Re: Raising standards/Ursula
This message is from: "ruth bushnell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
.I stood out like a sore thumb, but a proud one. So, this is a reversal of
the chat going on as I was to my intent and purpose "well turned out." I
suppose we must do it as the crowd we are in does it. I will never get used
to that esp in these casual days. So, if we want to join the group we better
do as the group does or choose another group? Jean G.
===
Jean, I salute your individuality in choosing to "dress to the nines," as they
say, in a setting that was otherwise! I would be among the first to admire you
for that. Doing "as the crowd we are in" is for teens who bow to peer pressure
and we are all mostly adults here in the Fjord world.
And after all, if everyone were to strive for a state of similar precision
performance, and a complete state of an invented perfection, it would be
BO-- ING ! ("see one, you've seen them all" =)).
PLEASE, PLEASE, NOTE: I do admire and appreciate everyone who is precision
schooled and dressed...(goodness, who doesn't!?!) I'm just wishing they'd be
more tolerant of those that aren't !
I once heard it said on a List (can't recall which one) that there is often a
particular profile of a person that is drawn to rare breeds, because they want
something that no one else has, which generates and nourishes that inestimable
feeling of "smug and superior" (as author Patrick McManus terms it, and states
there is no better feeling in the world) but, after a while.. even that is not
satisfactorily fulfilling to a perfectionist who craves that unique feeling of
Smug and Superior so they begin to create a rare system within the rare
breed. (wheels within wheels, as it were, their private caste system).
Those who behave in all-knowing elitist ways are creating an iron-clad system
of elitism that is turning the Fjord Horse into a rich man's sport.. those are
not my words, but the statement of a man at the show. I would have let this
subject drop long before now had I not discovered what a tremendous following
there is for promoting ALL Fjord horses and their individual owners.
Yes, if we don't fit the current manufactured show template, we could take our
imperfect selves and drop out-- as regrettably, so many have done! But would
this benefit and promote the Fjord horse somehow? Will it be necessary to
develop a split effort in order to sanction ALL fjords!? I should hope not!
Let's keep our eye on the mark, which is promoting EVERY Fjord Horse.
Ruthie, NW MT
Re: raising standards... long
This message is from: Starfirefarm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> ruth bushnell wrote: > When I resisted the comments of Carol's in regards upgrading standards in the > west, it seems I "kicked the sacred cow" (metaphorically speaking of an > ideology of course, giggle). I have also heard the Jensen's repeatedly declare > their intentions of raising standards. To me, that meant change for additional > constraints and I would hate to see this happen. (Carol did specifically > mention Libby in her post you will recall). One of the things that I think is so magic about the Libby show is that the orgainzers keep in mind the fact that this breed does attract so many novices and includes "fun" classes and novice classes in the program, both in riding and driving, therefore including the people new to the breed and showing. Yet, there is also room for the folks who show in "open" competition to strut their stuff. The opportunity to have knowledgeable and experienced people at the show gives novices who are new to showing an opportunity to see what it can really be about, hence, giving them an opportunity to make choices about which direction they'd like to take their horses/showing skills (or whether to show at all.) The first year I drove at Libby, I was a novice to drivng and remember borrowing an apron from Jerry Frizz (who was very gracious and loaned me this beautiful wool apron..thank you again Jerry.) I didn't know, at the time, that an apron was considered a part of the accepted turnout for the style of carriage I was driving and had been "tipped off" by a more experienced person. That was my introduction to the idea of combined driving, and all of the tradition that goes with it (I'm still learning. Driving, if you are interested, is steeped in rich history and tradition.) I'll never forget being at Libby our second (or third?) year and watching Brian Jensen, Lou Thiesen and Pat Malloy driving their pairs all over the show grounds. Even while I was getting ready for my classes, the sound of those horses clip clopping in rhythm up and down the road, and through the woods, always garnerd my attention. I WANTED that! I had never seen the type of harness that Lou's pair was wearing (Hungarian style breast collar, marathon harness) and I took numerous photographs. The idea of driving multiples, for me, was captivating and invigorating. At that time, little did I know that, a couple of years later, I would be part of an agreement between Brian, Jeff and Lisa Petersen and myself to each bring and compete with a 4 in hand. Pat Malloy had plans to join us as well, but was unable due to health issues. The show organizers offered a class just for our four in hands. What a thrill that was! My point, if it hasn't come through yet, is that Libby can be a starting point for just about anyone, and should still, as Ruthie believes, cater to the novice horse person. I do think, however, that it's also important to offer classes for the folks who enjoy participating at a "higher standard" (if you will.) As a matter of fact, no one has mentioned the lovely Western outfits that some of the younger girls have worn while competing in Western Pleasure, Stock Seat, etc., fancy (but tasteful) matching hats, chaps and shirts, complimenting the color of their fjords. They usually beat the pants off of everyone, but not because of their dress (though, when seeing them first enter the ring, I'm sure the judges say to themselves, "now there's someone who knows what they're doing") it's usually because their horses very well schooled and put on a good performance, therefore, the outfits seem somehow appropriate. I DO think that raising the standards should include, first and foremost, the aspect of safety. The show committe, as well as the experienced drivers out there, should be knowledgeable of, and should keep their eyes out for, the novice drivers (ANY drivers really) who may be improperly hitched, and give them a hand to put together a safe hitch. Here is where some adherence to rules, such as ADS rules and guidelines regarding accepted equipment, can be of service to the organizers. It can also help in the case of liability, should (heaven forbid) an accident occur. > Why not make Fjord shows more user friendly and all inclusive, why not also > promote the "country" Fjord; the working class Fjord? I think they did this with the Morgans, creating a "country pleasure" driving class to offset the fancier "pleasure driving" with the high stepping park horses. With respect to the fjord driving classes, I think that the more experienced drivers need to keep in mind that there are going to be less experienced drivers in the same class, and should expect it to be a learning experience for those less experienced, there
Re: raising standards/ Ursula
This message is from: "jgayle" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Ruthie, Last year I made my trip back to Europe after five years. When I had gone the previous time I had felt "a bit over dressed" and had received some aside remarks about my tent type white rain coat. I thought the coat was fantastic and had added a six foot hand painted Italian silk scarf to complete the look!! This time I toned down a bit and wore a dark blue suede long coat, dark blue lovely two piece suit all with matching shoes etc. I even wore gloves which frightened the security police into asking me why? They said here in America we do not wear gloves. I was wearing them for cleanliness and to hide my jewelry! Plus I am old fashioned and believe in looking my best wherever I go. I stood out like a sore thumb, but a proud one. So, this is a reversal of the chat going on as I was to my intent and purpose "well turned out." I suppose we must do it as the crowd we are in does it. I will never get used to that esp in these casual days. So, if we want to join the group we better do as the group does or choose another group? Jean G. Jean Walters Gayle Aberdeen, WA Author:The Colonel's Daughter Occupied Germany 1946-49 $20 PO Box 104 Montesano, WA 98563
raising standards/ Ursula
This message is from: "ruth bushnell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Raising standards (a delayed response due the Libby Show, which goes very well I might add, a lovely show and the PNFPG has done very well in their planning and execution!) It is always interesting and amusing to me to enter into List discussion. It begins with speaking into an abstract vacuum, words falling into a virtual pond of silence, followed by widening ripples of response, almost always with comments delayed and completely derailed before the pond is still again. Reminds me of the way a football player grabs the ball and runs, is then tackled flat-out immobile, but even so the remainder of the opposing team continues to jump onto the pile... seemingly just for the fun of it =)) When I resisted the comments of Carol's in regards upgrading standards in the west, it seems I "kicked the sacred cow" (metaphorically speaking of an ideology of course, giggle). I have also heard the Jensen's repeatedly declare their intentions of raising standards. To me, that meant change for additional constraints and I would hate to see this happen. (Carol did specifically mention Libby in her post you will recall). If there is any excess energy toward improving showmanship it should be spent on ways to welcome novice Fjord owners. (as we have all just decided how very much we need promotion of the Fjord horse). Why not make Fjord shows more user friendly and all inclusive, why not also promote the "country" Fjord; the working class Fjord? I just now thought of an idea... you know how entering college freshman are often assigned a veteran student for orientation, to show them the ropes... wouldn't it be nice if this could be done at Fjord shows? Show the novice/beginner around, share a few tips, etc. I like it! =)) Preferable to waiting until after their performance for caustic criticism. Remember... everything should be directed toward promoting the Fjord horse, our top priority. I never entered the standards discussion to change anyone or diminish the system, so let's not lose sight of my original issue which was stating that we already have enough exclusivity... You claim I was "ranting" Ursula (definition, "wild talk") and so I feel justified in stating that you are pontificating. I made a valid point, and there are a good many folks who also feel as I do and we should all be able to speak our mind without being negatively labeled; which is nothing less than verbal intimidation. Sheeesh! Little did I realize when I threw in that part about how I'd like to see the lap robe thrown out the window, that I must have been speaking about a security blanket! =)) Ruthie
