Re: Clicker Training Clinic
This message is from: Tiffany Amschl There's a clicker training workshop in DeKalb in July. Don't know that Patcfhes would have any interest, but we might want to check it out as auditors anyway? T On Mon, Jun 24, 2013 at 12:59 PM, Katie wrote: > This message is from: Katie > > > Hello Everyone, > Since the topic of clicker training has come up, I thought you'd like to > know > that Shawna Karrasch, one of the nation's top clicker trainers for horses > is > coming to Northern Illinois July 22 - July 24. > Shawna has worked with Beezie Madden, Sue Blnks, Ashley Holzer, Jane > Savoie, > Randy and Keady Caldwell. She has paid her dues both in learning the > science > of animal training through her work at Sea World and learning horsemanship > by > apprenticing with Beezie Madden. > > I've worked with Shawna the better part of the last year and she has > helped me > help Morgen change from a scary, snarky mare, to a horse my vet says is > very > well behaved. Before I could not imagine riding her. Now I can. It used to > be > dangerous to hang hay bags out with Tessie and Morgen together. Now it's > not. > Both mares come when called, off grass. And I'm not the most dedicated or > talented trainer. > > Here are the details: > > Participants with Horses: $120 for one day. $225 for two days (includes > stabling). > > Auditors: $30 for one day. $50 for two days. > > Make checks out to On Target Training for the clinic. Send them to me. > Email > me at katiewi...@aol.com for my address or if you have questions. You can > also > find me on Facebook. > > Shavings: Bring your own or buy them. > > What to bring: Hay, treats, a chair, pen, notebook, horse stuff. > > Please bring an up-to-date Coggins and don't forget a health certificate if > you're coming from out of state. > > We'll take orders for lunch at the local Subway. > > PM me or Email me at katiewi...@aol.com for where to send your > reservations. > > Important FjordHorse List Links: > Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e > FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw > FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l
Re: clicker training
This message is from: Cindy B Giovanetti Cindy said: <> Ulrike said: <> Uli Schnabl,Chase BC>> Cindy follows up: That's not what I said or meant. I said clicker training a pushy horse is NOT for the faint of heart. Gentle people, on the other hand, make wonderful clicker trainers, and pushy horses do beautifully with clicker training. But a gentle person with a pushy horse may have to step outside of their comfort zone at first (which takes courage -- not for the faint of heart) to insist that the horse isn't allowed to push into her to get the treats. I'm speaking from experience here. :) That is why I suggested the person in question contact the ClickRyder yahoo group for advice on their specific situation. I am a firm believer in positive reinforcement. Cindy Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l
RE: clicker training
This message is from: Gail Russell I was ommenting on another post, but I see that I goofed and took out the identifying information of the poster. I suppose that the real problem is that people go to clicker training out of a distate for the roughness of some conventional training, but without some of the requirements needed to extinguish pushy behavior via clicker training.. Like a really good understanding of timing, and the resolve to practice, practice, practice the basics And not to put the horse in a tempting situation until the "alternate incompatible behavior"s are very well installed.. I have a pushy horse that I have had problems clicker training as he has learned to grass dive. He can be handled in a very soft, light way as long as he does not see something else he wants to do more. I have not been consistent enough in my training to get him to the point that he has knee jerk reactions/habits to respond to my cue. I believe that, at some point, horses are helpless to "disobey" because they are just so well trained that they do not even think of doing anything different when cued for a given behavior. ! Getting a horse that has been allowed to get pushy beyond that is not easy. CeCe Henderson had a Fjord stallion who was a serious problem with bolting and pulling away. Alexandra Kurland helped CeCe with him, and CeCe brought the stallion to the Libby show in the late 90's where she did a clicker demonstration. The horse was very good. But CeCe had had expert help. I went to a CHris Ellison clinic last weekend. He has worked with Tom Dorrance and Ray Hunt (probably when he was three years old...he doesn't look that old) . He is a conventional trainer, but I saw something very interesting. There was a big Hackney horse that was standing on top of his owner, throwing his shoulder into his owner on circles and was fearful of approaching other horses. The owner was doing the conventional rope throwing and swinging, and the horse was clearly annoyed/fearful. There was a real possibility that he might eventually decide to kick or strike. All Chris did was gently and persistently move the horse out of his space with the back of his hand, and teach the owner the correct mechanics for "leading" a horse out on a circle, and sending him off without overdoing the cue. By the end of the day, the horse was much softer and looked much happier. The real issue was not to get tough on this gelding, but to use correct mechanics. Part of the reas! on I like clicker training is that, even if you are horrible at the physical mechanics, you can often get the correct behavior because the horse is motivated to figure you out. I clicker train my dog, and am no genius at it, but she fills in for me. If I spent as much time clicker training my horses, I think I would be much further along in extinguishing my gelding's problem behavior. ANother example with my pushy horse. We went to load him in the trailer prior to hauling him a great distance. He was not interested in loading. I tried the rope swinging, and he managed to pull out of his halter (not buckled correctly) and took off. My mechanics with a rope are not good enough to load a horse that knows how to pull away. So, I turned to clicker training. We did put a rope into the trailer and Jim just held it. Then I started asking him to go forward via clicker training. Took about 3 minutes and he was on the trailer with no more drama. Sometimes, I think that the real issue with conventional training that is poorly applied is that even the pushy horses are not just stubborn, but they are sensitive, and are resentful of what comes across to them as unfair punishment for not responding to incomprehensibe cues. That certainly appeared to be the problem with the Big Hackney horse at the clinic. Gail This message is from: Ulrike Schnabl ulischn...