Re: mules & more............ (Andalusians)
This message is from: Me Kint >From Mary's iPad PLEASE REMOVE ALL E-MAIL ADDRESSES BEFORE SENDING OR FORWARDING THIS EMAIL. On Jun 28, 2013, at 11:20, Cindy B Giovanetti wrote: > was totally unprepared Cindy, several years ago I was at a dressage show & one of the riders had an Andalusian with some training. During her test, the horse would do some Spanish walk which was funny yet sad for the lost points. She never expressed regret for her purchase, but I always wondered. Is your horse a stallion or a gelding? I hope he is at least gelded Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l
RE: mules & more............ (Andalusians)
This message is from: Cindy B Giovanetti Sorry, this is a late reply to Julia. We were talking about our Andalusians... <> Another thing we have in common. My Andalusian was with one of those Dancing Stallion Shows before I got him. And I was pregnant when I got him. I was totally unprepared for the reality of handling a high-level horse who was used to professional handling. I wanted to just enjoy him and love on him and have him love me in return. That didn't work out. And as a stay-at-home new mom, there was no money for a trainer. :( <> I'm sure no horse ever regretted time spent in a pasture! <> Me too! I joined this list when I started considering a Fjord. The last time my Andalusian threw me, as I was lying on the couch recovering, I saw a video of a Fjord; and I thought, "I could deal a horse like that!" I joined this list, and the tone was so different from the tone over on the Andalusian list. Much less arguing about showing practices, who/what was hurting resale value, and how mad that made everybody at each other; and much more discussion of regular families enjoying their horses. <> Yep. Over the years I've talked to so many people who do not handle their own Andalusian. They had them with a professional (or they *were* professionals). Andalusians are like Lamborghinis. Not everyone who admires them needs (or can handle) a car/horse like that. Sadly, that was my case. I tried really hard with my Andalusian. I learned a lot. I enjoyed him. I admired him. I loved him. But I never trusted him (and vice versa). I could never put kids on him, ride him on a loose rein, take him on a trail ride, or just relax around him. I did (or *tried*) all those things once or twice, and it was just so stressful, I didn't want to keep trying. <> I think a big difference between owning an Andalusian and owning a Fjord is that **good** horsemanship will suffice for a Fjord. If you're careful and thoughtful and try to do things right, it's good enough. With an Andalusian, one needs **exceptional** horsemanship to make it work. They're just so sensitive, reactive, and athletic. (And, yes, of course I realize there are individual differences within each breed; and even good days and bad days within each individual. I'm talking in broad generalities.) I do think the Fjord is a much more practical choice for many **good enough** (but not exceptional) equestrians. Anyway, I'm an older, decent (NOT fabulous) equestrian, and I am delighted to be involved with *this* breed now. :) Cindy Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l
Re: mules & more............
This message is from: Me Kint >From Mary's iPad PLEASE REMOVE ALL E-MAIL ADDRESSES BEFORE SENDING OR FORWARDING THIS EMAIL. On Jun 24, 2013, at 18:06, "Jo Wilgus" wrote: > but i pretty much believe " 99% of the time, it is NOT the horses fault". How very true, but poor handling can allow certain types of horses to be a rogue. The book I mentioned "Ride the Right Horse" has a category of horses listed as "challenging" personalities. The author maintains that a horse with this strong personality type should only be handled & ridden by a really good professional. They can be very dangerous/ deadly in the hands of less skilled handlers. CA can turn such a horse around, BUT he is the first one to say that if the owner/handler doesn't keep up with the method & not maintain their authority, the horse will go back to its old ways & become dangerous again, these horses need consistent proper handling. Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l
Re: mules & more............
This message is from: "Jo Wilgus" I have had several different breeds in my 45 yrs of horses. Nothing and i mean nothing comes close to a FJORD, in my opinion. My very dear friend has a mule, she has told me straight out, her mule WILL kill a dog. Horses are not mean? Anyone see the movie BUCK? I have also first hand seen the upper arm of a cowboy who was attacked by a horse. The horse did not live to finish his training. Had another friend who had a horse who came at her when she went in his stall. He was sold to a more experienced owner. I feel strongly that good horsemenship is necessary for the horse to be willing. There may be "snags" sometimes along the way, but i pretty much believe " 99% of the time, it is NOT the horses fault". Fjords just make ownership more fun. They are smart, happy, people oriented, willing. If they are not confident in their handler, i can see how they may get a reputation for being stubborn. Regn and Duffers had fantastic starts which has helped them become fantastic adults. jo wilgus gavilan hills, ca it is going to heat up very soon. :( ~~~ I believe that the breed is the safest of all other horse breeds for long term, all around, routine handling. their willing temperaments are their Hallmark--> it has also been said that a mule will try and kill a dog too, more than hearsay, > referring back to a previous comment, that "horses cannot be mean.." http://horses.about.com/od/basiccare/a/horsesafety.htm Ruthie, nw mt US Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l
Re: mules & more............
This message is from: Me Kint >From Mary's iPad PLEASE REMOVE ALL E-MAIL ADDRESSES BEFORE SENDING OR FORWARDING THIS EMAIL. On Jun 24, 2013, at 16:48, "ruth bushnell" wrote: > because they are so wonderful it > is possible to let your guard down too far. follow the same safety rules > as for other breeds, just to stay safe. This is excellent advice for newbies to horses & a reminder to all of us Mary Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l
Re: mules & more............
This message is from: "ruth bushnell" > Ditto-Ditto for me Mary...I would Never have a Fjord after reading these > ghoulish stories!! SK > > on behalf of Fjords, judging by our long time close association with them, plus experience with other breeds of horses too.. I believe that the breed is the safest of all other horse breeds for long term, all around, routine handling. their willing temperaments are their Hallmark-- I once heard it said that, by and large, they have it over mules in that respect.. willingness is worth a lot ! it has also been said that a mule will try and kill a dog too, more than hearsay, I have it stated in a book too (please don't make me tear the house apart looking for it, ha ha) I've no doubt said it before and you can find it in the archives. referring back to a previous comment, that "horses cannot be mean.." I'm here to tell you that they (non-FJ's) can be, had one dive at me once with malicious intent.. had never seen it before (or since, hah) and for no reason whatsoever it zeroed in on me, it was in a pasture with a couple others. someone asked us to check out a horse for them and this maniacal horse made a beeline for me. gave me a whole new perspective on horses. it's so nice to have some Fjord horse email in my box.. good to hear from all of you. here's just a few tips on safe handling, I'm sure there are many more. as wonderful as Fjords are, they are after all, a horse! (not a big dog and not a teddy bear) because they are so wonderful it is possible to let your guard down too far. follow the same safety rules as for other breeds, just to stay safe. http://horses.about.com/od/basiccare/a/horsesafety.htm Ruthie, nw mt US Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l
Re: mules & more............
This message is from: Kathleen Prince I was discussing the recent discussions of muleness & personalities w/ my NH trainer, who also happens to be my barn mate. We've been dealing w/an injury to my 5 yr mare's foot, having to hose, medicate, wrap, etc. We were talking when he was hosing her the other morning and she didn't want to be hosed on her boo-boo. He said he considers a horse like her to be "forward" but not in the way people think of QH or Arabs being forward/bolting, etc. She's forward in that she will just calmly walk thru a brick wall to do what she wants. He also mentioned that she's big for her britches and she's got pretty big britches! Even w/this, she is a sweet girl and when given the opportunity to think, usually understands what needs to happen. -- Kathleen Prince kathl...@pookiebros.com Check out our blog! http://www.cassidyapril.com Pookie Bros. Pet Sitting Professional Pet Care In Your Home! http://www.pookiebros.com On Jun 24, 2013, at 5:44 PM, S K wrote: > This message is from: S K > > > Ditto-Ditto for me Mary...I would Never have a Fjord after reading > these > ghoulish stories!! > > > _ Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l
Re: mules & more............
This message is from: S K Ditto-Ditto for me Mary...I would Never have a Fjord after reading these ghoulish stories!! From: Mary Ofjord To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com Sent: Friday, June 21, 2013 12:48 PM Subject: mules & more This message is from: "Mary Ofjord" I have not heard of Fjords with the issues that have come up with this current thread, but apparently they are out there. Such as; not liking to have their feet handled; kicking when cornered (any horse would do that); unfriendly Fjords, bolting and spooking... I have never seen any of these qualities in any of the Fjords I have been around. If I didn't know better and had just read these past few posts, I surely would not want a Fjord. These are not horse issues; they are more than likely caused by people's improper handling of the horses. And in praise of mules; nowadays, the mule people are breeding some outstanding mules - beautiful animals, and when treated and started with kindness and respect, they turn out just fine. I'm not saying you have to be wishy-washy around them, but some of the comments about bad mules also come from improper handling of the animals - the 'Old Mule Skinner' ways. The comment below from Rovena's trimmer about the mules aiming to kill just exacerbates the reputation of these fine animals. So sad. Mary Ofjord North Coast Services, LLC 218-387-1879 You mean about how mules kick? This message is from: Theresa Christiansen Wow! I own both mules and fjords and have for years. I couldn't disagree more with your farrier. > This message is from: Rovena Kessinger > > > Yea it seems like a lot of horse people are scared of mules. My > trimmer was very, very cautious. She siad mules kick to kill, and > they can aim. They think the fjord is so cute and cuddly, but he is > actually a lot more likely to hurt somebody than the mule. The mule > always knows where his feet are, never tries to kick anybody, and he > is very friendly to people, and loves for people to pet him and talk > to him nicely. The fjord is not very friendly and is scared by people > he doesn't know, plus he's clumsy, so is much more likely to squash > somebody. Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l
RE: mules & more............
This message is from: Julia Webb > That was me and my Andalusian all over. Except that I didn't have a > professional trainer. I tried to make do at home. It was so sad. Well, poor Ares... He got started by a professional at 4, and then I got pregnant. No money for trainers. It wasn't until fall of last year that I was able to get him back into training. He'd spent 6 years just rotting in the pasture, and the sad thing is that he LOVED working. I did as much as I could from the ground, but I didn't dare work him from the saddle - he gets all his confidence and joy from the rider. I knew that with my nerves, I'd ruin him (and likely myself). I'd have sold him except that the market tanked, and after one inconsiderate rider rough-housed him in the roundpen, I sat down and cried. I couldn't take it, especially since he was like a first son to me. The next day, I took him off the market and decided that he'd just have to wait until my human son was old enough to divert daycare funding to training. >I'd go > on the Andalusian list and ask for help, and no one else would admit that > their horses ever had an issue. I cynically decided that was because they > were all in the breeding or training business and couldn't let on that all > was not sunshine and rainbows. And Unicorns! Sorry...I couldn't resist. ;-) That is sad. I love how this list is so helpful and very open. There's a lot less of the fluffer-nutter selling practices. I think the problem with the Andalusian world, especially until just recently (I've noticed more people coming out of the closet), is that many of the noob owners -- even the ones who aren't breeders -- bought into the myth and didn't want to be the one to notice the emperor had no clothes. The real issue is (IMHO) is that while Andies are phenomenal intuitive horses who can be kept as studs, you practically live with your horses spending 12 hours a day as the Spanish do. That just doesn't work for most of us here in the States. Besides...horses are horses. Any breed trait can be on shaky ground when novices expect them to be as consistent and unchanging as a four-wheeler. Take Fjords for example. Novices come to the breed because they're calm, good tempered, "bjorn broke" etc. But, without good horsemanship and consistent handling, calm can turn to stubborn or lazy, and good tempered can turn into a spoiled treat monster. But the Fjord community is nothing if not practical. Many of the breeders take care to take care of the newbies, and it makes a difference. > Oden, on the other hand, never goes through the barn without either > squeezing a shoulder, a butt cheek, or his face up against a wall. Eeyore > tells me all the time that the barn is not big enough for the two of them! OMG... that MUST be a draft trait. My husband's Percheron used to scare the crap out of me because she just didn't seem to "get" where her feet were in relation to her surroundings. I rarely saw that with the hotter breeds or the mules (who ARE smarter than horses, but that's not always a better thing) I've had. Unless they were having a nervous breakdown. Then all bets were off. -Julia Ares (Andalusian), Eva (Morgan), Isabella (Fjord Tough!) Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l
Re: mules & more............
This message is from: Rovena Kessinger Yea it's funny someitmes, some animals seem so smart about some things, but so dumb about others that really seem obvious. --- On Sat, 6/22/13, Cindy B Giovanetti wrote: From: Cindy B Giovanetti Subject: Re: mules & more To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com Date: Saturday, June 22, 2013, 5:12 PM This message is from: Cindy B Giovanetti Cindy said: <> Ro said: <> But wait! I qualified my "not-bright" comment with by human measurements. For example, a horse might feel entrapped, and see a partially-open gate, not nearly big enough for a horse to go through; but he might think, somehow, that if he runs fast enough, he can squeeze through it. That's the kind of "not bright" I'm talking about. I know in "horsey ways," they are far smarter than we are. The problem is that they are obliged to live in human environments -- which takes us back to the original discussion. It is up to the human to keep things safe and sensible for the horse because the horse is not bright in human things. Cindy Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l
RE: mules & more............
This message is from: Cindy B Giovanetti <> That was me and my Andalusian all over. Except that I didn't have a professional trainer. I tried to make do at home. It was so sad. I'd go on the Andalusian list and ask for help, and no one else would admit that their horses ever had an issue. I cynically decided that was because they were all in the breeding or training business and couldn't let on that all was not sunshine and rainbows. Anyway, I am so happy to have a sweet, friendly Fjord!! <> That's what I'm talking about! <> I know! I am still adjusting to the difference! Here's an example. I have an open but small barn, but it has partial walls dividing it into a stall, a washrack, a tackroom, and a feedroom. The horses can run right through it or hang out wherever they like. My Andalusian was six inches taller than my Fjord, and also pretty round and thick. He never once bumped into one of those walls. I never once thought the barn was too small. Oden, on the other hand, never goes through the barn without either squeezing a shoulder, a butt cheek, or his face up against a wall. Eeyore tells me all the time that the barn is not big enough for the two of them! It's just funny. <> Excellent reminders. Oden is young too. <> Oh, thank you so much, Julia! That is so sweet of you! It is such a fun project! Videos here: https://www.facebook.com/LifeWithOden Cindy Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l
Re: mules & more............
