Re: [Finale] Full measure rests
TG Tools Modify rests Shift rests Center whole measure rests in measure double whole rests This seems to do the trick for me quite easily! Thanks to all for their suggestions. Martin On Dec 30, 2008, at 2:01 AM, dc wrote: Martin Banner écrit: Thanks, but I will be keeping the note values as they are, so I still don't have a solution to my original question of how to center a double whole rest in a measure of 4/2, acting as the default rest. My solution is to use an expression centered in the measure and to hide the original rest with a staff style. Dennis ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale Martin Banner mban...@hvc.rr.com http://www.alliancemusic.com/peopledetails.cfm?iPeopleID=22 http://hinshawmusic.com/search_results.php?keyword=bannersearch=Search http://collavoce.com/search.php?cmd=searchmode=normalwords=Banner http://sbmp.com/SeeItNowFolder/SeeItNowMen.html http://carlfischer.com/Fischer/search.cfm?cfT=cfC=BannercfID= http://lorenz.com/results.aspx?srch=quickcid=Martin+Banner ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Full measure rests
I have more or less missed the beginning of the thread, but when I need to do this I use a staff-style with a Faulenzer symbol replaced by the double whole rest. This works well. The main problem I have encountered is multi-measure rests in parts. Symbols won't work for those as they should have twice the amount that they have. A real problem. There are work arounds, but none simple. Johannes On 29.12.2008 Martin Banner wrote: Thanks, but I will be keeping the note values as they are, so I still don't have a solution to my original question of how to center a double whole rest in a measure of 4/2, acting as the default rest. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Full measure rests
I didn't know what Faulenzer was, but after looking it up I still don't know a proper term for it English. Repeated bar hash maybe? Anyway, it is an ingenious solution. Are to design a staff style such that you can apply it indiscriminately, or must you select exactly the empty bars to apply it to? I still don't understand the problem with multi-measure rests in parts. Why use symbols at all, if they are not correct? Or why not adopt the Brahms Requiem approach? RP On Tue, Dec 30, 2008 at 7:57 AM, Johannes Gebauer li...@musikmanufaktur.com wrote: I have more or less missed the beginning of the thread, but when I need to do this I use a staff-style with a Faulenzer symbol replaced by the double whole rest. This works well. The main problem I have encountered is multi-measure rests in parts. Symbols won't work for those as they should have twice the amount that they have. A real problem. There are work arounds, but none simple. Johannes On 29.12.2008 Martin Banner wrote: Thanks, but I will be keeping the note values as they are, so I still don't have a solution to my original question of how to center a double whole rest in a measure of 4/2, acting as the default rest. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Full measure rests
On 30.12.2008 Robert Patterson wrote: I still don't understand the problem with multi-measure rests in parts. Why use symbols at all, if they are not correct? Or why not adopt the Brahms Requiem approach? I must have missed the Brahms Requiem approach in the discussion. However, why use Symbols in parts? Because a lot of publishers do that, like Bärenreiter (Bach B minor mass etc), and it is still standard for such editions. I like it, too, it looks better than simple bars. And Finale should be able to do it. It is simply not following conventions, neither with single bar rests in 4/2, nor with MMrests. To answer your other question, it is a while since I have done it, but I believe you have to apply it exactly to the measures in question. I haven't looked it up, but can you apply staff styles only to empty measures? Johannes ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Full measure rests
