Re: [Freedos-user] Updates to the FreeDOS website?

[Jerome Shidel]

Hi,

> On Feb 23, 2021, at 8:37 PM, Eric Auer  wrote:
> 
> "Downoad" is where I would expect to just get one ISO,
> not where I seek information about emulators. This also
> is why I would like a separate topic or tile which can
> advertise the LSM list directly on the front page :-)

On a side note…

At present, the utilities for the online repo creates all those browsable 
based on the LSM metadata in the packages that are in the repo. 

Eventually, I will add support for it to include pages for external linking 
and downloads. 

For example, it could have an entry for a program like As-Easy-As. The 
entry could contain information about the program and links to their site.  
But, a download would not be hosted in the repo.

It’s just one of the numerous things on my TO-DO list. 

:-)

Jerome




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Re: [Freedos-user] Updates to the FreeDOS website?

[Andrew Robins]

I recall seeing with delight the rural mobile blood donation units here in 
Queensland, Australia, using DOS exclusively on old laptops to integrate their 
data entry with their servers. The phlebotomists (nurses) I spoke with up until 
about 2015 swore by the reliability, security and usability of the old 
"clunkers", that seemed incapable of breaking down. The job was always done - 
no bells or whistles required. New blood came in at Head Office and demanded 
new expensive Windows 10 laptops and software for the same job. Now the nurses 
are still swearing - but not in the same manner - after innumerable technical 
and hardware reliability issues with the passing of the Old Guard standards. I 
still hear of legacy DOS software being used in various situations -  I reckon 
the  2015 survey breakdown you have outlined for the website, Jim, covers most 
ground - I wonder if you do choose to change the 'embedded systems' subpage, 
you might consider addressing instead the upcycle/recycling "market" to assist 
those newcomers to FreeDOS who might appreciate the opportunity to take a break 
from the hamsterwheel of programmed obsolescence, false economies and the 
current propensity to track'n'trace user's activities by the 
technological/information industry? 


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Re: [Freedos-user] Updates to the FreeDOS website?

[Thomas Mueller]

Excerpt from Jim Hall:


> The three "infobox" tiles (Games, Legacy apps, Embedded systems) come
> from a survey I ran several years ago, to ask how people use FreeDOS.
> People responded that they use FreeDOS for three main things:
> 1. Playing classic DOS games
> 2. Running legacy DOS applications (such as for business, or for fun)
> 3. Developing for an embedded system

 
> However, I think I ran that survey in 2015. And five years is a long
> time. I don't know how many people use DOS these days to run an
> embedded system (when I served as CIO in government, I retired our
> last DOS embedded system in 2019 - and government is often the last to
> retire such things. So it might not be useful to mention "embedded
> systems" on the updated site. I might remove the "Embedded" infobox or
> replace it with something else.

My main use for freeDOS is to run Borland Quattro 5 for DOS, also possibly 
dBASE IV 1.1.

But I don't do that often, preferring Gnumeric spreadsheet, which does not run 
under DOS.

For embedded systems, I think the embedded community is moving to Linux with 
musl C library.

There are various toolkits available for compiling Linux toolchains and root 
systems: 
crosstool-ng (crosstool-ng.org)
ptxdist (ptxdist.org)
Yocto Project and Open Embedded (yoctoproject.org and yoctoproject.org)
OpenADK (openadk.org)
Openwrt (openwrt.org)
musl-cross-make:

-bash-5.0$ git -C ../musl-cross-make remote -v
origin  https://github.com/richfelker/musl-cross-make.git (fetch)
origin  https://github.com/richfelker/musl-cross-make.git (push)

Buildroot (buildroot.org), but my impression is unfavorable.

Tom



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Re: [Freedos-user] Updates to the FreeDOS website?

[Eric Auer]

Hi Jim,

> -PC Emulators
> -Games
> -Utilities
> -Programming
> -Networking
> -Technical Information
> -Power Tools
> 
> Most of these links will instead go into the other "About" pages - for
> example, the "Games" links will go into the "Games" page, and the "PC
> Emulators" links will go into the "Download" pages.

"Downoad" is where I would expect to just get one ISO,
not where I seek information about emulators. This also
is why I would like a separate topic or tile which can
advertise the LSM list directly on the front page :-)

I suggest to not try TOO hard to get rid of "links" and
merge too many topics. You could even have 7 topic pages,
one for each of the topics formerly on the links page :-)

Eric



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Re: [Freedos-user] Updates to the FreeDOS website?

[Jim Hall]

>From earlier this month:

> On Sunday, February 7, 2021 6:49 AM, Jim Hall  wrote:
> ...
> Do you need a tool tip for the social media icons? Each icon is
> the logo of a different social media platform: Twitter,
> Facebook, YouTube. If you have an account on one of these, the
> logo should attract you to that. If you don't have an account
> on them, then you probably wouldn't click on it anyway. Or so I
> assumed.


On Sun, Feb 7, 2021 at 12:53 PM Mercury Thirteen via Freedos-user
 wrote:
> I'd say that's a safe assumption to make.


Turns out that I do need to have tooltips in there. I want to make
sure the updated website is more accessible, and providing an HTML
"label" on the links will support accessibility (for example, screen
readers).

The updated test website provides tooltips on all of the social media
icons - even the ones that let you share an article to Facebook,
Twitter, etc.

Jim


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Re: [Freedos-user] Updates to the FreeDOS website?

[Jim Hall]

On Sun, Feb 21, 2021 at 7:59 PM Eric Auer  wrote:
[..]
> Not sure what you mean by embedded apps for DOS, but as
> the tile linking there mentions Linux, this might be a
> good place to discuss the ins and outs of dosemu2, qemu,
> dosemu1, dosbox and other ways to run DOS on modern OS:
>
> While some use old DOS apps because they need them to
> control old hardware, others would be happy to move
> towards more modern hardware while still sticking to
> their old DOS apps. Linux as a wrapper can help both
> in a variety of (but not all) cases.