This message is from: Cindy B Giovanetti Cindy said: <> Ro said: <> But wait! I qualified my "not-bright" comment with by human measurements. For example, a horse might feel entrapped, and see a partially-open gate, not nearly big enough for a horse to go through; but he might think, somehow, that if he runs fast enough, he can squeeze through it. That's the kind of "not bright" I'm talking about. I know in "horsey ways," they are far smarter than we are. The problem is that they are obliged to live in human environments -- which takes us back to the original discussion. It is up to the human to keep things safe and sensible for the horse because the horse is not bright in human things. Cindy Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l
RE: mules & more............
This message is from: Julia Webb Cindy, My first breed involvement was Andies, too! You are so very, VERY right. I still have the boy I bought in utero, but he's with a professional trainer, and I will never be his full-time rider. He is the best boy in the world, loves to work, but so sensitive and reactive... not the best for someone who has very little confidence in the saddle. Trainer is thrilled spitless as she says that if I were so inclined, he could compete at the FEI level. You go, girl. lol! I just wanted a good partner in the arena and to go do parades. Yeah Fjords! Ironically enough, I've actually come off my new Fjord (sprained my wrist in the process). I know what I did wrong, and it wasn't her fault, but boy are Fjords different from Morgans and Andalusians. I have to remember that young-with-training, is still *young*. And that stoic does NOT equal accepting. Thankfully, she's a good girl and not too tall. We'll start over, and I'll begin as I did with my pony mules: Little bits at a time, with plenty of time for relationship building and thinking. -Julia Ares, Eva and Isabella PS: Love your videos. Yep. I'm a fan-girl. ;-) "The world is a dangerous place, not because of those who do evil, but because of those who look on and do nothing." Albert Einstein > Before I got my Fjord, I was into Andalusians. Boy, nowhere does more > mythology abound than in that breed! "Andalusians are so gentle that they > can all be left stallions. They're so intelligent. So noble. So kind. > So willing. They are born balanced on their hindquarters and can do high > school work right from the start..." It just goes on and on. > > Trust me, it isn't true. Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l
Re: mules & more............
This message is from: Rovena Kessinger I think they are bright. :) I've been so amazed at how smart they are. Before I was around them very much, I figured they weren't very smart. --- On Sat, 6/22/13, Cindy B Giovanetti wrote: From: Cindy B Giovanetti Subject: Re: mules & more To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com Date: Saturday, June 22, 2013, 2:26 PM This message is from: Cindy B Giovanetti << I personally believe any horse will bolt given the right set of circumstances...I think it is discouraging, particularly to people who are new to fjords to be told everything the horse does is their fault. ...fjords are horses and they do all the same things other horses do and require the same if not more effort, and skill to train. People tend to think they are easier and maybe some of them are, but I think sometimes they require more finesse to train than other breeds because in my opinion, they tend to be pretty smart and more invested in their relationship with the handler.>> I totally agree with Robin's post. Before I got my Fjord, I was into Andalusians. Boy, nowhere does more mythology abound than in that breed! "Andalusians are so gentle that they can all be left stallions. They're so intelligent. So noble. So kind. So willing. They are born balanced on their hindquarters and can do high school work right from the start..." It just goes on and on. Trust me, it isn't true. A horse is a horse. They are complicated, big, prone to panic, not too bright (by human measurements) . . . and, of course, wonderful, adorable, irresistible, mesmerizing, addictive, beautiful . . . (words fail me). They all have good points and bad, good days and bad. But they all require the human to be educated, thinking, and careful. Cindy Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l
Re: mules & more............
This message is from: Cindy B Giovanetti << I personally believe any horse will bolt given the right set of circumstances...I think it is discouraging, particularly to people who are new to fjords to be told everything the horse does is their fault. ...fjords are horses and they do all the same things other horses do and require the same if not more effort, and skill to train. People tend to think they are easier and maybe some of them are, but I think sometimes they require more finesse to train than other breeds because in my opinion, they tend to be pretty smart and more invested in their relationship with the handler.>> I totally agree with Robin's post. Before I got my Fjord, I was into Andalusians. Boy, nowhere does more mythology abound than in that breed! "Andalusians are so gentle that they can all be left stallions. They're so intelligent. So noble. So kind. So willing. They are born balanced on their hindquarters and can do high school work right from the start..." It just goes on and on. Trust me, it isn't true. A horse is a horse. They are complicated, big, prone to panic, not too bright (by human measurements) . . . and, of course, wonderful, adorable, irresistible, mesmerizing, addictive, beautiful . . . (words fail me). They all have good points and bad, good days and bad. But they all require the human to be educated, thinking, and careful. Cindy Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l
Re: mules & more............
This message is from: Julia Webb Especially when the unwanted behavior leaves you in the dirt 300 yards away from the horse who is now grazing contentedly near her buddy. ;-) - Julia & Isabella (Formerly owned by pony mules.) SC Kansas Sent from my iPhone On Jun 21, 2013, at 4:42 PM, "Rovena Kessinger" wrote: > This message is from: Rovena Kessinger > > > It's very hard not to reward the behavior you don't want sometimes. Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l
RE: mules & more............
This message is from: Rovena Kessinger It's very hard not to reward the behavior you don't want sometimes. --- On Fri, 6/21/13, Teressa wrote: From: Teressa Subject: RE: mules & more To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com Date: Friday, June 21, 2013, 2:52 PM This message is from: "Teressa" Along the lines of Robin's comments, I have a gelding who used to be a bolter. He was a big boy and if he wanted to take control, he would. I am a relative novice horse owner so I don't have years of experience with lots of different horses. But I noticed when a friend was riding him and he would bolt, that he was brought back to the trot and then the walk. Fjords are smart and most like to work but they also like to mess with us humans. I suggested that when she felt the bolt, to turn him, still in the canter, into a 10 meter circle which like a one rein stop slows his pace and then continue with whatever cantering exercise was being done. Once he figured out that the bolt wouldn't get him out of work, he quit doing it. I also think it was his method of getting attention - if he's cantering with someone on his back, he doesn't get petted. That's my gelding - none of my fjords are exactly the same in their disposition - just like none of my schnauzers are. Generally, though, the fjords are affectionate, smart and can figure us out quicker than we figure them out. Often, my reaction to misbehaviors must have seemed like a reward to them. Still happens now. Teressa Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l
RE: mules & more............
This message is from: "Teressa" Along the lines of Robin's comments, I have a gelding who used to be a bolter. He was a big boy and if he wanted to take control, he would. I am a relative novice horse owner so I don't have years of experience with lots of different horses. But I noticed when a friend was riding him and he would bolt, that he was brought back to the trot and then the walk. Fjords are smart and most like to work but they also like to mess with us humans. I suggested that when she felt the bolt, to turn him, still in the canter, into a 10 meter circle which like a one rein stop slows his pace and then continue with whatever cantering exercise was being done. Once he figured out that the bolt wouldn't get him out of work, he quit doing it. I also think it was his method of getting attention - if he's cantering with someone on his back, he doesn't get petted. That's my gelding - none of my fjords are exactly the same in their disposition - just like none of my schnauzers are. Generally, though, the fjords are affectionate, smart and can figure us out quicker than we figure them out. Often, my reaction to misbehaviors must have seemed like a reward to them. Still happens now. Teressa Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l
Re: mules & more............
This message is from: Robin Churchill Mary, I guess you have been lucky. It is true that some of these things may be caused by poor handling or training or perhaps just the interaction between certain people and certain horses, but I've had horses for 20 years and fjords for 10 and have owned 8 horses, 5 of them fjords. Only one of those horses ever bolted and it was a fjord and he did it several times with me and also with one of my friends. Other than that you couldn't have asked for a nicer, better, friendlier, more talented horse so it wasn't that he was just a bad, crazy horse. He had a lot of training and none of it was rough or abusive. He was trailered extensively to clinics and successfully shown locally and regionally. It is likely he required a more confident leader than I was, but he was a fjord and he would bolt, not often but on occasion. And when he would do it, he never got to quit work or got me off, so he was not rewarded for it. I personally believe any horse will bolt given the right set of circumstances, but some are more likely to do it than others and fjords are not exempt from it. I think it is discouraging, particularly to people who are new to fjords to be told everything the horse does is their fault. It is probably true that the majority of the time it is the trainer/handler and not the horse that causes problems either through inexperience or lack of skill and I have been there many times, but fjords are horses and they do all the same things other horses do and require the same if not more effort, and skill to train. People tend to think they are easier and maybe some of them are, but I think sometimes they require more finesse to train than other breeds because in my opinion, they tend to be pretty smart and more invested in their relationship with the handler. Robin in Florida I have never seen any of these qualities in any of the Fjords I have been around. Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l
Re: mules & more............
This message is from: Rovena Kessinger I'm pretty sure it's handling too. Bam-Bam was so head-shy and nervous and ready to run when when I first got him, but now he acts like a puppy when it's just me and him. I just need to get him better with everything else. It's not things he is scared of, but people. Today I had an umbrella, and they were both scared at first, but it only took a few minutes before Bam-Bam was ignoring me opening over his head and all around. Odi the mule wouldn't get close to it when I was opening it up. I think mules are mistreated a lot because they are so stoic. --- On Fri, 6/21/13, Mary Ofjord wrote: From: Mary Ofjord Subject: mules & more To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com Date: Friday, June 21, 2013, 11:48 AM This message is from: "Mary Ofjord" I have not heard of Fjords with the issues that have come up with this current thread, but apparently they are out there. Such as; not liking to have their feet handled; kicking when cornered (any horse would do that); unfriendly Fjords, bolting and spooking... I have never seen any of these qualities in any of the Fjords I have been around. If I didn't know better and had just read these past few posts, I surely would not want a Fjord. These are not horse issues; they are more than likely caused by people's improper handling of the horses. And in praise of mules; nowadays, the mule people are breeding some outstanding mules - beautiful animals, and when treated and started with kindness and respect, they turn out just fine. I'm not saying you have to be wishy-washy around them, but some of the comments about bad mules also come from improper handling of the animals - the 'Old Mule Skinner' ways. The comment below from Rovena's trimmer about the mules aiming to kill just exacerbates the reputation of these fine animals. So sad. Mary Ofjord North Coast Services, LLC 218-387-1879 You mean about how mules kick? This message is from: Theresa Christiansen Wow! I own both mules and fjords and have for years. I couldn't disagree more with your farrier. > This message is from: Rovena Kessinger > > > Yea it seems like a lot of horse people are scared of mules. My > trimmer was very, very cautious. She siad mules kick to kill, and > they can aim. They think the fjord is so cute and cuddly, but he is > actually a lot more likely to hurt somebody than the mule. The mule > always knows where his feet are, never tries to kick anybody, and he > is very friendly to people, and loves for people to pet him and talk > to him nicely. The fjord is not very friendly and is scared by people > he doesn't know, plus he's clumsy, so is much more likely to squash > somebody. Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l
mules & more............
