Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Girish Verma back in the fold
On Jul 23, 2008, at 3:31 PM, jyouells2000 wrote: > I went to Honesdale, with an audiotape of Guru Dev (before Paul > translations) to see > about the possibility of translation. Walked into the bookstore and > asked if Swami Rama > was there. As if on cue he walked in, in a maroon bathrobe (in the > steam > room?) and > shook my hand. > (This kicked up some kundalini in both my friend and I lots of > heat > and a red forehead). > I told him that I was a teacher of TM and asked about the tape... we > walked down the hall > talking and he suggested leaving the tape with him. I said 'yes' but > thought 'no' and he suggested another time That was the end of > the > conversation . A few years later all the > stuff about the Swami and the wives of his closest students came > out. I > was impressed by his perceptiveness and the shaktipat. He spoke well > of > TM, as well. Great story. He was well known to read minds and his power of shaktipat was renowned. I met him in a similar way, but after writing a 8-page letter to him on SBS and TM. I was amazed a couple of months later when he responded.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Girish Verma back in the fold
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > On Jul 23, 2008, at 11:26 AM, curtisdeltablues wrote: > > > > >>> > >>> For those who find belief in gods and goddesses untenable, there's > > no > >>> real need to cling to such stories. In terms of modern psychology > > and > >>> neuroscience it would be easier to say that certain sounds have > >>> certain effects on the brain, which have the potential, over time, > > to > >>> awaken certain propensities in the brain and then for those changes > >>> to be integrated into the human personality. > > > > That may be true. I find it hard to believe that earlier cultures > > were able to figure this out rather than just going with their > > religious meanings in choosing sounds. It seems like a difficult > > thing to test. > > It is completely knowable in those traditions, albeit not through > conventional, scientific and materialistic means. But more simply, > different devatas had different personalities and those are the > qualities that naturally develop with mantra use. > > > > > That's why I like Swami > >>> Rama's approach: it was practical and honest, without a need for > >>> magical thinking. > > > > I checked out his place in Honesdale Pa but never met him. I was very > > afraid of meeting guys like him when I was in TM. I thought they > > would put the "wammy" on me! I also thought that I was a special and > > desirable human that other masters would want to steal from Maharishi! > > Teachers had told me that other masters valued us and would be after > > us. More "prison of specialness." > > Wow, if you're not making that up, that pretty scary Curtis! I've > found quite the opposite to be true: TMers are viewed as naive at best. > > My approach was quite different: it was clear that the TMO wasn't > being up front, forthcoming and (frankly), honest. So I went where I > could find all the answers and then some. Sw. Rama's center was an > important one--esp. since he was a student of Guru Dev's and he was > able to actually replicate samadhi in his students. > > It was utterly refreshing to get the whole story and not some cosmic > rug salesman's hypnotic spiel. That's not to say that Sw. Rama didn't > have his dark side, he had a real creepazoid side as well. > I went to Honesdale, with an audiotape of Guru Dev (before Paul translations) to see about the possibility of translation. Walked into the bookstore and asked if Swami Rama was there. As if on cue he walked in, in a maroon bathrobe (in the steam room?) and shook my hand. (This kicked up some kundalini in both my friend and I lots of heat and a red forehead). I told him that I was a teacher of TM and asked about the tape... we walked down the hall talking and he suggested leaving the tape with him. I said 'yes' but thought 'no' and he suggested another time That was the end of the conversation . A few years later all the stuff about the Swami and the wives of his closest students came out. I was impressed by his perceptiveness and the shaktipat. He spoke well of TM, as well. JohnY
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Girish Verma back in the fold
On Jul 23, 2008, at 12:53 PM, curtisdeltablues wrote: That may be true. I find it hard to believe that earlier cultures were able to figure this out rather than just going with their religious meanings in choosing sounds. It seems like a difficult thing to test. It is completely knowable in those traditions, albeit not through conventional, scientific and materialistic means. But more simply, different devatas had different personalities and those are the qualities that naturally develop with mantra use. Outside religious faith, I really can't understand how someone could be confident of such knowledge. I think what makes samadhic knowledge so compelling is it's paradoxical, non-linear nature: before jnana or transcendental knowledge dawns, you have no clue as to what this even means, but one instance and as you come out of the state where it is revealed, you simply possess, literally, volumes of knowledge. Yet there was no conventional learning process involved. How could this be? I'm not talking about channelled bullshit here. I hate to say it, but until it's experienced, there's no way to convey how important such a thing is. I think probably the best example I can give that is publicly known is that of Srinivasa Ramanujan. Much of his incredible mathematical knowledge came from samadhic states. To this very day it boggles mathematicians. Not conventional by any means, but there it is. Another example would be the abilities of Yogi Karveji, who can cognize ones exact birth time by merely placing his attention on the person. (Incidentally, Ramanujan's combinatorics problem was recently solved Link) I get the compelling nature of subjective experiences, just not why a modern person wouldn't take them with a grain of salt. I think an experienced yogi would take trance states with a very skeptical grain of salt, because s/he understan s the difference between mere trance states and the collapse of the observer-observed dichotomy. I think it is possible to experience gods that have qualities of the Hindu Gods, I just don't think that means they actually exist outside our mind's conception. Exactly my point, you don't even have to accept any independently existing realty such as a god, but instead they could be appreciated as archetypes of a certain type, which have corresponding brain states. You take is especially interesting because I know you are aware of the nature of hypnotic states and what an unreliable source of knowledge they provide. Yes, false memory syndrome is well known, but I also understand that there are other states beyond mere trance states. I would not assume, for example, even if I spent many years practicing a trance-style technique, that that's all there is to meditative states. More offlist later. Gotta run.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Girish Verma back in the fold
Vaj wrote: > I prefer honesty (Swami Rama approach) > rather than being lied to (the > "meaningless sound" canard). > Did the Marshy say that the TM mantras were "meaningless sound"? I think not. The TM mantras have no semantic meaning, but they are not meaningless - everything has meaning, but not all sounds have a semantic meaning.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Girish Verma back in the fold
> > That may be true. I find it hard to believe that earlier cultures > > were able to figure this out rather than just going with their > > religious meanings in choosing sounds. It seems like a difficult > > thing to test. > > It is completely knowable in those traditions, albeit not through > conventional, scientific and materialistic means. But more simply, > different devatas had different personalities and those are the > qualities that naturally develop with mantra use. Outside religious faith, I really can't understand how someone could be confident of such knowledge. I get the compelling nature of subjective experiences, just not why a modern person wouldn't take them with a grain of salt. I think it is possible to experience gods that have qualities of the Hindu Gods, I just don't think that means they actually exist outside our mind's conception. You take is especially interesting because I know you are aware of the nature of hypnotic states and what an unreliable source of knowledge they provide. > > > > > That's why I like Swami > >>> Rama's approach: it was practical and honest, without a need for > >>> magical thinking. > > > > I checked out his place in Honesdale Pa but never met him. I was very > > afraid of meeting guys like him when I was in TM. I thought they > > would put the "wammy" on me! I also thought that I was a special and > > desirable human that other masters would want to steal from Maharishi! > > Teachers had told me that other masters valued us and would be after > > us. More "prison of specialness." > > Wow, if you're not making that up, that pretty scary Curtis! I didn't make up that a teacher told me that but the teacher could have made it up. He claimed that Maharishi warned him about other teachers trying to get his students. I've > found quite the opposite to be true: TMers are viewed as naive at best. I think many Indian Gurus would happily grab a naive Westerner with cash who as already shown a propensity for gullibility. Swami Rama was a marketer of his brand not much different from Maharishi. > > My approach was quite different: it was clear that the TMO wasn't > being up front, forthcoming and (frankly), honest. So I went where I > could find all the answers and then some. Sw. Rama's center was an > important one--esp. since he was a student of Guru Dev's and he was > able to actually replicate samadhi in his students. I dug his book and would have welcomed a chance to hear him tell Guru Dev stories. These days I think he and Yogananda were spinners of yarns in their books. I am not inclined to take their claims at face value these days. > > It was utterly refreshing to get the whole story and not some cosmic > rug salesman's hypnotic spiel. That's not to say that Sw. Rama didn't > have his dark side, he had a real creepazoid side as well. I heard something about that too. These guys who present themselves as having special knowledge about life seem cut from the same big ego cloth to me. You have to play the game that they are somehow intrinsically different from you inside or that this difference really matters at all. Any stories you would care to repeat about your time with him would be interesting, unless you have covered this ground already and are sick of it. Please feel free to go offline. Inquiring minds want to know! >