The Brahms Requiem parts that I have (reprints of the old Breitkopf edition, I believe), use a whole rest symbol over a single empty bar of 4/2 with the numeral 1 above. I don't recall if symbols are used in 4/2 for numbers of measures greater than 1. The parts also use a whole rest in bars of 4/2 where there is a cue. I don't know of a way for alternate notation to take effect only in empty bars, but it may be possible with some combination of option and layer(s). I agree Finale should be able to follow conventions that are so traditional and so clearly stated in the very texts that they claim to have used as guidelines, esp. as regards to the full-meas rest symbol. On Tue, Dec 30, 2008 at 10:48 AM, Johannes Gebauer li...@musikmanufaktur.com wrote: On 30.12.2008 Robert Patterson wrote: I still don't understand the problem with multi-measure rests in parts. Why use symbols at all, if they are not correct? Or why not adopt the Brahms Requiem approach? I must have missed the Brahms Requiem approach in the discussion. However, why use Symbols in parts? Because a lot of publishers do that, like Bärenreiter (Bach B minor mass etc), and it is still standard for such editions. I like it, too, it looks better than simple bars. And Finale should be able to do it. It is simply not following conventions, neither with single bar rests in 4/2, nor with MMrests. To answer your other question, it is a while since I have done it, but I believe you have to apply it exactly to the measures in question. I haven't looked it up, but can you apply staff styles only to empty measures? Johannes ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Full measure rests
Thanks, but I will be keeping the note values as they are, so I still don't have a solution to my original question of how to center a double whole rest in a measure of 4/2, acting as the default rest. Martin On Dec 25, 2008, at 3:57 PM, John Howell wrote: At 12:58 PM -0500 12/25/08, Martin Banner wrote: This piece, by Domenico Cimarosa, is for SATB choir, two trombe, two oboes, violins, celli and bass. Well, the problem would go away, of course, if you chose to reduce the note values by half and notate it in 4/4. Which I would seriously consider if I were making the edition for my own musicians. John -- John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music Virginia Tech Department of Music College of Liberal Arts Human Sciences Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html We never play anything the same way once. Shelly Manne's definition of jazz musicians. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale Martin Banner mban...@hvc.rr.com http://www.alliancemusic.com/peopledetails.cfm?iPeopleID=22 http://hinshawmusic.com/search_results.php?keyword=bannersearch=Search http://collavoce.com/search.php?cmd=searchmode=normalwords=Banner http://sbmp.com/SeeItNowFolder/SeeItNowMen.html http://carlfischer.com/Fischer/search.cfm?cfT=cfC=BannercfID= http://lorenz.com/results.aspx?srch=quickcid=Martin+Banner ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Full measure rests
I beg to differ. You've gotten a number of solutions that are viable workarounds. That's the best you'll get given the constraints. On Mon, Dec 29, 2008 at 11:11 AM, Martin Banner mban...@hvc.rr.com wrote: Thanks, but I will be keeping the note values as they are, so I still don't have a solution to my original question of how to center a double whole rest in a measure of 4/2, acting as the default rest. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Full measure rests
On 27.12.2008 David W. Fenton wrote: Perhaps you could space the measure manually and then set music spacing to incorporate manually changes, instead of overwriting them. Doesn't help for parts, but should get the job done in the score. No, this option is for moved notes, not for separate spacing. It won't work that way. Johannes ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Full measure rests
On 25.12.2008 Aaron Sherber wrote: There are a lot of things for which this is true. I sent in a feature request a few years ago for something like staff styles that could be used for note spacing. (I had a piece that went along nicely in 4/4 and 3/4 and then had a section in very slow 4/8. I wanted a wider spacing for the 4/8 to make it clearer that it didn't just clip along like 2/4 in the main tempo.) But this you can do easily without staff styles. Just space the piece by sections with different settings. Perhaps it is better to have automatic music spacing off for this. Johannes ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Full measure rests
At 12:58 PM -0500 12/25/08, Martin Banner wrote: This piece, by Domenico Cimarosa, is for SATB choir, two trombe, two oboes, violins, celli and bass. Well, the problem would go away, of course, if you chose to reduce the note values by half and notate it in 4/4. Which I would seriously consider if I were making the edition for my own musicians. John -- John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music Virginia Tech Department of Music College of Liberal Arts Human Sciences Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html We never play anything the same way once. Shelly Manne's definition of jazz musicians. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Full measure rests
