[Finale] OT: historical use of C clefs for voice parts
I recently received the conductor's score of Gounod's Faust (Henschelverlag Berlin, 1972). I was surprised to find C-clefs used for the voice parts in a score this recent: all female voices are written in soprano clef and the tenors in tenor clef. I thought this practice had died out in the 19th century. Can anybody point me to detailed information about the history of the use of C-clefs? And does anybody know of other 20th century editions that use them for voice parts? Michael ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: historical use of C clefs for voice parts
At 10:14 AM +0100 11/6/10, Florence + Michael wrote: I recently received the conductor's score of Gounod's Faust (Henschelverlag Berlin, 1972). I was surprised to find C-clefs used for the voice parts in a score this recent: all female voices are written in soprano clef and the tenors in tenor clef. I thought this practice had died out in the 19th century. Can anybody point me to detailed information about the history of the use of C-clefs? And does anybody know of other 20th century editions that use them for voice parts? Michael LECTURE WARNING Delete while you still have a chance! Gounod is hardly what I'd call a "recent" composer, since he died in 1910. And that score is undoubtedly a reprint of a much earlier edition. But that's actually irrelevant to the question. Since Guido d'Arezzo invented the musical staff and the use of clefs in the early 11th century, the C clef and the F clef have always been considered movable, and they WERE moved in music in order to keep most of the notes within the staff. (Apparently the monks copying music had to cock their wrists at an awkward angle to draw ledger lines, so this was important to them.) When the G clef was added in the 15th century, it was also considered movable. So the three clefs were used in 9 different ways: G on bottom line (French violin clef, used 17th-18th centuries) G on second line (the familiar "treble" clef) C on bottom line (soprano clef, used by Bach for his boys' voices and for the right hand of much of his keyboard music) C on 2nd line (mezzo-soprano clef, used for d'amore winds, low violins, high violas) C on 3rd line (alto clef, used for violas, violas da gamba, alto sackbutts, alto voices, etc.) C on 4th line (tenor clef, used for tenor voices, tenor instruments) F on 3rd line (baritone clef, often used in madrigals when the "bass" part lies high) F on 4th line (the familiar "bass" clef) F on 5th line (sub-bass clef, most often found in Venetian polychoral music) Now the important point is that this was not just theoretical. Musicians were trained in this system, and were trained to read and think in all 9 movable clefs. This was beginners' stuff! And that training continued well into the 20th century, although not necessarily in the U.S. But Nadia Boulanger was still teaching the 9 clefs into the mid-20th century, according to one of my grad school professors who had studied with her in Paris. As to editions using the 9 clefs, most of the first generation of collected works, dating from the middle of the 19th century and into the 20th, made a point of reproducing the original manuscripts as closely as possible, including the original clefs and the original note values. The Bach-Gesellschaft edition reproduced all of Bach's original clefs, and since it is now in the public domain it has been widely reprinted and is available on line and on CDs. The three kinds of people who have to be able to read the 9 movable clefs include: (a) Musicologists, who deal with original manuscripts and prints in which those clefs were used, and others who may do similar research including conductors; (b) Conductors who delve into the earlier repertoire and may run into those clefs at any time (my first doctoral seminar studied the Brahms Requiem, and our professor had pre-ordered the Kalmus reprint of the score, which had the voice parts in the clefs Brahms used--soprano, alto, tenor and bass); and (c) early music singers and players who may very well run into those clefs in scores copies out of collected works editions and other Dankmäler and similar editions (New York Pro Musica performed from many of these editions, which Noah Greenberg unearthed in various libraries, and they simply HAD to read them). As a bonus, once you have learned to use the entire system of movable clefs, they are incredibly useful for transposing music. Arthur Squires, who sang tenor with New York Pro Musica, had dead perfect pitch and could not sing music that was not in the key they were singing in, BUT he read the clefs and used them to transposed mentally. So no, I would have to say that the 9 movable clefs did NOT disappear in the 19th century. They were alive and well. In fact the musical scholars who worked on those Collected Works editions could read them perfectly well themselves, and saw nothing wrong with reproducing the original clefs. I would say, rather, that in the U.S. at least, they died out of common use and were no longer taught in the 20th century, and that is kind of a shame and is something of an oversimplification in our system of music education. I wasn't taught them, although I learned to read alto clef playing viola, and I had to stumble through them in grad school in score reading classes and musicology classes. And of course the notation of vocal tenor parts has baffled more than one publisher! The t
