Re: [Finale] Transposed vs. concert pitch.
Le lundi, 14 oct 2002, à 09:00 America/Montreal, Christopher BJ Smith a écrit : > At 5:42 AM -0400 10/14/02, Darcy James Argue wrote: >> >> However, I believe that octave-transposing clefs are becoming more >> common >> even in transposed scores, and sometimes even in the instrumental >> parts. >> For instance, nowadays I sometimes see the 8vb treble clef used in >> guitar >> music. >> >> - Darcy >> It is mostly used in classical guitar notation in chamber music, where the relationship between all instruments is more obvious as the guitar sounds one octave lower as it sound with a normal treble clef. In solo guitar music it is of no interest to use this key because every guitarist know that it sounds an octave lower and it has been written this way for a long long time. ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Transposed vs. concert pitch.
At 5:42 AM -0400 10/14/02, Darcy James Argue wrote: > >However, I believe that octave-transposing clefs are becoming more common >even in transposed scores, and sometimes even in the instrumental parts. >For instance, nowadays I sometimes see the 8vb treble clef used in guitar >music. > >- Darcy Hmm, I would view that trend as highly suspect. Could it be that engravers are simply omitting to change the clef to a regular treble clef on the transposed parts? ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Transposed vs. concert pitch.
At 8:21 PM -0400 10/13/02, Darcy James Argue wrote: >On 2002/10/13 07:22 PM or thereabouts, Christopher BJ Smith ><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> intoned: > >>> Again, this problem is easily avoided by using octave-transposing clefs for >>> octave-transposing instruments. >>> >>> - Darcy >> >> >> But that brings up another problem, which is that those instruments >> do not read with octave clefs, but in ordinary treble clefs and bass >> clefs. > >So don't use them on the part, just in the score! Right, of course! But that means setting each of those staves' transpositions to "set to clef". Which is fine, I suppose, but I like the Setup Wizard, and I haven't figured out how to get staves' settings to be different from the default without changing them individually after exiting the Wizard. Anybody know how that works? Another thing I want is for my drum parts to default to my percussion staff setup from inside the Wizard, and haven't figured THAT out yet, either. Christopher ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Transposed vs. concert pitch.
On 2002/10/14 03:42 AM or thereabouts, Michael Edwards <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> intoned: > [Darcy James Argue:] > >> Again, this problem is easily avoided by using octave-transposing clefs for >> octave-transposing instruments. > > Are they those treble or bass clefs sometimes found in more recent scores > which have a little "8" respectively above or below them, to indicate an > octave transposition? Yes. > (Do you ever find treble clefs with a "15" above them?) I recently made a custom 15ma treble clef specifically for glockenspiel. (It required negotiation of the nasty "nonstandard key signature" dialog to get the accidentals in the key signature to display correctly.) > But... > > [Christopher B. J. Smith:] > >> But that brings up another problem, which is that those instruments >> do not read with octave clefs, but in ordinary treble clefs and bass >> clefs. > > ... this seems to indicate otherwise - that the octave clefs are something > quite *different* from treble or bass clefs. I think you misunderstood what Chris meant. He was saying that the use of, say, an 8vb bass clef on a contrabassoon *part* might confuse the player, who is used to reading a plain vanilla bass clef, and having his instrument do the transposing for him. He might look at the 8vb bass clef, and reasonably assume that the composer wanted him to play the notes an octave below where they are written, which would of course sound an octave below *that* (i.e., an octave too low). The simple solution is to use octave-transposing clefs in the (concert pitch) score only -- this is done to avoid the ambiguity that sometimes results when dealing with octave-transposing instruments in a concert pitch score -- and regular treble and bass clefs in the parts. However, I believe that octave-transposing clefs are becoming more common even in transposed scores, and sometimes even in the instrumental parts. For instance, nowadays I sometimes see the 8vb treble clef used in guitar music. - Darcy -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Boston, MA ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Transposed vs. concert pitch.
