[FairfieldLife] Re: 'Bevan and John Confronting Maharishi?'
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, gerbal88 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > on 8/25/05 12:35 PM, gerbal88 at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > > > > > Well said. I finally saw that the emperor's new clothes were > > > not what I wanted to believe and left. It took nearly 30 more > > > years before I > > > found someone who embodied the wisdom I had only read about. > > > > Who? > > Y'know, Rick, I have thought about this and thought. If I give > you a name, it won't be important. What is important is to find > a way to be very aware of exactly what you are experiencing, > right now. > > It is important to be very open to what you hear, see, feel, > experience, sense and then to not let that go until you have > seen it for what it is. > > Sorry. It's the best I can do. > > Sometimes, at least for me, it is a matter of comparing what I > learned from and about MMY/MCS/MPV/BBM (so many names for one > little man) and then comparing that with what I know about myself, > what I have learned since those days when the Emperor's new > clothes were seen, suddenly, one day, just as they were. > > It is important to keep moving on. When you think you are there, > when you think "this is it", well, it may be close and it may be > important, but you are it and thinking somthing outside yourself > is it is missing the point. Well, and gracefully, said. It ties in well with what I found myself laughing about this morning as I woke up. (I love waking myself up with laughter.) I was thinking back on all these dis- cussions here lately of what constitutes a "real" teacher, and I found myself remembering P. J. O'Rourke's marvelous one-liner about responsibility: "One of the annoying things about believing in free will and individual responsibility is the difficulty of finding somebody to blame your problems on. And when you do find somebody, it's remarkable how often his picture turns up on your driver's license." What made me laugh was the realization that in MOST of the discussions one finds on the Internet about what constitutes a "real" teacher, the definition is usually, "Mine." :-) You gracefully avoided that, and came up with a better definition: "You, as long as you keep learning." Unc - Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: 'Bevan and John Confronting Maharishi?'
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > on 8/25/05 12:35 PM, gerbal88 at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > > > Well said. I finally saw that the emperor's new clothes were not what > > I wanted to believe and left. It took nearly 30 more years before I > > found someone who embodied the wisdom I had only read about. > > Who? Y'know, Rick, I have thought about this and thought. If I give you a name, it won't be important. What is important is to find a way to be very aware of exactly what you are experiencing, right now. It is important to be very open to what you hear, see, feel, experience, sense and then to not let that go until you have seen it for what it is. Sorry. It's the best I can do. Sometimes, at least for me, it is a matter of comparing what I learned from and about MMY/MCS/MPV/BBM (so many names for one little man) and then comparing that with what I know about myself, what I havelearned since those days when the Emperor's new clothes were seen, suddenly, one day, just as they were. It is important to keep moving on. When you think you are there, when you think "this is it", well, it may be close and it may be important, but you are it and thinking somthing outside yourself is it ismissing the point. G Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: 'Bevan and John Confronting Maharishi?'
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > Just to be fair, someone should point out that what > > > you're calling a "real" master may just be one that > > > appeals to your sensibilities or predilection. > > > > Not sure if you were addressing Vaj or G (me); but from my > > perspective, I follow the advice given by HH the Dalai Lama: > > examine your teacher, even if it takes you 12 years. > > Can't knock the Dalai Lama. I make no assumptions > about his enlightenment or lack thereof, even having > met him, but I respect him thoroughly. No one, in > my opinion, could have done a better job of being > the most visible Buddhist on the planet. > > > When I (G) say "real" spiritual master, I mean someone who has > > demonstrated his own achievements to my questioning, skeptical mind > > and then laid out for me what I have to do if I want to get there. > > Cool. Important clarification. > > > Then, I try it (complete with bitching and stupid questions) and > > see what happens. > > Great plan. > > > Something I learned from MMY/MCS: others may notice something > > before you do. > > And after. Otherwise, why are there so many TBs? :-) > > > That's not altogether off track. I take the remarks of others with > > the proverbial grain of sodium chloride -- but a home truth or two > > isn't always amiss, one way or another. > > Another great plan. The stuff you hear on boards like > this one is a lot like the stuff you hear from teachers. > Some of it goes in one chakra and out another, some of > it "sticks." If it proves useful, even for a short > while, IMO the source doesn't matter. I've had great > spiritual revelations from movies (obviously, given the > currently-active thread) and from bums I've met on the > street. I don't have to think of them as my formal > spiritual teachers, but in one sense all of them were. This is a great board. What you just said/typed, whatever, above says more about you than the "teachers" -- but this is, I think, as it should be. I like the Sufi saying: the thread, by virtue of being drawn through the jewel, is not thereby ennobled. The spiritual quest (is there a better term?) is not one of being drawn through jewel after jewel, but of intense self-examination so that one can be open to the teacher who appears when one is ready. It would be extremely difficult, given the complexity of humanity, to declare one teacher, one method, one way to be the only way or the absolute way. I can only see the "only way" for myself: to be open to what I might find and to see, as best I am able, what it is for me. Just maybe true spiritual progress is knowing when to move on. G Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: 'Bevan and John Confronting Maharishi?'
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > As I just pointed out to Vaj, you might want to be > > > careful that you're not simply mistaking your current > > > point of view for "wisdom" and your current limited > > > definition of a "real" teacher for reality. As you > > > yourself said, just one post ago: > > > > > > > The vast majority forgets and then does it > > > > again, certain (yes, that difficult word that > > > > ascertains our demise again and again) they > > > > have got it right this time. > > > > > > :-) > > > > I think > > you are right; but it has been near a 40 year endeavour and I > > have found a techer who teaches in the way he was taught, which was > > the way his teacher was taught, and so on. > > Cool. Wasn't seeking to diminish that, only to > point out that 40 years from now (karma willing) > you might have a different opinion of him as well. Yes, that may well be the case. I cannot know the future. > > Long ago I became very cynical and skeptical about my own abilities > > to evaluate things. So I have done a lot of searching and > > questioning. Responses, like yours above (which I think is very > > apt) have also been invaluable guides along the way. > > In my case as well. That's one reason I like FFL. :-) > > Hopefully we'll NEVER figure it all out. What would > be left to do for fun? Teach others? G Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 'Bevan and John Confronting Maharishi?'
On 8/26/05 2:18 AM, "TurquoiseB" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > What ever happened to "different strokes > for different folks?" And what about those seekers who > are not in any way turned on by guru yoga, for whom it > such a process is completely contrary to their predilection? Then it's not for them, however it's important to point out what I mean by "guru yoga" may not be what you think I mean. I am not referring to "guru worship" or "guru adulation" but the process of being the guru yourself. Generally there are outer, inner, secret and super-secret aspects of unification with the guru (where the word "secret" means "self-secret"). > "Should" they be forced to submit to a process that is > not in line with what activates higher perceptions for > them, or might they be happier with an "uncertified" > teacher from a tradition that doesn't believe in "gurus?" Different gurus for different people. Some siddhas had non-human gurus from other dimensions. There was one siddha whose guru was his dog. The possibilities are truly endless. One of the guru-yogas I use is for a master from the Treta yuga. Now this human no longer manifests a form in the physical dimension, but sure enough this process and method specific to his teaching taps you into that stream of consciousness. It's like he never "died" and it's also like nudging that own aspect of the teaching inside into awake mode. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: 'Bevan and John Confronting Maharishi?'
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: [snip] > > Can't knock the Dalai Lama. I can. I simply cannot understand all the hoopla about this man. His teaching of non-violence helped enable the slaughter of 1.5 million of his people by the Red Chinese. A little less ultra-non-violence and a little more nuclear ultra violence would have gone a long way to saving those 1.5 million. > I make no assumptions > about his enlightenment or lack thereof, even having > met him, but I respect him thoroughly. No one, in > my opinion, could have done a better job of being > the most visible Buddhist on the planet. [snip] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: 'Bevan and John Confronting Maharishi?'
> > Just to be fair, someone should point out that what > > you're calling a "real" master may just be one that > > appeals to your sensibilities or predilection. > > Not sure if you were addressing Vaj or G (me); but from my > perspective, I follow the advice given by HH the Dalai Lama: > examine your teacher, even if it takes you 12 years. Can't knock the Dalai Lama. I make no assumptions about his enlightenment or lack thereof, even having met him, but I respect him thoroughly. No one, in my opinion, could have done a better job of being the most visible Buddhist on the planet. > When I (G) say "real" spiritual master, I mean someone who has > demonstrated his own achievements to my questioning, skeptical mind > and then laid out for me what I have to do if I want to get there. Cool. Important clarification. > Then, I try it (complete with bitching and stupid questions) and > see what happens. Great plan. > Something I learned from MMY/MCS: others may notice something > before you do. And after. Otherwise, why are there so many TBs? :-) > That's not altogether off track. I take the remarks of others with > the proverbial grain of sodium chloride -- but a home truth or two > isn't always amiss, one way or another. Another great plan. The stuff you hear on boards like this one is a lot like the stuff you hear from teachers. Some of it goes in one chakra and out another, some of it "sticks." If it proves useful, even for a short while, IMO the source doesn't matter. I've had great spiritual revelations from movies (obviously, given the currently-active thread) and from bums I've met on the street. I don't have to think of them as my formal spiritual teachers, but in one sense all of them were. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: 'Bevan and John Confronting Maharishi?'
