Re: [Finale] Hyphenating text underlay

[Mark D Lew]

On Apr 29, 2007, at 2:37 PM, Christopher Smith wrote:

I suppose two syllables in "fire" would be pronounced more or less  
"Fie-yer" with the short "e" sustained, not "Fie-yer" with the  
"r" sustained. It IS sung differently than a melisma would be; "Fah- 
ire". I honestly don't know how to notate the difference.


If I see "fire" written as one syllable, slurred over two or more  
notes of melisma, then I assume the default interpretation is that  
every syllable but the last has the "ah" vowel sound and the last  
includes the entire "ire" sound. A clear example of this is the long  
melisma in #5 of Handel's Messiah, "and the desi-i-i-i-i-i-ire of all  
nations shall come".  This is consistent with what basic "correct"  
choral diction would dictate for any diphthong.  It would sound  
ludicrous to sing the final syllable of the melisma on a sustained  
"errr" sound, and I can't imagine anyone, not even an unschooled  
singer, would think to try it.


In other examples where two or more notes are slurred over a single  
syllable of "fire", it does feel natural to make the first syllable  
"fye" and sing a sustained "er" over the second (so that it rhymes  
with "buyer").  An example of this is the first line of the 1940s  
song, "I don't want to set the world on fire".  Absent any tradition  
of how one has heard it sung before, I would guess that some singers  
would choose to sing "fire" like "fye-er" but some others would sing  
it as a single syllable like in the first example.


For this particular song, my personal choice would be to sing it like  
"fye-er".  I think it's what the composer intended, and it's  
consistent with the style in which I would sing this song, which is a  
more colloquial pronunciation not at all like proper choral diction.   
Nevertheless, if I were editing the song I would not actually write  
out "fire" as two syllables.  (Nor would I write "want to" as  
"wanna", even though I would surely sing it that way.) I would rather  
leave those choices for each singer's styling and instincts, and if  
some other singers choose to sing "fire" differently, so be it. As we  
all know from numerous examples, the same song can be successfully  
interpreted in drastically different styles and for someone else  
singing in a different style my two-syllable interpretation of "fye- 
er" might sound ridiculous.


I tend to believe a similar argument is going to cover almost any  
situation. Even if you intend "fire" to be sung as two syllables, you  
can notate it as one and leave it to the singer's instincts to agree  
or not agree.  But I tend to like to give performers freedom to  
interpret, and I know that not all composers are like that, so I can  
see that a case might arise where one really does want to explicitly  
indicate two syllable.


Also, you might have a case where you really want to emphasize a  
certain rhythm.  Suppose you're setting syllables in a steady pattern  
of eighth notes, but to continue the pattern properly you want "fire"  
on two eighth notes.  If those two eighth notes are on the same note,  
it won't do at all to make it a quarter note because that would  
suggest a distinct change in the rhythm. You could slur the two  
eighth notes together anyway, and put "fire" as a single syllable  
below. That might communicate the idea, but for such a case I think  
you'd rather indicate the two syllables more explicitly.


So supposing you really do need to write "fire" as two syllables, how  
do you do it?


I've seen it written as "fi-re".  I can't think of an example off the  
top of my head, but I'm sure I've seen it more than once, and I'm  
pretty sure at least one was in a well-established score (something  
G&S maybe?)  It's an imperfect solution, but I think it's  
understandable in context, none of the alternatives are perfect  
either, and there seems to be at least some tradition for it, so I  
would be comfortable using it if I ever faced the situation.


It's not that much different from hyphenating "i-ron" and expecting  
it to be sung as "eye-urn".


Side note:  Personally, I pronounce "i-ron" like "eye-ruhn" even in  
ordinary speech, and it is a source of ongoing amusement to my wife  
to point out that everyone else in the world says "eye-urn".  Surely  
I'm not the only one.  Does anyone else out there say "eye-ruhn"?


I also pronounce "comfortable" as four syllable, more or less as  
written. That one my wife says the same as I do, but we're in the  
minority against those who say is as three syllables like "comf-ter- 
ble".  Now there's an interesting puzzle.  Suppose your lyric has  
"comfortable" and you want it to be sung in the common way on three  
syllables, how would you spell/hyphenate that?


There's a local ad on TV here with a jingle that ends with something  
like "for a reasonable price", but "reasonable" is sung like "reez- 
nuh-ble", with each of the first two syllables held over a long note.  
It doesn't bother me, 

Re: [Finale] should we expect another upgrade?

[Mark D Lew]

On Apr 29, 2007, at 12:49 PM, Andrew Stiller wrote:

In the Expression menu,  turn on Context Sensitive. Then when you  
use an expression metatool with the cursor placed directly on or  
below the note, a note expression will be placed. With any other  
cursor position, a measure expression will appear--on all staves.


Christopher is right, I did know that. I must have Context Sensitive  
turned on, because that's how all my expression metatools behave. I  
think of that as normal behavior, and I had forgotten that it was  
even possible to specify anything else, but now that you mention it,  
I do have a vague memory of turning Context Sensitive on once upon a  
time.  But since I so rarely use metatools for expressions, it  
doesn't come up.


mdl
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Re: [Finale] Hyphenating text underlay

[dhbailey]

Darcy James Argue wrote:
One really great assignments we had at NEC was to transcribe vocal and 
instrumental versions of the same song, including the accompaniment. The 
goal here was, in fact, to make the vocal transcription as exact as 
possible -- not as something you'd ever give to a singer, but as a 
written document of the recording.


I compared the Frank Sinatra and Keith Jarrett recordings of "In The Wee 
Small Hours of the Morning." I admit that I was stunned at how closely 
Keith's phrasing of the melody resembled Frank's -- I don't think most 
people would ever think of Frank Sinatra as an influence on Keith Jarrett.




That's an interesting statement -- I would think just the opposite: 
That there would be very few jazz musicians of the later half of the 
20th century who *weren't* influenced by Sinatra.


--
David H. Bailey
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: [Finale] should we expect another upgrade?

[Lawrence David Eden]

I use meta-tool created expressions all the time...for note attached 
and for measure attached expressions.
I have a staff list defined that shows the measure attached 
expressions once in the score and on every extracted part.

I am using FinMac 2k3.  Did behavior of the program change with later versions?





On Apr 29, 2007, at 3:49 PM, Andrew Stiller wrote:



 On Apr 28, 2007, at 3:40 AM, Mark D Lew wrote:

  I can't figure out how to use a metatool for an expression and 
not have it show up on every staff.  I don't see a place to define 
that.  What am I missing?


 I can't believe that for all the zillions of replies Mark's query 
generated, nobody every bothered to answer this question. The 
answer is this:


Hey, don't be so hard on us! We DID answer it: you can't define 
staff lists with measure expressions entered as metatools. You have 
to use note expressions. Mark knew how to change types.


Now your info about TG Tools was very good. But I hadn't omitted 
that because I didn't bother, I omitted it because I didn't KNOW 
that.


Christopher



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Re: [Finale] should we expect another upgrade?

[Aaron Sherber]

At 06:56 AM 4/30/2007, Lawrence David Eden wrote:
>I use meta-tool created expressions all the time...for note attached
>and for measure attached expressions.
>I have a staff list defined that shows the measure attached
>expressions once in the score and on every extracted part.
>I am using FinMac 2k3.  Did behavior of the program change with 
later versions?


No. The point was that you can't define a staff list as a *default* 
when entering measure expressions. When you place a measure 
expression with a metatool, it shows up on all staves. You then have 
to specifically enter the assignment dialog if you want either a 
staff list or "this staff only".


Aaron.

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Re: [Finale] Test of a PDF on Mac

[Christopher Smith]

On Apr 29, 2007, at 10:59 PM, David W. Fenton wrote:


A Mac user tells me this PDF:

http://www.dfenton.com/Collegium/Scores/Gibbons-LordGrantGrace.pdf

shows up with weird characters. Generally, I've had no troubles
getting PDFs to her via my website, but this has happened once
before. She said it was some problem with the rests of something
(granted, it's a first draft, without proper editing -- I'm arranging
a 7-part texture for playing by five viols).

Are Mac users seeing proper noteheads/rests?



In Preview it looks fine to me. In Adobe Reader there is the usual on- 
screen weirdness of thick and thin staff lines, but that is onscreen  
only.


What version of Adobe Reader is she using? I understand older  
versions won't read PDF files correctly all the time.


Another issue, did you create this PDF file on a computer other than  
the one that the Finale file was created on? There might be font  
issues if the version of the Finale fonts is not exactly the same.


Christopher


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Re: [Finale] Hyphenating text underlay

[Christopher Smith]

On Apr 30, 2007, at 6:19 AM, dhbailey wrote:


Darcy James Argue wrote:


I compared the Frank Sinatra and Keith Jarrett recordings of "In  
The Wee Small Hours of the Morning." I admit that I was stunned at  
how closely Keith's phrasing of the melody resembled Frank's -- I  
don't think most people would ever think of Frank Sinatra as an  
influence on Keith Jarrett.


That's an interesting statement -- I would think just the opposite:  
That there would be very few jazz musicians of the later half of  
the 20th century who *weren't* influenced by Sinatra.



Heh, heh, now we're into interesting territory. I have heard many  
jazz musicians (particularly black American jazz musicians) criticise  
a phrasing of a melody by saying it was too "Frank Sinatra." I  
suppose avoiding sounding like something is being influenced by it,  
so you may be very right.


Christopher



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Re: [Finale] Hyphenating text underlay

[Christopher Smith]

Mark,

Thanks for the extensive comments on hyphenation when the  
pronounciation doesn't reflect the syllabification.