Re: [Finale] OT: historical use of C clefs for voice parts
On 6 Nov 2010 at 10:14, Florence + Michael wrote: > I recently received the conductor's score of Gounod's Faust > (Henschelverlag Berlin, 1972). I was surprised to find C-clefs used > for the voice parts in a score this recent: all female voices are > written in soprano clef and the tenors in tenor clef. I thought this > practice had died out in the 19th century. Can anybody point me to > detailed information about the history of the use of C-clefs? And does > anybody know of other 20th century editions that use them for voice > parts? Likely it's not a new engraving, but a reprint of a 19th-century edition. Some of the Denkmäler editions from the early 20th century also use old clefs, but not all of them. It would seem that the period before the first war was the transition for this, so far as I can tell, though in the case of those, they were semi-critical editions of old music, so they were likely more conservative in retaining old clefs than "modern" music would have been. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: historical use of C clefs for voice parts
On 6 Nov 2010, at 19:22, John Howell wrote: > Gounod is hardly what I'd call a "recent" composer, since he died in 1910. > And that score is undoubtedly a reprint of a much earlier edition. Of course Gounod isn't a recent composer, but that edition is recent and certainly not a reprint of an earlier edition. It was completely new in 1972, edited by Fritz Oeser who put back passages that Gounod had cut before the premiere. According to Gérard Condé in his book on Gounod (Fayard 2009), Oeser even changed things to suit his own taste, for example taking a chorus from the third scene of the last act and inserting it into the first scene of that act. I'm perfectly used to seeing C-clefs in voice parts in older scores, but this is the first time that I've come across them in a recent edition where the music has clearly been newly engraved for that edition. It just seems weird. The "Urtext" editions I have from around the same period (Neue Mozartausgabe, for instance) use G-clefs for sopranos and tenors. Michael ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: historical use of C clefs for voice parts
At 10:06 PM +0100 11/6/10, Florence + Michael wrote: Of course Gounod isn't a recent composer, but that edition is recent and certainly not a reprint of an earlier edition. It was completely new in 1972, edited by Fritz Oeser who put back passages that Gounod had cut before the premiere. According to Gérard Condé in his book on Gounod (Fayard 2009), Oeser even changed things to suit his own taste, for example taking a chorus from the third scene of the last act and inserting it into the first scene of that act. In that case you're absolutely right: it's weird! By 1972 both the NBA and the NMA were well under way, both using modern clefs. Must have been an editor's choice, or a publisher's choice. John -- John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music Virginia Tech Department of Music College of Liberal Arts & Human Sciences Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html "We never play anything the same way once." Shelly Manne's definition of jazz musicians. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: historical use of C clefs for voice parts
On Sat, Nov 6, 2010 at 2:22 PM, John Howell wrote: > ... > > And of course the notation of vocal tenor parts has baffled more than one > publisher! The treble clef is incorrect because it shows the wrong octave. > The tenor C-clef had no such problem. At least one publisher--I think it > was Novello--used a doubled treble clef, apparently on the theory that 2 > treble clefs weighed twice as much as one, and pulled the pitch down an > octave!! And modern notation programs provide the tenor G-clef with a > little 8 under the clef for accuracy (which drives piano accompanists > nuts!). ... > I have seen all of these, but the worst - much worse than any of these - were some old church choral octavos I ran in to once that used a tenor clef - but placed it on the third SPACE. The result is the same as the octave treble clef, but not if it is misread, which it EASILY was! (After all - we, especially trombonists, glance at the clef, see a C clef, determine: if it is neatly in the middle of the staff = alto; if it's a bit above the middle = tenor.) It was driving me crazy, as I was trying to read the score assuming a regular tenor clef, but NONE of the harmony worked. Another attempt at a tenor clef for the masses (well, you know what I mean) was a treble clef with the little "c" part of the tenor clef attached to it - placed on the third space. That sort of worked, IMHO - it looked enough like a treble clef to not bother those who only read one or two clefs, but still had that link to the tenor clef for the more literate. But it didn't catch on. Raymond Horton ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: historical use of C clefs for voice parts
