Re: [Finale] Tenor-singers Clefs Discussion wrapup

[John Howell]

At 10:49 PM -0500 9/18/11, Noel Stoutenburg wrote:
>John Howell wrote:
>
>>  that's true up through Mozart
>>  as far as sacred music goes.
>
>but I would note that it's also true for a significant portion of
>English Cathedral Music up through the present time. While much of the
>music is quite lovely with a mixed choir, the choirs with whom the
>composers wrote the music were the Cathedral and College foundations,
>most of which maintain to this day a choir of men and boys.

Absolutely true!  And that DOES make it a 
different instrument from the mixed choir.

Another factor that skews our thinking is that 
much 19th century sacred music was written more 
for concert use than for liturgical use, often on 
sacred subjects but for choral festivals, and 
women DID participate in those, so composers 
wrote for their voices.

John


-- 
John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music
Virginia Tech Department of Music
School of Performing Arts & Cinema
College of Liberal Arts & Human Sciences
290 College Ave., Blacksburg, Virginia 24061-0240
Vox (540) 231-8411  Fax (540) 231-5034
(mailto:john.how...@vt.edu)
http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html

"Machen Sie es, wie Sie wollen, machen Sie es nur schön."
(Do it as you like, just make it beautiful!)  --Johannes Brahms

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Re: [Finale] Tenor-singers Clefs Discussion wrapup

[Noel Stoutenburg]

John Howell wrote:

> that's true up through Mozart
> as far as sacred music goes.

but I would note that it's also true for a significant portion of 
English Cathedral Music up through the present time. While much of the 
music is quite lovely with a mixed choir, the choirs with whom the 
composers wrote the music were the Cathedral and College foundations, 
most of which maintain to this day a choir of men and boys.

ns

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Re: [Finale] Tenor-singers Clefs Discussion wrapup

[John Howell]

At 5:49 PM -0700 9/18/11, Mark D Lew wrote:
>
>I find alto voice parts in 8vb much more 
>confusing than tenor voice parts in 8vb.

As in most notation questions (as in the 
difference bewteen jazz and classical 
interpretations), what matters is communication 
and what your singers are used to.

Classical editions wouldn't normally put an 
"alto" part in tenor G-clef.  But in some 
editions of renaissance music, originally 
intended for men's voices, a modern editor may 
put the countertenor line, originally in tenor, 
alto, or mezzo-soprano clef, into tenor G-clef. 
It's then up to the conductor to decide whether 
to use women's or men's voices on that line, so 
altos who sing that repertoire do read the tenor 
G-clef without much problem.

The modern SATB choir is a different instrument 
from the renaissance or baroque choir of men or 
men and boys, and that's true up through Mozart 
as far as sacred music goes.  The Catholic Church 
still wouldn't allow women to sing, although he 
snuck his wife in as a soprano soloist for the C 
Minor Mass.  But the sound he expected was 
choirboys and men.

John


-- 
John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music
Virginia Tech Department of Music
School of Performing Arts & Cinema
College of Liberal Arts & Human Sciences
290 College Ave., Blacksburg, Virginia 24061-0240
Vox (540) 231-8411  Fax (540) 231-5034
(mailto:john.how...@vt.edu)
http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html

"Machen Sie es, wie Sie wollen, machen Sie es nur schön."
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Re: [Finale] Tenor-singers Clefs Discussion wrapup

[Mark D Lew]

On Sep 18, 2011, at 5:40 AM, Peter Taylor wrote:

> I've enjoyed this discussion.  Treble clef for tenors,
> with or without the "8", seems the most natural to me,
> because the voice range is similar to soprano, albeit
> an octave lower.  But what about altos using
> treble clef?  If anything, that seems more awkward than 
> tenors using Treble8, yet nobody complains. 

I've seen several printings of pop songs, in the Hal Leonard books and their 
ilk, where the melody is intended for a woman's voice in the low range.  If 
they write it at pitch, it results in lots of ledger lines -- I've seen as low 
as four lines for D below middle C -- or else they write it in what appears to 
be soprano range but is evidently meant to be sung 8vb.

I find alto voice parts in 8vb much more confusing than tenor voice parts in 
8vb.

mdl
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Re: [Finale] Tenor-singers Clefs Discussion wrapup

[Phil Daley]

At 9/18/2011 01:57 PM, David W. Fenton wrote:

 >Music as a discipline has been shown in studies to improve the
 >ability of students to reason and think. Thus, time spent on teaching
 >music properly could make the other teaching more efficient.
 >
 >We had plenty of time for music when I was a kid. I haven't noticed
 >that days are no longer 24 hours in length, though I don't know how
 >many hours kids are expected to be in the classroom any longer...

Thanks to Bush, the whole day is now spent studying for tests in English 
and Math.

When you become a non-performing school (as most all will by 2014, due to 
unrealistic expectations), schools have no choice on how to decide what to 
teach.

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Re: [Finale] Tenor-singers Clefs Discussion wrapup

[David W. Fenton]

On 18 Sep 2011 at 7:51, Phil Daley wrote:

> At 9/17/2011 03:53 PM, John Howell wrote:
> 
>  >As a practical matter you're correct.  But my
>  >point is that music should be taught as
>  >rigorously in elementary schools as any other
>  >subject, and as rigorously as it is in the Kodály
>  >programs in Hungary.  Where we may differ is my
>  >firm belief that EVERY kid has "an instrument
>  >worth training," and should be singing throughout
>  >elementary school, not just the few that are
>  >identified as "gifted" or "talented," and that
>  >without that entirely reasonable early training
>  >they are so far behind that they may never catch
>  >up with the instrumentalists who HAVE had
>  >rigorous training in private lessons (because
>  >their parents could afford them), and thus may
>  >never have the opportunity to develop the talent
>  >they do have.
> 
> Good idea, but there is no time for that.
> 
> They don't spend enough time on the standard subjects as it is.
> 
> Perhaps if the school day was longer and/or they went all summer long.

>From a musician, I find this attitude particularly alarming.

Music as a discipline has been shown in studies to improve the 
ability of students to reason and think. Thus, time spent on teaching 
music properly could make the other teaching more efficient.

We had plenty of time for music when I was a kid. I haven't noticed 
that days are no longer 24 hours in length, though I don't know how 
many hours kids are expected to be in the classroom any longer...

-- 
David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com
David Fenton Associates   http://dfenton.com/DFA/


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Re: [Finale] Tenor-singers Clefs Discussion wrapup

[John Howell]

At 7:27 AM -0700 9/18/11, TXSTNR POP account wrote:
>
>Lately I've been working on lead sheets for Joan 
>Armatrading, and since her range is so low, (2nd 
>space C in bass clef) I find it convenient to 
>use Treble 8 in order to avoid ledger lines. 
>That means that the lyrics are much closer to 
>the bottom line of the staff.  It looks much 
>better on the page.

Not at all unusual for chick singers/Broadway 
singers.  She is, in fact, singing in the tenor 
range, but apparently that's her natural range. 
There are ALWAYS people on the ends of the 
bell-curve.

John


-- 
John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music
Virginia Tech Department of Music
School of Performing Arts & Cinema
College of Liberal Arts & Human Sciences
290 College Ave., Blacksburg, Virginia 24061-0240
Vox (540) 231-8411  Fax (540) 231-5034
(mailto:john.how...@vt.edu)
http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html

"Machen Sie es, wie Sie wollen, machen Sie es nur schön."
(Do it as you like, just make it beautiful!)  --Johannes Brahms

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Re: [Finale] Tenor-singers Clefs Discussion wrapup

[John Howell]

At 1:40 PM +0100 9/18/11, Peter Taylor wrote:
>From: "John Howell" 
>
>>Most of us
>>have to make do with 5 (or only 4, in Guido's
>>original chant notation).  That's why movable
>>clefs were invented (by Guido himself!) in the
>>first place.
>
>As a child I once had the "brilliant" idea of using a
>6-line staff, where each line and space is a
>semitone, making key signatures and those d*mned
>accidentals redundant.  It sounded great, but when
>I tried to learn it it I found even a recorder needed
>a grand staff!  :)
>
>I've enjoyed this discussion.  Treble clef for tenors,
>with or without the "8", seems the most natural to me,
>because the voice range is similar to soprano, albeit
>an octave lower.  But what about altos using
>treble clef?  If anything, that seems more awkward than
>tenors using Treble8, yet nobody complains.