Re: Fjord show standards
This message is from: "Ed Sullivan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Hi, list. I certainly agree with Carol and Elaine about showing, and the other comments about respecting the judge, who practically donates his or her time for the sheer love of this sport of ours - there are lots of "fun days" and schooling shows out there for those who just can't or won't turn themselves and their horses out in traditional show attire. Curt, do we really need a committee to reinvent the wheel on show regs? What if we adopted ADS rules for driving, USDF for ridden dressage, and USAE for English/Western ring classes? I know the conformation info has to be Fjord-specific, but what is the great need for differentiating ourselves from other breeds at every turn? I have no wish to alienate long-time Fjordies, please be patient with a rookie like me. I just was thinking it would sure be easier for us folks who compete in the all-breed arena as well. By the way, my show hat cost $1.17 !! Would prefer to show in helmet, though -- does anyone out there have testimonial about a DD Rapps driving helmet cover, or another maker they recommend? Ann S. in Connecticut - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, September 06, 2003 4:29 PM To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com Subject: Re: Fjord show standards This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] It's hard to imagine that anyone who wants to compete in a sport would complain about dress and traditional turnout. Every sport has some type of "uniform" or way of dressing and I'm sure no one would turn out to play football on a team in bluejeans or whatever. I think those attentions to details show a certain amount of respect for your sport. In addition to the proper training of the horse, small things like good grooming, clean tack, correct and clean dress for the rider, says, "I have done my homework ." I think the statements about raising the standards for Fjords were some of the best suggestions I have seen on this List. Elaine Olsen
Re: raising standards
This message is from: "Hope Carlson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Dear Vivian and list, I didn't mean any slight to Prince Phillip, the "full regalia" thing is once again my unfortunate tendency to exagerate, with humor! You have to admit his carriage, coat, bowler, laprobe, harness are all a little bit better that even the best average Joe's! All that aside, the pictures I've seen of him competing are both beautiful and obviously artfull in driving. Hope N IL
Are standards absurd?
This message is from: "Karen McCarthy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Hope wrote this: ..."entrants wearing black pants and white shirts very interesting.I wonder if is just a Fjord show thing. It sounds like a nice compromise, for a breed show. No, it is a european breed show thing. - And this: ..."Until Prince Phillip stops showing his ponies in full regalia nothing is going to change in standards for open driving shows it seems to me" Don't hold your breath, kiddo! Karen McCarthyGreat Basin Fjords :: Carson City, Nevadahttp://www.picturetrail.com/weegees Compare Cable, DSL or Satellite plans: As low as $29.95.
Re: raising standards
This message is from: vivian creigh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> On Tuesday, September 9, 2003, at 04:59 PM, Hope Carlson wrote: Until Prince Phillip stops showing his ponies in full regalia nothing is going to change in standards for open driving shows it seems to me. And I say thank goodness for that. There is really nothing more beautiful than a well turned out pony put to a beautiful carriage doing a fantastic job. The Prince doesn't show his ponies in Combined driving decked out in "full regalia'" just a suit and tie with a bowler or top hat depending on the turnout . Let's start with the rules and regs in driving. Whip. hat, gloves and lap robe or apron. Really this isn't such a biggie. Altho a lap robe is rarely seen at an ADS driving show. Even real men including this years National Single horse CH. whip, Ryan Weathersford, wear aprons. I mean this guy is a Texan for gosh sakes so let's not make this an east /west issue. Carriage and harness should be sparkling clean, but really the reason for this has as much to do with safety as convention. When the time is taken to clean every nut and bolt on a carriage, breakdown a harness and clean every nook and cranny you are far more likely to be alerted to any wear and tear or missing pieces that could lead to an accident. Helmets are seen in all phases of Combined driving even at The Laurels. However usually in dressage they are velveteen hunt caps, yes with a harness and sometimes the ladies will dress them up with color coordinated scarves, which is very attractive. No sequins No second hand polyester No costumes Just lovely classic clothes that could go to church, a wedding or your daughter's graduation. Vivian
Re: raising standards
This message is from: "Hope Carlson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Dear List, I found the reference from Bailey's Fjords about the tape from Europe with entrants wearing black pants and white shirts very interesting. I wonder if is just a Fjord show thing. It sounds like a nice compromise, for a breed show. Until Prince Phillip stops showing his ponies in full regalia nothing is going to change in standards for open driving shows it seems to me. Hope N IL
Re: raising the standards
This message is from: "Karen McCarthy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Maybe we should think about re-titling this thread. A Starting place? Minimum requirements? You get my driftLook, I think things are really getting blown all out of proportion, with talk of snobbery & hoity-toitiness. This isn't some class struggle folks... By entering a Pleasure Driving Class you are not asking someone to judge you on your attire alone. You are judging the complete turnout, with most of the emphasis on the horse's way of going in harness. As long as the horse is reasonably fit, well groomed (i.e. no dingleberries dangling from a rough, manure stained haybelly) and the tack & vehicle FITS and is clean, serviceable and sound, despite it's age or make or humbleness, and the driver is up to snuff with the BASIC requirements of attire, there is no reason on earth why this turnout should not out-place and out-perform a more spiffily, but less harmonious turnout. Janet mentioned: ..."If the requirements for the class become too difficult (i.e.require specialized equipment I cannot use anywhere else), I won't be there. I'm not talking about relaxing the spit and polish, but I am referring to having to go purchase expensive specialized equipment/clothing required only for the show ring. Small things like gloves and lap robes are not a problem, but vehicles sure could be. Hmmm. I entirely agree with the first part. It's all do-able. But the latter, referring to a vehicle/carriage with trepidation, hints that you think you might need some kind of specialised high tech, antique or reproduction vehicle in order to participate at entry level showing, is not correct. You do need a vehicle that most importantly is safe, not only by design, but by fit, and suitability for the task. You are only asking for trouble by driving something totally unsuitable to the task like a 1800's Dr's Buggy, or a wire wheeled jog cart over anything but a groomed, level surface. However, a jog cart in the arena is a good training vehicle, and you can show in a vehicle like this, but with caution: be very careful of possibly collapsing spokes on tight turns with a load aboard. (But, IMPO, you can keep the steel wheeled Dr's Buggy with frozen wheel rollers on the lawn or in the museum!) Face it, if you want to drive, you have to start somewhere. If you wanted to fly, you wouldn't get out the balsa wood, nylon sheeting & glue and try to be the next human birdman. Nope. You would receive proper instruction and rating and then consider buying into a Cessna with 8 other pilots...By setting minimum show standards ensures that folks do some homework (aka. preparation), and if they have gone to all of the trouble of getting the accessories together, then perhaps, (hopefully!) they have also paid attention to the most important ingredient: the training of the horse. I know driving is a daunting task. I was once a beginning driver too, and at the start, I had an amazingly difficult time finding someone, anyone to learn from. I was a lifelong rider, however, I definitely was intimidated by all of the harness & vehicle combinations. I think driving is really a discipline that works best if one can find a mentor, or group/club to work with. It's really pretty difficult for someone to "wing" it and come out with horse and driver completely un-scathed. I surely do not intend to turn anyone off & away from showing; but remember to ask questions; many, many questions! That's why this List is here. Right?! Good Luck, KMac PS: Yes, by all means wear your helmet instead of a hat if you want. At a recognised ADS event you would not be penalised; same should apply for an un-recognised show, but you may need to inform/educate them before the class. Some people do decorate them with covers, and there are even some helmet covers made in England, that make your helmet look like a sort of (gigantic) English tweed hat. Karen McCarthyGreat Basin Fjords :: Carson City, Nevadahttp://www.picturetrail.com/weegees Try MSN Messenger 6.0 with integrated webcam functionality!