At 05:28 AM 12/26/2008, Johannes Gebauer wrote: There are a lot of things for which this is true. I sent in a feature request a few years ago for something like staff styles that could be used for note spacing. (I had a piece that went along nicely in 4/4 and 3/4 and then had a section in very slow 4/8. I wanted a wider spacing for the 4/8 to make it clearer that it didn't just clip along like 2/4 in the main tempo.) But this you can do easily without staff styles. Just space the piece by sections with different settings. Yes, of course -- but then you have to remember to go in and change the settings each time you want to respace a section. Not what I would call easily. It would be so much better if you could save the spacing preferences (or other preferences, as I suggested) on a section by section basis, and then just respace the entire piece as needed. Aaron. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Full measure rests
At 10:57 AM -0500 12/25/08, Martin Banner wrote: I am working on an 18th Century edition from an autograph manuscript (dated 1769). The final movement of this choral/orchestral work is a fugue in cut time (4/2 time). Although the autograph manuscript notates a full measure rest with a double whole rest, I was wondering if I should use that in a modern edition or go with the Finale default whole rest for a blank measure. Also, if I use the double whole rest for a blank measure, the rest is all the over to the left. How would I go about centering the double whole rest? By the way, I'm using Finale 2008 on an iMac. Thanks. Martin There's no doubt in my mind that if it's a modern edition (and not an attempt at an exact urtext reproduction) you should go with the modern convention. Same thing with multimeasure rests instead of incomprehensible stacks of old-time rest values. And I wouldn't say it's a Finale default, but rather a modern notational default. I just checked in Roemer (1973). He doesn't say anything about using a whole rest in all time signatures, but he does show the double-whole rest as obsolete. From working in early music I understand the older rest conventions perfectly well, and also understand where they came from historically, but as a modern player I don't want to have to stop and decode them! John -- John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music Virginia Tech Department of Music College of Liberal Arts Human Sciences Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html We never play anything the same way once. Shelly Manne's definition of jazz musicians. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Full measure rests
John Howell wrote: There's no doubt in my mind that if it's a modern edition (and not an attempt at an exact urtext reproduction) you should go with the modern convention. I am sure others on the list may have a strong opinion about the main point of this statement. I do not (at least, not yet). But the problem is, in this case, what is modern convention. I just checked in Roemer (1973). He doesn't say anything about using a whole rest in all time signatures, but he does show the double-whole rest as obsolete. That makes the score 2-to-2. (Read and Roehmer say it's obsolete. Ross and Stone say it is not.) However, I personally lend more weight to Stone's recommendation than any of the others, since he was *expressly* describing notation in the 20th century, including exhaustive extended techniques. Furthermore, his book is not just his opinion but rather the result of an international conference (Ghent, 1974) to agree on notation standards for contemporary music. (We probably need another such conference by now. Ghent is a nice city.) Furthermore, if you use a whole rest in 4/2 to mean a whole bar, what rest value do you use for a half bar? (Read, at least, addresses the question. I don't care for his answer.) Same thing with multimeasure rests instead of incomprehensible stacks of old-time rest values. Incomprehensible? Those incomprehensible stacks have saved my bacon a numerous times when the number was illegible. (In some editions it is quite difficult to distinguish between 3, 5, and 8.) But in the end I don't have a strong feeling about them for rests of 8-bars or fewer. For more than 8 bars the stacks do indeed become fairly incomprehensible. but as