> > As I just pointed out to Vaj, you might want to be > > careful that you're not simply mistaking your current > > point of view for "wisdom" and your current limited > > definition of a "real" teacher for reality. As you > > yourself said, just one post ago: > > > > > The vast majority forgets and then does it > > > again, certain (yes, that difficult word that > > > ascertains our demise again and again) they > > > have got it right this time. > > > > :-) > > I think > you are right; but it has been near a 40 year endeavour and I > have found a techer who teaches in the way he was taught, which was > the way his teacher was taught, and so on. Cool. Wasn't seeking to diminish that, only to point out that 40 years from now (karma willing) you might have a different opinion of him as well. > Long ago I became very cynical and skeptical about my own abilities > to evaluate things. So I have done a lot of searching and > questioning. Responses, like yours above (which I think is very > apt) have also been invaluable guides along the way. In my case as well. That's one reason I like FFL. :-) Hopefully we'll NEVER figure it all out. What would be left to do for fun? Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: 'Bevan and John Confronting Maharishi?'
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On 8/25/05 3:11 PM, "TurquoiseB" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >> On 8/25/05 12:50 PM, "gerbal88" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >> > >>> A true spiritual master shows you how to be > >>> your own master. I don't see MMY/MCS EVER dabbling in this sort > >>> of counterproductive thinking! > >> > >> One thing is only obvious once one can gain some perspective > >> (e.g. after one has met a real master of meditation or yoga) or > >> simply has deep discrimination (between the real and the phony). > >> Once one has > >> met the former, it's immediately obvious what MMY represents. > > > > Just to be fair, someone should point out that what > > you're calling a "real" master may just be one that > > appeals to your sensibilities or predilection. > > But that is not what I am referring to. Consider for example > traditions which demand you train in the specific experiences > and learn them from someone who's 'been there, done that'. > There is verification all along the way--if you're a "master" > of something--there also should be a reason you are called that, > not merely because you grew a beard and put on a silk dhoti > and can rehash what the pundits feed you ;-). Agreed. My main problem is with the use of the word "master." I try to NEVER use it, because of its dual meaning, and propensity for students to confuse one with the other. It's the same reason I try NEVER to refer to someone "attaining" enlightenment or "reaching" enlightenment, or "becoming" enlightened. It's an inaccurate and potentially misleading term. So, in my opinion, is "master." Ick. Never touch the stuff. :-) But you've got a point about being able to walk the walk. What I was poking fun at in my reply above is the assumption that you've met a "real" "master." As I pointed out to gerbal, hat's an assumption that is based on your Experience So Far, and your personal definition of "real" could change tomorrow. That's all. > If someone is a master they should have mastered the states > they speak of and be capable of leading others to that > experience, themselves being master of the various practices > which are used for differing students. Furthermore > they should possess the signs of such mastery. That's your opinion, which I respect, but don't neces- sarily agree with. I am unconvinced that *any* teacher inherently has the ability to lead others to permanent enlightenment. Lead them to experiences along the Way, many of them having the qualities of enlightenment, no problem. But permanent enlightenment is not something that anyone can be led to, IMO. They have to discover it themselves. Just a language nitpick, but it speaks to my own personal definition of a "real" teacher, if I had one. :-) Bottom line for me is that people tend to get the teachers their selves think they can handle. At the point where their selves get uncomfortable with the teacher, either because the self is diminshed and doesn't need that teacher any more or because the teacher is pushing the self's buttons and it is afraid of diminishing, people move on. No problem, either way. I don't believe that there exists a teacher that can go the whole Way with you, whoever you are. > In a valid, living tradition none of this should be ambiguous > or vague, but clear and present. Should? I thought we were dealing with real life. :-) > As a couple of us have mentioned on this list and a.m.t, > this often means having a guru mantra so you too can become > the guru. 'There should be no old students.' Should again. What ever happened to "different strokes for different folks?" And what about those seekers who are not in any way turned on by guru yoga, for whom it such a process is completely contrary to their predilection? "Should" they be forced to submit to a process that is not in line with what activates higher perceptions for them, or might they be happier with an "uncertified" teacher from a tradition that doesn't believe in "gurus?" These are just question, Vaj. You've been making declar- ations again, and I'm not challenging them, within the frame of reference that they exist in, merely pointing out that there are other frames of reference. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is
[FairfieldLife] Re: 'Bevan and John Confronting Maharishi?'
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > On 8/25/05 7:07 PM, "gerbal88" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > Not sure if you were addressing Vaj or G (me); but from my > > perspective, I follow the advice given by HH the Dalai Lama: examine > > your teacher, even if it takes you 12 years. > > > > When I (G) say "real" spiritual master, I mean someone who has > > demonstrated his own achievements to my questioning, skeptical mind > > and then laid out for me what I have to do if I want to get there. > > My root teacher not only insisted I question everything he says, he was also > kind enough to give instruction on: > > -following various teachers and virtuous companions > -becoming skilled in examining the teacher > -the characteristics of a teacher worthy of following > -the characteristics of a teacher not worthy of following > -the characteristics of disciples worthy or unworthy of being accepted > -becoming skilled in following a teacher > -becoming skilled in acquiring the teacher's knowledge and behavior > > I have tested all these teaching through direct, perosnal experience and > have found them invaluable. My only regret is that I didn't receive them > sooner! Betcha he's a big fan of the Middle Way, and the Tao... Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: 'Bevan and John Confronting Maharishi?'
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > On 8/25/05 12:50 PM, "gerbal88" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > A true spiritual master shows you how to be > > > your own master. I don't see MMY/MCS EVER dabbling in this sort of > > > counterproductive thinking! > > > > One thing is only obvious once one can gain some perspective (e.g. > > after one has met a real master of meditation or yoga) or simply has > > deep discrimination (between the real and the phony). Once one has > > met the former, it's immediately obvious what MMY represents. > > Just to be fair, someone should point out that what > you're calling a "real" master may just be one that > appeals to your sensibilities or predilection. Like duh, but like many former TMers, he wants what he thought MMY promised and didn't deliver, so he seeks it elsewhere. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: 'Bevan and John Confronting Maharishi?'
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "shempmcgurk" [...] > Me, too! I love the Sidhis and the flying technique. But they are > adjuncts, that's all... As MMY clearly has stated. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 'Bevan and John Confronting Maharishi?'
on 8/25/05 12:35 PM, gerbal88 at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > Well said. I finally saw that the emperor's new clothes were not what > I wanted to believe and left. It took nearly 30 more years before I > found someone who embodied the wisdom I had only read about. Who? Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: 'Bevan and John Confronting Maharishi?'
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "shempmcgurk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > On 8/25/05 12:50 PM, "gerbal88" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > > A true spiritual master shows you how to be > > > > your own master. I don't see MMY/MCS EVER dabbling in this sort > of > > > > counterproductive thinking! > > > > > > One thing is only obvious once one can gain some perspective (e.g. > > > after one has met a real master of meditation or yoga) or simply > has > > > deep discrimination (between the real and the phony). Once one has > > > met the former, it's immediately obvious what MMY represents. > > > > Just to be fair, someone should point out that what > > you're calling a "real" master may just be one that > > appeals to your sensibilities or predilection. > > But how can a Master be anything but that...ever? Perhaps a real Master is probably *not* someone who or something which will comfort us with appealing to our sensibilities or predilection, or at least not beyond lulling us just enough to let our guard down for the *killing blow* of Grace :-) Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: 'Bevan and John Confronting Maharishi?'
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, gerbal88 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Something I learned from MMY/MCS: others may notice something > before you do. What does "MCS" stand for? Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 'Bevan and John Confronting Maharishi?'
On 8/25/05 7:07 PM, "gerbal88" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Not sure if you were addressing Vaj or G (me); but from my > perspective, I follow the advice given by HH the Dalai Lama: examine > your teacher, even if it takes you 12 years. > > When I (G) say "real" spiritual master, I mean someone who has > demonstrated his own achievements to my questioning, skeptical mind > and then laid out for me what I have to do if I want to get there. My root teacher not only insisted I question everything he says, he was also kind enough to give instruction on: -following various teachers and virtuous companions -becoming skilled in examining the teacher -the characteristics of a teacher worthy of following -the characteristics of a teacher not worthy of following -the characteristics of disciples worthy or unworthy of being accepted -becoming skilled in following a teacher -becoming skilled in acquiring the teacher's knowledge and behavior I have tested all these teaching through direct, perosnal experience and have found them invaluable. My only regret is that I didn't receive them sooner! Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: 'Bevan and John Confronting Maharishi?'
