Virtual Evaluations
This message is from: Steve McIlree <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> One just needs to look at the photographs used in advertisements in the Herald to see the absurdity of this suggestion. The majority of pictures, other than those obviously shot by a professional photographer or very talented amateurs, leave much to be desired in the way of composition and quality, to say nothing of how few truly reveal the horses' conformation. So why think that the owner produced video could hope to stand up to the work done for the owner who could afford to hire a top videographer who was familiar with shooting horses? And the same geographical problem of access to to live Evaluations would crop up in the question of access to good video production companies. If you don't think this is a problem, just watch locally produced TV ads in various parts of the country. I believe this suggestion would skew the whole process in favor of deep pockets with close proximity to major media centers. -- Steve McIlree - Pferd, Skipper & Clust - Omaha, NE/Las Cruces, NM, USA From each according to his culpability, to each according to his greed. --Arianna Huffington
Re: Virtual Evaluations
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: Ron & Sherrie Dayton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Monday, February 6, 2006 11:16 am Subject: Virtual Evaluations > This message is from: "Ron & Sherrie Dayton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Hi all, > PNGPG also does clinic's Brian and > Ursula have > video's from past Evaluations that show the patterns and what needs > to be > done to present your horse PNPG has done a good job in trying to promote Fjords and make these events available What about recording these actual evaluations and making them available to the membership as part of or in addition to the training DVDs? > clinics. I tried to get to the one PNFPG held in Washington and also considered Libby. That is my area but I would only be able to bring one or two horses and it is a long haul . To do a horse justice takes more than a week( 2-4 days to drive both ways, 1-2 to attend clinic and one to do evaluation and then several more for the show) > did a clinic for PNFPG it only cost about 30.00 per person for an > all day > classroom clinic with the video and lots of questions and answers > as well as > handouts to take with you. It was well worth the dollars that I > spent. I drooled over the clinic when it was announced. The planefare to get to the clinic sans horse was close to 800.00 from here. > > > Evaluation at > Libby in conjunction with the Libby 20th Anniversary show. The > dates would > be the 6th and 7th and the show would be the 8th thru the 10th. Case in point 6-10 days out of a work schedule. Or close to $1,000 per horse to transport commercially plus I have to get there. It is held just at the beginning of school for many of us ( I teach in the University). and I am in a neigboring state. I am not trying to be argumentative and I tried valiantly to get to the last evaluations and to Libby last year. VS put the final cabosh on that one . I salute those who can do it. It is a once every few years if ever event for some of us. So when we do, it would be nice to be very well for-armed with the types of things we are discussing here and maybe also have the advantage of a virtual evaluation system for some stock. Definitely would help overcome our distribution problems. Another but related topic. When you compare the number of stallions in North america with the Germans, Danish, Dutch and Norwegians, please remember that you are comparing apples to oranges. That comparison is equivalent spatially to having 50-60 stallions in Montana, another 30-40 in Wyoming, the same in each of Utah and Idaho. Quarter horses yes, Fjords, in your dreams. We have orders of magnitude fewer horses. AI is wonderful and I have used it on my horses for years, but, the number of fjord stallions available through AI is relatively small, you have to live clse to an airport and not everyone has the services of a good equine reproductive vet. Part of the allure of the Fjordhorse is its versatility and suitability for ordinary people, and that will be our ultimate market after we get done selling our breeding stock to each other. I agree with a previous lister that if it is too difficult or expensive to maintain the quality breeding, commerce will demand a less desirable way, or we will fail to promote the horses to the right people. Different circumstances call for different solutions and maybe this discussion will lead to constructive solutions which will address some of these problems, without dismantling the current system.. > > > >Kathy in Idaho
Virtual Evaluations
This message is from: "Ron & Sherrie Dayton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Hi all, One thing that no one has touched on is that this is a very young system. As more horses are Evaluated there will be a larger pool of Evaluated horses to choose from. I don't recall that anyone has advocated that only Evaluated horses be bred. Yes there has been talk about breeding the best to the best, but that's always the way it should be. Personally I think that having a horse one on one with a couple of Evaluators for 10 or 15 minutes is a far better system anything else out there. Virtual Evaluations might be a useful tool for young stock. Young horses change so much in their first 3 years. I still think that fully mature horses need the hands on type of Evaluation that we have now. We need more trained Evaluators and regionally, trained people that can help organize and put on the Evaluations. PNGPG also does clinic's on how to present your horse for Evaluation, they're usually done at the Spring Meeting which gives everyone five to six months to prepare their horses and themselves. I know that Brian and Ursula have video's from past Evaluations that show the patterns and what needs to be done to present your horse as well as some examples of not "doing your horse a favor", it does your horse no good to take him or her out of the pasture a month before an Evaluation and take 50 pounds off them and then try and have them Evaluated. The horse needs to be worked and conditioned before hand as well as the handler needs to be in shape. The handler needs to be able to jog the horse at a good pace so the Evaluators can see the movement. I've seen the Evaluators ask and re-ask