The three "infobox" tiles (Games, Legacy apps, Embedded systems) come
from a survey I ran several years ago, to ask how people use FreeDOS.
People responded that they use FreeDOS for three main things:
1. Playing classic DOS games
2. Running legacy DOS applications (such as for business, or for fun)
3. Developing for an embedded system


However, I think I ran that survey in 2015. And five years is a long
time. I don't know how many people use DOS these days to run an
embedded system (when I served as CIO in government, I retired our
last DOS embedded system in 2019 - and government is often the last to
retire such things. So it might not be useful to mention "embedded
systems" on the updated site. I might remove the "Embedded" infobox or
replace it with something else.


>
> The "apps" page should probably link to the LSM list
> and the files archive, as it only presents a few nice
> examples, so it asks for links to "all the rest", too.
>
> Regarding the "games" page, I do not understand how
> that would make the links collection page obsolete?
>

My goal is to remove the "Links" page entirely by moving that content
into other, more readily accessed pages on the website. A "Links" page
is the equivalent of a "Misc" page - it's not really anything. The
current "Links" page has these groups of links:

-PC Emulators
-Games
-Utilities
-Programming
-Networking
-Technical Information
-Power Tools

Most of these links will instead go into the other "About" pages - for
example, the "Games" links will go into the "Games" page, and the "PC
Emulators" links will go into the "Download" pages.


Jim


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Re: [Freedos-user] Updates to the FreeDOS website?

[Jim Hall]

Thanks! I'm keeping a list of the feedback and will include this in a
tweaked design for the next iteration. (Specifically, I'm thinking
about adding a border to that, to provide some separation.)

Jim

On Mon, Feb 22, 2021 at 5:42 PM Mercury Thirteen via Freedos-user
 wrote:
>
> It looks great! My only suggestion would be to add top padding to the 
> "Download FreeDOS" and "What’s New" sections so that the title of one does 
> not appear immediately beneath the previous for better visual separation.
>
>
> Sent with ProtonMail Secure Email.
>
> ‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
> On Sunday, February 21, 2021 8:08 PM, Jim Hall  wrote:
>
>
> Hi everyone! I mentioned in another email that I'm working on a few changes 
> to the FreeDOS website. The goals in this update are to make things easier to 
> find, to improve accessibility, and to make it easier to share news items to 
> social media.
>
> I've updated the test site based on your feedback from last time, and I'd 
> like to know what you think of the new version.
>
> http://test.freedos.org/
>
> However, not everything is working yet! Specifically, most "sub-pages" (links 
> to other pages on this site) will put you on a plain text page with a 
> description of what the page will be about. So if you get a "plain text 
> page," it's just not updated yet.
>
> Also: the green bar at the top of the page is not part of the website 
> redesign. That's just meant as an alert that you are on a test site. That 
> green bar will go away in the final update.
>
>
> Would you like to test the new website? There's a link in the green bar where 
> you can answer some questions to provide directed feedback. You can email me 
> your reply.
>
>
> (If it looks like this design works well, then my next step will be to apply 
> the new design to the rest of the test website, and see how the "sub-pages" 
> work with the new design.)
>
>
> Thanks!
>
> Jim
>
>
>
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Re: [Freedos-user] Updates to the FreeDOS website?

[Mercury Thirteen via Freedos-user]

It looks great! My only suggestion would be to add top padding to the "Download 
FreeDOS" and "What’s New" sections so that the title of one does not appear 
immediately beneath the previous for better visual separation.

Sent with [ProtonMail](https://protonmail.com) Secure Email.

‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
On Sunday, February 21, 2021 8:08 PM, Jim Hall  wrote:

> Hi everyone! I mentioned in another email that I'm working on a few changes 
> to the FreeDOS website. The goals in this update are to make things easier to 
> find, to improve accessibility, and to make it easier to share news items to 
> social media.
>
> I've updated the test site based on your feedback from last time, and I'd 
> like to know what you think of the new version.
>
> http://test.freedos.org/
>
> However, not everything is working yet! Specifically, most "sub-pages" (links 
> to other pages on this site) will put you on a plain text page with a 
> description of what the page will be about. So if you get a "plain text 
> page," it's just not updated yet.
>
> Also: the green bar at the top of the page is not part of the website 
> redesign. That's just meant as an alert that you are on a test site. That 
> green bar will go away in the final update.
>
> Would you like to test the new website? There's a link in the green bar where 
> you can answer some questions to provide directed feedback. You can email me 
> your reply.
>
> (If it looks like this design works well, then my next step will be to apply 
> the new design to the rest of the test website, and see how the "sub-pages" 
> work with the new design.)
>
> Thanks!
>
> Jim___
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Re: [Freedos-user] Updates to the FreeDOS website?

[Jim Hall]

By the way - if you would like to help test the new site, but need a more
structured way to give feedback, click the link in the green bar. That has
specific questions that will help me evaluate feedback.

Specifically, the link goes to:
http://test.freedos.org/test.html



On Sun, Feb 21, 2021 at 7:08 PM Jim Hall  wrote:

>
> Hi everyone! I mentioned in another email that I'm working on a few
> changes to the FreeDOS website. The goals in this update are to make things
> easier to find, to improve accessibility, and to make it easier to share
> news items to social media.
>
> I've updated the test site based on your feedback from last time, and I'd
> like to know what you think of the new version.
>
> http://test.freedos.org/
>
> However, not everything is working yet! Specifically, most "sub-pages"
> (links to other pages on this site) will put you on a plain text page with
> a description of *what the page will be about*. So if you get a "plain
> text page," it's just not updated yet.
>
> Also: the green bar at the top of the page is *not* part of the website
> redesign. That's just meant as an alert that you are on a test site. That
> green bar will go away in the final update.
>
>
> Would you like to test the new website? There's a link in the green bar
> where you can answer some questions to provide directed feedback. You can
> email me your reply.
>
>
> (If it looks like this design works well, then my next step will be to
> apply the new design to the rest of the test website, and see how the
> "sub-pages" work with the new design.)
>
>
> Thanks!
>
> Jim
>
>
>
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Re: [Freedos-user] Updates to the FreeDOS website?