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > On 8/25/05 12:50 PM, "gerbal88" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > A true spiritual master shows you how to be > > > your own master. I don't see MMY/MCS EVER dabbling in this sort of > > > counterproductive thinking! > > > > One thing is only obvious once one can gain some perspective (e.g. > > after one has met a real master of meditation or yoga) or simply has > > deep discrimination (between the real and the phony). Once one has > > met the former, it's immediately obvious what MMY represents. > > Just to be fair, someone should point out that what > you're calling a "real" master may just be one that > appeals to your sensibilities or predilection. Not sure if you were addressing Vaj or G (me); but from my perspective, I follow the advice given by HH the Dalai Lama: examine your teacher, even if it takes you 12 years. When I (G) say "real" spiritual master, I mean someone who has demonstrated his own achievements to my questioning, skeptical mind and then laid out for me what I have to do if I want to get there. Then, I try it (complete with bitching and stupid questions) and see what happens. Something I learned from MMY/MCS: others may notice something before you do. That's not altogether off track. I take the remarks of others with the proverbial grain of sodium chloride -- but a home truth or two isn't always amiss, one way or another. G Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: 'Bevan and John Confronting Maharishi?'
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, gerbal88 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > On 8/25/05 12:50 PM, "gerbal88" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > > A true spiritual master shows you how to be > > > > your own master. I don't see MMY/MCS EVER dabbling in this sort > > > > of counterproductive thinking! > > > > > > One thing is only obvious once one can gain some perspective > > > (e.g. after one has met a real master of meditation or yoga) > > > or simply has deep discrimination (between the real and the > > > phony). Once one has met the > > > former, it's immediately obvious what MMY represents. > > > > Well said. I finally saw that the emperor's new clothes were not what > > I wanted to believe and left. It took nearly 30 more years before I > > found someone who embodied the wisdom I had only read about. > > As I just pointed out to Vaj, you might want to be > careful that you're not simply mistaking your current > point of view for "wisdom" and your current limited > definition of a "real" teacher for reality. As you > yourself said, just one post ago: > > > The vast majority forgets and then does it > > again, certain (yes, that difficult word that > > ascertains our demise again and again) they > > have got it right this time. > > :-) I think you are right; but it has been near a 40 year endeavour and I have found a techer who teaches in the way he was taught, which was the way his teacher was taught, and so on. Long ago I became very cynical and skeptical about my own abilities to evaluate things. So I have done a lot of searching and questioning. Responses, like yours above (which I think is very apt) have also been invaluable guides along the way. B Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 'Bevan and John Confronting Maharishi?'
On 8/25/05 3:11 PM, "TurquoiseB" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> On 8/25/05 12:50 PM, "gerbal88" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> >>> A true spiritual master shows you how to be >>> your own master. I don't see MMY/MCS EVER dabbling in this sort of >>> counterproductive thinking! >> >> One thing is only obvious once one can gain some perspective (e.g. >> after one has met a real master of meditation or yoga) or simply has >> deep discrimination (between the real and the phony). Once one has >> met the former, it's immediately obvious what MMY represents. > > Just to be fair, someone should point out that what > you're calling a "real" master may just be one that > appeals to your sensibilities or predilection. But that is not what I am referring to. Consider for example traditions which demand you train in the specific experiences and learn them from someone who's 'been there, done that'. There is verification all along the way--if you're a "master" of something--there also should be a reason you are called that, not merely because you grew a beard and put on a silk dhoti and can rehash what the pundits feed you ;-). If someone is a master they should have mastered the states they speak of and be capable of leading others to that experience, themselves being master of the various practices which are used for differing students. Furthermore they should possess the signs of such mastery. In a valid, living tradition none of this should be ambiguous or vague, but clear and present. As a couple of us have mentioned on this list and a.m.t, this often means having a guru mantra so you too can become the guru. 'There should be no old students.' Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: 'Bevan and John Confronting Maharishi?'
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, gerbal88 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > > > On 8/25/05 12:57 PM, "shempmcgurk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > With all the craziness in the TMO over the past 20 years, I have > > > concluded that the purpose of all the madness is just that: MMY > > > wants us to be our own masters because to follow the silliness > > > that's coming out of the TMO is completely irrational. So the only > > > conclusion reasonable people must come up with is: ditch it all > and > > > follow your own heart. > > > > The only problem with that is MMY has not given the tools for > mastery of > > anything--he's only conditioned people that his overpriced > techniques can > > provide his definition of enlightenment (which they are conditioned > to > > believe provide such mastery). > > BINGO! > > I have been reading Arahattamagga Arahattaphala In Sanskrit that could be something like arhadmaargo 'rhatphalam. NOW you understand why Siddhaartha Gautama Shaakyamuni hated(?) Sanskrit?! (The Path to > Arahantship [lit: the path and fruit of arahantship]) by Acariya Maha > Boowa. I'm "afraid" it might be pure "ooga-booga"! ~;] It's available on the Internet. > > He talks about using a mantra to gain what TM'ers call CC. But it > goes much beyond that. > > He outlines the difficulties of this journey, the tools necessary to > understand what you are doing and in his own very long life of > teaching embodied those fruits of the path. Few will have heard of > Baha Boowa; he didn't sell stuff and he didn't make promises. > > G Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: 'Bevan and John Confronting Maharishi?'
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > on 8/25/05 12:16 PM, gerbal88 at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > My own feeling is that MMY/MCS had a great idea for making > > himself "an important person" (as one sometimes heard the Indian > > people speak). People were interested, but, ultimately, MMY/MCS felt > > he had failed. Then the Beatles made him famous (I imagine he dearly > > wished it had been the other way around; it probably didn't do his > > ego any good at all). > > One time in 1976 I was standing by Maharishi's couch and Rick > Stanley was telling him he wanted to get a multi-track tape > recorder like the one the Beatles had used to record Sgt. Pepper. > Maharishi became annoyed and brushed him off, saying the Beatles > had never done anything significant. I saw many similar things. The one thing the man never forgave was being rejected. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: 'Bevan and John Confronting Maharishi?'
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > On 8/25/05 12:50 PM, "gerbal88" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > A true spiritual master shows you how to be > > > your own master. I don't see MMY/MCS EVER dabbling in this sort of > > > counterproductive thinking! > > > > One thing is only obvious once one can gain some perspective (e.g. > > after one has met a real master of meditation or yoga) or simply has > > deep discrimination (between the real and the phony). Once one has > > met the former, it's immediately obvious what MMY represents. > > Just to be fair, someone should point out that what > you're calling a "real" master may just be one that > appeals to your sensibilities or predilection. But how can a Master be anything but that...ever? Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: 'Bevan and John Confronting Maharishi?'
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, gerbal88 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > On 8/25/05 12:50 PM, "gerbal88" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > A true spiritual master shows you how to be > > > your own master. I don't see MMY/MCS EVER dabbling in this sort > > > of counterproductive thinking! > > > > One thing is only obvious once one can gain some perspective > > (e.g. after one has met a real master of meditation or yoga) > > or simply has deep discrimination (between the real and the > > phony). Once one has met the > > former, it's immediately obvious what MMY represents. > > Well said. I finally saw that the emperor's new clothes were not what > I wanted to believe and left. It took nearly 30 more years before I > found someone who embodied the wisdom I had only read about. As I just pointed out to Vaj, you might want to be careful that you're not simply mistaking your current point of view for "wisdom" and your current limited definition of a "real" teacher for reality. As you yourself said, just one post ago: > The vast majority forgets and then does it > again, certain (yes, that difficult word that > ascertains our demise again and again) they > have got it right this time. :-) Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: 'Bevan and John Confronting Maharishi?'
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On 8/25/05 12:50 PM, "gerbal88" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > A true spiritual master shows you how to be > > your own master. I don't see MMY/MCS EVER dabbling in this sort of > > counterproductive thinking! > > One thing is only obvious once one can gain some perspective (e.g. > after one has met a real master of meditation or yoga) or simply has > deep discrimination (between the real and the phony). Once one has > met the former, it's immediately obvious what MMY represents. Just to be fair, someone should point out that what you're calling a "real" master may just be one that appeals to your sensibilities or predilection. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: 'Bevan and John Confronting Maharishi?'