a handler to trot and re-trot a horse because they want to really get a good eye view of how that horse moves. They move around, they squat down at ground level to see how the hooves hit the ground, they really try and give every horse the benefit of the doubt, all of that would be lost with virtual evaluations. At the end of the day when they make their comments I've heard any number of times the Evaluator say "we just couldn't see the movement and so couldn't score them accordingly" or something like that. It wasn't for lack of trying on the Evaluators part. They do everything that they can do to have that horse presented in the very best light. The Evaluators comments at the end of the day would all be lost if we went to virtual Evaluations. The only person that would have those comments would be the horse owner. These comments are extremely educational to those that are present. A lot of first time Fjord owners can learn a lot by listening to the Evaluators at the end of the day. Evaluations are not just about having horses evaluated but EDUCATION as well. We would loose all the education that comes from the Evaluators comments as they are now done if we switched to virtual evaluations. I do think that an instructional DVD or Video by NFHR on Evaluations and how to prepare for them would be a good idea. It could be purchased by the clubs or individuals and then the clubs or groups that want to sponsor an Evaluation could have a meeting or get together and watch and learn from the DVD. If further info is needed then have a clinic with someone like Brian & Ursula, or Gayle or Anne or who every else in your area does clinics. It will cost a little but in the long run you and your horse will be better prepared and your horse will be Evaluated at his or her best, and that's the bottom line. IF I remember correctly the last time that Brian and Ursula did a clinic for PNFPG it only cost about 30.00 per person for an all day classroom clinic with the video and lots of questions and answers as well as handouts to take with you. It was well worth the dollars that I spent. As I stated earlier, this is a young system but I think that it is still the best thing going and it will continue to change and evolve as we go. Our Registry is only 25 years old! The Evaluation system is even younger. Give it time. Since we're on the subject of Evaluations, all of you in the west or anyone planning on being in the west in September, we are planning an Evaluation at Libby in conjunction with the Libby 20th Anniversary show. The dates would be the 6th and 7th and the show would be the 8th thru the 10th. If you're interested please let me know. Thanks, Sherrie
Virtual Evaluations - The Beginning of An Idea
This message is from: "Beaver Dam Farm" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Hi Everyone - From Kelly MacDonald at Beaver Dam Farm. - Trying for the 3rd time to get this through. This discussion about the Virtual Evaluations has been great, and for me, rather exciting. I love the idea of have the chance to have the BDF horses evaluated, and I know that Virtual Evaluations are probably the only way. I know first hand how impossible it would be to travel to an Evaluation. Throughout the discussion there has been good points (for and against), and it's great seeing all the positive support. I remind myself that it's only a basic idea right now. If enough of us decide that it's worthwhile to do, then we should work on specifics. It could also be another avenue for financial support for the NFHR. Instructional DVD sales and Evaluation fees could be set at a price where the Registry could make a profit. I'm sure it would still be less expensive than hauling to a live evaluation. The results from the virtual evaluations should be made public. I understand why they "should carry much less weight" than a live evaluation, especially with the points Lori Albrough made. However, the Virtual Evaluations should still be structured enough to hold enough merit to be made public. Sure it is a great educational tool for owners - but as Janne said - the gene pool will benefit from these evaluation results. The records will clearly state whether the results are through live or virtual evaluation and people can go from there. Those who don't like the idea of Virtual Evaluations can dismiss the results, those of us who like it can use the results to our (and our horses) benefit. To say that people might alter the video footage - airbrushing (?), editing, etc. - is a negative outlook, but yes it could happen. That kind of editing takes a LONG time, with complicated software programs. The altered footage would look much different from unaltered and the viewer (judges) would be able to pick up on that. There could be a rule that any suspicious video footage will be discarded, at the judge's discretion - no questions asked. Maybe the judge's would also be required a short course in Adobe Pro. As Ruthie and Solveig mentioned, the foal can grow out of minor flaws that occurred at birth. The lanky yearling can fill out and gain evaluation points. But - the opposite can also happen. The gorgeous and seemingly flawless colt may look like stallion material at six months. At two years he may have developed some flaws - and now he should be gelded. It's happened. Live evaluations sound like a blast. They do NOT have to be eliminated - far from it! I haven't had the pleasure of attending one - but Karen's description of "a true Fjord village" sounds so great. I'm am so excited to be attending the 25th Anniversary Show this year, and can only imagine the Fjord Village that will be. Anyways, back to the Virtual Evaluation idea - that's what it is, an idea. It is a good idea because it will (somewhat) level the playing field. It is a good idea because it will help increase knowledge and awareness of the good Fjords out there. There are horses that deserve to be recognized within the breed, and this seems like a fitting way to do it. Kelly MacDonald Beaver Dam Farm Fjords II, Ltd. Phone: 902-386-2304 Fax: 902-386-2149 URL: www.beaverdamfarm.com E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] "Raised by the Sea in Health and Tranquility" Visit our NEW Riding Vacation page on our website today! http://www.beaverdamfarm.com/pages/riding-vacation/index.html
virtual evaluations, stallions and stock show
