Re: [Finale] Re: trombone clefs
I don't know of much RECENT music written for alto-tenor-bass orchestra sections, though that was overwhelmingly the case from Haydn up to Tchakovsky or so. Tchaik, for example, is almost always played on tenor trombone because of the range, though it is written mostly in alto clef. I think we agreed that what was in the score does not represent what the players see (one of the few exceptions to the score matches parts in all ways rule.) Through the 19th century, alto-tenor-bass instruments AND clefs on the parts were the norm, and should be reproduced that way in authentic editions. A curious effect happened for first part of the 20th century in Russian music. Shostakovich and his contemporaries were told by some teacher that tenor trombone parts were always written in alto clef and this misinformation was propagated from mentor to student, so for fifty years or so it was alto clef for first AND second trombone parts, and bass clef for third trombone. No tenor clef. Since this was obviously an error, I don't think it would be wrong to use tenor or bass clef for new editions of these composers' works. Christopher On Jun 20, 2006, at 6:35 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Recent scores often put 1st and 2nd on one stave in tenor, but parts are alto, tenor, bass, respectively. RBH - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Tuesday, June 20, 2006 8:45 Subject: [Finale] Re: trombone clefs To: finale@shsu.edu Every time I've played the Schumann or Schubert symphonies, the parts were 1st-Alto Clef, 2nd-Tenor Clef, and 3rd-Bass Clef. The copies I have at home of these parts are all like that. The score might lump the first 2 parts in 1 clef for space-saving or to suggest some kind of group-treatment, but that's just my speculation. -Steve S NYC In a message dated 6/19/06 1:01:39 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: OK, I'll bite. 19th-c. orchl. piece. Only the score survives, in copyist's hand. Trombones (alto, tenor, bass) on two staves: A and T on one, in the alto clef, and bass on the other, in bass clef. When I extract the parts, should the tenor trombone part be: 1) in the alto clef, because that's what it is in the score. 2) in the tenor clef, because that's the norm for 19th-c. tenor trombone parts. 3) in bass clef, because that's what's usual today. NOTE: I am trying to be authentic here, so, e.g., the clarinets are getting parts for cl. in C, as per the score. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] Re: trombone clefs
Are you sure about Tchaik? All the scores I have at hand (Sym. 4,5,6, Romeo and Juliet, Capriccio Italien) have 1st and 2nd trombones in tenor clef, 3rd in bass clef. Of course, the parts could be different. Odd bit of info about Shostakovich, if true (I can verify his scores are as you say). They had access to most scores, even contemporary Western ones. Strange. Lee Actor Composer-in-Residence and Assistant Conductor, Palo Alto Philharmonic http://www.leeactor.com I don't know of much RECENT music written for alto-tenor-bass orchestra sections, though that was overwhelmingly the case from Haydn up to Tchakovsky or so. Tchaik, for example, is almost always played on tenor trombone because of the range, though it is written mostly in alto clef. I think we agreed that what was in the score does not represent what the players see (one of the few exceptions to the score matches parts in all ways rule.) Through the 19th century, alto-tenor-bass instruments AND clefs on the parts were the norm, and should be reproduced that way in authentic editions. A curious effect happened for first part of the 20th century in Russian music. Shostakovich and his contemporaries were told by some teacher that tenor trombone parts were always written in alto clef and this misinformation was propagated from mentor to student, so for fifty years or so it was alto clef for first AND second trombone parts, and bass clef for third trombone. No tenor clef. Since this was obviously an error, I don't think it would be wrong to use tenor or bass clef for new editions of these composers' works. Christopher ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Subject: Re: Subject: Re: [Finale] Kiss Me, Kate books
In a message dated 6/21/06 1:01:29 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: From: David W. Fenton [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Subject: Re: [Finale] Kiss Me, Kate books On 20 Jun 2006 at 12:00, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yes, 95% of the orchestration changes taking place in recent years on B'way are for the budget. But is it not quite obvious that the Kiss Me, Kate re-orchestration was *not* done for that reason? It reduced the number of players by ONE but added doublers. Since doublers are paid more, seems to me that budget-wise it would be pretty close to a wash on the budget. Yes, that is true. KMK must be in the 5% artistes category ! -Steve S NYC ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
[Finale] Neumes/Gregorian Chant Notation (Medieval Plugin)