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Girish Verma back in the fold
On Jul 23, 2008, at 11:26 AM, curtisdeltablues wrote: For those who find belief in gods and goddesses untenable, there's no real need to cling to such stories. In terms of modern psychology and neuroscience it would be easier to say that certain sounds have certain effects on the brain, which have the potential, over time, to awaken certain propensities in the brain and then for those changes to be integrated into the human personality. That may be true. I find it hard to believe that earlier cultures were able to figure this out rather than just going with their religious meanings in choosing sounds. It seems like a difficult thing to test. It is completely knowable in those traditions, albeit not through conventional, scientific and materialistic means. But more simply, different devatas had different personalities and those are the qualities that naturally develop with mantra use. That's why I like Swami Rama's approach: it was practical and honest, without a need for magical thinking. I checked out his place in Honesdale Pa but never met him. I was very afraid of meeting guys like him when I was in TM. I thought they would put the "wammy" on me! I also thought that I was a special and desirable human that other masters would want to steal from Maharishi! Teachers had told me that other masters valued us and would be after us. More "prison of specialness." Wow, if you're not making that up, that pretty scary Curtis! I've found quite the opposite to be true: TMers are viewed as naive at best. My approach was quite different: it was clear that the TMO wasn't being up front, forthcoming and (frankly), honest. So I went where I could find all the answers and then some. Sw. Rama's center was an important one--esp. since he was a student of Guru Dev's and he was able to actually replicate samadhi in his students. It was utterly refreshing to get the whole story and not some cosmic rug salesman's hypnotic spiel. That's not to say that Sw. Rama didn't have his dark side, he had a real creepazoid side as well.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Girish Verma back in the fold
> > > > For those who find belief in gods and goddesses untenable, there's no > > real need to cling to such stories. In terms of modern psychology and > > neuroscience it would be easier to say that certain sounds have > > certain effects on the brain, which have the potential, over time, to > > awaken certain propensities in the brain and then for those changes > > to be integrated into the human personality. That may be true. I find it hard to believe that earlier cultures were able to figure this out rather than just going with their religious meanings in choosing sounds. It seems like a difficult thing to test. That's why I like Swami > > Rama's approach: it was practical and honest, without a need for > > magical thinking. I checked out his place in Honesdale Pa but never met him. I was very afraid of meeting guys like him when I was in TM. I thought they would put the "wammy" on me! I also thought that I was a special and desirable human that other masters would want to steal from Maharishi! Teachers had told me that other masters valued us and would be after us. More "prison of specialness." > > And rife with the potential for suggestion and placebo effects. I didn't notice any difference in my meditation once I knew the meaning of my mantra. I'm not sure this is necessarily true. Otherwise you are saying that everyone who learns in India from a Hindu background would be "rife" with whatever. > > MMY's approach is more Zen-like. Which is why some Zen monks in Japan> are apparently dabbling in TM these days. I don't know what aspect you are comparing here, they seem pretty different to me. > > > Lawson >
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Girish Verma back in the fold
On Jul 23, 2008, at 9:49 AM, sparaig wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: On Jul 22, 2008, at 4:51 PM, curtisdeltablues wrote: So you deny all connection to this Saraswati bija idea then? ;-) Is Saraswati married to Santa Clause? No, just certain TMers. For those who find belief in gods and goddesses untenable, there's no real need to cling to such stories. In terms of modern psychology and neuroscience it would be easier to say that certain sounds have certain effects on the brain, which have the potential, over time, to awaken certain propensities in the brain and then for those changes to be integrated into the human personality. That's why I like Swami Rama's approach: it was practical and honest, without a need for magical thinking. And rife with the potential for suggestion and placebo effects. I prefer honesty (Swami Rama approach) rather than being lied to (the "meaningless sound" canard). MMY's approach is more Zen-like. Which is why some Zen monks in Japan are apparently dabbling in TM these days. I see no similarity to zen approaches and MMY's approach. But you can fool some of the people, some of the time.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Girish Verma back in the fold
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > On Jul 22, 2008, at 4:51 PM, curtisdeltablues wrote: > > > > >> So you deny all connection to this Saraswati bija idea then? ;-) > > > > Is Saraswati married to Santa Clause? > > > No, just certain TMers. > > For those who find belief in gods and goddesses untenable, there's no > real need to cling to such stories. In terms of modern psychology and > neuroscience it would be easier to say that certain sounds have > certain effects on the brain, which have the potential, over time, to > awaken certain propensities in the brain and then for those changes > to be integrated into the human personality. That's why I like Swami > Rama's approach: it was practical and honest, without a need for > magical thinking. > And rife with the potential for suggestion and placebo effects. MMY's approach is more Zen-like. Which is why some Zen monks in Japan are apparently dabbling in TM these days. Lawson
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Girish Verma back in the fold
On Jul 22, 2008, at 4:51 PM, curtisdeltablues wrote: So you deny all connection to this Saraswati bija idea then? ;-) Is Saraswati married to Santa Clause? No, just certain TMers. For those who find belief in gods and goddesses untenable, there's no real need to cling to such stories. In terms of modern psychology and neuroscience it would be easier to say that certain sounds have certain effects on the brain, which have the potential, over time, to awaken certain propensities in the brain and then for those changes to be integrated into the human personality. That's why I like Swami Rama's approach: it was practical and honest, without a need for magical thinking.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Girish Verma back in the fold
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Richard J. Williams" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > Guitar players love to get worshiped, > > > just like gurus do. > > > > Curtis wrote: > > I wouldn't know anything about that. > > My bar is set a bit lower at "no beer > > bottles thrown during the set." > > > You're probably already famous - you'll > have to deal with being worshipped as > a God - people will bow down to you. You > will probably have a cult following. > You will be up on stage like the Marshy. Kind intentions Richard, thanks. You know what it is really like for a bluesman? Sharing a feeling with an audience. It happens. It is great. Unity has nothing on this experience. Shared humanity. We realize that no one deserves to be worshiped cuz we all got the same shit.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Girish Verma back in the fold
> > Guitar players love to get worshiped, > > just like gurus do. > > Curtis wrote: > I wouldn't know anything about that. > My bar is set a bit lower at "no beer > bottles thrown during the set." > You're probably already famous - you'll have to deal with being worshipped as a God - people will bow down to you. You will probably have a cult following. You will be up on stage like the Marshy.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Girish Verma back in the fold
