Re: Stallion Strength
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In a message dated 8/6/99 4:44:34 Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: << I myself don't think that the teenagers of today are any weaker than they were 50 or 100 years ago. >> Amen! I read the line about "soft" teenagers and laughed! Thinking of my nephew. 15 years old, and out there after school and weekends, working like a man. He takes after his father, and my father. Loves the sea. His favorite Christmas presents are fishing rods. He works on a boat that takes weekend fishermen out, helps them fish, and cleans up after them. His description of cleaning up after a barricuda fishing day is priceless!!! Then he does his roller hockey thing (and he's quite good). Helps maintain the house. A good kid. Strong. Oh my, and so many others that I know. Though I work with Special Needs kids, I do get out into the rest of the world and see strength, kindness abounding with today's youth. Especially the young horsepeople (who by the way have fallen in love with fjords after seeing Juniper!). And if you want to see strong fjords, drop by Lisa Pedersen's She has SHAMED me! Those horses are fit, healthy, happy. I SWEAR one of them smiled at me! . And her workout regime sigh. I came home, looked at my horses and told them the party was over! Pamela
Re: Stallion Strength
This message is from: "Mike May, Registrar NFHR" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> At 08:24 PM 8/5/99 -0300, you wrote: Why are today's teenagers weaker than than their grandparents were? Sounds like an interesting topic of conversation to me. This is the problem exactly with generalizing in general. ;-) I myself don't think that the teenagers of today are any weaker than they were 50 or 100 years ago. For an example just look at some sports records that are being broken every year. This doesn't happen with weaklings. Sure some of the kids of today sit and do nothing but watch TV & play video games. But it isn't all of them just as I don't think it is true that there aren't any "Strong" Fjord stallions left. As to why today's stallions may not be as strong as stallions of yesteryear, I don't know why, and I don't think Van Bon does either. Maybe it's because they're not worked as they once were. Maybe a combination of reasons. And maybe it's not even a fact at all. Yes maybe it isn't a fact at all. Because if it is a fact then it certainly doesn't say much for the controlled breeding that is going on over there. If anything we should be seeing much "stronger" stallions coming around these days. That is what the program is all about isn't it? Mike === Norwegian Fjord Horse Registry Mike May, Registrar Voice 716-872-4114 FAX 716-787-0497 http://www.nfhr.com mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Stallion Strength
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Arthur Rivoire) Good Day from Carol Rivoire at Beaver Dam Farm in Nova Scotia - To Steve - Why is it when I bring up a subject, you call it "self-serving"? Sorry to have mentioned Gjest's name, but it's one of the stallions Van Bon used as an example of strong, older stallions. He could just as well have used Astrix or Grabb, or Westmann, or Oigaard Damgard, etc., any of the older stallions. Why should this topic generate such heat and flag waving? (flaming didn't come from me). My question to the List was, "How do we keep the breed strong?" And I used Van Bon's comment as a lead in. - Brian Jacobsen gave one good answer - He said line breeding is detrimental to the health and vigor of the breed. (Lest anyone jump on that . . Fjords are not linebred in Holland). . . Sorry if I'm overly sensitive. Another answer might be to encourage more sport use of the breed, or any use that tests the strength and durability of the horses. As to my "side-stepping" the question as to what Van Bon meant, --- My intention wasn't to side-step. I simply took his statement at face value. --- My father might have said, "They don't make boys like they used to." Trite as that sounds . . . he'd probably be right. - Playing Nintendo and riding the school bus, rather than chopping wood and walking to school, doesn't develop the bodies of old. Why are today's teenagers weaker than than their grandparents were? Sounds like an interesting topic of conversation to me. As to why today's stallions may not be as strong as stallions of yesteryear, I don't