As a relatively new Fjord owner, I'd love to be able to watch an educational video on evaluations to learn what the evaluators look for. It'd be great to have several different horses and a few different evaluators comment on each. I had the pleasure of watching an evaluation in Libby in 2005, I especially loved hearing the comments the evaluator made to explain his decisions. But one aspect of the evaluation itself doesn't seem like it would lend itself to "virtual realty" -- the "presence" (in the sense of demeanor, energy, attitude, not location) of each horse. Another thing that I'd also love to be able to see is a video containing pictures of some of the great stallions people have been discussing on the digest -- perhaps with pictures of some of their offspring as well. Not for breeding purposes but for general educational information. Sounds like some of these fjord gentlemen are getting older, it'd be wonderful to have a video compilation including them before it's too late. I'm hungry for fjord knowledge! Finally, the account of the Stock Show was incredible. Talk about magnificent ambassadors for the breed! Beth Beymer, Sandy North, the Starfire Farm and Green Valley Farm horses, and all riders and horses are to be commended! I wish they could take the show on the road! Beth German New Mexico
Re: Virtual Evaluations
This message is from: "Beaver Dam Farm" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Hello from Carol Rivoire at Beaver Dam Farm in Nova Scotia There was a lot of good discussion about this subject while I was away this weekend. There are a few points I'd like to make as well as respond to a few ideas and comments. First of all . . . . IS THIS A SOUND IDEA THAT WILL BENEFIT THE HORSES AND THE OWNERS? If so, let's examine it thoroughly, and figure a way to make it work, maximizing the positive aspects and minimizing or eliminating the negatives. I think we also have to remember that Live Evaluations are not perfect either. -- Very far from perfect! -- ThinkThese things will affect his performance, and very likely affect his movement. If the horse is nervous, he is not going to move out in a calm, relaxed way. He will not show himself as he really is. Other things that can happen at a Live Evaluation . . The horse has a bad day! -- He gets sick - colic maybe - He goes lame, or a little off -- How can you fairly evaluate him under those circumstances? - Is it fair to even try? -- There's a reason why in Norway they take a stallion to the Stallion Center and keep him for 8 weeks or whatever the time period is. - He gets to settle in. His handler/rider/driver gets to know him, and vice versa. -- The stallion gets to strut his stuff and perform in a now familiar lace. -- It's all very fair. == Very much unlike hauling your horse tremendous distances and showing under adverse conditions. Of course, this is also what the 100 Day Testing is all about in the Warmbloods. -- They take 100 days to get to know the stallion, and let the horse show what he really is. -- That's fair to the horse and the horse's owners. -- Nothing is perfect including Live Evaluations. In fact, if we think about it, we'll probably come up with as many cons with Live Evals. as with DVD Evals. For instance, an Evaluation held in the middle of horrible weather conditions. -- high humidity or extremely high winds with stuff whipping through the air all through the Evaluation. -- Is it fair to the horses and owners that those horses will be scored exactly as were the horses from last month's Evaluation which was held in ideal conditons? -- Despite adverse conditions, the scoring that goes into the record book will be based on what the judges saw on that day. That's all they can do. That was a good point Pat made about a judge often having to "feel" the horse. I'd thought of that as well, and that's where the vet on the premises comes in. He would have to be a horse vet.-- I certainly agree with Pat on that point, but don't agree with her that particular point is "why it won't work".It's a valid point, and something that would have to be worked out. I agree with Karen that blood should be taken to drug test in both Virtual and Live Evaluations. The vet on site would do that. -- The blood could even be centrifuged (or whatever they do with it to make it travel), and the tube could be sent to a NFHR designated lab for testing. We once sent blood from one of our horses to Holland for testing. The point several people made about foals changing is also valid. -- My thought on that is that Virtual Evaluations would allow people to evaluate their foals as weanlings, yearlings, 2 yr. olds, and 3 yr. olds. -- This is what's done in Europe for exactly the reason that's been stated. -- Young horses change all the time. I've inspected a lot of coming yearlings in Holland, and saw with my own eyes how a lot of A Premie weanlings sure didn't look like A Premies at almost a year. I've seen others that were judged B Premies as weanlings that as almost yearlings looked like A Premies. We had five fillies this year sired by Gjest. -- I think they're all great. One is WAY more than great! I'd love to have them all evaluated, but it's not going to happen. Just as it's not going to happen with a lot of other owners. -- Someone mentioned being busy from May - NOvember with farming. Well, we have a summer business that starts in the Spring and runs into the Fall. -- Absolutely no way we could truck horses to a show or Evaluation. EVALUATING CONFORMATION & MOVEMENT -- I think this is very do-able by using DVDs. -- PERFORMANCE TESTS -- I'm not at all sure about these. -- Perhaps something could be done, but I think the problems are fairly easy to envision. I don't see that there's a significant danger of fudging conformation and movement video. -- It would be a nother matter for performance tests. -- In my mind, conformation evaluation and movement evaluation is the most important part of judging breeding stock. -- Performance tests is a whole
Re: RE: Virtual Evaluations
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In my last post, I should have said the dvd evaluation of a single horse - two hours of photography would be $150.00. The production of a good video showing what Mark Skeels post suggested would be more - but certainly within reason and worth the price. Could the upcoming evaluation in October in Winona be a place to start getting some good video footage and a coordinated project going for a training DVD? I bet if I can find a good videographer in podunk Idaho that around Minneapolis it would be a snap.