Now Shemp, lets not forget our sense of humor! --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "shempmcgurk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, bettyblue109 > wrote: > > > > Shemp I know this may be hard for you to believe, And I never would > > force you to believe anything you don't want to, but scientific > > research has shown you can practice the TM program and TM Guru > > Program simultaneoulsy > > > No, actually, you can't. > > You can do the TM Technique simultaneously with the TM Guru Program > but you absolutely can't do the TM Program simultaneously with the TM > Guru Program... > > Get back to me when you understand the difference between the TM > Technique and the TM Program. > > > > > > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "shempmcgurk" > > wrote: > > > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "curtisdeltablues" > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "shempmcgurk" > > > > > > Well, Betty, chances are that if they were into all this > other > > > crap, > > > > > they weren't doing the TM Program, which is by definition the > > > > > opposite of all those things (especially "devotion to MMY"). > > > > > > > > I know it is just a bit of wizzing in the wind Shemp, but I > gotta > > > say > > > > that the TM program was whatever Maharishis said it was for the > > > group > > > > you were in, and that included, but was not in any way limited > > to, > > > the > > > > basic starter course of the TM practice itself. There were > > plenty > > > of > > > > courses where acting in accordance with the desires of the > master > > > WAS > > > > your program, even when that interfered with the TM practice > > itself. > > > > (think all nighters on his latest, greatest, most wonderful, > had > > to > > > be > > > > done right now, idea) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If they were listening to a Guru, abiding by his wishes, and > > changing > > > their lifestyle, then they were NOT -- I repeat NOT -- practising > > the > > > TM Program. > > > > > > They were practising Guru TM, which is the OPPOSITE of the TM > > Program. > > > > > > Now, Guru TM may incorporate the TM Technique, but NOT the TM > > > Program. Two very different things. > > > > > > I suggest that 90% of the so-called TMers in the Movement, in > > > Fairfield and especially in Vlodrop practise Guru TM. > > > > > > No wonder they're all fucked up. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, bettyblue109 > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > I lived in Fairfield for almost 30 years and left there > about > > 4 > > > > > years > > > > > > ago...TM etc did not solve folks problems, I have good > > > friends > > > > > > that were 110% loyal to MMY's teachings, everything, I > would > > > even > > > > > > call them fundementalists ru's, Vastu, group program, > > ayerveda, > > > > > > devotion to MMY, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Well, Betty, chances are that if they were into all this > other > > > crap, > > > > > they weren't doing the TM Program, which is by definition the > > > > > opposite of all those things (especially "devotion to MMY"). > > > > > > > > > > Those people were off the program and, as such, shouldn't be > > used > > > as > > > > > examples of whether TM is effective or not. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > they talked it and walked it and they have all the > > > > > > same normal problems that anyone else has, ie; career > > > challanges, > > > > > too > > > > > > much debt, poverty, health problems, family problems, teens > > in > > > MSAE > > > > > > doing drugs and getting high and drunk to name a > few.Now, > > > FF is > > > > > > an easy place to live, it has really good vibes from all > the > > > > > > meditation going on, there is a community feeling and > support > > > > > network > > > > > > there like no place I have ever been...I was happy in > my > > > life > > > > > > there and I am happy in my life not there! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "curtisdeltablues" > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > IT'S FUCKING WESTERN MONEY AND OUR FUCKING VALUES > SHOULD > > > FOLLOW > > > > > > THAT > > > > > > > > MONEY. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm gunna give you credit for cracking a history book or > > two > > > > > (after > > > > > > > MIU because Maharishi had contempt for history studies) > > Shemp. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Did the Brits keep Indian values as they sucked their > > colony > > > > > dry? > > > > > > It > > > > > > > doesn't work that way. The West got a little payback and > > now > > > with > > > > > > > outsourcing we are getting a LOT of payback from India. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think this is the problem: > > > > > > > > > >
[FairfieldLife] Re: Girish Verma back in the fold
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, bettyblue109 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Shemp I know this may be hard for you to believe, And I never would > force you to believe anything you don't want to, but scientific > research has shown you can practice the TM program and TM Guru > Program simultaneoulsy No, actually, you can't. You can do the TM Technique simultaneously with the TM Guru Program but you absolutely can't do the TM Program simultaneously with the TM Guru Program... Get back to me when you understand the difference between the TM Technique and the TM Program. > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "shempmcgurk" > wrote: > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "curtisdeltablues" > > wrote: > > > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "shempmcgurk" > > > > Well, Betty, chances are that if they were into all this other > > crap, > > > > they weren't doing the TM Program, which is by definition the > > > > opposite of all those things (especially "devotion to MMY"). > > > > > > I know it is just a bit of wizzing in the wind Shemp, but I gotta > > say > > > that the TM program was whatever Maharishis said it was for the > > group > > > you were in, and that included, but was not in any way limited > to, > > the > > > basic starter course of the TM practice itself. There were > plenty > > of > > > courses where acting in accordance with the desires of the master > > WAS > > > your program, even when that interfered with the TM practice > itself. > > > (think all nighters on his latest, greatest, most wonderful, had > to > > be > > > done right now, idea) > > > > > > > > > > If they were listening to a Guru, abiding by his wishes, and > changing > > their lifestyle, then they were NOT -- I repeat NOT -- practising > the > > TM Program. > > > > They were practising Guru TM, which is the OPPOSITE of the TM > Program. > > > > Now, Guru TM may incorporate the TM Technique, but NOT the TM > > Program. Two very different things. > > > > I suggest that 90% of the so-called TMers in the Movement, in > > Fairfield and especially in Vlodrop practise Guru TM. > > > > No wonder they're all fucked up. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, bettyblue109 > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > I lived in Fairfield for almost 30 years and left there about > 4 > > > > years > > > > > ago...TM etc did not solve folks problems, I have good > > friends > > > > > that were 110% loyal to MMY's teachings, everything, I would > > even > > > > > call them fundementalists ru's, Vastu, group program, > ayerveda, > > > > > devotion to MMY, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Well, Betty, chances are that if they were into all this other > > crap, > > > > they weren't doing the TM Program, which is by definition the > > > > opposite of all those things (especially "devotion to MMY"). > > > > > > > > Those people were off the program and, as such, shouldn't be > used > > as > > > > examples of whether TM is effective or not. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > they talked it and walked it and they have all the > > > > > same normal problems that anyone else has, ie; career > > challanges, > > > > too > > > > > much debt, poverty, health problems, family problems, teens > in > > MSAE > > > > > doing drugs and getting high and drunk to name a few.Now, > > FF is > > > > > an easy place to live, it has really good vibes from all the > > > > > meditation going on, there is a community feeling and support > > > > network > > > > > there like no place I have ever been...I was happy in my > > life > > > > > there and I am happy in my life not there! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "curtisdeltablues" > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > IT'S FUCKING WESTERN MONEY AND OUR FUCKING VALUES SHOULD > > FOLLOW > > > > > THAT > > > > > > > MONEY. > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm gunna give you credit for cracking a history book or > two > > > > (after > > > > > > MIU because Maharishi had contempt for history studies) > Shemp. > > > > > > > > > > > > Did the Brits keep Indian values as they sucked their > colony > > > > dry? > > > > > It > > > > > > doesn't work that way. The West got a little payback and > now > > with > > > > > > outsourcing we are getting a LOT of payback from India. > > > > > > > > > > > > I think this is the problem: > > > > > > > > > > > > > have > > > > > > > THE program to solve mankind's problems (which I truly > > believe > > > > the > > > > > > TM > program can do) and then jeopardize the whole thing by > > > > > appointing > > > > > > your > blood relatives to handle the money> > > > > > > > > > > > > You are one of the main proponents of not Guru-fying > > Maharishi and > > > > > > here you load him up as the dude who has the key to "solve > > > > mankind's > > > >
[FairfieldLife] Re: Girish Verma back in the fold