(I don't think this went through the first time, sorry if it is a repeat) Hello list, A couple of weeks ago I wrote in with some questions about creating medieval (neumes) notation in Finale. (see the thread: [Finale] Neumes/Gregorian Chant Notation). Well, we received the plug-in today and I just went through the tutorial: The output is just as nice as it looked on the web page samples. It provides you a tool bar with 12 new tools that are specific to the notation, two templates and two fonts with .fan files provided. For the most part it is really quite elegant, and pleasantly assumes some base knowledge of Medieval notation, in that a lot of the ligature changes are created through combining of the actual pitches they represent. (Which I find handy, others may disagree). One interesting feature is that it deals with the problem of meter, (or lack thereof actually), by dealing with meter for you. You basically over-fill measures and then Medieval has tools that work around these spacing problems and allow you to enter a lot of notes and make them look good. I'm honestly a little weirded out when I'm taken out of the equation for dealing with something Finale does, but I think it might be something I could get used to. (At least in this specific case). Here's how typical entry goes: You enter all the pitches in a measure as quarter notes using speedy or simple entry. (Making sure that check for overfull measures is off, jump to next measure, etc and all that stuff is off). You select your entries using mass edit, and use the spacing tool provided with medieval. You use select partial measures to edit and group pitches together by creating ligatures, cycle through various noteheads, add special symbols, etc. Finally, there are nudge tools that allow you to fine tune the positioning of gropus or single pitches. Handy. The fonts offer a decent variety of characters and I feel they all look pretty elegant. Seems like a worthwhile purchase if Medieval notation is your thing. -Scot for more info: http://www.klemm-music.de/medieval/ if you are interested in purchasing, I'm reminded that Nick Carter's company sells it domestically in the US: www.npcimaging.com ; otherwise it's coming from Deutchland. -- Scot Hanna-Weir Music Engraver A-R Editions, Inc. Music Educator --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: trombone clefs
No, I am not sure. I don't know about the scores, though we had established that the clefs in the score and parts might not agree. But the parts I've seen are mostly in alto clef for the 1st trombone (at least, the editions I tend to get in the small orchestras I play with on occasion.) It is possible that I have seen early, or late, editions that are not normal. I have also played some versions of some works in one clef, while another version is in another clef. Sometimes I get a movement from one publisher, and another movement from another publisher, possibly because the conductor liked some aspect of another edition. Perhaps a later edition was correcting sloppy decisions in the originals (like, for all I know, Shostakovich fully expected the parts to be copied in the correct clef, and never verified that some music preparation person had duplicated his clefs exactly as he had written them in the score.) I think some of these questions are best left to specialists. I am only conjecturing at this point as to the reasons behind these things. My friend who has played first trombone in the Montreal Symphony Orchestra says that he fully expects first trombone parts to appear in alto clef, up until the 20th century, and would be severely put out if some modern edition showed up on the stand with the wrong clef. There are a whole set of cues that he gets from the notation that pertain to style and instrument selection, that if they are missing, might confuse the decisions he has to make. This topic has come up before, and regulars on the list know that I set great stock in providing those cues as accurately as I can, whatever the style is. There are certain expectations, and going with them or intentionally going against them will have an effect on the performance. About Shostakovich - it is entirely possible that he only used alto clef in his scores out of convenience. There are many examples of trombone parts doubled up on a single staff in the score, alto, tenor or bass clef, and it is possible that he didn't consider the choice of clef to be all that critical as long as the parts were in the correct clef. The fact that the parts DIDN'T get put into their normal clef might have nothing to do with him at all. Ah, well, there's a thesis topic for some Master's student in trombone performance! Christopher On Jun 21, 2006, at 1:50 PM, Lee Actor wrote: Are you sure about Tchaik? All the scores I have at hand (Sym. 4,5,6, Romeo and Juliet, Capriccio Italien) have 1st and 2nd trombones in tenor clef, 3rd in bass clef. Of course, the parts could be different. Odd bit of info about Shostakovich, if true (I can verify his scores are as you say). They had access to most scores, even contemporary Western ones. Strange. Lee Actor Composer-in-Residence and Assistant Conductor, Palo Alto Philharmonic http://www.leeactor.com I don't know of much RECENT music written for alto-tenor-bass orchestra sections, though that was overwhelmingly the case from