Logically they should use alto clef, of course 
(middle C on the middle line), and historically 
that's exactly what WAS used before the 20th 
century.  And so should alto sax, French horn, 
and viola.  (Oh yeah, viola actually DOES!!)  Of 
course we also have to remember that "alto" 
(Italian) or "altus" (Latin) means "high," and 
the original "contratenor altus" parts were for a 
high man's voice, not a low woman's voice.  It's 
that old thing about women not being allowed to 
sing in church, thanks to one silly sentence Paul 
wrote in 1st Corinthians!  He had a pretty poor 
opinion of women, it seems.

John


-- 
John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music
Virginia Tech Department of Music
School of Performing Arts & Cinema
College of Liberal Arts & Human Sciences
290 College Ave., Blacksburg, Virginia 24061-0240
Vox (540) 231-8411  Fax (540) 231-5034
(mailto:john.how...@vt.edu)
http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html

"Machen Sie es, wie Sie wollen, machen Sie es nur schön."
(Do it as you like, just make it beautiful!)  --Johannes Brahms

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Re: [Finale] Tenor-singers Clefs Discussion wrapup

[TXSTNR POP account]

On Sep 18, 2011, at 5:40 AM, Peter Taylor wrote:

> I've enjoyed this discussion.  Treble clef for tenors,
> with or without the "8", seems the most natural to me,
> because the voice range is similar to soprano, albeit
> an octave lower.  But what about altos using
> treble clef?  If anything, that seems more awkward than 
> tenors using Treble8, yet nobody complains. 

Lately I've been working on lead sheets for Joan Armatrading, and since her 
range is so low, (2nd space C in bass clef) I find it convenient to use Treble 
8 in order to avoid ledger lines.  That means that the lyrics are much closer 
to the bottom line of the staff.  It looks much better on the page.

Lon Price
lonpr...@txstnr.com
http://www.txstnr.com/




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Re: [Finale] Tenor-singers Clefs Discussion wrapup

[Peter Taylor]

From: "John Howell" 

>Most of us 
>have to make do with 5 (or only 4, in Guido's 
>original chant notation).  That's why movable 
>clefs were invented (by Guido himself!) in the 
>first place.

As a child I once had the "brilliant" idea of using a
6-line staff, where each line and space is a
semitone, making key signatures and those d*mned
accidentals redundant.  It sounded great, but when
I tried to learn it it I found even a recorder needed
a grand staff!  :)

I've enjoyed this discussion.  Treble clef for tenors,
with or without the "8", seems the most natural to me,
because the voice range is similar to soprano, albeit
an octave lower.  But what about altos using
treble clef?  If anything, that seems more awkward than 
tenors using Treble8, yet nobody complains. 
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Re: [Finale] Tenor-singers Clefs Discussion wrapup

[Phil Daley]

At 9/17/2011 03:53 PM, John Howell wrote:

 >As a practical matter you're correct.  But my
 >point is that music should be taught as
 >rigorously in elementary schools as any other
 >subject, and as rigorously as it is in the Kodály
 >programs in Hungary.  Where we may differ is my
 >firm belief that EVERY kid has "an instrument
 >worth training," and should be singing throughout
 >elementary school, not just the few that are
 >identified as "gifted" or "talented," and that
 >without that entirely reasonable early training
 >they are so far behind that they may never catch
 >up with the instrumentalists who HAVE had
 >rigorous training in private lessons (because
 >their parents could afford them), and thus may
 >never have the opportunity to develop the talent
 >they do have.

Good idea, but there is no time for that.

They don't spend enough time on the standard subjects as it is.

Perhaps if the school day was longer and/or they went all summer long.


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Re: [Finale] Tenor-singers Clefs Discussion wrapup

[John Howell]

At 2:56 PM -0400 9/17/11, David W. Fenton wrote:
>On 16 Sep 2011 at 23:56, John Howell wrote:
>
>>  By rights we should require good sightreading as
>>  a prerequisite before we accepted any student as
>>  a college music major, but if we actually did
>>  that we wouldn't have any voice majors at all
>>  (except the smart ones, many of whom started
>>  taking piano at around the age of 7!!).
>
>You seem to be dancing around the problem -- someone who decides to
>pursue the study of singing probably doesn't know that they want to
>do that until they are 17 or 18 years old, precisely because the body
>and the voice don't mature soon enough for them to realize they have
>an instrument worth training. If they haven't already had solid
>training on a musical instrument, they'll land in college as a bare
>novice, with little or none of the musical rudiments in place that
>you'd expect from a 12-year-old pianist, for instance.
>
>It's the nature of the instrument, and there's not much can be done
>about it, seems to me.

As a practical matter you're correct.  But my 
point is that music should be taught as 
rigorously in elementary schools as any other 
subject, and as rigorously as it is in the Kodály 
programs in Hungary.  Where we may differ is my 
firm belief that EVERY kid has "an instrument 
worth training," and should be singing throughout 
elementary school, not just the few that are 
identified as "gifted" or "talented," and that 
without that entirely reasonable early training 
they are so far behind that they may never catch 
up with the instrumentalists who HAVE had 
rigorous training in private lessons (because 
their parents could afford them), and thus may 
never have the opportunity to develop the talent 
they do have.

John


-- 
John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music
Virginia Tech Department of Music
School of Performing Arts & Cinema
College of Liberal Arts & Human Sciences
290 College Ave., Blacksburg, Virginia 24061-0240
Vox (540) 231-8411  Fax (540) 231-5034
(mailto:john.how...@vt.edu)
http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html

"Machen Sie es, wie Sie wollen, machen Sie es nur schön."
(Do it as you like, just make it beautiful!)  --Johannes Brahms

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Re: [Finale] Tenor-singers Clefs Discussion wrapup

[John Howell]

At 1:00 PM -0700 9/17/11, Mark D Lew wrote:
>On Sep 16, 2011, at 9:18 AM, Patrick Sheehan wrote:
>
>>  Someone mentioned that the Treble8 clef for tenors much like a transposing
>>  instrument.  Correct!  In this sense, the tenors are reading treble clef
>>  notes but what's coming out of their throat is an octave lower, plus they
>>  have to think that way too.  What sense does that make?! 
>
>It makes a lot of sense.  When you tell men, 
>"sing the same tune as the women", they 
>instinctively sing it an octave lower.  It 
>doesn't feel like transposing, it feels natural.

There's an interesting point that I'm sure both 
Mark and Patrick are perfectly aware of, but it's 
worth mentioning.  For my Vocal-Choral Arranging 
students, I'm careful to point out that there are 
two kinds of unison:  a TRUE unison, with men and 
women singing the same notes in the same octave 
at the same frequencies, and an OCTAVE unison 
with men and women singing an octave apart.  (Or 
in days gone by, church choirs of men and boys.) 
Both are quite usable in choral music and both 
are used quite often, but while a singer doesn't 
really have to worry about it, a composer or 
arranger DOES, and has to keep track of where the 
voices are actually sounding.  Using the proper 
traditional clefs is one way to keep that 
straight, but some students have trouble grasping 
the difference--especially instrumentalists, even 
though they would probably not have a problem 
with it if they were writing for alto and bari 
saxes!!

Choral conductors who work with children and 
adolescents have a different but related problem: 
male teachers have to decide whether to 
demonstrate in their own octave or try to sing in 
the children's range an octave higher.  Female 
teachers have to try to grovel their voices down 
to demonstrate baritone or bass parts for 
changing voices.  So there's a relationship here. 
A part may be notated in exactly the correct 
octave, but the instrument (or voice) performing 
it is going to sound in its own octave, not the 
written one in all cases.  (E.g. the alto and 
bari sax example.)