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "jim_flanegin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "shempmcgurk" > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > On 8/25/05 12:57 PM, "shempmcgurk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > > With all the craziness in the TMO over the past 20 years, I > have > > > > concluded that the purpose of all the madness is just that: MMY > > > > wants us to be our own masters because to follow the silliness > > > > that's coming out of the TMO is completely irrational. So the > > only > > > > conclusion reasonable people must come up with is: ditch it > all > > and > > > > follow your own heart. > > > > > > The only problem with that is MMY has not given the tools for > > mastery of > > > anything--he's only conditioned people that his overpriced > > techniques can > > > provide his definition of enlightenment (which they are > > conditioned to > > > believe provide such mastery). > > > > I disagree. > > > > For years, it was just: "20 minutes twice a day and then go out > into > > the market place and live your life according to your own common > > sense, culture and traditions". > > > > It was those around him that kept asking him: "Yes, that's all > fine > > and good, Maharishi, but when are we going to get the real, secret > > knowledge?" > > > > And for years he kept saying: "there IS no secret knowledge; this > is > > it: TM. That's all you need." And those around him kept > > saying: "Sure, right, wink, wink, nudge, nudge...but when do we > get > > the really GOOD stuff, Maharishi?" > > > > And he kept repeating over and over and over again: this is it, > > you've got it all: TM...and those around him kept asking for the > > real stuff. > > > > Well, I think the True Believers (an oxymoron if ever there was > one) > > around MMY finally wore him down and so he said: they aren't > > listening to me. They want "the real stuff"? Okay, I guess I > have > > to give them "the real stuff"...and so off we went with sidhis, > > architecture, candy bars, honey, political parties, etc. > > > > I believe -- like Dorothy in the Wizard of OZ who always had the > > ability to get back to Kansas anytime she wanted -- we have always > > had the tools that you mention, only we've never wanted to use > them > > and to break free of our own self-imposed "we are followers of > > Maharishi and we'll do whatever he wants us to" mindset. I don't > > think MMY wanted that kind of relationship with the thousands > > of "followers" in the TMO, only a select few. > > > > So we do have the tools > > Agreed. Though I did find that the Sidhis were very valuable in > speeding up the purification of specific channels of my nervous > system, resulting in the ability to have GC experiences. TM as we > know works in a more wholistic fashion. Me, too! I love the Sidhis and the flying technique. But they are adjuncts, that's all... Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: 'Bevan and John Confronting Maharishi?'
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "shempmcgurk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > > > On 8/25/05 12:57 PM, "shempmcgurk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > With all the craziness in the TMO over the past 20 years, I have > > > concluded that the purpose of all the madness is just that: MMY > > > wants us to be our own masters because to follow the silliness > > > that's coming out of the TMO is completely irrational. So the > only > > > conclusion reasonable people must come up with is: ditch it all > and > > > follow your own heart. > > > > The only problem with that is MMY has not given the tools for > mastery of > > anything--he's only conditioned people that his overpriced > techniques can > > provide his definition of enlightenment (which they are > conditioned to > > believe provide such mastery). > > I disagree. > > For years, it was just: "20 minutes twice a day and then go out into > the market place and live your life according to your own common > sense, culture and traditions". > > It was those around him that kept asking him: "Yes, that's all fine > and good, Maharishi, but when are we going to get the real, secret > knowledge?" > > And for years he kept saying: "there IS no secret knowledge; this is > it: TM. That's all you need." And those around him kept > saying: "Sure, right, wink, wink, nudge, nudge...but when do we get > the really GOOD stuff, Maharishi?" > > And he kept repeating over and over and over again: this is it, > you've got it all: TM...and those around him kept asking for the > real stuff. > > Well, I think the True Believers (an oxymoron if ever there was one) > around MMY finally wore him down and so he said: they aren't > listening to me. They want "the real stuff"? Okay, I guess I have > to give them "the real stuff"...and so off we went with sidhis, > architecture, candy bars, honey, political parties, etc. > > I believe -- like Dorothy in the Wizard of OZ who always had the > ability to get back to Kansas anytime she wanted -- we have always > had the tools that you mention, only we've never wanted to use them > and to break free of our own self-imposed "we are followers of > Maharishi and we'll do whatever he wants us to" mindset. I don't > think MMY wanted that kind of relationship with the thousands > of "followers" in the TMO, only a select few. > > So we do have the tools Agreed. Though I did find that the Sidhis were very valuable in speeding up the purification of specific channels of my nervous system, resulting in the ability to have GC experiences. TM as we know works in a more wholistic fashion. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: 'Bevan and John Confronting Maharishi?'
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > on 8/25/05 12:16 PM, gerbal88 at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > My own feeling is that MMY/MCS had a great idea for making > > himself "an important person" (as one sometimes heard the Indian > > people speak). People were interested, but, ultimately, MMY/MCS felt > > he had failed. Then the Beatles made him famous (I imagine he dearly > > wished it had been the other way around; it probably didn't do his > > ego any good at all). > > One time in 1976 I was standing by Maharishi's couch and Rick Stanley was > telling him he wanted to get a multi-track tape recorder like the one the > Beatles had used to record Sgt. Pepper. Maharishi became annoyed and brushed > him off, saying the Beatles had never done anything significant. That's like saying no one should use banners to advertise their organisation because, after all, Hitler used banners at Nuremberg and see what horrible consequences came out of that... Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 'Bevan and John Confronting Maharishi?'
on 8/25/05 12:16 PM, gerbal88 at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > My own feeling is that MMY/MCS had a great idea for making > himself "an important person" (as one sometimes heard the Indian > people speak). People were interested, but, ultimately, MMY/MCS felt > he had failed. Then the Beatles made him famous (I imagine he dearly > wished it had been the other way around; it probably didn't do his > ego any good at all). One time in 1976 I was standing by Maharishi's couch and Rick Stanley was telling him he wanted to get a multi-track tape recorder like the one the Beatles had used to record Sgt. Pepper. Maharishi became annoyed and brushed him off, saying the Beatles had never done anything significant. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: 'Bevan and John Confronting Maharishi?'
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > On 8/25/05 12:57 PM, "shempmcgurk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > With all the craziness in the TMO over the past 20 years, I have > > concluded that the purpose of all the madness is just that: MMY > > wants us to be our own masters because to follow the silliness > > that's coming out of the TMO is completely irrational. So the only > > conclusion reasonable people must come up with is: ditch it all and > > follow your own heart. > > The only problem with that is MMY has not given the tools for mastery of > anything--he's only conditioned people that his overpriced techniques can > provide his definition of enlightenment (which they are conditioned to > believe provide such mastery). BINGO! I have been reading Arahattamagga Arahattaphala (The Path to Arahantship [lit: the path and fruit of arahantship]) by Acariya Maha Boowa. It's available on the Internet. He talks about using a mantra to gain what TM'ers call CC. But it goes much beyond that. He outlines the difficulties of this journey, the tools necessary to understand what you are doing and in his own very long life of teaching embodied those fruits of the path. Few will have heard of Baha Boowa; he didn't sell stuff and he didn't make promises. G Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: 'Bevan and John Confronting Maharishi?'
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > On 8/25/05 12:57 PM, "shempmcgurk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > With all the craziness in the TMO over the past 20 years, I have > > concluded that the purpose of all the madness is just that: MMY > > wants us to be our own masters because to follow the silliness > > that's coming out of the TMO is completely irrational. So the only > > conclusion reasonable people must come up with is: ditch it all and > > follow your own heart. > > The only problem with that is MMY has not given the tools for mastery of > anything--he's only conditioned people that his overpriced techniques can > provide his definition of enlightenment (which they are conditioned to > believe provide such mastery). I disagree. For years, it was just: "20 minutes twice a day and then go out into the market place and live your life according to your own common sense, culture and traditions". It was those around him that kept asking him: "Yes, that's all fine and good, Maharishi, but when are we going to get the real, secret knowledge?" And for years he kept saying: "there IS no secret knowledge; this is it: TM. That's all you need." And those around him kept saying: "Sure, right, wink, wink, nudge, nudge...but when do we get the really GOOD stuff, Maharishi?" And he kept repeating over and over and over again: this is it, you've got it all: TM...and those around him kept asking for the real stuff. Well, I think the True Believers (an oxymoron if ever there was one) around MMY finally wore him down and so he said: they aren't listening to me. They want "the real stuff"? Okay, I guess I have to give them "the real stuff"...and so off we went with sidhis, architecture, candy bars, honey, political parties, etc. I believe -- like Dorothy in the Wizard of OZ who always had the ability to get back to Kansas anytime she wanted -- we have always had the tools that you mention, only we've never wanted to use them and to break free of our own self-imposed "we are followers of Maharishi and we'll do whatever he wants us to" mindset. I don't think MMY wanted that kind of relationship with the thousands of "followers" in the TMO, only a select few. So we do have the tools Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: 'Bevan and John Confronting Maharishi?'
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > On 8/25/05 12:57 PM, "shempmcgurk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > With all the craziness in the TMO over the past 20 years, I have > > concluded that the purpose of all the madness is just that: MMY > > wants us to be our own masters because to follow the silliness > > that's coming out of the TMO is completely irrational. So the only > > conclusion reasonable people must come up with is: ditch it all and > > follow your own heart. > > The only problem with that is MMY has not given the tools for mastery of > anything--he's only conditioned people that his overpriced techniques can > provide his definition of enlightenment (which they are conditioned to > believe provide such mastery). There are always *two* messages a Master gives; one is obvious, tied to his/her obvious form, and the other is hidden, representing that which he/she identifies with. Why do you appear to focus on the later when speaking of the teachers you now respect, and focus on the former when speaking about Maharishi? Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 'Bevan and John Confronting Maharishi?'