@hotmail.com But handler errors do. And it seems to me that gentle natured people are the ones most attracted to clicker training, and most likely to let the horse get away with pushy-ness or rudeness. What a statement Gail,it implies A, that gentle natured people are "faint of heart" and B that they are push overs.I consider myself to be a gentle natured person and let me tell you I am far from both of these implications. Uli Schnabl,Chase BC Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l
Re: Clicker Training Project
This message is from: Toni Wow Gail, What a great youtube video! I have some experience with clicker training. I actually used it to get my horse to calm down for shots. (I was the person who wrote in about my Vet's not so patient practices during spring shots.) My mustang (who is very curious, and thinks everything goes in the mouth) was terrified of the fly spray bottle. He stands quiet now, although in Spring, he may need a refresher course. I used the fly spray bottle (full of water) as the target. When he became interested enough to put the tip in his mouth, I very gently sprayed some water into his mouth. It was a very hot day, and the pleasant look of surprise was quite amusing. He started opening his mouth and "asking" for me to "give him a drink". It set the ground work for spraying his body. I also used clicker training to get my horse to come (at liberty) to the mounting block and stand like a rock. I have a long way to go with him, and lots of "finishing", but when I'm stuck trying to teach him something - out comes the clicker training. Now that I've seen the video, I am pumped to turn my whole pasture into an obstacle course! Toni Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw Classified Ads: http://tinyurl.com/5b5g2f
Re: Clicker Training
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hey Kate, You sound like my kind of horseperson. Riding is fun, but there is s much more you can do with a horse. Too bad they can't come in the house. Sharon Abbott ** See what's new at http://www.aol.com The FjordHorse List archives can be found at: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw
Re: clicker training
This message is from: briar hill farm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> -- Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 01:30:42 -0500 From: "Tamarack Lamb & Wool" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: clicker training This message is from: "Tamarack Lamb & Wool" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> OK, I watched the video and have to wonder this: how many times do you think that lamb will do the agility course without a reward? clearly the only reason the lamb goes through the course is because it was lured through with a treat. anyway, my question is, for those who use clicker training, how long does the animal perform the more complex activities without a food reward or a clicker? Does the enthusiasm wain if the reward (food and associated click) is removed? Janet You might ask, "How long would people continue at their job with out a pay check? Would their enthusiasm wain?" The answer would vary, but most folks would certainly loose interest. So it is with the animals. Animals, like people, are motivated working for a pay check (reward). They are also more likely to continue if they enjoy their work and don't have other concerns. I think of clicker training as a huge way of saying "yes!". Most training techniques have a lot of ways of saying "no", "don't", "quit". Clicker can be incredibly fun for both the trainer and trainee. Marcy Baer Briar Hill Farm www.briarhillfarm.com The FjordHorse List archives can be found at: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw
RE: clicker training
This message is from: "Vanessa N. Weber" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> If anyone wants to read a great book on this, track down Karen Pryor's book 'Don't Shoot the Dog!'. She started out training marine mammals and has written the book so that everyone can understand how this can affect your dogs, your kids or even your spouse! (she claims.) She's a good writer and this book is really fun! Vanessa N Weber -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Gail Russell Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2007 2:08 AM To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com Subject: RE: clicker training This message is from: "Gail Russell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> The person who trained this lamb was using luring to get the behavior, i.e., holding the treat out in front of the lamb. Most dog agility trainers I have seen do the same thing. I think it works fine for them, and is easy to get the behavior, so they do it. In the end, the "luring" behavior by the human becomes the cue (command) for the animal to perform a desired behavior. If the trainer continued to hold a hand out, or point toward the obstacle, but eliminated the food in the hand, I doubt that the lamb would stop performing the trick. He is not really chasing the food, so much as reacting to a cue that tells him a certain behavior will be rewarded. If the trainer abruptly stopped all food rewards, but kept luring, the lamb would eventually stop performing the trick. Luring is not the only way to get a behavior. I do not believe the behavior is learned as thoroughly when it is taught via luring, but that is just my opinion, and is not based on scientific study. However, it is possible to deliberately train the lamb to keep performing for a longer period WITHOUT reward before the behavior is extinguished. The technique is to intermittently reinforce the behavior. (I learned how to do this in