Re: Carol raising standards
This message is from: "vz/bossmare" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> I can't resist a reply here to "any way they want". I'm an "Easterner" but most of our "rules" about horses come from the British who among other places settled in parts of Canada. The problem with "any way they want" is apparent in the way people take that to mean "any-thing". Thongs, pierced whatevers, skimpy halter tops, tatooed legsand that's just the women! Look for guys in tee shirts with vulgar statements, pants with the crotch around the knees, shoes with no laces, etc. Or haven't these latest fashions appeared "out west". People who dress this way defend their right to do so but when can we defend our right to reject this visual pollution. As far as detracting from "the horse", people who defend their right to be slobs don't know the difference. It's the same person who will pay for a professional photo of their horse for an ad and not clean up the horse or replace the tattered halter. It's actually a form of reverse snobbery in my opinion in that they celebrate their individualism but wind up being more of a conformist to their group. Years ago my daughter, the liberal, now living "out west" in Colorado deplored the fact that people were judged by their appearance. As her mother I asked her if she saw a bum panhandling on the street corner, or a businessman reading his paper across the street, to whom would she go to ask directions? As the worm turns she now has a 12 year old son who cannot get his ear pierced or his body tatooed because right or wrong, he will be judged. Appearances do matter in the long run. An inappropriate appearance no matter the intention, or the integrity of the individual usually results in that person being discounted by others as not up to par, or worse, worthy of consideration whether applying for a job or showing a horse before judges. I can't wait to see Madonna take up driving, Fjord or otherwise. On the other hand I once saw photos "out west" of a nude rodeo. Apart from seeming to be a very uncomfortable situation I imagine they thought they were celebrating their individualism. Lois in NJ where what she wears around the farm mucking stalls is classier than what she sees on employees at the bank. - Original Message - From: "ruth bushnell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Monday, September 08, 2003 9:37 PM Subject: Re: Carol raising standards > This message is from: "ruth bushnell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > Oh come one, Ruthie, I go to the horse shows here in Fairbanks, and see > > the western riders with their fancy clothes, "proper chaps" shirts in the > > current "In" style and colors, horses with ears shaved, faces oiled, > hooves > > painted, mane pulled and cut and you want to tell me WESTERN riders don't > > follow a dress style? I look in Western Horseman Magazine and see the > > "Latest" fashions for western riders. I see "how to" article on how to > > prepare your horse for the western riding clases. Isn't that sort of > > "hoity toity" also? Jean in Fairbanks, > = > SURE JEAN, but what's your point? (hee hee hee) > > Seriously, so there are two extremes fine but why should one be > allowed to dictate to the other? You ask me how I think a person should > dress when they show? How about, "any way they want!" as long as it does not > detract from the horse. > > Ruthie
raising the standards
This message is from: Janet McNally <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> What ever happens to Fjord show standards, I have one request. don't forget the entry level owner who would like to show in some more 'relaxed' classes. I'm sure I'm not the only person who does not want to make a carreer out of showing, but would like to get our Fjords to the occaisional Fjord show to see how they compare to the rest of the Fjord world or just for fun. If the requirements for the class become too difficult (i.e.require specialized equipment I cannot use anywhere else), I won't be there. I'm not talking about relaxing the spit and polish, but I am referring to having to go purchase expensive specialized equipment/clothing required only for the show ring. Small things like gloves and lap robes are not a problem, but vehicles sure could be. I think having classes that appeal to and encourage newcomers are very important to the promotion of any breed. If there are no classes that make it easy to begin showing Fjords, for this large segment of horse owners, then you will loose potential buyers. Janet
Re: Carol raising standards
This message is from: "ruth bushnell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Oh come one, Ruthie, I go to the horse shows here in Fairbanks, and see > the western riders with their fancy clothes, "proper chaps" shirts in the > current "In" style and colors, horses with ears shaved, faces oiled, hooves > painted, mane pulled and cut and you want to tell me WESTERN riders don't > follow a dress style? I look in Western Horseman Magazine and see the > "Latest" fashions for western riders. I see "how to" article on how to > prepare your horse for the western riding clases. Isn't that sort of > "hoity toity" also? Jean in Fairbanks, = SURE JEAN, but what's your point? (hee hee hee) Seriously, so there are two extremes fine but why should one be allowed to dictate to the other? You ask me how I think a person should dress when they show? How about, "any way they want!" as long as it does not detract from the horse. Ruthie
Re: Carol raising standards
This message is from: Jean Ernest <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Oh come one, Ruthie, I go to the horse shows here in Fairbanks, and see the western riders with their fancy clothes, "proper chaps" shirts in the current "In" style and colors, horses with ears shaved, faces oiled, hooves painted, mane pulled and cut and you want to tell me WESTERN riders don't follow a dress style? I look in Western Horseman Magazine and see the "Latest" fashions for western riders. I see "how to" article on how to prepare your horse for the western riding clases. Isn't that sort of "hoity toity" also? So how do you want to dress when you show? Where is the happy medium? Jean in Fairbanks, ALaska, finally some sun and 60 degree. Fall is here. >If we in the west conform to a dictatorship of "hoity-toity" ring standards in >order to attract eastern entrants, we are then going to lose some western >entrants, and that's a fact! Jean Ernest Fairbanks, Alaska mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Carol raising standards
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Ruthie, I did not write you offline, have not yet had a chance! :) However, I must say it is highly bothersome to see so much emphasis put on clothing versus the horse. I mean, has anyone seen some of the mini shows? Women driving in evening gowns, sequins, high heels, etc? The mini is barely noticeable. Or, some of the Western shows where the handler is so brightly dressed, sparkles so much one's eyes are drawn to the handler versus horse? I remember seeing a tape of a Fjord evaluation overseas a few years back, either Norway or Denmark, although cannot for the life of me remember the details. However, all the handlers wore black pants and white shirts. This was so impressive! Emphasis was placed on the Fjord, where it belonged. This does not indicate I believe harness, carts, clothes, etc., should be dirty, torn, or of poor quality. However, too much emphasis on clothing itself does detract from the Fjord, this is very obvious in other breed shows. Tradition is one thing, but lately, tradition seems to be getting pretty broad in definition in the show ring. Someone else asked a great question about drivers wearing helmets versus the cute little hats. What is the take on this in regard to the show ring? Lynda > How I wish that all of you who wrote to me off-list would write ON-list and > give this issue some weighty public balance. Your supportive posts are an > overriding indication that there is a groundswell for freedom in the ring > and > a revolution against English anarchy in show trappings.