John


-- 
John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music
Virginia Tech Department of Music
School of Performing Arts & Cinema
College of Liberal Arts & Human Sciences
290 College Ave., Blacksburg, Virginia 24061-0240
Vox (540) 231-8411  Fax (540) 231-5034
(mailto:john.how...@vt.edu)
http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html

"Machen Sie es, wie Sie wollen, machen Sie es nur schön."
(Do it as you like, just make it beautiful!)  --Johannes Brahms

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Re: [Finale] Tenor-singers Clefs Discussion wrapup

[Mark D Lew]

On Sep 16, 2011, at 9:18 AM, Patrick Sheehan wrote:

> Someone mentioned that the Treble8 clef for tenors much like a transposing
> instrument.  Correct!  In this sense, the tenors are reading treble clef
> notes but what's coming out of their throat is an octave lower, plus they
> have to think that way too.  What sense does that make?!  

It makes a lot of sense.  When you tell men, "sing the same tune as the women", 
they instinctively sing it an octave lower.  It doesn't feel like transposing, 
it feels natural.

In opera and musical theater it frequently occurs that male and female parts 
are singing together in unison.  Your proposed convention of males always in 
bass clef would require an extra staff for any of these.

> But, I could go on and on about practicality.  There are several
> other notational concepts that I despise, but I'd keep you here until the
> apocalypse. 

I'm no defender of convention.  I'm all for doing things in new ways, and like 
you I have my own peeves that I think should be reformed.  I just don't agree 
on this one.  I think that writing for tenors only in bass clef causes a lot of 
problems and is very little help at all.

> All male voice parts should be written in bass clef, no exception.  This
> tells you the differentiation between female and male parts at first sight
> (and eventually, all "sights.").

Parts should be clearly labeled.  If there's a case where there's unintended 
confusion about whether it is male or female then that's just sloppy.

But sometimes the ambiguity is deliberate.  There are lots of and lots of songs 
which can be sung by either male or female voice, using whichever octave is 
appropriate.  Do you insist on separate editions, one for male and one for 
female?  What about a couplets number in operetta where a male character sings 
one verse and a female character sings another, must these be written out 
separately?

> The fact is: I've taken a poll with all male vocalists and
> asked them what they would prefer to always see, and they prefer bass clef;
> they say that treble is confusing and it messes with their eye's ear.  The
> same goes for adults.  

I'm curious what your poll sample is. I've worked with thousands of singers, 
ranging from amateur choristers to professional soloists, and I've found no 
such consensus. Men who sing only tenor tend to dislike the bass clef. I can 
remember a specific instance with an amateur opera chorus where the unison part 
was in two staves hymnbook style. When a few of the tenors complained about 
having to read bass clef, I pointed out that since it's unison they can just 
read the women's clef instead, and that made them happy.

For men who sing "middle" and thus are often switched back and forth between 
bass and tenor, my sense is there is a slight preference for 8vb clef but they 
are fine with both.

Overwhelmingly, people like what they are used to.  If your sample strongly 
prefers the bass clef, I can only guess they have lots of experience with 
hymnbook style choral writing.

> I think that where things are getting lost and
> mis-practiced are with publishers, which is why I don't go through
> publishers.  Their editors wreak havoc on an original layout / work.  It's a
> harsh truth, but it's the truth nonetheless.  

If you aren't constrained by publishers, you should absolutely write things 
however you prefer. That's my feeling for all proposed reforms, not just bass 
clefs for tenors. The most important thing is communicating the music. If you 
think you have a better way which is enough of an improvement to overcome 
tradition, then give it a try.  Let real-world experience be the test for what 
work and what doesn't. If your way really is better, then maybe others will 
follow your lead. (But in this case, I for one will not.)

mdl
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Re: [Finale] Tenor-singers Clefs Discussion wrapup

[Aaron Rabushka]

And dont' forget those of us who simply don't want to count (and in "olden 
times" draw) the leger lines.
Aaron J. Rabushka
arabus...@austin.rr.com
- Original Message - 
From: "John Howell" 
To: 
Sent: Saturday, September 17, 2011 1:38 PM
Subject: Re: [Finale] Tenor-singers Clefs Discussion wrapup


At 12:34 PM -0500 9/17/11, Steve Larsen wrote:
>
>My own practice is to use the 8va sign in scores when necessary, but to
>restore the part to its proper octave when extracting.

And that just makes good sense.  And save space
in the score, where things are more crowded
already.

Another pet peeve is engravers who switch viola
parts to treble clef for just a few notes, when
it's entirely unnecessary.  C'mon, folks, give us
a LITTLE credit for being able to read the music
written for our own instruments!  Don't obsess
over ledger lines if ledger lines are "normal"
for a given instrument.  There IS no "rule" for
how many ledger lines are acceptable, but there
is definitely an average that is different from
one instrument to another.

And at our last string rehearsal I found one
passage that sounded like garbage was actually an
engraver's error, where for about 4 bars he had
entered the notes as if in treble clef instead of
alto but hadn't marked a clef change.  It happens!

John


-- 
John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music
Virginia Tech Department of Music
School of Performing Arts & Cinema
College of Liberal Arts & Human Sciences
290 College Ave., Blacksburg, Virginia 24061-0240
Vox (540) 231-8411  Fax (540) 231-5034
(mailto:john.how...@vt.edu)
http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html

"Machen Sie es, wie Sie wollen, machen Sie es nur schön."
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Re: [Finale] Tenor-singers Clefs Discussion wrapup

[John Howell]

>On 16 Sep 2011 at 11:18, Patrick Sheehan wrote:
>
>  >  News flash: We all have to deal
>>  with reading multiple ledger lines (pianists, flutists, violinists).
>>  Don't complain about ledger lines; learn to read them and be
>>  comfortable!  We don't have a staff that has 10 lines, only 5.

Actually that isn't true.  Pianists DO have a 
staff with 10 lines.  It's called a Grand Staff. 
Organists have one with 15 lines.  Most of us 
have to make do with 5 (or only 4, in Guido's 
original chant notation).  That's why movable 
clefs were invented (by Guido himself!) in the 
first place.

And since pianists have an instrument with a 
wider range than any other (from the 
contrabassoon's low A to the piccolo's double 
high C) but are stuck with a Grand Staff not 
originally designed for that wide a range (the 
organ is treated as a transposing instrument with 
stop changes giving different octaves), pianists 
HAVE to read both ledger lines and 8va and 15va 
above or below the staves.

But the whole discussion has gotten rather 
pointless.  You have your opinions, you asked 
your questions, and you don't seem to like the 
perfectly valid answers you've gotten. You're 
certainly entitled to your opinions.

John


-- 
John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music
Virginia Tech Department of Music
School of Performing Arts & Cinema
College of Liberal Arts & Human Sciences
290 College Ave., Blacksburg, Virginia 24061-0240
Vox (540) 231-8411  Fax (540) 231-5034
(mailto:john.how...@vt.edu)
http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html

"Machen Sie es, wie Sie wollen, machen Sie es nur schön."
(Do it as you like, just make it beautiful!)  --Johannes Brahms

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Re: [Finale] Tenor-singers Clefs Discussion wrapup

[David W. Fenton]

On 16 Sep 2011 at 23:56, John Howell wrote:

> By rights we should require good sightreading as 
> a prerequisite before we accepted any student as 
> a college music major, but if we actually did 
> that we wouldn't have any voice majors at all 
> (except the smart ones, many of whom started 
> taking piano at around the age of 7!!).

You seem to be dancing around the problem -- someone who decides to 
pursue the study of singing probably doesn't know that they want to 
do that until they are 17 or 18 years old, precisely because the body 
and the voice don't mature soon enough for them to realize they have 
an instrument worth training. If they haven't already had solid 
training on a musical instrument, they'll land in college as a bare 
novice, with little or none of the musical rudiments in place that 
you'd expect from a 12-year-old pianist, for instance.

It's the nature of the instrument, and there's not much can be done 
about it, seems to me.

-- 
David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com
David Fenton Associates   http://dfenton.com/DFA/

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Re: [Finale] Tenor-singers Clefs Discussion wrapup

[John Howell]

At 12:34 PM -0500 9/17/11, Steve Larsen wrote:
>
>My own practice is to use the 8va sign in scores when necessary, but to
>restore the part to its proper octave when extracting.

