Re: [Finale] Repeat Brackets
On Jul 10, 2004, at 2:20 AM, dhbailey wrote: I sent a bug report to [EMAIL PROTECTED] yesterday morning and there has been no response yet. It might help if you send a bug report to [EMAIL PROTECTED] so they can see it really is a problem with some internal aspect of the program, not just the windows version. Well, I can hardly send a bug report when I don't actually experience the alleged bug. Certainly not for something like this which I can barely even see as really being a problem. I mean, what's the absolute worst you're looking at here? You have to drag some hooks up to zero in an unusual case. Sure, it's a nuisance, but it's hardly earth-shattering, and it's not like you're going to have more than a handful of them in one piece, if even that. It's really two different problems -- back hook setting to zero has no effect on the real back hook that comes with the repeat sign (but it DOES have an effect if you want to add a back hook to the line which opens the ending and has the number under it), [...] Whoa, wait a minute! What you're describing is exactly what I experience. I see now that you and I don't have different behavior at all. It's just that you described it differently and I misunderstood. What Finale calls the back hook is the right hook on the left-half-bracket (ie, the one that has the number under it). The right-half-bracket (ie, the one attached to the repeat bar) does not have a back hook. The thing that you're calling the real back hook isn't a back hook at all -- not by Finale's definition of the term anyway. It's a front hook. Now if you want to say that Finale's back hook is a stupid and confusing term, OK, I'll grant you that, but the point is that what you're describing here is Finale behaving exactly as it should. and then the problem with Finale changing the type of repeat we install if both opening bracket and repeat sign are in the same measure. Neither of these problems will probably be a nuisance to most Finale users, but they are aggravating when you DO need to create endings differently from what Finale prescribes. As I understand it, there is one problem here, and that is that if you put a repeat bar without bracket, and then add a left-half-bracket to the same bar, Finale will automatically create a right-half-bracket and attach it to the repeat bar. OK, this is stupid on Finale's part, because even though you probably do want the right-half-bracket most of the time, you could just as easily have chosen it yourself and you don't need Finale doing it for you, and if for some reason you really do want a repeat bar with a left-half-bracket only, you ought to be able to have that. But this occurs ONLY in a situation where you have a one-measure second ending which has a repeat bar at the end, and you want the bracket to have a hook on the left but not on the right. If that's what you want, then you will have to select the hook and nudge it up until it's down to zero length. Now I'm not trying to make excuses for Finale's quirky behavior here, but this strikes me as an extraordinarily petty complaint. It only comes up when you want to do something non-standard, it's something which by its nature isn't going to happen numerous times, and the workaround takes all of about 15 seconds. Besides that, as far as I can tell, no one here has ever actually wanted this result anyway. This discussion arose when Giovanni had a complaint about double brackets. Unless I'm mistaken, he doesn't actually want an open-ended bracket over the repeat bar, which is what we've discovered can't be done by default. I'm not 100% sure, but I believe he said he does want the hook on the right, but he was confused because he was getting two of them. In other words, he's got the back hook from the left-half-bracket and the front hook from the right-half-bracket and for whatever reason they are misaligned. If I'm reading that right, then his problem is entirely different, and it's solved by simply getting rid of the back hook altogether by zeroing it out in the default settings (which I think should be standard practice for anyone who wants standard normal repeat brackets anyway). mdl ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Repeat Brackets
To do what you want (i.e. just have the left bracket with the number) you'll need to enter two repeats in the same measure: 1) the two dots with double bar (not with a bracket over it) 2) the opening bracket as you would to indicate the start of the second ending. David David, By selecting the Repeat Tool and clicking a measure, the Repeat Selection dialog box appears: there are, at the top, four icons you can select. I tried to do what you suggested by selecting the second icon from the left [the two dots with double bar (not with a bracket over it)], and then the first icon from the right [the opening bracket as you would to indicate the start of the second]. I'll call these Icon B and icon D. This is what i get on my Mac with Fin 2k4c: 1. Only icon B selected: two dots with double bar and no bracket 2. Only icon D selected: a single bracket with editable text 3. Selecting B first then D: a double bracket appears, with the right bracket not having a left hook and the editable text attached to the left bracket 4. Selecting D first then B: the single D bracket becomes double when selecting the B icon: same result as where 3. It seems there is no way to get out from this situation; does anyone use alternate solutions? Any particular plugin? Giovanni Andreani ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Repeat Brackets