This message is from: "Mary Ofjord" I have not heard of Fjords with the issues that have come up with this current thread, but apparently they are out there. Such as; not liking to have their feet handled; kicking when cornered (any horse would do that); unfriendly Fjords, bolting and spooking... I have never seen any of these qualities in any of the Fjords I have been around. If I didn't know better and had just read these past few posts, I surely would not want a Fjord. These are not horse issues; they are more than likely caused by people's improper handling of the horses. And in praise of mules; nowadays, the mule people are breeding some outstanding mules - beautiful animals, and when treated and started with kindness and respect, they turn out just fine. I'm not saying you have to be wishy-washy around them, but some of the comments about bad mules also come from improper handling of the animals - the 'Old Mule Skinner' ways. The comment below from Rovena's trimmer about the mules aiming to kill just exacerbates the reputation of these fine animals. So sad. Mary Ofjord North Coast Services, LLC 218-387-1879 You mean about how mules kick? This message is from: Theresa Christiansen Wow! I own both mules and fjords and have for years. I couldn't disagree more with your farrier. > This message is from: Rovena Kessinger > > > Yea it seems like a lot of horse people are scared of mules. My > trimmer was very, very cautious. She siad mules kick to kill, and > they can aim. They think the fjord is so cute and cuddly, but he is > actually a lot more likely to hurt somebody than the mule. The mule > always knows where his feet are, never tries to kick anybody, and he > is very friendly to people, and loves for people to pet him and talk > to him nicely. The fjord is not very friendly and is scared by people > he doesn't know, plus he's clumsy, so is much more likely to squash > somebody. Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l
Re: Mules & Fjords
This message is from: Theresa Christiansen I have both also and totally agree! On Thu, Jun 20, 2013 at 9:18 AM, Mary Ofjord wrote: > This message is from: "Mary Ofjord" > > > I have a mule and Fjords. Mules will do anything for you, but you need to > gain their trust first. They will definitely learn to do something if it's > in THEIR best interest! For example, I clicker trained our mule to place > his > foot and keep it on the farrier's hoof stand. It took about two tries and > he had it! When the farrier went around to trim his back feet, he raised > his front foot in the air! Now, anytime the farrier goes into the mule's > stall to trim, he will automatically raise his front foot! Be careful what > you train your mules! > > I find that mules and Fjords are not as easy as other horses to move around > using body language. They are a bit more cold blooded in behavior. I find > myself having to "shout" at the Fjords when I ask them to do something at > liberty on or the longe line. Actually, my mule is easier to move than the > Fjords in that respect, however, when they get it and are paying attention, > they can be quite light to move. When I work with other types of horses, I > have to remember to keep my body language softer and quieter than when I > work with the Fjords. The Fjords are very stoic and self-minded. They > look > out for themselves and that's what some might refer to being stubborn, as > it > is with mules. That being said, once my mule figures out what I am asking, > he will generally go along with my request, but he may have to stop and > think about it first, and I have experienced that with some Fjords too. > > Mary Ofjord > North Coast Services, LLC > 218-387-1879 > > > > This message is from: Me Kint > > > A while back someone mentioned that fjords can have a little mule in their > behavior or something like that. Not being familiar with mules, would > someone explain? I have observed that my few fjords are different from the > variety of horses I have hadmaybe I just know more now but seems that I > have to work more with the fjord mind. Anybody have mules & fjords? What > similarities do you observe? > > Important FjordHorse List Links: > Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e > FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw > FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l > > > -- Theresa Christiansen Little Rock Farm 425 788 2358 206 972 7222 cell Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l
Re: Mules & Fjords
This message is from: Rovena Kessinger Interesting. That's kind of what I figured out. --- On Thu, 6/20/13, Cynthia Madden wrote: From: Cynthia Madden Subject: Mules & Fjords To: "FH-L" Date: Thursday, June 20, 2013, 3:27 PM This message is from: Cynthia Madden When I think of mules & Fjords,I think SMART! I have requently suggested to people in this area of the country to find a mule trainer if there is no Fjord trainer. Avoid at all costs quarter horse trainers, etc. They do not understand a SMART horse (or mule). Both animals are willing and easy to work with (generally) if you treat them with respect and don't try to push them around. It doesn't work. They need to understand what you want and have time to absorb it. . -- Cynthia Madden Las Cruces, NM cynt...@carriagehorse.com No philosophers so thoroughly comprehend us as dogs and horses. ~Herman Melville, Redburn. His First Voyage, 1849 Sometimes you are the pigeon. Sometimes you are the statue. - Anon. *() ()* * ~/ ( o o)* * ~/ \\* *~/ (,,)* Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l
Mules
This message is from: Me Kint My farrier won't do mules. He has had a mule in the past & has done mules. He has made rounds with a farrier that specializes in mules, he had some whopper stories to tell of what mules could-would do & what this farrier would have to do to maintain his safetyScarey stuff. & yet there is that lady on RFD TV who trains mules successfully. I figure you have to understand them & really know what you are doing >From Mary's iPad PLEASE REMOVE ALL E-MAIL ADDRESSES BEFORE SENDING OR FORWARDING THIS EMAIL. Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l
Mules & Fjords
This message is from: Cynthia Madden When I think of mules & Fjords,I think SMART! I have requently suggested to people in this area of the country to find a mule trainer if there is no Fjord trainer. Avoid at all costs quarter horse trainers, etc. They do not understand a SMART horse (or mule). Both animals are willing and easy to work with (generally) if you treat them with respect and don't try to push them around. It doesn't work. They need to understand what you want and have time to absorb it. . -- Cynthia Madden Las Cruces, NM cynt...@carriagehorse.com No philosophers so thoroughly comprehend us as dogs and horses. ~Herman Melville, Redburn. His First Voyage, 1849 Sometimes you are the pigeon. Sometimes you are the statue. - Anon. *() ()* *~/ ( o o)* * ~/\\* *~/ (,,)* Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l
Re: Mules & Fjords
This message is from: Rovena Kessinger I have been doing all positive reinforcement with him and he has really changed a lot since I got him. He and the mule coming running from the field when I call them and are always happy to be with me and love their training. My hoof-trimmer tried to do some very gentle NH with him and he ran away from her the next time she came. He doesn't like to be pressured to do things, but learns very well if he is rewarded. It's funny you say they are like your chow, because I always think Bam-Bam is like my dog, who is a german shepherd/boxer mix and cannot be handled roughly because he has the potential to be dangerous (actually, he is dangerous, but not to me), and what you say is what both of them is true, they need to be handled gently or it won't work, but they would walk all over me if I let them. --- On Thu, 6/20/13, Robin Churchill wrote: From: Robin Churchill Subject: Re: Mules & Fjords To: "fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com" Date: Thursday, June 20, 2013, 1:53 PM This message is from: Robin Churchill I have owned 5 different fjords and they were all different. In general, I find them to be more stoic than other horses, and I think developing a trusting relationship with the handler is more important with them. They will do a lot more for you if you are "their person" and they respect you. The ones I have had would not have done well with rough handling. Calm, consistent handling with positive reinforcement but with very definite expectations is what works best with them. In this way they remind me of my chows. Chows don't respond to rough handling but they must have discipline or they will walk all over you. I agree with Mary that the best way to correct them is through work, if they are naughty they get to work harder not in an angry way, just in a matter of fact way and if they are good they may get to quit early. The other important thing is if you need to take it slow in training them, do so but always set things up for a positive result and so that you win (in other words, get the outcome you were looking for) Some people among us are more skilled with horses than others but that doesn't mean that someone who is inexperienced or not as brave cannot be successful, it just may take longer. Robin in SW Florida where it is really hot and miserable and Magnus and Levi are planning on calling the SPCA if I don't let them on vacation until at least October Some of us run at a higher speed than others - mentally and physically. Our critters can do the same - each is a little different, still those stereotypes persist for Fjords and mules. Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l
Re: Mules & Fjords
This message is from: Robin Churchill I have owned 5 different fjords and they were all different. In general, I find them to be more stoic than other horses, and I think developing a trusting relationship with the handler is more important with them. They will do a lot more for you if you are "their person" and they respect you. The ones I have had would not have done well with rough handling. Calm, consistent handling with positive reinforcement but with very definite expectations is what works best with them. In this way they remind me of my chows. Chows don't respond to rough handling but they must have discipline or they will walk all over you. I agree with Mary that the best way to correct them is through work, if they are naughty they get to work harder not in an angry way, just in a matter of fact way and if they are good they may get to quit early. The other important thing is if you need to take it slow in training them, do so but always set things up for a positive result and so that you win (in other words, get the outcome you were looking for) Some people among us are more skilled with horses than others but that doesn't mean that someone who is inexperienced or not as brave cannot be successful, it just may take longer. Robin in SW Florida where it is really hot and miserable and Magnus and Levi are planning on calling the SPCA if I don't let them on vacation until at least October Some of us run at a higher speed than others - mentally and physically. Our critters can do the same - each is a little different, still those stereotypes persist for Fjords and mules. Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l
RE: Mules & Fjords
This message is from: Rovena Kessinger I had to get a hoof-trimmer who specializes in hard-to-trim equines to drive two hours to do them. The first guy, he tried to do Odi, who wouldn't let him touch his back feet, and Bam-Bam was watching, and when the guy approached Bam-Bam, he jjust went wild, rearing and trying to get away. This trimmer is very calm and gentle and takes her time, like, hours. Odi is fine with her now, but Bam-Bam still gets nervous. --- On Thu, 6/20/13, Mary Ofjord wrote: From: Mary Ofjord Subject: RE: Mules & Fjords To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com Date: Thursday, June 20, 2013, 1:07 PM This message is from: "Mary Ofjord" This is a good point. I have noticed the difference in how my equines act depending on the energy of the farriers. The farrier we have right now is so calm around my horses that he has never even raised his voice - not once! I no longer hear "Quit" or "Stop it" that I heard when I had farriers that took a much longer time to trim my horses. I guess I don't blame them for getting fidgety after have to stand in one spot for about an hour. Our current farrier knows how to hold the horse's feet in a way that is comfortable for them, and he is efficient at his trade. I also believe that our animals pick up on our body signals, without us even being aware of it. Some of us run at a higher speed than others - mentally and physically. Our critters can do the same - each is a little different, still those stereotypes persist for Fjords and mules. Mary Ofjord North Coast Services, LLC 218-387-1879 This message is from: Rovena Kessinger "I'm doing CT too Mary, and working on hoofs right now. Maybe the difference between individuals is more than what the different types have in common, I don't know." . Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l
RE: Mules & Fjords
This message is from: "Mary Ofjord" This is a good point. I have noticed the difference in how my equines act depending on the energy of the farriers. The farrier we have right now is so calm around my horses that he has never even raised his voice - not once! I no longer hear "Quit" or "Stop it" that I heard when I had farriers that took a much longer time to trim my horses. I guess I don't blame them for getting fidgety after have to stand in one spot for about an hour. Our current farrier knows how to hold the horse's feet in a way that is comfortable for them, and he is efficient at his trade. I also believe that our animals pick up on our body signals, without us even being aware of it. Some of us run at a higher speed than others - mentally and physically. Our critters can do the same - each is a little different, still those stereotypes persist for Fjords and mules. Mary Ofjord North Coast Services, LLC 218-387-1879 This message is from: Rovena Kessinger "I'm doing CT too Mary, and working on hoofs right now. Maybe the difference between individuals is more than what the different types have in common, I don't know." . Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l
Re: Mules & Fjords
This message is from: Rovena Kessinger I'm doing CT too Mary, and working on hoofs right now. With my two, it's the fjord who constantly demonstrates what he knows and is much easier to teach than the mule. I taught him to "smile" on command, and he won't quit doing it now, and a guy walked up to us and Bam-Bam scared the heck out of him by putting a big smile right in his face, the guy thought he was attacking. But Odi the mule has started lifting his foot offering foot-lifts, like when I was putting some fly-spray on him. I was near his foot, so I guess he thought he should lift it. But other things are so difficult with him. He still will hardly back up for me, except under training circumstances. It's like he figure he doesn't have to do it unless we're specifically working on that. But Bam-Bam backs up really well all the time now. I wouldn't say he is light and easy to move, but he has gotten much better than he used to be. My hoof-trimmer said Bam-Bam acted more like an arabian than a fjord, because he is so hyper-alert and vigilant and reactive. But I think that is because of his background and he doesn't like people, especially ones who "do things" to him. She said the mule was way overly hyper-alert too. But maybe that's how mules are, I don't know. They only act like that when weird things are going on, but she said a lot of horses are not like that, some are much calmer no matter what is going on around them. Maybe the difference between individuals is more than what the different types have in common, I don't know. . --- On Thu, 6/20/13, Mary Ofjord wrote: From: Mary Ofjord Subject: Mules & Fjords To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com Date: Thursday, June 20, 2013, 11:18 AM This message is from: "Mary Ofjord" I have a mule and Fjords. Mules will do anything for you, but you need to gain their trust first. They will definitely learn to do something if it's in THEIR best interest! For example, I clicker trained our mule to place his foot and keep it on the farrier's hoof stand. It took about two tries and he had it! When the farrier went around to trim his back feet, he raised his front foot in the air! Now, anytime the farrier goes into the mule's stall to trim, he will automatically raise his front foot! Be careful what you train your mules! I find that mules and Fjords are not as easy as other horses to move around using body language. They are a bit more cold blooded in behavior. I find myself having to "shout" at the Fjords when I ask them to do something at liberty on or the longe line. Actually, my mule is easier to move than the Fjords in that respect, however, when they get it and are paying attention, they can be quite light to move. When I work with other types of horses, I have to remember to keep my body language softer and quieter than when I work with the Fjords. The Fjords are very stoic and self-minded. They look out for themselves and that's what some might refer to being stubborn, as it is with mules. That being said, once my mule figures out what I am asking, he will generally go along with my request, but he may have to stop and think about it first, and I have experienced that with some Fjords too. Mary Ofjord North Coast Services, LLC 218-387-1879 This message is from: Me Kint A while back someone mentioned that fjords can have a little mule in their behavior or something like that. Not being familiar with mules, would someone explain? I have observed that my few fjords are different from the variety of horses I have hadmaybe I just know more now but seems that I have to work more with the fjord mind. Anybody have mules & fjords? What similarities do you observe? Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l
Mules & Fjords