a modern player I don't want to have to stop and decode them! What's to decode? I would not count the Brahms Requiem as early music (although doubtless some would), and it uses the double-wholes. However, interestingly, it uses the double-wholes in the score only. The parts have whole rests instead. However, absent a cue there is always a figure 1 above the measure. (1 measure rest.) This may be the best of both worlds, as it allows you to use whole rests for both whole bars and half bars. (As do the parts in the Brahms Requiem.) I would accomplish this as follows: 1. If the whole piece is 4/2, change the default whole rest character. Otherwise turn off the automatic display and insert score-only expressions as needed. 2. Create cues using whole rests as you would in smaller time sigs. 3. In multimeasure rests, set Start Number At to 1 and set Use Symbols for Rests Less Than to 2 or greater. Obviously, you have the same problem here as with music spacing. You have to remember different values for different sections. FWIW: My Settings Scrapbook plugin can help you store those different settings for so you can apply them at will without having to remember them all. You can name the different settings anything you want. -- Robert Patterson http://RobertGPatterson.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Full measure rests
At 9:29 AM -0600 12/26/08, Robert Patterson wrote: John Howell wrote: Same thing with multimeasure rests instead of incomprehensible stacks of old-time rest values. Incomprehensible? Those incomprehensible stacks have saved my bacon a numerous times when the number was illegible. (In some editions it is quite difficult to distinguish between 3, 5, and 8.) But in the end I don't have a strong feeling about them for rests of 8-bars or fewer. For more than 8 bars the stacks do indeed become fairly incomprehensible. but as a modern player I don't want to have to stop and decode them! What's to decode? I would not count the Brahms Requiem as early music (although doubtless some would), and it uses the double-wholes. However, interestingly, it uses the double-wholes in the score only. The parts have whole rests instead. I don't recall that, but neither do I question your observation, and in any case it certainly did not bother me. The Brahms was the first exemplar score in the first score-study seminar I took with Julus Herford, and Juli had pre-ordered the Kalmus full scores (which appeared to be a reprint from the Brahms Collected Works). There was no problem with the rests, BUT, apparently Brahms used the soprano, alto and tenor C-clefs (plus the normal bass clef) in his choral parts (which is what we had in those scores), and THAT was a major decoding stumbling block for us all! (I can't remember what he used for the solo voices.) After studying in musicology (and playing viola and gamba), I'm comfortable with the movable C-clefs now, but I still can't look at a choral score or chamber music score using them and instantly recognize the chord structures (with the obvious exception of alto clef). Just not enough practice. I'm sure it didn't bother Brahms! However, absent a cue there is always a figure 1 above the measure. (1 measure rest.) This may be the best of both worlds, as it allows you to use whole rests for both whole bars and half bars. (As do the parts in the Brahms Requiem.) Yes, Roemer does recommend that. (The only reason I use his book as a reference is that it happens to be the only one I own.) We never worked with the parts in the Brahms, just the score. -- John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music Virginia Tech Department of Music College of Liberal Arts Human Sciences Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html We never play anything the same way once. Shelly Manne's definition of jazz musicians. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Full measure rests
On 25 Dec 2008 at 15:52, John Howell wrote: I just checked in Roemer (1973). He doesn't say anything about using a whole rest in all time signatures, but he does show the double-whole rest as obsolete. If that's what he says, then he's just WRONG. He likely ignores early music, where the long note values are important, and the double whole rest is essential. I think it's ridiculous to depend on what someone said in a book. Common sense should tell you for your particular piece what notational convention is going to work best. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Full measure rests