[Jim Hall]

Resending to cc the email list:

On Sun, Feb 21, 2021 at 11:01 PM Jim Hall  wrote:

> Thanks for the feedback!
>
> Yes, I plan to offer links to download DOS apps and games from each of the
> 4 tiles when you click on them for more information. If the app is open
> source or gratis, I’ll provide a direct link. For other apps (classic
> shareware, etc) I’ll link to an archive site somewhere. That will include
> Internet Archive and other sites (look on our current Links page, it’s
> pretty much that - I want to get rid of the generic Links page with this
> redesign.) That should help people who are interested in playing DOS games
> to actually find games.
>
>
>
> On Sun, Feb 21, 2021 at 10:25 PM Andrew Robins 
> wrote:
>
>> Hi Jim -
>> looks good to me - the introductory/springboard page looks neat and
>> inviting, without undue clutter. I don't know whether this has been
>> mentioned before - the Internet Archive not only has a repository of loads
>> of MS-DOS games, but also you can play the games within your modern browser
>> (! e.g., https://archive.org/details/msdos_Pac-Man_1983). And there are
>> others (e.g., https://www.playdosgames.com/). There are drawbacks with
>> such an avenue of course, but it may encourage those new to FreeDOS to have
>> a dedicated method to play classic games offline.
>> Just my 2c
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Feb 22, 2021, at 11:08 AM, Jim Hall wrote:
>>
>>
>> Hi everyone! I mentioned in another email that I'm working on a few
>> changes to the FreeDOS website. The goals in this update are to make things
>> easier to find, to improve accessibility, and to make it easier to share
>> news items to social media.
>>
>> I've updated the test site based on your feedback from last time, and I'd
>> like to know what you think of the new version.
>>
>> http://test.freedos.org/
>>
>> However, not everything is working yet! Specifically, most "sub-pages"
>> (links to other pages on this site) will put you on a plain text page with
>> a description of *what the page will be about*. So if you get a "plain
>> text page," it's just not updated yet.
>>
>> Also: the green bar at the top of the page is *not* part of the website
>> redesign. That's just meant as an alert that you are on a test site. That
>> green bar will go away in the final update.
>>
>>
>> Would you like to test the new website? There's a link in the green bar
>> where you can answer some questions to provide directed feedback. You can
>> email me your reply.
>>
>>
>> (If it looks like this design works well, then my next step will be to
>> apply the new design to the rest of the test website, and see how the
>> "sub-pages" work with the new design.)
>>
>>
>> Thanks!
>>
>> Jim
>>
>>
>>
>> ___
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>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
>>
>>
>>
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Re: [Freedos-user] Updates to the FreeDOS website?

[Eric Auer]

Hi Jim, thank you for updating the new design test page!

> http://test.freedos.org/

The "tiles" with popular topics are nice, but they sort
of hide the other menu items for example in the top menu
bar which look like fine print in contrast - those links
are a lot smaller and lack any immediate explanation.

Maybe the menu bar could be just on the sub-pages, with
the start page providing tiles introducing each of the
menu bar items? Then people can either use the menu bar
to jump between known sections, or return to the start
page when they prefer more details about what is where.

I think the PACKAGE LIST deserves a tile on the front
page. We have quite many nicely packaged and therefore
easy to install (distro) and download (casual DOS use)
applications and it is nice to browse the LSM list. Of
course you could consider augmenting it with some short
descriptions in the list or even screenshots for some
selected packages in the individual app view, but any
way to get to the entry page directly will be great ;-)

At the moment, one has to know that the very humble
"keyword link" for "What's included" in the download
page leads to the even more humble hub page of

https://www.ibiblio.org/pub/micro/pc-stuff/freedos/files/distributions/1.2/repos/pkg-html/index.html

so it would be nice to reach the list with one obvious
link from the start page instead of two too subtle ones
and have one or two sentences per category to make it
easier to navigate from pkg-html/ to the right category.

Of course this is sort of linked to the "files archive".

Back to the test page: forums/ might not be necessary
if there are few enough forums to just link each of
them, maybe even using a tile, from the start page :-)

Not sure what you mean by embedded apps for DOS, but as
the tile linking there mentions Linux, this might be a
good place to discuss the ins and outs of dosemu2, qemu,
dosemu1, dosbox and other ways to run DOS on modern OS:

While some use old DOS apps because they need them to
control old hardware, others would be happy to move
towards more modern hardware while still sticking to
their old DOS apps. Linux as a wrapper can help both
in a variety of (but not all) cases.

The "apps" page should probably link to the LSM list
and the files archive, as it only presents a few nice
examples, so it asks for links to "all the rest", too.

Regarding the "games" page, I do not understand how
that would make the links collection page obsolete?

Regards, Eric



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Re: [Freedos-user] Updates to the FreeDOS website?

[Jim Hall]

Hi everyone! I mentioned in another email that I'm working on a few changes
to the FreeDOS website. The goals in this update are to make things easier
to find, to improve accessibility, and to make it easier to share news
items to social media.

I've updated the test site based on your feedback from last time, and I'd
like to know what you think of the new version.

http://test.freedos.org/

However, not everything is working yet! Specifically, most "sub-pages"
(links to other pages on this site) will put you on a plain text page with
a description of *what the page will be about*. So if you get a "plain text
page," it's just not updated yet.

Also: the green bar at the top of the page is *not* part of the website
redesign. That's just meant as an alert that you are on a test site. That
green bar will go away in the final update.


Would you like to test the new website? There's a link in the green bar
where you can answer some questions to provide directed feedback. You can
email me your reply.


(If it looks like this design works well, then my next step will be to
apply the new design to the rest of the test website, and see how the
"sub-pages" work with the new design.)


Thanks!

Jim
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Re: [Freedos-user] Updates to the FreeDOS website?

[Mercury Thirteen via Freedos-user]

Sent with [ProtonMail](https://protonmail.com) Secure Email.

‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
On Sunday, February 7, 2021 6:49 AM, Jim Hall  wrote:

> ...
> Do you need a tool tip for the social media icons? Each icon is the logo of a 
> different social media platform: Twitter, Facebook, YouTube. If you have an 
> account on one of these, the logo should attract you to that. If you don't 
> have an account on them, then you probably wouldn't click on it anyway. Or so 
> I assumed.
> ...

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Re: [Freedos-user] Updates to the FreeDOS website?