On 8/25/05 1:43 PM, "jim_flanegin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > There are always *two* messages a Master gives; one is obvious, tied > to his/her obvious form, and the other is hidden, representing that > which he/she identifies with. I'm not sure I'd agree with that. > Why do you appear to focus on the later when speaking of the > teachers you now respect, and focus on the former when speaking > about Maharishi? I'm not looking at either/or, I'm looking at the biggest picture I can. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: 'Bevan and John Confronting Maharishi?'
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, gerbal88 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > > > On 8/25/05 12:50 PM, "gerbal88" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > A true spiritual master shows you how to be > > > your own master. I don't see MMY/MCS EVER dabbling in this sort of > > > counterproductive thinking! > > > > One thing is only obvious once one can gain some perspective (e.g. > after one > > has met a real master of meditation or yoga) or simply has deep > > discrimination (between the real and the phony). Once one has met the > > former, it's immediately obvious what MMY represents. > > Well said. I finally saw that the emperor's new clothes were not what > I wanted to believe and left. It took nearly 30 more years before I > found someone who embodied the wisdom I had only read about. > > G Hopefully, that was You! Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: 'Bevan and John Confronting Maharishi?'
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > on 8/25/05 11:57 AM, shempmcgurk at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > > "A true spiritual master shows you how to be your own master". > > > > With all the craziness in the TMO over the past 20 years, I have > > concluded that the purpose of all the madness is just that: MMY > > wants us to be our own masters because to follow the silliness > > that's coming out of the TMO is completely irrational. So the only > > conclusion reasonable people must come up with is: ditch it all and > > follow your own heart. > > Is this a conscious strategy on his part or has "nature" made him crazy to > have this effect, yet he thinks he's sane? IMO he IS Nature, as are all Masters of Reality, as are all of us masters of our reality indeed. By having the sincere intention of bringing enlightenment to his followers, he allows nature to work out the details. How it appears in any instant in time is of no concern to him. He is unquestioningly devoted to Nature. An analogy: When I am pulling my car out of the driveway to go to work, if you took a snapshot of me in my car at that time, you could show it to someone and declare, "Why is Jim pulling into the driveway? He should be going to work, that no good bum!". What is occurring though is you are looking at your selective snapshot of what is occurring, and making your own judgement about what it represents, the outcome of the action. So rather than judge the actions of Maharishi, IMO it is better to focus on our sincere intention for enlightenment and be pleasantly surprised where it leads us. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: 'Bevan and John Confronting Maharishi?'
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, gerbal88 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "shempmcgurk" > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, gerbal88 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > wrote: > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "jim_flanegin" > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > wrote: > > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > I don't see a problem with a Master being a Master. > > > > > > > > > > > > I understand this statement in the context of the rest > > > > > > of your post, Jim, but have to disagree with it anyway. > > > > > > I think part of the whole *problem* you discuss below > > > > > > is inherent in the term "Master" itself. In the minds > > > > > > of *most* people who hear it, it implies *two* things, > > > > > > not one. The first, which could be considered admirable, > > > > > > is "mastery." The second, which I personally feel has > > > > > > no place in spirituality, is "the dominant position in > > > > > > a master-disciple or master-slave relationship." The > > > > > > latter I see as completely *counterproductive* to the > > > > > > realization of enlightenment. > > > > > > My take is that MMY or MCS felt he was THE master over others. I > > think > > > he really felt HE was everyone's boss, so to speak. > > > > > > I think he would have been quite content with "my way or the > > highway" > > > as his modus operandi. A true spiritual master shows you how to > be > > > your own master. I don't see MMY/MCS EVER dabbling in this sort > of > > > counterproductive thinking! > > > > > > G > > > > > > "A true spiritual master shows you how to be your own master". > > > > With all the craziness in the TMO over the past 20 years, I have > > concluded that the purpose of all the madness is just that: MMY > > wants us to be our own masters because to follow the silliness > > that's coming out of the TMO is completely irrational. So the only > > conclusion reasonable people must come up with is: ditch it all and > > follow your own heart. > > I think that that is the inadvertent result: people are doing their > own thing, which is not exactly the same as having the guidance of a > true spiritual teacher. I agree, and perhaps in an ideal world having a direct personal relationship with an enlightened spiritual master is the best. But, of course, as MMY pointed out back in '73, in a world with 3.6 billion people that is not possible if we want to bring enlightenment to the masses. And that is why, of course, he "multiplied" himself into so many thousands of TM teachers and why we had a constant series of world plans and grand schemes. But as we all know, the world plans and grand schemes for whatever reasons -- and we can debate those reasons for years on end -- didn't work out. So being on one's own -- along with this great technique of TM -- isn't the best but under the circumstances is pretty damn good. And having to rely on some Master-on-a-video-tape just hasn't and isn't working out is what, I believe, MMY has concluded. And what better way to bring that message to the masses than to have them realize is on their own...'cause if he were to tell that to TMers directly, well, then, that would be defeating the whole purpose because that would be "followers" listening to and obeying "a master". So letting us realize this on our own is the best teaching a teacher can give...and he is giving us that message so unambiguously by presenting a TMO and a guru that is so out of whack with both reality AND, especially, the teachings of TM that there is ONLY one rational and reasonable conclusion that rational and reasonable people can come to: reject the silliness and follow your own heart. > > My own feeling is that MMY/MCS had a great idea for making > himself "an important person" (as one sometimes heard the Indian > people speak). People were interested, but, ultimately, MMY/MCS felt > he had failed. Then the Beatles made him famous (I imagine he dearly > wished it had been the other way around; it probably didn't do his > ego any good at all). > > So, he bounced back, with a vengence, making hoards of teachers and > then selling these teachers a real bill of goods. Then he opened up > the market. Very clever, but when I see "spirituality" for sale very, > very red flags go a'flappin'. > > He probably felt he was, now, "an important person", although in > Western eyes, he was, like the fab four said: the fool on the hill. > > In the sense of being poly-spiritual, he taught something of > interest. But being his devoted lap dog, as some seem to be, just > isn't my thing; I wonder about the mentality for which it is, > actually. Mono-spirituality sometimes has the tendency to produce our > most
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 'Bevan and John Confronting Maharishi?'
On 8/25/05 12:57 PM, "shempmcgurk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > With all the craziness in the TMO over the past 20 years, I have > concluded that the purpose of all the madness is just that: MMY > wants us to be our own masters because to follow the silliness > that's coming out of the TMO is completely irrational. So the only > conclusion reasonable people must come up with is: ditch it all and > follow your own heart. The only problem with that is MMY has not given the tools for mastery of anything--he's only conditioned people that his overpriced techniques can provide his definition of enlightenment (which they are conditioned to believe provide such mastery). Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: 'Bevan and John Confronting Maharishi?'
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > On 8/25/05 12:50 PM, "gerbal88" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > A true spiritual master shows you how to be > > your own master. I don't see MMY/MCS EVER dabbling in this sort of > > counterproductive thinking! > > One thing is only obvious once one can gain some perspective (e.g. after one > has met a real master of meditation or yoga) or simply has deep > discrimination (between the real and the phony). Once one has met the > former, it's immediately obvious what MMY represents. Well said. I finally saw that the emperor's new clothes were not what I wanted to believe and left. It took nearly 30 more years before I found someone who embodied the wisdom I had only read about. G Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 'Bevan and John Confronting Maharishi?'
On 8/25/05 12:50 PM, "gerbal88" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > A true spiritual master shows you how to be > your own master. I don't see MMY/MCS EVER dabbling in this sort of > counterproductive thinking! One thing is only obvious once one can gain some perspective (e.g. after one has met a real master of meditation or yoga) or simply has deep discrimination (between the real and the phony). Once one has met the former, it's immediately obvious what MMY represents. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: 'Bevan and John Confronting Maharishi?'
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "shempmcgurk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, gerbal88 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "jim_flanegin" > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > wrote: > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > I don't see a problem with a Master being a Master. > > > > > > > > > > I understand this statement in the context of the rest > > > > > of your post, Jim, but have to disagree with it anyway. > > > > > I think part of the whole *problem* you discuss below > > > > > is inherent in the term "Master" itself. In the minds > > > > > of *most* people who hear it, it implies *two* things, > > > > > not one. The first, which could be considered admirable, > > > > > is "mastery." The second, which I personally feel has > > > > > no place in spirituality, is "the dominant position in > > > > > a master-disciple or master-slave relationship." The > > > > > latter I see as completely *counterproductive* to the > > > > > realization of enlightenment. > > > > My take is that MMY or MCS felt he was THE master over others. I > think > > he really felt HE was everyone's boss, so to speak. > > > > I think he would have been quite content with "my way or the > highway" > > as his modus operandi. A true spiritual master shows you how to be > > your own master. I don't see MMY/MCS EVER dabbling in this sort of > > counterproductive thinking! > > > > G > > > "A true spiritual master shows you how to be your own master". > > With all the craziness in the TMO over the past 20 years, I have > concluded that the purpose of all the madness is just that: MMY > wants us to be our own masters because to follow the silliness > that's coming out of the TMO is completely irrational. So the only > conclusion reasonable people must come up with is: ditch it all and > follow your own heart. Yes! Be your own Master! Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: 'Bevan and John Confronting Maharishi?'