This message is from: "Mary Ofjord" I have a mule and Fjords. Mules will do anything for you, but you need to gain their trust first. They will definitely learn to do something if it's in THEIR best interest! For example, I clicker trained our mule to place his foot and keep it on the farrier's hoof stand. It took about two tries and he had it! When the farrier went around to trim his back feet, he raised his front foot in the air! Now, anytime the farrier goes into the mule's stall to trim, he will automatically raise his front foot! Be careful what you train your mules! I find that mules and Fjords are not as easy as other horses to move around using body language. They are a bit more cold blooded in behavior. I find myself having to "shout" at the Fjords when I ask them to do something at liberty on or the longe line. Actually, my mule is easier to move than the Fjords in that respect, however, when they get it and are paying attention, they can be quite light to move. When I work with other types of horses, I have to remember to keep my body language softer and quieter than when I work with the Fjords. The Fjords are very stoic and self-minded. They look out for themselves and that's what some might refer to being stubborn, as it is with mules. That being said, once my mule figures out what I am asking, he will generally go along with my request, but he may have to stop and think about it first, and I have experienced that with some Fjords too. Mary Ofjord North Coast Services, LLC 218-387-1879 This message is from: Me Kint A while back someone mentioned that fjords can have a little mule in their behavior or something like that. Not being familiar with mules, would someone explain? I have observed that my few fjords are different from the variety of horses I have hadmaybe I just know more now but seems that I have to work more with the fjord mind. Anybody have mules & fjords? What similarities do you observe? Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l
fjord mules
This message is from: "Teressa" This has been an interesting discussion regarding cross breeding. I have personal experience with fjord mules. Not my horses! My next door neighbor's field is full of fjord mules. He likes to hunt and pack and decided years ago to breed fjord mules so that he could have a mule with the fjord disposition. When I asked how that worked out, he said, "not very good." All the mules looked like fjords except with skinnier legs and smaller feet and the donkey mark across the withers. Some had a pretty fjord face. But the disposition thing wasn't traveling as well as the coloring. At the end of the day, you have a very fjord looking animal (if you don't know what you're looking for or you are seeing at a distance) but a mule that doesn't behave like a fjord. Just so you know. We have a double fence between my pasture and my neighbor's pasture. He's a welder and after hearing my concerns about an unintentional breeding, he tore down his existing fence and welded one of stainless steel. Nice guy and his intentions were good and I believe he did get a couple of fjord mules with the fjord disposition. I can tell which ones because the ones who don't, have really, really long feet. And he does his own trimming. I'm not sure how our rules of registration would or could be modified to allow a fjord cross that was a mule with the responsible fjord being able to retain its registration. I don't see that there has been any need for that - certainly no requests for a rule change to allow it. As someone pointed out, all things are possible here in the United States. There are no laws that prevent such an event. And so it happens despite our NFHR rules. So those who wish to breed fjord mules are free to do so. Teressa in NW Washington where we are actually having continuous days of sunshine! Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l
Re: Fjord Mules in response to Mike's message
This message is from: "Jo Wilgus" I believe this rule applies in dogs too. I had a friend who had a Corgi. her female went and got herself in trouble with a non Corgi boy. My friend said she had to have them aborted and not tell anyone due to this very deal about crossbreeding. I agree. I am not sure about the what or why but the breed registry must have a reason. Jo Wilgus Gavilan Hills, CA The rule that pertains says: * In the interest of protecting the genetic purity and the highest standards of the Fjord horse, we will withdraw from the Norwegian Fjord Horse Registry any mare or stallion that is used for crossbreeding with another breed or species. Violators will have their membership suspended and will lose all membership privileges including registration, transfer of horses and any voting rights. The names of owners and horses will be placed on the suspended list. Recognizing that by its very nature, a breed association is dedicated to preserving the breed, is there actually a formal policy about Fjord mules? If someone breeds them intentionally, can they be banned from the NFHR? Can a mare be "unregistered?" Yes they can be unregistered. Mike Kate with Joe and Della **Feeling the pinch at the grocery store? Make dinner for $10 or less. (http://food.aol.com/frugal-feasts?ncid=emlcntusfood0001) Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw Classified Ads: http://tinyurl.com/5b5g2f === Norwegian Fjord Horse Registry Mike May, Executive Director & Registrar PO Box 685 Webster, NY 14580-0685 Voice 585-872-4114 FAX 585-787-0497 http://www.nfhr.com mailto:regist...@nfhr.com Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw Classified Ads: http://tinyurl.com/5b5g2f Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw Classified Ads: http://tinyurl.com/5b5g2f
Re: Fjord Mules
This message is from: "Mike May, Registrar NFHR" At 10:01 PM 4/5/2009, you wrote: >This message is from: katesei...@aol.com > >I love Fjords. I love mules. And I have secretly thought that a Fjord mule >would be an amazing work, trail or pack animal. I recently ran across a >photo of a Fjord mule on the Rural Heritage site, and did a little internet >research on them. I was a little dismayed to run across some disparaging >remarks >about the NFHR as it pertains to this subject, so thought I'd ask here to >clarify before jumping to a defense. The rule that pertains says: * In the interest of protecting the genetic purity and the highest standards of the Fjord horse, we will withdraw from the Norwegian Fjord Horse Registry any mare or stallion that is used for crossbreeding with another breed or species. Violators will have their membership suspended and will lose all membership privileges including registration, transfer of horses and any voting rights. The names of owners and horses will be placed on the suspended list. > >Recognizing that by its very nature, a breed association is dedicated to >preserving the breed, is there actually a formal policy about Fjord mules? >If >someone breeds them intentionally, can they be banned from the NFHR? Can a >mare be "unregistered?" Yes they can be unregistered. Mike > >Kate >with Joe and Della >**Feeling the pinch at the grocery store? Make dinner for $10 or >less. (http://food.aol.com/frugal-feasts?ncid=emlcntusfood0001) > >Important FjordHorse List Links: >Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e >FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw >Classified Ads: http://tinyurl.com/5b5g2f === Norwegian Fjord Horse Registry Mike May, Executive Director & Registrar PO Box 685 Webster, NY 14580-0685 Voice 585-872-4114 FAX 585-787-0497 http://www.nfhr.com mailto:regist...@nfhr.com Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw Classified Ads: http://tinyurl.com/5b5g2f
Fjord mules
This message is from: Robin Churchill There is a website fjordmules.com. They are very cute but whoever made the website doesn't proofread well. You can also pull up the Rural heritage photo if you search fjord mules. Robin where it is hot and muggy but cold front coming tonite. Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw Classified Ads: http://tinyurl.com/5b5g2f
RE: Fjord Mules
This message is from: "Teressa" Well, my neighbor has a bunch of em. He was breeding them for a good tempered mule for a pack animal. Hasn't worked out so well, he says. They all look the same but temperament is quite variable. Some like a fjord, most like a donkey. But the fjord look is persistent - only long ears, big wither stripes and teeny donkey feet. Teressa -Original Message- From: owner-fjordho...@angus.mystery.com [mailto:owner-fjordho...@angus.mystery.com] On Behalf Of Cherie Mascis Sent: Sunday, April 05, 2009 8:04 PM To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com Subject: Re: Fjord Mules This message is from: "Cherie Mascis" >If someone breeds them intentionally, can they be >banned from the NFHR? >Can a > mare be "unregistered?" Good question, I heard that too. If true, seems silly when a mule can't be bred and most other registrations that don't allow crossbreeding between different horse breeds allow or, at least ignore the making of mules. I would love a Fjord mule (I saw that same Rural Heritage photo). Cherie Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw Classified Ads: http://tinyurl.com/5b5g2f Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw Classified Ads: http://tinyurl.com/5b5g2f
Re: Fjord Mules
This message is from: "Cherie Mascis" If someone breeds them intentionally, can they be >banned from the NFHR? Can a mare be "unregistered?" Good question, I heard that too. If true, seems silly when a mule can't be bred and most other registrations that don't allow crossbreeding between different horse breeds allow or, at least ignore the making of mules. I would love a Fjord mule (I saw that same Rural Heritage photo). Cherie Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw Classified Ads: http://tinyurl.com/5b5g2f
Fjord Mules
This message is from: katesei...@aol.com I love Fjords. I love mules. And I have secretly thought that a Fjord mule would be an amazing work, trail or pack animal. I recently ran across a photo of a Fjord mule on the Rural Heritage site, and did a little internet research on them. I was a little dismayed to run across some disparaging remarks about the NFHR as it pertains to this subject, so thought I'd ask here to clarify before jumping to a defense. Recognizing that by its very nature, a breed association is dedicated to preserving the breed, is there actually a formal policy about Fjord mules? If someone breeds them intentionally, can they be banned from the NFHR? Can a mare be "unregistered?" Kate with Joe and Della **Feeling the pinch at the grocery store? Make dinner for $10 or less. (http://food.aol.com/frugal-feasts?ncid=emlcntusfood0001) Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw Classified Ads: http://tinyurl.com/5b5g2f
Re: Fjords-----------mules
This message is from: Sarah and Mike Stacy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> I do a lot of packing with my fjords in the mountains here and I've had other packers tell me that my horses are so impressive that I don't need mules. I have seen a few fjord mules around. I'd prefer not to discuss the subject on this list, but you can email me privately for more info. I prefer larger horses too, but I've noticed that my smaller fjords keep up just fine and travel over big logs and rough terrain just as easily as larger horses, and they can carry just as much weight. And they sure are easier to get a pack onto! I think a fjord mule would be just right. Sarah Soldotna, Alaska - Original Message - Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 20:10:48 -0800 From: "jerrell friz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Fjords---mules This message is from: "jerrell friz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Hi List, It finally stopped raining here. I guess I will have to drive in the mud tomorrow. I always get a chuckle when someone says their horse is like a mule, stubborn. To train a mule one has to be smarter than the animal. I believe that mules have the ability to question/ analyze the problem. That is, if a predator is after them, they might turn and fight the animal, much like a moose would. Mules, have a different movement, usually smoother and, more natural balance. Packers usually prefer mules over horses, because the loads ride better. Also, they usually walk a little faster than a horse. Years ago I heard that someone was breeding Fjord mules in Western Montana. I tried to locate them but was not able to. I wanted to buy one. I still would consider buying one. So, if anyone knows of a Fjord mule I might be interested. The main problem that I see would be their smaller size. I prefer a Percheron mule 16-17 hands. Regards, Jerry Friz, Anderson, Ca The FjordHorse List archives can be found at: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw
Re: Fjords-----------mules
This message is from: wendee berman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> We're just drying out in S. California but expecting another rain storm this weekend. I don't know who decides to let it rain on the weekends, much nicer to sit in a cozy cubicle at work and watch the rain than be trapped in the house when I could be out riding on the weekend. I've now had my Fjord for a year. I'm a mule owner going back a number years. I wouldn't say that my Fjord is as stubborn as my mule. The mule, as Jerrell mentions, is not stubborn, just likes to negotiate/question everything. If I ask her to go down the hill, she'll reply "why" and when I tell her, she agrees, as long as we go down on the right side of the trail inside of the left. Of course, the "right" side is usually the RIGHT side and she gets me carefully where I'm going. The fjord has learned a lot from the mule. He now questions going down the hill, but when I explain why, he goes down the way I choose, instead of the way he chooses. He is not as sure footed as the mule, but in comaprison to the other horses I've owned, he surpasses them by miles. He's not the herd boss in the pasture, but out on the trail, he insists that everyone follow him at his speed, and at a distance where he can see. If a follower gets too far behind, he'll wait and no amount of cajoling can encourage him forward. (Not really stubborn, but definitely asserting his place as ruler of the trail.) He also refuses to let you mount him until you've taken up the cinch one last time, something I swear he learned from watching the mule. Bottom line, he is the smartest horse I've ever owned, also the most personable. He's much more of a clown and comic than the mule, but that could be the difference between a gelding and mare. He's more affectionate to strangers, but the mule is more bonded to me. I keep saying that someday I'll get just a plain ol mutt of a horse who does everything I ask but that would take a whole lotta fun out of owning a horse. Right now I wouldn't trade either of them. Wendee jerrell friz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: This message is from: "jerrell friz" Hi List, It finally stopped raining here. I guess I will have to drive in the mud tomorrow. I always get a chuckle when someone says their horse is like a mule, stubborn. To train a mule one has to be smarter than the animal. I believe that mules have the ability to question/ analyze the problem. That is, if a predator is after them, they might turn and fight the animal, much like a moose would. Mules, have a different movement, usually smoother and, more natural balance. Packers usually prefer mules over horses, because the loads ride better. Also, they usually walk a little faster than a horse. Years ago I heard that someone was breeding Fjord mules in Western Montana. I tried to locate them but was not able to. I wanted to buy one. I still would consider buying one. So, if anyone knows of a Fjord mule I might be interested. The main problem that I see would be their smaller size. I prefer a Percheron mule 16-17 hands. Regards, Jerry Friz, Anderson, Ca " The world is a dangerous place to live, not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it " Albert Einstein For your security this Message has been checked for Viruses as a courtesy of Com-Pair Services! The FjordHorse List archives can be found at: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw - Have a burning question? Go to Yahoo! Answers and get answers from real people who know. The FjordHorse List archives can be found at: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw
Re: Fjords-----------mules
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] undefined The FjordHorse List archives can be found at: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw
Fjords-----------mules
This message is from: "jerrell friz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Hi List, It finally stopped raining here. I guess I will have to drive in the mud tomorrow. I always get a chuckle when someone says their horse is like a mule, stubborn. To train a mule one has to be smarter than the animal. I believe that mules have the ability to question/ analyze the problem. That is, if a predator is after them, they might turn and fight the animal, much like a moose would. Mules, have a different movement, usually smoother and, more natural balance. Packers usually prefer mules over horses, because the loads ride better. Also, they usually walk a little faster than a horse. Years ago I heard that someone was breeding Fjord mules in Western Montana. I tried to locate them but was not able to. I wanted to buy one. I still would consider buying one. So, if anyone knows of a Fjord mule I might be interested. The main problem that I see would be their smaller size. I prefer a Percheron mule 16-17 hands. Regards, Jerry Friz, Anderson, Ca " The world is a dangerous place to live, not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it " Albert Einstein For your security this Message has been checked for Viruses as a courtesy of Com-Pair Services! The FjordHorse List archives can be found at: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw
mules and fjords are similar - good
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] undefined The FjordHorse List archives can be found at: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw
Re: Fjords, Mules and Cantering....