Haydn up to Tchakovsky or so. Tchaik, for example, is almost always played on tenor trombone because of the range, though it is written mostly in alto clef. I think we agreed that what was in the score does not represent what the players see (one of the few exceptions to the score matches parts in all ways rule.) Through the 19th century, alto-tenor-bass instruments AND clefs on the parts were the norm, and should be reproduced that way in authentic editions. A curious effect happened for first part of the 20th century in Russian music. Shostakovich and his contemporaries were told by some teacher that tenor trombone parts were always written in alto clef and this misinformation was propagated from mentor to student, so for fifty years or so it was alto clef for first AND second trombone parts, and bass clef for third trombone. No tenor clef. Since this was obviously an error, I don't think it would be wrong to use tenor or bass clef for new editions of these composers' works. Christopher ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: trombone clefs
I don't know of much RECENT music written for alto-tenor-bass orchestra sections, though that was overwhelmingly the case from Haydn up to Tchakovsky or so. Are you sure Tchaik wanted alto trombone? Generally, my impression is that alto trombone went out of fashion towards the end of the 19th cent. (replaced by a tenor). It seems to be only recently that alto trombone is re-emerging in mainstream professional orchestras. Before that, even alto parts were usually played on tenors. Personally, I like alto trombone very much. My latest orch. piece used alto/ten/bass rather than the (now) more standard tenor 1/2, bass. Fortunately the player has and enjoys playing an alto trombone. After hearing it, I will probably rescore a few passages for tenor, though. Alto trombone can't achieve the dark tenor sound, which is great unless you want the dark tenor sound. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: trombone clefs
Sorry, I meant to say that the change over to tenor was more or less complete by the time we get to Tchaik or so. He certainly was writing for two tenor trombones, and a bunch of the French composers even before him were writing for three tenors. As you implied, it was a fashion change that came about slowly, and sooner in some parts than in others. And yes, you are right that most of the old parts were played on tenor trombone for most of the 20th century, with alto trombone making somewhat of a comeback for the older repertoire recently. Even twenty years ago, when I started, Brahms was mostly being played on tenor trombone on the first parts, whereas most of the major orchestras use alto now. And that is GREAT that you are writing modern works for alto trombone! Thank you for the clarification. As I said, I am not really an expert on the literature - I just hear the guys I play with talking about it, and see the parts. Christopher On Jun 21, 2006, at 2:46 PM, Robert Patterson wrote: I don't know of much RECENT music written for alto-tenor-bass orchestra sections, though that was overwhelmingly the case from Haydn up to Tchakovsky or so. Are you sure Tchaik wanted alto trombone? Generally, my impression is that alto trombone went out of fashion towards the end of the 19th cent. (replaced by a tenor). It seems to be only recently that alto trombone is re-emerging in mainstream professional orchestras. Before that, even alto parts were usually played on tenors. Personally, I like alto trombone very much. My latest orch. piece used alto/ten/bass rather than the (now) more standard tenor 1/2, bass. Fortunately the player has and enjoys playing an alto trombone. After hearing it, I will probably rescore a few passages for tenor, though. Alto trombone can't achieve the dark tenor sound, which is great unless you want the dark tenor sound. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
[Finale] orchestra parts
Orchestra parts, printed 2-up as booklets on folded double sheets. Q: should the booklet be center-stapled, or left as loose sheets? Andrew Stiller Kallisti Music Press http://home.netcom.com/~kallisti/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: trombone clefs
At 6:46 PM + 6/21/06, Robert Patterson wrote: I don't know of much RECENT music written for alto-tenor-bass orchestra sections, though that was overwhelmingly the case from Haydn up to Tchakovsky or so. Are you sure Tchaik wanted alto trombone? Generally, my impression is that alto trombone went out of fashion towards the end of the 19th cent. (replaced by a tenor). It seems to be only recently that alto trombone is re-emerging in mainstream professional orchestras. Before that, even alto parts were usually played on tenors. Yes, it is fairly recently that alto has come back into use, as part of the performance practice movement to recapture the original sounds (at least in part). Rotary valve trumpets, with their very different leadpipe dimensions, are another example. But one must keep in mind that even the tenor trombones were small bore (aka pea-shooter). My father bought me a used early-20th century tenor when I was in high school in the '50s (when you had to be careful that you didn't get stuck with a high-pitch used band instrument!). The large 8-H and 88-H Conns and equivalent makes with half-inch or more bores didn't exist until, I think, the mid-20th century. Conn was certainly making Eb altos in the mid-1960s, when I got mine. John -- John Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] orchestra parts