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "jim_flanegin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > wrote: > > > > I don't see a problem with a Master being a Master. > > > > > > I understand this statement in the context of the rest > > > of your post, Jim, but have to disagree with it anyway. > > > I think part of the whole *problem* you discuss below > > > is inherent in the term "Master" itself. In the minds > > > of *most* people who hear it, it implies *two* things, > > > not one. The first, which could be considered admirable, > > > is "mastery." The second, which I personally feel has > > > no place in spirituality, is "the dominant position in > > > a master-disciple or master-slave relationship." The > > > latter I see as completely *counterproductive* to the > > > realization of enlightenment. > > > > Yeah, this is where I probably should have said I meant a > > Master of Reality, not a master of people. I emphatically > > mean the former. The other wasn't considered at all. I use > > the term 'Master' in every day conversation to connote someone > > who has mastered what they do; cooking, dancing, singing, etc. > > In this case, knowing Reality. > > I understood that. I just wanted to make the point > that many if not most have in the back of their minds > the *two* connotations of "Master," and tend to get > them confused. Which basically creates and perpetuates > the very issue you were talking about. Yes, the small self as mischief maker! It is one of those baked in tests for us- Is a seeker really sincere in their quest for true freedom? Well, if not, there are infinite balls of yarn about waiting to tangle them up! > > > > > Nor is there a > > > > problem with a Master not wanting to be challenged. > > > > > > I see a problem in that when such a "Master" is clearly > > > *unwilling* or *resistant* to being challenged, it tends > > > (IMO) to indicate attachment or fear, which doesn't in my > > > mind imply that he has really developed mastery. > > > > Could just be what is needed in the moment. If the Master has no > > stories, no preconcieved notions of his existence, and no stored > > agendas to complete, then we can't really say what the indications > > or implication of a particular thought or action of his are, > > except > > from our point of view; how it affects us, or would affect us, or > > how someone else thought it affected them, which we believed. > > I can see your point, and on some levels agree with > it. It's just that I have had experience with some > teachers who were better at "busting" the tendencies > in students to react/overreact/misinterpret than is > Maharishi. Then again, their students reacted/over- > reacted/misinterpreted *anyway*, just in different > ways, so your point is valid and noted. Yep, it is critical in my view to stay focused on the goal and not get lost in the sauce. That focus will cleave through any illusions, be they ascribed to the Master or anything else. Interestingly, this entire commentary of mine was as a result of literally seeing Maharishi differently, laughing and existing in total freedom and bliss. That cognition spawned all of this. And there he remains in totality, in freedom, in laughter, and bliss. It was as a result of him appearing as such that I could 1)clearly distinquish the stories the seekers tell about him, and 2)validate his Mastery of Reality, as I benchmarked it earlier. And as we both agree, the stories will continue and the Master will continue. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: 'Bevan and John Confronting Maharishi?'
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > on 8/25/05 11:57 AM, shempmcgurk at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > > "A true spiritual master shows you how to be your own master". > > > > With all the craziness in the TMO over the past 20 years, I have > > concluded that the purpose of all the madness is just that: MMY > > wants us to be our own masters because to follow the silliness > > that's coming out of the TMO is completely irrational. So the only > > conclusion reasonable people must come up with is: ditch it all and > > follow your own heart. > > Is this a conscious strategy on his part or has "nature" made him crazy to > have this effect, yet he thinks he's sane? I have no idea. All I know is how and why I started TM and what I brought into the experience. I started TM because it was: 1) easy to do; 2) no belief was required; 3) I didn't have to give up my own traditions; 4) the little white book of scientific charts. I still hold to all those tenets so when the craziness started I tried to adapt -- I really tried to rationalize and justify it all, for years -- and then I realized that I wasn't being true to MMY's own vision, the original vision with which I started TM and to which to this day (32 years later) I do it twice daily. And then I realized that I had only one option: and that was to reject the irrational and accept the rational. And, thus, have no choice but to reject all the silliness and embrace the original vision. So, I am convinced, it is I who is "on the program" and all those who surround MMY who cater to and encourage his whims and grad schemes that are off the program. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: 'Bevan and John Confronting Maharishi?'
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "shempmcgurk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, gerbal88 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "jim_flanegin" > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > wrote: > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > I don't see a problem with a Master being a Master. > > > > > > > > > > I understand this statement in the context of the rest > > > > > of your post, Jim, but have to disagree with it anyway. > > > > > I think part of the whole *problem* you discuss below > > > > > is inherent in the term "Master" itself. In the minds > > > > > of *most* people who hear it, it implies *two* things, > > > > > not one. The first, which could be considered admirable, > > > > > is "mastery." The second, which I personally feel has > > > > > no place in spirituality, is "the dominant position in > > > > > a master-disciple or master-slave relationship." The > > > > > latter I see as completely *counterproductive* to the > > > > > realization of enlightenment. > > > > My take is that MMY or MCS felt he was THE master over others. I > think > > he really felt HE was everyone's boss, so to speak. > > > > I think he would have been quite content with "my way or the > highway" > > as his modus operandi. A true spiritual master shows you how to be > > your own master. I don't see MMY/MCS EVER dabbling in this sort of > > counterproductive thinking! > > > > G > > > "A true spiritual master shows you how to be your own master". > > With all the craziness in the TMO over the past 20 years, I have > concluded that the purpose of all the madness is just that: MMY > wants us to be our own masters because to follow the silliness > that's coming out of the TMO is completely irrational. So the only > conclusion reasonable people must come up with is: ditch it all and > follow your own heart. I think that that is the inadvertent result: people are doing their own thing, which is not exactly the same as having the guidance of a true spiritual teacher. My own feeling is that MMY/MCS had a great idea for making himself "an important person" (as one sometimes heard the Indian people speak). People were interested, but, ultimately, MMY/MCS felt he had failed. Then the Beatles made him famous (I imagine he dearly wished it had been the other way around; it probably didn't do his ego any good at all). So, he bounced back, with a vengence, making hoards of teachers and then selling these teachers a real bill of goods. Then he opened up the market. Very clever, but when I see "spirituality" for sale very, very red flags go a'flappin'. He probably felt he was, now, "an important person", although in Western eyes, he was, like the fab four said: the fool on the hill. In the sense of being poly-spiritual, he taught something of interest. But being his devoted lap dog, as some seem to be, just isn't my thing; I wonder about the mentality for which it is, actually. Mono-spirituality sometimes has the tendency to produce our most horrible nightmares. I cannot remember him saying this, but I am told that he did: if your guru isn't giving you what you want, get a different guru. G Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 'Bevan and John Confronting Maharishi?'
on 8/25/05 11:57 AM, shempmcgurk at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > "A true spiritual master shows you how to be your own master". > > With all the craziness in the TMO over the past 20 years, I have > concluded that the purpose of all the madness is just that: MMY > wants us to be our own masters because to follow the silliness > that's coming out of the TMO is completely irrational. So the only > conclusion reasonable people must come up with is: ditch it all and > follow your own heart. Is this a conscious strategy on his part or has "nature" made him crazy to have this effect, yet he thinks he's sane? Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: 'Bevan and John Confronting Maharishi?'
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, gerbal88 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "jim_flanegin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > wrote: > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > wrote: > > > > > I don't see a problem with a Master being a Master. > > > > > > > > I understand this statement in the context of the rest > > > > of your post, Jim, but have to disagree with it anyway. > > > > I think part of the whole *problem* you discuss below > > > > is inherent in the term "Master" itself. In the minds > > > > of *most* people who hear it, it implies *two* things, > > > > not one. The first, which could be considered admirable, > > > > is "mastery." The second, which I personally feel has > > > > no place in spirituality, is "the dominant position in > > > > a master-disciple or master-slave relationship." The > > > > latter I see as completely *counterproductive* to the > > > > realization of enlightenment. > > My take is that MMY or MCS felt he was THE master over others. I think > he really felt HE was everyone's boss, so to speak. > > I think he would have been quite content with "my way or the highway" > as his modus operandi. A true spiritual master shows you how to be > your own master. I don't see MMY/MCS EVER dabbling in this sort of > counterproductive thinking! > > G "A true spiritual master shows you how to be your own master". With all the craziness in the TMO over the past 20 years, I have concluded that the purpose of all the madness is just that: MMY wants us to be our own masters because to follow the silliness that's coming out of the TMO is completely irrational. So the only conclusion reasonable people must come up with is: ditch it all and follow your own heart. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: 'Bevan and John Confronting Maharishi?'