On Apr 30, 2007, at 3:36 AM, Mark D Lew wrote:

Side note:  Personally, I pronounce "i-ron" like "eye-ruhn" even in  
ordinary speech, and it is a source of ongoing amusement to my wife  
to point out that everyone else in the world says "eye-urn".   
Surely I'm not the only one.  Does anyone else out there say "eye- 
ruhn"?




Not me, but you are talking to a guy who pronounced the "w" in  
"sword" and said "ay-zell" for "aisle" until he was thirteen. And  
more embarrassingly, I never knew the "l" in "balked" was silent  
until this year, when a student corrected me. That's what comes of  
reading to acquire vocabulary, instead of talking to people.


However, everyone in my region when I started school pronounced "oat"  
and "out" identically, and "taking a turn about in a boat" or "going  
out to the outhouse" was "taking a turn aboat in a boat" and "going  
oat to the oathoase", so there is some allowance for local  
pronunciation.



I also pronounce "comfortable" as four syllable, more or less as  
written. That one my wife says the same as I do, but we're in the  
minority against those who say is as three syllables like "comf-ter- 
ble".  Now there's an interesting puzzle.  Suppose your lyric has  
"comfortable" and you want it to be sung in the common way on three  
syllables, how would you spell/hyphenate that?


I dunno, but maybe "comf-ter-ble" isn't so bad, or maybe "comf'-ter- 
ble" with the apostrophe to allow for the missing syllable. Flipping  
idly through the score to Porgy and Bess and Oklahoma, I see all  
kinds of respellings like this to convey a dialect. We also spell out  
numbers, like "Forty-seven", when they show up in lyrics, even though  
it is perfectly permissible to write them in text as "47".


Christopher


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Re: [Finale] Hyphenating text underlay

[dhbailey]

Christopher Smith wrote:


On Apr 30, 2007, at 6:19 AM, dhbailey wrote:


Darcy James Argue wrote:


I compared the Frank Sinatra and Keith Jarrett recordings of "In The 
Wee Small Hours of the Morning." I admit that I was stunned at how 
closely Keith's phrasing of the melody resembled Frank's -- I don't 
think most people would ever think of Frank Sinatra as an influence 
on Keith Jarrett.


That's an interesting statement -- I would think just the opposite: 
That there would be very few jazz musicians of the later half of the 
20th century who *weren't* influenced by Sinatra.



Heh, heh, now we're into interesting territory. I have heard many jazz 
musicians (particularly black American jazz musicians) criticise a 
phrasing of a melody by saying it was too "Frank Sinatra." I suppose 
avoiding sounding like something is being influenced by it, so you may 
be very right.




And also such statements need to be taken with a grain of salt because 
often people will deride something which is very popular as not possibly 
being artistic simply by its very popularity and treat such things with 
disdain, while secretly wishing they could reach as many people as the 
artist they cite in a derogatory manner.


As you say, negative influence (trying not to sound like a particular 
artist) is as much influence as positive influence (trying to emulate a 
particular artist.)


--
David H. Bailey
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: [Finale] Hyphenating text underlay

[John Howell]

At 3:56 PM -0400 4/29/07, dhbailey wrote:

Christopher Smith wrote:


On Apr 29, 2007, at 3:39 PM, Andrew Stiller wrote:
You don't say what your hyphenation solution is for "fire", though. 
I have simply put it in as a melisma, but admittedly it won't be 
sung the same as if was split to two syllables.


"Fi-re"? Any other solution?



This is where the composer/arranger takes a leap of faith that the 
performer will understand what is meant.  All notation is imprecise 
to a point, and some notation is more imprecise than others.


I wouldn't hyphenate "fi- re" for the same reason that I wouldn't 
hyphenate against dictionary hyphenation in general.  I would trust 
that the person in charge of the music would understand that if the 
word isn't broken into two syllables, the note(s) which go with the 
're' part of the word would not be heard clearly


OK, there's an up tempo madrigal that starts "Fi-re, fi-re" at some 
length.  Two syllables, two notes.  You may not like it, but it has 
to be done.



(it's hard to project when singing an 'rr' sound).


On the contrary, "r" IS a vowel, the ONLY vowel in "girl," "bird," or 
"heard."  (That is to say, since it's easy to get tangled up in 
semantics, it is a phonated sound that can be sustained.)  The 
written vowels are effectively mute.  It is a BETTER vowel (better 
sound quality) if it is formed by keeping the tongue low in the mouth 
and lifting the two outside edges up to touch the upper teeth, than 
if it is formed by raising the middle of the tongue to the soft 
palate, but it functions as a vowel, and if it quacks like a duck, 
etc., etc.


John


--
John & Susie Howell
Virginia Tech Department of Music
Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240
Vox (540) 231-8411  Fax (540) 231-5034
(mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED])
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[Finale] OT: Music in the stones of Rosslyn Chapel?

[Michael Cook]

For those interested in supposed secret codes and other zany stuff.  
As reported by the BBC:


"A father and son team from Edinburgh think they have found a secret  
piece of music hidden in carvings at a famous medieval chapel in  
Midlothian. Stuart Mitchell, 41 and his father Tommy, 75, said they  
had deciphered a musical code locked in the stones of Rosslyn Chapel  
for more than 500 years."


Do we have any specialist of 15th century music on the list to debunk  
these nutcases?


Just go and have a look at their site, or watch the YouTube video.  
What do you think of the music? Does it sound like something from the  
fifteenth century? And what makes the Mitchells think that the  
musical staff held by the "stave angel" (see towards end of YouTube  
video) should be assumed to have a treble clef?


Their site:

http://www.tjmitchell.com/stuart/rosslyn.html

YouTube video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cy2Dg-ncWoY

Enjoy,

Michael
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Re: [Finale] OT: Music in the stones of Rosslyn Chapel?

[Barbara Touburg]

There's more at .


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Re: [Finale] Test of a PDF on Mac

[Andrew Stiller]

On Apr 29, 2007, at 10:59 PM, David W. Fenton wrote:


A Mac user tells me this PDF:

http://www.dfenton.com/Collegium/Scores/Gibbons-LordGrantGrace.pdf

shows up with weird characters.



Are Mac users seeing proper noteheads/rests?



No. All  symbols (including the title) show up as rectangles. Clearly 
some kind of font problem.


Andrew Stiller
Kallisti Music Press
http://www.kallistimusic.com/

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Re: [Finale] Hyphenating text underlay

[John Howell]

At 1:12 AM -0400 4/30/07, Darcy James Argue wrote:
One really great assignments we had at NEC was to transcribe vocal 
and instrumental versions of the same song, including the 
accompaniment. The goal here was, in fact, to make the vocal 
transcription as exact as possible -- not as something you'd ever 
give to a singer, but as a written document of the recording.


So, how DID you handle the spread-out and separated phonemes in the lyrics?

John


--
John & Susie Howell
Virginia Tech Department of Music
Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240
Vox (540) 231-8411  Fax (540) 231-5034
(mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED])
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Re: [Finale] Hyphenating text underlay

[Andrew Stiller]

On Apr 30, 2007, at 3:36 AM, Mark D Lew wrote:

A clear example of this is the long melisma in #5 of Handel's Messiah, 
"and the desi-i-i-i-i-i-ire of all nations shall come".  This is 
consistent with what basic "correct" choral diction would dictate for 
any diphthong.


Is this that same _Messiah_ that has "Sing ye comfortobbly to 
Jerusalem" and "the dead shall be raised, raised incorruptibble"?


Sorry, couldn't resist. However: my original point is that -ire is very 
frequently *not* treated as a diphthong in English poetry, but as two 
quite distinct syllables. Musically, this would not be a melisma, and 
IMO should not be notated as one.


--Andrew

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Re: [Finale] Hyphenating text underlay

[Andrew Stiller]

On Apr 30, 2007, at 6:19 AM, dhbailey wrote:

Darcy James Argue wrote:


I compared the Frank Sinatra and Keith Jarrett recordings of "In 
The Wee Small Hours of the Morning." I admit that I was stunned at 
how closely Keith's phrasing of the melody resembled Frank's -- I 
don't think most people would ever think of Frank Sinatra as an 
influence on Keith Jarrett.


That's an interesting statement -- I would think just the opposite: 
That there would be very few jazz musicians of the later half of the 
20th century who *weren't* influenced by Sinatra.
Heh, heh, now we're into interesting territory. I have heard many 
jazz musicians (particularly black American jazz musicians) criticise 
a phrasing of a melody by saying it was too "Frank Sinatra." I 
suppose avoiding sounding like something is being influenced by it, 
so you may be very right.


To me, Frank Sinatra was not a jazz musician at all: he was a 
tin-pan-alley crooner, one of the last of them.  It's true that people 
used to use "jazz" to refer to any type of modern American popular 
music--but that hasn't been the case for fifty or more years now!


Andrew Stiller
Kallisti Music Press
http://www.kallistimusic.com/

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Re: [Finale] Test of a PDF on Mac

[Mark D Lew]

On Apr 30, 2007, at 9:23 AM, Andrew Stiller wrote:

[answering David Fenton's PDF query]

No. All  symbols (including the title) show up as rectangles.  
Clearly some kind of font problem.


It looks fine on mine.  I would guess that there's some sort of font  
embedding issue whereby most methods of PDF viewing still read it  
fine but a few are tripped up by it and can't find the right fonts.


mdl 
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Re: [Finale] should we expect another upgrade?

[shirling & neueweise]

At 15:49 -0400 4/29/07, Andrew Stiller wrote:
I can't believe that for all the zillions of replies Mark's query 
generated, nobody every bothered to answer this question.


like this?