On Jun 21, 2006, at 3:52 PM, Andrew Stiller wrote: Orchestra parts, printed 2-up as booklets on folded double sheets. Q: should the booklet be center-stapled, or left as loose sheets? According to MOLA, stapled or saddle-stiched, not loose. They also accept tape binding. Christopher ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] orchestra parts
Orchestra parts, printed 2-up as booklets on folded double sheets. Q: should the booklet be center-stapled, or left as loose sheets? Andrew Stiller Kallisti Music Press http://home.netcom.com/~kallisti/ I much prefer center-stapled. The only upside for loose sheets is a little less work for you, at the cost of a less convenient and somewhat less stable part for the performer. BTW, I find that going through and creasing each individual page along the fold helps a lot to keep the part relatively flat. Now if I can just find a long-throw stapler that produces staples with flat legs instead of curved... Lee Actor Composer-in-Residence and Assistant Conductor, Palo Alto Philharmonic http://www.leeactor.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] orchestra parts
Andrew Stiller wrote: Orchestra parts, printed 2-up as booklets on folded double sheets. Q: should the booklet be center-stapled, or left as loose sheets? My vote would be for stapled -- that way it would take a real idiot to lose the center pages. Knowing you as I do from this list, I know your page turns will be proper, so there should be no need for a musician to pull the pages apart for easier reading. -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] orchestra parts
At 3:52 PM -0400 6/21/06, Andrew Stiller wrote: Orchestra parts, printed 2-up as booklets on folded double sheets. Q: should the booklet be center-stapled, or left as loose sheets? Please, center-stapled, preferably with 2 staples. Of course that means working in multiples of 4 pages, with blank pages, if any, at the back of the booklet. Loose sheets work, but present more possibilities of mixups. John -- John Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: trombone clefs
On Jun 21, 2006, at 2:46 PM, Robert Patterson wrote: Personally, I like alto trombone very much. My latest orch. piece used alto/ten/bass rather than the (now) more standard tenor 1/2, bass. Fortunately the player has and enjoys playing an alto trombone. After hearing it, I will probably rescore a few passages for tenor, though. Alto trombone can't achieve the dark tenor sound, which is great unless you want the dark tenor sound. And of course, in the 20th-21st centuries, tenor trombone really means tenor-bass trombone, w. a trigger. I know a lot of first-trombonists prefer the old simplex tenor, because it is lighter in weight and 1st trb. parts almost never need the trigger, but it seems to me that most composers these days assume that even the first trombone can and will play down to low C, not to mention the pedals. FWIW, at the time I wrote my book, the alto trombone was completely out of the picture, though a handful of European trombonists were still using them (same thing applies to cl. in C, wh is also now making a comeback). At the other end of the scale, I have never been impressed by the timbre difference betw. T-B trombone and bass trombone, and I don't write for it specifically unless I need the low B natural. For the same reason, though, it doesn't bother me at all if a Btrb plays a 3d trb. part, and I'm sure that are some that implicitly expect a bass trombone there. Another inst. more frequently seen nowadays is the Cbtrb, especially the one in non-transposing F w. 2 or 3 low triggers. Now *there's* an instrument that really sounds different from the tenor trombone, and to me the ideal trb. section (for new works, of course) would be 2 trb and 1 cbtrb. An interesting case is Berg's 1929 _Three Pieces for Orchestra_. Berg asks for 3 tenors and one bass trombone, but in a footnote to the instrument list, Heinz Erich Apostel says that the first trombone part was originally written in alto clef, but changed to tenor clef in the published part w. the composer's blessing. Apostel goes on to say that the part lies so high that it might be better played on an alto trombone or an Eb tenor trumpet--but then at reh. no. 155 Berg asks the first trombone (also the 2d and 3d) to play a louder-than-ff D below the bass staff. Berg specifically expects a Pedalton, but I don't think any trombonist at all these days would play it that way, but would use the F trigger. Meanwhile the bass trombone is asked to play the D below that--the bottom D on the piano. I heard a performance of this w. the Buffalo Philharmonic where the most amazing blat came out there--just what I think Berg wanted; but to get it that loud, the 4th trb. player was using a contrabass trb. for the whole part. Andrew Stiller Kallisti Music Press http://home.netcom.com/~kallisti/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] orchestra parts