RE: Virtual Evaluations
This message is from: "Skeels, Mark A \(GE Healthcare\)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> I would have to agree with the below comment, however I do think a video on the evaluation process, what prep, steps, views, all that other stuff that goes with evaluations would be a great tool to have in preparing for an evaluation, even if the virtual evaluation process doesn't work. I'm not talking a camera set in a corner watching someone do an evaluation, but rather, an evaluator, explaining everything, maybe with the use of a pointer stick to show good and bad conformation, positioning, gaits, head types, good legs, bad knees, all the other stuff, even how to trim the hoves for best stance and hair trimming that is allowed, that type of thing. As I said in my earlier post, I think some people just don't do the evaluations because of ingnorance and fear they will maybe look like a fool or do something totally wrong. I for one don't have the slightest idea how to show a horse in a evaluation, I know the pro's actually know how to shove the feet in the sand a certain way to overcome flaws, etc, yes these same people would probably use a camera to lie about their horse.I don't know, maybe evaluators have people reposition the horse if it looks like they are trying to beat the system which they wouldn't have the ability to do with a video. I'm sure if I took one of my horses to an evaluation the horse may get a lower score because of my lack of knowledge, where someone else that is into this evaluation stuff big time would get a better score on the same horse, just because they know what the evaluator is looking for. I also agree that a good evaluator should see thru this sort of thing, but unfortunantly showmanship does make a difference in evaluations too. Anyhow, I think people would pay maybe $30-60 bucks for a well done educational dvd on the subject done by a actual evaluator or two. About 4cents now. Mark Skeels -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, February 03, 2006 3:14 PM To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com Subject: Virtual Evaluations This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] I have to agree with Lori about the huge problems of video in virtual evaluations. I think there is way too much ability for the camera to lie. The other aspect of evaluations is that it is NOT just conformation. There are performance tests for the medallions of quality. It would be nice to keep taping and taping and taping until I got a performance test I really liked! Margaret Bogie Ironwood Farm Rixeyville, VA 22737 http://ironwood-farm.com ***Fjords for sale: 2002 Brown Dun Mare, 2004 Grey Dun and Brown Dun Geldings, 2005 Red Dun Colt***
Virtual Evaluations
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] I have to agree with Lori about the huge problems of video in virtual evaluations. I think there is way too much ability for the camera to lie. The other aspect of evaluations is that it is NOT just conformation. There are performance tests for the medallions of quality. It would be nice to keep taping and taping and taping until I got a performance test I really liked! I also raise warmbloods as well as Fjords. In my warmblood registries, the foals must be inspected prior to their yearling year and again at age 3 or older if being used for breeding stock. (I'm glossing over some fine points, but essentially, you HAVE to get inspected or not get papers.) Every year there are warmblood inspections all over the US. Most registries will have several of them in a state. Schedules are posted in advance so you can plan on which evaluation to attend. There are no video evaluations allowed -- you have to show up with the horse. For some breeders, that means some serious traveling. I do understand the problems we have with our current evaluation system. We need to have more of them throughout the country every year. However, as someone who has been on the host committee for the Virginia 2001 and 2004 evaluations, I can tell you that there is huge pressure from the NFHR not to lose money on an evaluation because of low attendance. The 2001 Virginia evaluation was held ONLY because several of us breeders pledged to pay any shortfalls. I believe that the 2005 CA evaluation had to do the same thing, but that's secondhand knowledge. I know that one evaluation was canceled in the last few years because the sign-up was low. Personally, I think the NFHR should hold more evaluations annually. The past delivery system seemed to resemble a "Brigadoon" model, with evaluations appearing and disappearing into the mists of time. I do think it is getting better. This year, I think I am taking our stallion to the Massachusetts evaluation for his conformation and intro tests. I'll probably send another Fjord with him simply because there is room on the trailer. It's not going to be convenient or cheap, but that's the closest evaluation that works with my schedule. Margaret Bogie Ironwood Farm Rixeyville, VA 22737 http://ironwood-farm.com ***Fjords for sale: 2002 Brown Dun Mare, 2004 Grey Dun and Brown Dun Geldings, 2005 Red Dun Colt***
Re: virtual evaluations
This message is from: "jgayle" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Ruthie, I rarely enter into these comments about stallions, breeding etc. But I agree with you re foals and cite my Charley as an example. He was huge and the mare was a maiden. We had a struggle to get him out as she pushed. Because of his size his right legs were "windswept" and he was down on his hind pasterns. I can visualize a picture of him as a foal!! Yet he grew straight and went on to succeed in dressage until an injury sidelined him. Jean Gayle Author 'The Colonel's Daughter" Occupied Germany 1946 to 1949 Send: $20 to Three Horse's Press 7403 Blaine Rd Aberdeen, WA 98520
