Re: [Finale] Question on Current Finale Versions Lyrics
At 10:24 PM -0800 1/22/10, Mark D Lew wrote: On Jan 22, 2010, at 5:13 PM, John Howell wrote: No way, not even on a bet! But I can say that of the notation programs I've used, Sibelius has the best lyrics handling hands down, both the easiest to enter and the best to look at by default. Just curious. Supposing Sibelius does put syllables not where you want them. Is the process of tweaking them easier, harder or the same as in Finale? Good question, and I've never tried! Just did, though, and it was extremely easy. Just select a syllable and move left or right with the arrow keys. The notes did not move. The notes do move, slightly, as the lyrics are entered, to space the syllables well, and the reason I'd never tried is that the default always looks pretty good. John -- John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music Virginia Tech Department of Music College of Liberal Arts & Human Sciences Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html "We never play anything the same way once." Shelly Manne's definition of jazz musicians. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Question on Current Finale Versions Lyrics
On 23 Jan 2010 at 1:39, David W. Fenton wrote: > Given that two of the four main players have to switch > instruments (one bass player doubles on treble, and for this concert, > I'm doubling on bass and tenor, after 18 months of playing tenor > exclusively), Actually, it's two of the bass players doubling on treble, and me doubling tenor and bass. Only one of our players will be playing only one instrument on this concert, i.e., bass. (I'm sure you're all thrilled to hear it!) -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Question on Current Finale Versions Lyrics
On 22 Jan 2010 at 22:20, Mark D Lew wrote: > On Jan 22, 2010, at 5:52 AM, David W. Fenton wrote: > > > I'm not that picky, though I don't produce the stunningly beautiful > > scores that folks like Dennis Collins do (I'm not sure I've ever seen > > your engraving, but my bet is you're much pickier than I am -- I'm > > just trying to get performable parts and scores ready before > > rehearsals begin). > > I have different standards for different contexts. I'm a big > believer in increasing readability for vocal music to be sung from > the page, even if it entails some non-standard practices. Also, I > find that readability and beauty are not always the same thing, and > in many contexts I'm willing to sacrifice the latter for the former. Well, I'm producing separate scores/parts for the singers and the viol players. Indeed, in some cases, I may not produce a score for singers/organist at all, as the source editions are fine. In the case of the Scheidt, the only reasons I produced an edition were: 1. to get the top two parts out of treble clef 8ba -- it's not that the players in the group can't read that just fine, it's just that when you're accustomed to playing in alto clef in that range, the one- step difference in line/space can mess with your head, and cause slips when the performance nerves kick in. We try to limit our bass viol parts to bass and alto clef, and the tenor viol parts to alto clef alone. Given that two of the four main players have to switch instruments (one bass player doubles on treble, and for this concert, I'm doubling on bass and tenor, after 18 months of playing tenor exclusively), keeping the clefs to the minimum is a good thing. Again, it's not that we *can't* do it, it's just that we'll play better if we don't have to play in 3 or 4 different clefs on 2 different instruments each (I've done it and it's not fun unless you have lots of time to get comfortable with the music). 2. since we're performing many of the pieces with 4 viols and the music involved has 4 independent viol parts plus the continuo line, the bottom bass viol player has to double as continuo bass, so in the case of the Scheidt, I was combining the continuo bass line (when the tutti group isn't playing, just the organ and singers) into a single part for the bass player (who happens to be me, and in this case has to tune the bottom string down a step to cello C, which I don't mind doing as it's just not that hard to deal with). In any event, there's no real reason that the singers would need to use my edition, except for the phrasing that's been incorporated (just breath marks to show where the phrases end). In the case of other pieces, my editions are more readable than the source editions, so I'm preparing separate scores for the singers/organist. For most of the pieces, the viols are playing from parts or from "half scores," where there's a part with a 2-system part with the top two or the bottom two parts. In other cases when the music has fewer or more parts and I have to do something different, but the point is, each piece is different and what I'm preparing is based on what takes the least work to get the best performance. Singers don't need to worry about page turns, but the organist does (though not as severely as viol players, since the organist can omit the bass line at the page turn and let the continuo viol player carry the load for a couple of beats). In some cases I'll produce a single score for singers and organist, and in others, I'll produce a kindergarten-sized score for the singers (joke), and a part for the organist that's got reduced-size staves above and decently-planned page turns. I often wonder how much work linked parts would save me, but I strongly doubt they'd save me that much work, as I'd still end up needing to create 2-4 different scores for different purposes. It's a good thing I like doing this, though the one disadvantage is that I have the frustration in early rehearsals that I know the music as a whole better than anyone else (even if I can't yet play my own part 100% reliably)! -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Question on Current Finale Versions Lyrics