And that just makes good sense.  And save space 
in the score, where things are more crowded 
already.

Another pet peeve is engravers who switch viola 
parts to treble clef for just a few notes, when 
it's entirely unnecessary.  C'mon, folks, give us 
a LITTLE credit for being able to read the music 
written for our own instruments!  Don't obsess 
over ledger lines if ledger lines are "normal" 
for a given instrument.  There IS no "rule" for 
how many ledger lines are acceptable, but there 
is definitely an average that is different from 
one instrument to another.

And at our last string rehearsal I found one 
passage that sounded like garbage was actually an 
engraver's error, where for about 4 bars he had 
entered the notes as if in treble clef instead of 
alto but hadn't marked a clef change.  It happens!

John


-- 
John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music
Virginia Tech Department of Music
School of Performing Arts & Cinema
College of Liberal Arts & Human Sciences
290 College Ave., Blacksburg, Virginia 24061-0240
Vox (540) 231-8411  Fax (540) 231-5034
(mailto:john.how...@vt.edu)
http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html

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Re: [Finale] Tenor-singers Clefs Discussion wrapup

[John Howell]

At 7:23 AM -0400 9/17/11, Phil Daley wrote:
>At 9/16/2011 11:56 PM, John Howell wrote:
>
>  >By rights we should require good sightreading as
>  >a prerequisite before we accepted any student as
>  >a college music major, but if we actually did
>  >that we wouldn't have any voice majors at all
>  >(except the smart ones, many of whom started
>  >taking piano at around the age of 7!!).
>
>That's your opinion.
>
>Unfortunately, the education department doesn't agree with you.
>
>They also don't think art, history or science are important, either.
>
>All the testing in done in English and Math, so what do you think the
>schools are doing?
>
>When the punishment is firing of all the staff for poor test scores, what
>do you think they focus on?

I assume that you mean the Federal Government, 
although every state and every university also 
has an 'education department.'  And of course 
you're quite right.  I grew up in a family of 
educators (music, foreign language, librarians, 
you name it).  And I know all the problems from 
the inside, from way back.  But this emphasis on 
"the basics" goes back to the '60s, the Space 
Race, and the very vocal concern with the "brain 
drain."  And I think it was in the late '60s that 
my parents were quoting from the Carnegie 
Commission Report, which said something like, 
"Yes, the schools must concentrate on the basics, 
and the arts are basic."  It's when we elect 
ignorant politicians that we get ignorant 
governing.  (Otherwise known as "garbage in, 
garbage out"!)

But my "opinion" comes from years of observing 
what is actually DONE in the schools, not to 
mention what is NOT done, compared with some 
other systems.  And of the mindset that most 
teacher-preparatory programs seem to have.  And 
that comes straight back to the individual 
teacher, and the professors who prepared that 
teacher.  Believe me, we've talked about 
demanding better musical training for our 
incoming music majors, but with the LACK of 
training many of them have had we simply can't do 
that, so we have to provide as much remedial work 
as we can.  We aren't Juilliard, and we can't 
limit ourselves to the top 2% of music students, 
because we aren't gonna GET them!  And we must do 
something right, because our music ed majors get 
good jobs and make names for themselves in the 
profession, and our performance majors go on to 
excellent grad schools.

Some of our best musicians in our best ensembles 
are NOT music majors.  They're in demanding 
fields where they can actually get jobs, but 
they're the kind of people who excel in whatever 
they tackle, and we love 'em!!

John


-- 
John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music
Virginia Tech Department of Music
School of Performing Arts & Cinema
College of Liberal Arts & Human Sciences
290 College Ave., Blacksburg, Virginia 24061-0240
Vox (540) 231-8411  Fax (540) 231-5034
(mailto:john.how...@vt.edu)
http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html

"Machen Sie es, wie Sie wollen, machen Sie es nur schön."
(Do it as you like, just make it beautiful!)  --Johannes Brahms

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Re: [Finale] Tenor-singers Clefs Discussion wrapup

[Steve Larsen]

Since the discussion has veered off into discussion of piccolos, octave
transpositions and ledger lines, I thought I'd share a nugget about piccolo
and flute writing. All those ledger lines are tough to read, at least for
the rest of us mortals who don't play flute or picc. But they're used to
reading them, and would rather see them than an 8va sign that brings
everything down into a "readable" octave. There are different fingerings for
notes in the upper stratosphere, and that octave transposition makes them
have to mentally "transpose". 

My own practice is to use the 8va sign in scores when necessary, but to
restore the part to its proper octave when extracting.

Steve Larsen

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Re: [Finale] Tenor-singers Clefs Discussion wrapup

[David H. Bailey]

On 9/17/2011 7:23 AM, Phil Daley wrote:
> At 9/16/2011 11:56 PM, John Howell wrote:
>
>   >By rights we should require good sightreading as
>   >a prerequisite before we accepted any student as
>   >a college music major, but if we actually did
>   >that we wouldn't have any voice majors at all
>   >(except the smart ones, many of whom started
>   >taking piano at around the age of 7!!).
>
> That's your opinion.
>
> Unfortunately, the education department doesn't agree with you.
>
> They also don't think art, history or science are important, either.
>
> All the testing in done in English and Math, so what do you think the
> schools are doing?
>
> When the punishment is firing of all the staff for poor test scores, what
> do you think they focus on?
>


Spending their time polishing their resumes for a job in the private 
sector?  ;-)


-- 
David H. Bailey
dhbai...@davidbaileymusicstudio.com
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Re: [Finale] Tenor-singers Clefs Discussion wrapup

[Phil Daley]

At 9/16/2011 11:56 PM, John Howell wrote:

 >By rights we should require good sightreading as
 >a prerequisite before we accepted any student as
 >a college music major, but if we actually did
 >that we wouldn't have any voice majors at all
 >(except the smart ones, many of whom started
 >taking piano at around the age of 7!!).

That's your opinion.

Unfortunately, the education department doesn't agree with you.

They also don't think art, history or science are important, either.

All the testing in done in English and Math, so what do you think the 
schools are doing?

When the punishment is firing of all the staff for poor test scores, what 
do you think they focus on?

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Re: [Finale] Tenor-singers Clefs Discussion wrapup

[John Howell]

At 3:05 PM -0700 9/16/11, TXSTNR POP account wrote:
>At least you guys know singers who can read at 
>all.  When I took first semester sight singing 
>an North Texas, the worst readers in the class 
>were the singers.

Oh, we understand the problem; we just can't do 
anything about it by ourselves.  There are two 
causes:  (1) Music Education in America is 
catch-as-catch-can, with music ed students 
"exposed" to a number of approaches and 
encouraged to use whichever ones appeal to them 
rather than adopting a single approach and 
following through with it in a sequential and 
progressive TEACHING system.  Think about what 
math teaching would be if every year ignored what 
had been learned the year before!!!  That's why 
6th graders in Hungary can read music infinitely 
better than college Sophomores in the U.S.!!!

And (2), singers are permitted to get by with 
pretty voices and parts are pounded out for them 
on the piano until they finally hit those 
sightsinging classes at age 18 or 19, when nobody 
has bothered to teach them basic solfege skills. 
Or if they have REALLY pretty voices they go on 
to sing opera, where "voice coaches" continue to 
pound out the parts for them.

By rights we should require good sightreading as 
a prerequisite before we accepted any student as 
a college music major, but if we actually did 
that we wouldn't have any voice majors at all 
(except the smart ones, many of whom started 
taking piano at around the age of 7!!).

John


-- 
John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music
Virginia Tech Department of Music
School of Performing Arts & Cinema
College of Liberal Arts & Human Sciences
290 College Ave., Blacksburg, Virginia 24061-0240
Vox (540) 231-8411  Fax (540) 231-5034
(mailto:john.how...@vt.edu)
http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html

"Machen Sie es, wie Sie wollen, machen Sie es nur schön."
(Do it as you like, just make it beautiful!)  --Johannes Brahms

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Re: [Finale] Tenor-singers Clefs Discussion wrapup

[TXSTNR POP account]

At least you guys know singers who can read at all.  When I took first semester 
sight singing an North Texas, the worst readers in the class were the singers.