[Bryan Kilgallin]

Thanks, Jim:

If 
you don't have an account on them, then you probably wouldn't click on 
it anyway. Or so I assumed.


All assumptions are risks!
--
members.iinet.net.au/~kilgallin/


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Re: [Freedos-user] Updates to the FreeDOS website?

[Jim Hall]

On Sat, Feb 6, 2021 at 10:14 PM Bryan Kilgallin 
wrote:

> Jim:
>
> > Do the social media icons on this test page look better? (This also
> > centers the screenshots and "learn more" buttons.)
> >
> > http://test.freedos.org/test.html
>
> Hovering the mouse-pointer over the icons does not show text explaining
> what they are or do.
>


I didn't realize that the "test.html" page was still showing an empty (but
in progress) new design. I've deactivated that page so I don't cause
confusion.

Do you need a tool tip for the social media icons? Each icon is the logo of
a different social media platform: Twitter, Facebook, YouTube. If you have
an account on one of these, the logo should attract you to that. If you
don't have an account on them, then you probably wouldn't click on it
anyway. Or so I assumed.

But I might be able to add a dfn tag around each of the icons, which
would result in a "tooltip" like definition box when you hover your mouse
over them.


Jim
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Re: [Freedos-user] Updates to the FreeDOS website?

[Jim Hall]

On Sat, Feb 6, 2021 at 10:11 PM Bryan Kilgallin 
wrote:

> Thanks, Jim Hall wrote
> > I've started a test version of the website at test.freedos.org
> >  and I'd love your feedback on it!
>
> It only contains less than two lines of text.
>


What did the two lines of text say? Did it say this:

*Hi everyone!* Thanks for the feedback so far on the website updates. I'm
> making changes and will put the test site back up when the next iteration
> is ready. Probably in a few weeks (working on other projects too) so mid to
> late February.


(copied/pasted from test.freedos.org)

That message is meant to alert anyone visiting the test.freedos.org site
that I'm making changes so the test site is down, but *will put the test
site back up when the next iteration is ready*. So the test site is
currently offline while I make changes.


Jim
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Re: [Freedos-user] Updates to the FreeDOS website?

[Bryan Kilgallin]

Jim:

Do the social media icons on this test page look better? (This also 
centers the screenshots and "learn more" buttons.)


http://test.freedos.org/test.html


Hovering the mouse-pointer over the icons does not show text explaining 
what they are or do.

--
members.iinet.net.au/~kilgallin/


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Re: [Freedos-user] Updates to the FreeDOS website?

[Bryan Kilgallin]

Thanks, Jim Hall wrote
I've started a test version of the website at test.freedos.org 
 and I'd love your feedback on it!


It only contains less than two lines of text.

By the way, what is the origin/meaning of the obese fish logo?
--
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Re: [Freedos-user] Updates to the FreeDOS website?

[Greg Gerke via Freedos-user]

Yeah, when it gets to the point of aesthetics then you know you're doin' good ;)

---
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‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
On Saturday, February 6th, 2021 at 12:03 PM, Jim Hall  wrote:

> Thanks! The faint boxes are there while I work on the layout. I mentioned 
> this in my original message:
>
>> And you may notice some faint boxes on the main page - such as around the 
>> diagrams and the articles. I'm using these to help me with the layout; this 
>> will be changed to black-on-white in the end.
>
> But I think if we're making comments about margins and padding, that 
> indicates the general design and site organization is probably easy to use. 
> So I think I need to work on a new iteration with this feedback. I'll 
> temporarily take down the test website while I make some updates. Stay tuned!
>
> On Sat, Feb 6, 2021 at 6:22 AM Greg Gerke via Freedos-user 
>  wrote:
>
>> Maybe a little margin around the text in each of the four boxes so that the 
>> text isn't crammed right up against the edges of the box...?
>>
>> ---
>> gge...@pm.me
>>
>> ‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
>> On Friday, February 5th, 2021 at 3:27 PM, Jim Hall  wrote:
>>
>>> Good iteration. Here's the same "test.html" page with the text below the 
>>> screenshots:
>>> http://test.freedos.org/test2.html
>>>
>>> Does that look better? More importantly, is that easier to use?
>>>
>>> Thanks!
>>>
>>> Jim
>>>
>>> On Fri, Feb 5, 2021 at 3:09 PM Mercury Thirteen via Freedos-user 
>>>  wrote:
>>>
 Looks good! IMO, however, the text would look better below the video/image 
 thumbnails.

 Sent with [ProtonMail](https://protonmail.com) Secure Email.

 ‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
 On Friday, February 5, 2021 3:55 PM, Jim Hall  wrote:

> Do the social media icons on this test page look better? (This also 
> centers the screenshots and "learn more" buttons.)
>
> http://test.freedos.org/test.html
>>
>> ___
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Re: [Freedos-user] Updates to the FreeDOS website?

[Jim Hall]

Thanks! The faint boxes are there while I work on the layout. I mentioned
this in my original message:

*And you may notice some faint boxes on the main page - such as around the
> diagrams and the articles. I'm using these to help me with the layout; this
> will be changed to black-on-white in the end.*



But I think if we're making comments about margins and padding, that
indicates the general design and site organization is probably easy to use.
So I think I need to work on a new iteration with this feedback. I'll
temporarily take down the *test* website while I make some updates. Stay
tuned!


On Sat, Feb 6, 2021 at 6:22 AM Greg Gerke via Freedos-user <
freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net> wrote:

> Maybe a little margin around the text in each of the four boxes so that
> the text isn't crammed right up against the edges of the box...?
>
> ---
> gge...@pm.me
>
>
> ‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
> On Friday, February 5th, 2021 at 3:27 PM, Jim Hall 
> wrote:
>
> Good iteration. Here's the same "test.html" page with the text below the
> screenshots:
> http://test.freedos.org/test2.html
>
> Does that look better? More importantly, is that *easier to use*?
>
> Thanks!
>
> Jim
>
> On Fri, Feb 5, 2021 at 3:09 PM Mercury Thirteen via Freedos-user <
> freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net> wrote:
>
>> Looks good! IMO, however, the text would look better below the
>> video/image thumbnails.
>>
>>
>> Sent with ProtonMail  Secure Email.
>>
>> ‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
>> On Friday, February 5, 2021 3:55 PM, Jim Hall  wrote:
>>
>> Do the social media icons on this test page look better? (This also
>> centers the screenshots and "learn more" buttons.)
>>
>> http://test.freedos.org/test.html
>>
>>
>>
>>
> ___
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> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
>
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Re: [Freedos-user] Updates to the FreeDOS website?