know why, and I don't think Van Bon does either. Maybe it's because they're not worked as they once were. Maybe a combination of reasons. And maybe it's not even a fact at all. My old friend, Coupe, had a Percheron stallion that worked all day hauling timber on a mountainside, and at the end of the day was loaded on a truck to go from farm to farm breeding mares. That was a tried and true stallion. Van Bon was talking about Fjordhorses in general, not just Fjords in his country. I thought it an interesting topic, and a way to get people thinking about how to safeguard the strengths of the breed. Vivian explained the Dutch breeding system. That it's not run by the government, just subsidized by the government. And why do they do that? Because they want mare owners to breed to quality stallions, so they subsidize the keep of a select group of stallions and make them available at low fees. What's not to like about that system? Everybody says it couldn't happen here . . . but maybe it is possible. Think about what Karen McCarthy said. We all love this European breed, and therefore admit Europeans have done a good job. So why is it Un-American to suggest we follow their lead? It continually amazes me, but seems like nothing gets American dander up so fast as to suggest we might learn something from foreigners. Regards, Carol Rivoire Carol and Arthur Rivoire Beaver Dam Farm Fjords II R.R. 7 Pomquet Antigonish County Nova Scotia B2G 2L4 902 386 2304 http://www3.ns.sympatico.ca/beaverdf
Re: Stallion Strength
This message is from: "Mike May, Registrar NFHR" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> At 10:20 AM 8/5/99 -0400, you wrote: This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hi, Mike. I'd love to know just how many fjords there are in this country. So would I. If you figure out how to find that out let me know. === Norwegian Fjord Horse Registry Mike May, Registrar Voice 716-872-4114 FAX 716-787-0497 http://www.nfhr.com mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Stallion Strength
This message is from: "B. Hendricks" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Hi: I really don't understand all the concern about line breeding that has been expressed recently. Every breed of domestic animal I have studied has been brought to its present "type" through the careful use of line breeding. The only thing wrong with linebreeding is the lack of judicial culling. Linebreeding doesn't "create" any bad qualities in an animal, it makes the qualities it has prepotent. With careful breeding and culling, the undesirable qualities are eliminated and the desirable ones are intensified. The King Ranch in Texas produced some of the best families of Quarter Horses in the world and became famous for its horses, through the use of Old Sorrel. He was perfect, had it all the way they wanted in a horse, so they made him their main sire. At first they tried breeding him to his daughters, and the results were not what they wanted, so they eliminated those. Next, they bred some of his good sons to their half-sisters, and it worked. Those horses were prepotent for the good qualities of Old Sorrel, and years later they still held those qualities, as breeders would from time to time breed back into that line. It takes ruthless culling, but I could point to the successful use of this practice in almost every horse and cattle breed on the planet. So... this discussion against linebreeding has baffled me and has me doing a lot of pondering. Bonnie Commissioned Horse Portraits, Oil Paintings, Prints, Books http://www.hendricksgallery.com and http://members.xoom.com/BHendricks/Gallery1.html - Original Message - From: Mike May, Registrar NFHR <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Thursday, August 05, 1999 12:36 PM Subject: Re: Stallion Strength > This message is from: "Mike May, Registrar NFHR" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > At 07:50 PM 8/4/99 -0400, you wrote: > >NOT that this has much to do with fjords . With the limited number of > >fjords in the states we'll keep bumping into the same bloodlines and I don't > >think many stallions will be breeding 40+ mares. If I'm wrong, I'd like to > >be enlightened. Thanks! > > I can't remember ever getting more than 3 pages of Stallion Breeding > Reports for any stallion we have registered. If all spaces were filled > that would be 18 mares covered in one year. It is interesting to look > through the data and see just how many offspring some of the stallions > have. The record as far as I can tell goes to King Gjestar. He has 71 > offspring in my database. Then come Gjest with 69 & Solar with 68. Now > these are offspring in my database. There probably are more out there that > never got registered. > > Mike > > === > > Norwegian Fjord Horse Registry > Mike May, Registrar > Voice 716-872-4114 > FAX 716-787-0497 > > http://www.nfhr.com > mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >
Re: Stallion Strength
This message is from: "Mike May, Registrar NFHR" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> At 07:42 AM 8/5/99 -0800, you wrote: This message is from: Jean Ernest <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Mike, I just checked the Canadian Fjord Horse Association page on the CLRC Website http://www.clrc.on.ca/fjord.html and looked up Rudaren and Leidjo. Rudaren (who died in l995) has 75 offspring REGISTERED with the CFHA and Leidjo has 93 offspring REGISTERED. I wonder how many offspring these two stallions have who were registered with another regsitry and not with CFHA? Well I have 31 by Rudaren & 22 by Leido Mike, I'm still waiting to be able to access the NFHR records..How is that program coming? Well I think the person that is doing it is riding her Fjords right now. Looks like a winter project. Sure would be fun to be able to look up any registered fjord and see what his offspring are, like on the CFHA site. I couldn't agree more. Mike === Norwegian Fjord Horse Registry Mike May, Registrar Voice 716-872-4114 FAX 716-787-0497 http://www.nfhr.com mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Stallion Strength
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > I seem to have a hard time making my points clear. Carol, That was my point in replying to your post. Namely that it isn't clear to me (it still isn't, even after this post) how your statements about the European breeding systems being positive, and Von Bon's comments you repeated about declining stallion "strength" are anything but contradictory. Will you clarify this for us? > > Those people gloating over the "weaknesses" in European stallions vs. the > "strengths" of North American stallions might do well to think about this: I'm not sure if my questions are being referred to as "gloating". I made my point in good faith in response to apparently contradictory statements, and would still like to understand how the two can be reconciled. On another point, that is the tone of some posts to the list, some of the posters seem to very easily "get our knickers in a knot". Folks, life's too short to sweat the small stuff.
Re: Stallion Strength
This message is from: Jean Ernest <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Mike, I just checked the Canadian Fjord Horse Association page on the CLRC Website http://www.clrc.on.ca/fjord.html and looked up Rudaren and Leidjo. Rudaren (who died in l995) has 75 offspring REGISTERED with the CFHA and Leidjo has 93 offspring REGISTERED. I wonder how many offspring these two stallions have who were registered with another regsitry and not with CFHA? There are now some very good stallions sired by Rudaren that are breeding, as well an many mares. I believe that Rudaren, especially has contributed greatly to the quality of Fjords in North America and Leidjo is further adding a lot of quality and still going strong. Mike, I'm still waiting to be able to access the NFHR records..How is that program coming ? Sure would be fun to be able to look up any registered fjord and see what his offspring are, like on the CFHA site. I'd like to hear more from the Canadians about other prominent Canadian stallions. And Anne Appleby, you must Know about some of these? Jean in Fairbanks, Alaska, Sunny and will be hot: 85 degrees today. > It is interesting to look >through the data and see just how many offspring some of the stallions >have. The record as far as I can tell goes to King Gjestar. He has 71 >offspring in my database. Then come Gjest with 69 & Solar with 68. Now >these are offspring in my database. There probably are more out there that >never got registered. > >Mike Jean Ernest Fairbanks, Alaska [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Stallion Strength
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hi, Mike. I'd love to know just how many fjords there are in this country.