My trumpet teacher at Ohio State in the early 1990's insisted that all his students learn clefs in order to transpose on sight. Drives all my friends nuts... :) Allen On 6 Nov, 2010, at 1:22 PM, John Howell wrote: > As a bonus, once you have learned to use the entire system of movable clefs, > they are incredibly useful for transposing music. Arthur Squires, who sang > tenor with New York Pro Musica, had dead perfect pitch and could not sing > music that was not in the key they were singing in, BUT he read the clefs and > used them to transposed mentally. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
{Spam} Re: [Finale] OT: historical use of C clefs for voice parts
Florence + Michael wrote: I recently received the conductor's score of Gounod's Faust (Henschelverlag Berlin, 1972). I was surprised to find C-clefs used for the voice parts in a score this recent I'm not surprised to see them in a conductors score, as I've run across others, while examining conductors scores or other items, though I'm not able at the moment to say which scores they were. I suspect, though, that even though the conductor's score had C clefs for soprano and tenor, the voice parts, whether in a choral score or a separate part, used the G clefs for those voices. na ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
{Spam} Re: [Finale] OT: historical use of C clefs for voice parts
I understand the use of clefs to transpose from concert pitch music to the differently keyed transposing instruments, but is there a chart somewhere which does things in reverse? So that looking at a part for F horn, for example, which is printed in the treble clef, what clef would one use to show what the concert pitch note is? David H. Bailey On 11/20/2010 12:54 PM, Allen Fisher wrote: My trumpet teacher at Ohio State in the early 1990's insisted that all his students learn clefs in order to transpose on sight. Drives all my friends nuts... :) Allen On 6 Nov, 2010, at 1:22 PM, John Howell wrote: As a bonus, once you have learned to use the entire system of movable clefs, they are incredibly useful for transposing music. Arthur Squires, who sang tenor with New York Pro Musica, had dead perfect pitch and could not sing music that was not in the key they were singing in, BUT he read the clefs and used them to transposed mentally. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale -- David H. Bailey dhbai...@davidbaileymusicstudio.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: {Spam} Re: [Finale] OT: historical use of C clefs for voice parts
C clef on the second line from the bottom equals horn in F. Add one flat.
Bass clef octave up equals horn in E (add 4 sharps) or horn in Eb (add 3 flats).
Alto clef equals horn in D (add 2 sharps) or horn in Db (add 5 flats).
Treble clef 8bassa equals horn in C.
Tenor clef equals horn in B natural (add 5 sharps - Brahms calls this Horn in
tiefes H or something the like). Or it equals horn in Bb basso (ad 2 flats).
Klaus, who will rather transpose than read C clefs
--- On Sun, 11/21/10, David H. Bailey
wrote:
> From: David H. Bailey
> Subject: {Spam} Re: [Finale] OT: historical use of C clefs for voice parts
> To: finale@shsu.edu
> Date: Sunday, November 21, 2010, 1:24 PM
> I understand the use of clefs to
> transpose from concert pitch music to
> the differently keyed transposing instruments, but is there
> a chart
> somewhere which does things in reverse?
>
> So that looking at a part for F horn, for example, which is
> printed in
> the treble clef, what clef would one use to show what the
> concert pitch
> note is?
>
> David H. Bailey
>
>
> On 11/20/2010 12:54 PM, Allen Fisher wrote:
> > My trumpet teacher at Ohio State in the early 1990's
> insisted that all his students learn clefs in order to
> transpose on sight. Drives all my friends nuts... :)
> >
> > Allen
> >
> > On 6 Nov, 2010, at 1:22 PM, John Howell wrote:
> >
> >> As a bonus, once you have learned to use the
> entire system of movable clefs, they are incredibly useful
> for transposing music. Arthur Squires, who sang tenor
> with New York Pro Musica, had dead perfect pitch and could
> not sing music that was not in the key they were singing in,
> BUT he read the clefs and used them to transposed mentally.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ___
> > Finale mailing list
> > Finale@shsu.edu
> > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> David H. Bailey
> dhbai...@davidbaileymusicstudio.com
> ___
> Finale mailing list
> Finale@shsu.edu
> http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
>
___
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Re: {Spam} Re: [Finale] OT: historical use of C clefs for voice parts
Thanks -- that's a big start. I remember seeing a horn method/exercise
book by Lorenzo Sansone years ago which had a full-page list of all the
clefs and the transpositions they were good for but like a fool I
neglected to photocopy it when I had the chance, and I don't live near a
music store which has the various Sansone books for me to locate the
correct one and on-line they're too expensive to buy them all hoping to
find that chart again.