Re: Carol raising standards
This message is from: "ruth bushnell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> It's very gratifying to see the many, many comments on appropriate performance attire and trappings; pros and cons.. some good points made. How I wish that all of you who wrote to me off-list would write ON-list and give this issue some weighty public balance. Your supportive posts are an overriding indication that there is a groundswell for freedom in the ring and a revolution against English anarchy in show trappings. Before I go on, let me say that I speak for myself alone and in no way do I want to be a reproach to Libby or the regional promotional club, just because of my proximity which is irrelevant. In fact, they could be writing a disclaimer about now =))) What do I want? equal opportunity for all Fjord lovers everywhere! political correctness for the expression of western culture! (if you will =)) Cynthia, we (I do speak for many) do not want cheap Good Will rags so we can pretend we're somebody we're not. If you gave them to us, we wouldn't wear them! Why? Because we feel ridiculous in English second-hand polyester costumry! Some folks don't mind, some do. This all started because I resent the current pressure to mandate specifics for western Fjord lovers... cut the goat hairs, skin the ears, buff the toes... *POP* no, wait, that was the horse! =))) Well, you know what I mean. If we in the west conform to a dictatorship of "hoity-toity" ring standards in order to attract eastern entrants, we are then going to lose some western entrants, and that's a fact! If ever there is a year when eastern interests don't come in... what will be left of our show here without solid regional participation? I know of a few case histories where just such a thing has happened. Mind you, we love to see the proper outfits perform.. We're not asking you to change, so please don't ask us to. Why can't we just all do our own thing...? after all, no one is asking to do anything unsafe, or unclean, and no one wants to be sloppy! Just judge the HORSE! How best might we promote the Fjord Horse? (our common interest) By encouraging Fjord newbies with an open and uncritical acceptance of their presentation. Some of which may not yet have the wherewithal or experience to put on airs; young folks, families. Multiple restrictions, requirements, and blatant criticisms, is DISCOURAGING, NOT PROMOTIONAL, to people entering the Fjord world, as folks are just naturally not attracted to snobbery. Ruthie, nw mt
Re: Carol raising standards
This message is from: Cynthia Madden <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Teresa K., I really appreciated your even handed comments about standards. Yes, there is a time to dress up and a time to be casual and that is in showing your horse and in the everyday work/non-work world. One of the things I love about driving is that when driving around home, I can wear tennis shoes and shorts. If you want to exhibit your fjord in the all-breed world, you conform because you want to compete to your best advantage. How much do people showing in a western pleasure class spend on their outfits? Well, when I shop for carriage driving show clothes, let's see - hat bought at Kohl's, $12; blouse bought on sale at Penney's, $7; apron, made by friend; $40(apron covers the Docker's I like to wear); shoes bought at Shopko, $12. Gosh, that's a lot of money! If you read the Carriage Driving list, you will find lots of hints of where to buy clothes for a driving show at Salvation Army stores, etc. I love the casual atmosphere I've experienced at Blue Earth and Libby and I do not see any slobs there! I think those who protest dressing up a bit (an Ruth is not alone!), protest just bit too much. I also think these shows are a great and non-threatening place to learn and practice how to show in the open shows - IF you so desire. If you don't want to, that fine too! My serious objections to A. Fraser's showing at High Prairie is that he chose to show with the big girls and oys and did a very poor job of it. He could have stayed in Montana and gone to a schooling show or CDE and no one would have cared and he would not have wasted the owner's money and embarrassed the Fjord world! (I don't mean to introduce this topic again, but my original comments seemed to start all this recent discussion and I remain unapologetic about them). I also would like to point out that my comments were not about "dressing up standards," but about training and ethical standards. = Cynthia Madden Las Cruces, NM [EMAIL PROTECTED] (messages received on Saturday or Sunday can not be responded to until Monday)
Re: Fjord show standards
This message is from: "Curtis Pierce" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Taffy Mercer wrote: > Is there an actual Fjord standards rule book for shows? I know there are > for minis, Arabs, Morgans, etc. and they spell out what tack is > acceptable, etc. The NFHR adopted breed standards are listed at: http://www.nfhr.com/BREEDSTA.html. There is also the "NFHR Breed Standard & Judges Rule Book" distributed by the NFHR a few years ago. Mike May would know if there are any copies of this book available. In this book there are some class specifications listed. The current Fjord shows may have classes that come close to some of these specifications, but none of them are using them exactly as written. In my opinion, the specifications in the NFHR book need updating by a committee. If you are interested in the specifications being used by some of the east coast Fjords shows, I have a word document that I can send you. Just email me at [EMAIL PROTECTED] Take care! Curt Pierce Bristow, VA PS. We are finally having a few days relief from the hot and humid weather. Our Fjords and I are looking forward to seeing everyone at the Ohio Evaluation and then the Ontario Fjord show in a few weeks.
Re: Raising Standards - longwinded
This message is from: GAIL RUSSELL <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Do you mean the nose rings have not gotten there yet? :) I >hope it isn't a general trend, and I don't think so. -- Frankly, I really >hate to go into the bank on "Casual Friday". Some of those ladies in blue >jeans look pretty silly, uncomfortable, and kind of inappropriate . . . >"for a bank" I mean.
Re: Raising Standards - longwinded
This message is from: "Arthur Rivoire" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Hi Everybody from Carol Rivoire at Beaver Dam Farm in Nova Scotia - I don't have the whole quote, but someone responding to my comments said - "It doesn't happen overnight". -- My response to that is that it had better happen over night . . . That is, "the night before" your first ADS driving show. If you want to compete at ADS Pleasure or Combined Driving Events, you MUST, at the very least, wear a hat, gloves, and driving apron. And you must carry a whip. -- If you wish to wear farm boots and a plaid shirt along with your hat, gloves and apron, that's up to you, but you won't do well, and for most people, showing off their horse and turnout is why they go to a show. The challenge and fun of competition, plus the pride in your horse, is what it's all about. It's a Horse Show, for heaven's sake. -- The American Driving Society is not an "English/East Coast" organization. It's the "AMERICAN Driving Society" and it's run by and for all North American drivers - Canadians and Americans! I'm sorry -- Call me old fashioned, but I find it disrespectful of the horses, the show, and the spectators to dress inappropriately. And, I think a lot of people might be less interested in driving shows if the old standards were abandoned or watered down. But, hey! Is anybody anywhere else other than in the Fjord world objecting to dress standards in driving? If so, I haven't heard about it. -- In fact, let's face it, putting together a great outfit (particularly the hat) is one of the things that attracts a lot of women to driving. APPROPRIATE ATTIRE - Someone brought up that point as well, and it was a good point. -- In some pleasure driving shows (in Europe anyway), they have what they call "Concours d'Elegance" classes. These classes are not necessarily about ELEGANCE. They are about appropriatness. I've seen these classes in England and in Holland. For instance, in England at Pleasure Driving Shows, there will be various "commercial" entries; such as, brewery hitches. And in these entries, everything must be appropriate to the turnout. The driver wouldn't wear a top hat or a monogrammed apron, but he MUST conform to whatever dress is appropriate for the driver of a brewery hitch. -- Same thing for other commercial turnouts; such as a - Greengrowcer or Milk Wagon. In Holland, I've seen wonderful turnouts in this "Concours d'Elegance" class. One I particularly remember was a farmer driving a gorgeous antique farm wagon all beautifully restored. He was up on the seat in his farmer's overalls (period overalls, mind you), and he had the necessary whip, which in this case was a stick with a frond of leaves at the tip -- absolutely appropriate! It's silly to protest that - "Nobody's going to get me into a top hat" - Silly, because there's no need to wear one, unless you deliberately choose to drive a formal vehicle that calls for