Re: Stallion Strength
This message is from: "Mike May, Registrar NFHR" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> At 07:50 PM 8/4/99 -0400, you wrote: NOT that this has much to do with fjords . With the limited number of fjords in the states we'll keep bumping into the same bloodlines and I don't think many stallions will be breeding 40+ mares. If I'm wrong, I'd like to be enlightened. Thanks! I can't remember ever getting more than 3 pages of Stallion Breeding Reports for any stallion we have registered. If all spaces were filled that would be 18 mares covered in one year. It is interesting to look through the data and see just how many offspring some of the stallions have. The record as far as I can tell goes to King Gjestar. He has 71 offspring in my database. Then come Gjest with 69 & Solar with 68. Now these are offspring in my database. There probably are more out there that never got registered. Mike === Norwegian Fjord Horse Registry Mike May, Registrar Voice 716-872-4114 FAX 716-787-0497 http://www.nfhr.com mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Stallion Strength
This message is from: "carl and sarah nagel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Vivian - thank you for the information on the Dutch Studbooks. I appreciate it! And I feel s much better. The idea of 'government involvement' gets my hackles up - and that's for sure! Sarah Nagel feeling so much better in Northern Idaho with June and Sonny :-) -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Wednesday, August 04, 1999 3:35 PM Subject: Re: Stallion Strength >This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >Breeding of Fjord Horses as well as other breeds in the Netherlands is >"controlled" by independent stud books not the Dutch government. The Fjord >stud book cannot make you geld your stallion however it will issue papers of >resulting offspring in a color to indicate that the parents were either not >evaluated or not evaluated favourably. > >The gestapo will not come to your farm and shoot your horses and haul you off >to jail. > > People may privately own stallions and they can go through the evaluations >and if said stallion is favourably evaluated he will be represented in the >Stallion Roster. However most people choose to allow the studbooks to own the >stallions and farmers lease them on a yearly basis. Just because a certain >stallion is standing in your district that year there is nothing preventing >an individual from taking their mare outside the district to breed to a >particular stallion. > >Evaluations and record keeping are the studbook's job and the studbook is >run by a BOD of interested individuals, none of whom are stallion owners by >the way. The Dutch government is not involved in setting policy for >individual breed organizations. > Vivian Creigh >
Re: Stallion Strength/ Gov. involement
This message is from: "Karen McCarthy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sarah, just a little bit of perspective on this Gov't involvemnt issue as regards breeding: In the U.K. the Agricultural Society sponsors (read supports), several improvement schemes for breeding the various categories over there, racehorses, light thru heavyweight hunters, the native pony breeds, etc... Horses that are winners on the line and in performance competion are bought or leased by the Gov't and are promoted for breeding throughout the country for reasonable fees, so that access to good blood need not be only for those who can afford it. I have always liked this idea, and I find it sad, but true that something akin to this could not be a part of the breeding picture here in this country. Americans are just too caught up in their own personal gain and ego to such an extent as to make something like this impossible. Just imagine if you will, the NFHR chose to rotate a selection of proven and evaluated stallions, at a set rate, for a certain time period, thru the major geographic areas...what think you now? Wouldn't you want to have your stallion selected? Wouldn't you want to be able to breed your mare to a desireable bloodline that had previously been at too great a distance to ship your mare to, and that had a steep & un-affordable ( to you ),stud fee ? Just some wild food for thought; a fjord pipe dream.. Karen, -presently enjoying the negative ions from the Nevada monsoons ___ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com
Re: Stallion Strength