[Greg Gerke via Freedos-user]

Maybe a little margin around the text in each of the four boxes so that the 
text isn't crammed right up against the edges of the box...?

---
gge...@pm.me

‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
On Friday, February 5th, 2021 at 3:27 PM, Jim Hall  wrote:

> Good iteration. Here's the same "test.html" page with the text below the 
> screenshots:
> http://test.freedos.org/test2.html
>
> Does that look better? More importantly, is that easier to use?
>
> Thanks!
>
> Jim
>
> On Fri, Feb 5, 2021 at 3:09 PM Mercury Thirteen via Freedos-user 
>  wrote:
>
>> Looks good! IMO, however, the text would look better below the video/image 
>> thumbnails.
>>
>> Sent with [ProtonMail](https://protonmail.com) Secure Email.
>>
>> ‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
>> On Friday, February 5, 2021 3:55 PM, Jim Hall  wrote:
>>
>>> Do the social media icons on this test page look better? (This also centers 
>>> the screenshots and "learn more" buttons.)
>>>
>>> http://test.freedos.org/test.html___
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Re: [Freedos-user] Updates to the FreeDOS website?

[Jim Hall]

Good iteration. Here's the same "test.html" page with the text below the
screenshots:
http://test.freedos.org/test2.html

Does that look better? More importantly, is that *easier to use*?

Thanks!

Jim

On Fri, Feb 5, 2021 at 3:09 PM Mercury Thirteen via Freedos-user <
freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net> wrote:

> Looks good! IMO, however, the text would look better below the video/image
> thumbnails.
>
>
> Sent with ProtonMail  Secure Email.
>
> ‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
> On Friday, February 5, 2021 3:55 PM, Jim Hall  wrote:
>
> Do the social media icons on this test page look better? (This also
> centers the screenshots and "learn more" buttons.)
>
> http://test.freedos.org/test.html
>
>
>
>
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Re: [Freedos-user] Updates to the FreeDOS website?

[Mercury Thirteen via Freedos-user]

Looks good! IMO, however, the text would look better below the video/image 
thumbnails.

Sent with [ProtonMail](https://protonmail.com) Secure Email.

‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
On Friday, February 5, 2021 3:55 PM, Jim Hall  wrote:

> Do the social media icons on this test page look better? (This also centers 
> the screenshots and "learn more" buttons.)
>
> http://test.freedos.org/test.html
>
> On Fri, Feb 5, 2021 at 2:29 PM Jim Hall  wrote:
>
>> Thanks, this feedback is very helpful!
>>
>> I hadn't finished styling the page. The next iteration will provide a 
>> narrower reading area (like the current www.freedos.org) which should help 
>> the "text spans from edge to edge of the screen" issue. Also will add 
>> spacing around the top "menu" items, and centering the screenshots and 
>> "Learn more" or "More videos" buttons.
>>
>> By "I like the icons at the footer in the current site" I think you mean the 
>> colors in the icons are easier to distinguish than plain gray icons in the 
>> updated design. I was curious what folks would think about that. I can put 
>> colors on those again. :-)
>>
>> Your other feedback on the scenarios/questions is also helpful, thanks!
>>
>> Jim
>>
>> On Fri, Feb 5, 2021 at 1:20 AM Robert Spiteri  wrote:
>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> First of all thanks for all your work on FreeDOS.
>>>
>>> Allow me to give you my opinion regarding aesthetics since I develop 
>>> websites myself:
>>>
>>> - Text spans from edge to edge of the screen - It is quite tiring to read 
>>> especially on a wide screen. Consider limiting the content to a maximum 
>>> width of 1100px centered.
>>> - I would put What's New as the first section - Myself I would be 
>>> interested in knowing about any updates as soon as I visit the site
>>> - The top menu items are too crammed - consider adding some spacing between 
>>> them
>>> - Welcome to FreeDOS section - Consider centering the youtube videos and 
>>> the More Videos button
>>>
>>> Other than that I like the colours etc. Here are my replies to your 
>>> questions:
>>>
> 1. What is your immediate impression? Does it look easier to find 
> information? Is it more welcoming?
>>> Yes it is more welcoming but honestly I like the icons at the footer in the 
>>> current site.
>>> [..]___
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Re: [Freedos-user] Updates to the FreeDOS website?

[Jim Hall]

Do the social media icons on this test page look better? (This also centers
the screenshots and "learn more" buttons.)

http://test.freedos.org/test.html



On Fri, Feb 5, 2021 at 2:29 PM Jim Hall  wrote:

> Thanks, this feedback is very helpful!
>
> I hadn't finished styling the page. The next iteration will provide a
> narrower reading area (like the current www.freedos.org) which
> should help the "text spans from edge to edge of the screen" issue. Also
> will add spacing around the top "menu" items, and centering the screenshots
> and "Learn more" or "More videos" buttons.
>
> By "I like the icons at the footer in the current site" I think you mean
> the colors in the icons are easier to distinguish than plain gray icons in
> the updated design. I was curious what folks would think about that. I can
> put colors on those again. :-)
>
> Your other feedback on the scenarios/questions is also helpful, thanks!
>
> Jim
>
>
> On Fri, Feb 5, 2021 at 1:20 AM Robert Spiteri 
> wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> First of all thanks for all your work on FreeDOS.
>>
>> Allow me to give you my opinion regarding aesthetics since I develop
>> websites myself:
>>
>>
>>- Text spans from edge to edge of the screen - It is quite tiring to
>>read especially on a wide screen. Consider limiting the content to a
>>maximum width of 1100px centered.
>>- I would put What's New as the first section - Myself I would be
>>interested in knowing about any updates as soon as I visit the site
>>- The top menu items are too crammed - consider adding some spacing
>>between them
>>- Welcome to FreeDOS section - Consider centering the youtube videos
>>and the *More Videos *button
>>
>>
>> Other than that I like the colours etc. Here are my replies to
>> your questions:
>>
>> >> 1. What is your immediate impression? Does it look easier to find
>> information? Is it more welcoming?
>> Yes it is more welcoming but honestly I like the icons at the footer in
>> the current site.
>> [..]
>>
>
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Re: [Freedos-user] Updates to the FreeDOS website?