On Jan 22, 2010, at 5:52 AM, David W. Fenton wrote: For a syllable that is attached to a note followed by another note (or several notes) lacking syllables, the width of the syllable should be allocated to all the notes available before the next syllable to the right. It looks pretty simple to me, actually (and I'm looking at it as a computer programmer...). I'm trying to think seriously about this and try to formulate the process that I regularly do by instinct and intuition, and this part is the hardest problem. If I can leave the music spacing undisturbed and fit the syllables comfortably by letting them overlap with neighboring note stacks, then of course that's the answer. But there are limits to how far I'd push a syllable that aren't simply "first this, then that". Frequently I'll want to compromise by nudging the syllables some and nudging the beat chart some. I know it when I see it, but I'm not sure how I'd describe the process. Is it a simple ratio of music perturbation to lyric perturbation? Maybe, but I don't think so. Here's another issue. If I've got four sixteenth notes grouped with a syllable on each, and three of the syllables are short ones that fit just fine but one has a long syllable that doesn't fit, then I have to add space. But I don't want to add space just around the one note and leave the other three as close as they were. Again, I want to compromise and spread all four sixteenth notes out, not exactly equally but closer to equal than to just giving space to the one with the fat syllable. Then once the notes are set, I'll nudge the syllables around between the four. One thing that will surely never make it into an algorithm is that I'm more willing to move a syllable in the direction that centers its vowel on the note than the opposite. So for example if the lyric is "three" I'm marginally more willing to nudge that leftward and less willing to nudge it rightward than I would be otherwise, and if the lyric is "eight" then vice versa. This isn't due to any prescriptive principle, but rather a pattern of following what I consider better readability. For similar reasons, I generally nudge any syllable ending with a comma or period to the left so that the letters alone are centered. (This latter *could* be built into the program's algorithm.) mdl ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Question on Current Finale Versions Lyrics
On Jan 22, 2010, at 5:13 PM, John Howell wrote: No way, not even on a bet! But I can say that of the notation programs I've used, Sibelius has the best lyrics handling hands down, both the easiest to enter and the best to look at by default. Just curious. Supposing Sibelius does put syllables not where you want them. Is the process of tweaking them easier, harder or the same as in Finale? mdl ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Question on Current Finale Versions Lyrics
On Jan 22, 2010, at 5:52 AM, David W. Fenton wrote: I'm not that picky, though I don't produce the stunningly beautiful scores that folks like Dennis Collins do (I'm not sure I've ever seen your engraving, but my bet is you're much pickier than I am -- I'm just trying to get performable parts and scores ready before rehearsals begin). I have different standards for different contexts. I'm a big believer in increasing readability for vocal music to be sung from the page, even if it entails some non-standard practices. Also, I find that readability and beauty are not always the same thing, and in many contexts I'm willing to sacrifice the latter for the former. mdl ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Question on Current Finale Versions Lyrics
At 8:23 PM -0500 1/22/10, David W. Fenton wrote: On 22 Jan 2010 at 20:13, John Howell wrote: At 12:24 AM -0800 1/22/10, Mark D Lew wrote: >On Jan 20, 2010, at 8:33 PM, David W. Fenton wrote: > >>Why isn't this fixed in Finale? Surely it's something Sibelius does >>by default, since it's so braindead wrong in Finale! > >Can you describe algorithmically what you think the fixed program should do? No way, not even on a bet! Isn't it actually quite easy to describe how melismas should be handled? But I can say that of the notation programs I've used, Sibelius has the best lyrics handling hands down, both the easiest to enter and the best to look at by default. So I guess my answer would be that the fixed program should do what Sibelius already does. Sibelius handles melismas without any problems? All I can say is that I haven't seen anything that I hated, which means its handling is pretty transparent. But I'll try something and let you know. John -- John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music Virginia Tech Department of Music College of Liberal Arts & Human Sciences Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html "We never play anything the same way once." Shelly Manne's definition of jazz musicians. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Question on Current Finale Versions Lyrics