On Jun 21, 2006, at 5:06 PM, John Howell wrote: Please, center-stapled, preferably with 2 staples. Of course that means working in multiples of 4 pages, with blank pages, if any, at the back of the booklet. Loose sheets work, but present more possibilities of mixups. It's unanimous for staples, then (just one staple, I think). I was concerned that stapled pages might be harder to turn and flatten out, but if everyone prefers staples, then staples it shall be. Thanx everyone :-) --Andrew ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: trombone clefs
Andrew Stiller wrote: And of course, in the 20th-21st centuries, tenor trombone really means tenor-bass trombone, w. a trigger. I know a lot of first-trombonists prefer the old simplex tenor, because it is lighter in weight and 1st trb. parts almost never need the trigger, but it seems to me that most composers these days assume that even the first trombone can and will play down to low C, not to mention the pedals. This is source of frustration for our first trombonist, who (with justification) believes that contemporary tenor trombone parts routinely are too low. Perhaps this is because we tend to learn it as a bass clef instrument now, even though traditionally it most certainly is not. I have never been impressed by the timbre difference betw. T-B trombone and bass trombone, I think this all is part of the homogification of trombone sound. My preference is a brighter trombone sound easily distingushable from a french horn or euphonium, but (at least a few years ago) all the trombonists seemed to be striving for the same darkness as those other instruments. In that world, large bores and large mouthpieces are the order of the day, and the difference between tenor and bass is completely blurred. But it was not always thus, and the re-emergence of the alto trombone I hope may signal a re-emergence of differentiated trombone sounds in general as an ideal. Yin/yang. In my personal case, my bass trombone part calls for sustained, exposed pedal F's at ppp dynamic. While this note is technically equally possible on the tenor/bass instrument the 2nd player is playing, only the bass trombone player is living his life for the chance to play this note. The difference between the bass and the tenor trombone is as much attitude as it is axe. -- Robert Patterson http://RobertGPatterson.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: trombone clefs
On Jun 21, 2006, at 5:21 PM, Andrew Stiller wrote: On Jun 21, 2006, at 2:46 PM, Robert Patterson wrote: Personally, I like alto trombone very much. My latest orch. piece used alto/ten/bass rather than the (now) more standard tenor 1/2, bass. Fortunately the player has and enjoys playing an alto trombone. After hearing it, I will probably rescore a few passages for tenor, though. Alto trombone can't achieve the dark tenor sound, which is great unless you want the dark tenor sound. And of course, in the 20th-21st centuries, tenor trombone really means tenor-bass trombone, w. a trigger. The addition of a trigger alone does not make the instrument a tenor-bass, as even King 3b's (peashooters) are available with triggers. They are just large-bore tenor trombones, that happen to have an F trigger. The real tenor-bass that is called bass trombone in North America these days has a bore that is larger still, a larger bell, and a much deeper mouthpiece and wider backbore and lead pipe. Almost all modern bass trombones also have a 2nd trigger, but even if it was missing the 2nd trigger (or even a straight horn! I've seen them!) it would still be a bass trombone. I know a lot of first-trombonists prefer the old simplex tenor, because it is lighter in weight and 1st trb. parts almost never need the trigger, but it seems to me that most composers these days assume that even the first trombone can and will play down to low C, not to mention the pedals. They can assume away, but those notes are much warmer, more even and controlled by the bass trombonist, who in addition to the equipment advantage also has spent many hours practicing down there to justify his existence. Those notes tend to be pinched and blatty on the tenor trombone and not nearly as loud, unless the player has freakish chops. At the other end of the scale, I have never been impressed by the timbre difference betw. T-B trombone and bass trombone, and I don't write for it specifically unless I need the low B natural. Don't use it just for that reason, as even a single-trigger player can pull the valve slide out a semitone to play low B. But if the part sits low, use the bass trombonist. Bass trombonists (at least, me!) have worked hard to be able to blend with the tenor trombones when playing mid-range, while bridging the timbre gap with the tuba when playing low. This might account for the lack of a big difference in timbre with tenors. The instrument just sits lower in its range, about a third or fourth lower than the tenor trombone. For the same reason, though, it doesn't bother me at all if a Btrb plays a 3d trb. part, and I'm sure that are some that implicitly expect a bass trombone there. That's exactly right. In the mid register, a