[Jim Hall]

Thanks, this feedback is very helpful!

I hadn't finished styling the page. The next iteration will provide a
narrower reading area (like the current www.freedos.org) which should help
the "text spans from edge to edge of the screen" issue. Also will add
spacing around the top "menu" items, and centering the screenshots and
"Learn more" or "More videos" buttons.

By "I like the icons at the footer in the current site" I think you mean
the colors in the icons are easier to distinguish than plain gray icons in
the updated design. I was curious what folks would think about that. I can
put colors on those again. :-)

Your other feedback on the scenarios/questions is also helpful, thanks!

Jim


On Fri, Feb 5, 2021 at 1:20 AM Robert Spiteri  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> First of all thanks for all your work on FreeDOS.
>
> Allow me to give you my opinion regarding aesthetics since I develop
> websites myself:
>
>
>- Text spans from edge to edge of the screen - It is quite tiring to
>read especially on a wide screen. Consider limiting the content to a
>maximum width of 1100px centered.
>- I would put What's New as the first section - Myself I would be
>interested in knowing about any updates as soon as I visit the site
>- The top menu items are too crammed - consider adding some spacing
>between them
>- Welcome to FreeDOS section - Consider centering the youtube videos
>and the *More Videos *button
>
>
> Other than that I like the colours etc. Here are my replies to
> your questions:
>
> >> 1. What is your immediate impression? Does it look easier to find
> information? Is it more welcoming?
> Yes it is more welcoming but honestly I like the icons at the footer in
> the current site.
> [..]
>
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Re: [Freedos-user] Updates to the FreeDOS website?

[Robert Spiteri]

Hi,

First of all thanks for all your work on FreeDOS.

Allow me to give you my opinion regarding aesthetics since I develop
websites myself:


   - Text spans from edge to edge of the screen - It is quite tiring to
   read especially on a wide screen. Consider limiting the content to a
   maximum width of 1100px centered.
   - I would put What's New as the first section - Myself I would be
   interested in knowing about any updates as soon as I visit the site
   - The top menu items are too crammed - consider adding some spacing
   between them
   - Welcome to FreeDOS section - Consider centering the youtube videos and
   the *More Videos *button


Other than that I like the colours etc. Here are my replies to
your questions:

>> 1. What is your immediate impression? Does it look easier to find
information? Is it more welcoming?
Yes it is more welcoming but honestly I like the icons at the footer in the
current site.

>>2. Imagine you wanted to download the latest version of FreeDOS. Can you
figure out what version you need? Can you download the right version?
In the download section, I would mention the live cd download option. For
me when I realised there is the FD13LiveCD, that is what I downloaded since
I like to test on real hardware before installing.

>>3. Imagine you're a developer and you want to contribute to FreeDOS in
some way. Where would you go first? What information are you looking for?
I would go to the Source option at the top but it would be nice to have a
contribute link/button.

>>4. Imagine you're a new user who wants to try FreeDOS, but you don't have
a lot of experience with DOS. You might need help with the commands and
getting around. Can you get the help you need to do that?
I would go to the Wiki so there should be a section in the wiki about the
commands etc... a sort of user manual

>>5. Imagine you want to download some games to play on FreeDOS. Where
would you go to find games and download them?
I would click the Learn More under the game screenshot. That is quite
straightforward in my opinion

>>6. Imagine you are new to FreeDOS, and you want to know what things you
can do with it. Can you figure this out from the front page? Where else
would you go? What links would you click on to learn more?
Yes I would know immediately from the welcome section and from my
experience, if you are looking for FreeDOS, chances are that you are
already familiar with DOS.

>>7. Imagine you're a developer and you'd like to try out FreeDOS. You're
not sure if you should get too invested in something if it's not being
updated very frequently. Can you tell if FreeDOS is being updated? By
looking at the website, can you figure out if FreeDOS is active, or maybe
has been "dead" or "idle" for a few years?
The dates in the *what's new* section say it all. Once I see that a package
is being actively developed, it means that the project is active. That is
why I suggested that this section goes at the top and when a new FreeDOS
version is out, it is included in that section maybe with a brighter colour.

Hope I answered all your questions as expected.

Thanks and regards,
Robert

On Thu, 4 Feb 2021 at 23:48, Jim Hall  wrote:

>
> I've started a test version of the website at test.freedos.org and I'd
> love your feedback on it!
>
>
> *A few notes:*
>
> This is a *mock-up* of the new website, and it is a work in progress. You
> might see the design change from day to day as I decide to update things.
>
> It's also *incomplete*. For example, right now the top bar isn't
> centered. And you may notice some faint boxes on the main page - such as
> around the diagrams and the articles. I'm using these to help me with the
> layout; this will be changed to black-on-white in the end. You'll also
> notice that sub-pages (links on the website) may land on a plain text
> description of what the page will be eventually. But I obviously haven't
> tackled those pages yet - and don't plan to until I decide the front page
> and general layout has been figured out.
>
>
> If you'd like to help, please answer these questions and scenarios:
>
> 1. What is your immediate impression? Does it look easier to find
> information? Is it more welcoming?
>
> 2. Imagine you wanted to download the latest version of FreeDOS. Can you
> figure out what version you need? Can you download the right version?
>
> 3. Imagine you're a developer and you want to contribute to FreeDOS in
> some way. Where would you go first? What information are you looking for?
>
> 4. Imagine you're a new user who wants to try FreeDOS, but you don't have
> a lot of experience with DOS. You might need help with the commands and
> getting around. Can you get the help you need to do that?
>
> 5. Imagine you want to download some games to play on FreeDOS. Where
> would you go to find games and download them?
>
> 6. Imagine you are new to FreeDOS, and you want to know what things you
> can do with it. Can you figure this out from the front page? Where else
> would yo

Re: [Freedos-user] Updates to the FreeDOS website?