On 22 Jan 2010 at 20:13, John Howell wrote: > At 12:24 AM -0800 1/22/10, Mark D Lew wrote: > >On Jan 20, 2010, at 8:33 PM, David W. Fenton wrote: > > > >>Why isn't this fixed in Finale? Surely it's something Sibelius does > >>by default, since it's so braindead wrong in Finale! > > > >Can you describe algorithmically what you think the fixed program should do? > > No way, not even on a bet! Isn't it actually quite easy to describe how melismas should be handled? > But I can say that of the notation > programs I've used, Sibelius has the best lyrics handling hands down, > both the easiest to enter and the best to look at by default. > > So I guess my answer would be that the fixed program should do what > Sibelius already does. Sibelius handles melismas without any problems? -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Question on Current Finale Versions Lyrics
At 12:24 AM -0800 1/22/10, Mark D Lew wrote: On Jan 20, 2010, at 8:33 PM, David W. Fenton wrote: Why isn't this fixed in Finale? Surely it's something Sibelius does by default, since it's so braindead wrong in Finale! Can you describe algorithmically what you think the fixed program should do? No way, not even on a bet! But I can say that of the notation programs I've used, Sibelius has the best lyrics handling hands down, both the easiest to enter and the best to look at by default. So I guess my answer would be that the fixed program should do what Sibelius already does. John -- John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music Virginia Tech Department of Music College of Liberal Arts & Human Sciences Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html "We never play anything the same way once." Shelly Manne's definition of jazz musicians. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Question on Current Finale Versions Lyrics
On 1/22/2010 9:03 AM, dc wrote: I can only second that request. Is there any place where one can officially do so? Well, you can submit something to the support people through http://makemusic.custhelp.com My feature request was made in January 2007; the reference number is 070322-041052. You can tell them that you're agreeing with the ideas in this request. Aaron. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Question on Current Finale Versions Lyrics
On 22 Jan 2010 at 11:05, dc wrote: > I wonder why they don't implement this feature. It would put them way ahead > of Sibelius for a change... How well does Sibelius do with lyrics spacing in melismas and otherwise? -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Question on Current Finale Versions Lyrics
On 22 Jan 2010 at 1:43, Mark D Lew wrote: > In the paragraph you're responding to, I was referring specifically > to music which is very melismatic, which is what I thought perhaps > David F was dealing with. The music I was working with was Samuel Scheidt. Here's the current unproofread score (unproofed for notes, layout is probably only going to be tweaked slightly): http://tearesofthemuses.com/Editions/Scores/Scheidt-Laudates/ It's a mix of syllabic and melismatic, and very crowded spacing (and very small) because I must fit the music on two pages per piece. We used an earlier messy draft, laid out in 10 minutes before I had to run to rehearsal, and it was good enough for the instrumentalists (and we've done this music before, so it's not unfamiliar territory), but this semester we're collaborating with two professional singers (as part of a grant from NYU -- see http://tearesofthemuses.com), and the materials for the singers have to be decent. I'll probably produce a "singer's score" that is larger and occupies 3 pages per piece. Of other music we're doing, I have to create an organist's score, too, so I'm ending up needing multiple layouts. It's a pain, but it's the only way to insure that everybody's on the same page in terms of our peformance editing (some of this is also done because of clef issues). -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Question on Current Finale Versions Lyrics