college 40 years ago, with pigeons taught to peck a button to get food. A similar behavior has been used in pigeons to guide missiles to their targets, essentially using pigeons who would keep pecking to keep the missile in which they were riding on target until it hit the target. ) As for complicated chains of behaviors, it does take some skill to link the behaviors together. Several years ago at Libby I watched Kongaard chase after and push a ball quite some distance back to his master's feet in order to get a reward. It was a pretty complicated behavior. Once learned, a clicker reinforced behavior is not easily forgotten. I taught Odin a trick about a year ago and then stopped practicing. Tried it again the other day and he immediately performed the behavior. There are people getting doctorate degrees in positive reinforcement training theory, so it is not easy to explain how it all works without writing a bookand,I am not up-to-date on it. I do know that competitive dog obedience people have pretty much all gone to food-based reward systems. Gail The FjordHorse List archives can be found at: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw The FjordHorse List archives can be found at: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw
RE: clicker training
This message is from: "Karen Keith" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> I must have missed a post, but what video? Can you repost the link or send privately? Cheers! Karen, Am in Eng OK, I watched the video and have to wonder this: how many times do you think that lamb will do the agility course without a reward? _ Advertisement: Visit LetsShop.com to WIN Fabulous Books Weekly http://a.ninemsn.com.au/b.aspx?URL=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Eletsshop%2Ecom%2FLetsShopBookClub%2Ftabid%2F866%2FDefault%2Easpx&_t=751480117&_r=HM_Tagline_books&_m=EXT The FjordHorse List archives can be found at: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw
RE: clicker training
This message is from: "Gail Russell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> The person who trained this lamb was using luring to get the behavior, i.e., holding the treat out in front of the lamb. Most dog agility trainers I have seen do the same thing. I think it works fine for them, and is easy to get the behavior, so they do it. In the end, the "luring" behavior by the human becomes the cue (command) for the animal to perform a desired behavior. If the trainer continued to hold a hand out, or point toward the obstacle, but eliminated the food in the hand, I doubt that the lamb would stop performing the trick. He is not really chasing the food, so much as reacting to a cue that tells him a certain behavior will be rewarded. If the trainer abruptly stopped all food rewards, but kept luring, the lamb would eventually stop performing the trick. Luring is not the only way to get a behavior. I do not believe the behavior is learned as thoroughly when it is taught via luring, but that is just my opinion, and is not based on scientific study. However, it is possible to deliberately train the lamb to keep performing for a longer period WITHOUT reward before the behavior is extinguished. The technique is to intermittently reinforce the behavior. (I learned how to do this in college 40 years ago, with pigeons taught to peck a button to get food. A similar behavior has been used in pigeons to guide missiles to their targets, essentially using pigeons who would keep pecking to keep the missile in which they were riding on target until it hit the target. ) As for complicated chains of behaviors, it does take some skill to link the behaviors together. Several years ago at Libby I watched Kongaard chase after and push a ball quite some distance back to his master's feet in order to get a reward. It was a pretty complicated behavior. Once learned, a clicker reinforced behavior is not easily forgotten. I taught Odin a trick about a year ago and then stopped practicing. Tried it again the other day and he immediately performed the behavior. There are people getting doctorate degrees in positive reinforcement training theory, so it is not easy to explain how it all works without writing a bookand,I am not up-to-date on it. I do know that competitive dog obedience people have pretty much all gone to food-based reward systems. Gail The FjordHorse List archives can be found at: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw
Re: clicker training
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In a message dated 9/8/2004 1:10:26 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Would anyone who has successfully clicker trained Fjords share their experiences with me? Either privately or on the list. Hi Valerie- I'd love to. What exactly do you want to know? / )_~ /L/L Brigid Wasson SF Bay Area, CA www.Brigid.Clickryder.com
Re: clicker training
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In a message dated 12/22/02 7:11:15 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > One morning I looked out the window to see my weanling filly > Cieli (kay-lee, Gaelic for "party") on the wrong side of the fence -- in > the house yard, not the pasture. > Wow, DeeAnna! That's quite a successful crash course in clicker training! So glad you got her home safe and taught her something in the meantime. I do a lot of "loose" training. I like my horses to follow me and stay near me because they choose to, not because they are restrained. When the manure hits the fan and your halter falls off, rope breaks, whatever, it's nice to know you're not relying on it 100%. Brigid M Wasson San Francisco Bay Area, CA http://ourfjords.freeservers.com/fjord1/Our_Fjordsx.html";>Our http://ourfjords.freeservers.com/fjord1/Our_Fjordsx.html";>Fjords http://www.ourfjords.freeservers.com/fw/Fjordings_Wesx.html";>Fjordings West / )__~ /L /L
Re: clicker training