Re: virtual evaluations
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] I personally like the idea of virtual evals, however if a foal is evaluated as a weanling, it should absolutely be evaluated again when it is older. Speaking from experience, weanlings can be perfect, and then change as they grow... I assume the opposite could also be true, but I don't have personal experience with that. In any case, I'm all for the betterment of the breed. Because of that I would have all three of mine evaluated - even [especially] the two that would score poorly. It's hard to not allow emotions into the equation, and I certainly don't want to hurt the breeder, but the fact of the matter is, knowing as much as possible - the good and the bad - about what stallions and mares produce is what's best for the breed. Jamie In the Mountains SW of Denver, CO
Re: virtual evaluations
This message is from: "bushnell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >... -- Don't you agree that as Bob van Bon once said - "The most important thing you can do for the breed in America is to > inspect the foals" --.>> Carol BOB van BON is renowned, his Fjord prowess of legendary proportion, as you have well portrayed him in the past ...but are you absolutely certain that's what he said? (or how he said it) Because it seems to me it would have been MORE important to inspect the parent machinery, before you got down to product quality? It's been our experience that marked changes occur in development between foalhood and three years of age. Sometimes, what might be interpreted as a minor flaw at birth, has a way of correcting itself with time. I have never known of a Fjord foal to have a problem with teeth and/or testicles but I would imagine that they, like other breeds and humans, have development that is individualized and therefore not subject to timed requirement. Didn't someone just technically verify that an improper bite can aright itself with development? As far as testicles go, which is a major subject in dogdom, it has not been scientifically verified that cryptorchism is hereditary, or that breeding one would be detrimental. Although most breeds forbid it, there is no substantiation for disallowing it. But I digress. I've been following the DVD chain of thought and it sounds like there's a lot of interest out there, but I don't agree on foal evaluating at all. I think our vets would rebel if we drug them out here to participate in a DVD, while they have more pressing matters to attend to (worse, they might even laugh at us). Using my imagination here.. a foal might have a difficult delivery and be somewhat compressed or traumatized, but given time, everything would mend itself. Not every living thing enfolds in the same precise pattern, just as your roses are all unique. If the time ever comes when Fjords are all "cooky cutter" foals... we are in "deep doo-doo," because it will mean that the breed has reached the horrific state of homozygosis. So let's always be trying to rectify the culling mentality. That foal that is slow to drop its testicles, or whose bite might be somewhat occluded, might be a vital piece of genetic material; the very contingency for future breed vigor. Of course I realize we are just brainstorming here.. in the doldrums of a late winter, but isn't this our best (and only) opportunity! maybe someone is taking notes, on what may turn out to be a wonderful turn of events for the Fjord. It seems that the DVD idea would be a most effective teaching tool for every Fjord owner. On a different subject... I missed last week...regards "reasons for gelding a stallion"-- I submit the best reason of all: when a stallion has maxed out their reasonable breeding quota. (in the interest of breed genetic health.) Ruthie, nw mt us
Re: Virtual Evaluations
This message is from: "Beaver Dam Farm" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Hello from Carol Rivoire at Beaver Dam Farm in Nova Scotia - Pat commented . . . To change the subject somewhat...about a DVD for Evaluations..ok idea, but I would miss the event and "live show"..yea its expensivebut the fun we have keeping each other calm, the barn jokes, the dinners at midnight, the numbness we usually all feel waiting, the lack of sleep, the black fingers (from hoof black)...opps can't do that anymore...well just the fellowship, live and in person is hard to beat. > -- I think the live Evaluations should and will continue. The NFHR is one big organization with members and Fjords all across North America. -- There's no way the majority of owners and breeders can get their horses to Evaluations. And as I said previously, just because of the distance and the expense, those that do make the trip, are not going to be able to bring all their horses. They will bring their best horses because they want to show them off and and have their opinion of the horse(s) verified. -- While the young ones, and the questionable quality ones will be left on the farm for nobody to see. Pat, aside from losing out on the "fellowship" of a live Evaluation, what do you think about the idea? -- Don't you agree that as Bob van Bon once said - "The most important thing you can do for the breed in America is to inspect the foals" -- Someone wrote to me privately that Virtual Evaluations is a "win/win" dea. --- Everybody is better off, but most particularly the Fjord breed, whose welfare and future is in our hands. I think the most important thing is for members and the BOD to discuss and decide if it is a positive idea. That's the first step. -- After that, the proceedure and wrinkles can be worked out. Karen McCarthy chided me because I said I trusted the European judges I've known. -- I did not infer that U.S. judges can't be trusted. What I did mean was that we should be able to trust our NFHR Evaluators. If we can't, then what's the point either in live Evaluations, or Virtual? What's the point? Kind Regards, Carol Rivoire Beaver Dam Farm Fjords II, Ltd. Phone: 902-386-2304 Fax: 902-386-2149 URL: www.beaverdamfarm.com E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] "Raised by the Sea in Health and Tranquility" Visit our NEW Riding Vacation page on our website today! http://www.beaverdamfarm.com/pages/riding-vacation/index.html