> And you probably sit on a stage and take a > few bows sometimes as well. Guitarists love to > take bows - that makes them feel like a God > to their fans. No, if you bow to your fans they are the God to you. worshiped, just like gurus do.> Do tell. I wouldn't know anything about that. My bar is set a bit lower at "no beer bottles thrown during the set." --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Richard J. Williams" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Curtis wrote: > > I don't meditate to improve my music, > > I practice my ass off. > > > Practicing on your guitar is a meditation. > You've probably been meditating your ass off > for years without even realizing it. > > > If you are saying that some other practice > > improves your musical ability, I say cool. > > But from my POV determining the causality > > of such a claim just isn't possible. > > > Lots of people consider practicing on their > musical instrument a type of meditation. You > don't have to mutter mantras with your eyes > closed in order to meditate. You could just > go on muttering the words to your songs with > your eyes wide open. But probably lots of > singers close their eyes as well, especially > after have a bottle of Jack Daniels and > smoking some reefer. > > Probably dozens of people use this kind of > meditation practice. There are lots of ways > to transcend. > > > Any more than my neighbors can convince me > > that I need to join them on the rug 5 times > > a day. > > > You don't have to sit on a rug to practice. > Try sitting on a chair, a couch, or on your > porch. You probably already do this at least > five times a day. > > And you probably sit on a stage and take a > few bows sometimes as well. Guitarists love to > take bows - that makes them feel like a God > to their fans. Guitar players love to get > worshiped, just like gurus do. > > > I may be missing out on both counts. That is > > how we choose our lives and live with our > > choices I guess. > > > The only thing you seem to be missing out on > is using logic: everyone meditates. And you > bowed down to the Hindu demi-Gods for years, > so you probably don't need to do that anymore > anyway. > > Meditation is based on thinking. Anyone who > thinks is meditating. There's probably not a > single person on the entire planet who doesn't > take a pause once or twice a day to take stock > of their mental contents. And, everyone is > already transcending, all the time, even > without a technique. There's no such thing as > 'TM' - there's only one Transcendental. >
[FairfieldLife] Re: Girish Verma back in the fold
> So you deny all connection to this Saraswati bija idea then? ;-) Is Saraswati married to Santa Clause? --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > On Jul 22, 2008, at 3:24 PM, curtisdeltablues wrote: > > > > > > > But I think was all make our choices based on our best guess > > concerning probability right? I mean, you may not feel compelled to > > test whether bowing in the direction of Mecca 5 times a day will make > > everything in your life magically better, but there are a whole bunch > > of people who try to make this case. > > > > I have sort of discarded the whole model of the relationship of human > > consciousness and the world that the yogis believe. I don't meditate > > to improve my music, I practice my ass off. If you are saying that > > some other practice improves your musical ability, I say cool. But > > from my POV determining the causality of such a claim just isn't > > possible. Any more than my neighbors can convince me that I need to > > join them on the rug 5 times a day. > > > > I may be missing out on both counts. That is how we choose our lives > > and live with our choices I guess. > > > So you deny all connection to this Saraswati bija idea then? ;-) >
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Girish Verma back in the fold
On Jul 22, 2008, at 3:24 PM, curtisdeltablues wrote: > > > But I think was all make our choices based on our best guess > concerning probability right? I mean, you may not feel compelled to > test whether bowing in the direction of Mecca 5 times a day will make > everything in your life magically better, but there are a whole bunch > of people who try to make this case. > > I have sort of discarded the whole model of the relationship of human > consciousness and the world that the yogis believe. I don't meditate > to improve my music, I practice my ass off. If you are saying that > some other practice improves your musical ability, I say cool. But > from my POV determining the causality of such a claim just isn't > possible. Any more than my neighbors can convince me that I need to > join them on the rug 5 times a day. > > I may be missing out on both counts. That is how we choose our lives > and live with our choices I guess. So you deny all connection to this Saraswati bija idea then? ;-)
[FairfieldLife] Re: Girish Verma back in the fold
---Sure, one can be "devoted" to MMY as a form of mood-making; but on a more technical level; (following the examples of other Traditions); Guru-bhakti incorporates a form of meditation in which there's a "hard" concentration of the form of the Guru at the 3-rd eye. The mind isn't allowed to wander. This form of meditation is incompatible with TM. But one can do both, at different times. The purpose of meditating on the form of the Guru (in those other traditions, such as Sant Mat), is to ultimate see the radiant form of the Master converging on the Bindu; and then dissasociate from the physical body, without experiencing bodily death. In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, bettyblue109 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Shemp I know this may be hard for you to believe, And I never would > force you to believe anything you don't want to, but scientific > research has shown you can practice the TM program and TM Guru > Program simultaneoulsy > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "shempmcgurk" > wrote: > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "curtisdeltablues" > > wrote: > > > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "shempmcgurk" > > > > Well, Betty, chances are that if they were into all this other > > crap, > > > > they weren't doing the TM Program, which is by definition the > > > > opposite of all those things (especially "devotion to MMY"). > > > > > > I know it is just a bit of wizzing in the wind Shemp, but I gotta > > say > > > that the TM program was whatever Maharishis said it was for the > > group > > > you were in, and that included, but was not in any way limited > to, > > the > > > basic starter course of the TM practice itself. There were > plenty > > of > > > courses where acting in accordance with the desires of the master > > WAS > > > your program, even when that interfered with the TM practice > itself. > > > (think all nighters on his latest, greatest, most wonderful, had > to > > be > > > done right now, idea) > > > > > > > > > > If they were listening to a Guru, abiding by his wishes, and > changing > > their lifestyle, then they were NOT -- I repeat NOT -- practising > the > > TM Program. > > > > They were practising Guru TM, which is the OPPOSITE of the TM > Program. > > > > Now, Guru TM may incorporate the TM Technique, but NOT the TM > > Program. Two very different things. > > > > I suggest that 90% of the so-called TMers in the Movement, in > > Fairfield and especially in Vlodrop practise Guru TM. > > > > No wonder they're all fucked up. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, bettyblue109 > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > I lived in Fairfield for almost 30 years and left there about > 4 > > > > years > > > > > ago...TM etc did not solve folks problems, I have good > > friends > > > > > that were 110% loyal to MMY's teachings, everything, I would > > even > > > > > call them fundementalists ru's, Vastu, group program, > ayerveda, > > > > > devotion to MMY, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Well, Betty, chances are that if they were into all this other > > crap, > > > > they weren't doing the TM Program, which is by definition the > > > > opposite of all those things (especially "devotion to MMY"). > > > > > > > > Those people were off the program and, as such, shouldn't be > used > > as > > > > examples of whether TM is effective or not. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > they talked it and walked it and they have all the > > > > > same normal problems that anyone else has, ie; career > > challanges, > > > > too > > > > > much debt, poverty, health problems, family problems, teens > in > > MSAE > > > > > doing drugs and getting high and drunk to name a few.Now, > > FF is > > > > > an easy place to live, it has really good vibes from all the > > > > > meditation going on, there is a community feeling and support > > > > network > > > > > there like no place I have ever been...I was happy in my > > life > > > > > there and I am happy in my life not there! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "curtisdeltablues" > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > IT'S FUCKING WESTERN MONEY AND OUR FUCKING VALUES SHOULD > > FOLLOW > > > > > THAT > > > > > > > MONEY. > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm gunna give you credit for cracking a history book or > two > > > > (after > > > > > > MIU because Maharishi had contempt for history studies) > Shemp. > > > > > > > > > > > > Did the Brits keep Indian values as they sucked their > colony > > > > dry? > > > > > It > > > > > > doesn't work that way. The West got a little payback and > now > > with > > > > > > outsourcing we are getting a LOT of payback from India. > > > > > > > > > > > > I think this is the problem: > > > > > > > > > > > > > have > > > > > > > THE program to solve mankind's problems (which I truly > >
[FairfieldLife] Re: Girish Verma back in the fold