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Recently, I have been reading Alexandra Kurlanda's book on clicker training. One morning I looked out the window to see my weanling filly Cieli (kay-lee, Gaelic for "party") on the wrong side of the fence -- in the house yard, not the pasture. We had just gotten her, and I knew she particularly comfortable with human handling. The brief time she'd had a halter on a couple of weeks earler, it had been a crude tug of war between her and her former owner. I was pretty worried that she wouldn't willingly let me put her back in the pasture, so I thought I had nothing to lose by trying this clicker training thing. I went out with a halter, lead rope, and a pocket full of oats. I first concentrated on getting her to recognize that I had treats she liked. When she was "locked on" to the "vending machine" idea, I concentrated on getting her to touch the lead rope with her nose, so she could learn it wasn't scary. To do this, I put the rope right in front of her so it was REALLY easy for her to inadvertently bump it. I clicked with my tongue and gave her a teaspoon or so of oats. This started to get her to associate the click & treat with her doing something, however simple and easy. I then worked with her to let me wrap the rope around the top of her muzzle. At first it was just a tiny touch of the rope on the top of her face - whatever she would tolerate. Then a gentle wrap around the front of her face. Finally a gentle wrap that went all the way around her jaw. Next I taught her it was okay to have the rope touch the top of her head, then drape over her head. We played games like "will Cieli hold the rope if it's draped over her ears and face?" The next game was to get her to drop her muzzle into the open noseband of the halter. I confess it was truly hard the first time she did that for me to not quick-like-a-bunny buckle the halter on. But I didn't -- and that was the right thing for me to do, because she soon was crisply and definitely putting her little muzzle in the noseband -- she was ~~choosing~~ to do this behavior. It was S cool! I then worked with her to drop her nose into the noseband and let me drape the headstall over her poll. Again, DeeAnna had to restrain herself from buckling the halter! Instead, we took the halter off and put it back on several more times, each time with a click and a little treat. When she was used to the on-off process, I buckled the halter on without a fuss. I knew I couldn't really lead her, though, like a trained horse, so I taught Cieli to track me by moving her head. Then when I moved way to one side, she took a step in my direction to make it easier for her to see me -- bingo -- she was learning to follow me. We then worked on getting her feet to move by getting her nose to follow me. I rewarded her one tiny try and one small step at a time. By the time Cieli and I got to the pasture gate, she was following me pretty well on a loose rope. I was so proud of both of us! What could have been a traumatic experience was actually fun. I want to emphasize that I did not lure or bait her by holding treats just out of reach or something like that. After a very short time, Cieli clearly associated getting her treat with doing something that was totally unrelated to the treat. And it didn't take much of a treat to be a meaningful reward -- just a teaspoon or so of plain oats was all she though was necessary. I also found that repeating a behavior (for example: taking the halter on and off several times before ever buckling it) was a key to reinforcing correct behavior. The click says "Yes, that precise thing is exactly right!" The treat says "And you are a good girl for doing that precise thing!". The repetition says "Let's make sure you understand what you've done right!" DeeAnna
Re: clicker training
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In a message dated 12/22/02 8:23:22 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > The interest in clicker training has always baffled me, because I never > could see how it was 'something new'. It appears to be no different than > good old fashioned verbal > reward "good boy" followed by the pat on the neck, treat, or deserved > rest from a strenuous activity used by horsepeople through out history. Hi Janet- Actually what you describe has nothing to do with clicker training, which is far more effective than verbal praise or pressure/release. Rather than repeat what others have posted, I'll give you the link to Alexandra Kurland's website so you can cease to be "baffled." Check it out. I waited over a year to start clicking, and I'm sorry for the time I missed. www.theclickercenter.com Brigid M Wasson San Francisco Bay Area, CA http://ourfjords.freeservers.com/fjord1/Our_Fjordsx.html";>Our http://ourfjords.freeservers.com/fjord1/Our_Fjordsx.html";>Fjords http://www.ourfjords.freeservers.com/fw/Fjordings_Wesx.html";>Fjordings West / )__~ /L /L
Re: clicker training
This message is from: GAIL RUSSELL <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Clicker training involves a (1) bridge signal, followed by 2) positive reinforcement. Clicker training really is not the proper word to describe the concept that people are really trying to get across when they speak about clicker training. However, it does make a useful shorthand, for the proper "scientific, behavioral" descriptives...that are not coming to me now. The clicker is just one of the details of clicker training. You can use "good boy" as a bridge symbol, though there are a few caveats to consider. (1) The bridge signal should be something distinctive, and something that is ONLY used as a bridge signal. If you (or anyone else) are using "good boy" in another context, you are weakening the power of your signal, and confusing the horse in the process. I use a tongue click, but I have to admit that a real "clicker" does work better...because it is such a distinctive sound that the horses take real note of it. Another one of the "details" of clicker training is the fact that the feedback from horse to horsetrainer is more noticeable...and people often realize that they need to break down their training into smaller and smaller steps...each one reinforced for a while, and then added to other steps to complete the behavior. Another "detail" of clicker training is the use of treats as the positive reinforcer. Not absolutely necessary, but, when you break things down into small steps and provide a distinctive bridge signal the horses, by their increased responsiveness, start telling the horsetrainers that they are more highly motivated by treats than by pats or praise. Hope that helps. Gail Russell Forestville CA