[Christopher B. J. Smith:] >> I don't know whether this is universal, but the way I was taught when >> writing concert-pitch scores, octave-transposing instruments such as >> picc, contrabassoon, glock, and double bass are written in the octave >> read by the player regardless. This seems to fly in the face of the >> convention of concert pitch, where EVERYTHING should be written where >> it sounds, but I learned to call these things C scores, not >> concert-pitch scores. Well, Kennan (yes, I know someone said he was out of date) says that C scores can either have everything at concert pitch, or else make an exception for the usual octave transpositions. It also says that the glockenspiel (in a normal, transposing score) can transpose either one octave or two. Clearly composers should always attach a note at the start of their score, explaining what conventions they are using. [Darcy James Argue:] >Again, this problem is easily avoided by using octave-transposing clefs for >octave-transposing instruments. Are they those treble or bass clefs sometimes found in more recent scores which have a little "8" respectively above or below them, to indicate an octave transposition? (Do you ever find treble clefs with a "15" above them?) But... [Christopher B. J. Smith:] >But that brings up another problem, which is that those instruments >do not read with octave clefs, but in ordinary treble clefs and bass >clefs. ... this seems to indicate otherwise - that the octave clefs are something quite *different* from treble or bass clefs. Could someone please explain this? The clefs I know about are treble and bass clefs, the same with an "8" above or below, and the C-clefs in various positions. These are never used with octave-transposition, as far as I know. So what octave clefs are being referred to here? What do they look like, and how (if at all) do you transpose from the "obvious" reading of the notes? Regards, Michael Edwards. ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Transposed vs. concert pitch.
On 2002/10/13 07:22 PM or thereabouts, Christopher BJ Smith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> intoned: >> Again, this problem is easily avoided by using octave-transposing clefs for >> octave-transposing instruments. >> >> - Darcy > > > But that brings up another problem, which is that those instruments > do not read with octave clefs, but in ordinary treble clefs and bass > clefs. So don't use them on the part, just in the score! - Darcy -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Boston, MA ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Transposed vs. concert pitch.
At 5:17 PM -0400 10/13/02, Darcy James Argue wrote: >On 2002/10/13 04:23 PM or thereabouts, Christopher BJ Smith ><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> intoned: > >> I don't know whether this is universal, but the way I was taught when >> writing concert-pitch scores, octave-transposing instruments such as >> picc, contrabassoon, glock, and double bass are written in the octave >> read by the player regardless. This seems to fly in the face of the >> convention of concert pitch, where EVERYTHING should be written where >> it sounds, but I learned to call these things C scores, not >> concert-pitch scores. > >Again, this problem is easily avoided by using octave-transposing clefs for >octave-transposing instruments. > >- Darcy But that brings up another problem, which is that those instruments do not read with octave clefs, but in ordinary treble clefs and bass clefs. Christopher ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Transposed vs. concert pitch.
On 2002/10/13 04:23 PM or thereabouts, Christopher BJ Smith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> intoned: > I don't know whether this is universal, but the way I was taught when > writing concert-pitch scores, octave-transposing instruments such as > picc, contrabassoon, glock, and double bass are written in the octave > read by the player regardless. This seems to fly in the face of the > convention of concert pitch, where EVERYTHING should be written where > it sounds, but I learned to call these things C scores, not > concert-pitch scores. Again, this problem is easily avoided by using octave-transposing clefs for octave-transposing instruments. - Darcy -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Boston, MA ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Transposed vs. concert pitch.
At 6:09 PM +1000 10/13/02, helgesen wrote: >Do advocates of non-transposed scores enjoy 6 or 7 leger lines in Picc, >Glock, Bass Tuba, or ContraBassoon? are these 'acceptable' exceptions? >Regards, Keith in OZ Bass tuba is non-transposing, and they are as used to 6 ledger lines below the staff as flute and violin players are used to 6 ledger lines above the staff. I don't know whether this is universal, but the way I was taught when writing concert-pitch scores, octave-transposing instruments such as picc, contrabassoon, glock, and double bass are written in the octave read by the player regardless. This seems to fly in the face of the convention of concert pitch, where EVERYTHING should be written where it sounds, but I learned to call these things C scores, not concert-pitch scores. Actually, lack of standardisation in C scores is one of the reasons I only write transposed scores. Christopher ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Transposed vs. concert pitch.