On Sep 16, 2011, at 2:49 PM, David W. Fenton wrote:

> On 16 Sep 2011 at 11:18, Patrick Sheehan wrote:
> 
>> To clarify, I do not have a problem in reading the Treble8 clef for
>> tenors, I simply find it impractical.
> 
> That makes no sense -- it is by far the most practical clef FOR THE 
> TENORS (i.e., the musicians for whom the music is written, that is, 
> the ones who have to PERFORM IT). It may not be "practical" for an 
> accompanist, but it's not written for the accompanist.
> 
>> News flash: We all have to deal
>> with reading multiple ledger lines (pianists, flutists, violinists). 
>> Don't complain about ledger lines; learn to read them and be
>> comfortable!  We don't have a staff that has 10 lines, only 5.  
> 
> While I would not argue that tenors shouldn't be able to read leger 
> lines, I WOULD argue that it's ludicrous to insist that more leger 
> lines than necessary be used.
> 
> Get used to it -- the clef is not going away, because it's the best 
> compromise for the range involved.
> 
> []
> 
>> It boils down to this - I just wish everything was standardized: 
> 
> Free clue: treble clef 8 IS THE STANDARD.
> 
> You are the one who needs to get used to it.
> 
> -- 
> David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com
> David Fenton Associates   http://dfenton.com/DFA/
> 
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Lon Price
lonpr...@txstnr.com
http://www.txstnr.com/




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Re: [Finale] Tenor-singers Clefs Discussion wrapup

[David W. Fenton]

On 16 Sep 2011 at 11:18, Patrick Sheehan wrote:

> To clarify, I do not have a problem in reading the Treble8 clef for
> tenors, I simply find it impractical.

That makes no sense -- it is by far the most practical clef FOR THE 
TENORS (i.e., the musicians for whom the music is written, that is, 
the ones who have to PERFORM IT). It may not be "practical" for an 
accompanist, but it's not written for the accompanist.

>  News flash: We all have to deal
> with reading multiple ledger lines (pianists, flutists, violinists). 
> Don't complain about ledger lines; learn to read them and be
> comfortable!  We don't have a staff that has 10 lines, only 5.  

While I would not argue that tenors shouldn't be able to read leger 
lines, I WOULD argue that it's ludicrous to insist that more leger 
lines than necessary be used.

Get used to it -- the clef is not going away, because it's the best 
compromise for the range involved.

[]

> It boils down to this - I just wish everything was standardized: 

Free clue: treble clef 8 IS THE STANDARD.

You are the one who needs to get used to it.

-- 
David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com
David Fenton Associates   http://dfenton.com/DFA/

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Re: [Finale] Tenor-singers Clefs Discussion wrapup

[arabushka]

Good thing the auidence can't hear the cleffing...

ajr


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Re: [Finale] Tenor-singers Clefs Discussion wrapup

[Raymond Horton]

Absolutely, write what is clearest and most easily understood.  If
bass clef for your tenors is that, fine.

But saying "All male voice parts should be written in bass clef, no
exception"  is another matter.

Interesting to see real examples of how jazz trombonists never
embraced clefs other than bass in solo transcriptions recently posted
on youtube.  All bass clef, frequently switching to 8va marks for
upper register.  The first example goes to bass clef plus 5 ledger
line, marked 8va!

http://youtu.be/pap8NHnArEA

http://youtu.be/t_L11SOaURo

http://youtu.be/rxxXRwTFc1c

One could easily make sweeping statements about what would be
preferable clef usage in these, or  indeed all first trombone parts in
commercial charts, but this is the tradition.  Put one of these in a
seemingly much more practical alto clef, or bass switching to treble
(like trombone parts in many newer serious works) and trouble will
ensue.

Raymond Horton
Bass Trombonist, Louisville Orchestra
Minister of Music, Edwardsville (IN) UMC
Composer, Arranger
VISIT US AT rayhortonmusic.com

On Fri, Sep 16, 2011 at 1:20 PM, Dean M. Estabrook  wrote:
> I agree with you Raymond  we ought to be able to play what's
> written, but when I'm writing stuff  for any groups to which I have
> access,  I best take GREAT care about ranges, clefs,  etc.,,   or it
> just don't get read ...  good practice anyway ...
>
> Dean
>
> On Sep 16, 2011, at 9:55 AM, Raymond Horton wrote:
>
>> Well, it IS standardized, Patrick - you just don't like the
>> standards.  And,
>> if you circulated your petitions, sent them to all the major
>> publishers and
>> got them to change - just who is going to re-engrave all of the
>> millions of
>> works that have been notated already, in clefs you don't like?
>>
>> Go back to my example of trombonists for a second.  I mentioned
>> the Shostakovitch 5th symphony, I believe.  As I recall, the 2nd
>> trombone
>> part is in alto clef throughout, with leger lines below to low Ab
>> and G.
>>  For ONE WHOLE NOTE low F in the first movement, the part switches
>> to bass
>> clef!  Ridiculous!  Take a poll on that one and bass clef would win
>> (if you
>> include amateur trombonists in your poll, alto clef would lose in
>> every
>> case, no matter what the range).   The next week we may play the same
>> composers 10th, in which the parts are quite high and all written
>> in bass
>> clef - absurd!   But it's part of being a musician - we read it
>> because it's
>> our job.
>>
>> Musicians have to read the music that is there.  Composers and
>> arrangers can
>> write what ever they want, but if you write for established
>> publishers, you
>> write to their standards.  If you publish yourself - use whatever
>> clefs you
>> want, sell to whomever buys, have a grand old time.   If you sell
>> more than
>>  the big publishers, then maybe they will change, and then others
>> can start
>> complaining.
>>
>> Raymond Horton
>> Bass Trombonist, Louisville Orchestra
>> Minister of Music, Edwardsville (IN) UMC
>> Composer, Arranger
>> VISIT US AT rayhortonmusic.com
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Sep 16, 2011 at 12:18 PM, Patrick Sheehan <
>> patricksheehanmu...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Thank you all for the historical practices and experience on what
>>> you've
>>> used and seen.
>>>
>>> To clarify, I do not have a problem in reading the Treble8 clef
>>> for tenors,
>>> I simply find it impractical.
>>> News flash: We all have to deal with reading multiple ledger lines
>>> (pianists, flutists, violinists).  Don't complain about ledger
>>> lines; learn
>>> to read them and be comfortable!  We don't have a staff that has
>>> 10 lines,
>>> only 5.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Someone mentioned that the Treble8 clef for tenors much like a
>>> transposing
>>> instrument.  Correct!  In this sense, the tenors are reading
>>> treble clef
>>> notes but what's coming out of their throat is an octave lower,
>>> plus they
>>> have to think that way too.  What sense does that make?!
>>>
>>> Some people have said the bass clef for tenors is not used because of
>>> ledger
>>> lines.  Well, what fixes that?  Scrupulous layout (in Finale,
>>> etc.), and
>>> stems in both directions.  I'm also tired of seeing joined stems
>>> for tenor
>>> and bass parts (if the rhythm is the same).  No matter who you
>>> are, it
>>> keeps
>>> each voice part on track if they can focus on notehead-stem-lyric
>>> for their
>>> own part.  But, I could go on and on about practicality.  There
>>> are several
>>> other notational concepts that I despise, but I'd keep you here
>>> until the
>>> apocalypse.
>>>
>>> It boils down to this - I just wish everything was standardized:
>>> just a
>>> two-stave hymnbook-style choral score with constant stems up
>>> (soprano &
>>> tenor) and stems down (alto and bass), with or without the piano
>>> part as a
>>> reduction (if its an a cappella work).  If the parts are more
>>> polyrhythmic
>>> and need to be separated on their own individual staves, then it
>>> should be
>>

Re: [Finale] Tenor-singers Clefs Discussion wrapup

[John Howell]

At 1:31 PM -0400 9/16/11, Raymond Horton wrote:
>I want to clarify when I said some anthems from the 80s that were
>published with an open score with bass clef for tenors.  I said I
>remember them as being easy to read, or something like that.