Thanks,
David H. Bailey
On 11/21/2010 7:52 AM, Klaus Smedegaard Bjerre wrote:
C clef on the second line from the bottom equals horn in F. Add one flat.
Bass clef octave up equals horn in E (add 4 sharps) or horn in Eb (add 3 flats).
Alto clef equals horn in D (add 2 sharps) or horn in Db (add 5 flats).
Treble clef 8bassa equals horn in C.
Tenor clef equals horn in B natural (add 5 sharps - Brahms calls this Horn in
tiefes H or something the like). Or it equals horn in Bb basso (ad 2 flats).
Klaus, who will rather transpose than read C clefs
--- On Sun, 11/21/10, David H. Bailey
wrote:
From: David H. Bailey
Subject: {Spam} Re: [Finale] OT: historical use of C clefs for voice parts
To: finale@shsu.edu
Date: Sunday, November 21, 2010, 1:24 PM
I understand the use of clefs to
transpose from concert pitch music to
the differently keyed transposing instruments, but is there
a chart
somewhere which does things in reverse?
So that looking at a part for F horn, for example, which is
printed in
the treble clef, what clef would one use to show what the
concert pitch
note is?
David H. Bailey
On 11/20/2010 12:54 PM, Allen Fisher wrote:
My trumpet teacher at Ohio State in the early 1990's
insisted that all his students learn clefs in order to
transpose on sight. Drives all my friends nuts... :)
Allen
On 6 Nov, 2010, at 1:22 PM, John Howell wrote:
As a bonus, once you have learned to use the
entire system of movable clefs, they are incredibly useful
for transposing music. Arthur Squires, who sang tenor
with New York Pro Musica, had dead perfect pitch and could
not sing music that was not in the key they were singing in,
BUT he read the clefs and used them to transposed mentally.
___
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--
David H. Bailey
dhbai...@davidbaileymusicstudio.com
___
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Finale@shsu.edu
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___
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Finale@shsu.edu
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--
David H. Bailey
dhbai...@davidbaileymusicstudio.com
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Re: {Spam} Re: [Finale] OT: historical use of C clefs for voice parts
At 7:24 AM -0500 11/21/10, David H. Bailey wrote: I understand the use of clefs to transpose from concert pitch music to the differently keyed transposing instruments, but is there a chart somewhere which does things in reverse? So that looking at a part for F horn, for example, which is printed in the treble clef, what clef would one use to show what the concert pitch note is? Not sure what you mean by "in reverse," David, but for the example you give both F horn and English horn--any F instrument, actually--you imagine its being in mezzo-soprano clef: middle C on the 2nd line. And in fact I DO think that way when I enter horn notes directly into a transposed score. For Eb alto sax I think bass clef, but have to remember the octave transposition. The one I've never quite figured out a trick for is Clarinet in A. It's just a minor third transposition, and shouldn't be that difficult, but my mind just doesn't wrap around it. Let's see, a written C5 sounds A4, so I need a clef that puts A4 on the 3rd space. French violin clef doesn't work. It has to be in the other direction. AHA!!! Soprano clef is the answer!!! (Middle C on the bottom line.) It's just that that's one clef I haven't used much, since most early music is more likely to use alto and tenor clefs. But Bach used it all the time. I will now remember that (and try to figure out the key signature adjustment-- +3 sharps, I think). John -- John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music Virginia Tech Department of Music College of Liberal Arts & Human Sciences Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html "We never play anything the same way once." Shelly Manne's definition of jazz musicians. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: {Spam} Re: [Finale] OT: historical use of C clefs for voice parts