At 13:32 +0200 4/28/07, shirling & neueweise wrote:

attach it to the note. (expression menu: context-sensitive or note-attached).


--

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Re: [Finale] Hyphenating text underlay

[shirling & neueweise]

At 00:36 -0700 4/30/07, Mark D Lew wrote:
Suppose your lyric has "comfortable" and you want it to be sung in 
the common way on three syllables, how would you spell/hyphenate 
that?


darn com-fy

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Re: [Finale] Test of a PDF on Mac

[shirling & neueweise]

if you are using special fonts, make sure they are getting embedded; 
if the end user doesn't have the fonts installed they won't be able 
to read the doc properly.


i opened the PDF document properties to see the fonts it contains... 
very strange, i'll send you an attachment separately. there are no 
recognizable finale fonts or text fonts.


maybe do a data check to check doc fonts against systems fonts.

--

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Re: [Finale] Hyphenating text underlay

[Christopher Smith]

On 30-Apr-07, at 1:05 PM, shirling & neueweise wrote:



At 00:36 -0700 4/30/07, Mark D Lew wrote:
Suppose your lyric has "comfortable" and you want it to be sung in  
the common way on three syllables, how would you spell/hyphenate  
that?


darn com-fy



That would be "damned com-fy."

And in four syllables it would be "damn-èd com-fy."

8-)

C.



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Re: [Finale] Hyphenating text underlay

[Darcy James Argue]

I didn't get all the way down to the phoneme level, but I did try to  
precisely notate Frank's rhythms and phrasing, which was very  
challenging.


Cheers,

- Darcy
-
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Brooklyn, NY



On 30 Apr 2007, at 12:29 PM, John Howell wrote:


At 1:12 AM -0400 4/30/07, Darcy James Argue wrote:
One really great assignments we had at NEC was to transcribe vocal  
and instrumental versions of the same song, including the  
accompaniment. The goal here was, in fact, to make the vocal  
transcription as exact as possible -- not as something you'd ever  
give to a singer, but as a written document of the recording.


So, how DID you handle the spread-out and separated phonemes in the  
lyrics?


John


--
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Virginia Tech Department of Music
Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240
Vox (540) 231-8411  Fax (540) 231-5034
(mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED])
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Re: [Finale] Hyphenating text underlay

[shirling & neueweise]

And in four syllables it would be "damn-èd com-fy."


but if you write it dam-ned there would be no 
need for the stress accent, which will only 
confuse most english-speaking singers, especially 
if they know a little bit of french and would 
expect an accent aigu instead of grave at this 
point in the word.  otherwise, to indicate grave 
instead of aigu pronunciation, you would be best 
to add a silent -e following the final consonant. 
however, separating the -mn construction could 
lead to confusion - as mark d. has so 
convincingly pointed out (thanks for the repost, 
c.s.).


so, i guess the choices, depending on context of 
course - sprechstimme vs. precisely notated 
pitches; slang vs. "proper" english; 
dialect/regional considerations; broadway vs. 
"classical" stage performance - are:


- dam-ned
- damn-ède

we are still no closer to a concensus on this 
despite having already wasted a not negligible 
amount of time on the issue.


--

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Re: [Finale] Hyphenating text underlay

[John Howell]

At 12:36 PM -0400 4/30/07, Andrew Stiller wrote:

On Apr 30, 2007, at 6:19 AM, dhbailey wrote:

Darcy James Argue wrote:


I compared the Frank Sinatra and Keith Jarrett recordings of "In 
The Wee Small Hours of the Morning." I admit that I was stunned 
at how closely Keith's phrasing of the melody resembled Frank's 
-- I don't think most people would ever think of Frank Sinatra 
as an influence on Keith Jarrett.


That's an interesting statement -- I would think just the 
opposite: That there would be very few jazz musicians of the 
later half of the 20th century who *weren't* influenced by 
Sinatra.
Heh, heh, now we're into interesting territory. I have heard many 
jazz musicians (particularly black American jazz musicians) 
criticise a phrasing of a melody by saying it was too "Frank 
Sinatra." I suppose avoiding sounding like something is being 
influenced by it, so you may be very right.


To me, Frank Sinatra was not a jazz musician at all: he was a 
tin-pan-alley crooner, one of the last of them.  It's true that 
people used to use "jazz" to refer to any type of modern American 
popular music--but that hasn't been the case for fifty or more years 
now!


Andrew's point is a good one.  "Jazz" itself lacks a rigorous 
definition aside from, "I know it when I hear it"!


Is it a STYLE, or is it a PRACTICE.  Does a vocalist have to do scat 
to qualify as a jazz vocalist?  Is a big band chart in perfect jazz 
style but with no provision for improv solos a "real" jazz chart? 
I'm asking, not arguing.  But just to be clear, to me it is a style.


I got quite a shock when, at the end of one semester (when we still 
had an active and growing instrumental and vocal jazz program that 
subsequently disappeared overnight in a round of budget cuts), I 
asked our vocal jazz person to speak to my Choral Lit class about the 
history of vocal jazz in America.  Wow!  She not only invoked 
everyone from Sinatra and Bing Crosby and the Mills Brothers and 
Andrews Sisters as "jazz" vocalists, but also invoked singers about 
whom I had never heard, never read, and never even heard of.  Bessie 
Smith and Billie Holiday I know about, but not the people she was 
naming.  Yes, in her mind (which means in the minds of the professors 
at Miami where she got her Jazz degree), ALL of American popular 
music was and is a subset of jazz!!


Well, I'm old enough to have lived through quite a bit of the 
developmental years, and that certainly wasn't the way *I* saw 
things!  To me the opposite is true, and jazz is an important but 
rather small subset (on a par with classical music, to judge by the 
Grammy categories) of American popular music.  I was singing "vocal 
jazz" back in the late '50s before anybody had come up with the term 
"vocal jazz," but as just one style that fit certain kinds of songs 
while other styles fit others.  And we never did a lick of scat, just 
sang "in the style."  As did the Four Freshmen and (sometimes) the 
Hi-Los.  Seems to me that nowadays vocal jazz is so tightly 
circumscribed by its own rules and regulations that if you don't do 
it in the One True and Pure Way you'll get put down.  So much for an 
art form that's supposed to leave the performer free of artificial 
restrictions!!!


Got to go give a Quiz.  Talk to you later.

John


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Re: [Finale] Hyphenating text underlay

[Christopher Smith]

On 30-Apr-07, at 3:24 PM, shirling & neueweise wrote:



so, i guess the choices, depending on context of course -  
sprechstimme vs. precisely notated pitches; slang vs. "proper"  
english; dialect/regional considerations; broadway vs. "classical"  
stage performance - are:


- dam-ned
- damn-ède

we are still no closer to a concensus on this despite having  
already wasted a not negligible amount of time on the issue.



Man, if you ever got a couple of drinks into you, we could just pull  
up chairs and watch and listen and have ourselves a full evening's  
entertainment! 8-)


Remind me to invite you to my next party...

Christopher



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Re: [Finale] Hyphenating text underlay

[Dean M. Estabrook]

On Apr 29, 2007, at 4:24 PM, John Howell wrote:

Madeleine Marshall informs, "Never sing "r" before a consonant. (p.  
9) So, she would have the singers pronounce  bird as" b[3]d." I.e.,  
she would maintain that the ONLY vowel in said example is [3], and  
that the "r" sound does not exist.  This approach has worked fine  
with all my choirs.


Dean



On the contrary, "r" IS a vowel, the ONLY vowel in "girl," "bird,"  
or "heard."  (That is to say, since it's easy to get tangled up in  
semantics, it is a phonated sound that can be sustained.)  The  
written vowels are effectively mute.  It is a BETTER vowel (better  
sound quality) if it is formed by keeping the tongue low in the  
mouth and lifting the two outside edges up to touch the upper  
teeth, than if it is formed by raising the middle of the tongue to  
the soft palate, but it functions as a vowel, and if it quacks like  
a duck, etc., etc.


John


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Virginia Tech Department of Music
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Vox (540) 231-8411  Fax (540) 231-5034
(mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED])
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Dean M. Estabrook
http://deanestabrook.googlepages.com/home

Of all hoaxes, the one which is my most vexing bête noire on a  
quotidian basis, is the cereal box top which informs  simply,   
"Lift Tab to Open."  Then, "To Close, Insert Tab Here ." Yeah,  
right! In attempting to accomplish the first direction, not only  
the tab but also the slit intended to accept the aforementioned  
protuberance  have both been irreparably  disfigured and rendered  
dysfunctional.  This debacle is then amplified by the misbehavior  
of the recalcitrant inner bag, which can not be unsealed sans  
mangling it, and hence, will not disperse its contents without  
exiting the box itself. All I wanted was a bowl of cereal.







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Re: [Finale] Hyphenating text underlay

[Christopher Smith]

On 30-Apr-07, at 3:40 PM, John Howell wrote:



Andrew's point is a good one.  "Jazz" itself lacks a rigorous  
definition aside from, "I know it when I hear it"!


Is it a STYLE, or is it a PRACTICE.  Does a vocalist have to do  
scat to qualify as a jazz vocalist?  Is a big band chart in perfect  
jazz style but with no provision for improv solos a "real" jazz  
chart? I'm asking, not arguing.  But just to be clear, to me it is  
a style.