Curtis wrote: > I don't meditate to improve my music, > I practice my ass off. > Practicing on your guitar is a meditation. You've probably been meditating your ass off for years without even realizing it. > If you are saying that some other practice > improves your musical ability, I say cool. > But from my POV determining the causality > of such a claim just isn't possible. > Lots of people consider practicing on their musical instrument a type of meditation. You don't have to mutter mantras with your eyes closed in order to meditate. You could just go on muttering the words to your songs with your eyes wide open. But probably lots of singers close their eyes as well, especially after have a bottle of Jack Daniels and smoking some reefer. Probably dozens of people use this kind of meditation practice. There are lots of ways to transcend. > Any more than my neighbors can convince me > that I need to join them on the rug 5 times > a day. > You don't have to sit on a rug to practice. Try sitting on a chair, a couch, or on your porch. You probably already do this at least five times a day. And you probably sit on a stage and take a few bows sometimes as well. Guitarists love to take bows - that makes them feel like a God to their fans. Guitar players love to get worshiped, just like gurus do. > I may be missing out on both counts. That is > how we choose our lives and live with our > choices I guess. > The only thing you seem to be missing out on is using logic: everyone meditates. And you bowed down to the Hindu demi-Gods for years, so you probably don't need to do that anymore anyway. Meditation is based on thinking. Anyone who thinks is meditating. There's probably not a single person on the entire planet who doesn't take a pause once or twice a day to take stock of their mental contents. And, everyone is already transcending, all the time, even without a technique. There's no such thing as 'TM' - there's only one Transcendental.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Girish Verma back in the fold
But I think was all make our choices based on our best guess concerning probability right? I mean, you may not feel compelled to test whether bowing in the direction of Mecca 5 times a day will make everything in your life magically better, but there are a whole bunch of people who try to make this case. I have sort of discarded the whole model of the relationship of human consciousness and the world that the yogis believe. I don't meditate to improve my music, I practice my ass off. If you are saying that some other practice improves your musical ability, I say cool. But from my POV determining the causality of such a claim just isn't possible. Any more than my neighbors can convince me that I need to join them on the rug 5 times a day. I may be missing out on both counts. That is how we choose our lives and live with our choices I guess. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > On Jul 22, 2008, at 1:06 PM, curtisdeltablues wrote: > > > an easy place to live, it has really good vibes from all > > the > meditation going on, there is a community feeling and support > > network > there like no place I have ever been...I was happy in my > > life > there and I am happy in my life not there!> > > > > Taking responsibility for your own happiness, what a concept! > > Excellent post. I think one of the problems with Maharishi's POV was > > the perfectionist standard of life without problems as a goal state. > > I saw a life changing poster hanging in an office once: > > > > Life is 10% what happens to you, > > and 90% how you react to it. > > > > Life is a series of overcoming problems and obstacles, it is not > > supposed to be easy and effortless with all the support of nature > > throwing pedals in our path because of our state of mind,whatever that > > is. Once you accept that about life it gets a lot more fun and you > > don't spend time trying to make the experience of life into an > > unrealistic "nature support" cushy ride. > > > > I think Maharishi got this all wrong. Our state of mind is not the > > most important thing, it is our POV that shapes our lives. Sometimes > > the states of mind meditation cultivates can help, but it is not a > > panacea. Many times it was suffering and pain that woke me the F up > > and made me change my direction in life. Being in a blissful state > > was the last thing I needed. That is how drug addicts live, oblivious > > to life's feedback. > > > I actually think he got it right, he just did not provide the > necessary tools in order to do so, merely the introduction to that > style of spiritual practice where one can manipulate (or appear to > manipulate) ones environment/life circumstances. For an intro. mantra > meditation, I like what Swami Rama and his acharyas would do when > they gave a student their mantra: they'd tell them how their > personality would take on new qualities and write them down for the > person. No huge changes in life circumstances. For example a TM > meditator doing the Saraswati mantra might notice an interest and > increasing abilities in music, conveying oneself or in writing, > communicating to others and speaking. Of course if you were being > honest and had done that mantra, you'd have to ask yourself 'has my > life changed in this way?'. If your answer was "yes" then yes he got > it partially right. > > But to really modify life circumstances I feel one needs more > detailed tantric teachings to do so, although the above-mentioned > example would hold for TM initiates who got the right mantra. So, if > the above is your experience, it might be logical to assume further > teachings and methods could give a further proof of modification of > life circumstances. But until one does such practices, like any > scientist, one should not just assume that experiment would not work. >
[FairfieldLife] Re: Girish Verma back in the fold
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "shempmcgurk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Well, Betty, chances are that if they were into all this other crap, > they weren't doing the TM Program, which is by definition the > opposite of all those things (especially "devotion to MMY"). I know it is just a bit of wizzing in the wind Shemp, but I gotta say that the TM program was whatever Maharishis said it was for the group you were in, and that included, but was not in any way limited to, the basic starter course of the TM practice itself. There were plenty of courses where acting in accordance with the desires of the master WAS your program, even when that interfered with the TM practice itself. (think all nighters on his latest, greatest, most wonderful, had to be done right now, idea) > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, bettyblue109 > wrote: > > > > I lived in Fairfield for almost 30 years and left there about 4 > years > > ago...TM etc did not solve folks problems, I have good friends > > that were 110% loyal to MMY's teachings, everything, I would even > > call them fundementalists ru's, Vastu, group program, ayerveda, > > devotion to MMY, > > > > Well, Betty, chances are that if they were into all this other crap, > they weren't doing the TM Program, which is by definition the > opposite of all those things (especially "devotion to MMY"). > > Those people were off the program and, as such, shouldn't be used as > examples of whether TM is effective or not. > > > > > > they talked it and walked it and they have all the > > same normal problems that anyone else has, ie; career challanges, > too > > much debt, poverty, health problems, family problems, teens in MSAE > > doing drugs and getting high and drunk to name a few.Now, FF is > > an easy place to live, it has really good vibes from all the > > meditation going on, there is a community feeling and support > network > > there like no place I have ever been...I was happy in my life > > there and I am happy in my life not there! > > > > > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "curtisdeltablues" > > wrote: > > > > > > > IT'S FUCKING WESTERN MONEY AND OUR FUCKING VALUES SHOULD FOLLOW > > THAT > > > > MONEY. > > > > > > I'm gunna give you credit for cracking a history book or two > (after > > > MIU because Maharishi had contempt for history studies) Shemp. > > > > > > Did the Brits keep Indian values as they sucked their colony > dry? > > It > > > doesn't work that way. The West got a little payback and now with > > > outsourcing we are getting a LOT of payback from India. > > > > > > I think this is the problem: > > > > > > > > > THE program to solve mankind's problems (which I truly believe > the > > > TM > program can do) and then jeopardize the whole thing by > > appointing > > > your > blood relatives to handle the money> > > > > > > You are one of the main proponents of not Guru-fying Maharishi and > > > here you load him up as the dude who has the key to "solve > mankind's > > > problems?" You are loading the camel too high man. I know he > > pitched > > > himself as all that, but we've been around the block a bit since > he > > > lured us in as kids with promises of lollipop trees and rivers > > running > > > with milk chocolate, right? > > > > > > Ratchet back the expectations to a human level and you get: > > > > > > Maharishis was an ambitious aggressive guy, he was Guru Dev's > James > > > Carvel. When Guru Dev died he went into a funk for two years and > > then > > > shook it off and hit the road. He found out that he could make a > > > living peddling meditation and being a fearless kind of guy took > his > > > roadshow to the West. Once there like every family who lives in > my > > > apartment building, he caught on to how to shake the Western money > > > tree. He was offering a good meditation, people liked it, so he > > > started getting a bit carried away with himself (think the > > > announcement of the World Government in the Fieldhouse at MIU). > > > > > > But of course he took care of his own back home, his family. You > > > gunna blame him for that? I don't even blame him for that. That > > was > > > one of the things he did that makes him seem more like a decent > > human > > > to me. > > > > > > So it is a tougher market in the spiritual practice buz these > days. > > > He had a lot less competition and his exoticness went a lot > further > > > back in the days before we had neighbors who wear Asian threads > of > > all > > > varieties. We were more naive about the Indian POV and it > sounded > > so > > > hippie back in the days before we understood that Sanatana Dharma > > > means supporting a system of caste oppression. Before Paul Mason > > > revealed that most of Guru Dev's rap was about not sinning before > > you > > > die, just like our own fundamentalist preachers. > > > > > > I don't understand why you believe that TM solves th