RE: Virtual Evaluations
This message is from: "Skeels, Mark A \(GE Healthcare\)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> What would be interresting, is to have some that are video evaluated, also evaluated live to see how similar the results were. I also think that it is a good idea. I think it would be of the best interest of the breed for the NFHR to invest in making a professional quality dvd of some actual evaluations and all the steps necessary for the video evaluation, etc. We could purchase a dvd if we would like to do these types of evaluations. Then of course, there would be a fee to actually get them evaluated, going to the evaluators and a small fee to the NFHR. Once you have the dvd, you wouldn't need to send it out with every evaluation package. All comments about movement, physical characteristics, breed standard, etc would be given by a professional evaluator and not the possible biased comments of any breeder, etc of the horses in the dvd. It would also be nice to see some examples of good conformation and movement, as well as not so desirable conformation and movement characteristics and told why they are good or not. It would even be nice to have a dvd like this even if we didn't evaluate, just so we could better judge our own horses. I don't know how many people actually have dvd video camera recorders, there are ways to take them from your 8mm or vhs recorder and tape them to a dvd recorder though. More high tech gadgets and toys!! Just my 2cents. Mark Skeels in Helena Montana
Re: Virtual Evaluations
This message is from: "Warren Stockwell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> I Know that Parelli has some training done this way with their up and coming trainers. May be the wrong wordage but you get the idea. I bet somke good ideas could come from looking into that? Roberta
Re: Virtual Evaluations
This message is from: "Beaver Dam Farm" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Hello Everybody from Beaver Dam Farm in Nova Scotia -- Arthur and I were sitting in front of the wood stove having our afternoon chai - which is something that's become a habit this winter. -- I started to tell him about my idea of Virtual Evaluations, and much to my surprise (because he really is an old cumudgeon), he thought it was a great idea. == Even Brilliant == He remembers about 26 years ago, when Bob van Bon told everybody at the Woodstock, VT show (and first U.S. Evaluation) that the most important thing we can do in North America is to "identify" and "inspect" our foals. -- Well, for some years now, the NFHR has required identification in order to register. First it was bloodtyping, and now DNA. -- That's a big step! -- But, there's never been a real attempt at Inspections. -- Yes, there are Evaluations at some places across the country, but think about it . . . . How many people bring foals? -- And isn't it the foals that need inspection the most? -- Van Bon thought so! Anyway, I really was surprised that Arthur didn't pick my idea to pieces, which is his wont. -- But, he didn't. He thought it a very workable project. We were talkling a little bit about the possible logistics. (Please remember that I said "possible"). -- Arthur thought the whole thing very workable. * The horse owner would apply to the Registry to do Virtual Evaluations on his own property. * He would be sent applications for each horse * He would also be sent instructions on exactly how he must present each horse for the camera. These could either be written or on a DVD. * A veterinarian would be required to be on site during the filming. The vet would certify that the horse's teeth were correct and also the genitals for males and females. -- He wouldn't have to stay after that part was done. * The inspection (evaluation) would go exactly as it's done in a live Evaluation - with the exception that the gaits would be judged in free lunging. * Three copies of the inspection on DVD would be mailed to ??? Probably the head of the Evaluation Committee -- or, to the NFHR. * Three judges would judge and record their scores and comments. * The scores would be averaged. * The scores would be communicated to the owner, and recorded in The Record Book -- just as in a live Evlaution. But, with a notation that it was a Virtual Evaluation. += I see this mostly for conformation and gait evaluation, which to me, is the most important -- + The advantages of Virtual Evaluations is that owners could get all their youngstock evaluated. This would enable them to make important decisions in a timely manner. -- Decisions like - to geld or not to geld. -- To keep a filly for breeding, or to sell to a performance home. -- Decisions like - Was this a good cross (mare & stallion) or not? -- Sometimes a judge will tell you not to ever breed that mare to the same stallion. Or, the opposite. I hope other breeders and owners see the simplicity and value in this idea, and will back it by notifying the Board of Directors. Kind Regards, Carol Rivoire Beaver Dam Farm Fjords II, Ltd. Phone: 902-386-2304 Fax: 902-386-2149 URL: www.beaverdamfarm.com E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] "Raised by the Sea in Health and Tranquility" Visit our NEW Riding Vacation page on our website today! http://www.beaverdamfarm.com/pages/riding-vacation/index.html .