On 25 Dec 2008 at 15:57, John Howell wrote: At 12:58 PM -0500 12/25/08, Martin Banner wrote: This piece, by Domenico Cimarosa, is for SATB choir, two trombe, two oboes, violins, celli and bass. Well, the problem would go away, of course, if you chose to reduce the note values by half and notate it in 4/4. Which I would seriously consider if I were making the edition for my own musicians. I'm very much against halving note values, because for players accustomed to reading the long notes, the rhythm works better in the original values. Cimaraso, on the other hand, it not exactly the era when long note values were normal. Surely it's a stile antico piece, likely church music, where the long note values persisted (Mozart used them). In a certain sense, you could easily halve the note values and not cause violence to the interpretation of the music. On the other hand, in a period in which the long note values conveyed something very specific (serious, contrapuntal style), you'd be losing that information. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Full measure rests
On 26 Dec 2008 at 13:38, dc wrote: Johannes Gebauer écrit: But this you can do easily without staff styles. Just space the piece by sections with different settings. Perhaps it is better to have automatic music spacing off for this. But it's a nuisance to have to space the piece by sections when there are many changes. Not only does it take quite a few clicks each time, but if you make a small correction that requires respacing, you can't respace the music without checking the settings. Perhaps you could space the measure manually and then set music spacing to incorporate manually changes, instead of overwriting them. Doesn't help for parts, but should get the job done in the score. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
[Finale] Full measure rests
I am working on an 18th Century edition from an autograph manuscript (dated 1769). The final movement of this choral/orchestral work is a fugue in cut time (4/2 time). Although the autograph manuscript notates a full measure rest with a double whole rest, I was wondering if I should use that in a modern edition or go with the Finale default whole rest for a blank measure. Also, if I use the double whole rest for a blank measure, the rest is all the over to the left. How would I go about centering the double whole rest? By the way, I'm using Finale 2008 on an iMac. Thanks. Martin Martin Banner mban...@hvc.rr.com http://www.alliancemusic.com/peopledetails.cfm?iPeopleID=22 http://hinshawmusic.com/search_results.php?keyword=bannersearch=Search http://collavoce.com/search.php?cmd=searchmode=normalwords=Banner http://sbmp.com/SeeItNowFolder/SeeItNowMen.html http://carlfischer.com/Fischer/search.cfm?cfT=cfC=BannercfID= http://lorenz.com/results.aspx?srch=quickcid=Martin+Banner ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Full measure rests
The modern texts I consulted are not in complete agreement. Both Ross and Stone say that you should use a double-whole in meters 4/2 and larger. I agree with them, and that is what I practice. You can see it for yourself in engravings of std. rep. pieces such as the Brahms Requiem. Gardner Read (whose advice in Music Notation I usually find to be less useful than that of Ross or Stone) acknowledges the practice of using the double-whole in 4/2, but he claims this practice has been displaced by using a whole rest everywhere for empty bars (larger than 1/8 time). He then compensates for this (imo bad) advice by specifying that the whole rest may *only* be used for empty measures. In all three cases, the issue is that in 4/2 and larger times there is a need for the whole rest to serve as a partial-bar rest (aligned in time). There must be a clear way do distinguish between an empty bar rest and a whole rest. I would argue that by extrapolation one should use a double-whole rest in empty bars of meters 4/1 or larger. (At 8/1 we'd be in a pickle, but I have never written in 8/1 in any context.) As for centering double wholes, I don't know a great way. A not-so-painful workaround would be to turn off Display Whole Rests in Empty Bars (using a staff style if need be) in the 4/2 passage. Then apply the double-whole rest as an expression in the empty bars. You should be able to design one that autopositions correctly. If there is a better way than this, I'd like to know it too. On Thu, Dec 25, 2008 at 9:57 AM, Martin Banner mban...