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] we understand your frustration, but this can be done! even with the drafty-est Fjord! We have found that doing a lot of transition work is the key, as well as lunge work...we ride at a large lesson/boarding barn, altho we have our boys BHF Bjorn & BHF Olaf at home here with us...(these guys love to canter in a free lunge too), we are the odd Fjord owners among TB's, Arabains, Andulusians, la de dah, But just getting them into one step of a canter, then praise-praise-praise, let them come down to a nice working trot, and then try it again, I think that the circle aids are the key, once they know that they are safe in consistant circling - bending- they build confidence. They have such a thick, strong neck, ...once they learn that they can still be balanced while bending, wow, it opens up a whole new world. And they will work from the rear then too. They seem to want to pull from the front, rather than have impulsion from the rear, altho that may be true of any young horse, ! they ne ed to learn this behavior, and a great coach doesn't hurt!!! We live in the Northeast, and do a lot of showing, we are always the only Fjords represented at the shows, one of the last 2-phase shows we were at, up near Boston, I overheard a middle aged rider with her coach, standing behind my son Paddy & I as he was waiting to go in for the stadium jumping portion (already got a first in Training level, Bjorn does a sweet 20 meter canter circle!) and the coaches student said 'maybe I won't get that Quarter horse, I really like the looks of that Fjord'...and the coach said ' Oh, you don't want a Fjord, they are too stubborn' - and I turned around and said, ' Yep, maybe they are stubborn, but when you, as a rider, get something out of a Fjord, then you know that you are a really great rider' ...nuff saidgotta love this breed, they are awesome and bring out the best in us as riders!! best to you, Denise -- Original message -- From: "lgp33" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > This message is from: "lgp33" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > As a new Fjord owner this is my first posting on this site. I have a > comment and a question. > > I am a mule owner (I ride and pack my mules) and until I got my Fjord I > would have argued the superiority of mules over any horse! For me, the > Fjord is the first horse I've encountered that matches up to my mules' > abilities, strength, sure-footedness and intelligence - sorry if this > offends the Fjord purists!. So, I was interested to see the debate > following the Horse Illustrated article. > > My question is, how DO I get my Fjord to canter? Bror is nine years old and > will only trot at very high speed (he hadn't been ridden much before I got > him). I've tried round-penning him and tried riding him into a canter but > with very limited success - I'm working at it every day. Will he get it > eventually? Any suggestions? > > Thanks, > > Linda Patorni > > _ > > Linda Patorni > High Mesa Ranch > 794 Ojo de la Vaca > Santa Fe, NM 87508 > > The FjordHorse List archives can be found at: > http://tinyurl.com/rcepw The FjordHorse List archives can be found at: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw
Re: Fjords, Mules and Cantering....
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In a message dated 11/24/2006 8:33:53 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: For me, the Fjord is the first horse I've encountered that matches up to my mules' abilities, strength, sure-footedness and intelligence Welcome Linda! Funny, I recently had the opposite conclusion -- the mule is the only equine that can keep up with my Fjords :-). Several months ago I moved to a boarding facility owned by a "mule man" and had my first experience with the critters. They are smart, freakishly strong, great on the trail, and they get along with the Fjords! As far as getting your Fjord to canter, a nice long trail works for mine. Riding with other cantering horses helps, and if all else fails, ask for it on the way home :-). Yes, the Fjords can trot faster than other horses can canter. When mine offer this, I say, yes, that's nice, but I need something else. / )_~ /L/L Brigid Wasson SF Bay Area, CA www.eponahorsemanship.com The FjordHorse List archives can be found at: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw
Re: Fjords, Mules and Cantering
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In a message dated 11/24/2006 4:52:10 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: My question is, how DO I get my Fjord to canter? Bror is nine years old and will only trot at very high speed (he hadn't been ridden much before I got him). I've tried round-penning him and tried riding him into a canter but with very limited success - I'm working at it every day. Will he get it eventually? I guess I did not take exception to anything Mike had to say (although I have not read the article), because he has described *my* fjord perfectly, and I find him to be a perfect horse. Granted, I am not a breeder trying to sell horses, but I also don't believe in trying to market where a breed is headed as opposed to what a majority of the breed is. And I have heard more than one trainer compare fjords to mules, talking about their intelligence and the fact that they learn so quickly they will get bored with repetition and try to change things up. Anyway, I also agree with Mike that at least for my Fjord, the canter is not a comfortably occurring gait. He does not canter in pasture - he trots and gallops. He *can* canter, and we are working on that. I spent a series of days doing ground work and asking for one, then two, then more steps of the canter, rewarding him each time with a release. Once he got better, I rewarded with a bit of carrot and he got much better . Under saddle, we just keep urging him faster at the trot, and he will eventually say "I can't trot any faster" and break into a canter. Our new goal is to lengthen the amount of time he will stay in the canter. I can only keep him in for the length of our arena. My trainer can keep him cantering for much, much longer. And I happily acknowledge there are many fjords out there who do *not* have the same aversion to cantering my Fjord does. Kate and Joe (who mentioned today that if I used that crop one more time to urge him faster he was going to buck...) The FjordHorse List archives can be found at: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw
Fjords, Mules and Cantering....
This message is from: "lgp33" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> As a new Fjord owner this is my first posting on this site. I have a comment and a question. I am a mule owner (I ride and pack my mules) and until I got my Fjord I would have argued the superiority of mules over any horse! For me, the Fjord is the first horse I've encountered that matches up to my mules' abilities, strength, sure-footedness and intelligence - sorry if this offends the Fjord purists!. So, I was interested to see the debate following the Horse Illustrated article. My question is, how DO I get my Fjord to canter? Bror is nine years old and will only trot at very high speed (he hadn't been ridden much before I got him). I've tried round-penning him and tried riding him into a canter but with very limited success - I'm working at it every day. Will he get it eventually? Any suggestions? Thanks, Linda Patorni _ Linda Patorni High Mesa Ranch 794 Ojo de la Vaca Santa Fe, NM 87508 The FjordHorse List archives can be found at: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw
Fjords vs. Morgans, Mules, Calling, Old horse
This message is from: "Linda Lehnert" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> It's hard for me to comment about Fjords being herd bound since Ricka is my first. However, I have had no problem getting her away from her buddies - she lives in a large pasture with other mares of all ages and a couple of light colored foals she thinks are Fjord foals. Sometimes she seems more reluctant to leave a good patch of´grass than the other horses. She has lived in a pasture all of her life during the spring, summer and fall months, so she is accustomed to this. We never had a problem with the Morgans being herd bound, except that Bo was reluctant to get too far away from his wife, Felicity. If human couples were as attached as these two, divorce lawyers would all be out of business. However, Bo is well-trained and responsive, so he would do what I asked. Occasionally he would call to her in the manner of a stallion, but a small correction and he immediately shut up and got back to business. I agree with Vivian about the calling. Stallions are wont to announce their presence, but a well-trained stallion will respond like Bo did. My parents were born on farms in 1904 and my father said his family always had 5-6 horses and mules for farm work and transportation. His father liked the mules better for work because they could handle the Texas heat better. My fáther told me that mules have the reputation of being stubborn because they have a natural self-preservative instinct from their donkey parent. You can work a horse to death because he is willing, but a mule will quit when he thinks he's had enough and nothing can make him do more. This is why mules have the reputation of being so stubborn. This is a cute story about an old horse from Celia Clarke of the UK from Eurohorse: I was judging a dressage competition...and a horse came in to do its test. After a few minutes, it was obvious that it was un- level, not lame, but rather stiff behind, but not so fad as to make it stop the test, especially as it was one of the few forward that appeared to have any notion about how to work on the bit, so would probably be in the money at the end of its class despite its problems. Anyway, at the end of the test I said to the rider that I thought her horse wasn't quite right behind and perhaps she should have it looked at. She replied that it was alright as the horse was only 6 years old. My writer, an elderly retired vet, gasped audibly and said 'ONLY 6?" obviously wondering what it would be like by the time it reached 10 years old. "no, not only 6" said the rider, "26", adding they thought she would like a day out at a competition for a change. I ended up writing...that I hoped I would be as fit and athletic as her horse when I reached 100 (her human equivalent)... Linda in Reichelsheim Join the worlds largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. Click Here
RE: manes, mules, Turlock
This message is from: "Cindy Vallecillo" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Hi Carole, Oh well, here I go again. Once you start me up You need to go to the Pre-Eval Clinic that Karen McCarthy is having at her ranch in Carson City, NV on July 7th and 8th. There is going to be a mane trimming demo!!! I am getting way too excited about all this! Cindy Vallecillo The Cove, San Bruno, California -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, May 11, 2001 6:00 AM To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com Subject: manes, mules, Turlock This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Ok, so when I get desperate I will take off my mule's mane to start over, but otherwise, just like the Fjord, she gets her mane trimmed into a nice arch! No, I do NOT keep it roached!!! YUK!! It is a bit shorter than the Fjord's, though. I am taking my gelding, Nattmann, to Turlock. Besides wanting to have some idea on my own as to how "typically Fjordy" he is, it helps the breeder to know that they are on the right track, too, with their breeding program. So, it isn't as much of a futile effort to take a gelding to an evaluation as one might think, but can be very constructive for both the owner and the breeder! But, how could any breeder go wrong with these cuties??!!! So, there's my thought on the subjectand "GOOD!" for all you bringing geldings!!! Back to manesthe white is gone in the middle of Nattmann's mane.oops, oh well! So, I am supposed to evenly clip the white 1/4" below the black, and have it look GOOD??!?! So far my efforts are definitely sub par! Anyone in Turlock doing manes for those of us that are scissor/mane challenged so that we may present our Fjords to their best advantage in the evaluation and for the show!??!?!??!?!? (We at least can do the halter class). Carole Sweet Modesto, CA
manes, mules, Turlock
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Ok, so when I get desperate I will take off my mule's mane to start over, but otherwise, just like the Fjord, she gets her mane trimmed into a nice arch! No, I do NOT keep it roached!!! YUK!! It is a bit shorter than the Fjord's, though. I am taking my gelding, Nattmann, to Turlock. Besides wanting to have some idea on my own as to how "typically Fjordy" he is, it helps the breeder to know that they are on the right track, too, with their breeding program. So, it isn't as much of a futile effort to take a gelding to an evaluation as one might think, but can be very constructive for both the owner and the breeder! But, how could any breeder go wrong with these cuties??!!! So, there's my thought on the subjectand "GOOD!" for all you bringing geldings!!! Back to manesthe white is gone in the middle of Nattmann's mane.oops, oh well! So, I am supposed to evenly clip the white 1/4" below the black, and have it look GOOD??!?! So far my efforts are definitely sub par! Anyone in Turlock doing manes for those of us that are scissor/mane challenged so that we may present our Fjords to their best advantage in the evaluation and for the show!??!?!??!?!? (We at least can do the halter class). Carole Sweet Modesto, CA
Re: mules
This message is from: "linda hickam" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> darn.oh well -- >From: "Mike May, Registrar NFHR" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com >Subject: Re: mules >Date: Sat, Mar 17, 2001, 6:47 PM > >This message is from: "Mike May, Registrar NFHR" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >At 09:36 PM 3/16/01 -0500, you wrote: >>This message is from: "John Bosomworth" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> >>Gail said <>and also >>sterile.>> Breeding for a mule would be allowed since you would be >>breeding a fjord mare with a donkey stud. >>To get a hinny you would have to use a fjord stallion on a donkey mare. >> Is this really crossbreeding or creating a new species? >> >>Fjordally yours, Eunice > >If your talking about the NFHR Eunice it IS NOT LEGAL. Here is our rule: > >B. Inbred horses foaled after January 1986 can not be >registered. This includes: mother to son, father to daughter, brother to >sister and half-brother to half-sister. > >C. In the interest of protecting the genetic purity and the highest >standards of the Fjord horse, we will withdraw from the Norwegian Fjord >Horse Registry any mare or stallion that is used for crossbreeding with >another breed or species. Violators will have their membership suspended >and will lose all membership privileges including registration, transfer of >horses and any voting rights. The names of owners and horses will be >placed on the suspended list. > > > >Shop online without a credit card >http://www.rocketcash.com >RocketCash, a NetZero subsidiary
Re: mules
This message is from: "Mike May, Registrar NFHR" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> At 09:36 PM 3/16/01 -0500, you wrote: This message is from: "John Bosomworth" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Gail said <> Breeding for a mule would be allowed since you would be breeding a fjord mare with a donkey stud. To get a hinny you would have to use a fjord stallion on a donkey mare. Is this really crossbreeding or creating a new species? Fjordally yours, Eunice If your talking about the NFHR Eunice it IS NOT LEGAL. Here is our rule: B. Inbred horses foaled after January 1986 can not be registered. This includes: mother to son, father to daughter, brother to sister and half-brother to half-sister. C. In the interest of protecting the genetic purity and the highest standards of the Fjord horse, we will withdraw from the Norwegian Fjord Horse Registry any mare or stallion that is used for crossbreeding with another breed or species. Violators will have their membership suspended and will lose all membership privileges including registration, transfer of horses and any voting rights. The names of owners and horses will be placed on the suspended list. Shop online without a credit card http://www.rocketcash.com RocketCash, a NetZero subsidiary
Re: mules
This message is from: "Mike May, Registrar NFHR" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> At 10:24 PM 3/16/01 -0500, you wrote: This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hello everyone, << Breeding for a mule would be allowed since you would be breeding a fjord mare with a donkey stud. To get a hinny you would have to use a fjord stallion on a donkey mare. Is this really crossbreeding or creating a new species? >> To the best of my knowledge, crossbreeding is not allowed, period, within the NFHR guidelines, regardless if using a mare or a stallion, or to a subspecies or another horse breed. Please correct me if I am wrong! You are correct Lynda. Mike Shop online without a credit card http://www.rocketcash.com RocketCash, a NetZero subsidiary
Re: mules
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hello everyone, << Breeding for a mule would be allowed since you would be breeding a fjord mare with a donkey stud. To get a hinny you would have to use a fjord stallion on a donkey mare. Is this really crossbreeding or creating a new species? >> To the best of my knowledge, crossbreeding is not allowed, period, within the NFHR guidelines, regardless if using a mare or a stallion, or to a subspecies or another horse breed. Please correct me if I am wrong! Lynda Lynda and Daniel Bailey's Norwegian Fjord Horse Farm White Cloud, MI 231.689.9902 http://hometown.aol.com/heithingi/BaileysNorwegianFjords.html
mules
This message is from: "John Bosomworth" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Gail said <> Breeding for a mule would be allowed since you would be breeding a fjord mare with a donkey stud. To get a hinny you would have to use a fjord stallion on a donkey mare. Is this really crossbreeding or creating a new species? Fjordally yours, Eunice[EMAIL PROTECTED] `` John & Eunice Bosomworth Deere Country Fjords Ayton, Ontario, CANADA `
Re: Mules, etc
This message is from: "Teressa Kandianis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Very true. I hear so much about the importance of routine from reading horse books and watching videos but it seems the fjords training emphasizes change instead so they don't get bored. We've totally changed our fjord's schedules this past two or three weeks and it seems it doesn't matter how we change it, within a couple of days, the pair of them adapt and start to anticipate my moves. And they don't have clocks either. And the change doesn't seem to make them the slightest bit unhappy - Teressa K. in NW Washington
Mules, etc
This message is from: "Knutsen Fjord Farm" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Hi all - I lost a sale once by mentioning that Fjords could be similar to mules in their reactions to training, and were very smart. The lady feared that a Fjord would be "too smart" for her. Oh well, it was probably for the best, since that relationship would have started out with some psychological obstacles to overcome. When folks ask, as they often do, "Aren't Fjords stubborn?", I substitute the adjectives self-confident and determined. I believe that whatever is being asked of a Fjord has to make sense to the horse. Earthquake update - the lights in our barn were acting funny, seemingly deciding on their own whether to brighten, dim, or go off. Evidently our ground shook enough to nick one of the underground lines bringing power into the barn. Will get it sleuthed tomorrow. Sadie comes home from the trainer's tomorrow for her last month of "lying in." Every day I will say "sweet little grey filly" over and over as I pat her tummy and groom her. I imagine we will either get a baby that feels very welcomed or quite neurotic. Hope Sadie doesn't decide to foal on the date of the Pre-Evaluation clinic in Spokane, April 7. I don't want to miss it. Erlend will stay at Kelley's except for his trips home to do his husbandly duty to the brand new phantom mare - grey, naturally. Doug is doing his husbandly duty and building it/her. I think "Flossie" would be a good name for her. Dennis Johnson failed to come up with anything even remotely appropriate in Norwegian, so we are on our own We're madly trying to get all the loose ends tied up before we go to Norway, and now are wondering whether any livestock [a lovely Norwegian Fjord filly, for example] will be allowed to leave Europe. We might have to settle for a Volvo instead, but it wouldn't be the same. [Just kidding - who can afford a new Volvo...?] Welcome to the lurkers who are finally coming out. Come on in, the chatter's fine! And be sure to visit all the web sites, they are getting better all the time. We have kidnapped a teenager in the area who knows how to create animation on Pagemaker, so look for that soon on our site. Bye for now, Peg Knutsen - Ellensburg, WA http://www.eburg.com/~kffjord/
Re: mules
This message is from: Jean Ernest <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> This was posted on the CD-L yesterday: "I've been looking for a driving mule for some time now and finally found one. She is a 9 month old Fjord cross molly mule, she had never been off the farm and the owner hadn't done much with her but she walked right into the horse trailer, rode home quietly. She made freinds with my arab right off and decided to chase the chickens out of the paddlock for fun, tryed to stomp my dogs. I can't belive how well she settle in and how brave she is. She loves head and butt rubs and is the first one to the gate when I go to the barn. So you can see how thrilled I'm with this little mule. Inamed her "Driving Miss Daisy" Daisy for short." --- I too think mules should be permitted, as it will not harm the fjord breed, they are sterile and obviously can not be mistaken for purebred Fjords. AND they do seem to turn out well. Jean in Sunny and warm Fairbanks, Alaska, +35-40 today! >I think mules should be permitted since they're obviously mules and also >sterile. >Gail Dorine >Las Cruces, NM > > > Jean Ernest Fairbanks, Alaska mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: mules
This message is from: "linda hickam" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> that would be GREAT!! -- >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com >Subject: Re: mules >Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001, 2:27 PM > >> the 'regular' mule. 'Nuff said. >> >I think mules should be permitted since they're obviously mules and also >sterile.