a top hat. And, in my opinion, those vehicles are not appropriate to a Fjordhorse. I think farm vehicles can continue to be a welcome feature at Fjord shows. But, I also think that these turnouts should be required to be as spiffy and neat, shiny, clean, and polished as would be seen at any well-run show. And, of course, the horses should be equally spiffy, neat, and clean. The English and Dutch driving shows I've mentioned welcome "farm" or "commerical" turnouts. However, the farm turnouts don't come to the show right out of the potato field. The farm machinery shown is restored and painted, and the farm wagons are beautifully decorated. They are, in fact, "Show Vehicles", and every little detail of the whole turnout which includes the vehicle, the horses, and the driver are turned out to show ring standards. As far as Western heritage in driving, it's still a case of "Appropriatness". A restored stage coach turnout will have the driver in clothes appropriate to his vehicle. There won't be a driving apron. The hat will be western. It will all be appropriate! -- These turnouts are wonderful at Pleasure Shows, and I think there should be more of them. They're a huge amount of work, but very beautiful and very popular with spectators. . In my last post, I mentioned how things used to be at the early Woodstock Shows. -- Well, just last night I looked at the website of the Woodstock Show photographer, and I was mightily impressed at how things have definitely improved. The site is - www.photosbybarb.com Most (not all) of the competitors were very well turned out, and I saw some nice looking Fjords too. Up here in Nova Scotia, and no longer competing, I don't know if casualness is a trend in the driving world, or
Re: Fjord show standards
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] It's hard to imagine that anyone who wants to compete in a sport would complain about dress and traditional turnout. Every sport has some type of "uniform" or way of dressing and I'm sure no one would turn out to play football on a team in bluejeans or whatever. I think those attentions to details show a certain amount of respect for your sport. In addition to the proper training of the horse, small things like good grooming, clean tack, correct and clean dress for the rider, says, "I have done my homework ." I think the statements about raising the standards for Fjords were some of the best suggestions I have seen on this List. Elaine Olsen
Fjord show standards
This message is from: "The Mercers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Is there an actual Fjord standards rule book for shows? I know there are for minis, Arabs, Morgans, etc. and they spell out what tack is acceptable, etc. I am considering adding Fjord classes to the Springtime Open Show next May and need specifics for judging the Fjords. Taffy Mercer
Re: Carol raising standards
This message is from: "Teressa Kandianis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> As a non shower of horses (yet), and looking at the twists and turns in this thread, it seems that people are speaking on parallel albeit separate tracks. The concerns that have been voiced are those of the widespread opinions among some top level N. American trainers and drivers and riders that fjords aren't really showhorses. So, we hear from some parties that using the same standards for showing that are used among these upper level shows and are apparently standard with some breeds and having horses that are trained, groomed and conditioned on these same levels, and having riders or drivers who are also turned out and skilled will help, over time, to change those attitudes in America. Not needed in Norway where the Norwegian Fjord Horse is a national treasure whose qualities are universally admired. However, US breeders aren't selling horses in Norway, they are selling them in N. America. So, I believe the focus of Carol and the Jensen's comments were at the thread's problem statement regarding the fjordhorse reputation among N. America's training and top level competing communities and surely had nothing to do with their Canadian locations. That shouldn't be regarded as an intended or even unintended slight of those who consider those traditional requirements to be over the top. Things do change over time at those higher levels - but it takes quite a while. Remember how long it took for the mandatory figures to be removed from top level ice skating competitions? And what Dick Button has had to say about those changes? I'm guessing that aspects of the higher driving standards being discussed have been already modified or eliminated over the centuries. Top level sport is political but you change it gradually and only by being in the top levels and gaining respect there. By implementing the standards at our breed shows, we are more likely to see the top level representatives of our breed being able to transition seamlessly to becoming top level competitors at the all breed shows...thus gaining the respect of trainers, improving reputation and increasing value. But this doesn't happen overnight. In fact, it appears that even though there is still much breed prejudice out there, there are some hardworking professional breeders who are breeding well, training well and winning well. And they are changing attitudes a little bit at a time. The desire of others to compete for fun without such restrictive requirements is a different issue but also important not to lose sight of. As the Jensen's have also said, get out there and work with your horses at any level. I just wish I were in either category right now. Regards from western Washington where we're told to expect our first rain in months this weekend. My fjords will be black and joyful from having mud to roll in. Teressa K.
Re: Carol raising standards
This message is from: Kathleen Spiegel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> ruth bushnell wrote: > This message is from: "ruth bushnell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Carol, > > Now you've gone and done it! =)) Just when I complimented your Fjord tutoring > tendencies too. > > Your current letter regards "raising the standards" rather nettled me... I I too, like the more "relaxed" (do not read lower) western standards. We enter a show tomorrow ( pleasure driving and a cones class at the Eastern Idaho State FAir) to have fun and to show off what we think are fine horses and vehicles. We also do it to get people interested in pleasure driving with their horses, show that there is an interest and try to expand the offerings and classes. Some of us also do it to engender interest in our own particular horses-(read potential customers for our colts). Most of all it is a wonderful opportunity to meet people with similar interests. I wholeheartedly agree that presentation and preparation are important - clean and well conditioned vehicles and horses and tack. Dress as if you are proud of your entry but I feel it should be appropriate to your rig and horse. I do drive the original vehicles as were driven in the West ( original 100 year old buggy and springwagon), some of us drive newer roadcarts and marathon rigs too. We all find a lot of the "English" accoutrements too expensive and certainly not in keeping with the rigs but we welcome the entries from Jackson Hole who are dressed to the hilt and look mighty sharp. A driving apron and tophat look really out of place on my buggy though and the modern steel vehicles are not nearly as graceful as the old BUT in an english driving class they are appropriate. So, why not compromise and encourage and allow both types of shows or classes and enter the kind of show in which you feel the most comfortable. Just a thought as I leave work to go touch up the paint nicks on the spokes of the buggy, grease the leathers in the hubs - not built with bearings, clean the seats with armourall, polish the harness and clean the green spots off the blonde horse for the State Fair tomorrow. ( and find my brown driving gloves ( isotoners that double for winter car driving gloves), straw sun hat that I do use elsewhere, and casual jacket, slacks and a turtle neck. Kathy in Southern Idaho
Re: Carol raising standards
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] I agree. The apron serves no safety function and just plain looks stupid. The meeting of two personalities is like the contact of two chemical substances: if there is any reaction, both are transformed. b Carl Jung
Carol raising standards