@hvc.rr.com wrote: I am working on an 18th Century edition from an autograph manuscript (dated 1769). The final movement of this choral/orchestral work is a fugue in cut time (4/2 time). Although the autograph manuscript notates a full measure rest with a double whole rest, I was wondering if I should use that in a modern edition or go with the Finale default whole rest for a blank measure. Also, if I use the double whole rest for a blank measure, the rest is all the over to the left. How would I go about centering the double whole rest? By the way, I'm using Finale 2008 on an iMac. Thanks. Martin Martin Banner mban...@hvc.rr.com http://www.alliancemusic.com/peopledetails.cfm?iPeopleID=22 http://hinshawmusic.com/search_results.php?keyword=bannersearch=Search http://collavoce.com/search.php?cmd=searchmode=normalwords=Banner http://sbmp.com/SeeItNowFolder/SeeItNowMen.html http://carlfischer.com/Fischer/search.cfm?cfT=cfC=BannercfID= http://lorenz.com/results.aspx?srch=quickcid=Martin+Banner ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Full measure rests
Robert Patterson wrote: If there is a better way than this, I'd like to know it too. Couldn't you use tuplets to make whole rests appear as double whole rests? ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Full measure rests
At 11:38 AM 12/25/2008, Robert Patterson wrote: As for centering double wholes, I don't know a great way. A not-so-painful workaround would be to turn off Display Whole Rests in Empty Bars (using a staff style if need be) in the 4/2 passage. Then apply the double-whole rest as an expression in the empty bars. You should be able to design one that autopositions correctly. If there is a better way than this, I'd like to know it too. TGTools! Modify | | Shift Rests. Aaron. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Full measure rests
Do the rests retain their positioning in the parts if you use TGTools? And would this not also break up multimeasure rests? (The expression approach does neither, although the expressions must be manually hidden the parts as needed.) Obviously, if it is music with no parts (e.g., choral music) then the above present less of a concern. On Thu, Dec 25, 2008 at 11:06 AM, Aaron Sherber aa...@sherber.com wrote: TGTools! Modify | | Shift Rests. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Full measure rests
This piece, by Domenico Cimarosa, is for SATB choir, two trombe, two oboes, violins, celli and bass. Martin On Dec 25, 2008, at 12:52 PM, Robert Patterson wrote: Do the rests retain their positioning in the parts if you use TGTools? And would this not also break up multimeasure rests? (The expression approach does neither, although the expressions must be manually hidden the parts as needed.) Obviously, if it is music with no parts (e.g., choral music) then the above present less of a concern. On Thu, Dec 25, 2008 at 11:06 AM, Aaron Sherber aa...@sherber.com wrote: TGTools! Modify | | Shift Rests. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale Martin Banner mban...@hvc.rr.com http://www.alliancemusic.com/peopledetails.cfm?iPeopleID=22 http://hinshawmusic.com/search_results.php?keyword=bannersearch=Search http://collavoce.com/search.php?cmd=searchmode=normalwords=Banner http://sbmp.com/SeeItNowFolder/SeeItNowMen.html http://carlfischer.com/Fischer/search.cfm?cfT=cfC=BannercfID= http://lorenz.com/results.aspx?srch=quickcid=Martin+Banner ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Full measure rests
At 12:06 PM 12/25/2008, Aaron Sherber wrote: TGTools! Modify | | Shift Rests. That should be Modify | Rests | Shift Rests, of course. Aaron. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Full measure rests
At 12:52 PM 12/25/2008, Robert Patterson wrote: Do the rests retain their positioning in the parts if you use TGTools? Sadly, no. TGTools appears to figure out how wide the measure is and apply an EVPU offset to the rest. The offset is the same in score and parts, so if there are different measure widths, or if you later change measure widths, you're out of luck. And would this not also break up multimeasure rests? Well, simply entering the double whole rest breaks MM rests, regardless of what you do with the positioning. Sorry, I guess I was just answering the detail question of how to position the rest, not really thinking about the larger issues. Aaron. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Full measure rests