At 5:58 AM -0400 10/13/02, Darcy James Argue wrote: >At any rate, there is an incredible amount of unreasonable prejudice against >concert pitch scores. It's like the musical equivalent of speaking with a >southern accent -- it's guaranteed to make people instantly assume you're an >idiot. (This despite the established composers who have used them.) Established composers are assumed to be idiots if they use southern accents? Gee, I had no idea! 8-) > >The other thing is, regardless of whether the end product will be a >transposed score or a concert pitch score, I always compose and arrange with >"display in concert pitch" turned on. I can't really imagine doing it >otherwise -- it would drive me nuts if the pitches I heard when I play in >the music in Speedy Entry were not the pitches I wanted the instruments to >play. This is my problem too. I simply turn on "Display in concert pitch" for Speedy Entry, and turn it off for everything else. Christopher ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Transposed vs. concert pitch.
At 03:10 PM 10/13/02 -0500, John Howell wrote: >Are you suggesting that orchestral clarinetists don't have >both A and Bb clarinets? Or that violists try to play their parts on >violins? Or ... or what? A least four real-life examples that have happened to me (in performance): Right on #1! Amateur orchestra with only a Bb clarinet to play the part written for A clarinet. A tenor sax substituting for a French horn player who got sick. Violins redistributed to cover the viola part because only one violist arrived. A part-time conductor who could not read a transposed score well enough to hear mistakes. Also, I live in Vermont, and only recently have there been enough players to go around in the smaller orchestras. I write considerable music for amateur ensembles, so my job is to help the performance, not hinder it. Since the bulk of my music is keyless, there's really no point to making a transposition with a key signature, while it's confusing to tranpose it without one. I go with simple, so everybody with basic skills can read it. If you're a professional conductor, you can read a concert-pitch score as well as anything else anyway, right? If you're not, you probably need a concert-pitch score for efficiency -- especially if you have seriously chromatic/atonal music that offers no harmonic guides. By the way, I just had a look, and the UE Berg Chamber Concerto for violin, piano & 13 winds, for example, is at concert pitch: "In dieser Partitur gibt es ... keine transponierenden Instrumente mehr. Alle Instrumente (auch Piccolo und Kontrafagott) klinge dem nach so, wie sie notiert sind." Even professional conductors often depend on tonal harmonic context to read transposed scores. (Not just context; sometimes they depended on other assistance, such as recordings -- Leinsdorf slammed his colleagues pretty hard some years ago in "The Composer's Advocate", as did Slonimsky on a regular basis.) I recall an embarrassing incident at a house party where a over-happy conductor was wailing through some Beethoven symphony from the full score. Then I opened some atonal goodie sitting on the piano for him to play. That didn't last long, though he got some of the string parts right. :) Dennis ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Transposed vs. concert pitch.
Dennis wrote: > >And in the real orchestra pit in East Bumstock, how many performances >actually use instruments in the keys as specified in the score? Or even the >instruments themselves as specified? Huh Either I don't understand the intended humor, or that's a slightly naive question. Are you suggesting that orchestral clarinetists don't have both A and Bb clarinets? Or that violists try to play their parts on violins? Or ... or what? That wind players are no longer using 1-keyed flutes or natural trumpets in F (except in period orchestras)? But you're right about concert/transposed being a religious debate. Like Mac/Windoze. John John & Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Transposed vs. concert pitch.
On 2002/10/13 03:17 PM or thereabouts, John Howell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> intoned: > Only if you assume that we stupid Americans can only read treble and bass > clefs. Remember that the moveable C clefs are also "concert pitch." You > can't read them? Why not? Become fluent in reading all 9 moveable clefs > and they become a wonderful tool for transposing. And they're all "concert > pitch." Well, obviously it would raise more than a few eyebrows to have the horn or tenor sax parts in the score written in tenor clef. (Of course any competent conductor reads tenor clef just fine but that's not the point.) It would be more confusing than simply switching back and forth between treble and bass as the situation demands, simply because it's so out of the ordinary, and would likely make the conductor wonder what on earth you were thinking. >> The other thing is, regardless of whether the end product will be a >> transposed score or a concert pitch score, I always compose and arrange with >> "display in concert pitch" turned on. I can't really imagine doing it >> otherwise -- it would drive me nuts if the pitches I heard when I play in >> the music in Speedy Entry were not the pitches I wanted the instruments to >> play. > > Clearly a matter of personal taste, and nobody is going to persuade anyone > else to switch over. In my case, it would drive me nuts if the pitches I > read off the page were not notated as they will be seen by the player, > because when I was younger I made a point of learning to play all the > instruments at least well enough to understand (a) what the actual tone > quality of each note is throughout the range and (b) what is easy on each > instrument and what is difficult. When I see the transposed part I know > exactly how it will balance and blend. A pianist would probably prefer > concert pitch. Well, another not inconsiderable benefit to doing note entry in concert pitch is being able to simply copy doubled passages, without having to also transpose them appropriately. - Darcy -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Boston, MA ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Transposed vs. concert pitch.
