feel like it should work. But, in the same way it would be irresponsible of us to deliver a machine that's unsafe to operate, it would be irresponsible of Mandrake to deliver a configuration that's unsafe. (And if you really want to see somebody making decisions for you, install an OpenBSD system. It's locked up tight as a drum! And they do it on purpose!) Michael
Re: [expert] Mandrake's Arrogance
On Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 12:25:51PM -0400, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Mandrake is not being arrogant here. This has nothing to do with crippling functionality, but rather with turning a multi-user operating system into something resembling a "desktop OS." I think it's ineveitable that these problems will arise. I don't know of a good way to solve it; do you? Yes ... leave the OS be ... if you want to use it, you gotta learn about it! So you're saying that we should intentionally make the distribution insecure? Because that's what running irc as root would do. Running irc as root is the stupidest thing anyone could ever do, and many people don't even know it. I know people who have run Linux right from the get-go as root without ever making a user account for themselves and they found themselves *very* sorry in a very short time. With what you are suggesting, I gather we shouldn't worry about security updates either. I mean, if there's a root exploit in, say, your dhcp client, well, we should leave the OS alone and let the user download and compile the source themselves if that's what they choose. For people who want that level of being "left alone", I typically recommend Slackware. Since we're not trying to be difficult, or destructive (and, I'm sure, save ourselves support calls on users doing things they should know better than to but may not), we do a little bit of "hand holding" in what we think is appropriate. I don't think it will ever get to the point where we're as dictatorial as MS (ie. I don't think we will ever make Netscape an unremovable package), but we do have to do some things to make the users safe from themselves. -- [EMAIL PROTECTED], OpenPGP key available on www.keyserver.net Freezer Burn BBS: telnet://bbs.freezer-burn.org . ICQ: 54924721 Webmaster for the Linux Portal Site Freezer Burn: http://www.freezer-burn.org Current Linux uptime: 19 hours 17 minutes.
Re: [expert] Mandrake's Arrogance
Not everyone wants or needs to take the kind of chances you do. Not everyone wants or needs to, as you suggest, reinstall due to running as root and opening yourself up to invasion and loss. Not everyone wants or needs to take the unnecessary time to do that...su is not hard! If everyone wanted this kind of abuse ... they could have stayed with Windows and gotten all they wanted! Bambi Fireman71 wrote: Hmmm, i run root all the time and will continue to do so. couple of reasons. I got tired of typing su and sudo about every 3rd command. I got tired of not being able to cd into some of my directories. When i make a mistake as root and wipe out half my file system, so what, its no big deal to me. I am not NASA or the pentagon. I am a, in my opinion, typical homeuser. There is nothing installed on my system that would cause the world to end if it gets erased or deleted. It would only be me spending my time reinstalling everything. Big deal. Now yes i can see this when you get into systems that have several users, or at places such as banks, universities, governments, etc. But for the typical home user i dont see that it is that big a deal to run root so long as they arent going to go crying and whining that they erased half their files. If they are willing to accept that chance on their own machines i say get off their back and let them. As for the IRC stuff, I pulled up xchat in kde and started it up. It gave me two warnings. One when it started saying i shouldnt irc as root and then another when i tried to connect with root as my screen name. I changed my screenname and clicked connect. Logged in just fine. Got the channel list, joined a few rooms, etc. So apparently the only thing is that you cant use root as your screenname. At least that is what happened in my case. and btw, i logged onto Undernet US, irc.dal.net, irc.gimp.net, and irc.foxchat.net. I didnt have any problems what so ever. Just had to change my screenname from root and it looked like the two warnings were originating from the program xchat and not from the servers. Ian K. Harrell [EMAIL PROTECTED] Are you folks who are complaining running as _root_? This is something not to be done, for many reasons, including the fact that you get kicked from most IRC servers. Well, talk to the folks out on irc or try to run irc as root and see what happens. Most servers out there will log you off with a message, and not always a nice one. "Don't irc as root" was about the most polite I got. Anyway, nothing is prevented, just made a little harder to do, so that you remember you are in root. How do you think I stumbled across the server behavior? I appreciate the reminder so I don't endanger myself quite so much.