On Jul 9, 2004, at 12:31 AM, Giovanni Andreani wrote: This is what i get on my Mac with Fin 2k4c: 1. Only icon B selected: two dots with double bar and no bracket 2. Only icon D selected: a single bracket with editable text 3. Selecting B first then D: a double bracket appears, with the right bracket not having a left hook and the editable text attached to the left bracket 4. Selecting D first then B: the single D bracket becomes double when selecting the B icon: same result as where 3. It seems there is no way to get out from this situation; does anyone use alternate solutions? Any particular plugin? I still don't understand what the problem is. For 1st endings, you want both B and D. Why does it matter if the bracket is double? The two horizonal lines overlap exactly and it appears fine, right? mdl ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Repeat Brackets
On Jul 9, 2004, at 12:31 AM, Giovanni Andreani wrote: This is what i get on my Mac with Fin 2k4c: 1. Only icon B selected: two dots with double bar and no bracket 2. Only icon D selected: a single bracket with editable text 3. Selecting B first then D: a double bracket appears, with the right bracket not having a left hook and the editable text attached to the left bracket 4. Selecting D first then B: the single D bracket becomes double when selecting the B icon: same result as where 3. It seems there is no way to get out from this situation; does anyone use alternate solutions? Any particular plugin? I still don't understand what the problem is. For 1st endings, you want both B and D. Why does it matter if the bracket is double? The two horizonal lines overlap exactly and it appears fine, right? mdl If you want to manually adjust, lets say, the right hook, dragging it's handle to one side will not drag the other bracket's handle, so, the overlapping is not always guaranteed. I still 'ld like to know what the sense of two overlapped brackets is. Giovanni Andreani ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Repeat Brackets
On Jul 9, 2004, at 12:56 AM, Giovanni Andreani wrote: If you want to manually adjust, lets say, the right hook, dragging it's handle to one side will not drag the other bracket's handle, so, the overlapping is not always guaranteed. The overlapping of the horizontal line always works. The vertical lines don't need to overlap. If you don't want a right hook on the left bracket, go into Document Settings Repeat Endings, and make sure the value for Length of Back Hook is zero. I already suggested that in a previous post, but perhaps you never saw that one. If that doesn't solve your hook problem, then again I don't understand what it is you're trying to describe. I still 'ld like to know what the sense of two overlapped brackets is. The sense of two separate brackets is that they have two different functions and you won't always want both. If your second ending continues on, then you'll want just the left bracket and no right bracket. If your first ending is several bars long, you'll want both but not in the same bar. Each bracket does its own kind of thing. If you don't want both, use just the one. (If the back hook length isn't zero by default in the templates, then I agree that's sort of silly, since more often than not you won't want a back hook, and it's easier to add one than get rid of one. But if so, that's a flaw of the templates, not the program. Lord knows there's plenty of other dumb settings in Coda's templates) mdl ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Repeat Brackets
Giovanni Andreani wrote: On Jul 9, 2004, at 12:31 AM, Giovanni Andreani wrote: This is what i get on my Mac with Fin 2k4c: 1. Only icon B selected: two dots with double bar and no bracket 2. Only icon D selected: a single bracket with editable text 3. Selecting B first then D: a double bracket appears, with the right bracket not having a left hook and the editable text attached to the left bracket 4. Selecting D first then B: the single D bracket becomes double when selecting the B icon: same result as where 3. It seems there is no way to get out from this situation; does anyone use alternate solutions? Any particular plugin? I still don't understand what the problem is. For 1st endings, you want both B and D. Why does it matter if the bracket is double? The two horizonal lines overlap exactly and it appears fine, right? mdl If you want to manually adjust, lets say, the right hook, dragging it's handle to one side will not drag the other bracket's handle, so, the overlapping is not always guaranteed. I still 'ld like to know what the sense of two overlapped brackets is. The two overlapped brakets are merely there when you have only one measure in the first ending. But if you create a first ending of, for example, 5 measures, you put what you call icon B in the final measure of the ending and icon D in the first measure, you don't end up with a closing tail to the bracket. But if you use icon C in the 5th measure, you then don't have overlapping lines at all, since icon D's line is only one measure long and icon C's line is only one measure long, leaving 3 intervening measures