At 6:46 AM -0500 11/22/10, David H. Bailey wrote: What I meant by "in reverse" is that if I'm looking at a written F in an F horn part, I can use the mezzo-soprano clef to get the concert pitch note (Bb). But what if I'm looking at a concert pitch score, how do I figure out what note the F horn should play, using clefs? Ahhh. Thanks! That makes good sense. I guess my confusion was because I almost never look at a concert pitch score if I have a choice! So I'm looking at a printed Bb but need to find a clef that will show me that as an F. I guess the baritone clef would do the trick. To avoid confusion, let's assume that you mean concert Bb4, which should be notated as an F5 (5th line) for horn in F. (Or to be perfectly clear, should be notated on the top line, since part of the confusion is in ASSUMING note values for the lines and spaces, and those CHANGE with each alternate clef.) So no, baritone clef (F3 on the 3rd line) wouldn't work, since the 5th line would then be C4, not Bb3. The problem is that both notes are on lines, so you can't use any C clef (since F will be on a space).In fact I can't make my mind work that way, so I'm not sure it CAN be done with the available clefs. But along with all this clef stuff, one needs to also remember the "add 1 flat when going from F-horn to concert pitch" and "remove 1 flat when going from concert pitch to F horn." That makes all the various rules regarding the use of clefs pretty daunting to learn and remember. LEARNING the system, and learning to THINK in the different clefs rather than having to stop and think and decode them, is indeed daunting. So is most everything in music, if you stop to think about it, until AFTER you've learned it. THEN, and only then, is it easy to work with. I'm about halfway there with the movable clefs, since I didn't learn them until grad school, and that's really much too late. I find it much easier to think of transposition in a more fixed manner: F on an F horn equals Bb in concert pitch. Doesn't matter which end of that statement I'm coming from, since the equality works both ways. And it doesn't matter whether the Bb is because of the key signature or because of an accidental, the equality still applies. Yes, I think most of us think that way. But the clef system wasn't originated to make transposition easy. That's just a useful side effect. It was originated in order to keep most of the notes in Guido's system of chant notation within the staff, to make it easier for monks copying music with feathers!!! John -- John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music Virginia Tech Department of Music College of Liberal Arts & Human Sciences Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html "We never play anything the same way once." Shelly Manne's definition of jazz musicians. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: {Spam} Re: [Finale] OT: historical use of C clefs for voice parts
I must say, I transpose by solfège (scale degree.) If I see a horn part, say
for F horn with no key signature, I see a C then I know it's the first scale
degree of the key I'm in, or F. If I see a D#, then I know it's the raised 2nd
degree of the key I'm in, so G#. No transposition can throw me this way! (if I
get the octave correct!)
While I read alto and tenor clefs almost as well as bass or treble, I have so
little experience with the other clefs that it would slow me down immeasurably.
I have nothing but respect for those among you who read them easily!
christopher
- Original Message -
From: John Howell
Date: Monday, November 22, 2010 1:17 pm
Subject: Re: {Spam} Re: [Finale] OT: historical use of C clefs for voice parts
To: "David H. Bailey" , finale@shsu.edu
> At 6:46 AM -0500 11/22/10, David H. Bailey wrote:
> >
> >What I meant by "in reverse" is that if I'm looking at a
> written F
> >in an F horn part, I can use the mezzo-soprano clef to get the
> >concert pitch note (Bb). But what if I'm looking at a
> concert pitch
> >score, how do I figure out what note the F horn should play,
> using
> >clefs?
>
> Ahhh. Thanks! That makes good sense. I guess
> my confusion was
> because I almost never look at a concert pitch score if I have a
> choice!
>
> >So I'm looking at a printed Bb but need to find a clef that
> will
> >show me that as an F. I guess the baritone clef would do
> the trick.