Some jazz musicians (not me!) would argue that any singer who doesn't  
participate in the "jazz process" is not a jazz singer. This usually  
means they need to scat, or at least to improvise interesting  
phrasing. Since so many singers sing "Route 66" pretty much the same  
way Natalie Cole sings it and proclaim themselves to be jazz singers,  
I understand the resistance. About the only singer I hear who  
participates in the jazz process at the same level as most  
instrumentalists do is Curt (or is it Kurt?) Elling, so that leaves  
out almost everybody else.



Yes, in her mind (which means in the minds of the professors at  
Miami where she got her Jazz degree), ALL of American popular music  
was and is a subset of jazz!!




Well, you have to admit, the vocabulary IS very similar, as is the  
technique and repertoire as well as the general approach. Also, early  
on in the history of jazz, there wasn't much of a distinction made  
between jazz and popular music, in fact, jazz WAS popular!


I try to keep the meaning of jazz to be as large as possible. That's  
not to say that I enjoy all jazz-derived music, but that is more a  
matter of taste than of philosophy or formation.




So much for an art form that's supposed to leave the performer free  
of artificial restrictions!!!


Huh? Who told you that? Jazz is very restricted, though I wouldn't  
say the restrictions are artificial. It is also very free, though you  
can't do just anything. In jazz as in all art, and in politics and  
life in general, more freedom means more responsibility, which means  
restrictions.


That being said, I don't care for the "jazz police" mentality. I  
routinely laugh back at anyone who says "that's not jazz!" Who really  
cares, except for the record stores who have to keep things in bins  
by style, and the Grammys?


Christopher



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Re: [Finale] Hyphenating text underlay

[Mark D Lew]

>but if you write it dam-ned there would be no 
>need for the stress accent, which will only 
>confuse most english-speaking singers, especially 
>if they know a little bit of french and would 
>expect an accent aigu instead of grave at this 
>point in the word.  otherwise, to indicate grave 
>instead of aigu pronunciation, you would be best 
>to add a silent -e following the final consonant. 
>however, separating the -mn construction could 
>lead to confusion - as mark d. has so 
>convincingly pointed out (thanks for the repost, 
>c.s.).

It's hard for me to imagine pronouncing "damned" as two syllables, but if ever 
I did encounter it, I think I'd be sorely tempted to hyphenate it "dam-ned".

That's an exception for me, since as a general rule I wouldn't remove a 
consonant from the end of a verb in order to group it with the -ed suffix. But 
I also can't think of any other verb where the final consonant is silent when 
the verb stands alone, but is pronounced when the -ed suffix is added.  To 
spell it "damn-ed" would invite a silent n, which I assume is not what you want.

By the way, I don't see what's wrong with the grave accent.  I see that all the 
time in verse (eg, Shakespeare) to indicate a vowel which might otherwise be 
silent gets its own syllable.

mdl
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Re: [Finale] Hyphenating text underlay

[Mark D Lew]

Andrew Stiller wrote:

>Is this that same _Messiah_ that has "Sing ye comfortobbly to 
>Jerusalem" and "the dead shall be raised, raised incorruptibble"?
>
>Sorry, couldn't resist. However: my original point is that -ire is very 
>frequently *not* treated as a diphthong in English poetry, but as two 
>quite distinct syllables. Musically, this would not be a melisma, and 
>IMO should not be notated as one.

Speaking of Messiahs, there is a curious example in Benjamin Britten's opera 
_Paul Bunyan_.

In the lyric for Johnny Inkslinger's song, Auden rhymes "fire" with "Messiah", 
clearly intending two syllables (though without any American r sound).  Britten 
nevertheless sets "fire" on a single note, and the rhyme is lost.

" It was out in the sticks that the fire
  Of my existence began,
  Where no one had heard The Messiah
  And no one had seen a Cezanne. "

mdl
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Re: [Finale] Hyphenating text underlay

[John Howell]

Well, I don't know IPA, but could you describe 
what you mean by [3] by analogy with other 
standard English words.  Otherwise I can't tell 
what you're suggesting.


John


At 12:38 PM -0700 4/30/07, Dean M. Estabrook wrote:

On Apr 29, 2007, at 4:24 PM, John Howell wrote:

Madeleine Marshall informs, "Never sing "r" 
before a consonant. (p. 9) So, she would have 
the singers pronounce  bird as" b[3]d." I.e., 
she would maintain that the ONLY vowel in said 
example is [3], and that the "r" sound does not 
exist.  This approach has worked fine with all 
my choirs.


Dean


On the contrary, "r" IS a vowel, the ONLY vowel 
in "girl," "bird," or "heard."  (That is to 
say, since it's easy to get tangled up in 
semantics, it is a phonated sound that can be 
sustained.)  The written vowels are effectively 
mute.  It is a BETTER vowel (better sound 
quality) if it is formed by keeping the tongue 
low in the mouth and lifting the two outside 
edges up to touch the upper teeth, than if it 
is formed by raising the middle of the tongue 
to the soft palate, but it functions as a 
vowel, and if it quacks like a duck, etc., etc.


John


--
John & Susie Howell
Virginia Tech Department of Music
Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240
Vox (540) 231-8411  Fax (540) 231-5034
(mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED])
http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html
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Dean M. Estabrook
http://deanestabrook.googlepages.com/home

Of all hoaxes, the one which is my most vexing 
bête noire on a quotidian basis, is the cereal 
box top which informs  simply,  
"Lift Tab to Open."  Then, "To Close, Insert 
Tab Here ." Yeah, right! In attempting to 
accomplish the first direction, not only the 
tab but also the slit intended to accept the 
aforementioned protuberance  have both been 
irreparably  disfigured and rendered 
dysfunctional.  This debacle is then amplified 
by the misbehavior of the recalcitrant inner 
bag, which can not be unsealed sans mangling 
it, and hence, will not disperse its contents 
without exiting the box itself. All I wanted 
was a bowl of cereal.







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--
John & Susie Howell
Virginia Tech Department of Music
Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240
Vox (540) 231-8411  Fax (540) 231-5034
(mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED])
http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html

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Re: [Finale] Hyphenating text underlay

[Dean M. Estabrook]

Good point ... Marshall uses "learn" as the vowel sound model.

Dean

On Apr 30, 2007, at 1:46 PM, John Howell wrote:

Well, I don't know IPA, but could you describe what you mean by [3]  
by analogy with other standard English words.  Otherwise I can't  
tell what you're suggesting.


John


At 12:38 PM -0700 4/30/07, Dean M. Estabrook wrote:

On Apr 29, 2007, at 4:24 PM, John Howell wrote:

Madeleine Marshall informs, "Never sing "r" before a consonant.  
(p. 9) So, she would have the singers pronounce  bird as" b[3]d."  
I.e., she would maintain that the ONLY vowel in said example is  
[3], and that the "r" sound does not exist.  This approach has  
worked fine with all my choirs.


Dean


On the contrary, "r" IS a vowel, the ONLY vowel in "girl,"  
"bird," or "heard."  (That is to say, since it's easy to get  
tangled up in semantics, it is a phonated sound that can be  
sustained.)  The written vowels are effectively mute.  It is a  
BETTER vowel (better sound quality) if it is formed by keeping  
the tongue low in the mouth and lifting the two outside edges up  
to touch the upper teeth, than if it is formed by raising the  
middle of the tongue to the soft palate, but it functions as a  
vowel, and if it quacks like a duck, etc., etc.


John


--
John & Susie Howell
Virginia Tech Department of Music
Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240
Vox (540) 231-8411  Fax (540) 231-5034
(mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED])
http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html
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Dean M. Estabrook
http://deanestabrook.googlepages.com/home

Of all hoaxes, the one which is my most vexing bête noire on a  
quotidian basis, is the cereal box top which informs  simply,   
"Lift Tab to Open."  Then, "To Close, Insert Tab Here ." Yeah,  
right! In attempting to accomplish the first direction, not only  
the tab but also the slit intended to accept the aforementioned  
protuberance  have both been irreparably  disfigured and  
rendered dysfunctional.  This debacle is then amplified by the  
misbehavior of the recalcitrant inner bag, which can not be  
unsealed sans mangling it, and hence, will not disperse its  
contents without exiting the box itself. All I wanted was a bowl  
of cereal.







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--
John & Susie Howell
Virginia Tech Department of Music
Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240
Vox (540) 231-8411  Fax (540) 231-5034
(mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED])
http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html

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Dean M. Estabrook
http://deanestabrook.googlepages.com/home

Of all hoaxes, the one which is my most vexing bête noire on a  
quotidian basis, is the cereal box top which informs  simply,   
"Lift Tab to Open."  Then, "To Close, Insert Tab Here ." Yeah,  
right! In attempting to accomplish the first direction, not only  
the tab but also the slit intended to accept the aforementioned  
protuberance  have both been irreparably  disfigured and rendered  
dysfunctional.  This debacle is then amplified by the misbehavior  
of the recalcitrant inner bag, which can not be unsealed sans  
mangling it, and hence, will not disperse its contents without  
exiting the box itself. All I wanted was a bowl of cereal.







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Re: [Finale] OT: Music in the stones of Rosslyn Chapel?

[John Howell]

At 4:42 PM +0200 4/30/07, Michael Cook wrote:
For those interested in supposed secret codes and other zany stuff. 
As reported by the BBC:


"A father and son team from Edinburgh think they have found a secret 
piece of music hidden in carvings at a famous medieval chapel in 
Midlothian. Stuart Mitchell, 41 and his father Tommy, 75, said they 
had deciphered a musical code locked in the stones of Rosslyn Chapel 
for more than 500 years."


Do we have any specialist of 15th century music on the list to 
debunk these nutcases?


I don't claim to be a specialist, but could forward this to some 
folks on the Early Music List who are if there's enough interest.