with no line clearly indicating that they are part of the first ending. So you drag the two lines until the meet (my experience is that it is best to leave them overlapping some) and you have a complete ending bracket. I just experimented with my suggested solution and I hadn't tried it yet in 2004 before I suggested it to you -- how odd to have Finale change the repeat sign to icon C when you select icon B simply because it realizes you are creating a complete first ending. I hate it when programs don't do what I tell them to do, as if they are smarter than I or that I don't have the right to do things differently than their narrow programming paradigms have predicted. So if you don't want the two brackets (or the appearance of having two brackets, or the right hook at the end of the bracket) it seems that with Fin2004 we're stuck with having to drag the handle of the hook to make it appear not to be there. -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Repeat Brackets
...I hate it when programs don't do what I tell them to do, as if they are smarter than I or that I don't have the right to do things differently than their narrow programming paradigms have predicted. So if you don't want the two brackets (or the appearance of having two brackets, or the right hook at the end of the bracket) it seems that with Fin2004 we're stuck with having to drag the handle of the hook to make it appear not to be there. -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] And that's. with any chance, what I'll be doing Thank you Giovanni Andreani ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Repeat Brackets
At 1:49 AM -0700 7/09/04, Mark D Lew wrote: (If the back hook length isn't zero by default in the templates, then I agree that's sort of silly, since more often than not you won't want a back hook, and it's easier to add one than get rid of one. But if so, that's a flaw of the templates, not the program. Lord knows there's plenty of other dumb settings in Coda's templates) Make sure that you send any suggestions of improvements to odd template settings to MakeMusic, as they are trying to improve Finale's out-of-the-box usability (and rightly so!) I have already done so on several occasions, and lo and behold some of them were incorporated into later versions of Finale's defaults. Christopher ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Repeat Brackets
On Jul 9, 2004, at 3:30 AM, dhbailey wrote: I went to check out that setting for back hook length, since I don't like them most of the time, and to my shock and horror found that it IS set to zero! But, every time I place an ending, there IS a back hook. Wow, that's mighty strange. Maybe it's different in 2k4? Unless I'm still misunderstanding, I don't have this problem in Fin Mac 2k4. If I choose the first ending item for my repeat I get a left hook and no right hook, just as I'd expect. Having you tried playing with the back hook number there? You know, put in a large number, then a large negative number, etc., to see what the logic is. Does it have no effect at all? Maybe they're counting from a different position now and instead of entering zero you need to enter the negative of your front hook length or the bracket height or something like that. Or maybe there's some other separate setting that I've got changed and you don't? mdl ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Repeat Brackets
On Jul 9, 2004, at 3:26 AM, dhbailey wrote: I just experimented with my suggested solution and I hadn't tried it yet in 2004 before I suggested it to you -- how odd to have Finale change the repeat sign to icon C when you select icon B simply because it realizes you are creating a complete first ending. I hate it when programs don't do what I tell them to do, as if they are smarter than I or that I don't have the right to do things differently than their narrow programming paradigms have predicted. I just did this experiment, and I see I get the same result. That is: If you put a backward-repeat-without-bracket in a measure, and then in the same measure also put a first-ending item, then Finale automatically converts the backward-repeat-without-bracket into a backward-repeat-WITH-bracket. That is indeed strange. I hadn't noticed it before because I've never needed that particular combination. Whenever I've had both in the same bar, I wanted the closing bracket, so I always picked the with-bracket option in the first place. So is this the essence of the problem Giovanni was having which I could never quite understand? I can see that if you want the repeat bar with the dots and no hook at all, then it looks like you have to reduce the hook to zero individually. But I thought he was saying the problem was getting two separate hooks that don't line up and he really did want to keep one of them, in which case we're back to the Back Hook problem, which you're saying in 2k4 won't go away even if you set it to zero in the Options. I'm not having that problem in 2k2. mdl ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Repeat Brackets