>
> To avoid confusion, let's assume that you mean concert Bb4,
> which
> should be notated as an F5 (5th line) for horn in F. (Or
> to be
> perfectly clear, should be notated on the top line, since part
> of the
> confusion is in ASSUMING note values for the lines and spaces,
> and
> those CHANGE with each alternate clef.) So no, baritone
> clef (F3 on
> the 3rd line) wouldn't work, since the 5th line would then be
> C4, not
> Bb3. The problem is that both notes are on lines, so you
> can't use
> any C clef (since F will be on a space).In
> fact I can't make my
> mind work that way, so I'm not sure it CAN be done with the
> available
> clefs.
>
> >But along with all this clef stuff, one needs to also remember
> the
> >"add 1 flat when going from F-horn to concert pitch" and
> "remove 1
> >flat when going from concert pitch to F horn." That makes
> all the
> >various rules regarding the use of clefs pretty daunting to
> learn
> >and remember.
>
> LEARNING the system, and learning to THINK in the different
> clefs
> rather than having to stop and think and decode them, is indeed
> daunting. So is most everything in music, if you stop to
> think about
> it, until AFTER you've learned it. THEN, and only then, is
> it easy
> to work with. I'm about halfway there with the movable
> clefs, since
> I didn't learn them until grad school, and that's really much
> too
> late.
>
> >
> >I find it much easier to think of transposition in a more fixed
> >manner: F on an F horn equals Bb in concert pitch.
> Doesn't matter
> >which end of that statement I'm coming from, since the equality
> >works both ways. And it doesn't matter whether the Bb is
> because of
> >the key signature or because of an accidental, the equality
> still
> >applies.
>
> Yes, I think most of us think that way. But the clef
> system wasn't
> originated to make transposition easy. That's just a
> useful side
> effect. It was originated in order to keep most of the
> notes in
> Guido's system of chant notation within the staff, to make it
> easier
> for monks copying music with feathers!!!
>
> John
>
>
> --
> John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music
> Virginia Tech Department of Music
> College of Liberal Arts & Human Sciences
> Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240
> Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034
> (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu)
> http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html
>
> "We never play anything the same way once." Shelly Manne's
> definitionof jazz musicians.
> ___
> Finale mailing list
> Finale@shsu.edu
> http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
___
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Re: {Spam} Re: [Finale] OT: historical use of C clefs for voice parts
What method do you use if the horn part doesn't have a key signature?
On Mon, Nov 22, 2010 at 11:01 AM, wrote:
> I must say, I transpose by solfège (scale degree.) If I see a horn part,
> say for F horn with no key signature, I see a C then I know it's the first
> scale degree of the key I'm in, or F. If I see a D#, then I know it's the
> raised 2nd degree of the key I'm in, so G#. No transposition can throw me
> this way! (if I get the octave correct!)
>
> While I read alto and tenor clefs almost as well as bass or treble, I have
> so little experience with the other clefs that it would slow me down
> immeasurably. I have nothing but respect for those among you who read them
> easily!
>
> christopher
>
> - Original Message -
> From: John Howell
> Date: Monday, November 22, 2010 1:17 pm
> Subject: Re: {Spam} Re: [Finale] OT: historical use of C clefs for voice
> parts
> To: "David H. Bailey" ,
> finale@shsu.edu
>
> > At 6:46 AM -0500 11/22/10, David H. Bailey wrote:
> > >
> > >What I meant by "in reverse" is that if I'm looking at a
> > written F
> > >in an F horn part, I can use the mezzo-soprano clef to get the
> > >concert pitch note (Bb). But what if I'm looking at a
> > concert pitch
> > >score, how do I figure out what note the F horn should play,
> > using
> > >clefs?
> >
> > Ahhh. Thanks! That makes good sense. I guess
> > my confusion was
> > because I almost never look at a concert pitch score if I have a
> > choice!
> >
> > >So I'm looking at a printed Bb but need to find a clef that
> > will
> > >show me that as an F. I guess the baritone clef would do
> > the trick.
> >
> > To avoid confusion, let's assume that you mean concert Bb4,
> > which
> > should be notated as an F5 (5th line) for horn in F. (Or
> > to be
> > perfectly clear, should be notated on the top line, since part
> > of the
> > confusion is in ASSUMING note values for the lines and spaces,
> > and
> > those CHANGE with each alternate clef.) So no, baritone
> > clef (F3 on
> > the 3rd line) wouldn't work, since the 5th line would then be
> > C4, not
> > Bb3. The problem is that both notes are on lines, so you
> > can't use
> > any C clef (since F will be on a space).In
> > fact I can't make my
> > mind work that way, so I'm not sure it CAN be done with the
> > available
> > clefs.