Things get really interesting when we start 
talking about specific situations.  Here's one 
that's different yet.For 14 years I shared 
arranging duties with a colleague for the 
university show ensemble I directed.  Our 
approach to arranging and the WAY we arranged was 
different, and that made for a nice variety.  And 
we were both writing for a 22-voice cast (plus a 
12-piece showband behind them).

For my vocal charts I almost always used 2 
staves:  treble clef for the women and tenor 
G-clef for the men.  Why?  It simply fit the 
music better, kept most of it within the staff, 
and didn't run into the lyrics between the 
staves.  And when you're copying by hand with 
commercially-printed score paper you can't move 
the staves around!!!  Plus which in commercial 
vocal writing the "bass" voice is often not a 
bass line at all, but a low harmony part.  In 
fact you don't WANT your bass voice down where it 
conflicts with the string bass or bass guitar (or 
bass trombone or bari sax) in the sonic spectrum.

Paul, on the other hand, tended to use treble 
clef for ALL the voices, more often dividing them 
into "high" and "low" or into "high," "medium" 
and "low" rather than the more 
classically-oriented SATB.  It was simply because 
his own background was strongly in musical 
theater, where that's what is written almost all 
the time, and the octave intended by the treble 
clef is left somewhat up in the air or else 
indicated as "boys" or "girls."

And our singers never had a problem figuring out 
what we wanted, although there might indeed be a 
few questions during the first rehearsals of a 
new chart.

But neither one of us notated for the convenience 
of piano players, which is what this discussion 
is really about.  For them we provided a chord 
symbol line (or I did; Paul was our primary 
keyboardist and didn't need one for his own 
charts).  And our 2nd keyboardists simply learned 
to comp from chord symbols, or else already knew 
how when we accepted them.

Every situation is different.  But complaining 
about notation that is absolutely standard and 
has been for years or centuries is sort of 
counterproductive.

John


-- 
John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music
Virginia Tech Department of Music
School of Performing Arts & Cinema
College of Liberal Arts & Human Sciences
290 College Ave., Blacksburg, Virginia 24061-0240
Vox (540) 231-8411  Fax (540) 231-5034
(mailto:john.how...@vt.edu)
http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html

"Machen Sie es, wie Sie wollen, machen Sie es nur schön."
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Re: [Finale] Tenor-singers Clefs Discussion wrapup

[Raymond Horton]

I want to clarify when I said some anthems from the 80s that were
published with an open score with bass clef for tenors.  I said I
remember them as being easy to read, or something like that.

1) I am a terrible pianist.  I have certainly had plenty of years
experience hearing a conventional choral score in my head, but playing
it with my own two stupid hands (it IS my hands' fault, right?) is
another story.  These pieces were easier for me to play  - but see
point two for more reasons.

2) These pieces were easy and mellow, and had particularly low tenor
parts - like fourth line F up to middle C (bass clef, remember) - with
a lot of Gs on C and G chords (man, that sounds boring - but they were
pretty good). Which was good for my church choir at the time, which
had a couple of baritones shoring up the tenor section.  Would not be
good for my current choir, which has a good tenor section made up of
real tenors and a couple of women who never came to terms with their
head voice.

Raymond Horton
Bass Trombonist, Louisville Orchestra
Minister of Music, Edwardsville (IN) UMC
Composer, Arranger
VISIT US AT rayhortonmusic.com



On Fri, Sep 16, 2011 at 1:16 PM, Steve Parker  wrote:
> With the tenor range from (Bb) C to A+ the treble 8 clef is perfect.
> It is not being treated as a transposing instrument - it is a different clef 
> to a treble clef.
> Using bass clef where the tenor vocal range begins in the second space is 
> difficult to justify rationally.
>
> As for piano playing, IMHO accompanists should be able to play vocal parts in 
> any combination of clefs, string quartets, orchestral scores including 
> transpositions and octave displacements.
> These things just take a bit of practice but should be toolbox stuff.
>
> Steve P.
>
> On 16 Sep 2011, at 17:55, Raymond Horton wrote:
>
>> Well, it IS standardized, Patrick - you just don't like the standards.  And,
>> if you circulated your petitions, sent them to all the major publishers and
>> got them to change - just who is going to re-engrave all of the millions of
>> works that have been notated already, in clefs you don't like?
>>
>> Go back to my example of trombonists for a second.  I mentioned
>> the Shostakovitch 5th symphony, I believe.  As I recall, the 2nd trombone
>> part is in alto clef throughout, with leger lines below to low Ab and G.
>> For ONE WHOLE NOTE low F in the first movement, the part switches to bass
>> clef!  Ridiculous!  Take a poll on that one and bass clef would win (if you
>> include amateur trombonists in your poll, alto clef would lose in every
>> case, no matter what the range).   The next week we may play the same
>> composers 10th, in which the parts are quite high and all written in bass
>> clef - absurd!   But it's part of being a musician - we read it because it's
>> our job.
>>
>> Musicians have to read the music that is there.  Composers and arrangers can
>> write what ever they want, but if you write for established publishers, you
>> write to their standards.  If you publish yourself - use whatever clefs you
>> want, sell to whomever buys, have a grand old time.   If you sell more than
>> the big publishers, then maybe they will change, and then others can start
>> complaining.
>>
>> Raymond Horton
>> Bass Trombonist, Louisville Orchestra
>> Minister of Music, Edwardsville (IN) UMC
>> Composer, Arranger
>> VISIT US AT rayhortonmusic.com
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Sep 16, 2011 at 12:18 PM, Patrick Sheehan <
>> patricksheehanmu...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Thank you all for the historical practices and experience on what you've
>>> used and seen.
>>>
>>> To clarify, I do not have a problem in reading the Treble8 clef for tenors,
>>> I simply find it impractical.
>>> News flash: We all have to deal with reading multiple ledger lines
>>> (pianists, flutists, violinists).  Don't complain about ledger lines; learn
>>> to read them and be comfortable!  We don't have a staff that has 10 lines,
>>> only 5.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Someone mentioned that the Treble8 clef for tenors much like a transposing
>>> instrument.  Correct!  In this sense, the tenors are reading treble clef
>>> notes but what's coming out of their throat is an octave lower, plus they
>>> have to think that way too.  What sense does that make?!
>>>
>>> Some people have said the bass clef for tenors is not used because of
>>> ledger
>>> lines.  Well, what fixes that?  Scrupulous layout (in Finale, etc.), and
>>> stems in both directions.  I'm also tired of seeing joined stems for tenor
>>> and bass parts (if the rhythm is the same).  No matter who you are, it
>>> keeps
>>> each voice part on track if they can focus on notehead-stem-lyric for their
>>> own part.  But, I could go on and on about practicality.  There are several
>>> other notational concepts that I despise, but I'd keep you here until the
>>> apocalypse.
>>>
>>> It boils down to this - I just wish everything was standardized:  just a
>>> two-stave hymnbook-style choral score with constant stems up (soprano

Re: [Finale] Tenor-singers Clefs Discussion wrapup

[Dean M. Estabrook]

I agree with you Raymond  we ought to be able to play what's  
written, but when I'm writing stuff  for any groups to which I have  
access,  I best take GREAT care about ranges, clefs,  etc.,,   or it  
just don't get read ...  good practice anyway ...