Re: mules
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In a message dated 3/14/01 10:56:03 AM Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > They were truly lovely to look at, were > obviously MULES, and seemed a bit better tempered than > the 'regular' mule. 'Nuff said. > I think mules should be permitted since they're obviously mules and also sterile. Gail Dorine Las Cruces, NM
Re: Mules (Fjules)
This message is from: Debby Stai <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Well I'm from Texas and its not me breeding my Amber with a Zebra. I do know of someone close to San Antonio that has a few zebras, could it be them? I remember them telling me that their zebras were quite aggressive and would attack people. Why would someone want to have them much less breed them if they are that way? Debby [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > In a message dated 3/24/00 10:31:44 AM Eastern Standard Time, > [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > > << >I was thinking of double registering my mare by adding her to NFHR (in > >addition to the CFHA), but I wouldn't want to have her papers pulled, and > >myself evicted from the group if I ever decided to have a mule by her. > >Maybe this part of the rule needs to be re-evaluated if it's not > >objectionable to the majority of members. > > This part of the rule was just recently added actually. So I don't think > re-evaluating it is necessary. > >> > This part of the rule was added after I asked the group reaction to someone I > know in the great state of Texas (home of our next President) crossing a > Fjord with a zebra. Merek
Re: Mules (Fjules)
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In a message dated 3/24/00 10:31:44 AM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: << >I was thinking of double registering my mare by adding her to NFHR (in >addition to the CFHA), but I wouldn't want to have her papers pulled, and >myself evicted from the group if I ever decided to have a mule by her. >Maybe this part of the rule needs to be re-evaluated if it's not >objectionable to the majority of members. This part of the rule was just recently added actually. So I don't think re-evaluating it is necessary. >> This part of the rule was added after I asked the group reaction to someone I know in the great state of Texas (home of our next President) crossing a Fjord with a zebra. Merek
Re: Mules (Fjules)
This message is from: "Mike May, Registrar NFHR" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> At 02:38 PM 3/23/00 -0800, you wrote: This message is from: Lori Puster <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Am I reading the rule NFHR wrong? Because it seems to sanction mule breeding as well as horse crosses. No your reading skills seem to be just fine. Cross Breeding to another species is also against the rules. I was thinking of double registering my mare by adding her to NFHR (in addition to the CFHA), but I wouldn't want to have her papers pulled, and myself evicted from the group if I ever decided to have a mule by her. Maybe this part of the rule needs to be re-evaluated if it's not objectionable to the majority of members. This part of the rule was just recently added actually. So I don't think re-evaluating it is necessary. A good debate makes everybody wiser, if only because you have to understand your position better, delve into you reasoning a little further, in order to explain it to someone who doesn't understand the first time. Very true. This has been a very good debate on the subject. Mike === Norwegian Fjord Horse Registry Mike May, Registrar Voice 716-872-4114 FAX 716-787-0497 http://www.nfhr.com mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Mules (Fjules)
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] The "no mule" designation was added just a little over a year ago. Maybe one of the listers who has been here for a while saved that thread? When we switched list sponsers I'm sure the Archives were deleted, if there were any. Kate in CT mom to Baldur
Mules (Fjules)
This message is from: Lori Puster <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Thanks to Linda for the "Fjule" designation. :) Several people have now chimed in, publicly and privately, on the side of mules being allowed. Am I reading the rule NFHR wrong? Because it seems to sanction mule breeding as well as horse crosses. I was thinking of double registering my mare by adding her to NFHR (in addition to the CFHA), but I wouldn't want to have her papers pulled, and myself evicted from the group if I ever decided to have a mule by her. Maybe this part of the rule needs to be re-evaluated if it's not objectionable to the majority of members. As for the controversy being divisive--it's only divisive if people are solely invested in being "right" or are incapable of learning from each other. I think better of this list's members than that. I'm sure we're capable of weathering this controversy, and the next, and the one after that as well. We might even make some changes for the better as a result. A good debate makes everybody wiser, if only because you have to understand your position better, delve into you reasoning a little further, in order to explain it to someone who doesn't understand the first time. Lori Puster MoonWise Farm Veneta, OR
Re: mules
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] I don't see a problem with mules for your personal use, because mules can't breed, and they look like mules. I think stallions should be sold carefully only to people who are screened by the seller and everything else gelded. It's like in purebred dogs, responsible breeders try to keep puppy farms from getting ahold of unneutered stock. Otherwise the animals do suffer horribly and lots of poor examples of the breed come along. The screening won't be 100% effective but it helps a lot. I'll bet most of you screen pretty carefully now. Gail-Dorine
Re: Mules/Fjords
This message is from: Kathy Spiegel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Steve McIlree wrote: > This message is from: Steve McIlree <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > A comment on the Fjord/Mule discussion that recently has been > happening on the list. I find myself very persuaded by the argument > that mules have something to offer of greater value than horses or > donkeys alone can. But when you look at the attributes that are most > often put forward by mule fans; intelligent, sure-footed, easy > keeper, strong; you find you already have them in the Fjord horse as > well as a willingness to work that is often not associated with > mules. > > -- > Steve McIlree -- Pferd & Skipper -- Omaha, Nebraska, USA > The hooves of the horses!--Oh! bewitching and sweet; Is the > music earth steals from the iron-shod feet. -- Will H Ogilvie You are exactly right- which is why my interest in Fjords even though I like mules. However, Fjords are not as easily available ( price being the same ) as mules in many parts of the country. Until I started seriously looking for stock through the internet and the NFHregistry list of breeders, I had only ever seen one team of Fjords and it was this team that piqued my interest. It was a couple of years ago at the Eastern Idaho State Fair and I believe they were from Sandpoint and competed in the driving competition held the first night of the fair. So for those of you who take the time and energy to show at these - thank you - if well done, it really helps to promote the breed. Kathy
Mules/Fjords
This message is from: Steve McIlree <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> A comment on the Fjord/Mule discussion that recently has been happening on the list. I find myself very persuaded by the argument that mules have something to offer of greater value than horses or donkeys alone can. But when you look at the attributes that are most often put forward by mule fans; intelligent, sure-footed, easy keeper, strong; you find you already have them in the Fjord horse as well as a willingness to work that is often not associated with mules. -- Steve McIlree -- Pferd & Skipper -- Omaha, Nebraska, USA The hooves of the horses!--Oh! bewitching and sweet; Is the music earth steals from the iron-shod feet. -- Will H Ogilvie
Re: mules
This message is from: "Jean Gayle" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Thanks Saskia, nice thoughts. Jean Jean Gayle Aberdeen, WA [Authoress of "The Colonel's Daughter" Occupied Germany 1946 TO 1949 ] http://www.techline.com/~jgayle Barnes & Noble Book Stores
Re: mules
This message is from: "saskia schoofs" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Jean, > Some horse friends stopped by to > visit for the first time since Gunnar. Of course he looks like a yak > (crossbred?) at this cold time but they also remarked "You know he reminds > me of a uh a duh" I chimed in and asked if they meant a donkey. Yes they > did and he does, best breeding and all. Jean Reading this, I felt like reading a paragraph from P.G. "Plummie" Wodehouse's books, he's one of my favourite authors. Brilliantly funny! hugs to the "unfriendly one" & happy fjording! Saskia
Re: Kathy's comments about mules
This message is from: Kathy Spiegel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> joel harman wrote: > This message is from: joel harman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Stated very eloquently but I doubt you will change many minds here. Mine > doesn't need changing. I have a great respect for mules. Wish I was smart > enough to work them. > > Just curious where is your part of the country? > > The draft horse show in Sandpoint ID will not allow fjords there because > pound for pound they outpull the big boys. > > When I'm allowed to go to draft horse shows I just tell all the teamsters I > may have to use 3 where they only use 2 but my 3 still eat less than their > 2. > > Once they see the fjords pull I'm accepted. I enjoy talking to the teamsters > cause lots of them are older than dirt & have alot to teach me which I am > interested in learning. > > That is what keeps me going back to the Pendleton Round Up Parade year after > year. After the parade all the teamsters sit around & tell lies. It is also > exciting to be in a parade with about 500 other horses being ridden as well > as driven. There are some well maintained old buggys & carriages owned by > the Round Up association that are used in the parade. They feed your horses > & pay you to pull one of their vehicles. > > Not that anybody cares but I would much rather see discussions about equine > related issues than baby pictures. Not everyone agrees. But that is what > makes the world interesting - isn't it? > > Thanks again for the comments on crossbreeding without editorial comment. > > Bye > > Joel Harman My part of the country is the farthest southeaast corner of Idaho. I work in Pocatello but live about 30 miles south. I would love to see some Fjords here and although mules are nice and I plan to use mine for packing and driving, it is hard to beat a nice Fjord in front of a buggy or sleigh for sheer beauty and balance. The Pendelton thing sounds intriguing. A friend and I have restored a circa 1900 buggy and just acquired another military buggy which does not require restoring. For those in the west who like horse drawn vehicles and tack there is a sale in Rock Springs Wyoming every November. It goes for three days and this year there were over a hundred vehicles - antique and modern- ranging from authentic military wagons, original Albany sleighs to brand new competition and pleasure vehicles and antique hearses and oil wagons. Prices from a few dollars for parters to $10,000 for some of the antiques. A good place to find parts, old or new and harnesses. Like any auction sale it is buyer be ware. They also auction draft horses, mules and teams. Kathy
Kathy's comments about mules
This message is from: joel harman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Stated very eloquently but I doubt you will change many minds here. Mine doesn't need changing. I have a great respect for mules. Wish I was smart enough to work them. Just curious where is your part of the country? The draft horse show in Sandpoint ID will not allow fjords there because pound for pound they outpull the big boys. When I'm allowed to go to draft horse shows I just tell all the teamsters I may have to use 3 where they only use 2 but my 3 still eat less than their 2. Once they see the fjords pull I'm accepted. I enjoy talking to the teamsters cause lots of them are older than dirt & have alot to teach me which I am interested in learning. That is what keeps me going back to the Pendleton Round Up Parade year after year. After the parade all the teamsters sit around & tell lies. It is also exciting to be in a parade with about 500 other horses being ridden as well as driven. There are some well maintained old buggys & carriages owned by the Round Up association that are used in the parade. They feed your horses & pay you to pull one of their vehicles. Not that anybody cares but I would much rather see discussions about equine related issues than baby pictures. Not everyone agrees. But that is what makes the world interesting - isn't it? Thanks again for the comments on crossbreeding without editorial comment. Bye Joel Harman
Re: mules
This message is from: Jen Timm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> oops! I forgot I had two URLs down there... Here's the direct link to the Zefjord: http://www.angelfire.com/wa/willows/images/JegElskerDig.jpg (she's supposed to be a yearling filly!) Jen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > Most excellent! I did not get to the ze-Fjord picture successfully, and WHAT > is that annoying bar at the top I have to click off each time? But I did > bookmark the page about Jansky and radio astronomy as a definite return and > totally explore site. Merek > Jennifer E. Timm < [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.wpi.edu/~jetimm [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.angelfire.com/wa/willows/ "That is the exploration that awaits you! Not mapping stars and studying nebula, but charting the unknown possibilities of existence." --Q to Picard in ST:TNG's "All Good Things"
Re: mules
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In a message dated 1/31/00 11:10:38 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: << This message is from: Jen Timm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> There's a saying that mule people have (and this applies to the model equine variety as well) - mules can do anything a horse or pony can do, only better! Not just simply a cheaper alternative :) Back into lurker mode Jen P.S. If anyone wants to see a model equine "ze-fjord" please see my gallery - link is below... Just to give you an idea of what one might look like :) >> Most excellent! I did not get to the ze-Fjord picture successfully, and WHAT is that annoying bar at the top I have to click off each time? But I did bookmark the page about Jansky and radio astronomy as a definite return and totally explore site. Merek
Re: mules
This message is from: Jen Timm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> There's a saying that mule people have (and this applies to the model equine variety as well) - mules can do anything a horse or pony can do, only better! Not just simply a cheaper alternative :) Back into lurker mode Jen P.S. If anyone wants to see a model equine "ze-fjord" please see my gallery - link is below... Just to give you an idea of what one might look like :) > Jennifer E. Timm < [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.wpi.edu/~jetimm [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.angelfire.com/wa/willows/ "That is the exploration that awaits you! Not mapping stars and studying nebula, but charting the unknown possibilities of existence." --Q to Picard in ST:TNG's "All Good Things"
Re: mules and some comments on hybrids
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Kathy, in your post concerning cross breeding you stated that, "in nature, the barriers against crossbreeding are geographic I think this is exactly one of the strongest contributing forces that shaped the Fjord. With the Fjord, I believe you have to give special consideration to it's antiquity and preserve it's ancient beginnings. I know the Arab is an old breed, too, but I'm not sure which goes back further, the Fjord or the Arab. The point is, you are not dealing with a modern day horse like a quarter horse, etc. when it comes to cross breeding, you are custodians of a living piece of history.