This message is from: "ruth bushnell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Carol, Now you've gone and done it! =)) Just when I complimented your Fjord tutoring tendencies too. Your current letter regards "raising the standards" rather nettled me... I really should retire from the List as I find it somewhat provocative, but then you'd probably all talk about me =)). Now, I can understand why you Canadians, you and Jensens, are passionately advocating English standards, and that's all fine and dandy... go for it! But why this bullish thrust to conform westerners as well? To bring them UP to your level of superiority? In every other aspect of life there is evolving standards! Doctors now wear casual and comfortable attire, Ministers opt for more natural trappings, and the list goes on! There's nothing sacred or indelible about an outdated dress standard for heaven's sakes and I can think of no reason on earth why we should cling to archaic English tradition. Our driving vehicles are not authentic are they? I spoke with someone this summer, who had talked to someone (h, sounds like hearsay) ... who had gone to Norway, and they were dismayed to see that Fjords were more naturally exhibited than here. No extreme clipping, shampooing, or artificial prepping, but the focus was on the horse itself. So when you say, "that's the way it's done in the REAL horse world," I'm presuming there are horse planets yet undiscovered in your reckoning. I say, let's quit worrying about what the "horse world" thinks or says about us and quit following them down the garden path.. (case in point the current outrage over losing face with horse world peers) Let's focus on the wonderful and unique Fjord that really needs no enhancement or pseudo elevation. I may never live to see the standard changed but I'm betting that someone, somewhere, wakes up to the fact that it's high time we changed (not lowered, but changed) our standards, and threw that damnedable hot apron out the window! A few phony foreign props do not a good Fjord make. Mind you Carol, I'm not taking BACK one good word I said about you. (hee hee) Ruthie, a no frills westerner
Re Advocacy & Raising the Standards
This message is from: "Arthur Rivoire" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Hello Everybody from Carol Rivoire at Beaver Dam Farm in Nova Scotia -- I was DELIGHTED to read Brian Jensen's post re "Raising the Standards" - That's something I've been advocating for a lot of years. I'd like to see the standards raised in several of areas surrounding the Fjord breed, and breed shows are an excellent place to begin. Unfortunately, in the past there's been a lot of resistance to requiring Fjord people to meet AHSA or ADS standards at shows. For instance, about twenty years ago, competitors at the early Vermont Woodstock Show had a fit when they were told they could NO LONGER ride their dressage tests - bareback - in an Australian saddle - in bibtop overalls and work boots. --- "Why not?", they asked. "We've done it that way in the past, and it's the way we want to do things. --- It's who we are." Competitors at Libby complained about wearing driving aprons, gloves, and carrying a whip. There's been a lot of disscusion, argument, and hard feelings about these issues. All a big waste of time in my opinion, and also detrimental to the breed's reputation. -- In my opinion, if in fact, the breed does suffer low estime in the show world, then it could be attributed to the "free spirits" who insisted on jeans, workboots, and plaid shirts in the driving classes. -- These "show duds" no doubt complemented the dirty harness, scratched muddy cart, and the dull brass the poor Fjordhorse was forced to carry around in public. Not to mention the horse himself who was probably unkempt, unclipped, and untrained. Looked at in this light, it sure as hell isn't the Fjordhorse that's lacking quality and class --- It's the people who insist on showing this way. --- However, during all these years, there have been Fjord people who have done it right --- done it "by the book". Afterall, folks --- There is a tradition in showing horses. Why not show our horses in the best light - Clean, trimmed, mannerly, and trained. Fjords shown this way can compete with the best of them. Just recently customers of ours competing at the Woodstock Show with immaculate, well-trained, well-equiped horses were teased for being "so clean". Hey folks! That's the way it's done in the real horse world. Yes, I'm well aware that there's lots going on in the big world of horses. Lots of things we don't want to emulate. However as much as that's true, there are things we should copy in order to uphold the traditions of good horsemanship, AND to do justice to our beautiful breed. THINGS OTHER THAN HORSE SHOWS I'D LIKE TO SEE UPGRADED --- * More truly experienced horsemen/women on the Board of Directors - People who understand how a breed organization should be run in order to Protect, Promote & Improve the breed * Some sort of program or organization that would recognize breeders who do things right - Breeders who do it "By the Book". -- These people need to be recognized for running a quality operation. They need to be distinguished from those who don't. -- There are breeders who run a class act, and those who don't -- And this has very little to do with money --- There are breeders who keep good records, and those who don't There are breeders who train their young stock, and those who don't There are breeders who worm six times a year, and those who don't --- Breeders who give all necessary vaccinations, and those who don't --- In my opinion, THOSE WHO DO SHOULD BE RECOGNIZED - * Breed promotion by the NFHR - A program that highlights performance Fjords. All of us who are selling Fjords (and that includes most everybody at one time or another) deserve much more than we're getting from our Registry. We need BREED PROMOTION in order to PROTECT and IMPROVE the breed. -- What I'm saying is that if the NFHR doesn't come in soon with a significant breed promotion program, there are going to be a lot of quality breeders who will get tired of doing it all themselves. Afterall, as I remember it, The Mandate of the NFHR is to Promote and Protect & Improve the breed. -- Let's all remind them (the NFHR) that the time is now to Promote & Protect, because from all we hear, the Fjord breed is in dire need of promotion == Promotion of it's abilities and qualities, and Protection from an undeserved bad press. ~ If I sat here long enough, I'm sure I could come up with a longer list of ways to Raise our Standards. -- However, really tightening up the breed shows is an excellent start. Kind Regards, Carol Rivoire Subject: Advocacy & Raising The Standard > > This message is from: "Ursula & Brian Jensen" &l
RE: Breed Standards
This message is from: "Sanders" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Breed standards are there for a good reason and should be adhered to if you love the breed. Years ago I spent hundreds of dollars on a rare Cavalier King Charles Spaniel. I paid hundreds extra to acquire a "breed quality" female. I worked with an experienced breeder (not the one the puppy came from) to learn all I could about this wonderful and unique dog. I fell in love with the breed and the dog. Jennie and I both showed her in Cavalier shows and 4-H. The dog was beautiful, (her name is Kiss Kiss but I didn't really want to say it outloud-no laughing out loud) and conformational she was a perfect Cavalier! Unfortunately, one fault the breed can have is shyness and my Kissy had it bad. I still thought about breeding her and my 'mentor' never said a word against it. Finally a breeder I highly respected called me up and asked me to please not breed Kissy because her shyness would be passed along. I was horrified at the thought and heartily agreed! She was spayed shortly after and I was encouraged to return her for another dog. (AS IF!) The morale of the story is: I loved the breed more than I loved my future puppy money and I chose not to pass along something that would reflect poorly upon the breed. This didn't mean I loved my dog any less because she wasn't perfect, contrary - I loved her more because she was still mine! (Ask Sarah and Michelle she is WELL loved and spoiled rotten!) Part of the beauty of a fjord is their gorgeous coats and overall coloring. I'd hate to see "American Spotted Dun" added to the list of colors in the future. Thanks for letting me spout off, I tend to talk too much. Teresa Sanders Sandpoint Idaho
Standards
This message is from: "Ursula Jensen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> However, as breeders we need to breed true to type (stick to the standard as Linda said). We don't want to end up breeding for dressage ponies that couldn't scramble up the side of a cliff in Norway if their life depended on it. To quote the FHI "The Fjordhorse must be true to type. Its conformation must be functional and its use versatile. It must have a good temperament and be hardy and sound." Lori ----- "AMEN"...not American Standards but Breed Standards.. Ursula & Brian Jensen Trinity Fjords Box 1032 Lumby BC Canada V0E-2G0 http://okjunc.junction.net/~ujensen/ [EMAIL PROTECTED] (250) 547-6303
Norwegian Standards
This message is from: "Catherine Lassesen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> I have made 10 copies of the standard from Norway that I have been putting on the list. Now id the time to remind me who to send them to. (Brian J. yours in in the mail.) Even if you emailed me a while back could you email me again. If you saw my office you would understand, this is the fastest way for me to get the papers to you! Julia & Mike, thanks for the kind words. You are welcome! Hope all are enjoying the late spring. Catherine Lassesen aka Fjords on Ebay http://www.ebay.com Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.thehorsegarden.com - Richard Shrake Resistance Free tm Clinic - - July 23, 24, 25, 1999 at the Garden Arena - Hestehaven - The Horse Garden
Breed standards from Norway, etc.