On 22 Jan 2010 at 0:24, Mark D Lew wrote: > On Jan 20, 2010, at 8:33 PM, David W. Fenton wrote: > > > Why isn't this fixed in Finale? Surely it's something Sibelius does > > by default, since it's so braindead wrong in Finale! > > Can you describe algorithmically what you think the fixed program > should do? For a syllable that is attached to a note followed by another note (or several notes) lacking syllables, the width of the syllable should be allocated to all the notes available before the next syllable to the right. It looks pretty simple to me, actually (and I'm looking at it as a computer programmer...). And if it were in a plugin, I wouldn't mind that, either (remember that automatic syllable extensions were not introduced until Finale 2004, so I'm using the plugin for that, and I'm fine with it, even though it makes mistakes that have to be corrected -- it's still better than doing it manually). > My feeling about lyric spacing is that it's an artificial > intelligence type task which can't be easily formulized. Even if > they redid the algorithm so that it was only considered a collision > if the lyric collides with another lyric, as opposed to the > horizontal position of a note with no syllable, you're still going to > get sub-optimal results. I'm not that picky, though I don't produce the stunningly beautiful scores that folks like Dennis Collins do (I'm not sure I've ever seen your engraving, but my bet is you're much pickier than I am -- I'm just trying to get performable parts and scores ready before rehearsals begin). > I couldn't even describe a feature that would result in lyrics that I > wouldn't still go back and fuss with sometimes. (Though I could name > several small improvements) In my experience, it is only when I try to jam too much music into too little space that I get bad lyrics spacing. In doing editions for my viol consort, the preference is for two-page scores or parts (though three pages are fine for works with movement breaks, we don't do very many of those). -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Question on Current Finale Versions Lyrics
On 22 Jan 2010 at 0:17, Mark D Lew wrote: > On Jan 20, 2010, at 5:37 AM, David W. Fenton wrote: > > > I'm stuck working with Finale 2003, and am in the midst of doing a > > whole bunch of editions for my viol consort with lyrics. My annoyance > > is the whole issue with spacing of melismas -- i.e., if there's a run > > of 16ths, if the first has a syllable on it, the full space for the > > syllable is allocated to the first 16th, even though the 16ths should > > be spaced normally, because it's a melisma. > > I'm sorry I didn't notice this post earlier, David. If you're not > already done, I would recommend you try turning off music spacing for > lyrics, then respace the music, and see how that works for you. That's what I originally did, but I didn't like the spacing at all. Besides, some of the measures have melismas and syllabic passages mixed in, so that's unsatisfactory. I didn't try partial music selection for spacing, but it appears that music spacing does not honor partial measure selection, so that just wouldn't work. > (Options > Document Options > Music Spacing > uncheck the box for > Lyrics. In earlier versions, I think it was a separate menu item > called "Music Spacing Options".) > > As one who is fussy about spacing, I find that letting the program > space for lyrics, even when it's done "correctly", leaves much to be > desired. 99% of the default spacing is good enough for my standards. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Question on Current Finale Versions Lyrics
On 22 Jan 2010 at 8:26, dc wrote: > David W. Fenton écrit: > >It seems I'm out of luck on this, as I don't see any way to hide a > >syllable in WinFin 2003. > > My memory isn't good enough to recall when "hidden" characters were > introduced. Is this not a "Style" available (as italics, or bold, or > underline)? Ctrl+Shift+H is the keyboard shortcut. I don't see any capability to hide lyrics in Staff Style definition. > If hidding doesn't work, you can also reduce more or less drastically the > size of the font. A little bit more work yet if you change only the > melismatic syllables. [Ctrl+Shift+,] I did it the hard way, removing the offending syllable, respacing, then putting it back with click assignment. After one measure where this caused orphan hyphens, I changed to using Type in Score to replace the offending syllables with the | symbol, respacing, then typing the original syllables back in. This was much easier than the other method (the text in question is quite repetitive, and it was quite hard to find exactly the right repetition in the very hard-to- use click assignment dialog -- has that been improved any at all?). Hiding selected syllables would certainly be easier, but this is good enough if my creaky old Finale version won't support it. It's not like I encounter this problem very often -- my viol consort doesn't do a lot of Monteverdian music! -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Question on Current Finale Versions Lyrics
On 1/22/2010 3:17 AM, Mark D Lew wrote: algorithm looking at the lyric syllables at all. For such a piece, I'd space the entire thing with lyrics unchecked. Then if there are one or two measures where the lyrics collide, go back and respace just those measures with lyrics checked. This brings to mind a feature request I made a few years back: spacing styles, which could be applied to measures like staff styles. There are many instances where spacing as a document-wide setting is clearly inappropriate, and having to remember to (a) change the setting, (b) space the problem measures, and then (c) change the setting back is a hassle. We should be able to set the document spacing for something like "avoid lyric collisions" and then apply a style to melismatic measures with "avoid lyric collisions" unset. Then we could space the whole piece at once. This came up in my case when I was doing a piece which moved mostly in moderato or allegro quarter notes, but which had one section in largo 4/8. For that section, I wanted wider spacing to make the change to an eighth note pulse more obvious, and I had to go through the same gymnastics of remembering to manually space that section differently. Aaron. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Question on Current Finale Versions Lyrics