Re: Virtual Evaluations
This message is from: "Karen McCarthy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Carole wrote: "I've mostly dealt with European judges, and I wouldn't for a minute question their honesty and impartiality." ...So Carole, perhaps we should have all european judges, to be insure that everything to do with an evalation of our horses will remain strictly honest and impartial? Uh HuhC'mon Carole, please rephrase that one. Couldn't let that zinger fly 'bye...not at this hour! Karen McCarthyGreat Basin Fjords :: Carson City, Nevadahttp://www.picturetrail.com/weegees
Re: Virtual Evaluations
This message is from: "Beaver Dam Farm" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Hello from Carol Rivoire at Beaver Dam Farm in Nova Scotia -- Hi Solveig, So glad you like this idea. -- The thing is it's just a germ of an idea, but it does address the whole purpose of Evaluations, which is to evaluate as many of the entire Fjord population as possible in order to protect and preserve the breed. This message is from: "Olivia Farm, Inc." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Hello everyone from Olivia Farm, Personally, we like the idea of DVD/Video evaluations. And we like even more the idea of adding free longeing to the evaluations. We have been talking for quite a while about the fact that our evaluators are pretty efficient at judging conformation and the movement they are shown, but that so often they are not shown the full potential of the horses movement. Free longeing would definitely help that out. Regarding the concerns you expressed, why couldn't there be an instructional DVD made showing exactly how the horses should be presented. This would be pretty much the same as all the pre-evaluation clinics that are held. However, if the person presenting the horse does not follow the methods and show the horse correctly, then the DVD would be returned asking for another try. But there are a few concerns. What happens when the person doing the free longeing doesn't know how to get the horse really moving? I have watched many a sales video, even ones made by good horse people, that never show the true potential of the horse. In a live evaluation this wouldn't be a problem, the evaluator would just ask for more trot or whatever, but by video they wouldn't have that option. What if the person on the video couldn't set the horse up properly? The evaluators couldn't ask for the horse to be repositioned, and you end up with bigger scoring problems than before. ~~~ I did propose "video" evaluations some years ago, but at that time nobody was interested. -- There are five things we must consider regarding our NFHR Evaluations, and the first is . . . #1 - The purpose of Evaluations is to preserve and protect the breed, and the only way to do that is to evaluate the general Fjord population. (as many as possible) #2 - Distance. time & money is going to prevent the majority of Fjords from traveling to Evaluations. -- #3 - If we don't allow video or DVD Evaluations, the majority of Fjords will not be evaluated. #4 - In this case, the few people who do travel to Evaluations will only bring their best horse or horses, which are precisely the horses that have the least need of Evaluations. -- #5 - If the majority of Fjord owners are shut out of the Evaluations by distance, time & money, then there will be only a small group of evaluated horses. The result of this will be a small, "elite" group of evaluated horses. -- This could be very dangerous in regards to the gene pool . I can certainly imagine the results of only a few "blue ribbon" stallions -- rather than the much larger group there might be if everyone had a chance to have their horses evaluated. Is this a good thing for the breed? -- Well, I think so! If you think it might be, let's please discuss it a lot more. -- And after our Digest discussions, then we'll have to send these ideas to the BOD for their consideration. Solveig said . . . But there are a few concerns. What happens when the person doing the free longeing doesn't know how to get the horse really moving? I have watched many a sales video, even ones made by good horse people, that never show the true potential of the horse. In a live evaluation this wouldn't be a problem, the evaluator would just ask for more trot or whatever, but by video they wouldn't have that option. What if the person on the video couldn't set the horse up properly? The evaluators couldn't ask for the horse to be repositioned, and you end up with bigger scoring problems than before. I think we just have to have honourable judges, and if we think they're not, then we better get some new ones. I've mostly dealt with European judges, and I wouldn't for a minute question their honesty and impartiality. Kind Regards, Carol Rivorie Beaver Dam Farm Fjords II, Ltd. Phone: 902-386-2304 Fax: 902-386-2149 URL: www.beaverdamfarm.com E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] "Raised by the Sea in Health and Tranquility" Visit our NEW Riding Vacation page on our website today! http://www.beaverdamfarm.com/pages/riding-vacation/index.html
Re: Carol's Virtual Evaluations