I suppose I could put in two whole rests in such measures, but that is just not as professional looking as the single double whole rest. What would happen if I entered a whole rest first (then making it invisible), then a double whole rest on the third beat (and when the dialogue box comes up asking me if i want to leave the measure as is or tie it over into the next measure, telling it to leave as is). Would this mess up playback or spacing? Martin On Dec 25, 2008, at 2:44 PM, Aaron Sherber wrote: At 12:52 PM 12/25/2008, Robert Patterson wrote: Do the rests retain their positioning in the parts if you use TGTools? Sadly, no. TGTools appears to figure out how wide the measure is and apply an EVPU offset to the rest. The offset is the same in score and parts, so if there are different measure widths, or if you later change measure widths, you're out of luck. And would this not also break up multimeasure rests? Well, simply entering the double whole rest breaks MM rests, regardless of what you do with the positioning. Sorry, I guess I was just answering the detail question of how to position the rest, not really thinking about the larger issues. Aaron. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale Martin Banner mban...@hvc.rr.com http://www.alliancemusic.com/peopledetails.cfm?iPeopleID=22 http://hinshawmusic.com/search_results.php?keyword=bannersearch=Search http://collavoce.com/search.php?cmd=searchmode=normalwords=Banner http://sbmp.com/SeeItNowFolder/SeeItNowMen.html http://carlfischer.com/Fischer/search.cfm?cfT=cfC=BannercfID= http://lorenz.com/results.aspx?srch=quickcid=Martin+Banner ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Full measure rests
The double-whole would not likely be aligned properly even then. When it serves as a full-meas rest it should be graphically centered between the barlines. Plus, unless you are using a pre-Fin04 version, using expressions would be much easier. I would recommend using TGTools if your Finale version is earlier than Fin04. On Thu, Dec 25, 2008 at 1:58 PM, Martin Banner mban...@hvc.rr.com wrote: What would happen if I entered a whole rest first (then making it invisible), then a double whole rest on the third beat ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Full measure rests
I'm using Finale 2008 on an iMac On Dec 25, 2008, at 3:31 PM, Robert Patterson wrote: The double-whole would not likely be aligned properly even then. When it serves as a full-meas rest it should be graphically centered between the barlines. Plus, unless you are using a pre-Fin04 version, using expressions would be much easier. I would recommend using TGTools if your Finale version is earlier than Fin04. On Thu, Dec 25, 2008 at 1:58 PM, Martin Banner mban...@hvc.rr.com wrote: What would happen if I entered a whole rest first (then making it invisible), then a double whole rest on the third beat ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale Martin Banner mban...@hvc.rr.com http://www.alliancemusic.com/peopledetails.cfm?iPeopleID=22 http://hinshawmusic.com/search_results.php?keyword=bannersearch=Search http://collavoce.com/search.php?cmd=searchmode=normalwords=Banner http://sbmp.com/SeeItNowFolder/SeeItNowMen.html http://carlfischer.com/Fischer/search.cfm?cfT=cfC=BannercfID= http://lorenz.com/results.aspx?srch=quickcid=Martin+Banner ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Full measure rests
Why don't you go into Doc Opts--Notes and Rests and change the character for the default whole rest? or does the piece change meter? On Dec 25, 2008, at 2:44 PM, Martin Banner wrote: I'm using Finale 2008 on an iMac On Dec 25, 2008, at 3:31 PM, Robert Patterson wrote: The double-whole would not likely be aligned properly even then. When it serves as a full-meas rest it should be graphically centered between the barlines. Plus, unless you are using a pre-Fin04 version, using expressions would be much easier. I would recommend using TGTools if your Finale version is earlier than Fin04. On Thu, Dec 25, 2008 at 1:58 PM, Martin Banner mban...@hvc.rr.com wrote: What would happen if I entered a whole rest first (then making it invisible), then a double whole rest on the third beat ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale Martin Banner mban...@hvc.rr.com http://www.alliancemusic.com/peopledetails.cfm?iPeopleID=22 http://hinshawmusic.com/search_results.php? keyword=bannersearch=Search http://collavoce.com/search.php?cmd=searchmode=normalwords=Banner http://sbmp.com/SeeItNowFolder/SeeItNowMen.html http://carlfischer.com/Fischer/search.cfm?cfT=cfC=BannercfID= http://lorenz.com/results.aspx?srch=quickcid=Martin+Banner ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale Allen Fisher Founder and Principal Developer Fisher Art and Technology al...@fisherartandtech.com i...@fisherartandtech.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Full measure rests