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "jim_flanegin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > wrote: > > > > I don't see a problem with a Master being a Master. > > > > > > I understand this statement in the context of the rest > > > of your post, Jim, but have to disagree with it anyway. > > > I think part of the whole *problem* you discuss below > > > is inherent in the term "Master" itself. In the minds > > > of *most* people who hear it, it implies *two* things, > > > not one. The first, which could be considered admirable, > > > is "mastery." The second, which I personally feel has > > > no place in spirituality, is "the dominant position in > > > a master-disciple or master-slave relationship." The > > > latter I see as completely *counterproductive* to the > > > realization of enlightenment. My take is that MMY or MCS felt he was THE master over others. I think he really felt HE was everyone's boss, so to speak. I think he would have been quite content with "my way or the highway" as his modus operandi. A true spiritual master shows you how to be your own master. I don't see MMY/MCS EVER dabbling in this sort of counterproductive thinking! G Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: 'Bevan and John Confronting Maharishi?'
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "jim_flanegin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > > I don't see a problem with a Master being a Master. > > > > I understand this statement in the context of the rest > > of your post, Jim, but have to disagree with it anyway. > > I think part of the whole *problem* you discuss below > > is inherent in the term "Master" itself. In the minds > > of *most* people who hear it, it implies *two* things, > > not one. The first, which could be considered admirable, > > is "mastery." The second, which I personally feel has > > no place in spirituality, is "the dominant position in > > a master-disciple or master-slave relationship." The > > latter I see as completely *counterproductive* to the > > realization of enlightenment. > > Yeah, this is where I probably should have said I meant a > Master of Reality, not a master of people. I emphatically > mean the former. The other wasn't considered at all. I use > the term 'Master' in every day conversation to connote someone > who has mastered what they do; cooking, dancing, singing, etc. > In this case, knowing Reality. I understood that. I just wanted to make the point that many if not most have in the back of their minds the *two* connotations of "Master," and tend to get them confused. Which basically creates and perpetuates the very issue you were talking about. > > > Nor is there a > > > problem with a Master not wanting to be challenged. > > > > I see a problem in that when such a "Master" is clearly > > *unwilling* or *resistant* to being challenged, it tends > > (IMO) to indicate attachment or fear, which doesn't in my > > mind imply that he has really developed mastery. > > Could just be what is needed in the moment. If the Master has no > stories, no preconcieved notions of his existence, and no stored > agendas to complete, then we can't really say what the indications > or implication of a particular thought or action of his are, > except > from our point of view; how it affects us, or would affect us, or > how someone else thought it affected them, which we believed. I can see your point, and on some levels agree with it. It's just that I have had experience with some teachers who were better at "busting" the tendencies in students to react/overreact/misinterpret than is Maharishi. Then again, their students reacted/over- reacted/misinterpreted *anyway*, just in different ways, so your point is valid and noted. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: 'Bevan and John Confronting Maharishi?'
Thanks for your reply. This is going to get messy now...my replies to yours, below. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > This is a really good post. I wanted to save replying > to it for a time when I could do it justice... > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "jim_flanegin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Cliff" > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > wrote: > > > > > And I remind you that the "unfathomable master" point of > > > > > view is also just a belief. > > > > > > Bingo. Taught by "masters" who didn't like > > > what they said challenged. > > > > I don't see a problem with a Master being a Master. > > I understand this statement in the context of the rest > of your post, Jim, but have to disagree with it anyway. > I think part of the whole *problem* you discuss below > is inherent in the term "Master" itself. In the minds > of *most* people who hear it, it implies *two* things, > not one. The first, which could be considered admirable, > is "mastery." The second, which I personally feel has > no place in spirituality, is "the dominant position in > a master-disciple or master-slave relationship." The > latter I see as completely *counterproductive* to the > realization of enlightenment. Yeah, this is where I probably should have said I meant a Master of Reality, not a master of people. I emphatically mean the former. The other wasn't considered at all. I use the term 'Master' in every day conversation to connote someone who has mastered what they do; cooking, dancing, singing, etc. In this case, knowing Reality. > > > Nor is there a > > problem with a Master not wanting to be challenged. > > I see a problem in that when such a "Master" is clearly > *unwilling* or *resistant* to being challenged, it tends > (IMO) to indicate attachment or fear, which doesn't in my > mind imply that he has really developed mastery. Could just be what is needed in the moment. If the Master has no stories, no preconcieved notions of his existence, and no stored agendas to complete, then we can't really say what the indications or implication of a particular thought or action of his are, except from our point of view; how it affects us, or would affect us, or how someone else thought it affected them, which we believed. > > > The issue is that whn many of us practice what the Master > > says to, we begin to grow, to gain that which has been lost, > > *and therefore conclude that we must do whatever the Master > > wants us to do*, in order to gain enlightenment. > > Bingo. The whole problem, in a nutshell. > > To take it to its furthest extreme, it's like someone > hearing Adolph Hitler say, "Brushing your teeth is good > for you and prevents tooth decay. And remember to get > plenty of rest." The person puts these teachings into > practice and finds that -- lo and behold! -- they are > *true*, and produce *exactly* the effects that Master > Hitler said they would. So the acolyte, impressed by > this obvious cause-and-effect relationship and the > equally obvious truth of the teaching, goes back to see > Master Hitler, and he says, "Ok...now go kill Jews." > > Does it make sense to follow the second teaching just > because the first one worked out as described? > > > The delusion occurs in the mind of the follower, not the > > Master. > > Agreed. > > > The Master just keeps on being the Master, commenting on > > this, commenting on that. Any of us are free to ignore him, > > or look elsewhere. > > > > Instead we scrutinize every word and action of the Master, > > looking for ways it doesn't make sense, or doesn't work, > > in our world view. > > I'm not sure this sentence follows from what was said before > and after it, but whatever. I agree with what was said > before and after. :-) > > > Because we have assumed this logical fallacy that, 1) because > > we have derived benefit from following the Master, and > > 2) because the word has gotten around that he is enlightened... > > "The word" often coming from those followers who assume > it, not even from the "Master" himself. > > > ...we then conclude that 3) we must continue to do whatever > > he wants, in order to gain our own enlightenment. > > *Even* when the "Master" in question gives talks about > the folly of the "cart before the horse" phenomenon, > and teaches that following another's dharma is a great > way to *never* realize enlightenment. > > > And yet, 4) this is plainly rediculous. Every Master says the > > same thing: that the Kingdom of Heaven is within you, that the > > Self is uncovered by the Self. > > > > Why do we not understand that? Why is there instead this > > insistence upon reliance on the Master for our enlightenment? > > Human nature. The desire for "Daddy," who will make > everything work out for us. T
[FairfieldLife] Re: 'Bevan and John Confronting Maharishi?'
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Cliff" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > And I remind you that the "unfathomable master" point of > > view is also just a belief. Bingo. Taught by "masters" who didn't like what they said challenged. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: 'Bevan and John Confronting Maharishi?'
If M is "really tired of all the nonsense" I wish he would stop contributing to it. I think events and press releases show quite the opposite, in fact - M clearly contributes to the nonsense and even appears to delight in doing so. I used to think that it was the "unfathomability of the fully enlightened soul doing whatever is needed for the further evolution of his devotees", as a number of participants here clearly still believe. At this point, I think he's had too much power for WAY too long and is a little unhinged by it all, so he does goofy things and makes goofy pronouncements. But that's just my belief. And I remind you that the "unfathomable master" point of view is also just a belief. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Gimbel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I didn't mean this in a derogatory way at all; >After thinking this matter over... > > I just think Maharishi wants things a certain way and that is the > end of it. > > Even though he is enlightened, and a profound teacher, he still has > his personality, and that is that. > > I believe anyone in Bevan's or John's position right now, would be > the same, in Maharishi's presence, because at this stage, he really > doesn't need to prove anything to anybody. > > If he truly, in his heart, is a monk and a recluse, by this time in > his life, he has earned the right to hold any vision of the world he > wishes and so desires. > > He really dosen't need to answer to anyone, and he is probably > getting tired of all of the nonense. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: 'Bevan and John Confronting Maharishi?'