This message is from: "Terry Hale" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sandy, I am still laughing. Your email is probably appreciated by the large majority of us mostly "lurkers" on the list. My fjord, Elvis, who saw fit to buck me off the first day I brought him home (ok, so the cows and the quad racing in his field might have upset him, not to mention the other horse and riding going off and leaving him alone with "me" on his back, the quad racing toward him and the weird cows fleeing from the quad), anyway, long story short, I haven't been on him since. 10 years ago it may have been a different tale. I have to tell you about Elvis however. I have 4 other horses, and the aforementioned 4 cows on the property. I turn them all out on weekends. They have large paddocks normally (horses). When the rain, winds come, it is time to get everyone back to their own "place", so out I go and mumble under my breath to those darned cows. Not my choice, but my husband's. Anyway, I treat everyone like my lab and think they should all go where I want them to go. Doesn't always work. Then I have to trudge back to the barn and get a rope or long stick thing and "herd" everyone. Last weekend, it was particularly messy weather here in the great Pacific NW and I just thought I could "click" everyone into place. I gave the cows their alpha to keep them busy, then the horses ran in from the back pasture/woods, and found the alpha and the cows spread. You get the picture. Well, these other horses you can only control with halters and lead ropes. I went into the group (probably not a good idea given this one cow) and grabbed the front mane of "Elvis" the fjord, and "clicked" him to come with me (away from alfalpha mind you). That says it all. He is such a good guy. I trudged him along through two gates and two paddocks, and back to his "place". He only got grass hay but he was fine with that. You know, I may never ride him. He's 6 and really needs someone who will. The gal I bought him from in Shelton, WA, rode him a lot. He loves to swim in Puget Sound. Tonight I gave him his treats. I also gave my Arab his treats. I'm a little more careful with the Arab. What I noticed about Elvis when I have given him treats is how careful and soft his mouth is. He sure can tell the difference between my hand and his treat. That's all. I just wanted to share. I enjoy the other stories from the rest of you. I think I am going to try to pack Elvis this summer. I am very confident with him on the ground. I just wish I was braver. The power came back on - we had quite a windstorm here. Take care. Do any of you belong to the Back Country Horsemen??? I think Elvis would enjoy that. Roni Graham, WA - Original Message - From: "Sandy Reiber" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Tuesday, January 31, 2006 7:04 PM Subject: Re: Carol's Virtual Evaluations This message is from: "Sandy Reiber" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> From: Sandy Reiber [EMAIL PROTECTED] As mostly a "lurker" on the list, and an owner (who will probably never ever compete) of a sweet, fat, Fjord gelding who lives far enough away from any evaluation events that we would probably never ever participate (tho it would be fun to see how my Gus...Glen Guard's Miracle...would do) because my fat little Fjord is scared to death of his cart (he probably started the barn fire last spring to get rid of it!)...I would try a virtual evaluation! Whew! Long sentence. For all the reasons everyone gave about why it would be good, I'd also like to add - besides the above sentence - it would be wonderful for us "backyard" Fjord people who don't/can't compete because it would give us (me!)... the extra push to get and keep my horse in shape. I would still want him to look his best - both in grooming the little mud-ball, and his physical condition. Wonderful incentive and Carol's idea would get horses listed that wouldn't be otherwise. I also applaud the idea of the judges not knowing the horse's name, owner or handler. I go to my sis's dressage competitions and know first hand that if all the horses were the same color, the riders faceless and nameless, and the judges had to judge only on what they saw in movements, precision, etc. of the test they are looking at - the outcome would be very different! The same people on lame horses wouldn't be winning.sorry, I digress. That's another soapbox.
Re: Carol's Virtual Evaluations
This message is from: "Sandy Reiber" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> From: Sandy Reiber [EMAIL PROTECTED] As mostly a "lurker" on the list, and an owner (who will probably never ever compete) of a sweet, fat, Fjord gelding who lives far enough away from any evaluation events that we would probably never ever participate (tho it would be fun to see how my Gus...Glen Guard's Miracle...would do) because my fat little Fjord is scared to death of his cart (he probably started the barn fire last spring to get rid of it!)...I would try a virtual evaluation! Whew! Long sentence. For all the reasons everyone gave about why it would be good, I'd also like to add - besides the above sentence - it would be wonderful for us "backyard" Fjord people who don't/can't compete because it would give us (me!)... the extra push to get and keep my horse in shape. I would still want him to look his best - both in grooming the little mud-ball, and his physical condition. Wonderful incentive and Carol's idea would get horses listed that wouldn't be otherwise. I also applaud the idea of the judges not knowing the horse's name, owner or handler. I go to my sis's dressage competitions and know first hand that if all the horses were the same color, the riders faceless and nameless, and the judges had to judge only on what they saw in movements, precision, etc. of the test they are looking at - the outcome would be very different! The same people on lame horses wouldn't be winning.sorry, I digress. That's another soapbox.