This message is from: "Nathan Lapp" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >As individuals, breeders can do a much superior job of breeding their horses >than can a government controlled agency. We DON'T need the government to >tell us what stallions or mares to breed Thanks, Sarah, for sharing this. Breed assoications can do a fine job of guiding (not controlling) breeding practices. I also liked what someone else--was it Bill Coli?--contributed lately about buyers being a good breed regulator. In other words, if breeders don't produce the right thing they'll lose their market. The biggest danger our breed organization might face would be politicizing within its ranks and limiting the potential of market-driven forces that would keep the breed sound. It has happened in many of the American Kennel Club breeds. With all of these good awareness discussions maybe the Fjords will remain the beauties they are today for many years to come! Barbara Lyn Lapp
Re: Stallion Strength
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In a message dated 8/4/99 16:43:55 Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: << I wonder what is the ideal number of females to each male in a purebred limited gene pool? >> I don't know about the limited gene pool, but I know with TB's they really like to limit a stallion's cover to 40 or so mares a year. This is one way that Calumet ruined itself, and oversaturated the market. When the heir's husband took over, he bred Alydar way too much. Interesting story, the book Wild Ride, about Alydar, Calumet, and the tragic end to a legacy. It became such an ugly story, I couldn't bear to read the last quarter of the book! NOT that this has much to do with fjords . With the limited number of fjords in the states we'll keep bumping into the same bloodlines and I don't think many stallions will be breeding 40+ mares. If I'm wrong, I'd like to be enlightened. Thanks! Pamela
Re: Stallion Strength
This message is from: "Meredith Sessoms" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> I wonder what is the ideal number of females to each male in a purebred limited gene pool? If there are too many males, you won't have any breed type. If there are too few males being used, when problems crop up they get entrenched within the population and can't be gotten rid of. Meredith Sessoms Soddy-Daisy TN USA mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] ~ Dorina & NFR Aagot ~
Re: Stallion Strength
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hello Vivian, Thanks so much for clarifying that! I was wondering how on earth these countries found the time, people, etc., to control all the various horse breeds. Lynda Daniel Bailey and Lynda C. Welch Bailey Bailey's Norwegian Fjord Horse Farm White Cloud, MI
Re: Stallion Strength
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Breeding of Fjord Horses as well as other breeds in the Netherlands is "controlled" by independent stud books not the Dutch government. The Fjord stud book cannot make you geld your stallion however it will issue papers of resulting offspring in a color to indicate that the parents were either not evaluated or not evaluated favourably. The gestapo will not come to your farm and shoot your horses and haul you off to jail. People may privately own stallions and they can go through the evaluations and if said stallion is favourably evaluated he will be represented in the Stallion Roster. However most people choose to allow the studbooks to own the stallions and farmers lease them on a yearly basis. Just because a certain stallion is standing in your district that year there is nothing preventing an individual from taking their mare outside the district to breed to a particular stallion. Evaluations and record keeping are the studbook's job and the studbook is run by a BOD of interested individuals, none of whom are stallion owners by the way. The Dutch government is not involved in setting policy for individual breed organizations. Vivian Creigh
Re: Stallion Strength
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Here Here Sarah, you said it beautifully, Anything but our government getting involved, who knows what we would get!! HAHAHAHAHAHA Michele Noonan Visiting in Washington right now and wanting to be home!!! miss my Fjords
Re: Stallion Strength
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In a message dated 8/4/99 9:29:40 Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: << As individuals, breeders can do a much superior job of breeding their horses than can a government controlled agency. We DON'T need the government to tell us what stallions or mares to breed. That can be done through evaluations sponsored by farms and the NFHR, etc. >> Oh Sarah, I read this after I posted my American Flag post and your attitude is JUST the type of thing I was talking about! Viva la USA! Pamela Wearing red, white and blue today, obviously
Re: Stallion Strength
This message is from: "Lynn Mohr" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> I see your point, but don't nessacarily agree. Perhaps it would be better if your notes didn't always end with a statement, of your opinion, that can be taken as an insult by many fjord owners and breeders in the US and Canada.