Just go and have a look at their site, or watch the YouTube video.


I wish someone could explain about YouTube to me.  Every time I 
follow a link there, it seems to take over my computer and i can't DO 
anything.  I can't even make it stop without forcing my browser to 
quit.  Mostly I get a spinning color wheel, visuals (sometimes) that 
are jerky and not connected to the audio, and no way to tell what I'm 
actually hearing as it seems to jump around at random.  Shesh!!!


What do you think of the music? Does it sound like something from 
the fifteenth century?


Semi-educated opinion:  not in any way, shape or form.  The 
homorhythmic text setting (hymn-style) is like neither early nor late 
15th century sacred music, and totally unlike anything in previous 
centuries, in case anyone cares.  More than anything it's reminiscent 
of the famous secret "Miserere" by Allegri, which stopped being 
secret when the young Mozart heard it and wrote it down.  It's very 
pretty, of course, but it's a modern invention (or composition) much 
like the famous "Adagio" by Albinoni, which was actually composed in 
1958.


And what makes the Mitchells think that the musical staff held by 
the "stave angel" (see towards end of YouTube video) should be 
assumed to have a treble clef?


Actually treble clef would be absolutely the LEAST likely clef to be 
assumed throughout the 15th century, and there is absolutely no way 
to justify that assumption.  They also claim to be using "the 
Pythagorean tuning of the 1400s," which they assuredly are not, and 
which would be awfully late to assume Pythagorean tuning in any case.


It's a con, or an honest obsession, like the Da Vinci code, and the 
"Bach tuning" derived from little squiggles on the title page of the 
WTC.  My opinion only, of course.  I'm sure there are lots of people 
who believe the Da Vinci code is all true, the Shroud of Turnin is 
real, our lives are governed by the placement of the planets, and the 
Air Force has been hiding aliens at Area 51 for decades!


John



Their site:

http://www.tjmitchell.com/stuart/rosslyn.html

YouTube video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cy2Dg-ncWoY

Enjoy,

Michael
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Vox (540) 231-8411  Fax (540) 231-5034
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[Finale] Re: Hyphenating text underlay

[Matthew Hindson fastmail acct]

John Howell wrote:



On the contrary, "r" IS a vowel, the ONLY vowel in "girl," "bird," or 
"heard."  (That is to say, since it's easy to get tangled up in 
semantics, it is a phonated sound that can be sustained.)  The 
written vowels are effectively mute.  


Of course, this is when one is speaking/singing with an American accent. 
 For us that don't actively pronounce the "r" in words, "girl" is 
pronounced with a neutral vowel.  The r isn't heard at all.


Similarly for "fire".  In such occasions it may well be worth 
hyphenating as "fi-re" since heaps of English speakers otherwise won't 
sing it as two syllables, if that is your intention.


Matthew
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Re: [Finale] Hyphenating text underlay

[shirling & neueweise]

Remind me to invite you to my next party...


only if i get mdl as partner...

At 13:25 -0700 4/30/07, Mark D Lew wrote:
It's hard for me to imagine pronouncing "damned" as two syllables, 
but if ever I did encounter it, I think I'd be sorely tempted to 
hyphenate it "dam-ned".


who would make the act even funnier by really believing what i say to 
be serious.


8^)

--

shirling & neueweise ... new music publishers
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] :.../ http://newmusicnotation.com
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Re: [Finale] Hyphenating text underlay

[Matthew Hindson fastmail acct]

Message: 4
Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2007 12:36:49 -0500
From: Robert Patterson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [Finale] Hyphenating text underlay
To: finale@shsu.edu
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed

I should have added that my instictive preference is for dictionary 
hyphenation, but I want to confirm that instinct. So far I haven't read 
any disagreement.




Well, OK, my thoughts on this are that hyphenation should follow how the 
music is sung, i.e. with each note beginning with a consonant, and 
multi-consonants split. "pro-mise" not "prom-ise".  This approach stems 
from my time of singing in a contemporary music choir in which it was 
drummed into us.


Of course this means there are weird hyphenations that just don't seem 
right: "e-xist" or "ex-ist"?  (maybe it's possible to get around it in 
this case since x is really two consonants in one: ks).


I also make an exception for the "ing" suffix, which is what your 
original post is about I think?


As for the statement that it may lead to words initially being 
pronounced incorrectly, I don't know of too many instances in which 
vocal music is sightread in performance anyway.


Altogether that was the approach I took when creating the hyphenation 
dictionary on my website.  Originally it was created for use with Philip 
Aker's auto-hyphenation plugin for Finale, and it's by no means 
finished, but maybe it may be useful for someone.


Matthew
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Re: [Finale] Hyphenating text underlay

[Christopher Smith]

On Apr 30, 2007, at 6:11 PM, Matthew Hindson fastmail acct wrote:



Well, OK, my thoughts on this are that hyphenation should follow  
how the music is sung, i.e. with each note beginning with a  
consonant, and multi-consonants split. "pro-mise" not "prom-ise".   
This approach stems from my time of singing in a contemporary music  
choir in which it was drummed into us.

(snip)


Altogether that was the approach I took when creating the  
hyphenation dictionary on my website.  Originally it was created  
for use with Philip Aker's auto-hyphenation plugin for Finale, and  
it's by no means finished, but maybe it may be useful for someone.




With all due respect to you (and especially with regards to your  
extremely useful harp pedal font!) I don't know how useful I would  
find it if it didn't follow dictionary hyphenation.


Sorry.

Christopher



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Re: [Finale] Test of a PDF on Mac

[David W. Fenton]

On 30 Apr 2007 at 8:03, Christopher Smith wrote:

> On Apr 29, 2007, at 10:59 PM, David W. Fenton wrote:
> 
> > A Mac user tells me this PDF:
> >
> > http://www.dfenton.com/Collegium/Scores/Gibbons-LordGrantGrace.pdf
> >
> > shows up with weird characters. Generally, I've had no troubles
> > getting PDFs to her via my website, but this has happened once
> > before. She said it was some problem with the rests of something
> > (granted, it's a first draft, without proper editing -- I'm
> > arranging a 7-part texture for playing by five viols).
> >
> > Are Mac users seeing proper noteheads/rests?
> 
> In Preview it looks fine to me. In Adobe Reader there is the usual on-
> screen weirdness of thick and thin staff lines, but that is onscreen 
> only.

Strangely, I noticed that the line thickness problem is much worse in 
standalone Adobe reader than it is in the plugin, where the lines 
appear to be much better smoothed (though still not as good as the 
previous version was).

> What version of Adobe Reader is she using? I understand older  
> versions won't read PDF files correctly all the time.

I don't know that she's using Adobe Reader at all, since she's on an 
OS X Mac.

> Another issue, did you create this PDF file on a computer other than 
> the one that the Finale file was created on? There might be font 
> issues if the version of the Finale fonts is not exactly the same.

I created it and made the PDF on my own PC (it was about a 2-hour 
project, most of that being putting in the damned lyrics), just as I 
have many, many times, and sent the same files to her.

In the end, she opened it in Photoshop, which rasterized it and 
allowed her to view it, but I don't know why she wasn't seeing the 
correct stuff otherwise.

-- 
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David Fenton Associates   http://dfenton.com/DFA/

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Re: [Finale] Hyphenating text underlay

[Aaron Rabushka]

As one whose recordings were produced a few clicks from Brno it's easy to
relate to R as vowel. On the other hand, how many syllables would "fire"
have in the "Hot Time in the Old Town Tonight"?

Aaron J. Rabushka
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://users.waymark.net/arabushk
- Original Message - 
From: "John Howell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2007 7:24 PM
Subject: Re: [Finale] Hyphenating text underlay


> At 3:56 PM -0400 4/29/07, dhbailey wrote:
> >Christopher Smith wrote:
> >>
> >>On Apr 29, 2007, at 3:39 PM, Andrew Stiller wrote:
> >>You don't say what your hyphenation solution is for "fire", though.
> >>I have simply put it in as a melisma, but admittedly it won't be
> >>sung the same as if was split to two syllables.
> >>
> >>"Fi-re"? Any other solution?
> >>
> >
> >This is where the composer/arranger takes a leap of faith that the
> >performer will understand what is meant.  All notation is imprecise
> >to a point, and some notation is more imprecise than others.
> >
> >I wouldn't hyphenate "fi- re" for the same reason that I wouldn't
> >hyphenate against dictionary hyphenation in general.  I would trust
> >that the person in charge of the music would understand that if the
> >word isn't broken into two syllables, the note(s) which go with the
> >'re' part of the word would not be heard clearly
>
> OK, there's an up tempo madrigal that starts "Fi-re, fi-re" at some
> length.  Two syllables, two notes.  You may not like it, but it has
> to be done.
>
> >(it's hard to project when singing an 'rr' sound).
>
> On the contrary, "r" IS a vowel, the ONLY vowel in "girl," "bird," or
> "heard."  (That is to say, since it's easy to get tangled up in
> semantics, it is a phonated sound that can be sustained.)  The
> written vowels are effectively mute.  It is a BETTER vowel (better
> sound quality) if it is formed by keeping the tongue low in the mouth
> and lifting the two outside edges up to touch the upper teeth, than
> if it is formed by raising the middle of the tongue to the soft
> palate, but it functions as a vowel, and if it quacks like a duck,
> etc., etc.
>
> John
>
>
> -- 
> John & Susie Howell
> Virginia Tech Department of Music
> Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240
> Vox (540) 231-8411  Fax (540) 231-5034
> (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED])
> http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html
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Re: [Finale] Test of a PDF on Mac

[David W. Fenton]

On 30 Apr 2007 at 9:47, Mark D Lew wrote:

> On Apr 30, 2007, at 9:23 AM, Andrew Stiller wrote:
> 
> [answering David Fenton's PDF query]
> 
> > No. All  symbols (including the title) show up as rectangles. 
> > Clearly some kind of font problem.
> 
> It looks fine on mine.  I would guess that there's some sort of font 
> embedding issue whereby most methods of PDF viewing still read it 
> fine but a few are tripped up by it and can't find the right fonts.