[FairfieldLife] Re: Girish Verma back in the fold
Thank Shemp. That was one of the best summations of your POV on the movement that I have read. I don't really understand why 'it makes sense that it is the "answer"', but it doesn't have to for me, that is your POV. I really enjoy finding out all the grey zone articulations of people's relationship with the whole thing. Especially from guys like yourself who have shared the MIU thing with me. That was a specific version of the programming. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "shempmcgurk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "curtisdeltablues" > wrote: > > > > > IT'S FUCKING WESTERN MONEY AND OUR FUCKING VALUES SHOULD FOLLOW > THAT > > > MONEY. > > > > I'm gunna give you credit for cracking a history book or two (after > > MIU because Maharishi had contempt for history studies) Shemp. > > > > Did the Brits keep Indian values as they sucked their colony dry? > It > > doesn't work that way. The West got a little payback and now with > > outsourcing we are getting a LOT of payback from India. > > > > I think this is the problem: > > > > > > THE program to solve mankind's problems (which I truly believe the > > TM > program can do) and then jeopardize the whole thing by > appointing > > your > blood relatives to handle the money> > > > > You are one of the main proponents of not Guru-fying Maharishi and > > here you load him up as the dude who has the key to "solve mankind's > > problems?" You are loading the camel too high man. I know he > pitched > > himself as all that, but we've been around the block a bit since he > > lured us in as kids with promises of lollipop trees and rivers > running > > with milk chocolate, right? > > > > Yes, you're absolutely right, Curtis. > > But I think I am the exception as far as acolytes go. Since the day > I started TM, I never much liked Maharishi and pretty much had a bad > taste in my mouth vis a vis his delivery, which approximates that of > an Armenian Rug Salesman in a bazaar in Istanbul. > > But I've always been sold out on the concept of TM: no change in > lifestyle, anyone can do it, simple and easy to do, don't have to > believe in it or adopt it as a religion, you get to experience things > not just talk about it, etc. And I came to that conclusion not > because Maharishi said it -- although, yes, he did indeed say it -- > but because to my discriminating mind that indeed was what TM was. > > Perhaps I got this from my mother who was always cynical and > always "questioned authority", as I think the saying goes. So I > always questioned everything in the TM movement and never really > liked the way they sold the whole thing, except in the first few > years when the TMO started with all the scientific charts, which > coincided with the time I started TM. > > But I believe TM to be the "answer" not because Maharishi says it but > because to me it makes sense that it is the "answer". And it's > created a dilemma for me ever since because I am not a joiner by > nature and I shy away from gurus. And, of course, the movement has > by any standard of measurement become a guru-following cult. > > > > > > > > > Ratchet back the expectations to a human level and you get: > > > > Maharishis was an ambitious aggressive guy, he was Guru Dev's James > > Carvel. When Guru Dev died he went into a funk for two years and > then > > shook it off and hit the road. He found out that he could make a > > living peddling meditation and being a fearless kind of guy took his > > roadshow to the West. Once there like every family who lives in my > > apartment building, he caught on to how to shake the Western money > > tree. He was offering a good meditation, people liked it, so he > > started getting a bit carried away with himself (think the > > announcement of the World Government in the Fieldhouse at MIU). > > > > But of course he took care of his own back home, his family. You > > gunna blame him for that? I don't even blame him for that. That > was > > one of the things he did that makes him seem more like a decent > human > > to me. > > > > So it is a tougher market in the spiritual practice buz these days. > > He had a lot less competition and his exoticness went a lot further > > back in the days before we had neighbors who wear Asian threads of > all > > varieties. We were more naive about the Indian POV and it sounded > so > > hippie back in the days before we understood that Sanatana Dharma > > means supporting a system of caste oppression. Before Paul Mason > > revealed that most of Guru Dev's rap was about not sinning before > you > > die, just like our own fundamentalist preachers. > > > > I don't understand why you believe that TM solves the world's > problems > > Shemp. It hasn't even solved the movement's problems. > > > Right! > > > > > Has it solved > > all of yours? > > > > Hell, I'm miserable half the time! > > > > > Do you really thin
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Girish Verma back in the fold
On Jul 22, 2008, at 1:06 PM, curtisdeltablues wrote: an easy place to live, it has really good vibes from all the > meditation going on, there is a community feeling and support network > there like no place I have ever been...I was happy in my life > there and I am happy in my life not there!> Taking responsibility for your own happiness, what a concept! Excellent post. I think one of the problems with Maharishi's POV was the perfectionist standard of life without problems as a goal state. I saw a life changing poster hanging in an office once: Life is 10% what happens to you, and 90% how you react to it. Life is a series of overcoming problems and obstacles, it is not supposed to be easy and effortless with all the support of nature throwing pedals in our path because of our state of mind,whatever that is. Once you accept that about life it gets a lot more fun and you don't spend time trying to make the experience of life into an unrealistic "nature support" cushy ride. I think Maharishi got this all wrong. Our state of mind is not the most important thing, it is our POV that shapes our lives. Sometimes the states of mind meditation cultivates can help, but it is not a panacea. Many times it was suffering and pain that woke me the F up and made me change my direction in life. Being in a blissful state was the last thing I needed. That is how drug addicts live, oblivious to life's feedback. I actually think he got it right, he just did not provide the necessary tools in order to do so, merely the introduction to that style of spiritual practice where one can manipulate (or appear to manipulate) ones environment/life circumstances. For an intro. mantra meditation, I like what Swami Rama and his acharyas would do when they gave a student their mantra: they'd tell them how their personality would take on new qualities and write them down for the person. No huge changes in life circumstances. For example a TM meditator doing the Saraswati mantra might notice an interest and increasing abilities in music, conveying oneself or in writing, communicating to others and speaking. Of course if you were being honest and had done that mantra, you'd have to ask yourself 'has my life changed in this way?'. If your answer was "yes" then yes he got it partially right. But to really modify life circumstances I feel one needs more detailed tantric teachings to do so, although the above-mentioned example would hold for TM initiates who got the right mantra. So, if the above is your experience, it might be logical to assume further teachings and methods could give a further proof of modification of life circumstances. But until one does such practices, like any scientist, one should not just assume that experiment would not work.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Girish Verma back in the fold