Re: Stallion Strength
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In a message dated 8/4/99 8:04:48 Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: << When North America has a system that even comes close to this, then maybe we'll have the right, and the knowledge, to criticize. Until then, I'd advise listening to and learning from Europe. >> No thanks . Personally, I think we've got a good font of knowledge right here in the USA. My ancestors left Europe for good reason. To be allowed to be free thinking. I LOVE Europe and appreciate the past, but there's something to be said for good old fashioned American ingenuity. You have to think out side the box lots of times to make progress. I am reading a lot about where the breed came from, what it was used for, bloodlines, etc. But don't think the Europeans have the corner on good horsemanship. Although I've only owned fjords for the last couple years, I've been involved with horses for a lifetime. I've seen good, sound breeding practices, and seen frivolous. The fjords I've seen in America, while based on European bloodstock, are beautiful, fine, strong examples of solid breeding practices which are taking place right here in the Good Old USA. Also, I like my horses tame and manageable. The only questionable fjords I've seen have been so poorly mannered and downright DANGEROUS I want nothing to do with them. The worst stallion behaviour I've ever seen. Including working on the racetrack with 2 year old tb stallions. The only one that Monty Roberts warned me to be careful with was gentle as a kitten as compared with the fjord stallion in question. My breeding program is towards solid, kind, beautiful and able to work horses, who will give many years of pleasure to myself, or whatever happy soul may buy one from me. Pamela Who is only telling my point of view, not that it's right or wrong for anybody else
Re: Stallion Strength
This message is from: "carl and sarah nagel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Well, being so new to this, I'm not sure I'm qualified at all to comment. But I do have a perspective I'd like to share for thought among the group. And it may be more an overall "way of life" comment than specific to breeding Fjords. As individuals, breeders can do a much superior job of breeding their horses than can a government controlled agency. We DON'T need the government to tell us what stallions or mares to breed. That can be done through evaluations sponsored by farms and the NFHR, etc. The sharing of experience and knowlege gained, and the lessons passed on, as well freedom to choose who to geld and who to breed will continue to produce a fine, strong breed of Fjord. The breed standards, the competition at shows, and other instruments currently in place should continue to serve us well. I would shudder to think the government would be intruding into yet another part of our lives. Sarah Nagel in hot, dry Northern Idaho with June and Sonny :-)
Re: Stallion Strength
This message is from: "Mike May, Registrar NFHR" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> At 07:50 AM 8/4/99 -0300, you wrote: When North America has a system that even comes close to this, then maybe we'll have the right, and the knowledge, to criticize. Until then, I'd advise listening to and learning from Europe. It is very very doubtful that North America will ever have a system run by the government like the European systems are. Americans & Canadians don't seem to take well to being told what to do with their property even if it is better for the breed. You still didn't explain why there isn't the strong stallions of the past if their program is working so well. Where are they with all of this selective breeding? Seems to me that the stallions of today should be much stronger if anything than those of yesteryear. Or did something get lost in the translation from what Bob had to say to what you wrote? Inquiring minds want to know Mike === Norwegian Fjord Horse Registry Mike May, Registrar Voice 716-872-4114 FAX 716-787-0497 http://www.nfhr.com mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Stallion Strength
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Arthur Rivoire) Good Day, from Carol at Beaver Dam Farm in Nova Scotia - I seem to have a hard time making my points clear. When I mentioned Chief Inspector, Bob Van Bon's remarks re the "strength" of current day stallions vs. those of years past, I was attempting to point out that a country like Holland with an established Inspection System is in the enviable position of being able to monitor the strengths and weaknesses of the breed. Those people gloating over the "weaknesses" in European stallions vs. the "strengths" of North American stallions might do well to think about this: Holland has close to 15,000 Fjordhorses, and never more than 40 or so Approved Stalliions at any one time. (Norway has a similar system.) These 40 have been chosen through a rigidly controlled inspection and elimination system. Once chosen and approved by expert horsemen, these "elite" stallions are continually monitored by means of inspecting all of their offspring, from birth onwards throughout their lives. This Offspring Inspection includes conformation and performance. -- Records are kept on the stallions, mares, and offspring, so that if anything shows up, major or very minor, physically, tempermentally, or in performance, the Studbook (governing body of the Fjord breed) is in a position to act. This kind of inspection and on-going monitoring system is common in most horse breeds throughout Europe. When North America has a system that even comes close to this, then maybe we'll have the right, and the knowledge, to criticize. Until then, I'd advise listening to and learning from Europe. Regards, Carol Rivoire Carol and Arthur Rivoire Beaver Dam Farm Fjords II R.R. 7 Pomquet Antigonish County Nova Scotia B2G 2L4 902 386 2304 http://www3.ns.sympatico.ca/beaverdf