Re: [expert] Mandrake's Arrogance
I welcome the new security options and root should be avoided. But, I don't have time to read up on all the new changes. In an upgrade to 8.0 I would expect a sharp learning curve. I would like some response when I run into these new walls built by Mandrake. A note in the new security logs would be helpful. "Root tried to do foofoo and that is not allowed". We are all used to the lengthy tweaking period after a new install, but now I have to wonder if every little glitch is caused by the new security. pelon On Fri, 21 Jul 2000, you wrote: My understanding is that this is a UNIX/LINUX thing, not a Mandrake thing. Other distros would have the same functionality (I use this word intentionally!) One needs to understand that Root is not a user! Root is administrator. Get that one and you will keep your system longer than anyone who uses a Windows-based system...including NT/2000 where users are generally only given domain USER rights, but are sometimes given admin capabilities. When they are given these extra privileges, they should be given two separate logins ... one for normal use and one for admin responsibilities to keep the network secure. Most network administrators know this, but some still don't get it. Bambi
Re: [expert] Mandrake's Arrogance
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hoyt wrote: - Original Message - From: "Civileme" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, July 21, 2000 1:34 AM Subject: [expert] RIGHT CLICK--NEW - Folder Are you folks who are complaining running as _root_? This is something not to be done, for many reasons, including the fact that you get kicked from most IRC servers. I find it arrogant that Mandrake would deliberatly cripple the functionality of programs in order to prohibit certain behavior that they have decided is inappropriate. This kind of "I know better than you" unwelcomed paternalistic coercion is awfully Microsoft-ish. Is this the direction Mandrake is heading? Yuck! Hoyt Hear! Hear!! ... One of the several reasons I switched from Mandrake to SuSE!!!. Sorry, not to be rude ( honestly I mean that ), but if you knew enough of what you were doing to safely run as root, this 'disabilities' wouldn't cause a problem. Sean Middleditch simon
Re: [expert] Mandrake's Arrogance
If you're a SuSE fan then seems you're hanging around the wrong list, wouldn't you say ? :-) philomena [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hoyt wrote: - Original Message - From: "Civileme" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, July 21, 2000 1:34 AM Subject: [expert] RIGHT CLICK--NEW - Folder Are you folks who are complaining running as _root_? This is something not to be done, for many reasons, including the fact that you get kicked from most IRC servers. I find it arrogant that Mandrake would deliberatly cripple the functionality of programs in order to prohibit certain behavior that they have decided is inappropriate. This kind of "I know better than you" unwelcomed paternalistic coercion is awfully Microsoft-ish. Is this the direction Mandrake is heading? Yuck! Hoyt Hear! Hear!! ... One of the several reasons I switched from Mandrake to SuSE!!!. simon
Re: [expert] Mandrake's Arrogance
Fran Parker wrote: Not everyone wants or needs to take the kind of chances you do. Not everyone wants or needs to, as you suggest, reinstall due to running as root and opening yourself up to invasion and loss. Not everyone wants or needs to take the unnecessary time to do that...su is not hard! I think you're being just a tad over-dramatic there... I have to run as root for very long periods of time (setting a server for DNS+HTTPD+dial in, and copying a Support Web system I made over, and setting up MySQL... about 4 hours logged in only as root getting this all set up) and never have any problems. The only serious issue I've had so far is when I installed my new motherboard, and that's because I deleted the parition /boot was mounted to (it needed to be redone to install lilo, since I wasn't using another hard-drive as primary any more). Other than that, I've never screwed up a system as root. If everyone wanted this kind of abuse ... they could have stayed with Windows and gotten all they wanted!
Re: [expert] Mandrake's Arrogance
Come back in a couple of years (if you are still using Linux) and tells us you are still logging in as root only. On Fri, 21 Jul 2000, you wrote: Fran Parker wrote: Not everyone wants or needs to take the kind of chances you do. Not everyone wants or needs to, as you suggest, reinstall due to running as root and opening yourself up to invasion and loss. Not everyone wants or needs to take the unnecessary time to do that...su is not hard! I think you're being just a tad over-dramatic there... I have to run as root for very long periods of time (setting a server for DNS+HTTPD+dial in, and copying a Support Web system I made over, and setting up MySQL... about 4 hours logged in only as root getting this all set up) and never have any problems. The only serious issue I've had so far is when I installed my new motherboard, and that's because I deleted the parition /boot was mounted to (it needed to be redone to install lilo, since I wasn't using another hard-drive as primary any more). Other than that, I've never screwed up a system as root. If everyone wanted this kind of abuse ... they could have stayed with Windows and gotten all they wanted! -- Kenneth Archer + San Antonio, Texas [EMAIL PROTECTED] ICQ #24980801 Powered by Linux ++ Mailed by Kmail
Re: [expert] Mandrake's Arrogance
On Fri, 21 Jul 2000, Fireman71 wrote: Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 18:16:53 -0400 From: Fireman71 [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [expert] Mandrake's Arrogance Hmmm, i run root all the time and will continue to do so. couple of reasons. I got tired of typing su and sudo about every 3rd command. I got tired of not being able to cd into some of my directories. There is a good point to that, but you can just make your regular user have the permissions of root by putting him in the proper groups in /etc/group. But I still shun away from that for purposes of protection. When i make a mistake as root and wipe out half my file system, so what, its no big deal to me. I am not NASA or the pentagon. I am a, in my opinion, typical homeuser. There is nothing installed on my system that would cause the world to end if it gets erased or deleted. It would only be me spending my time reinstalling everything. Big deal. Now yes i can see this when you get into systems that have several users, or at places such as banks, universities, governments, etc. But for the typical home user i dont see that it is that big a deal to run root so long as they arent going to go crying and whining that they erased half their files. If they are willing to accept that chance on their own machines i say get off their back and let them. Hmm.. I never met anyone that carefree about their machine. As for the IRC stuff, I pulled up xchat in kde and started it up. It gave me two warnings. One when it started saying i shouldnt irc as root and then another when i tried to connect with root as my screen name. I changed my screenname and clicked connect. Logged in just fine. Got the channel list, joined a few rooms, etc. There are ways to get around just about anything... So apparently the only thing is that you cant use root as your screenname. At least that is what happened in my case. and btw, i logged onto Undernet US, irc.dal.net, irc.gimp.net, and irc.foxchat.net. I didnt have any problems what so ever. Just had to change my screenname from root and it looked like the two warnings were originating from the program xchat and not from the servers. In general, I would recommend that you just chgrp the directories that you need to cd in often to the gid of your normal user, and give the proper permissions, and change the permission of root stuff you use often. At least that makes you a poweruser, and not god. Ian K. Harrell [EMAIL PROTECTED] Are you folks who are complaining running as _root_? This is something not to be done, for many reasons, including the fact that you get kicked from most IRC servers. Well, talk to the folks out on irc or try to run irc as root and see what happens. Most servers out there will log you off with a message, and not always a nice one. "Don't irc as root" was about the most polite I got. Anyway, nothing is prevented, just made a little harder to do, so that you remember you are in root. How do you think I stumbled across the server behavior? I appreciate the reminder so I don't endanger myself quite so much. -- Regards, Ellick Chan [EMAIL PROTECTED] Jul 21