This message is from: Joel a harman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Thanks Katherine. The turpentine contained in any pine species needles has been known to cause cattle to abort. Oak leaves can create tannic acid in water troughs. Don't seem to be a problem when green. Seems like the cattle had to eat lots of needles for it to be a problem. I'm assuming your horses get enough to eat so they don't make meals out of the aforementioned. Thanks, Lisa. Don't think it will happen by then. Thanks, JoAnn. Don't tell me, you're a ESL instructor in Japan. Teach them well. Awhile back Steve offered good advice. Write your nasty reply and re-read it in the morning, before you send it. Treat people as you would like to be treated. Karma is a powerful thing. Pay now or pay later. People remember you for the last note you posted. Happy Trails Joel Harman By the way I'm still looking for a mare unrelated to Grabb or Rudaren. ___ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
Fw: Part 2 Standards from Norway
This message is from: "Catherine Lassesen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Part 2 Standards from Norway >Hello, Part Two > >2 Horse Breeding in Norway > >The aim of breeding is to reach for a genetic improvement of the various >characteristics within a breed, and the overall objective of the breed. > >An important element is to consider the differences within a breed as well >as its limitations which can be of both external and internal character. > >International as well a national factors play their part as well as >biotechnology and a demand for quality. The aims within the industry itself >will also be influenced by market economy, rules and regulations. > >The species itself will also have its own biological limits such as >fertility which limits the ultimate effectiveness of a Breeding plan. > >It will be necessary therefore to consider the results of planned breeding >and what side effects can be expected in relation to existing limits. > >2.1 The equine population of Norway > >The equine population today is about 45,000. Each year about 4,000 mares are >covered. (NOTE: THIS IS ALL EQUINE) > >The Dolehorse (a drafthorse, a native breed) and the closely related >cold-blooded trotter amounts to 40% of the population, Standardbred trotters >25%, the Fjord Horse (native breed) 15% and Riding Horses and ponies 10%. > >Tabell 1 Number of horses (NOTE: Table one) >(Norsk Hestesenter 1.12.90) (NOTE: Norwegian Horse Center / date) > >Breeds & Associations/# of Reg. Horses / % > >Trotters / 18500 / 52% >Arabs/ 400/1.1% >Thoroughbreds/ 600/1.7% >Dolehest/ 2000/5.6% >Ponies / 1500/4.2% >Nordlandspony / 1300/3.7% >Fjordhorse / 6000/ 16.9% >Islandic Horse / 3000/8.4% >Norwegian Horse Society / 2300/6.5% > >Today the use of the horse in agriculture is reduced to a minimum only about >7% of farms using the horse at all and even this in a minor way. There is a >very slight increase in the use of the horse in forestry. > >Trotting and totalisor betting is confined to 10 tracks for trotting and one >racecourse. > >The totalisor has been in existence since 1928 and it has been a great >incentive to breeders. Trotting is the main equine sport. About 3600 >trotters and 400 thoroughbreds are raced annually. > >Interest in Riding is on the increase encompassing dressage, showjumping, >eventing and long-distance riding. Driving as a sport has breed established >more recently. > >The pony breeds cover the need for a smaller horse for children. (This also >included the Nordlandshest, also a native breed) > >End of this section. Please note... that when I put "NOTE" it mean this is >my own writing. It is not written on the papers I am typing from. >Stay tune for 2.2 Breeding Stock ;o) > >
Re: Norwegian Standards / Flyer / Chat/ Backyard Breeder
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In a message dated 2/27/99 11:17:58 Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: << I wanted to say that ( here) in my heavy horse infested town of Norco, Ca. the term is met with a different twist. We have every breed represented here, and many of the" Big Boys "of the Quarter Horse, Paint, Arabian, Morgan, Warmblood, Fresian, ect. are standing at Stud, and people from all over the country ship their mares here , and also keep a swarm of vets very busy during AI, Breeding and Foaling season. Backyard Breeder's take on a new meaning, when you continue to read about your friends down the street, leading the nation in points, and winning overseas compititions with their respective breeds. >> That's right. I have a dear friend who lives in Norco, who I think you have probably seen. I know she's seen you and your fjords . She's got the Andalusian stallion, Bando. She's NOT made out of money, has a small facility, and puts her money into her horses, not her wardrobe. A wonderful woman with a sense of humour. She is indeed a backyard breeder who has a stallion that knocks out some of the nicest Andys in the country!! Backyard breeding doesn't have to be a dirty word, if it's done correctly! BTW if you see her, tell her I said Hi! Pamela
Re: Norwegian Standards / Flyer / Chat/ Backyard Breeder
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In a message dated 99-02-27 05:54:44 EST, you write: << This message is from: "Catherine Lassesen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> In November, I wrote that I have a copy of the Norwegian Standards in English. It is still available at the price of copying it & mailing it. UNLESS you all want me to put it on the list. Then Y'all owe me a drink! ;o) -- >> O-K Catherine, if you can handle Tequila shooters, we'll line um up.Pleaseprint that copy of the Norwegian Standards here, and we will be eternally grateful.(.and drunk.) Catch up with you in Turlock ! Joel, just wanted to let you know how much I have been enjoying your posts lately, and wondered if you would grace our " Chatty Group " TOOT TOOT sometime, for a lesson and questions about your logging with Fjordsyou know where to find us ! Regarding the term " Backyard Breeders " I wanted to say that ( here) in my heavy horse infested town of Norco, Ca. the term is met with a different twist. We have every breed represented here, and many of the" Big Boys "of the Quarter Horse, Paint, Arabian, Morgan, Warmblood, Fresian, ect. are standing at Stud, and people from all over the country ship their mares here , and also keep a swarm of vets very busy during AI, Breeding and Foaling season. Backyard Breeder's take on a new meaning, when you continue to read about your friends down the street, leading the nation in points, and winning overseas compititions with their respective breeds. BTW, my own Stallion " Fair Acres Nels " X Anvils Steinfin stands not in my backyard, but Margaret and Barry Strakin's. Does that count? We have been getting used to the Bird-In-Hand Flyer we found, and bought privatly, now for a week or so. It is a wonderful vehicle, and drives well both single and pairs. Headed up to the hills just 2 days ago, and it pulled up some rather steep inclines, it was super. Comming down, we had our brake, to help keep the weight of the carraige off the britchin, and again no problems. On the flat, it is the most comfortable vehicle Ive been in, and couldnt be more pleased. We have decided to return the pole we found, as the singletrees are far too wide, to do pairs with in narrow spots, and have found a new Bird-In-Hand Pole, from a man up North, still in its wrap, who cant use it. Bernadine, Im still keeping my feelers out for you, found one for sale, but alas, when I called, it was Warmblood sz. Keep the faith, we will find you one ! A reminder to all, to join PAV Aussie, ( Jackie from Down Under ) and I for Fjord Chat, Sun. night at 9:00 Eastern time, at PetsandVets on the Net. Its in Horse room # 1. Every week, new " faces " and its alot of fun to talk live with people who we read from every day here ! Hope to see you there..Bill in Mn. sorry you got bummped out last week, try again, O-K? Keep getting dumped out myself. : ( Bye all from Sunny Norco, 78 today, but warming up by Sun. ( DUCKING ) http://www.petsandvets.com/";>PETS AND VETS http://volano1.suresite.com/petsvets/vcclient/horsechat.html";>HORSE CHAT ROOM Lisa Pedersen PAV FJORDS
Re: Norwegian Standards
This message is from: "Jean Gayle" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> I would love to see it on the list, Catherine and will serve you a double if you ever come to Aberdeen. Pretty safe offer but I do mean it. Would be quite grateful. Jean Gayle -Original Message- November, I wrote that I have a copy of the Norwegian Standards in >English. It is still available at the price of copying it & mailing it. >UNLESS you all want me to put it on the list. Then Y'all owe me a drink! ;o) > > >
Norwegian Standards
This message is from: "Catherine Lassesen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> In November, I wrote that I have a copy of the Norwegian Standards in English. It is still available at the price of copying it & mailing it. UNLESS you all want me to put it on the list. Then Y'all owe me a drink! ;o)
care about Norway's standards
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hi Misha, You stated, "...I'm not sure I really care that much how the breed progresses or regresses by Norway's standards." But then you go on to say "When I bought a Fjord, I was looking for a quiet tempered muti-use horse that could do farm work as well as excell as a riding and driving horse." Guess what - those are Norway's standards! You then talk about "a few Morgan breeders who try and keep those foundation qualities," and go on to say, "That's what I plan on doing with my Fjord herd." So actually you do care about whether or not the breed progresses according to Norway's standards - Good For You!! : ) Brian Jacobsen
Re: Breed Standards - Extravagant Movement