Yes, the piece changes meter (it is several movements long, and I am doing this as one long file) On Dec 25, 2008, at 3:58 PM, Allen Fisher wrote: Why don't you go into Doc Opts--Notes and Rests and change the character for the default whole rest? or does the piece change meter? On Dec 25, 2008, at 2:44 PM, Martin Banner wrote: I'm using Finale 2008 on an iMac On Dec 25, 2008, at 3:31 PM, Robert Patterson wrote: The double-whole would not likely be aligned properly even then. When it serves as a full-meas rest it should be graphically centered between the barlines. Plus, unless you are using a pre-Fin04 version, using expressions would be much easier. I would recommend using TGTools if your Finale version is earlier than Fin04. On Thu, Dec 25, 2008 at 1:58 PM, Martin Banner mban...@hvc.rr.com wrote: What would happen if I entered a whole rest first (then making it invisible), then a double whole rest on the third beat ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale Martin Banner mban...@hvc.rr.com http://www.alliancemusic.com/peopledetails.cfm?iPeopleID=22 http://hinshawmusic.com/search_results.php?keyword=bannersearch=Search http://collavoce.com/search.php?cmd=searchmode=normalwords=Banner http://sbmp.com/SeeItNowFolder/SeeItNowMen.html http://carlfischer.com/Fischer/search.cfm?cfT=cfC=BannercfID= http://lorenz.com/results.aspx?srch=quickcid=Martin+Banner ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale Allen Fisher Founder and Principal Developer Fisher Art and Technology al...@fisherartandtech.com i...@fisherartandtech.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale Martin Banner mban...@hvc.rr.com http://www.alliancemusic.com/peopledetails.cfm?iPeopleID=22 http://hinshawmusic.com/search_results.php?keyword=bannersearch=Search http://collavoce.com/search.php?cmd=searchmode=normalwords=Banner http://sbmp.com/SeeItNowFolder/SeeItNowMen.html http://carlfischer.com/Fischer/search.cfm?cfT=cfC=BannercfID= http://lorenz.com/results.aspx?srch=quickcid=Martin+Banner ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Full measure rests
On 25 Dec 2008 at 14:58, Allen Fisher wrote: Why don't you go into Doc Opts--Notes and Rests and change the character for the default whole rest? or does the piece change meter? I recently did a piece that switches between 4/2 and 6/2 and did exactly as you say. The only problem would have been if it had gone into 3/2. It would be nice if this were something you change in staff styles. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Full measure rests
This file contains several movements, some of which are 4/4, some 4/2. So I don't think I can do this for the entire file. Is it possible to do this for a specific region? Martin On Dec 25, 2008, at 4:46 PM, David W. Fenton wrote: On 25 Dec 2008 at 14:58, Allen Fisher wrote: Why don't you go into Doc Opts--Notes and Rests and change the character for the default whole rest? or does the piece change meter? I recently did a piece that switches between 4/2 and 6/2 and did exactly as you say. The only problem would have been if it had gone into 3/2. It would be nice if this were something you change in staff styles. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale Martin Banner mban...@hvc.rr.com http://www.alliancemusic.com/peopledetails.cfm?iPeopleID=22 http://hinshawmusic.com/search_results.php?keyword=bannersearch=Search http://collavoce.com/search.php?cmd=searchmode=normalwords=Banner http://sbmp.com/SeeItNowFolder/SeeItNowMen.html http://carlfischer.com/Fischer/search.cfm?cfT=cfC=BannercfID= http://lorenz.com/results.aspx?srch=quickcid=Martin+Banner ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Full measure rests
At 04:46 PM 12/25/2008, David W. Fenton wrote: It would be nice if this were something you change in staff styles. There are a lot of things for which this is true. I sent in a feature request a few years ago for something like staff styles that could be used for note spacing. (I had a piece that went along nicely in 4/4 and 3/4 and then had a section in very slow 4/8. I wanted a wider spacing for the 4/8 to make it clearer that it didn't just clip along like 2/4 in the main tempo.) Really, what would probably be most useful would be the ability to apply to a measure or group of measures a style which could alter any of the base settings in Document Options. Aaron. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