Dean

On Sep 16, 2011, at 9:55 AM, Raymond Horton wrote:

> Well, it IS standardized, Patrick - you just don't like the  
> standards.  And,
> if you circulated your petitions, sent them to all the major  
> publishers and
> got them to change - just who is going to re-engrave all of the  
> millions of
> works that have been notated already, in clefs you don't like?
>
> Go back to my example of trombonists for a second.  I mentioned
> the Shostakovitch 5th symphony, I believe.  As I recall, the 2nd  
> trombone
> part is in alto clef throughout, with leger lines below to low Ab  
> and G.
>  For ONE WHOLE NOTE low F in the first movement, the part switches  
> to bass
> clef!  Ridiculous!  Take a poll on that one and bass clef would win  
> (if you
> include amateur trombonists in your poll, alto clef would lose in  
> every
> case, no matter what the range).   The next week we may play the same
> composers 10th, in which the parts are quite high and all written  
> in bass
> clef - absurd!   But it's part of being a musician - we read it  
> because it's
> our job.
>
> Musicians have to read the music that is there.  Composers and  
> arrangers can
> write what ever they want, but if you write for established  
> publishers, you
> write to their standards.  If you publish yourself - use whatever  
> clefs you
> want, sell to whomever buys, have a grand old time.   If you sell  
> more than
>  the big publishers, then maybe they will change, and then others  
> can start
> complaining.
>
> Raymond Horton
> Bass Trombonist, Louisville Orchestra
> Minister of Music, Edwardsville (IN) UMC
> Composer, Arranger
> VISIT US AT rayhortonmusic.com
>
>
> On Fri, Sep 16, 2011 at 12:18 PM, Patrick Sheehan <
> patricksheehanmu...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Thank you all for the historical practices and experience on what  
>> you've
>> used and seen.
>>
>> To clarify, I do not have a problem in reading the Treble8 clef  
>> for tenors,
>> I simply find it impractical.
>> News flash: We all have to deal with reading multiple ledger lines
>> (pianists, flutists, violinists).  Don't complain about ledger  
>> lines; learn
>> to read them and be comfortable!  We don't have a staff that has  
>> 10 lines,
>> only 5.
>>
>>
>>
>> Someone mentioned that the Treble8 clef for tenors much like a  
>> transposing
>> instrument.  Correct!  In this sense, the tenors are reading  
>> treble clef
>> notes but what's coming out of their throat is an octave lower,  
>> plus they
>> have to think that way too.  What sense does that make?!
>>
>> Some people have said the bass clef for tenors is not used because of
>> ledger
>> lines.  Well, what fixes that?  Scrupulous layout (in Finale,  
>> etc.), and
>> stems in both directions.  I'm also tired of seeing joined stems  
>> for tenor
>> and bass parts (if the rhythm is the same).  No matter who you  
>> are, it
>> keeps
>> each voice part on track if they can focus on notehead-stem-lyric  
>> for their
>> own part.  But, I could go on and on about practicality.  There  
>> are several
>> other notational concepts that I despise, but I'd keep you here  
>> until the
>> apocalypse.
>>
>> It boils down to this - I just wish everything was standardized:   
>> just a
>> two-stave hymnbook-style choral score with constant stems up  
>> (soprano &
>> tenor) and stems down (alto and bass), with or without the piano  
>> part as a
>> reduction (if its an a cappella work).  If the parts are more  
>> polyrhythmic
>> and need to be separated on their own individual staves, then it  
>> should be
>> printed that way (with tenors printed in bass clef, of course).   
>> Think
>> about
>> it:  Most tenor parts (of TODAY, not centuries ago), only go up to  
>> F4, G4,
>> A4 at the most, so that's only three ledger lines, not seven.  I  
>> think
>> that's doable.
>>
>>
>>
>> Imagine if cars were made where some had standard the foot pedals,  
>> but then
>> some other types of cars had the accelerator on the left, the  
>> clutch in the
>> middle, and the brake on the right.  Imagine the brain-crash you'd  
>> have in
>> trying to drive that car.  That's how I feel with the damn Treble8  
>> clef.
>> It's not a matter of "getting used to it" as someone had stated.   
>> I AM used
>> to it, I just hate it.
>>
>>
>> All male voice parts should be written in bass clef, no  
>> exception.  This
>> tells you the differentiation between female and male parts at  
>> first sight
>> (and eventually, all "sights.").  If the tenor part ventures high,  
>> and
>> stays
>> there for awhile, then publishers should be a little more  
>> cognizant in
>> their
>> layout in using the bass clef and ledger lines.  They have  
>> ultimate control
>> over that, and it's si

Re: [Finale] Tenor-singers Clefs Discussion wrapup

[Steve Parker]

With the tenor range from (Bb) C to A+ the treble 8 clef is perfect.
It is not being treated as a transposing instrument - it is a different clef to 
a treble clef.
Using bass clef where the tenor vocal range begins in the second space is 
difficult to justify rationally.

As for piano playing, IMHO accompanists should be able to play vocal parts in 
any combination of clefs, string quartets, orchestral scores including 
transpositions and octave displacements.
These things just take a bit of practice but should be toolbox stuff.

Steve P.

On 16 Sep 2011, at 17:55, Raymond Horton wrote:

> Well, it IS standardized, Patrick - you just don't like the standards.  And,
> if you circulated your petitions, sent them to all the major publishers and
> got them to change - just who is going to re-engrave all of the millions of
> works that have been notated already, in clefs you don't like?
> 
> Go back to my example of trombonists for a second.  I mentioned
> the Shostakovitch 5th symphony, I believe.  As I recall, the 2nd trombone
> part is in alto clef throughout, with leger lines below to low Ab and G.
> For ONE WHOLE NOTE low F in the first movement, the part switches to bass
> clef!  Ridiculous!  Take a poll on that one and bass clef would win (if you
> include amateur trombonists in your poll, alto clef would lose in every
> case, no matter what the range).   The next week we may play the same
> composers 10th, in which the parts are quite high and all written in bass
> clef - absurd!   But it's part of being a musician - we read it because it's
> our job.
> 
> Musicians have to read the music that is there.  Composers and arrangers can
> write what ever they want, but if you write for established publishers, you
> write to their standards.  If you publish yourself - use whatever clefs you
> want, sell to whomever buys, have a grand old time.   If you sell more than
> the big publishers, then maybe they will change, and then others can start
> complaining.
> 
> Raymond Horton
> Bass Trombonist, Louisville Orchestra
> Minister of Music, Edwardsville (IN) UMC
> Composer, Arranger
> VISIT US AT rayhortonmusic.com
> 
> 
> On Fri, Sep 16, 2011 at 12:18 PM, Patrick Sheehan <
> patricksheehanmu...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> Thank you all for the historical practices and experience on what you've
>> used and seen.
>> 
>> To clarify, I do not have a problem in reading the Treble8 clef for tenors,
>> I simply find it impractical.
>> News flash: We all have to deal with reading multiple ledger lines
>> (pianists, flutists, violinists).  Don't complain about ledger lines; learn
>> to read them and be comfortable!  We don't have a staff that has 10 lines,
>> only 5.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Someone mentioned that the Treble8 clef for tenors much like a transposing
>> instrument.  Correct!  In this sense, the tenors are reading treble clef
>> notes but what's coming out of their throat is an octave lower, plus they
>> have to think that way too.  What sense does that make?!
>> 
>> Some people have said the bass clef for tenors is not used because of
>> ledger
>> lines.  Well, what fixes that?  Scrupulous layout (in Finale, etc.), and
>> stems in both directions.  I'm also tired of seeing joined stems for tenor
>> and bass parts (if the rhythm is the same).  No matter who you are, it
>> keeps
>> each voice part on track if they can focus on notehead-stem-lyric for their
>> own part.  But, I could go on and on about practicality.  There are several
>> other notational concepts that I despise, but I'd keep you here until the
>> apocalypse.
>> 
>> It boils down to this - I just wish everything was standardized:  just a
>> two-stave hymnbook-style choral score with constant stems up (soprano &
>> tenor) and stems down (alto and bass), with or without the piano part as a
>> reduction (if its an a cappella work).  If the parts are more polyrhythmic
>> and need to be separated on their own individual staves, then it should be
>> printed that way (with tenors printed in bass clef, of course).  Think
>> about
>> it:  Most tenor parts (of TODAY, not centuries ago), only go up to F4, G4,
>> A4 at the most, so that's only three ledger lines, not seven.  I think
>> that's doable.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Imagine if cars were made where some had standard the foot pedals, but then
>> some other types of cars had the accelerator on the left, the clutch in the
>> middle, and the brake on the right.  Imagine the brain-crash you'd have in
>> trying to drive that car.  That's how I feel with the damn Treble8 clef.
>> It's not a matter of "getting used to it" as someone had stated.  I AM used
>> to it, I just hate it.
>> 
>> 
>> All male voice parts should be written in bass clef, no exception.  This
>> tells you the differentiation between female and male parts at first sight
>> (and eventually, all "sights.").  If the tenor part ventures high, and
>> stays
>> there for awhile, then publishers should be a little more cognizant in
>> their
>> layout in using the ba

Re: [Finale] Tenor-singers Clefs Discussion wrapup

[Raymond Horton]

Well, it IS standardized, Patrick - you just don't like the standards.  And,
if you circulated your petitions, sent them to all the major publishers and
got them to change - just who is going to re-engrave all of the millions of
works that have been notated already, in clefs you don't like?