Well, first off, I'm using exactly same templates as I always use for 
PDFs that I've posted to the list and to this particular user, and no 
one has ever told me that there's a problem before, with one 
exception, and that's the person who reported the problem.

Now, I've been distributing PDFs created with PDF995 (which is just a 
wrapper around GhostScript) for years now and have never encountered 
anyone saying there's a problem.

I would note that my Adobe Reader allows me to choose whether or not 
to use local fonts or not. Perhaps if you have that checked it won't 
read the fonts embedded in the PDF?

I've recreated the PDF optimized for portability (the default was 
optimized for speed), and it's here:

http://www.dfenton.com/Collegium/Gibbons/Gibbons-LordGrantGrace2.pdf

I've also processed that file to optimize it for the Web, and the 
result is here:

http://www.dfenton.com/Collegium/Gibbons/Gibbons-LordGrantGrace3.pdf

I see no differences between them, except that the web-optimized file 
is very slightly smaller.

I don't know what version of OS X my correspondent is using, but it 
may be an older one (she's not a techie and depends on her son, an 
Apple employee, to keep her PC up-to-date, but he's not around much 
any more!).

Andrew, what version do you have? And what are you using to view the 
PDF? Preview? Adobe Reader? The Acrobat browser plugin?

-- 
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David Fenton Associates   http://dfenton.com/DFA/

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Re: [Finale] Test of a PDF on Mac

[David W. Fenton]

On 30 Apr 2007 at 19:26, shirling & neueweise wrote:

> if you are using special fonts, make sure they are getting embedded;
> if the end user doesn't have the fonts installed they won't be able to
> read the doc properly.

I'm using no special fonts. The file was created yesterday evening 
from my default WinFin2K3 template. It uses three truetype fonts for 
text (Book Antiqua, a Palatino knockoff, Century Gothic, a knockoff 
of another font whose name I've forgotten, and Joulliard, which is a 
Galliard knockoff, but one I've been using for over 15 years without 
issues!), and the Engraver Wide music font.

> i opened the PDF document properties to see the fonts it contains...
> very strange, i'll send you an attachment separately. there are no
> recognizable finale fonts or text fonts.

That seems pretty obvious to me that all my PDF writer is doing is 
creating embedded font definitions that include only the used 
characters. It would make no sense to embed the whole font by name.

> maybe do a data check to check doc fonts against systems fonts.

Regardless of what you're seeing for the internal font definitions 
within the document, does it display correctly for you? If it does, 
then that's surely not causing a problem.

-- 
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David Fenton Associates   http://dfenton.com/DFA/

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Re: [Finale] Hyphenating text underlay

[David W. Fenton]

On 30 Apr 2007 at 15:40, John Howell wrote:

> Got to go give a Quiz.  Talk to you later.

When I first read this my initial reaction was to feel nervous, 
thinking that you'd said you were giving *us* a quiz! :)

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Re: [Finale] OT: Music in the stones of Rosslyn Chapel?

[David W. Fenton]

On 30 Apr 2007 at 18:04, John Howell wrote:

> It's a con, or an honest obsession, like the Da Vinci code, and the
> "Bach tuning" derived from little squiggles on the title page of the
> WTC.  My opinion only, of course.  I'm sure there are lots of people
> who believe the Da Vinci code is all true, the Shroud of Turnin is
> real, our lives are governed by the placement of the planets, and the
> Air Force has been hiding aliens at Area 51 for decades!

If you read the page that Barbara forwarded, it's pretty clear it's 
the work of lunatics, especially given the "evidence" at the end 
about using A432 and then A440 to get the birth year and death year 
of an individual associated with the chapel. The idea that A440 had 
anything to do with music in the 15th century is ludicrous -- it is 
entirely a modern compromise.

And the idea that a 15th-century staff would start with E at the 
bottom and have C and F both on a space is ludicrous.

This is completely bogus historically, obviously, as is just about 
everything associated with the searchers of the Holy Grail and the 
Knights Templar.

-- 
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Re: [Finale] Test of a PDF on Mac

[Christopher Smith]

On Apr 30, 2007, at 7:10 PM, David W. Fenton wrote:


On 30 Apr 2007 at 8:03, Christopher Smith wrote:


What version of Adobe Reader is she using? I understand older
versions won't read PDF files correctly all the time.


I don't know that she's using Adobe Reader at all, since she's on an
OS X Mac.



Adobe Reader is available for Mac, and I use it when I need the  
special features that Preview doesn't offer (like the Finale  
documentation), plus it sometimes views and prints correctly some  
files that don't read properly in Preview. And sometimes vice-versa!  
Maybe she could try out the newest version.




Another issue, did you create this PDF file on a computer other than
the one that the Finale file was created on? There might be font
issues if the version of the Finale fonts is not exactly the same.


I created it and made the PDF on my own PC (it was about a 2-hour
project, most of that being putting in the damned lyrics), just as I
have many, many times, and sent the same files to her.

In the end, she opened it in Photoshop, which rasterized it and
allowed her to view it, but I don't know why she wasn't seeing the
correct stuff otherwise.


That's weird! Since she was able to view it in Photoshop, that seems  
to indicate that the fonts WERE embedded after all.


I'm stumped, but I am far from an expert on these matters. I hope  
someone can shed some light for you.


Christopher


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Re: [Finale] Test of a PDF on Mac

[Carlberg Jones]

On Apr 29, 2007, at 10:59 PM, David W. Fenton wrote:


A Mac user tells me this PDF:

http://www.dfenton.com/Collegium/Scores/Gibbons-LordGrantGrace.pdf

shows up with weird characters.



Are Mac users seeing proper noteheads/rests?



It all looked perfect on my MacBook Pro, OS 10.4.9, FinMac 2k7 installed.
--

Carlberg Jones
Skype - carlbergbmug
Cornista - Orq. Sin. de Aguascalientes
Aguascalientes, Ags.
MEXICO
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Re: [Finale] Test of a PDF on Mac

[shirling & neueweise]

That seems pretty obvious to me that all my PDF writer is doing is
creating embedded font definitions that include only the used
characters. It would make no sense to embed the whole font by name.


it doesn't make any sense to me; usually this is what appears when i 
check my own PDFs: a list of all the embedded (all music fonts + text 
fonts i know the user won't have) and non-embedded fonts (arial, 
times n.r. et al) in the document.   this has in the past helped me 
diagnose/solve problems i was having which were possibly related to 
font issues.



 > maybe do a data check to check doc fonts against systems fonts.

Regardless of what you're seeing for the internal font definitions
within the document, does it display correctly for you? If it does,
then that's surely not causing a problem.


well since you don't know what the problem is all we can do is 
suggest some things to try; there is obvioualy some kind of font 
issue happening, so you might as well give it a try.  you might even 
find other problems in the document if you're lucky!


At 19:31 -0400 4/30/07, David W. Fenton wrote:

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 see attached an the image doesn't appear below.


What is that supposed to tell me? It's just the temp font names that 
my PDF writer uses in storing the needed font definitions for the 
document. Is that supposed to help me troubleshoot somehow?


Sorry, but I don't understand!


i have never encountered such names in any PDF document i have 
checked; usually the font names are there, and regardless of whether 
or not i have them installed on my own dumputer.


--

shirling & neueweise ... new music publishers
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] :.../ http://newmusicnotation.com
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Re: [Finale] Test of a PDF on Mac

[Christopher Smith]

On Apr 30, 2007, at 7:45 PM, David W. Fenton wrote:



I've recreated the PDF optimized for portability (the default was
optimized for speed), and it's here:

http://www.dfenton.com/Collegium/Gibbons/Gibbons-LordGrantGrace2.pdf

I've also processed that file to optimize it for the Web, and the
result is here:

http://www.dfenton.com/Collegium/Gibbons/Gibbons-LordGrantGrace3.pdf

I see no differences between them, except that the web-optimized file
is very slightly smaller.




Both are fine for me on OSX 10.4.9, though as before, Preview 3.0.9  
does a better job of on-screen viewing than Acrobat Reader 7.0.9 does.


I doubt I have the special fonts you mentioned, and I could see  
everything fine.


Christopher


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Re: [Finale] Test of a PDF on Mac

[shirling & neueweise]

That's weird! Since she was able to view it in Photoshop, that seems 
to indicate that the fonts WERE embedded after all.


nope.  it _suggests_ they are installed on her computer, _or_ they 
are embedded; if she knows photoshop (or another digital graphic 
design programme) well she could tell you which is the case.


--

shirling & neueweise ... new music publishers
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Re: [Finale] OT: Music in the stones of Rosslyn Chapel?

[shirling & neueweise]

The idea that A440 had anything to do with music in the 15th century 
is ludicrous -- it is entirely a modern compromise.


aw come on fenton, don't be such a cynic; clearly this indicates that 
they were also capable of predicting the future.