On Jan 22, 2010, at 1:02 AM, dc wrote: In most cases, if you have a decent point-size for your lyrics, ignoring the lyrics simply won't give you enough space to do things correctly. In other words, you won't have "one or two measures" where the lyrics collide, but more likely 90% of your measures. The music will simply be too tight, unless, of course, you have very generous values in the music spacing options, or, as I said, very small lyrics. In the paragraph you're responding to, I was referring specifically to music which is very melismatic, which is what I thought perhaps David F was dealing with. Another type of music where music spacing is best done with lyrics unchecked is where there's piano accompaniment that's consistently denser than the vocal line (eg, 16th notes in the piano against quarter notes in the voice). I have various other techniques for generating layout and measure widths for music that needs more space for lyrics (which I've discussed at length on this list, some time in the distant past). I certainly didn't mean to suggest I'd leave lyrics to collide nor that I'd shrink them to tiny size in order to avoid it. mdl ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Question on Current Finale Versions Lyrics
On Jan 20, 2010, at 8:33 PM, David W. Fenton wrote: Why isn't this fixed in Finale? Surely it's something Sibelius does by default, since it's so braindead wrong in Finale! Can you describe algorithmically what you think the fixed program should do? My feeling about lyric spacing is that it's an artificial intelligence type task which can't be easily formulized. Even if they redid the algorithm so that it was only considered a collision if the lyric collides with another lyric, as opposed to the horizontal position of a note with no syllable, you're still going to get sub-optimal results. I couldn't even describe a feature that would result in lyrics that I wouldn't still go back and fuss with sometimes. (Though I could name several small improvements) mdl ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Question on Current Finale Versions Lyrics
On Jan 20, 2010, at 5:37 AM, David W. Fenton wrote: I'm stuck working with Finale 2003, and am in the midst of doing a whole bunch of editions for my viol consort with lyrics. My annoyance is the whole issue with spacing of melismas -- i.e., if there's a run of 16ths, if the first has a syllable on it, the full space for the syllable is allocated to the first 16th, even though the 16ths should be spaced normally, because it's a melisma. I'm sorry I didn't notice this post earlier, David. If you're not already done, I would recommend you try turning off music spacing for lyrics, then respace the music, and see how that works for you. (Options > Document Options > Music Spacing > uncheck the box for Lyrics. In earlier versions, I think it was a separate menu item called "Music Spacing Options".) As one who is fussy about spacing, I find that letting the program space for lyrics, even when it's done "correctly", leaves much to be desired. To get the results I want, I generally go back and forth between having lyrics checked or unchecked in the Music Spacing Options. But honestly, I find that more often I'd rather turn it off and make space manually afterward than leave it on and have to undo ugly spacing. This is all the more true in music that is heavily melismatic, where for most of the piece you'd rather not have the music spacing algorithm looking at the lyric syllables at all. For such a piece, I'd space the entire thing with lyrics unchecked. Then if there are one or two measures where the lyrics collide, go back and respace just those measures with lyrics checked. mdl ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Question on Current Finale Versions Lyrics
On 21 Jan 2010 at 6:45, dc wrote: > David W. Fenton écrit: > >This is what I did, but the spacing was not quite what I'd have > >preferred. > > You'll get much better results by hidding only the syllables on melismas. > And more work, of course. It seems I'm out of luck on this, as I don't see any way to hide a syllable in WinFin 2003. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Question on Current Finale Versions Lyrics
On 20 Jan 2010 at 9:43, Harold Owen wrote: > The way I have dealt with the problem in Finale 2010 is to > exclude lyrics in music spacing. This is what I did, but the spacing was not quite what I'd have preferred. Why isn't this fixed in Finale? Surely it's something Sibelius does by default, since it's so braindead wrong in Finale! -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Question on Current Finale Versions Lyrics, now TGTools