I didn't mean this in a derogatory way at all; After thinking this matter over... I just think Maharishi wants things a certain way and that is the end of it. Even though he is enlightened, and a profound teacher, he still has his personality, and that is that. I believe anyone in Bevan's or John's position right now, would be the same, in Maharishi's presence, because at this stage, he really doesn't need to prove anything to anybody. If he truly, in his heart, is a monk and a recluse, by this time in his life, he has earned the right to hold any vision of the world he wishes and so desires. He really dosen't need to answer to anyone, and he is probably getting tired of all of the nonense. > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Gimbel" > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > Why do you suppose, Maharishi chose Bevan and John to represent > him? > > > > > > Do ya thunk, that it might just be because; > > > > > > They would never challenge him, under any circumstances? > > > > Bevan, certainly. Hagelin, I'm not so sure. > > > > As far as I'm aware, Bevan has never been anything > > but MMY's acolyte, never had any major projects of > > his own (I guess he was president of MUM for some > > years, but that's about it). > > Bevan can be very strong-willed in private with MMY from what I've > gathered over the years. HOWEVER, these past few years, MMY has been > unyielding on quite a few things and Bevan certainly follows what MMY > says without question, once the "are you sures?" have been dispensed > with. > > > > > Haglin has had quite a bit of independence and many > > significant projects "out in the world" in which he's > > had to make his own decisions and run his own show; > > plus which, he had a life prior to TM and still has > > considerable expertise in a non-TM field. > > > > Whether that means Hagelin is capable of challenging > > MMY, I have no idea, but I wouldn't dismiss the > > possibility out of hand. > > > > (Didn't he keep going with the Natural Law Party for > > awhile after MMY had ordered its abandonment?) > > > > Then again, if he's nothing more than MMY's > > creature, it means his comment about the > > possibility of change after MMY's death must have > > come *from MMY*. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: 'Bevan and John Confronting Maharishi?'
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "markmeredith2002" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "shempmcgurk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Gimbel" > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > Why do you suppose, Maharishi chose Bevan and John to represent him? > > > > > > Do ya thunk, that it might just be because; > > > > > > They would never challenge him, under any circumstances? > > > > No, I don't. > > > > I think he chose them for their intelligence and, at last as far as > > Bevan is concerned, for their leadership qualities. > > > Bevan and John have free will. Maybe the lobsters and cavier have, > > over the years, made them weak. > > We'll really see what free will they have left when MMY goes and the > big B, Hagelin and others shake off their purple kool-aid hangover and > begin jockeying for control of the vast tmo financial assets. Beven is the custodian of the 180 million dollar Maharishi Fund. What more do you think he wants? > > Maybe the nephews have full control of the offshore accounts and > that's that, but I still think we'll see some interesting power plays > in the US. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: 'Bevan and John Confronting Maharishi?'
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Gimbel" > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Why do you suppose, Maharishi chose Bevan and John to represent him? > > > > Do ya thunk, that it might just be because; > > > > They would never challenge him, under any circumstances? > > Bevan, certainly. Hagelin, I'm not so sure. > > As far as I'm aware, Bevan has never been anything > but MMY's acolyte, never had any major projects of > his own (I guess he was president of MUM for some > years, but that's about it). Bevan can be very strong-willed in private with MMY from what I've gathered over the years. HOWEVER, these past few years, MMY has been unyielding on quite a few things and Bevan certainly follows what MMY says without question, once the "are you sures?" have been dispensed with. > > Haglin has had quite a bit of independence and many > significant projects "out in the world" in which he's > had to make his own decisions and run his own show; > plus which, he had a life prior to TM and still has > considerable expertise in a non-TM field. > > Whether that means Hagelin is capable of challenging > MMY, I have no idea, but I wouldn't dismiss the > possibility out of hand. > > (Didn't he keep going with the Natural Law Party for > awhile after MMY had ordered its abandonment?) > > Then again, if he's nothing more than MMY's > creature, it means his comment about the > possibility of change after MMY's death must have > come *from MMY*. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: 'Bevan and John Confronting Maharishi?'
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Gimbel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Why do you suppose, Maharishi chose Bevan and John to represent him? > > Do ya thunk, that it might just be because; > > They would never challenge him, under any circumstances? Or if they do, they keep it out of the public eye? Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 'Bevan and John Confronting Maharishi?'
--- markmeredith2002 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "shempmcgurk" > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Robert > Gimbel" > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > Why do you suppose, Maharishi chose Bevan and > John to represent him? > > > > > > Do ya thunk, that it might just be because; > > > > > > They would never challenge him, under any > circumstances? > > > > No, I don't. > > > > I think he chose them for their intelligence and, > at last as far as > > Bevan is concerned, for their leadership > qualities. > > > Bevan and John have free will. Maybe the lobsters > and cavier have, > > over the years, made them weak. > > We'll really see what free will they have left when > MMY goes and the > big B, Hagelin and others shake off their purple > kool-aid hangover and > begin jockeying for control of the vast tmo > financial assets. > > Maybe the nephews have full control of the offshore > accounts and > that's that, but I still think we'll see some > interesting power plays > in the US. No $ = No power. We ain't gonna follow a jokester in a clown outfit with a plastic, gold crown on his head and eyeliner who is "royally indifferent.". > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > ~--> > Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make > Yahoo! your home page > http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM > ~-> > > > To subscribe, send a message to: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Or go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ > and click 'Join This Group!' > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: 'Bevan and John Confronting Maharishi?'
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "markmeredith2002" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "shempmcgurk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Gimbel" > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > Why do you suppose, Maharishi chose Bevan and John to represent him? > > > > > > Do ya thunk, that it might just be because; > > > > > > They would never challenge him, under any circumstances? > > > > No, I don't. > > > > I think he chose them for their intelligence and, at last as far as > > Bevan is concerned, for their leadership qualities. > > > Bevan and John have free will. Maybe the lobsters and cavier have, > > over the years, made them weak. > > We'll really see what free will they have left when MMY goes and the > big B, Hagelin and others shake off their purple kool-aid hangover and > begin jockeying for control of the vast tmo financial assets. > > Maybe the nephews have full control of the offshore accounts and > that's that, but I still think we'll see some interesting power plays > in the US. It wouldn't surprise me if the nephews had full control of all the assets. Look at the Board of Directors of all the orgs. I think that assets will be stripped from the US and Europe. It's happening now. What remains is only there to enhance the pipeline to India. JohnY Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: 'Bevan and John Confronting Maharishi?'
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "shempmcgurk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Gimbel" > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Why do you suppose, Maharishi chose Bevan and John to represent him? > > > > Do ya thunk, that it might just be because; > > > > They would never challenge him, under any circumstances? > > No, I don't. > > I think he chose them for their intelligence and, at last as far as > Bevan is concerned, for their leadership qualities. > Bevan and John have free will. Maybe the lobsters and cavier have, > over the years, made them weak. We'll really see what free will they have left when MMY goes and the big B, Hagelin and others shake off their purple kool-aid hangover and begin jockeying for control of the vast tmo financial assets. Maybe the nephews have full control of the offshore accounts and that's that, but I still think we'll see some interesting power plays in the US. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: 'Bevan and John Confronting Maharishi?'
When I met Bevan for the first time in 1970 he wanted me to understand that as far as he was concerned he believed his connection with MMY to be pre-ordained. He confidently stated plans for setting up a educational establishment of which he would be involved. It seemed to me that he chose to help the Maharishi. It rather surprised me at the time that one so young had so quickly formed such an intimate bond with the Maharishi. I wonder, in view of the comment MMY allegedly once made about Sattyanand, that the Maharishi sees his aides more as his children than as staff. On a not totally dissimilar tack, Paul McCartney once suggested that he does not choose his friends, they choose him. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Gimbel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Why do you suppose, Maharishi chose Bevan and John to represent him? > > Do ya thunk, that it might just be because; > > They would never challenge him, under any circumstances? Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: 'Bevan and John Confronting Maharishi?'
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Gimbel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Why do you suppose, Maharishi chose Bevan and John to represent him? > > Do ya thunk, that it might just be because; > > They would never challenge him, under any circumstances? Bevan, certainly. Hagelin, I'm not so sure. As far as I'm aware, Bevan has never been anything but MMY's acolyte, never had any major projects of his own (I guess he was president of MUM for some years, but that's about it). Haglin has had quite a bit of independence and many significant projects "out in the world" in which he's had to make his own decisions and run his own show; plus which, he had a life prior to TM and still has considerable expertise in a non-TM field. Whether that means Hagelin is capable of challenging MMY, I have no idea, but I wouldn't dismiss the possibility out of hand. (Didn't he keep going with the Natural Law Party for awhile after MMY had ordered its abandonment?) Then again, if he's nothing more than MMY's creature, it means his comment about the possibility of change after MMY's death must have come *from MMY*. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: 'Bevan and John Confronting Maharishi?'
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Gimbel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Why do you suppose, Maharishi chose Bevan and John to represent him? > > Do ya thunk, that it might just be because; > > They would never challenge him, under any circumstances? No, I don't. I think he chose them for their intelligence and, at last as far as Bevan is concerned, for their leadership qualities. But being a good follower is not being a "yes man" but "confronting" the master or leader with alternative opinions that conflict with the master's words or the courses of action he has laid out. Bevan and John have free will. Maybe the lobsters and cavier have, over the years, made them weak. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