Darcy James Argue wrote: >That is a trivial problem when using a concert pitch score >(or score in C, or whatever you wanna call it). [...] >The real problem are the horns, which will require either excessive ledger >lines, or numerous clef changes, many of which will not be needed in the >part. The same problem applies to the tenor sax and (to a lesser extent) to >bass clarinet. Only if you assume that we stupid Americans can only read treble and bass clefs. Remember that the moveable C clefs are also "concert pitch." You can't read them? Why not? Become fluent in reading all 9 moveable clefs and they become a wonderful tool for transposing. And they're all "concert pitch." >The other thing is, regardless of whether the end product will be a >transposed score or a concert pitch score, I always compose and arrange with >"display in concert pitch" turned on. I can't really imagine doing it >otherwise -- it would drive me nuts if the pitches I heard when I play in >the music in Speedy Entry were not the pitches I wanted the instruments to >play. Clearly a matter of personal taste, and nobody is going to persuade anyone else to switch over. In my case, it would drive me nuts if the pitches I read off the page were not notated as they will be seen by the player, because when I was younger I made a point of learning to play all the instruments at least well enough to understand (a) what the actual tone quality of each note is throughout the range and (b) what is easy on each instrument and what is difficult. When I see the transposed part I know exactly how it will balance and blend. A pianist would probably prefer concert pitch. John John & Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Transposed vs. concert pitch.
On 13.10.2002 14:43 Uhr, Dennis Bathory-Kitsz wrote > At 01:16 PM 10/13/02 +0200, Johannes Gebauer wrote: >> Just imagine the nightmare in the orchestra pit, when the >> conductor asks "are you playing a B flat or a B natural there", and the >> clarinetist starts trying to work out what the hell the conductor is talking >> about, "do you mean that C - (it is a C isn't it?)?" - Conductor, trying >> hard not to embarass himself: "C... C, that right, that C (are they playing >> B flat clarinets, or A clarinets...) could be a... hang on, I just work this >> out...don't worry, I'll look at it later...". > > So wait, all these Great Transposing Players who can Play In Any Key At > Sight can't figure out the transposition from a C score when the conductor > asks? Even from my own erstwhile & wayward performing days, I remember the > question always being phrased as, "Are you playing an A concert there?" Point taken, I was only trying to be funny. Seriously, I personally like to see transposed instruments also transposed in the score. A lot of factors play a role in that, one being that I find it much easier to "feel and think" like the performer, something I regard pretty important for anyone conducting (in my case directing) ensembles. Johannes -- http://www.musikmanufaktur.com http://www.camerata-berolinensis.de ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Transposed vs. concert pitch.
At 8:43 AM -0400 10/13/02, Dennis Bathory-Kitsz wrote: At 01:16 PM 10/13/02 +0200, Johannes Gebauer wrote: Just imagine the nightmare in the orchestra pit, when the conductor asks "are you playing a B flat or a B natural there", and the clarinetist starts trying to work out what the hell the conductor is talking about, "do you mean that C - (it is a C isn't it?)?" - Conductor, trying hard not to embarass himself: "C... C, that right, that C (are they playing B flat clarinets, or A clarinets...) could be a... hang on, I just work this out...don't worry, I'll look at it later...". It's not that hard! I always say "written B should be Bb" or "At bar 4, the second note, concert F, should be E natural". It's an old habit that I acquired after the first player said, "B written or concert?" and if I define my terms in the context of my request, no player has ever expressed confusion. All this talk of chaos over transposed/non-transposed scores is overwrought, in my opinion. But then I don't live in Germany. . . Linda Worsley -- Hear the music at: http://www.ganymuse.com/ ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Transposed vs. concert pitch.