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "curtisdeltablues" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > IT'S FUCKING WESTERN MONEY AND OUR FUCKING VALUES SHOULD FOLLOW THAT > > MONEY. > > I'm gunna give you credit for cracking a history book or two (after > MIU because Maharishi had contempt for history studies) Shemp. > > Did the Brits keep Indian values as they sucked their colony dry? It > doesn't work that way. The West got a little payback and now with > outsourcing we are getting a LOT of payback from India. > > I think this is the problem: > > > THE program to solve mankind's problems (which I truly believe the > TM > program can do) and then jeopardize the whole thing by appointing > your > blood relatives to handle the money> > > You are one of the main proponents of not Guru-fying Maharishi and > here you load him up as the dude who has the key to "solve mankind's > problems?" You are loading the camel too high man. I know he pitched > himself as all that, but we've been around the block a bit since he > lured us in as kids with promises of lollipop trees and rivers running > with milk chocolate, right? Yes, you're absolutely right, Curtis. But I think I am the exception as far as acolytes go. Since the day I started TM, I never much liked Maharishi and pretty much had a bad taste in my mouth vis a vis his delivery, which approximates that of an Armenian Rug Salesman in a bazaar in Istanbul. But I've always been sold out on the concept of TM: no change in lifestyle, anyone can do it, simple and easy to do, don't have to believe in it or adopt it as a religion, you get to experience things not just talk about it, etc. And I came to that conclusion not because Maharishi said it -- although, yes, he did indeed say it -- but because to my discriminating mind that indeed was what TM was. Perhaps I got this from my mother who was always cynical and always "questioned authority", as I think the saying goes. So I always questioned everything in the TM movement and never really liked the way they sold the whole thing, except in the first few years when the TMO started with all the scientific charts, which coincided with the time I started TM. But I believe TM to be the "answer" not because Maharishi says it but because to me it makes sense that it is the "answer". And it's created a dilemma for me ever since because I am not a joiner by nature and I shy away from gurus. And, of course, the movement has by any standard of measurement become a guru-following cult. > > Ratchet back the expectations to a human level and you get: > > Maharishis was an ambitious aggressive guy, he was Guru Dev's James > Carvel. When Guru Dev died he went into a funk for two years and then > shook it off and hit the road. He found out that he could make a > living peddling meditation and being a fearless kind of guy took his > roadshow to the West. Once there like every family who lives in my > apartment building, he caught on to how to shake the Western money > tree. He was offering a good meditation, people liked it, so he > started getting a bit carried away with himself (think the > announcement of the World Government in the Fieldhouse at MIU). > > But of course he took care of his own back home, his family. You > gunna blame him for that? I don't even blame him for that. That was > one of the things he did that makes him seem more like a decent human > to me. > > So it is a tougher market in the spiritual practice buz these days. > He had a lot less competition and his exoticness went a lot further > back in the days before we had neighbors who wear Asian threads of all > varieties. We were more naive about the Indian POV and it sounded so > hippie back in the days before we understood that Sanatana Dharma > means supporting a system of caste oppression. Before Paul Mason > revealed that most of Guru Dev's rap was about not sinning before you > die, just like our own fundamentalist preachers. > > I don't understand why you believe that TM solves the world's problems > Shemp. It hasn't even solved the movement's problems. Right! > Has it solved > all of yours? Hell, I'm miserable half the time! > Do you really think that as a group the TMers are more > or less of any quality, good or bad? I get it that you dig your > meditation, I do too. But let's not make it out to be more than it > really is. And by now you and I know its limits don't we? Don't you? > Let's not let the "perfect" become the enemy of the "good." TM ain't > "all that." But you dig it, so enjoy your chill pill. I accept your above analysis as a totally viable explanation that all that has gone down the past 50 years, Curtis! But I'll suggest the following: perhaps MMY didn't even know the extent of the value of the diamond that he had. What if he indeed had something great but for whatever reason lost that vision (or maybe never had it to begin with)? Canadian stoc
[FairfieldLife] Re: Girish Verma back in the fold
an easy place to live, it has really good vibes from all the > meditation going on, there is a community feeling and support network > there like no place I have ever been...I was happy in my life > there and I am happy in my life not there!> Taking responsibility for your own happiness, what a concept! Excellent post. I think one of the problems with Maharishi's POV was the perfectionist standard of life without problems as a goal state. I saw a life changing poster hanging in an office once: Life is 10% what happens to you, and 90% how you react to it. Life is a series of overcoming problems and obstacles, it is not supposed to be easy and effortless with all the support of nature throwing pedals in our path because of our state of mind,whatever that is. Once you accept that about life it gets a lot more fun and you don't spend time trying to make the experience of life into an unrealistic "nature support" cushy ride. I think Maharishi got this all wrong. Our state of mind is not the most important thing, it is our POV that shapes our lives. Sometimes the states of mind meditation cultivates can help, but it is not a panacea. Many times it was suffering and pain that woke me the F up and made me change my direction in life. Being in a blissful state was the last thing I needed. That is how drug addicts live, oblivious to life's feedback. By now most people who have anything to do with the movement have modified their beliefs in Maharishi's promises. The disconnect between his land with the puppies wagging their licorice tails and the cotton candy clouds had given way to a richer perspective that life is fine as it is, with its occasional ass kicking delivered whether we think magical thoughts or not. It is how our character reacts to what life serves and throwing a bunch of money away for a yagya seems like a perpetuation of the magical thinking that turns real life into a cartoon. I don't blame Maharishi for his rap. We didn't misunderstand what he was saying. He was just overstepping his knowledge base trying to serve up an answer to all problems. He may have even believed it all. Now it is in our hands to decide what parts of his POV were helpful and which were out to lunch. Thinking of the guy as the savior of the world does not help this process IMO. He was just a guy with an enthusiastic rap and as complex a group of motives as we all have. Some altruistic, and some selfish as hell. As Paul McCartney put it so well when asked about his time with Maharishi: "We thought he was ...you know...(raises eyebrows high). But in the end he turned out to be man, just a man." I don't hate the guy for blowing smoke up my ass for 15 years. That was how he rolled. And it has helped shape my personality in ways I value. But I gotta say, I love not having anyone in my life I need to wait around for hours in order to hand flower to. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, bettyblue109 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > I lived in Fairfield for almost 30 years and left there about 4 years > ago...TM etc did not solve folks problems, I have good friends > that were 110% loyal to MMY's teachings, everything, I would even > call them fundementalists ru's, Vastu, group program, ayerveda, > devotion to MMY, they talked it and walked it and they have all the > same normal problems that anyone else has, ie; career challanges, too > much debt, poverty, health problems, family problems, teens in MSAE > doing drugs and getting high and drunk to name a few.Now, FF is > an easy place to live, it has really good vibes from all the > meditation going on, there is a community feeling and support network > there like no place I have ever been...I was happy in my life > there and I am happy in my life not there! > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "curtisdeltablues" > wrote: > > > > > IT'S FUCKING WESTERN MONEY AND OUR FUCKING VALUES SHOULD FOLLOW > THAT > > > MONEY. > > > > I'm gunna give you credit for cracking a history book or two (after > > MIU because Maharishi had contempt for history studies) Shemp. > > > > Did the Brits keep Indian values as they sucked their colony dry? > It > > doesn't work that way. The West got a little payback and now with > > outsourcing we are getting a LOT of payback from India. > > > > I think this is the problem: > > > > > > THE program to solve mankind's problems (which I truly believe the > > TM > program can do) and then jeopardize the whole thing by > appointing > > your > blood relatives to handle the money> > > > > You are one of the main proponents of not Guru-fying Maharishi and > > here you load him up as the dude who has the key to "solve mankind's > > problems?" You are loading the camel too high man. I know he > pitched > > himself as all that, but we've been around the block a bit since he > > lured us in as kids with promises of lollipop trees and rivers > running > > with milk chocolate, righ
[FairfieldLife] Re: Girish Verma back in the fold