Re: mules and some comments on hybrids
This message is from: Jean Ernest <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Thank you Kathy, for a very informative and understandable explaination of Cross breeding, hybrids and the effects, etc. I was thinkning of trying to express some of that, but you did it much better than I could ever had done. Jean in Fairbanks, Alaska At 12:55 PM 1/31/2000 -0700, you wrote: >This message is from: Kathy Spiegel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >Just couldn't resist two cents worth about mules. In this part of the country >a well bred mule is far more expensive than a well bred horse. I have bred a >few mules. The well bred, registered thoroughbred mare I use did not cost me >a whole lot more than the stud fee and shipping costs on the Jack. As soon as >the babies hit the ground I have offers in excess of many of the ads for >young or even started Fjords I have seen from the members on this list. The >mules are bred for specific reasons and perform better than either parent IN >SOME SITUATIONS and therefore there are compelling reasons to produce them. Jean Ernest Fairbanks, Alaska [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: mules and some comments on hybrids
This message is from: Kathy Spiegel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Just couldn't resist two cents worth about mules. In this part of the country a well bred mule is far more expensive than a well bred horse. I have bred a few mules. The well bred, registered thoroughbred mare I use did not cost me a whole lot more than the stud fee and shipping costs on the Jack. As soon as the babies hit the ground I have offers in excess of many of the ads for young or even started Fjords I have seen from the members on this list. The mules are bred for specific reasons and perform better than either parent IN SOME SITUATIONS and therefore there are compelling reasons to produce them.I see no cruelty to the mule just because it can't produce offspring. There are mules which have excelled in dressage, cutting competions, driving and just plain use. I am told that the reason the cow cutting competitions are now closed to mules is that a bunch of quarter horse owners got their noses bent out of shape when a mule by the name of RENO won the competion some years back - with no halter or bridle on. Just as with any breed ( recall the recent discussion about Fjord types and uses) there are applications which might benefit from prudent crossing of two species or two breeds. The mules and opposite crosses have been described in the wild where ranges of Donkeys and wild or feral horses overlap. Hybridization is one of natures tools in generating diversity. Not all hybrids are as sterile as the mule. There is a difference between hybidization ( crosses between different species) and crossbreeding ( crosses between different strains of the same species) All horses are members of the same species. All the breed registries are artificial. In nature the barriers against crossbreeding are geographic and behavioral and allow for the isolation of breeding populations and fixation of characteristics - probably one of the steps leading to the development of a species. In domestication we accelerate the process by breeding for characteristics and fixing a type. The danger in doing it under domestication is the loss of valuable genetic characteristics which might help the individual under changing environmental conditions or emerging diseases. Cross breeding, hybidizing and even gene insertions are methods by which animal and plant breeders reintroduce lost or introduce desirable genetic material into domesticated species. This opens an incredible can of worms and volatile opinions on all sides - re some of the hassels concerning international trade and shipments of genetically engineered crops across national boundaries. Animals kept in captivity, where wild stock is no longer available for outcrossing, are in danger of losing the ability to adapt and the concentrating deletorius genes in the breeding stock( see discussions of miniature horses - the lethal white in paint horses and the increased problems with kidding in dwarf goats). This is something that any registry needs to address when the gene pool is restricted and selection of breeding animals is based on humanly determined positive traits, rather than adaptively determined traits. It is one of which the NFHR appears to be aware and it may be a problem to be addressed in the future. Sorry this is so long but there are opinions on both sides. What each registry wants to do is up to its members and if an individual wants to play ball with that registry and reap the benefits, then the rules should be followed. But there may also be reasons to look at crossbreeding and even hybridization in certain situations. Kathy
Re: mules
This message is from: "Jean Gayle" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Mary, re your "looked like a mule" mare. Some horse friends stopped by to visit for the first time since Gunnar. Of course he looks like a yak (crossbred?) at this cold time but they also remarked "You know he reminds me of a uh a duh" I chimed in and asked if they meant a donkey. Yes they did and he does, best breeding and all. Jean Jean Gayle Aberdeen, WA [Authoress of "The Colonel's Daughter" Occupied Germany 1946 TO 1949 ] http://www.techline.com/~jgayle Barnes & Noble Book Stores
Re: mules
This message is from: Mike May <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> At 07:25 AM 1/31/00 -0800, you wrote: This message is from: Mary Thurman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Think about it - why would anyone want to use an inferior(poorly bred) animal if he could use the best? I couldn't agree more. The answer is that they often must settle for less than the best because they simply cannot afford the best. It really doesn't matter how much the horse costs Mary. It will still end up being the cheapest part of the whole equation. I laughed at the guy that told me that before I actually wrote the check for our Fjord. But I stopped laughing a couple of months later after I bought a pickup for 20K (this was back a ways) and then a trailer for another 2.5 that turned out to be not good enough so I bought a better one a few years later. I am now on the second pickup, second trailer & then there is the harness, saddles clothes, carts, etc. etc. etc. The Horse is the cheapest part...
Re: mules
This message is from: "Mike May, Registrar NFHR" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> At 10:11 AM 1/31/00 -0500, you wrote: This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] But what can you get for a Fjord? I would be reasonably sure one could find a Fjord gelding for under $3000, and maybe significantly lower than that, by shopping around. Forget some of these breeders who want $10,000 for a stripe down the back. A good mule could likely get as much or more to the right person. Merek But you could also get a nice little Filly out of the deal. Or with the right breeding a good quality stallion that is worth much more. === Norwegian Fjord Horse Registry Mike May, Registrar Voice 716-872-4114 FAX 716-787-0497 http://www.nfhr.com mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: mules
This message is from: Mary Thurman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> --- Mike May <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > This message is from: Mike May <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > At 10:39 AM 1/30/00 -0800, you wrote: > >Because - believe it or not - some people actually > >PREFER mules to horses. Just ask any "mule man"(or > >woman). Plus it's my guess that a mule is cheaper > >than a Fjord - and think of the potential "hybrid > >vigor"! > > But why would you want to have your mare bred to > have a less valuable > offspring? Sometimes money isn't everything. Sometimes it is better to produce something affordable and useful to the "general farmer" or whoever, who prefers to use mules. And there ARE situations in which a mule is better suited to the task than a horse. Money should never be the sole objective in producing animals - one of the considerations, yes - but not the only one. Sometimes I think that a lot of us in the horse world have lost track of that fact - thus producing horses that are "wonderful" but are priced completely out of the reach of the very people who could make the best use of them. Think about it - why would anyone want to use an inferior(poorly bred) animal if he could use the best? The answer is that they often must settle for less than the best because they simply cannot afford the best. Are we really doing the end-users a great service by driving the price of a good horse beyond their means? I am not advocating starting a whole new equine industry here - mass producing of mules. I am merely suggesting that there are times and situations where it would be prudent to produce an occasional Fjord mule. I happen to think they would be very exceptional animals - albeit probably very smart. I once actually owned a Fjord filly (prebred, registered, etc.) who reminded me more of a mule than a horse in her personality. She was purchased by some "mule" people who are very happy with her, I understand. And, no, they are not breeding mules from her. They like her just the way she is. Mary = Mary Thurman Raintree Farms [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com
Re: mules
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] But what can you get for a Fjord? I would be reasonably sure one could find a Fjord gelding for under $3000, and maybe significantly lower than that, by shopping around. Forget some of these breeders who want $10,000 for a stripe down the back. A good mule could likely get as much or more to the right person. Merek
Re: mules
This message is from: Mike May <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> At 10:39 AM 1/30/00 -0800, you wrote: Because - believe it or not - some people actually PREFER mules to horses. Just ask any "mule man"(or woman). Plus it's my guess that a mule is cheaper than a Fjord - and think of the potential "hybrid vigor"! But why would you want to have your mare bred to have a less valuable offspring? Somehow this still doesn't make much sense. I could at least see a reason if the resulting offspring was going to be worth more money that a real Fjord foal would be.
RE: Mules and head reading
This message is from: "Frederick J. (Fred) Pack" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Hi folks, we also raise miniature horses. Information about the miniatures can be found at http://www.amhr.com Fred Pack By the way, I've been wondering, too, if mini-pigs are bred to be small like miniature horses. Does someone know where to get more detailed info on what the process is like that has made miniature horses smaller and smaller (although the initial individuals were bigger than the final results). It would also be interesting to know more about their health - VERY HEALTHY. if they are as healthy as horses in general or if there are some special problems they are more likely to have. NO SPECIAL PROBLEMS. Thank you have a beautiful Sunday, all. Sini. http://www.saunalahti.fi/~partoy/Juhola6.html
Re: mules
This message is from: Marsha Jo Hannah <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > But why would you breed for a mule when you could > > get a Fjord ? > > Because - believe it or not - some people actually PREFER mules to > horses. Just ask any "mule man"(or woman). Plus it's my guess > that a mule is cheaper than a Fjord - and think of the potential > "hybrid vigor"! One of the major supporters of mules thru the years has been the Army. They found that mules could do more work, on less feed, in hotter weather, with fewer problems with sickness, lameness, etc than could any of the horse breeds available to them. So, why did the Norwegian Army use Fjords? Probably a lack of donkeys to breed them with ;-) In some times and places, mules were considered be an "upper class" animal, no doubt valued for their surefootedness. Nobility were permitted to ride mules; commoners were not. Status is in the eye of the beholder. As for zebra hybrids---this no doubt started in South Africa. There exist equine diseases in Africa that kill off horses very quickly, but don't affect zebras. In order to have draft and riding equines, they experimented with crossing the hard-to-train zebras with other equines, hoping for improved tractability with retained disease resistance. But, yes, now zebrules are mainly a specialty market. And, one of the recommended breeds (as per their literature!) is the Fjord, because of its dun coloring. Food for thought Folks wanting to do inter-species Fjord crosses are not likely to be deterred by the NFHR ban---because there are still lots of Fjords out there that aren't NFHR-registered (other registries, or ones who've not been registered). So, cross-breeding WILL happen. If we postulate that NFHR has attracted a lot of the best stock and breeders, this means that the non-NFHR Fjords are (on average) likely to be of lower quality. So, the view of Fjord crosses will likely be based on what happens when poor-quality mares are out-crossed. Part of why mules had a bad reputation for many years was that, if a mare wasn't good enough to breed horses on, they'd breed her for a mule foal---and her lack of quality showed in those foals. Now that mule breeders are using top-quality mares, the mules are much better looking, have better personalities, etc. Are we perhaps shooting ourselves in the foot by forcing mule breeders to use non-NFHR mares? We may be GUARANTEEING that any Fjord mules (including zebrules) will reflect poorly on Fjords And, from what I've seen of mule folks, the best way to "spur" them into doing something is to tell them, "You can't do that" Marsha Jo HannahMurphy must have been a horseman-- [EMAIL PROTECTED] anything that can go wrong, will! 30 mi SSE of San Francisco, Calif.