For some reason I can't get the word extensions back after I use the New Spacing feature if I have Smart Word Extensions turned on. On Wed, Jan 20, 2010 at 10:56 AM, dc wrote: > dc écrit: > > Ryan écrit: >> >>> So you're not using the "Smart Word Extensions"? Unless I'm missing >>> something, the TG Tools New Spacing feature doesn't work with lyrics >>> unless >>> it's turned off. >>> >> >> Right. I use neither smart word extensions nor smart hyphens. >> > > But I do use them for one publisher who wants them turned on, and still use > TGTools New Spacing. Where's the problem? You can always update them at a > later stage. > > > Dennis > > > > > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Question on Current Finale Versions Lyrics, now TGTools
So you're not using the "Smart Word Extensions"? Unless I'm missing something, the TG Tools New Spacing feature doesn't work with lyrics unless it's turned off. On Wed, Jan 20, 2010 at 10:10 AM, dc wrote: > Ryan écrit: > > After using TG Tools New Spacing, how do you get back the word extension >> lines for the melismas? >> > > I don't need to get them "back" because I haven't added them yet. I do that > at a later stage, once I'm finished tweaking the spacing and checking > everything, because any changes would affect the word extensions. And I use > the TGTools plug-in for the word extensions. > > > Dennis > > > > > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Question on Current Finale Versions Lyrics
Dear David, No, it isn't. The way I have dealt with the problem in Finale 2010 is to exclude lyrics in music spacing. When there is crowding of lyrics I use "Adjust Syllables" in the Lyrics Tool and nudge the syllables to suit the occasion. It would be nice if there were a simple way to toggle the check for lyrics in music spacing. Hal I'm stuck working with Finale 2003, and am in the midst of doing a whole bunch of editions for my viol consort with lyrics. My annoyance is the whole issue with spacing of melismas -- i.e., if there's a run of 16ths, if the first has a syllable on it, the full space for the syllable is allocated to the first 16th, even though the 16ths should be spaced normally, because it's a melisma. Is that fixed in current Finale versions? If so, that alone would save me anough time to justify the upgrade! -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale -- Harold Owen 1375 Olive Street #402, Eugene, OR 97401 mailto:hjo...@uoregon.edu Visit my web site at: http://uoregon.edu/~hjowen/ FAX: (509) 461-3608 ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Question on Current Finale Versions Lyrics
After using TG Tools New Spacing, how do you get back the word extension lines for the melismas? On Wed, Jan 20, 2010 at 6:02 AM, dc wrote: > David W. Fenton écrit: > > I'm stuck working with Finale 2003, and am in the midst of doing a >> whole bunch of editions for my viol consort with lyrics. My annoyance >> is the whole issue with spacing of melismas -- i.e., if there's a run >> of 16ths, if the first has a syllable on it, the full space for the >> syllable is allocated to the first 16th, even though the 16ths should >> be spaced normally, because it's a melisma. >> >> Is that fixed in current Finale versions? If so, that alone would >> save me anough time to justify the upgrade! >> > > I doubt it. > > But you can use TGTools New Spacing to correct this... "feature" of Finale. > > Without the plug-in, the easiest workaround for me is to do the spacing a > first time, then redo after "hiding" all the lyrics under melismas (and then > unhiding them, of course). > > Dennis > > > > > > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Question on Current Finale Versions Lyrics
As DC pointed out, this has not changed in the default behaviour of Finale recently. His solution seems to be better than mine. If you don't have TG Tools, then you can respace JUST the measures with melismas after turning off collisions with lyrics. I do this with chord symbols a lot, as TG Tools doesn't have this capability with chords, only with lyrics. Christopher On Wed Jan 20, at WednesdayJan 20 8:37 AM, David W. Fenton wrote: I'm stuck working with Finale 2003, and am in the midst of doing a whole bunch of editions for my viol consort with lyrics. My annoyance is the whole issue with spacing of melismas -- i.e., if there's a run of 16ths, if the first has a syllable on it, the full space for the syllable is allocated to the first 16th, even though the 16ths should be spaced normally, because it's a melisma. Is that fixed in current Finale versions? If so, that alone would save me anough time to justify the upgrade! -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
[Finale] Question on Current Finale Versions Lyrics
I'm stuck working with Finale 2003, and am in the midst of doing a whole bunch of editions for my viol consort with lyrics. My annoyance is the whole issue with spacing of melismas -- i.e., if there's a run of 16ths, if the first has a syllable on it, the full space for the syllable is allocated to the first 16th, even though the 16ths should be spaced normally, because it's a melisma. Is that fixed in current Finale versions? If so, that alone would save me anough time to justify the upgrade! -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