Re: clicker training
This message is from: "Warren Stockwell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> I had the same thought, I always ask for a kiss from my 20 year old QH when I go to do chores. He gets a treat and the " good boy" this all started on his natural behavior to slobber me. I just turned it into a trick, something asked for. I always go off the natural talent and turn it into a asked response. When correctly done I need very little if anything else but a treat and my voice. Treat be it food or plane out lovin' ! But as a student of life I bet their is always more to learn. Roberta - Original Message - From: "Janet McNally" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Sunday, December 22, 2002 10:24 AM Subject: clicker training > This message is from: Janet McNally <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > The interest in clicker training has always baffled me, because I never could see how it was 'something new'. It appears to be no different than good old fashioned verbal > reward "good boy" followed by the pat on the neck, treat, or deserved rest from a strenuous activity used by horsepeople through out history. With time your horse will > realize that "gd boy" means he did what you wanted. My voice is infinitely handier than any other device, leaves my hands free, and I do not have to buy a clicker, or > books and tapes to use it. > > Janet
Re: clicker training
This message is from: Marsha Jo Hannah <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Janet McNally <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > The interest in clicker training has always baffled me, because I > never could see how it was 'something new'. It appears to be no > different than good old fashioned verbal reward "good boy" > followed by the pat on the neck, treat, or deserved rest from a > strenuous activity used by horsepeople through out history. With > time your horse will realize that "gd boy" means he did what > you wanted. The difference is that the "marker signal" of clicker training has one and only one meaning. Most folks use "good boy" for several different purposes. On any given day, I might utter those words as part of a greeting to an animal, as an "encourager" (you're doing something interesting, keep doing it), as a "marker signal" (you just did exactly what I want, so you can STOP now so I can give you a treat for it), or as the actual reward. So, the horse has to figure out which meaning I'm using (possibly keying on the tone in which I say it), and puzzle out exactly what bit of behavior that happened before or during the "good boy" (which can sometimes take a couple of seconds to utter) is the thing that I want more of. Trainers like the clicker because the sound is short, obvious, and (ideally) is only used to "bridge" between the behavior and the reward. With a bridge signal, one can work at a distance from the animal, telling it precisely what behaviors are worth repeating, then delivering rewards (which can be food, scritches, praise, or the biggie---ending the lesson) in a more leisurely fashion. > My voice is infinitely handier than any other device, leaves my hands > free, and I do not have to buy a clicker, or books and tapes to use it. The (a.k.a. marker signal or bridge signal) can be anything--- whistle, finger-snap, spoken word, mechanical click, or tongue click. Most horsemen use a tongue click (not the "gitty-up" cluck, but a back-of-mouth TOCK sound), because of the hands-free issue. Those who want to use a clicker can "recycle" one---almost any food that comes in a vacuum-packed bottle or jar will have a lid with a pop-up dome in the middle---baby food or Snapple lids are a handy size. That click is more muted than that of the "toy" clicker, but the softer sound can be a plus for a jumpy equine. As for the books, well, I NEEDED to read about the underlying behavioral science. It may have been presented in my college courses, but that was decades ago, and I didn't have any animals to train at the time, so the material may have been "learned" in "take the final and forget it" mode! Understanding the various ways in which "rewards" and "punishments" can be used, and their side effects made me a better trainer, no matter what style I'm using. (Very few "clicker trainers" use "pure" clickering---most use it to enhance other methods.) I was skeptical about it for years, until I gave it a try on some of my donkey's mis-learned behaviors. I was pretty astonished with the results I got---using a marker signal can greatly speed up explaining a behavior to an animal! But, yes, it does have to be studied a little, and one does have to learn how to teach with it, and the animal does have to learn how to learn that way. OTOH, "the clicker game" can be a lot of fun---for BOTH the human and the equine. Marsha Jo HannahMurphy must have been a horseman-- [EMAIL PROTECTED] anything that can go wrong, will! 15 mi SW of Roseburg, Oregon
Re: Clicker Training
This message is from: Marsha Jo Hannah <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > GAIL RUSSELL <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > The horse, by the way, believes he is training YOU. That's true, even outside of clicker training. More than once, I've gotten the definite impression that one of my horses "said", "Yes, that's it! Whew, I was beginning to think that she'd NEVER get that part right" ;-) Marsha Jo HannahMurphy must have been a horseman-- [EMAIL PROTECTED] anything that can go wrong, will! 15 mi SW of Roseburg, Oregon
Re: Clicker Training
This message is from: GAIL RUSSELL <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> At 01:22 PM 4/27/2001 -0500, you wrote: >This message is from: "Pasqual, Tish" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >You said it much better than I did! > >Gail said: " I misunderstood. You were saying...treat every time while you >are trying to >induce the behavior and get it initially, then reduce to intermittantly to >maintain it. That makes sense." And Jean added something equally important. Start treating intermittantly to induce better quality behaviormore steps of backing, more precise ways of executing the maneuver. (They get frustrated and start trying new, slightly varied things to get that **&^%(&% missing click. Then jackpot for the improved behavior when they finally get it right. Ignore all the unwanted behaviors that come while the horse is experimenting to see what will make you treat him. The horse, by the way, believes he is training YOU. GAil Gail Russell Forestville CA [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Clicker Training