Re: mules
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Fri, 28 Jan 2000 11:42:52 -0800 "Jean Gayle" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: >There is a Zeony, a cross between the zebra stallion and a shetland, >preferably white. Scientist have studied this cross as it has >different genes. I do not know if all zebra crosses have different genes >Brian? Steve? Jean Apparently so, yes. Different numbers than either of the contributing parents. Brian Jacobsen, DVM Norwegian Fjordhest Ranch Salisbury, North Carolina
Re: mules
This message is from: "Jean Gayle" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sure Randi, the problem in the purebreds and crossbreds can be poorly matched parents, as you say. But with the less allusive gene today we may be able to improve on that which would include crossbreds too. Think about it. Jean Jean Gayle Aberdeen, WA [Authoress of "The Colonel's Daughter" Occupied Germany 1946 TO 1949 ] http://www.techline.com/~jgayle Barnes & Noble Book Stores -Original Message- From: cnielsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com Date: Sunday, January 30, 2000 7:06 AM Subject: Re: mules >This message is from: "cnielsen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >jean, >couldn't the real problem with these pure breds that you have see be in >poor quality parents?? >I realize sometimes it cant be helped-maybe misjudgment-or the parents just >don't mix well!!randi > > > > >- Original Message ----- >From: Jean Gayle <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >To: >Sent: Saturday, January 29, 2000 9:05 PM >Subject: Re: mules > > >> This message is from: "Jean Gayle" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> >> Kate I just can not agree with you regarding cross/breds. I have known >too >> many sickle hocked, high crupped, short pasterned, high backed, long >backed, >> too long in the pastern, mean by nature, prone to colic, neck set too >high, >> neck set too low, toed in, toed out, behind at the knee, short hip. >straight >> shouldered purebreds. Jean >> >> >> >> >> Jean Gayle >> Aberdeen, WA >> [Authoress of "The Colonel's Daughter" >> Occupied Germany 1946 TO 1949 ] >> http://www.techline.com/~jgayle >> Barnes & Noble Book Stores >> >> >> >
Re: mules
This message is from: Mary Thurman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> --- Jean Gayle <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > This message is from: "Jean Gayle" > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Kate I just can not agree with you regarding > cross/breds. I have known too > many sickle hocked, high crupped, short pasterned, > high backed, long backed, > too long in the pastern, mean by nature, prone to > colic, neck set too high, > neck set too low, toed in, toed out, behind at the > knee, short hip. straight > shouldered purebreds. Jean Amen to that! Mary = Mary Thurman Raintree Farms [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com
Re: mules
This message is from: Mary Thurman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> --- Jon & Mary Ofjord <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > This message is from: Jon & Mary Ofjord > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > At 08:20 AM 1/28/00 -0800, you wrote: > >Well said! I couldn't agree more. There are > places > >where well-bred mules are very useful. I think it > is > >a disservice to the mule population to ban the > >production of a mule from a breed of horse that > would > >probably produce a very excellent light-duty mule. > > > >Mary - also donning flame suit and hoping for > rain!! > But why would you breed for a mule when you could > get a Fjord ? Because - believe it or not - some people actually PREFER mules to horses. Just ask any "mule man"(or woman). Plus it's my guess that a mule is cheaper than a Fjord - and think of the potential "hybrid vigor"! Mary = Mary Thurman Raintree Farms [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com
Re: mules
This message is from: "cnielsen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> jean, couldn't the real problem with these pure breds that you have see be in poor quality parents?? I realize sometimes it cant be helped-maybe misjudgment-or the parents just don't mix well!!randi - Original Message - From: Jean Gayle <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Saturday, January 29, 2000 9:05 PM Subject: Re: mules > This message is from: "Jean Gayle" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Kate I just can not agree with you regarding cross/breds. I have known too > many sickle hocked, high crupped, short pasterned, high backed, long backed, > too long in the pastern, mean by nature, prone to colic, neck set too high, > neck set too low, toed in, toed out, behind at the knee, short hip. straight > shouldered purebreds. Jean > > > > > Jean Gayle > Aberdeen, WA > [Authoress of "The Colonel's Daughter" > Occupied Germany 1946 TO 1949 ] > http://www.techline.com/~jgayle > Barnes & Noble Book Stores > > >
Mules and head reading
This message is from: sini seppala <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > "I think you'd find that the things she considers positive are things > that we would look for in a good horse any way." Thank you for the info Laurie, hope I'll get to know Linda's theory better some time. Ruthie, I think your ideas about why not do inter-species breeding sound well thought-out. Even if one of the experiments (=mule) has turned out good it can be an exception. Both donkeys and horses are domestic animals unlike zebras so they have more in common and may make a more 'natural' cross. By the way, I've been wondering, too, if mini-pigs are bred to be small like miniature horses. Does someone know where to get more detailed info on what the process is like that has made miniature horses smaller and smaller (although the initial individuals were bigger than the final results). It would also be interesting to know more about their health - if they are as healthy as horses in general or if there are some special problems they are more likely to have. Thank you have a beautiful Sunday, all. Sini. http://www.saunalahti.fi/~partoy/Juhola6.html
Re: mules
This message is from: "Meredith Sessoms" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >This message is from: "Starfire Farm, LLC" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >I, personally, like a zebra to be a zebra, and a horse to be a >horse.I just don't see a reason to cross the two. The color is >interesting, but it doesn't go any further than that for me. I agree wholeheartedly. There was a zorse in Pat Parelli's seminar at Equitana. It behaved fairly well when I was watching, however, it did take off on its own and ran around until it was caught. I once saw a feature on zorses on Larry Mahon's horse series on TV, someone handed him the lead to a zorse foal and it objected so much to being handled that it flipped itself over backwards to get away. He did nothing unusual to it. And I think the poor things are downright homely looking in the face. If the line could be continued to accentuate the color and loose the wild behavior I could see breeding them. But since they are nothing but strange acting mules with unusual coloring, I don't see the sense in breeding them at all. It certainly isn't a color improvement over the Zebra! Here is a horse color I hope can be perpetuated as a color breed: Brindle Horses http://members.aol.com/brindlehos/ Three of my favorite photos from the site: http://members.aol.com/brindlehos/dunbar.htm http://members.aol.com/brinslides/tiger.jpg http://members.aol.com/brinslides/ginger.jpg I agree with the rule against outcrossing Fjords with other types of horse. I've seen several photo's of Fjord crosses and only one looked to truly be as nice a horse as a Fjord of decent quality and worth breeding for. And there is no telling what personality traits a cross would have that could be blamed on the Fjord. I can't see making a mule with a breeding quality Connemara mare, Andulasian mare, Dartmoor Pony mare, Lipizzan mare, Highland Pony mare, Norwegian Fjord mare, etc. A mare that is not breeding quality should not be bred at all. If mules could be made with stallions, that is a different story. But I don't think they use Donkey mares to make mules, size being the one factor I can think of. Besides, would you want a double dose of smarts? Fjord brains + donkey brains could mean nothing but trouble! >>><<< Meredith Sessoms >>><<< Soddy-Daisy. Tennessee. USA >>><<< Dorina & NFR Aagot
Re: mules
This message is from: "Jean Gayle" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Kate I just can not agree with you regarding cross/breds. I have known too many sickle hocked, high crupped, short pasterned, high backed, long backed, too long in the pastern, mean by nature, prone to colic, neck set too high, neck set too low, toed in, toed out, behind at the knee, short hip. straight shouldered purebreds. Jean Jean Gayle Aberdeen, WA [Authoress of "The Colonel's Daughter" Occupied Germany 1946 TO 1949 ] http://www.techline.com/~jgayle Barnes & Noble Book Stores
Re: mules
This message is from: "Denise Delgado" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Re: mules
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In a message dated 01/29/2000 9:24:17 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > I am very against recreational breeding just to "see what we would get." I SO agree. I see so many crosses that are just not suited for ANYTHING come through my barn. It's sad. You see an animal in front of you that can't do what the owner wants it to b/c it's just not built for it. Unfortunatly with bad conformation it's really not built to do anything well and stay sound. So the owner sells it. Usually to some beginner who doesn't know a fetlock from a forelock. Well, soon the horse is lame or bucking or "not cooperating" so it's off to auction agaqin for poor Mr Cross Breed. Maybe he'll be lucky enough to find a home where he's a lawn ornament. But probably not. So he's passed from hand to hand, trusting less and less. Realize this isn't every cross. I had a wonderful AndalusianX who was my love of my life. But even he had physical limitations caused by his breeding. When we started making all these "designer" breeds long ago we had purposes for each individual breed. And these breeds excelled at certain things. So why bring another crossbred baby into the world when mother nature is so fickle with her genes? I guess I would prefer not to mess with perfection...just enjoy the beauty of it. Kate in CT
Re: mules
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Alison, zip up your flame suit because here comes some small flames. Breeding a zebra to another horse is a very bad idea because the horse will be loosing some of his domesticity and could be a dangerous animal to train. You know how hard it is to desensitize a horse from his normal fight or flight response, i.e. bolting, shying, bucking, rearing? Why on earth would you want to introduce a non-domestic animal into a horse population that we have been trying to TAME for 2000yrs? Besides that, I am a big animal lover and I am very against recreational breeding just to "see what we would get." There are many other hobbies that can be fulfilling without creating misbegotten animals that usually have to be euthanized or end up hurting someone. I think if people have this big urge to watch odd animals get together, buy a fish tank and try it there!
Re: mules
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In a message dated 1/29/00 6:01:51 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: << Can you, conversely, give a "conclusive reason" why "inter-species" breeding should be ALLOWED? For instance, an outstanding example of a speciman of a successful or improved "inter-species breeding." I can't. Getting back to the wolf-cross thingwe had a wolf cross "dumped" on us once, loved him dearly! But his unique schizo-nature made him something of a social outcast. We discovered that if he was loosed he would "fly" through yards chomping cats without missing a step or batting an eyelash. No conscience. I'm sure they're all different and no one need defend them to me... I always championed "Wolf" (we called him) even to court (and lost). And lo and behold if he didn't die of old age =) (fondly remembered). While I'm digressing... What about these little pot-bellied pigs? are they some kind of mixing? You never used to hear of them and now it seems they're regarded as refuse! I know of an animal refuge that has dozens of them. Mixing breeds seems like an inhumane thing to do, creating misfits for a life of misery and, and, and, you shouldn't tamper with Mother Nature! Okay, take your best shot! But remember... we shoot a lot out here in "wild and wooly" Montana! =)) Ruthie (bored in the gourd) >> Well aren't YOU the ignorant one! You just answered your own question and never realized it! In case you missed it again, the answer is ...MULES! Do you imagine they have been produced all these centuries because they were an inferior animal? That mule breeders and users have been hitting themselves over the heads for all that time and asking "Why am I breeding and/or using these horse-donkey crosses?" And the pot-bellied pigs. No, they aren't the result of some Frankenstein cross. They are the basic food pig in Vietnam. They just happen to stay small if fed conservatively. Keyword "conservatively". Like all pigs, if you feed them excessively, they keep getting bigger. So people bought these "cute mini-pigs" because of the hype, to be different, then them eat all they wanted. Viola! A 300-pound "mini" running around the house and feeling dominant, as pigs will feel if given the chance. I have seen this happen at a friend's place. THAT is why you see them dumped. Get the facts straight, other wise people will think you come from out in the sticks. Merek
Re: mules
This message is from: "Bushnell's" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> At 11:59 AM 01/29/2000 -0700, you wrote: >This message is from: Alison Barr <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >Okay, I still haven't gotten a conclusive reason the NFHR has banned >inter-species breeding. Can you, conversely, give a "conclusive reason" why "inter-species" breeding should be ALLOWED? For instance, an outstanding example of a speciman of a successful or improved "inter-species breeding." I can't. Getting back to the wolf-cross thingwe had a wolf cross "dumped" on us once, loved him dearly! But his unique schizo-nature made him something of a social outcast. We discovered that if he was loosed he would "fly" through yards chomping cats without missing a step or batting an eyelash. No conscience. I'm sure they're all different and no one need defend them to me... I always championed "Wolf" (we called him) even to court (and lost). And lo and behold if he didn't die of old age =) (fondly remembered). While I'm digressing... What about these little pot-bellied pigs? are they some kind of mixing? You never used to hear of them and now it seems they're regarded as refuse! I know of an animal refuge that has dozens of them. Mixing breeds seems like an inhumane thing to do, creating misfits for a life of misery and, and, and, you shouldn't tamper with Mother Nature! Okay, take your best shot! But remember... we shoot a lot out here in "wild and wooly" Montana! =)) Ruthie (bored in the gourd)
Re: mules
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In a message dated 1/29/00 12:43:52 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: << This message is from: "Starfire Farm, LLC" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Well! Thanks, Sini, for posting the URLs for the Zorse site. I had heard that there was a woman in the Fort Collins area breeding these animals. I had also heard that one went through one of our local auctions a couple of years ago, but I didn't get to see it. I also heard that she (Ms. Repp) was looking for a fjord mare to breed to her zebra jack (is that the right term?) Hmmm. It's interesting to me that they look so much like mules. I wonder what they're like to train? I, personally, like a zebra to be a zebra, and a horse to be a horse.I just don't see a reason to cross the two. The color is interesting, but it doesn't go any further than that for me. >> Zebra are stallions and mares, same as horses. And it is much harder to train a zebra, as they are sharper and remember bad experiences better than a horse does. Likely most people calling themselves horse trainers would have the ability to train a zebra effectively. Merek