On Jul 8, 2004, at 2:23 AM, Giovanni Andreani wrote: When displaying repeat bars with first and second endings, the brackets over these measures are multiple, and if one tries to delete one bracket wanting to preserve just one simple line bracket, the whole repeat measure gets deleted. Is there anyway to avoid this problem? It's not really clear what you mean by multiple, but perhaps what you are looking for is Staff Edit Staff Attributes Items to Display Endings Text Repeats. mdl ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale Sorry, I'll try to explain myself a little better: when creating a repeat measure, that can have graphic and playback effect assigned to it: graphically, it you get a bracket with editable text (usually the 1st, 2nd, n-nd time number). The bracket created is really made of two brackets, which are usually overlapped. If I try to delete one of these two brackets, the whole repeat sign, with its double points is deleted as well. What I'd like to do is find the way to delete one part of that bracket, preserving the whole repeat sign within the measure Giovanni Andreani ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Repeat Brackets
On Thursday, July 8, 2004, at 06:06 AM, Giovanni Andreani wrote: On Jul 8, 2004, at 2:23 AM, Giovanni Andreani wrote: When displaying repeat bars with first and second endings, the brackets over these measures are multiple, and if one tries to delete one bracket wanting to preserve just one simple line bracket, the whole repeat measure gets deleted. Is there anyway to avoid this problem? It's not really clear what you mean by multiple, but perhaps what you are looking for is Staff Edit Staff Attributes Items to Display Endings Text Repeats. mdl ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale Sorry, I'll try to explain myself a little better: when creating a repeat measure, that can have graphic and playback effect assigned to it: graphically, it you get a bracket with editable text (usually the 1st, 2nd, n-nd time number). The bracket created is really made of two brackets, which are usually overlapped. If I try to delete one of these two brackets, the whole repeat sign, with its double points is deleted as well. What I'd like to do is find the way to delete one part of that bracket, preserving the whole repeat sign within the measure Giovanni Andreani The LEFT repeat box can be deleted by clicking on a handle and hitting Delete (Backspace on PC?), but the right one is attached to the dotted double bar. The only way to get rid of it is to delete the whole thing, and enter the dotted double bar that is NOT attached to a bracket. I hope I understood the problem correctly. Christopher ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Repeat Brackets
Sorry, I'll try to explain myself a little better: when creating a repeat measure, that can have graphic and playback effect assigned to it: graphically, you get a bracket with editable text (usually the 1st, 2nd, n-nd time number). The bracket created is really made of two brackets, which are usually overlapped. If I try to delete one of these two brackets, the whole repeat sign, with its double points is deleted as well. What I'd like to do is find the way to delete one part of that bracket, preserving the whole repeat sign within the measure You need to edit each one individually. You can shift-click each handle and then drag all the handle for one of those brackets or the other and move them that way. If you want to remove the right half of the bracket, you need to drag the handles so the lines appear to be gone but in actuality are on top of the line from the other half of the bracket. There isn't any way I know of to remove one or the other of those two brackets you are mentioning. -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yes, David, that's what I actually do, to. Some times hiding one bracket under the other, when exporting in a graphic format, will result as a little dot sticking out from the bracket because of a last second uncontrolled dis-alignment, so I usually drag the right handle out of page. I still can't understand why there's not the possibility to have a repeat measure with the single bracket plus the brackets editable text; in other ways: what's the needing for the single right bracket attached, by default, to the repeat measure? In any case, thanks to all Giovanni Andreani ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Repeat Brackets
Giovanni Andreani wrote: Sorry, I'll try to explain myself a little better: when creating a repeat measure, that can have graphic and playback effect assigned to it: graphically, you get a bracket with editable text (usually the 1st, 2nd, n-nd time number). The bracket created is really made of two brackets, which are usually overlapped. If I try to delete one of these two brackets, the whole repeat sign, with its double points is deleted as well. What I'd like to do is find the way to delete one part of that bracket, preserving the whole repeat sign within the measure I'm still not 100% sure of what it is you're trying to get rid of, but if it's the extra hook, try Options Document Settings Repeat Endings, and make sure Length of Back Hook is set to zero. I'm in Fin Mac 2k2. I believe in 2k4 the Document Settings have moved to another menu, but I'm sure the same window exists somewhere. I've got the back hook set to zero in all my templates, but I can't remember if they came that way or if it's a change I did myself. I find that the back hook is redundant more often than not, and when I do need it I just drag it down individually. mdl ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