This message is from: Jean Ernest <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To clarify this, if you really want great behavior, do not click every time after they learn the behavior..but as you said, it is like gambling, they keep trying, offering a little more effort, in hopes that THIS TIME they will get the treat! It is this same thing that reinforces bad behavior, for instance, if your child is crying and fussing at you to get something (a cookie or piece of candy, etc,) and you finally give in just to get him to shut up, he is reinforced to try harder next time knowing that you will finally give in so you have just increased the bad behavior! So, if your horse has learned to back one step and gets clicked and treated, and he understands that command to back, if you click and treat every time he backs one step he will not bother to take any more than one step. Now if you just intermittently click and treat, (no set pattern) he will keep trying, hoping that "maybe THIS is the time I will get the reward", and increase his effort, maybe backing several steps. So then you click and treat. To extinguish a behavior, you have to never give in..the child's fussing and crying for the cookie will increase, yes, but if you give in at the height of the fussing, you have just rewarded the increased fussing! Instead, somehow ask for another behavior. (This is tough, sometimes!) >I believe that the "treat every time for (in other words, TO GET) good >behavior, intermittantly for great behavior" is a quote right out of the >clicker training book. She explains that like humans gambling, the whole >point is that you never know when the reward is coming, so you pay attention >and are interested in the activity (gambling). Horses too will pay more >attention if they don't predictably get a "payout" every time. Jean in Fairbanks, Alaska, with 16 1/2 hour daylight and 50 degrees. Jean Ernest Fairbanks, Alaska mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Clicker Training
This message is from: GAIL RUSSELL <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> I misunderstood. You were saying...treat every time while you are trying to induce the behavior and get it initially, then reduce to intermittantly to maintain it. That makes sense. I am off for Norway, so will have to continue discussion when I get home (if anyone is still interested). The thing I am pondering is inserting commands. I know that clicker proponents say to introduce a command after the behavior is well established (reliably presented and well-executed). I keep wanting to insert the command early, in hopes of weeding out all the other "volunteer" behavior at an early stage. > >I believe that the "treat every time for (in other words, TO GET) good >behavior, intermittantly for great behavior" is a quote right out of the >clicker training book. She explains that like humans gambling, the whole >point is that you never know when the reward is coming, so you pay attention >and are interested in the activity (gambling). Horses too will pay more >attention if they don't predictably get a "payout" every time. > >Tish and Elph > > > Gail Russell Forestville CA [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: clicker training/"kindness"/dog bite
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In a message dated 4/23/01 11:59:50 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: << I have seen it all with these dogs and I know the difference between all the types of bites they can do. I should hope horse people do, too. Their are many things an animal will convey with their mouths. It's not always aggression. >> Hi Mary- Thanks for your post! I too have experience with Cattle Dogs and know that look! My original post which started the lively conversation was in response to a question about a "mouthy, lippy" Fjord. Seems this horse's behavior had more to do with playfulness than aggression. You made an important point when you suggest all "bites" have different intentions. Proactive animal training is more about watching and waiting than reacting. Brigid M Wasson San Francisco Bay Area, CA http://members.nbci.com/mrgnpetsit/fjord1";>Our Fjords
Re: Clicker Training
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In a message dated 2/9/01 3:21:24 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: << Is anyone out there doing clicker training with their Fjords? >> A big YES. I love clicker training. The possibilities are endless! Brigid Wasson San Francisco Bay Area, CA http://members.nbci.com/mrgnpetsit/fjord1";>Our Fjords
Re: Clicker training,turkeys
This message is from: "Patryjak" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Jane wrote:
Re: clicker training
This message is from: "truman matz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> I don't know how to do the clicker training, but if you do, why don't you purchase a "turkey call" from a sporting goods store, and desensitize with the clicker training. Might work. Judy in AR. -Original Message- From: Don & Jane Brackett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com Date: Sunday, January 14, 2001 7:31 PM Subject: Re: clicker training >This message is from: Don & Jane Brackett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >Other times I've spotted flocks > ahead and put him into a trot to blast thru them like a bowling ball > thru ten pins. Pferd loves his turkey chases. > >HaHa I can see it now. Too funny. Osa did the same with the sheep when >we first got her and she had no horse mate. My shepherdess side felt it >wasn't so nice for the sheep though and I put her in an adjoining >pasture. Maybe I shouldn't have and she'd just see the turkeys as sheep >with feathers!!! Actually when she sees the turkeys she ignores them, >it's just that gobble in the woods that jump her. I told my husband >today that I wanted to make a tape of turkeys gobbling to play in the >barn. He thought I'd finally flipped. But I think it's a good idea. >Tie it in with the clicker training??? Maybe other scary noises >too.lions and tigers and bears? ;) >Jane >