Go back to my example of trombonists for a second.  I mentioned
the Shostakovitch 5th symphony, I believe.  As I recall, the 2nd trombone
part is in alto clef throughout, with leger lines below to low Ab and G.
 For ONE WHOLE NOTE low F in the first movement, the part switches to bass
clef!  Ridiculous!  Take a poll on that one and bass clef would win (if you
include amateur trombonists in your poll, alto clef would lose in every
case, no matter what the range).   The next week we may play the same
composers 10th, in which the parts are quite high and all written in bass
clef - absurd!   But it's part of being a musician - we read it because it's
our job.

Musicians have to read the music that is there.  Composers and arrangers can
write what ever they want, but if you write for established publishers, you
write to their standards.  If you publish yourself - use whatever clefs you
want, sell to whomever buys, have a grand old time.   If you sell more than
 the big publishers, then maybe they will change, and then others can start
complaining.

Raymond Horton
Bass Trombonist, Louisville Orchestra
Minister of Music, Edwardsville (IN) UMC
Composer, Arranger
VISIT US AT rayhortonmusic.com


On Fri, Sep 16, 2011 at 12:18 PM, Patrick Sheehan <
patricksheehanmu...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Thank you all for the historical practices and experience on what you've
> used and seen.
>
> To clarify, I do not have a problem in reading the Treble8 clef for tenors,
> I simply find it impractical.
> News flash: We all have to deal with reading multiple ledger lines
> (pianists, flutists, violinists).  Don't complain about ledger lines; learn
> to read them and be comfortable!  We don't have a staff that has 10 lines,
> only 5.
>
>
>
> Someone mentioned that the Treble8 clef for tenors much like a transposing
> instrument.  Correct!  In this sense, the tenors are reading treble clef
> notes but what's coming out of their throat is an octave lower, plus they
> have to think that way too.  What sense does that make?!
>
> Some people have said the bass clef for tenors is not used because of
> ledger
> lines.  Well, what fixes that?  Scrupulous layout (in Finale, etc.), and
> stems in both directions.  I'm also tired of seeing joined stems for tenor
> and bass parts (if the rhythm is the same).  No matter who you are, it
> keeps
> each voice part on track if they can focus on notehead-stem-lyric for their
> own part.  But, I could go on and on about practicality.  There are several
> other notational concepts that I despise, but I'd keep you here until the
> apocalypse.
>
> It boils down to this - I just wish everything was standardized:  just a
> two-stave hymnbook-style choral score with constant stems up (soprano &
> tenor) and stems down (alto and bass), with or without the piano part as a
> reduction (if its an a cappella work).  If the parts are more polyrhythmic
> and need to be separated on their own individual staves, then it should be
> printed that way (with tenors printed in bass clef, of course).  Think
> about
> it:  Most tenor parts (of TODAY, not centuries ago), only go up to F4, G4,
> A4 at the most, so that's only three ledger lines, not seven.  I think
> that's doable.
>
>
>
> Imagine if cars were made where some had standard the foot pedals, but then
> some other types of cars had the accelerator on the left, the clutch in the
> middle, and the brake on the right.  Imagine the brain-crash you'd have in
> trying to drive that car.  That's how I feel with the damn Treble8 clef.
> It's not a matter of "getting used to it" as someone had stated.  I AM used
> to it, I just hate it.
>
>
> All male voice parts should be written in bass clef, no exception.  This
> tells you the differentiation between female and male parts at first sight
> (and eventually, all "sights.").  If the tenor part ventures high, and
> stays
> there for awhile, then publishers should be a little more cognizant in
> their
> layout in using the bass clef and ledger lines.  They have ultimate control
> over that, and it's simply done (being a copyist and in-demand arranger for
> over 10 years).  The fact is: I've taken a poll with all male vocalists and
> asked them what they would prefer to always see, and they prefer bass clef;
> they say that treble is confusing and it messes with their eye's ear.  The
> same goes for adults.  I think that where things are getting lost and
> mis-practiced are with publishers, which is why I don't go through
> publishers.  Their editors wreak havoc on an original layout / work.  It's
> a
> harsh truth, but it's the truth nonetheless.
>
>
>
>
>
> Patrick J. M. Sheehan
> Music Director, Instructor: Woodlawn Arts Academy
>
> P. 

[Finale] Tenor-singers Clefs Discussion wrapup

[Patrick Sheehan]

Thank you all for the historical practices and experience on what you've
used and seen.

To clarify, I do not have a problem in reading the Treble8 clef for tenors,
I simply find it impractical.  
News flash: We all have to deal with reading multiple ledger lines
(pianists, flutists, violinists).  Don't complain about ledger lines; learn
to read them and be comfortable!  We don't have a staff that has 10 lines,
only 5.  

 

Someone mentioned that the Treble8 clef for tenors much like a transposing
instrument.  Correct!  In this sense, the tenors are reading treble clef
notes but what's coming out of their throat is an octave lower, plus they
have to think that way too.  What sense does that make?!  

Some people have said the bass clef for tenors is not used because of ledger
lines.  Well, what fixes that?  Scrupulous layout (in Finale, etc.), and
stems in both directions.  I'm also tired of seeing joined stems for tenor
and bass parts (if the rhythm is the same).  No matter who you are, it keeps
each voice part on track if they can focus on notehead-stem-lyric for their
own part.  But, I could go on and on about practicality.  There are several
other notational concepts that I despise, but I'd keep you here until the
apocalypse. 

It boils down to this - I just wish everything was standardized:  just a
two-stave hymnbook-style choral score with constant stems up (soprano &
tenor) and stems down (alto and bass), with or without the piano part as a
reduction (if its an a cappella work).  If the parts are more polyrhythmic
and need to be separated on their own individual staves, then it should be
printed that way (with tenors printed in bass clef, of course).  Think about
it:  Most tenor parts (of TODAY, not centuries ago), only go up to F4, G4,
A4 at the most, so that's only three ledger lines, not seven.  I think
that's doable.

 

Imagine if cars were made where some had standard the foot pedals, but then
some other types of cars had the accelerator on the left, the clutch in the
middle, and the brake on the right.  Imagine the brain-crash you'd have in
trying to drive that car.  That's how I feel with the damn Treble8 clef.
It's not a matter of "getting used to it" as someone had stated.  I AM used
to it, I just hate it. 


All male voice parts should be written in bass clef, no exception.  This
tells you the differentiation between female and male parts at first sight
(and eventually, all "sights.").  If the tenor part ventures high, and stays
there for awhile, then publishers should be a little more cognizant in their
layout in using the bass clef and ledger lines.  They have ultimate control
over that, and it's simply done (being a copyist and in-demand arranger for
over 10 years).  The fact is: I've taken a poll with all male vocalists and
asked them what they would prefer to always see, and they prefer bass clef;
they say that treble is confusing and it messes with their eye's ear.  The
same goes for adults.  I think that where things are getting lost and
mis-practiced are with publishers, which is why I don't go through
publishers.  Their editors wreak havoc on an original layout / work.  It's a
harsh truth, but it's the truth nonetheless.  

 

 

Patrick J. M. Sheehan
Music Director, Instructor: Woodlawn Arts Academy

P. S. Music

  patricksheehanmu...@gmail.com

 

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