--

shirling & neueweise ... new music publishers
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] :.../ http://newmusicnotation.com
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Re: [Finale] Test of a PDF on Mac

[David W. Fenton]

On 1 May 2007 at 2:21, shirling & neueweise wrote:

> >That's weird! Since she was able to view it in Photoshop, that seems
> >to indicate that the fonts WERE embedded after all.
> 
> nope.  it _suggests_ they are installed on her computer, _or_ they are
> embedded; if she knows photoshop (or another digital graphic design
> programme) well she could tell you which is the case.

I am certain that the Galliard knock-off font is not installed as 
it's from a TrueType font set I bought in 1991. She also does not 
have Finale installed, so I wouldn't expect the Engraver Wide font to 
be on her system.

-- 
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David Fenton Associates   http://dfenton.com/DFA/

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Re: [Finale] OT: Music in the stones of Rosslyn Chapel?

[dhbailey]

shirling & neueweise wrote:


The idea that A440 had anything to do with music in the 15th century 
is ludicrous -- it is entirely a modern compromise.


aw come on fenton, don't be such a cynic; clearly this indicates that 
they were also capable of predicting the future.




I thought it stood for Area-440, some European counterpart to the US's 
Area-51.


--
David H. Bailey
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: [Finale] Hyphenating text underlay

[John Howell]

But that IS r-as-a-vowel!

John


At 2:02 PM -0700 4/30/07, Dean M. Estabrook wrote:

Good point ... Marshall uses "learn" as the vowel sound model.

Dean

On Apr 30, 2007, at 1:46 PM, John Howell wrote:

Well, I don't know IPA, but could you describe 
what you mean by [3] by analogy with other 
standard English words.  Otherwise I can't tell 
what you're suggesting.


John


At 12:38 PM -0700 4/30/07, Dean M. Estabrook wrote:

On Apr 29, 2007, at 4:24 PM, John Howell wrote:

Madeleine Marshall informs, "Never sing "r" 
before a consonant. (p. 9) So, she would have 
the singers pronounce  bird as" b[3]d." I.e., 
she would maintain that the ONLY vowel in 
said example is [3], and that the "r" sound 
does not exist.  This approach has worked 
fine with all my choirs.


Dean

On the contrary, "r" IS a vowel, the ONLY 
vowel in "girl," "bird," or "heard."  (That 
is to say, since it's easy to get tangled up 
in semantics, it is a phonated sound that can 
be sustained.)  The written vowels are 
effectively mute.  It is a BETTER vowel 
(better sound quality) if it is formed by 
keeping the tongue low in the mouth and 
lifting the two outside edges up to touch the 
upper teeth, than if it is formed by raising 
the middle of the tongue to the soft palate, 
but it functions as a vowel, and if it quacks 
like a duck, etc., etc.


John


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Virginia Tech Department of Music
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Vox (540) 231-8411  Fax (540) 231-5034
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Dean M. Estabrook
http://deanestabrook.googlepages.com/home

Of all hoaxes, the one which is my most 
vexing bête noire on a quotidian basis, is 
the cereal box top which informs  simply,  
"Lift Tab to Open."  Then, "To Close, Insert 
Tab Here ." Yeah, right! In attempting to 
accomplish the first direction, not only the 
tab but also the slit intended to accept the 
aforementioned protuberance  have both been 
irreparably  disfigured and rendered 
dysfunctional.  This debacle is then 
amplified by the misbehavior of the 
recalcitrant inner bag, which can not be 
unsealed sans mangling it, and hence, will 
not disperse its contents without exiting 
the box itself. All I wanted was a bowl of 
cereal.







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--
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Virginia Tech Department of Music
Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240
Vox (540) 231-8411  Fax (540) 231-5034
(mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED])
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Dean M. Estabrook
http://deanestabrook.googlepages.com/home

Of all hoaxes, the one which is my most vexing 
bête noire on a quotidian basis, is the cereal 
box top which informs  simply,  
"Lift Tab to Open."  Then, "To Close, Insert 
Tab Here ." Yeah, right! In attempting to 
accomplish the first direction, not only the 
tab but also the slit intended to accept the 
aforementioned protuberance  have both been 
irreparably  disfigured and rendered 
dysfunctional.  This debacle is then amplified 
by the misbehavior of the recalcitrant inner 
bag, which can not be unsealed sans mangling 
it, and hence, will not disperse its contents 
without exiting the box itself. All I wanted 
was a bowl of cereal.







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--
John & Susie Howell
Virginia Tech Department of Music
Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240
Vox (540) 231-8411  Fax (540) 231-5034
(mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED])
http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html

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[Finale] Re: Hyphenating text underlay

[John Howell]

At 8:16 AM +1000 5/1/07, Matthew Hindson fastmail acct wrote:

John Howell wrote:



On the contrary, "r" IS a vowel, the ONLY vowel in "girl," "bird," 
or "heard."  (That is to say, since it's easy to get tangled up in 
semantics, it is a phonated sound that can be sustained.)  The 
written vowels are effectively mute.


Of course, this is when one is speaking/singing with an American 
accent.  For us that don't actively pronounce the "r" in words, 
"girl" is pronounced with a neutral vowel.  The r isn't heard at all.


Well, I can't argue about the American accent (although I could be 
picky and ask WHICH American accent!), since that's how I speak.  But 
that would give the pronunciations "gul," "bud," and "hud" with a 
hint of an "r" slipped in before the final consonant, and I would 
NEVER coach that pronunciation.  But you're quite correct about 
singing (with extended vowels) being different from speaking (in 
which almost all unstressed syllables become schwas).  Is a 
puzzlement!


John


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Re: [Finale] Hyphenating text underlay

[John Howell]

At 7:54 PM -0400 4/30/07, David W. Fenton wrote:

On 30 Apr 2007 at 15:40, John Howell wrote:


 Got to go give a Quiz.  Talk to you later.


When I first read this my initial reaction was to feel nervous,
thinking that you'd said you were giving *us* a quiz! :)


Ha!!!  That'll be the day!  But our administration hath written that 
students may elect to take the grades they had the day before 4/16, 
and 19 students turned up today (out of 134) to take the final Unit 
Quiz in my class.  On final exam day, I expect that I'll feel like 
the Maytag repairman!  (And be happy to feel that way.)


John


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Re: [Finale] Hyphenating text underlay

[Mark D Lew]

On Apr 30, 2007, at 1:46 PM, John Howell wrote:

Well, I don't know IPA, but could you describe what you mean by [3]  
by analogy with other standard English words.  Otherwise I can't  
tell what you're suggesting.


Well if you don't know IPA you probably also won't know what it means  
if I say "unrounded open-mid central" or "non-rhotic accent".


I gather you've figured out by now that [3] is the vowel sound in  
"bird" as it is pronounced by someone with a proper British accent.  
(Think Julie Andrews.)  It's sort of like a schwa, or the "oo" in  
"book", or the "eu" in "chanteuse", but it's not identical to any of  
them.


You're a choral director, aren't you, John?  Suppose you're preparing  
your chorus for something that wants a decidedly British sound, like  
Gilbert & Sullivan or Benjamin Britten, and you have a long held note  
on "heard" or "world" or "pearl" or "early" or "virgin".  What vowel  
do you ask for? That's your [3].  It's not just for singing, it's a  
standard vowel in the pronunciation of the King's English, whether  
spoken or sung.  We don't use it in American pronunciation.


mdl
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Re: [Finale] Hyphenating text underlay

[Mark D Lew]

On Apr 30, 2007, at 3:11 PM, Matthew Hindson fastmail acct wrote:

Well, OK, my thoughts on this are that hyphenation should follow  
how the music is sung, i.e. with each note beginning with a  
consonant, and multi-consonants split. "pro-mise" not "prom-ise".   
This approach stems from my time of singing in a contemporary music  
choir in which it was drummed into us.


I guess it's no secret that I disagree with you on "promise".

I gather you would also do pro-bably, pro-blem, pro-fit, pro-per, pro- 
sper, pro-secute.


As for the statement that it may lead to words initially being  
pronounced incorrectly, I don't know of too many instances in which  
vocal music is sightread in performance anyway.


But that's not the point.  Any time singers perform on book at all --  
which is quite common for choruses -- they are relying on the music  
for cues.  This is not something that only applies when one is  
sightreading for the first time.


Everything that facilitates communication from the page to the brain  
frees up the singer's brain for other priorities such as watching the  
conductor, using good vocal technique, engaging the audience,  
interpreting the text expressively, etc.  A good score will do  
everything it can to reduce the demands of reading.


mdl
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Re: [Finale] Hyphenating text underlay

[Mark D Lew]

On Apr 29, 2007, at 8:32 AM, Robert Patterson wrote:

This is probably gonna start a religious war, but I would like to  
read the members' opinions about hyphenating text underlay. [...]


Not so much a religious war as a theological debate, I'd say.

mdl

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Re: [Finale] Re: Hyphenating text underlay

[Dean M. Estabrook]

Oh ... Marshall and I were speaking strictly about singing ... not  
speaking ... if that's the issue, I'm sorry.


Dean

On Apr 30, 2007, at 7:20 PM, John Howell wrote:


At 8:16 AM +1000 5/1/07, Matthew Hindson fastmail acct wrote:

John Howell wrote:



On the contrary, "r" IS a vowel, the ONLY vowel in "girl,"  
"bird," or "heard."  (That is to say, since it's easy to get  
tangled up in semantics, it is a phonated sound that can be  
sustained.)  The written vowels are effectively mute.


Of course, this is when one is speaking/singing with an American  
accent.  For us that don't actively pronounce the "r" in words,  
"girl" is pronounced with a neutral vowel.  The r isn't heard at all.