This message is from: Julia Will <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >One item that particularly bothered me was that "extravagant action" was >listed under the section "UNDESIRABLE ASPECTS OF CONFORMATION (FAULTS). >I asked that this be clarified, and also asked that if by "extravagant >action" they meant a long, extended stride in the trot, and that was a >fault, then that part be changed. In the version of the Breed Standard that you saw at Woodstock, under faults,"way of going", it said "extreme, excessive action" (not extravagant action) and under desired "Movement" it said "...a free-flowing length of stride without excessive high knee action and/or long exaggerated reaching movement at the collected and working trot." In the finished version: MOVEMENT The way of going for the Fjord Horse is straight and true with good forward movement. The gaits are well balanced, with a regular cadence and a length of stride where the hind hoofprint oversteps the front hoofprint at the walk and trot. · Walk: The Fjord Horse will be eager and efficient, moving in a four-beat cadence. · Trot: A true two-beat diagonal gait. Being a powerful gait, the trot demonstrates the characteristic traits of speed, comfort and athletic ability. The trot comes naturally, and is the most favored gait of the horse. · Canter: Should be balanced and free with good forward movement. Under faults, you are correct in that it lists"extravagant action" . The dictionary defines "extravagant" as 1) lavish or imprudent 2) exceeding reasonable bounds, excessive, unrestrained 3) extremely abundant, profuse 4) unreasonably high, exorbitant "Extravagant action" (to my way of thinking) does not mean, free moving, athletic, long stride, etc., all of which are covered in the desired movement section. >I recently perused the Standards on the NFHR website, and, lo and behold, >there is the same wording under FAULTS AND UNDESIRABLE ASPECTS >OFCONFORMATION. "EXTRAVAGANT ACTION." I'm sorry you do not like the way this is put, but please note that the original terminology WAS altered. Also the term "extravagant action" as undesirable was taken directly from the Norwegian breed standard information given to the NFHR in 1996. Have a good night. Julie
Re: Breed Standards - Extravagant Movement
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Arthur Rivoire) Good Day from Carol Rivoire at Beaver Dam Farm in Nova Scotia - I first saw the proposed Breed Standards at the Woodstock Show in 1997. There were a few things I objected to and wrote to the Standards Committee. One that really got me was the section on movement. There was very little written in the Standards about the way a Fjord moves, and that was wrong because the way a Fjordhorse moves is VITALLY IMPORTANT to how he's judged. One item that particularly bothered me was that "extravagant action" was listed under the section "UNDESIRABLE ASPECTS OF CONFORMATION (FAULTS). I asked that this be clarified, and also asked that if by "extravagant action" they meant a long, extended stride in the trot, and that was a fault, then that part be changed. There were other breeders objecting to the same phrasing. I recently perused the Standards on the NFHR website, and, lo and behold, there is the same wording under FAULTS AND UNDESIRABLE ASPECTS OFCONFORMATION. "EXTRAVAGANT ACTION." I'm asking that Julie Wills or someone from the Standards Committee explain exactly what they mean by extravagant action being undesirable. Perhaps they mean, extravagant knee action. If so, they are correct, but they are very wrong to have put it that way in the Standards. How is a judge to know what is meant by EXTRAVAGANT ACTION being undesirable and a fault? Either way, this is a big mistake, and something should be done. EXTRAVAGANT ACTION meaning a horse with a big, extended trot is NOT A FAULT in a Fjord or for any other breed I know of, except Peruvian Pasos, I guess. LONG, REACHING, EXTENDED STRIDES ARE A VERY GOOD THING IN ANY HORSE MEANT FOR SPORT. I'm not saying every Fjord has to have this kind of action to be a very good horse, but certainly one who does should not be penalized. Please be so good as to explain this to me. Thank you, Carol Rivoire Carol and Arthur Rivoire Beaver Dam Farm Fjords II R.R. 7 Pomquet Antigonish County Nova Scotia B2G 2L4 902 386 2304 http://www3.ns.sympatico.ca/beaverdf
Re: Stallion Standards
This message is from: Marsha Jo Hannah <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > My point here is that by adopting some hypothetical current standard > (say for a stallion built like a wide receiver rather than a tight end > or a linebacker), and making this mandatory, we run the risk of losing > potential markets for our horses. When the American standard was first proposed, I heard some concern about exactly this point. Breeders and users of draft-type Fjords, who had been to the Norwegian evaluations, were not pleased to see that their approved stallions were very uniform in size---most within an inch of 14hh. I also heard one older Norwegian judge say something to the effect that there were those in Norway who were happy to see North Americans preserving some of the "types" that Norway was losing! > Do we want to see the Fjord breed go in the direction of the Morgan? Interesting. I often refer to Fjords as the "do anything" horse that the Morgan used to be, before the show ring ruined them Marsha Jo HannahMurphy must have been a horseman-- [EMAIL PROTECTED] anything that can go wrong, will! 30 mi SSE of San Francisco, Calif. ---
Re: Stallion Standards
This message is from: GAIL RUSSELL <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Conformation should be harmoniously >balanced and must always be complemented by substance of body and ample bone." Been pondering the conformation standard issue - and the temperament issue. The above reminded me of why I bought my first Fjord. The year I turned 50 I decided to get another horse. Originally thought I'd get a shire - just to have a big beautiful horse. Went so far as joining the Shire Horse Registry. Then I took a hard look at their size and suddenly remembered the cute Fjord horses I saw at the Calgary stampede years ago. Here was a horse that was drafty, heavy boned, hard hooved (read - I was sick of my QH-cross constantly coming up lame as a child), easy-keeping, *cute* and small enough to ride. Actually, gentleness didn't really figure in that much - though I would not have bought a thoroughbred - as I did not realize just how intimidating horses can be when you are a mature adult who now *knows* they can kill or cripple you. Today gentle is a factor - but I would probably choose a horse that had a bit more energy than the best therapeutic riding horses have. And now that my interests have evolved I am looking for a low-level dressage and trail horse. So... the concept of utility and maintenance free was at the forefront when I bought my first Fjord. Was looking for the Saturn Automotive version of the horse. My second Fjord I was looking for more athleticism - after discovering that it is difficult to find places to trail ride and drive in California - so the next best outlet for my desire to just be doing something with my horse is to start dressage training. At this point I would probably not choose a drafty Fjord again - and I believe it would be difficult to market one on the California coast as most horses live out their lives performing and practicing in arenas where more agility is desired. My guess is that many of the multiple-Fjord owners on this list have a similar story to tell about the differences between their first and subsequent Fjords. So, give me a turbo boosted Saturn, with a convertible top, dun-coloured with black pin stripes and big brown headlights and I'll be happy! Gail Gail Russell Forestville CA [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Stallion Standards
This message is from: Julia Will <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Good questions! And something that we are trying to address in our "almost finished" standard for the NFHR. To quote... "Historically, Fjords have appeared in different shapes, models or body types, according to the different needs of the times. From this wide genetic pool comes the versatile Fjord of today, which is not a specialized breed, but a breed with horses of different types and sizes which can be used for a wide variety of activities. Horses that meet the set conditions and demands of quality are equally acceptable, although they can be of different sizes and body types. Conformation should be harmoniously balanced and must always be complemented by substance of body and ample bone." As soon as the Standard is a "done deal" I will post it in full on this mailing list. Julie @ Old Hickory Farm
Stallion Standards
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] A while ago I had a very interesting discussion with Wayne Hipsley about how the Fjord horse breed standard has changed over time. Wayne, if you're there, please fill in detail and/or correct me if wrong, but, it is his understaanding that the so-called "modern" stallion type is really very much like what was bred for in the late 1800's. That the more "drafty" type became sought after in the early part of this century (WW I?) becasue of the lack of gasoline for farm work. Now, the "modern" type is back in fashion. We discussed the concept of and "athletic" stallion and I pointed out that (using a football analogy -American fortball, that is), how running backs, wide receivers, linebackers, tight ends, defensive linemen, etc. are all athletic, although normally all represent very different body types of athletes. My point here is that by adopting some hypothetical current standard (say for a stallion built like a wide receiver rather than a tight end or a linebacker), and making this mandatory, we run the risk of losing potential markets for our horses. I realize that there is a lot of interest in fjords for dressage, jumping and the like, and that, ideally, this may lead to selection for a more upright, finer-boned fjord. However, it should be noted that there is still a strong demand for the more "drafty" , strong-boned type as well. (I have no problem with selecting for increase height and length of body, and good overall balance and blending of body segments.) However, I personally would be concerned that individuals breeders could be precluded from following a line of breeding that results in athletic horses that can do many things well, but might not fit a certain type. I admit that this may tendency to individualism may be an "Amercan" characteristic. We were, after all, founded as a country by rebelling against centralized control, and clearly few Americans would be comfortable with state-imposed standards that are accepted in Europe. (e.g., the absolute prohibition against converting agricultural land to house lots that is the law in Germany and (I believe) other EU countries). Do we want to see the Fjord breed go in the direction of the Morgan? I meaning no disrespect to the breed, but simply point out that the typical "modern" Morgan has a very different type compared to the breed's progenitor, Justin Morgan. Will the current standard always be the one? Sorry for the long message. I look forward to other discussion/perspectives/opinions.