bass trombone would be pretty much indistinguishable from a large bore tenor in sound. Below 3rd line D you start to hear much more difference, as that is when the bass trombone sound starts to open up, while the tenor trombone starts to lose projection in comparison. Berg asks the first trombone (also the 2d and 3d) to play a louder-than-ff D below the bass staff. Berg specifically expects a Pedalton, That note WOULD be a pedal tone on an alto trombone. but I don't think any trombonist at all these days would play it that way, but would use the F trigger. Yes, on a tenor trombone only. If the player is used to playing a straight horn, he might have a trigger horn that he would use just for this passage, then pick up his usual instrument when he could. Meanwhile the bass trombone is asked to play the D below that--the bottom D on the piano. I heard a performance of this w. the Buffalo Philharmonic where the most amazing blat came out there--just what I think Berg wanted; but to get it that loud, the 4th trb. player was using a contrabass trb. for the whole part. Yeah, baby! (drools) We bass trombonists usually only get to play those notes in the practice room or in special literature written by trombonists for trombonists. Christopher ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: trombone clefs
On Jun 21, 2006, at 5:45 PM, Robert Patterson wrote: Andrew Stiller wrote: And of course, in the 20th-21st centuries, tenor trombone really means tenor-bass trombone, w. a trigger. I know a lot of first-trombonists prefer the old simplex tenor, because it is lighter in weight and 1st trb. parts almost never need the trigger, but it seems to me that most composers these days assume that even the first trombone can and will play down to low C, not to mention the pedals. This is source of frustration for our first trombonist, who (with justification) believes that contemporary tenor trombone parts routinely are too low. Perhaps this is because we tend to learn it as a bass clef instrument now, even though traditionally it most certainly is not. I think most instruments traditionally sit well written in the staff, and composers assume trombones are the same. For the same reason, I see lots of flute parts that are too low to project well. The tenor trombone sits very well in the staff - if it is reading tenor clef or Bb treble British Band parts. Likewise, alto trombone sits very well in the alto staff. In my personal case, my bass trombone part calls for sustained, exposed pedal F's at ppp dynamic. While this note is technically equally possible on the tenor/bass instrument the 2nd player is playing, only the bass trombone player is living his life for the chance to play this note. The difference between the bass and the tenor trombone is as much attitude as it is axe. Well said. Christopher (we ARE living our lives for that note!) 8-) ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] orchestra parts
Office depot carries the Swingline - long reach- stapler which is ideal for this, i used it and are very happy with it. hope this helps. gr Johannes Gebauer wrote: On 21.06.2006 Lee Actor wrote: Now if I can just find a long-throw stapler that produces staples with flat legs instead of curved... If you ever find one, let me know where, I need one desperately... Johannes ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Kiss Me, Kate books
Andrew Stiller wrote: On Jun 17, 2006, at 10:29 AM, Carl Dershem wrote: Most shows have long stretches of I'd be reading the paper now, but the conductor would get mad, middling stretches of just plain work, and a few instances of let's hope I survive this bit tonight, but they almost always have something associated that's good for stories that last years. Oboist Claire Tindall, in her kiss-and-tell memoir _Mozart in the Jungle_, describes how she memorized her part for _Les Misérables_, and thereafter read books hidden behind her part during performances. Andrew Stiller Kallisti Music Press http://home.netcom.com/~kallisti/ Of course. I have read a lot during the _Nutcracker_ ballet over the years. How much of your brain do you need to play the Waltz of the Flowers a thousand times in your lifetime? Raymond Horton Bass Trombonist Louisville Orchestra ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] trombones and worm cans
Robert Patterson wrote: ... Where are the worms? No worms. This is what I thought was opening the can. I thought I was insulting cellists, but no one went for it, and it turned into a tame thread on clefs instead. Probably no cellists here. Maybe they are to busy practicing: ... RBH wrote. a few days ago: It sounds like cellists are having to know three clefs, instead of just two, and to know treble in two different octaves. Poor kids. When they get to four clefs, treble in two octaves and in Bb, then they'll be caught up to trombonists! _-=-__-=-__-=-__-=-__-=-__-=-_ (Sound of a worm can being opened) RBH ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] trombones