I lived in Fairfield for almost 30 years and left there about 4 years ago...TM etc did not solve folks problems, I have good friends that were 110% loyal to MMY's teachings, everything, I would even call them fundementalists ru's, Vastu, group program, ayerveda, devotion to MMY, they talked it and walked it and they have all the same normal problems that anyone else has, ie; career challanges, too much debt, poverty, health problems, family problems, teens in MSAE doing drugs and getting high and drunk to name a few.Now, FF is an easy place to live, it has really good vibes from all the meditation going on, there is a community feeling and support network there like no place I have ever been...I was happy in my life there and I am happy in my life not there! --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "curtisdeltablues" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > IT'S FUCKING WESTERN MONEY AND OUR FUCKING VALUES SHOULD FOLLOW THAT > > MONEY. > > I'm gunna give you credit for cracking a history book or two (after > MIU because Maharishi had contempt for history studies) Shemp. > > Did the Brits keep Indian values as they sucked their colony dry? It > doesn't work that way. The West got a little payback and now with > outsourcing we are getting a LOT of payback from India. > > I think this is the problem: > > > THE program to solve mankind's problems (which I truly believe the > TM > program can do) and then jeopardize the whole thing by appointing > your > blood relatives to handle the money> > > You are one of the main proponents of not Guru-fying Maharishi and > here you load him up as the dude who has the key to "solve mankind's > problems?" You are loading the camel too high man. I know he pitched > himself as all that, but we've been around the block a bit since he > lured us in as kids with promises of lollipop trees and rivers running > with milk chocolate, right? > > Ratchet back the expectations to a human level and you get: > > Maharishis was an ambitious aggressive guy, he was Guru Dev's James > Carvel. When Guru Dev died he went into a funk for two years and then > shook it off and hit the road. He found out that he could make a > living peddling meditation and being a fearless kind of guy took his > roadshow to the West. Once there like every family who lives in my > apartment building, he caught on to how to shake the Western money > tree. He was offering a good meditation, people liked it, so he > started getting a bit carried away with himself (think the > announcement of the World Government in the Fieldhouse at MIU). > > But of course he took care of his own back home, his family. You > gunna blame him for that? I don't even blame him for that. That was > one of the things he did that makes him seem more like a decent human > to me. > > So it is a tougher market in the spiritual practice buz these days. > He had a lot less competition and his exoticness went a lot further > back in the days before we had neighbors who wear Asian threads of all > varieties. We were more naive about the Indian POV and it sounded so > hippie back in the days before we understood that Sanatana Dharma > means supporting a system of caste oppression. Before Paul Mason > revealed that most of Guru Dev's rap was about not sinning before you > die, just like our own fundamentalist preachers. > > I don't understand why you believe that TM solves the world's problems > Shemp. It hasn't even solved the movement's problems. Has it solved > all of yours? Do you really think that as a group the TMers are more > or less of any quality, good or bad? I get it that you dig your > meditation, I do too. But let's not make it out to be more than it > really is. And by now you and I know its limits don't we? Don't you? > Let's not let the "perfect" become the enemy of the "good." TM ain't > "all that." But you dig it, so enjoy your chill pill. > > > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "shempmcgurk" > wrote: > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "claudiouk" wrote: > > > > > > Just watching Verma talking on Maharishi Channel, back in MERU I > > > imagine, and seemingly all is back to normal again. Maybe was a false > > > alarm... He is being very productive in India - good luck to him. > > > > > > > Girish does NOT pass the smell test. > > > > Either they've got photos of him diddling a little boy -- or -- he's > > just biding his time when he will explode and take his little empire > > solo. > > > > I'd like to say: "I hope you're right, claudiouk, and this is an > > instance in which it will be good to be proven wrong" but I'd be > > dishonest. > > > > Why? Because nothing to me is more distasteful than to claim to have > > THE program to solve mankind's problems (which I truly believe the TM > > program can do) and then jeopardize the whole thing by appointing your > > blood relatives to handle the money. > > > > Sorry,
[FairfieldLife] Re: Girish Verma back in the fold
> IT'S FUCKING WESTERN MONEY AND OUR FUCKING VALUES SHOULD FOLLOW THAT > MONEY. I'm gunna give you credit for cracking a history book or two (after MIU because Maharishi had contempt for history studies) Shemp. Did the Brits keep Indian values as they sucked their colony dry? It doesn't work that way. The West got a little payback and now with outsourcing we are getting a LOT of payback from India. I think this is the problem: THE program to solve mankind's problems (which I truly believe the TM > program can do) and then jeopardize the whole thing by appointing your > blood relatives to handle the money> You are one of the main proponents of not Guru-fying Maharishi and here you load him up as the dude who has the key to "solve mankind's problems?" You are loading the camel too high man. I know he pitched himself as all that, but we've been around the block a bit since he lured us in as kids with promises of lollipop trees and rivers running with milk chocolate, right? Ratchet back the expectations to a human level and you get: Maharishis was an ambitious aggressive guy, he was Guru Dev's James Carvel. When Guru Dev died he went into a funk for two years and then shook it off and hit the road. He found out that he could make a living peddling meditation and being a fearless kind of guy took his roadshow to the West. Once there like every family who lives in my apartment building, he caught on to how to shake the Western money tree. He was offering a good meditation, people liked it, so he started getting a bit carried away with himself (think the announcement of the World Government in the Fieldhouse at MIU). But of course he took care of his own back home, his family. You gunna blame him for that? I don't even blame him for that. That was one of the things he did that makes him seem more like a decent human to me. So it is a tougher market in the spiritual practice buz these days. He had a lot less competition and his exoticness went a lot further back in the days before we had neighbors who wear Asian threads of all varieties. We were more naive about the Indian POV and it sounded so hippie back in the days before we understood that Sanatana Dharma means supporting a system of caste oppression. Before Paul Mason revealed that most of Guru Dev's rap was about not sinning before you die, just like our own fundamentalist preachers. I don't understand why you believe that TM solves the world's problems Shemp. It hasn't even solved the movement's problems. Has it solved all of yours? Do you really think that as a group the TMers are more or less of any quality, good or bad? I get it that you dig your meditation, I do too. But let's not make it out to be more than it really is. And by now you and I know its limits don't we? Don't you? Let's not let the "perfect" become the enemy of the "good." TM ain't "all that." But you dig it, so enjoy your chill pill. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "shempmcgurk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "claudiouk" wrote: > > > > Just watching Verma talking on Maharishi Channel, back in MERU I > > imagine, and seemingly all is back to normal again. Maybe was a false > > alarm... He is being very productive in India - good luck to him. > > > > Girish does NOT pass the smell test. > > Either they've got photos of him diddling a little boy -- or -- he's > just biding his time when he will explode and take his little empire > solo. > > I'd like to say: "I hope you're right, claudiouk, and this is an > instance in which it will be good to be proven wrong" but I'd be > dishonest. > > Why? Because nothing to me is more distasteful than to claim to have > THE program to solve mankind's problems (which I truly believe the TM > program can do) and then jeopardize the whole thing by appointing your > blood relatives to handle the money. > > Sorry, this simply isn't done...and I don't give a flying you-know-what > if the justification is "oh, but this sort of thing is the culture of > India and that's the way things are done there." Well, if that's the > case, then IMHO India doesn't deserve to be spiritually regenerated. > > IT'S FUCKING WESTERN MONEY AND OUR FUCKING VALUES SHOULD FOLLOW THAT > MONEY. > > And the sooner this cultish/guru-ish things become a thing of the past, > the better. And if that is accomplished by Fat Cheeks running off and > starting his own movement, then so be it. >
[FairfieldLife] Re: Girish Verma back in the fold
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "claudiouk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Just watching Verma talking on Maharishi Channel, back in MERU I > imagine, and seemingly all is back to normal again. Maybe was a false > alarm... He is being very productive in India - good luck to him. > Girish does NOT pass the smell test. Either they've got photos of him diddling a little boy -- or -- he's just biding his time when he will explode and take his little empire solo. I'd like to say: "I hope you're right, claudiouk, and this is an instance in which it will be good to be proven wrong" but I'd be dishonest. Why? Because nothing to me is more distasteful than to claim to have THE program to solve mankind's problems (which I truly believe the TM program can do) and then jeopardize the whole thing by appointing your blood relatives to handle the money. Sorry, this simply isn't done...and I don't give a flying you-know-what if the justification is "oh, but this sort of thing is the culture of India and that's the way things are done there." Well, if that's the case, then IMHO India doesn't deserve to be spiritually regenerated. IT'S FUCKING WESTERN MONEY AND OUR FUCKING VALUES SHOULD FOLLOW THAT MONEY. And the sooner this cultish/guru-ish things become a thing of the past, the better. And if that is accomplished by Fat Cheeks running off and starting his own movement, then so be it.