[Jim Hall]

I've started a test version of the website at test.freedos.org and I'd love
your feedback on it!


*A few notes:*

This is a *mock-up* of the new website, and it is a work in progress. You
might see the design change from day to day as I decide to update things.

It's also *incomplete*. For example, right now the top bar isn't centered.
And you may notice some faint boxes on the main page - such as around the
diagrams and the articles. I'm using these to help me with the layout; this
will be changed to black-on-white in the end. You'll also notice that
sub-pages (links on the website) may land on a plain text description of
what the page will be eventually. But I obviously haven't tackled those
pages yet - and don't plan to until I decide the front page and general
layout has been figured out.


If you'd like to help, please answer these questions and scenarios:

1. What is your immediate impression? Does it look easier to find
information? Is it more welcoming?

2. Imagine you wanted to download the latest version of FreeDOS. Can you
figure out what version you need? Can you download the right version?

3. Imagine you're a developer and you want to contribute to FreeDOS in some
way. Where would you go first? What information are you looking for?

4. Imagine you're a new user who wants to try FreeDOS, but you don't have a
lot of experience with DOS. You might need help with the commands and
getting around. Can you get the help you need to do that?

5. Imagine you want to download some games to play on FreeDOS. Where would
you go to find games and download them?

6. Imagine you are new to FreeDOS, and you want to know what things you can
do with it. Can you figure this out from the front page? Where else would
you go? What links would you click on to learn more?

7. Imagine you're a developer and you'd like to try out FreeDOS. You're not
sure if you should get too invested in something if it's not being updated
very frequently. Can you tell if FreeDOS is being updated? By looking at
the website, can you figure out if FreeDOS is active, or maybe has been
"dead" or "idle" for a few years?
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Re: [Freedos-user] Updates to the FreeDOS website?

[Aitor Santamaría]

Hello Jim,

One more idea:


On Sun, 24 Jan 2021 at 23:54, Jim Hall  wrote:

> *3. Make the front page more welcoming*
> The front page is a quick "landing page" for people to learn about
> FreeDOS. It's not bad, but could be better. I'm planning to embed the
> latest FreeDOS video on the front, since the videos are about *things you
> can do with FreeDOS* or *showing off neat features in FreeDOS*, so I
> think the video will help. I'll also make the screenshots smaller so they
> don't take up so much of the screen.
>

Why not add a link to one of those fancy HTML virtual machines? With a link
of "Try it now!".
I seem to remember there were several out there (I can't think of any, but
I guess you list folks can post your favourite).

Aitor
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Re: [Freedos-user] Updates to the FreeDOS website?

[Bryan Kilgallin]

Thanks, Eric:


I'm working on an update to the News system that will provide
"share" buttons to share a news item on Twitter, Facebook, and LinkedIn.
I'd also like to include Reddit.


Please make sure to use the type of share links which only
trigger when users click on share. It would be evil if you
help social media to spy on normal freedos website visitors
by embedding something which phones home.


We should not promote evil spies!
--
members.iinet.net.au/~kilgallin/


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Re: [Freedos-user] Updates to the FreeDOS website?

[Jim Hall]

On Mon, Jan 25, 2021 at 4:12 AM Robert Riebisch  wrote:

> Hi Jim,
>
> > Let me know what you think will make the website easier to use. I'll
> > plan to tackle this in February or March, with plans to deploy in March
> > or April.
>
> Sounds good to me.
>
> Just keep an eye on bandwidth for the front page. Not everyone has VDSL
> or a leased line. ;-)
>
>

Yes, I also want to avoid making the website too "heavy."


Jim
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Re: [Freedos-user] Updates to the FreeDOS website?

[Jim Hall]

On Mon, Jan 25, 2021 at 9:47 AM Dale E Sterner  wrote:

> If you update your website; make sure you keep it open to
> old computers like mine. Update tend to lock out old
> computers like mine.
>
> cheers
> DS
>
>

Yes, I agree. I'm also trying to minimize the javascript on the website. I
use javascript now to let you click through the different screenshots, and
to hide/show the "hamburger" menu icon on mobile devices. But I think I can
do away with both of those.
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Re: [Freedos-user] Updates to the FreeDOS website?

[Jim Hall]

On Mon, Jan 25, 2021 at 5:51 PM Eric Auer  wrote:

>
> Hi Jim,
>
> > *2. Make it easy to share stuff*
> > Sometimes it would be nice to share a news item with Twitter or other
> > social media. I'm working on an update to the News system that will
> provide
> > "share" buttons to share a news item on Twitter, Facebook, and LinkedIn.
> > I'd also like to include Reddit.
>
> Please make sure to use the type of share links which only
> trigger when users click on share. It would be evil if you
> help social media to spy on normal freedos website visitors
> by embedding something which phones home.
>
> Definitely! I found that you can create a "share to Facebook" link with
this:
https://www.facebook.com/sharer.php?u=${URL}

And "share to Twitter" with this:
https://twitter.com/intent/tweet?url=${URL}&text=FreeDOS%20FDISK%201%2e3%2e2&hashtags=freedos

And "share to LinkedIn" with this:
https://www.linkedin.com/shareArticle?mini=tre&url=${URL}&title=&summary=FreeDOS%20FDISK%201%2e3%2e2&source=FreeDOS

...where *${URL}* is an encoded URL.

No Javascript or "phone home" required. :-)


Jim
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Re: [Freedos-user] Updates to the FreeDOS website?

[Eric Auer]

Hi Jim,

> *2. Make it easy to share stuff*
> Sometimes it would be nice to share a news item with Twitter or other
> social media. I'm working on an update to the News system that will provide
> "share" buttons to share a news item on Twitter, Facebook, and LinkedIn.
> I'd also like to include Reddit.

Please make sure to use the type of share links which only
trigger when users click on share. It would be evil if you
help social media to spy on normal freedos website visitors
by embedding something which phones home.

Thanks! Eric

PS: It would be nice if the LSM list would be linked directly
from the front page in addition to being linked from "nearby".



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Re: [Freedos-user] Updates to the FreeDOS website?