At 01:16 PM 10/13/02 +0200, Johannes Gebauer wrote: >Just imagine the nightmare in the orchestra pit, when the >conductor asks "are you playing a B flat or a B natural there", and the >clarinetist starts trying to work out what the hell the conductor is talking >about, "do you mean that C - (it is a C isn't it?)?" - Conductor, trying >hard not to embarass himself: "C... C, that right, that C (are they playing >B flat clarinets, or A clarinets...) could be a... hang on, I just work this >out...don't worry, I'll look at it later...". So wait, all these Great Transposing Players who can Play In Any Key At Sight can't figure out the transposition from a C score when the conductor asks? Even from my own erstwhile & wayward performing days, I remember the question always being phrased as, "Are you playing an A concert there?" And in the real orchestra pit in East Bumstock, how many performances actually use instruments in the keys as specified in the score? Or even the instruments themselves as specified? I know concert/transposed is one of those religious debates, so I'll genuflect my way outta here right now... I'm a concert-score believer, hallelujah. Dennis ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Transposed vs. concert pitch.
At 06:09 PM 10/13/02 +1000, helgesen wrote: >Do advocates of non-transposed scores enjoy 6 or 7 leger lines in Picc, >Glock, Bass Tuba, or ContraBassoon? are these 'acceptable' exceptions? All my scores since 1968 are only at concert pitch, except for octave-transposing instruments (which are so marked at the clefs; I even use the transposing-treble for tenor voices). I have always written full scores at concert pitch, and was first taught (35 years ago now) that for new scores in the U.S. (except band scores), concert pitch was recommended because no matter how the parts might be later re-edited for changing players or standards, the score will be good. I was copyist for an ensemble in the late 1960s that required me to write out parts from a 'wet' photocopy of Berlioz's F&T Symphony -- before it was republished, I think, as this miserable copy came from the "publisher" in Paris. Aside from my own nightmare of redoing horn transpositions to every key (pre-valved horns) to F horns, I watched the conductor (who was no slouch) and wind ensemble get into train wreck after train wreck with this score that combined nonstandard transpositions, moveable clefs (not just alto & tenor), obsolete instruments, and instruments in abandoned transpositions. The conductor can transpose off the score when talking to players, but double-transposing (score to A clarinet back to Bb clarinet, if that's the performer's preference) is a guaranteed disaster. That was an incredible object lesson for me as a young composer, so all my scores from then on were written at sounding pitch. Dennis ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Transposed vs. concert pitch.
On 13.10.2002 3:18 Uhr, David H. Bailey wrote > Speaking as a conductor, I like to see in my score just what the player > sees in the part. That way there is no confusion, I know exactly what > the player is looking at and we can sort out any problem from there. I > would hate to have the bass clarinet part in the score be written in > bass clef at sounding pitch while the actual part is transposed to Bb > and written in treble clef a major 9th up. Absolutely. Just imagine the nightmare in the orchestra pit, when the conductor asks "are you playing a B flat or a B natural there", and the clarinetist starts trying to work out what the hell the conductor is talking about, "do you mean that C - (it is a C isn't it?)?" - Conductor, trying hard not to embarass himself: "C... C, that right, that C (are they playing B flat clarinets, or A clarinets...) could be a... hang on, I just work this out...don't worry, I'll look at it later...". Johannes -- http://www.musikmanufaktur.com http://www.camerata-berolinensis.de ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Transposed vs. concert pitch.
On 2002/10/13 04:09 AM or thereabouts, helgesen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> intoned: > Do advocates of non-transposed scores enjoy 6 or 7 leger lines in Picc, > Glock, Bass Tuba, or ContraBassoon? are these 'acceptable' exceptions? Oh, come now. That is a trivial problem when using a concert pitch score (or score in C, or whatever you wanna call it). One can (A) make an exception for octave-transposing instruments (not a big deal); (B) use octave-transposing clefs for such instruments (or in the case of the glock, a two-octave transposing clef); or (C) deal with the ledger lines, à la Schoenberg. I tend to go with (B) myself. And by the way, tubas (including bass and contrabass tubas) are not transposing instruments. The real problem are the horns, which will require either excessive ledger lines, or numerous clef changes, many of which will not be needed in the part. The same problem applies to the tenor sax and (to a lesser extent) to bass clarinet. At any rate, there is an incredible amount of unreasonable prejudice against concert pitch scores. It's like the musical equivalent of speaking with a southern accent -- it's guaranteed to make people instantly assume you're an idiot. (This despite the established composers who have used them.) My own view is that transposed scores are most useful in music with a key signature. They make less sense (and, for me at least, are somewhat more difficult to read) in music without key signatures, and so I tend to use concert pitch scores for my own music. But preference for one over the other seems largely a matter of what one is used to -- for instance, it is just as easy to "see" things like the break on a clarinet, or tricky horn passages, etc, in a concert pitch score, provided you're used to reading one. The other thing is, regardless of whether the end product will be a transposed score or a concert pitch score, I always compose and arrange with "display in concert pitch" turned on. I can't really imagine doing it otherwise -- it would drive me nuts if the pitches I heard when I play in the music in Speedy Entry were not the pitches I wanted the instruments to play. - Darcy -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Boston, MA ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Transposed vs. concert pitch.