> >
> > >But along with all this clef stuff, one needs to also remember
> > the
> > >"add 1 flat when going from F-horn to concert pitch" and
> > "remove 1
> > >flat when going from concert pitch to F horn." That makes
> > all the
> > >various rules regarding the use of clefs pretty daunting to
> > learn
> > >and remember.
> >
> > LEARNING the system, and learning to THINK in the different
> > clefs
> > rather than having to stop and think and decode them, is indeed
> > daunting. So is most everything in music, if you stop to
> > think about
> > it, until AFTER you've learned it. THEN, and only then, is
> > it easy
> > to work with. I'm about halfway there with the movable
> > clefs, since
> > I didn't learn them until grad school, and that's really much
> > too
> > late.
> >
> > >
> > >I find it much easier to think of transposition in a more fixed
> > >manner: F on an F horn equals Bb in concert pitch.
> > Doesn't matter
> > >which end of that statement I'm coming from, since the equality
> > >works both ways. And it doesn't matter whether the Bb is
> > because of
> > >the key signature or because of an accidental, the equality
> > still
> > >applies.
> >
> > Yes, I think most of us think that way. But the clef
> > system wasn't
> > originated to make transposition easy. That's just a
> > useful side
> > effect. It was originated in order to keep most of the
> > notes in
> > Guido's system of chant notation within the staff, to make it
> > easier
> > for monks copying music with feathers!!!
> >
> > John
> >
> >
> > --
> > John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music
> > Virginia Tech Department of Music
> > College of Liberal Arts & Human Sciences
> > Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240
> > Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034
> > (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu)
> > http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html
> >
> > "We never play anything the same way once." Shelly Manne's
> > definitionof jazz musicians.
> > ___
> > Finale mailing list
> > Finale@shsu.edu
> > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
> ___
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Re: {Spam} Re: [Finale] OT: historical use of C clefs for voice parts
My method doesn't change. I assume the horn's key signature is C if it doesn't
have one, and if it's Horn in E, and the notes written are C D E, that's the
1st, 2nd and 3rd degrees of E major, or E F# G#. Never fails (though it gets a
little slow in 16th note passages...)
Christopher
- Original Message -
From: Ryan
Date: Monday, November 22, 2010 2:56 pm
Subject: Re: {Spam} Re: [Finale] OT: historical use of C clefs for voice parts
To: finale@shsu.edu
> What method do you use if the horn part doesn't have a key signature?
>
> On Mon, Nov 22, 2010 at 11:01 AM,
> wrote:
>
> > I must say, I transpose by solfège (scale degree.) If I see a
> horn part,
> > say for F horn with no key signature, I see a C then I know
> it's the first
> > scale degree of the key I'm in, or F. If I see a D#, then I
> know it's the
> > raised 2nd degree of the key I'm in, so G#. No transposition
> can throw me
> > this way! (if I get the octave correct!)
> >
> > While I read alto and tenor clefs almost as well as bass or
> treble, I have
> > so little experience with the other clefs that it would slow
> me down
> > immeasurably. I have nothing but respect for those among you
> who read them
> > easily!
> >
> > christopher
> >
> > - Original Message -
> > From: John Howell
> > Date: Monday, November 22, 2010 1:17 pm
> > Subject: Re: {Spam} Re: [Finale] OT: historical use of C clefs
> for voice
> > parts
> > To: "David H. Bailey" ,
> > finale@shsu.edu
> >
> > > At 6:46 AM -0500 11/22/10, David H. Bailey wrote:
> > > >
> > > >What I meant by "in reverse" is that if I'm looking at a
> > > written F
> > > >in an F horn part, I can use the mezzo-soprano clef to get the
> > > >concert pitch note (Bb). But what if I'm looking at a
> > > concert pitch
> > > >score, how do I figure out what note the F horn should play,
> > > using
> > > >clefs?