Of course British Brass Bands also don't have the strange additions to the brass band ala the wind section that American bands have. Aznd that strange bass the Sousa ;-) And when we talk British Brass we are actually only pigeon holing it it as this British style of brass band is worldwide. Australia, New Zealand, Europe, UK, Canada etc etc yep even USA. I learned brass at age 7 so not although british schools don't do the basic instrument teaching like USA seeem to some places do. ;-) Steve -Original Message- From: John Howell [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, 21 June 2006 5:25 a.m. To: finale@shsu.edu Subject: Re: [Finale] trombones And aren't the British Brass Band trombones not only in the treble clef but also transposed to Bb like Baritone T.C. in U.S. band music? I believe that's correct. (Which also just happens to make it equivalent to tenor clef!!) But while Steve's comment is quite correct, I'd guess that the number of trombonists in the U.S. who ONLY read Brass Band treble clef can be counted on the fingers of one foot! All beginning school band music has trombones in bass clef. The difference, I think, is that we have school bands almost everywhere as the primary introduction to playing instruments, and the Brits do not. John -- John Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: trombone clefs
Robert Patterson wrote: I don't know of much RECENT music written for alto-tenor-bass orchestra sections, though that was overwhelmingly the case from Haydn up to Tchakovsky or so. Are you sure Tchaik wanted alto trombone? Generally, my impression is that alto trombone went out of fashion towards the end of the 19th cent. (replaced by a tenor). It seems to be only recently that alto trombone is re-emerging in mainstream professional orchestras. Before that, even alto parts were usually played on tenors. Personally, I like alto trombone very much. My latest orch. piece used alto/ten/bass rather than the (now) more standard tenor 1/2, bass. Fortunately the player has and enjoys playing an alto trombone. After hearing it, I will probably rescore a few passages for tenor, though. Alto trombone can't achieve the dark tenor sound, which is great unless you want the dark tenor sound. Getting an alto to get a good trombone sound is difficult, but possible. But you have to find just the right horn, and the right mouthpiece to use with it. cd -- http://www.livejournal.com/users/dershem/# ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: trombone clefs
Robert Patterson wrote: I think this all is part of the homogification of trombone sound. My preference is a brighter trombone sound easily distingushable from a french horn or euphonium, but (at least a few years ago) all the trombonists seemed to be striving for the same darkness as those other instruments. In that world, large bores and large mouthpieces are the order of the day, and the difference between tenor and bass is completely blurred. But it was not always thus, and the re-emergence of the alto trombone I hope may signal a re-emergence of differentiated trombone sounds in general as an ideal. Yin/yang. In my personal case, my bass trombone part calls for sustained, exposed pedal F's at ppp dynamic. While this note is technically equally possible on the tenor/bass instrument the 2nd player is playing, only the bass trombone player is living his life for the chance to play this note. The difference between the bass and the tenor trombone is as much attitude as it is axe. Homogification?? That's a new one. :) We are also talking about orchestral work here. In the jazz world (where I do the vast majority of my work) the trend is not as strongly toward big horns - a 'symhony standard tenor' has a .547 bore, but a lot of jazz players juse that with a .564 trigger attachment for bass 'bone work in big bands any more, and a .500 bore is standard for lead and 2nd 'bone parts. I play 3rd 'bone in a couple of bands and use a .525 bore horn with a trigger, but the Bach 16M and King 3b (bores ranging from .500 to .509) are almost the default setting for jazz lead. And I use a King 2b Liberty (dual .581/.591 bore) for jazz leads and a lot of small combo work to blend with (usually) 1 sax or a sax and trumpet - the bigger horns would not blend well at all, and the .547 would not be nimble enough to solo on. Homogenization is mostly a theoretical pursuit - orchestras go in one direction, jazz players go another, and the studio cats do whatever they want (if you want to see a wide variety of horns, go to a commercial scoring session some time!) cd -- http://www.livejournal.com/users/dershem/# ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] orchestra parts
Is this a straight long-throw, or a saddle stapler? -Lee Office depot carries the Swingline - long reach- stapler which is ideal for this, i used it and are very happy with it. hope this helps. gr Johannes Gebauer wrote: On 21.06.2006 Lee Actor wrote: Now if I can just find a long-throw stapler that produces staples with flat legs instead of curved... If you ever find one, let me know where, I need one desperately... Johannes ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Tremolos
Exactly 1/2 Jamin Hoffman wrote: Dear all - Is the proper way to represent unmeasured tremolos three slashes across the note, regardless of the value of the note? Thanks - Jamin ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