In a message dated 13/10/2002 00:33:35 GMT Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: It seems to me that score-reading would be simplified to a very great degree if all parts were written at actual pitch and in the appropriate clef - and I have seen this done in some 20th-century scores. I find exactly the opposite. When I have been forced to use scores in concert pitch I find it very difficult to hear the sounds and find myself having to do a "back transposition". In a "normal" score, I can see the position of the transposing instruments on the stave and have a good idea of what the sound will be like. Paradoxically, this also applies when the brass are in their classical transpositions. I can't explain that, I suppose it's just what I'm used to. All the best, Lawrence Of sourse, I am a horn player and used to transposing anyway. http://lawrenceyates.co.uk
Re: [Finale] Transposed vs. concert pitch.
I agree totally. Parts should- nay- *must* be done for the convenience of the players. If a conductor is not experienced enough to read the score in transposed parts then work needs to be done - by them. After many years of arranging I automatically- and unconsciously, transpose all parts, as seen, to concert. eg I see G written for French horn and its a C. I see G for Alto Sax, it's Bb, D for Alto flute it's A, etc.The only time it gets me in trouble is when for example, I say to a horn player,something like- "Your E is a misprint- change it to Eb"- horn player looks at me and says but I haven't got E, I've got B. Do advocates of non-transposed scores enjoy 6 or 7 leger lines in Picc, Glock, Bass Tuba, or ContraBassoon? are these 'acceptable' exceptions? Regards, Keith in OZ - Original Message - From: Ken Durling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Finale <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Sunday, October 13, 2002 9:45 AM Subject: Re: [Finale] Transposed vs. concert pitch. > The main argument against this for me, as someone who has done a fair > amount of conducting, is that after you have studied all the > instruments and their characteristic sound in different parts of their > range, I would much rather see what the player sees, and have therby a > very clear sense of what the player is confronting sonically and > technically. Characteristic or problematic note combinations, > extremes of range, idiomatic figures, all stand out more clearly in a > transposed score. The transposing to sounding pitch just takes > practice, and should be a part of a conductor's or a composer's > training. > > > Ken > ___ > Finale mailing list > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Transposed vs. concert pitch.
Michael Edwards wrote: [snip] Well, I have to grant that players of transposing instruments are not used to reading parts at concert pitch - but now that we can use computers to notate music, there would seem to be something to be said for producing scores written at concert pitch, but, when extracting parts that players are to read from, putting the appropriate transpositions and clef changes in. That way, you can simplify score-reading (greatly, not just trivially), and yet satisfy players who wish to read parts that follow the various transpositions, traditional clefs, and the like. Speaking as a conductor, I like to see in my score just what the player sees in the part. That way there is no confusion, I know exactly what the player is looking at and we can sort out any problem from there. I would hate to have the bass clarinet part in the score be written in bass clef at sounding pitch while the actual part is transposed to Bb and written in treble clef a major 9th up. The whole thing really is a muddle, though, because, as you say, looking at a score and figuring out the harmonies and how the parts fit with each other is more difficult with that added level of transposition. But from a practical point of view, working mostly with amateurs, I prefer the score and the parts to match perfectly. That way, when they don't, it is easy to sort out the discrepancies. -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Transposed vs. concert pitch.
The main argument against this for me, as someone who has done a fair amount of conducting, is that after you have studied all the instruments and their characteristic sound in different parts of their range, I would much rather see what the player sees, and have therby a very clear sense of what the player is confronting sonically and technically. Characteristic or problematic note combinations, extremes of range, idiomatic figures, all stand out more clearly in a transposed score. The transposing to sounding pitch just takes practice, and should be a part of a conductor's or a composer's training. Ken ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