Well, I can't argue about the American accent (although I could be  
picky and ask WHICH American accent!), since that's how I speak.   
But that would give the pronunciations "gul," "bud," and "hud" with  
a hint of an "r" slipped in before the final consonant, and I would  
NEVER coach that pronunciation.  But you're quite correct about  
singing (with extended vowels) being different from speaking (in  
which almost all unstressed syllables become schwas).  Is a  
puzzlement!


John


--
John & Susie Howell
Virginia Tech Department of Music
Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240
Vox (540) 231-8411  Fax (540) 231-5034
(mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED])
http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html
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Dean M. Estabrook
http://deanestabrook.googlepages.com/home

Of all hoaxes, the one which is my most vexing bête noire on a  
quotidian basis, is the cereal box top which informs  simply,   
"Lift Tab to Open."  Then, "To Close, Insert Tab Here ." Yeah,  
right! In attempting to accomplish the first direction, not only  
the tab but also the slit intended to accept the aforementioned  
protuberance  have both been irreparably  disfigured and rendered  
dysfunctional.  This debacle is then amplified by the misbehavior  
of the recalcitrant inner bag, which can not be unsealed sans  
mangling it, and hence, will not disperse its contents without  
exiting the box itself. All I wanted was a bowl of cereal.







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Re: [Finale] Hyphenating text underlay

[Dean M. Estabrook]

Not if you pronounce it "L[3]n."  Which is what Marshall is suggesting.

Dean

On Apr 30, 2007, at 7:12 PM, John Howell wrote:


But that IS r-as-a-vowel!

John


At 2:02 PM -0700 4/30/07, Dean M. Estabrook wrote:

Good point ... Marshall uses "learn" as the vowel sound model.

Dean

On Apr 30, 2007, at 1:46 PM, John Howell wrote:

Well, I don't know IPA, but could you describe what you mean by  
[3] by analogy with other standard English words.  Otherwise I  
can't tell what you're suggesting.


John


At 12:38 PM -0700 4/30/07, Dean M. Estabrook wrote:

On Apr 29, 2007, at 4:24 PM, John Howell wrote:

Madeleine Marshall informs, "Never sing "r" before a consonant.  
(p. 9) So, she would have the singers pronounce  bird as" b[3] 
d." I.e., she would maintain that the ONLY vowel in said  
example is [3], and that the "r" sound does not exist.  This  
approach has worked fine with all my choirs.


Dean

On the contrary, "r" IS a vowel, the ONLY vowel in "girl,"  
"bird," or "heard."  (That is to say, since it's easy to get  
tangled up in semantics, it is a phonated sound that can be  
sustained.)  The written vowels are effectively mute.  It is a  
BETTER vowel (better sound quality) if it is formed by keeping  
the tongue low in the mouth and lifting the two outside edges  
up to touch the upper teeth, than if it is formed by raising  
the middle of the tongue to the soft palate, but it functions  
as a vowel, and if it quacks like a duck, etc., etc.


John


--
John & Susie Howell
Virginia Tech Department of Music
Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240
Vox (540) 231-8411  Fax (540) 231-5034
(mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED])
http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html
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Dean M. Estabrook
http://deanestabrook.googlepages.com/home

Of all hoaxes, the one which is my most vexing bête noire on a  
quotidian basis, is the cereal box top which informs  simply,   
"Lift Tab to Open."  Then, "To Close, Insert Tab Here ." Yeah,  
right! In attempting to accomplish the first direction, not  
only the tab but also the slit intended to accept the  
aforementioned protuberance  have both been irreparably   
disfigured and rendered dysfunctional.  This debacle is then  
amplified by the misbehavior of the recalcitrant inner bag,  
which can not be unsealed sans mangling it, and hence, will  
not disperse its contents without exiting the box itself. All  
I wanted was a bowl of cereal.







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--
John & Susie Howell
Virginia Tech Department of Music
Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240
Vox (540) 231-8411  Fax (540) 231-5034
(mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED])
http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html

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Dean M. Estabrook
http://deanestabrook.googlepages.com/home

Of all hoaxes, the one which is my most vexing bête noire on a  
quotidian basis, is the cereal box top which informs  simply,   
"Lift Tab to Open."  Then, "To Close, Insert Tab Here ." Yeah,  
right! In attempting to accomplish the first direction, not only  
the tab but also the slit intended to accept the aforementioned  
protuberance  have both been irreparably  disfigured and  
rendered dysfunctional.  This debacle is then amplified by the  
misbehavior of the recalcitrant inner bag, which can not be  
unsealed sans mangling it, and hence, will not disperse its  
contents without exiting the box itself. All I wanted was a bowl  
of cereal.







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--
John & Susie Howell
Virginia Tech Department of Music
Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240
Vox (540) 231-8411  Fax (540) 231-5034
(mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED])
http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html

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Dean M. Estabrook
http://deanestabrook.googlepages.com/home

Of all hoaxes, the one which is my most vexing bête noire on a  
quotidian basis, is the cereal box top which informs  simply,   
"Lift Tab to Open."  Then, "To Close, Insert Tab Here ." Yeah,  
right! In attempting to accomplish the first direction, not only  
the tab but also the slit intended to accept the aforementioned  
protuberance  have both been irreparably  disfigured and rendered  
dysfunctional.  This debacle is then amplified by the misbehavior  
of the recalcitrant inner bag, which can not be unsealed sans  
mangling it, and hence, will not disperse its contents without  
exiting the box itself. All I wanted was a bowl of cereal.







__

Re: [Finale] Hyphenating text underlay

[Dean M. Estabrook]

I would and do ask for that vowel even if we aren't doing G&S, or  
whatever. It just sings well to eliminate the "r", and to my American  
ear, does not sound at all affected, unless  you speak it, not sing  
it. If one is doing Sprectstimme (sp?) with English, then I don't  
know what approach would be taken.


Dean

On Apr 30, 2007, at 8:08 PM, Mark D Lew wrote:



On Apr 30, 2007, at 1:46 PM, John Howell wrote:

Well, I don't know IPA, but could you describe what you mean by  
[3] by analogy with other standard English words.  Otherwise I  
can't tell what you're suggesting.


Well if you don't know IPA you probably also won't know what it  
means if I say "unrounded open-mid central" or "non-rhotic accent".


I gather you've figured out by now that [3] is the vowel sound in  
"bird" as it is pronounced by someone with a proper British accent.  
(Think Julie Andrews.)  It's sort of like a schwa, or the "oo" in  
"book", or the "eu" in "chanteuse", but it's not identical to any  
of them.


You're a choral director, aren't you, John?  Suppose you're  
preparing your chorus for something that wants a decidedly British  
sound, like Gilbert & Sullivan or Benjamin Britten, and you have a  
long held note on "heard" or "world" or "pearl" or "early" or  
"virgin".  What vowel do you ask for? That's your [3].  It's not  
just for singing, it's a standard vowel in the pronunciation of the  
King's English, whether spoken or sung.  We don't use it in  
American pronunciation.


mdl
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Dean M. Estabrook
http://deanestabrook.googlepages.com/home

Of all hoaxes, the one which is my most vexing bête noire on a  
quotidian basis, is the cereal box top which informs  simply,   
"Lift Tab to Open."  Then, "To Close, Insert Tab Here ." Yeah,  
right! In attempting to accomplish the first direction, not only  
the tab but also the slit intended to accept the aforementioned  
protuberance  have both been irreparably  disfigured and rendered  
dysfunctional.  This debacle is then amplified by the misbehavior  
of the recalcitrant inner bag, which can not be unsealed sans  
mangling it, and hence, will not disperse its contents without  
exiting the box itself. All I wanted was a bowl of cereal.







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Re: [Finale] OT: Music in the stones of Rosslyn Chapel?

[Dean M. Estabrook]

Yeah, well    you guys can debunk most of these premises, but  
don't mess with Santa Claus and area 51! It's unamerican and too much  
fun to let go of.


Dean



On Apr 30, 2007, at 5:39 PM, dhbailey wrote:


shirling & neueweise wrote:
The idea that A440 had anything to do with music in the 15th  
century is ludicrous -- it is entirely a modern compromise.
aw come on fenton, don't be such a cynic; clearly this indicates  
that they were also capable of predicting the future.


I thought it stood for Area-440, some European counterpart to the  
US's Area-51.


--
David H. Bailey
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Dean M. Estabrook
http://deanestabrook.googlepages.com/home

Of all hoaxes, the one which is my most vexing bête noire on a  
quotidian basis, is the cereal box top which informs  simply,   
"Lift Tab to Open."  Then, "To Close, Insert Tab Here ." Yeah,  
right! In attempting to accomplish the first direction, not only  
the tab but also the slit intended to accept the aforementioned  
protuberance  have both been irreparably  disfigured and rendered  
dysfunctional.  This debacle is then amplified by the misbehavior  
of the recalcitrant inner bag, which can not be unsealed sans  
mangling it, and hence, will not disperse its contents without  
exiting the box itself. All I wanted was a bowl of cereal.







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[Finale] OT: Paging Philip Aker; Was: Hyphenating text underlay

[Randolph Peters]

Matthew Hindson wrote:
Altogether that was the approach I took when creating the 
hyphenation dictionary on my website.  Originally it was created for 
use with Philip Aker's auto-hyphenation plugin for Finale, and it's 
by no means finished, but maybe it may be useful for someone.


Whatever happened to Philip Aker? He dropped out of Finale and this 
list when Mac OS X was introduced. I wish he was able to port some of 
his plugins to the current Finale and system OS. I liked his 
feathered beams plugin among others.


I tried emailing him a few times, but I got no reply. Does anyone 
know what happened to him?


-Randolph Peters
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