Re: clicker training
This message is from: Don & Jane Brackett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Other times I've spotted flocks ahead and put him into a trot to blast thru them like a bowling ball thru ten pins. Pferd loves his turkey chases. HaHa I can see it now. Too funny. Osa did the same with the sheep when we first got her and she had no horse mate. My shepherdess side felt it wasn't so nice for the sheep though and I put her in an adjoining pasture. Maybe I shouldn't have and she'd just see the turkeys as sheep with feathers!!! Actually when she sees the turkeys she ignores them, it's just that gobble in the woods that jump her. I told my husband today that I wanted to make a tape of turkeys gobbling to play in the barn. He thought I'd finally flipped. But I think it's a good idea. Tie it in with the clicker training??? Maybe other scary noises too.lions and tigers and bears? ;) Jane
Re: clicker training
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In a message dated 1/13/01 3:06:26 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > Thank you for the clicker training info. Brigid and Gail. > I'll give it a try. Just have to figure out how to make those wild LOL! Yes, the chickens in my situation were quite tame. But they slept under a tarp at night - that was the biggest "scary," a moving, clucking tarp : ) I would suggest doing simple clicker requests in the vicinity of the turkeys ... like walk, whoa, walk, whoa. Target a ball or something. Easy stuff, to get her attention on you rather than those horse-eating turkeys! I achieved great success (big pat on the back!) with Tommes and the "spooky corner" of the arena. Why it's spooky I'm not sure. Could be because it borders the neighbor's ranch where other horses/cattle/ machinery can be heard but not clearly seen through the fence. Well, Tommes normally avoided the corner, and when guided into it, "powered out" unseating me twice! We practiced walking/trotting on the rail, clicking for good gaits, transitions, whoas etc. I clicked closer and closer to the bad spot (the horse automatically stops when he hears the click and looks for his treat). Before I knew it, we were smack dab in the middle of that corner! Click!! Now he will go deeply into the corner and stay nicely on the rail without me having to "correct" or "hold" him there with a rein or leg. The worst I get now in the formerly spooky corner is an ear flick towards the neighbor's property. I'm a believer! Brigid in CA
Re: clicker training
This message is from: GAIL RUSSELL <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> OOPsyou do have a slightly more difficult problem. Borrow a tame turkey and put it in a cage maybe? You can click her whenever she stops and faces them...essentially John Lyons' "spook in place" lessons. At 07:30 PM 1/13/2001 +, you wrote: >This message is from: Don & Jane Brackett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >I'll give it a try. Just have to figure out how to make those wild >turkeys hold still long enough for Osa to touch them!! Gail Russell Forestville CA [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: clicker training
This message is from: Don & Jane Brackett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Thank you for the clicker training info. Brigid and Gail. I'll give it a try. Just have to figure out how to make those wild turkeys hold still long enough for Osa to touch them!! VBG Maybe I can find a pet one that I could borrow. We have chickens but she doesn't seem to relate them to those monster turkeys gobbling in the woods. Jane
Re: Clicker training
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > This message is from Carol at [EMAIL PROTECTED] > In reference to Gail Russel's suggestion about Clicker Training for a two > year old. I was told that Fjords should never be fed treats by hand because > of their tendency to bite. The concept of Clicker Training makes sense to > me, but what about this issue? Carol ... Fjords can be very mouthy, but I wouldn't say you could never feed them treats by hand. If you are a rookie, just learning how to handle your weegie and he is getting away with everything short of murder, I'd say absolutely no hand feeding until his ground manners and your handling abilities have improved. I've had my horses several years now and we went from them mugging for treats to them just knowing that that kind of behavior simply isn't done. I have a bag of apples for Aagot in the fridge and I go out, whistle for her and toss the apple into the air so she can see it when she looks up at me, and she gets a little exercise running up the hill across the pasture for it. She doesn't mug me, she munches cheerfully, she does not get mad when I come out the next time without a treat. I don't whistle for the ponies unless I do have a treat which helps refine our communications. She loves those cold apples on these muggy Southern summer days. (dumb pun :-) absolutely intended) (Please tell me if this post goes through with any computer mumbo-jumbo attached to it; I've got a new mailbox with CompuServe, don't know if I've set it up right or not) >><< Meredith Sessoms >><< Tooksend Art >><< Moulton . Alabama . USA
Re: Clicker training
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In a message dated 8/16/00 5:29:14 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: << I was told that Fjords should never be fed treats by hand because of their tendency to bite. The concept of Clicker Training makes sense to me, but what about this issue? >> If you properly clicker train you will train away the tendency to bite. IE, they will NOT get a reward or a treat UNLESS they get a click. They learn really quick that biting or mugging is not the way to go, and that the treat needs to be earned. Pamela
Re: Clicker training at Libby
This message is from: "Starfire Farm, LLC" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sounds like Libby is going to be some fun this year! We're getting ready already! Looking forward to seeing everyone. Beth
Re: Clicker training?