> > >
> > > Ahhh. Thanks! That makes good sense. I guess
> > > my confusion was
> > > because I almost never look at a concert pitch score if I
> have a
> > > choice!
> > >
> > > >So I'm looking at a printed Bb but need to find a clef that
> > > will
> > > >show me that as an F. I guess the baritone clef would do
> > > the trick.
> > >
> > > To avoid confusion, let's assume that you mean concert Bb4,
> > > which
> > > should be notated as an F5 (5th line) for horn in F. (Or
> > > to be
> > > perfectly clear, should be notated on the top line, since part
> > > of the
> > > confusion is in ASSUMING note values for the lines and spaces,
> > > and
> > > those CHANGE with each alternate clef.) So no, baritone
> > > clef (F3 on
> > > the 3rd line) wouldn't work, since the 5th line would then be
> > > C4, not
> > > Bb3. The problem is that both notes are on lines, so you
> > > can't use
> > > any C clef (since F will be on a space).In
> > > fact I can't make my
> > > mind work that way, so I'm not sure it CAN be done with the
> > > available
> > > clefs.
> > >
> > > >But along with all this clef stuff, one needs to also remember
> > > the
> > > >"add 1 flat when going from F-horn to concert pitch" and
> > > "remove 1
> > > >flat when going from concert pitch to F horn." That makes
> > > all the
> > > >various rules regarding the use of clefs pretty daunting to
> > > learn
> > > >and remember.
> > >
> > > LEARNING the system, and learning to THINK in the different
> > > clefs
> > > rather than having to stop and think and decode them, is indeed
> > > daunting. So is most everything in music, if you stop to
> > > think about
> > > it, until AFTER you've learned it. THEN, and only
> then, is
> > > it easy
> > > to work with. I'm about halfway there with the movable
> > > clefs, since
> > > I didn't learn them until grad school, and that's really much
> > > too
> > > late.
> > >
> > > >
> > > >I find it much easier to think of transposition in a more fixed
> > > >manner: F on an F horn equals Bb in concert pitch.
> > > Doesn't matter
> > > >which end of that statement I
{Spam} Re: {Spam} Re: [Finale] OT: historical use of C clefs for voice parts
On 11/21/2010 1:43 PM, John Howell wrote: At 7:24 AM -0500 11/21/10, David H. Bailey wrote: I understand the use of clefs to transpose from concert pitch music to the differently keyed transposing instruments, but is there a chart somewhere which does things in reverse? So that looking at a part for F horn, for example, which is printed in the treble clef, what clef would one use to show what the concert pitch note is? Not sure what you mean by "in reverse," David, but for the example you give both F horn and English horn--any F instrument, actually--you imagine its being in mezzo-soprano clef: middle C on the 2nd line. And in fact I DO think that way when I enter horn notes directly into a transposed score. For Eb alto sax I think bass clef, but have to remember the octave transposition. What I meant by "in reverse" is that if I'm looking at a written F in an F horn part, I can use the mezzo-soprano clef to get the concert pitch note (Bb). But what if I'm looking at a concert pitch score, how do I figure out what note the F horn should play, using clefs? So I'm looking at a printed Bb but need to find a clef that will show me that as an F. I guess the baritone clef would do the trick. But along with all this clef stuff, one needs to also remember the "add 1 flat when going from F-horn to concert pitch" and "remove 1 flat when going from concert pitch to F horn." That makes all the various rules regarding the use of clefs pretty daunting to learn and remember. I find it much easier to think of transposition in a more fixed manner: F on an F horn equals Bb in concert pitch. Doesn't matter which end of that statement I'm coming from, since the equality works both ways. And it doesn't matter whether the Bb is because of the key signature or because of an accidental, the equality still applies. Given the limited number of common transpositions (instrument in Eb, instrument in F, instrument in A, instrument in G) it's not that hard to remember them. For instruments a whole step away from concert pitch (Bb, D) it's either up a whole step or down a whole step, which has always been easy for me to work with. And when I draw a blank I go back to "instrument in G means that when it plays what it thinks is a C, it's actually a G" and get my bearings that way. -- David H. Bailey dhbai...@davidbaileymusicstudio.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