[Dale E Sterner]

If you update your website; make sure you keep it open to
old computers like mine. Update tend to lock out old
computers like mine.

cheers
DS


On Sun, 24 Jan 2021 16:52:51 -0600 Jim Hall  writes:
> Hi everyone
> 
> I'm thinking about making a few changes to the FreeDOS website. But 
> I don't
> want this to be "just another makeover" that makes things pretty. 
> Instead,
> I'm looking for what you will find useful.
> 
> I'm thinking of a few things already:
> 
> *1. Update the wiki*
> The wiki is arguably part of the FreeDOS website, and people go 
> there if
> they can't find the information they are looking for on the rest of 
> the
> site. It seems most people use the website to download FreeDOS, 
> check the
> latest news, find links, and get general information. But if they 
> are
> looking for a "how-to" or other documentation, they look to the wiki 
> for
> that.
> 
> As I mentioned in the get-together today, the wiki is out of date. 
> The wiki
> started as docs we kept in the SourceForge site-wide wiki. When SF 
> stopped
> running a site-wide wiki, they gave all projects an export of their 
> data
> and instructions for how to set up their own MediaWiki. I don't know
> MediaWiki, but I was able to follow the instructions to set up the 
> wiki we
> have now.
> 
> The setup works, but it's really hard for me to do basic "admin" 
> things
> like add new editors. So I need to update that.
> 
> An updated wiki will make it easier to provide up-to-date 
> documentation and
> "how-to" instructions.
> 
> *2. Make it easy to share stuff*
> Sometimes it would be nice to share a news item with Twitter or 
> other
> social media. I'm working on an update to the News system that will 
> provide
> "share" buttons to share a news item on Twitter, Facebook, and 
> LinkedIn.
> I'd also like to include Reddit.
> 
> As a bonus, this update also makes this easier to manage on the 
> back-end.
> 
> *3. Make the front page more welcoming*
> The front page is a quick "landing page" for people to learn about 
> FreeDOS.
> It's not bad, but could be better. I'm planning to embed the latest 
> FreeDOS
> video on the front, since the videos are about *things you can do 
> with
> FreeDOS* or *showing off neat features in FreeDOS*, so I think the 
> video
> will help. I'll also make the screenshots smaller so they don't take 
> up so
> much of the screen.
> 
> I also want to make it easier to start downloading FreeDOS right 
> from the
> front page. I'm not sure yet how I'll do that, but I'm thinking 
> about
> borrowing from the https://getfedora.org/ front page, where they 
> have a
> small info box about each "spin" of the Fedora distro, and a 
> "Download Now"
> button that brings you to a separate page where you actually 
> download
> Fedora. What do you think?
> 
> BTW, you can already access the front page as 
> https://www.freedos.org/ or
> http://www.freedos.org/ or https://freedos.org/ or 
> http://freedos.org/
> 
> 
> Let me know what you think will make the website easier to use. I'll 
> plan
> to tackle this in February or March, with plans to deploy in March 
> or April.
> 
> 
> Jim


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Re: [Freedos-user] Updates to the FreeDOS website?

[Robert Riebisch]

Hi Jim,

> Let me know what you think will make the website easier to use. I'll
> plan to tackle this in February or March, with plans to deploy in March
> or April.

Sounds good to me.

Just keep an eye on bandwidth for the front page. Not everyone has VDSL
or a leased line. ;-)

Cheers,
Robert
-- 
  +++ BTTR Software +++
 Home page: https://www.bttr-software.de/
DOS ain't dead: https://www.bttr-software.de/forum/


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Re: [Freedos-user] Updates to the FreeDOS website?

[Bryan Kilgallin]

G'day Jim:

It seems most people use the website to download FreeDOS, check the 
latest news, find links, and get general information.


All I use that home page for, is getting the BlueJeans meeting info just 
before monthly meetings.


--
members.iinet.net.au/~kilgallin/



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[Freedos-user] Updates to the FreeDOS website?

[Jim Hall]

Hi everyone

I'm thinking about making a few changes to the FreeDOS website. But I don't
want this to be "just another makeover" that makes things pretty. Instead,
I'm looking for what you will find useful.

I'm thinking of a few things already:

*1. Update the wiki*
The wiki is arguably part of the FreeDOS website, and people go there if
they can't find the information they are looking for on the rest of the
site. It seems most people use the website to download FreeDOS, check the
latest news, find links, and get general information. But if they are
looking for a "how-to" or other documentation, they look to the wiki for
that.

As I mentioned in the get-together today, the wiki is out of date. The wiki
started as docs we kept in the SourceForge site-wide wiki. When SF stopped
running a site-wide wiki, they gave all projects an export of their data
and instructions for how to set up their own MediaWiki. I don't know
MediaWiki, but I was able to follow the instructions to set up the wiki we
have now.

The setup works, but it's really hard for me to do basic "admin" things
like add new editors. So I need to update that.

An updated wiki will make it easier to provide up-to-date documentation and
"how-to" instructions.

*2. Make it easy to share stuff*
Sometimes it would be nice to share a news item with Twitter or other
social media. I'm working on an update to the News system that will provide
"share" buttons to share a news item on Twitter, Facebook, and LinkedIn.
I'd also like to include Reddit.

As a bonus, this update also makes this easier to manage on the back-end.

*3. Make the front page more welcoming*
The front page is a quick "landing page" for people to learn about FreeDOS.
It's not bad, but could be better. I'm planning to embed the latest FreeDOS
video on the front, since the videos are about *things you can do with
FreeDOS* or *showing off neat features in FreeDOS*, so I think the video
will help. I'll also make the screenshots smaller so they don't take up so
much of the screen.

I also want to make it easier to start downloading FreeDOS right from the
front page. I'm not sure yet how I'll do that, but I'm thinking about
borrowing from the https://getfedora.org/ front page, where they have a
small info box about each "spin" of the Fedora distro, and a "Download Now"
button that brings you to a separate page where you actually download
Fedora. What do you think?

BTW, you can already access the front page as https://www.freedos.org/ or
http://www.freedos.org/ or https://freedos.org/ or http://freedos.org/


Let me know what you think will make the website easier to use. I'll plan
to tackle this in February or March, with plans to deploy in March or April.


Jim
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