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] The vet's name is Kaufman. He is in Santa Rosa. Hope it all goes well. :-}
Re: Clicker training?
This message is from: GAIL RUSSELL <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Tami - what is the name of the vet? Just curious. Re clicker - go to this site and look around. http://www.crisny.org/users/kurlanda/sample%20chapter.html#anchor469064 >Tami > >Tomorrow is the tell all big day! Soroya gets her vet check. Hope it all >goes well! :-) > > Gail Russell Forestville CA [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Clicker training?
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hello! I have never heard of clicker training before, but would love to get some information on it. If there are any videos that are good or books that I should read I would love to get some titles. I am in the process of purchasing a yearling Fjord and this clicker training has really caught my attention. Tami Tomorrow is the tell all big day! Soroya gets her vet check. Hope it all goes well! :-)
Re: clicker training at Libby/Turlock
This message is from: GAIL RUSSELL <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> OK, OK, you guys. I'm looking into things. :) I just finished catering a friend's wedding and told myself and the "spiritual powers that be" that I would NEVER take on a project like this again without adequate consideration of my available time! So I'm committing to nothing YET. However, lots of enthusiasm from you might just encourage me to take steps in that direction. :) I will contact Alexandra about possibly doing a clinic at Turlock or Libby. Not optimistic about doing a hands-on full-blown clinic this year, as I assume it would be difficult to work things into the schedule without more advance notice. Ideally we would plan ahead to take an extra day for the clinic, probably before the show starts. That would require everyone to rearrange their plans to come a day early or stay late. Probably a bit late for that. I will also contact Sherrie Dayton at<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> and see about Libby scheduling - and Sami about Turlock. The other alternative would be to try to organize some kind of demo - and an "information booth." I wrote Ceacy to see if she is planning on being at Libby and could do a brief demo. Ideally there would be a clicker trained horse available to demonstrate the more advanced stuff. The early training could be demonstrated on Fjord guinea pigs who "volunteered" from the "audience." Or we could even try a demo/hands on clinic on some volunteer chickens. (Chickens are, apparently, ideal subjects for practicing clicker technique - which can then be extrapolated to horses, children, husbands, wives, etc.). If all else failed, I could attempt a demo myself - with the audience providing massive positive reinforcement and moral support. :) We could also arrange to show one or more of the videos on clicker training during the evenings (rent a TV-VCR combo and set up in the "camp area"). And write a simple "how to" sheet, plus add material on Internet resources. Also sell books. Alexandra has her "full blown" book for $24.95 (+/-) and, also, a starter booklet for $8.95. Perhaps Steve and Cynthia could donate a home video of Tank's accomplishments to show as well. We could sell giant posters of Tank retrieving his stall ball? :) And, isn't there a video somewhere of Alexandra's demo with Ceacy's horses at Equitana? So... I'm not promising anything beyond making some initial contacts. But these are possibilities thrown out for feedback. Ruthie - will send you some Internet sites in a bit. Alexandra has a post on getting started in clicker training that would probably get you started. >I contacted Sherrie Dayton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> who is in charge of scheduling >for the Libby show and asked if a clicker training session would be a >possibility this year. She said there might be an opening on Friday so if >anyone feels so inclined they might contact her about it. > > Gail Russell Forestville CA [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: clicker training list - for horses
This message is from: Steve McIlree <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Gail-- Sunday, 18 October 1998, you wrote: > There is a clicker training list for horses only. It is in its > infancy, but worth getting. The Clickryder seems to have a pretty good message volume already. I signed up for it yesterday, and have already seen some pretty good discussions. Anyone who wants to check out this list can subscribe at: http://www.onelist.com/subscribe.cgi/clickryder -- Steve McIlree & Cynthia Madden -- Pferd, Keyah, Skipper, Tank -- Omaha, Nebraska, USA Do not go where the path may lead, go instead where there is no path and leave a trail. -- Ralph Waldo Emerson
Re: clicker training list - for horses
This message is from: GAIL RUSSELL <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Hi all, There is a clicker training list for horses only. It is in its infancy, but worth getting. I believe I subscribed on one list. Busy with elderly parents right now, but will hunt down the subscribe information if no one else posts it. Until this list was started I got all my clicker training info for horses from the horseman list. Gail
